Got my Commander, so freakin happy :)

[loki]

Yes it's in my hands, and I'm very impressed. If you can get over the look of the center pivot design without running away screaming it's a honey of a bow. Ted, owner of the proshop here was turned off of it by the look, but impressed by the shot, and sound (or lack of it). Had it next to a Browning, and a PSE so far and it made them seem loud :).

80% let off is spoiled, and gives the impression that this thing is kicking like a mule. :lol: Love it.

Now, I think my peep is positioned correctly by the one eye test. However it's not rotating correctly, it's probably rotated 1/8" off to the right at full draw. To correct this I rotate it from the bottom to the left, and it stays aligned perfectly for a few shots, but inevitably moves back to the right. The peep is tied into the string and doesn't use tubing or a string tie in system (didn't want the 10 - 15 FPS reduction), so it has to rotate into position by itself. I tried the obvious of rotating it once fully to the left and got it performing better (like I said it stays aligned for a few shots now), but I dislike having to rotate it every 5 shots or so. Any suggestions?

Also I set my Whisker Biscut to be right behind the string position for straight arrow release, but have been told by Ted that this is not the correct position. I'm shooting good enough groups so far (can get better of course) and like the position. I'd like to know, is he right, and the position of the biscuit should be 1/2" away from your bow hand, weither it's behind the string or not? It's almost there for my current setup, but could go out more to the left, which then would no longer be aligned with my string.

[Bow Walker]

If the bow is that new, chances are that you need to shoot the strings "in"....just a matter of anywhere from 100 - 300 shots to settle a new string/cable set.

After that it's a matter of a few strands moved either to the right or the left. But make sure the string is settled in before attempting any other adjustments.

[loki]

Now that was fast, do you sleep? :lol: In fact that was so fast a reply I didn't finish my editing, so what's your thought on the whisker biscut question?

Yes the bow is new, so I'll just cycle it 300 times or so and see if it's still giving the same behaviour. Shouldn't take long at all...

Thanks for the help.

[Bow Walker]

I'm the wrong guy to ask about Whisker Biscuits. I don't like them and never have...sorry.

My rest of choice is the APA Safari Twister. I've tried just about every different type - except the Bickky - just not really impressed by it.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Safari_Twister.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=4259&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=529)

[loki]

So pretty...

The two reasons I avoided a drop away were;

1: I like the thought of full capture. Walk around all day and not worrying about arrow bounce in the rest. Also I have read in Petersons Bowhunting May/June issue that full capture rests help to avoid (or eliminate) arrow shaking in the rest, and windsheer at point of shot.

2: I have heard that drop away rests have a certain amount of noise to them, at draw, and release. Currently the sound of my bow is the arrow leaving the string, and the sound of arrow flight, and not much else.

Of course after I went with the biscuit it was pointed out to me that finger shooters may bring the arrow into the whiskers if they're not smooth with draw. This has never happened to me so far as I try to draw smoothly, and release relaxed.

So then for my question, remove the words Whisker Biscut then. Think of my question as a general rest question. Should the rest be set right behind, nearly parallell, the string?

[Bow Walker]

So pretty...

The two reasons I avoided a drop away were;

1: I like the thought of full capture. Walk around all day and not worrying about arrow bounce in the rest. Also I have read in Petersons Bowhunting May/June issue that full capture rests help to avoid (or eliminate) arrow shaking in the rest, and windsheer at point of shot.

2: I have heard that drop away rests have a certain amount of noise to them, at draw, and release. Currently the sound of my bow is the arrow leaving the string, and the sound of arrow flight, and not much else.

Of course after I went with the biscuit it was pointed out to me that finger shooters may bring the arrow into the whiskers if they're not smooth with draw. This has never happened to me so far as I try to draw smoothly, and release relaxed.

So then for my question, remove the words Whisker Biscut then. Think of my question as a general rest question. Should the rest be set right behind, nearly parallell, the string?

Are you shooting a release or fingers? Very few drop-aways are suitable to finger shooting. So that takes care of that.

If you're shooting with fingers,the movement of the arrow at the shot relase is such that it puts a lot of side-ways pressure on the Biscuit which could impact your arrow flight and/or accuracy. This is called "archers paradox".

But - in answer to your points.........and these are "Just One Man's Opinion".....as always:
1. If it is that windy that wind shear is a problem at the shot - then whomever is shooting the bow at an animal has no business in releasing the arrow.

2. You're right in that some drop-aways do have a bit of noise to them...an example would be the Trophy Taker rests. I've tried the Shakey Hunter and got rid of it for just that reason. I went back to my APA, which is very quiet.

The only area that I padded on my APA was where the string clamp hits the stop when the rest drops away. Otherwise it is silent. Also - notice that it is of the "full capture" variety.

[loki]

I'm shooting fingers. I tried a release to start but found it easier to instinctive shoot with my fingers, just relax my hand as the pin floats over the target. I had a really hard time with the trigger squeeze and pin float technique.


This is called "archers paradox".
Which if I release relaxed I should remove some, or most of the problem, correct? I thought most of this was caused by "letting go" and causing inconsistency at shot. Rather than just relaxing the draw hand, and allowing the draw pressure to do the work of release. So then if I notice any side arrow flight i'm looking at having to buy one of those rests with the white moving button on the side?

So perhaps I have to move the rest off to the side of the string to work with the archers paradox?


But - in answer to your points.........and these are "Just One Man's Opinion".....as always:
1. If it is that windy that wind shear is a problem at the shot - then whomever is shooting the bow at an animal has no business in releasing the arrow.

Very good point. Mainly I was repeating what I read, what concerned me was the bouncing around issue. I had some problems with my old (antique) bow/rest with the odd arrow bouncing on the rest during draw, and at full draw. Most of the issue was me, I had to learn to pull a smooth draw, but after I got confident enough and still had the odd issue I figured to heck with it and looked at full capture for this bow.

[willyqbc]

Which if I release relaxed I should remove some, or most of the problem, correct?

Sorry but the fact of thye matter is that the BEST finger shooters in the world (olympic level recurvers) all use some form of side pressure rest. Shooting the set-up you are now, you are making things more difficult on yourself. I think if you invested in a decent side pressure rest you would see immediate and dramatic results.

Just my opinion
Chris

[Bow Walker]

Chris is right. When using fingers to release, you have got to have a rest that exerts and absorbs side pressure at the shot. This is because of archers paradox - which cannot be gotten rid of no matter what.

Archers paradox is the term used for the oscillation or bending of the shaft of the arrow as the string exerts force to overcome the inertia of the
arrow. In finger shooting this results in a sideways oscillation of the shaft.

The arrow actually bends left (sideways) from a right hand shooter and then flexes back, passing centerline, and bends to the right, all as the arrow moves forward past the riser of the bow - then this oscillation diminishes and settles down into forward flight. The finger shooters' rest is designed to absorb this flexing and help the arrow achieve stable flight.

When using a mechanical release (whether off the string or from a D-loop) this flexing and bending is in a different direction - usually upward and downward. Hence the need for different types of arrow rests to help stabilize this oscillation and get the arrow moving in its parabolic arc as soon as possible.

Clear as mud??

Check out some of Cavalier's line of rests for finger shooters. Even APA (Canadian company) has a rest design for fingers - which happens to be a capture rest as well. http://www.apaarchery.com/rests_uf.html Check them out via the link.

They can be purchased thru http://www.ca.nationalarcherysupply.com/

I'm not trying to push them or anything like that - I just believe in APA products, and they solve your problem of arrow containment.

[Bow Walker]

loki..........check this forum out. It should give you some help/ideas.....
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=115

good luck.

[jessbennett]

fingers and bisquits do not play well together.....:lol:
they dont comingle......
no touchy touchy..........
um i dunno how else to put it.....:)


cavalier makes some great rests........ i think i have a few kickin around here somewhere.......
you need a side pressure rest as chris said. accuracy and arrow flight will dramatically improve..... if you are going to use your bow for hunting, you need the best arrowflight possible and also the most accurate bow possible...8)

[pupper]

sorry guys, I am at a loss here. What is the benefit to the commander?

It seems to me IMHO that the gaurdian is superior in most ways to the commander.

The commander is heavier, slower, and longer than the guardian and has less kinetic energy, but looks the same.


Why does the commander exist?

why would anyone buy this over the gaurdian?

Justin

[Kirby]

Longer ATA would make it ok to shoot with fingers, longer brace hight means its slightly more forgiving.
Also you can get a longer draw length with the Commander.

Kirby

[Bow Walker]

Longer A 2 A also makes for a more stable bow at full draw. Kirby's point about the Commander being better for finger shooters is probably the best reason though.....it means less (or no) finger pinch at full draw.

[pupper]

OK I got you, thanks.

I was wondering what the advantage would be of having a longer ATA.

[The Hermit]

Try a different style of release. I use the Caliper 44 and it is SO smooth... and the Wisker Bisket works like a hot damn for me too. it is VERY quiet and the arrow simply does not fall away.

[loki]

Check out some of Cavalier's line of rests for finger shooters. Even APA (Canadian company) has a rest design for fingers - which happens to be a capture rest as well. http://www.apaarchery.com/rests_uf.html Check them out via the link.
Sold, so do you get a commission ;) ? Forgive the question, but how does that capture the arrow, does it hold it with side tension? Really the only thing that was holding me back was full capture, as I prefer, or at least would like the option of stalk hunting. For me, anything that isn't a capture rest allows the arrow to bounce or pivot while on the move, sometimes making sound comparable to a twig snap :neutral:.

Sorry Jess, checked the Cavalier rests and none are capture. Thanks for the advice though.

So how's the sound of these rests upon release? Minimal noise? Comparable to the nothing I'm getting from biscuit noise :lol:?

So then is smaller diameter carbon arrows going to become a problem? How about vane clearance? Just got my gold tips...


sorry guys, I am at a loss here. What is the benefit to the commander?
As said, longer A2A for finger pinch (I'm a finger release shooter) and greater stability at draw. The FPS and kinetic energy difference is minimal, and the bow performs like the Guardian; fast and quiet. Also, 0.3 extra pounds is a minimal difference. Don't forget when shooting close to, or over 300 FPS, the new bows are spoiled. Recurvers make their kills at 180 FPS or less :shock:.

[jethrobuddy]

I like the commander also. I need the longer draw length. Is it really as quiet as they advertise? What did you pay for the bow before taxes, if you don't mind me asking? Why did you go with the longer ATA?

[Bow Walker]

Sold, so do you get a commission :wink: ? Forgive the question, but how does that capture the arrow, does it hold it with side tension? Really the only thing that was holding me back was full capture, as I prefer, or at least would like the option of stalk hunting. For me, anything that isn't a capture rest allows the arrow to bounce or pivot while on the move, sometimes making sound comparable to a twig snap :neutral:.

No, I don't get anything from them - just the satisfaction of using a rest that works 100% (for me).

I'd suggest contacting APA with your questions about rests designed for finger shooters. They would be able to answer far more intelligently than I.

As to quietness of the rest - I don't hear it at all, so it's hard to gauge.

[loki]

Is it really as quiet as they advertise?
Yes. Shooting my current setup I hear the slight click of my arrow leaving the string, and that's pretty well it. I've heard louder rubber bands, in fact the best I can describe the sound is a muffled rubber band.


Why did you go with the longer ATA?
I shoot finger release. The longer A2A avoids finger pinch, a longer brace height makes it more forgiving, and most of all the bow fits me :wink: . I find that for finger release a longer A2A allows you to fire the Binary Cams with less of a whipping sensation at shot, and feels more like the draw/release of a wheel axle with let off. Much more of a natural feeling.


I'd suggest contacting APA with your questions about rests designed for finger shooters. They would be able to answer far more intelligently than I.
Will do.

[jethrobuddy]

And the cost of the bow?

[Bow Walker]

And the cost of the bow?
Well worth it...........:lol: