so much for 4pt mulie season reg 4

[sparky300winmag]

So much for four point mulie season. my son and i spent the last three days hunting mulies in reg 4. In one day we saw around 100 mulies. At least 2 doz were bucks and most were with does. Not one 4 pt the whole 3 days. We saw 4 or 5 huge 3 pointers and that was it. We never saw any evidence of anyone else in the 4 areas we went to of anyone else bagging a 4 point either. With all those does you woulda figured even a small 4 pt would be around.Ya i guess i'm complaining....now onto whitetails.

[Huntfarm2]

The damn 3 point genetic is running rampant now! Close any buck and open 3 point or better for the whole season. Save them 2 points that will generally turn into a 4 point the following season, imagine how many decent bucks that will be running around. The meat hunters will complain but in a couple seasons bam the meat guys will
be takin mulies with more meat on em

[BushBuck]

Opening for 3 point or better adds to this problem......only gunna be 2 points left:-?

[OutWest]

And the negative impacts of a 4pt muley season are starting to be felt.

[coach]

Dear wildlife managers,

Please change regulations to make me a better hunter.

sincerely,

Mr Social Management

[OutWest]

Good lesson here. 4pt seasons do not make more deer. 4pt seasons do not make bigger bucks.

[Weatherby Fan]

Coach can you get them to grow more four points to please !

[Everett]

Yup went out for two days of hunting mulies recently saw over a hundred mule deer no 4 points though saw 21 2 points so the future looks good. In 3 hours this afternoon saw 32 deer 7 bucks no mature bucks though.

[Husky7mm]

And the negative impacts of a 4pt muley season are starting to be felt.
Hmmm? Should mean negative impacts of 6 point bulls and tri palm moose should be felt too, yet every year many are still successful. Genes come from both sides, and genes are present from birth. I have personally witness 2 point mulies and spike elk breading, so they can pass on their genes before they are even legal to shoot. Over harvest and access is the problem.

[OutWest]

Hmmm? Should mean negative impacts of 6 point bulls and tri palm moose should be felt too, yet every year many are still successful. Genes come from both sides, and genes are present from birth. I have personally witness 2 point mulies and spike elk breading, so they can pass on their genes before they are even legal to shoot. Over harvest and access is the problem.

Have you ever taken in anything GG and others have ever schooled you on? It appears not...

[Husky7mm]

Have you ever taken in anything GG and others have ever schooled you on? It appears not...

GG is great, however he visits the Ek albeit a few weeks of the year, and where are his credentials for the expert schooling?

[604redneck]

Weird i saw 12 4 points the day i shot mine. But i also spent the last 3 days only looking at 3 points. Luck of the draw i guess

[Sofa King]

the 4s are still around.
they're just wiser and are staying hidden.

[OutWest]

GG is great, however he visits the Ek albeit a few weeks of the year, and where are his credentials for the expert schooling?

Interesting that the region with the most restrictive mule deer seasons and most road closures in the Province has mule deer still in the shitter. Your 4 point seasons are sure getting it done, Husky!!

[Logan]

I Saw a nice 4 point in a farmers field just outside of Falkland today, and I saw another one in Armstrong last week. Both were big, both were right next to the highway lol.

[finngun]

Dear wildlife managers,

Please change regulations to make me a better hunter.

sincerely,

Mr Social Management

yep...learn from europe,,some countries,,no counting points AT ALL just buck or anterless,,if that works there,,,
why not here ..too simple..eh?
:?:

[Husky7mm]

Interesting that the region with the most restrictive mule deer seasons and most road closures in the Province has mule deer still in the shitter. Your 4 point seasons are sure getting it done, Husky!!

This problem has nothing to do with the 4 piont season other than thats the cut off line. If it was 3 point or better it would be hard to find 3 pointers in the EK.... Overharvest.

"There once was a little mule deer buck but this year he grew a small 4 point rack and as soon as he was seen he was shot" the end .....

[hunter1947]

This problem has nothing to do with the 4 piont season other than thats the cut off line. If it was 3 point or better it would be hard to find 3 pointers in the EK.... Overharvest.

"There once was a little mule deer buck but this year he grew a small 4 point rack and as soon as he was seen he was shot" the end .....

I agree you hit the nail dead cent on your thoughts

[hunter1947]

Mismanagement and predator problems hi numbers are the problems with low numbers of mule deer in any region I think I would feel bad within myself if I did shoot a mule deer in region 4..

[jacksondog]

4 point season has been going for only 2 years, to early to see results if it's going to work.

[MB_Boy]

Dear wildlife managers,

Please change regulations to make me a better hunter.

sincerely,

Mr Social Management



Ain't that the truth. 8-):wink::lol:

[hunter1947]

4 point season has been going for only 2 years, to early to see results if it's going to work.


Management have to get the predators under control bottom line they can't manage on one side and not do anything with the predator problem in order to make a difference in numbers..

[g_worsnop]

Maybe they should make it a little easier on a guy to trap to help keep them predators in check

[speycaster]

Would that predator control include guys in camo with rifles? Those are the most common predator that I see in the boundary, plus most of them are running down their prey with UTVs, ATVs and 4X4 trucks. Maybe no vehicles beyond designated campsites during hunting season would help, hike in and pack out would help the four point population. I glassed three 4X4 mulies and one 5X4 this year, not one of them was anywhere near where a vehicle of any kind could get to them.The things that you see when using a 60 power spotting scope looking at land that is virtually inaccessible without a three or four hour hike.

[budismyhorse]

Ask the local biologists.... The any buck season changed absolutely nothing when it came to the decline of our mule deer in R4.

The large populations of cougars and wolves pretty much destroyed them. Throw in highway collisions and our female portion of the population took a big punch (SFA to do with access or over harvest by hunters..... We don't kill does).

after 4-5 years of intense cougar harvest there are starting to be more females around....but it's going to take a few years for the number of 4 pts to get up high enough where every top dick and Harry can drive around and see them from the road again. ..... Because let's be honest that's what people want.

if you want a nice 4 pt... They are out there NOW.... A guy just has to hunt hard and differently for them.

[hunter1947]

Would that predator control include guys in camo with rifles? Those are the most common predator that I see in the boundary, plus most of them are running down their prey with UTVs, ATVs and 4X4 trucks. Maybe no vehicles beyond designated campsites during hunting season would help, hike in and pack out would help the four point population. I glassed three 4X4 mulies and one 5X4 this year, not one of them was anywhere near where a vehicle of any kind could get to them.The things that you see when using a 60 power spotting scope looking at land that is virtually inaccessible without a three or four hour hike.


I agree its one big circle on all that's why the mule deer numbers are where they are right now..

[hunter1947]

Ask the local biologists.... The any buck season changed absolutely nothing when it came to the decline of our mule deer in R4.

The large populations of cougars and wolves pretty much destroyed them. Throw in highway collisions and our female portion of the population took a big punch (SFA to do with access or over harvest by hunters..... We don't kill does).

after 4-5 years of intense cougar harvest there are starting to be more females around....but it's going to take a few years for the number of 4 pts to get up high enough where every top dick and Harry can drive around and see them from the road again. ..... Because let's be honest that's what people want.

if you want a nice 4 pt... They are out there NOW.... A guy just has to hunt hard and differently for them.


For sure the dinky small mule bucks were taken the big mossy bucks were hiding out in no man's land high up harder to get at..

[jacksondog]

Not sure predator control is the answer, we already have liberal seasons on Coyote and Wolf, and this year I seen more registered trap line signs than ever before. This year I have started to get mule deer coming to my well established game cams for the first time ever. In the areas I hunt mule deer are making a comeback in a big way, but I do agree 4 points are hard to come by. I still think we need to give it another couple years before we rule out the 4 point season a failure. Wayne(Hunter1947) I'm sure you have seen an increase in mule deer numbers in the area we hunt as well???

[Cami]

If we can only shoot 4pt what do they think gonna happen....
U take out that genetic line like with the elephants - smaller tusk or no tusks stay alive longer ...
Would be nice if it would change to a age system.

[hunter1947]

Not sure predator control is the answer, we already have liberal seasons on Coyote and Wolf, and this year I seen more registered trap line signs than ever before. This year I have started to get mule deer coming to my well established game cams for the first time ever. In the areas I hunt mule deer are making a comeback in a big way, but I do agree 4 points are hard to come by. I still think we need to give it another couple years before we rule out the 4 point season a failure. Wayne(Hunter1947) I'm sure you have seen an increase in mule deer numbers in the area we hunt as well???

Yes you have this right I am seeing more mule deer this year in the area I have hunted for many years then I have seen in other years ,,I have saw mule deer in places I have never seen them before there would be more mule deer around if the wolf population was under control have been awake many times in my camp with packs calling back and forth this year

[coach]

So much for four point mulie season. my son and i spent the last three days hunting mulies in reg 4. In one day we saw around 100 mulies. At least 2 doz were bucks and most were with does.


This year I have started to get mule deer coming to my well established game cams for the first time ever.

I still think we need to give it another couple years before we rule out the 4 point season a failure.

Sounds like (anacdotally anyway) there is some real success going on with regard to mule deer populations rebounding. Mild winters, Habitat work, predator control, reduction of (or stabilizing) wt populations are all likely contributing factors - along with regulations that don't allow harvest of spikes, deuces or three points. People who truly care about mule deer should be happy.

Hunters who thought that by only killing four points, there'd be more four points at the end of the season are going to look at it as a failure. To those guys - you've been told over and over and over again that 4 point APR's wont produce bigger bucks. Instead, this "management" strategy pretty much guarantees very few mule deer bucks will reach middle age.

Note: I'm not picking on you at all jacksondog - sounds like you have a good knowledge of the situation in your area.

[kebes]

Not sure predator control is the answer, we already have liberal seasons on Coyote and Wolf, and this year I seen more registered trap line signs than ever before. This year I have started to get mule deer coming to my well established game cams for the first time ever. In the areas I hunt mule deer are making a comeback in a big way, but I do agree 4 points are hard to come by. I still think we need to give it another couple years before we rule out the 4 point season a failure. Wayne(Hunter1947) I'm sure you have seen an increase in mule deer numbers in the area we hunt as well???

Liberal coyote and wolf seasons isn't predator control.

[RadHimself]

sad to say it, but changing the season regs isn't going to make deer wander onto the road for you.

after a 6yr hiatus from hunting in the okanagon, and hunting in my old stomping grounds the last 3 seasons im thuroughly disgusted by the amount of people that whine and cry, yet wont even get out of their truck and walk.

if you dont want to work for it, and you dont want to "hunt" as the term is implied... safeway sells lots of meat, actually even that might be too much work for you...

may as well go to wendy's or burger king and have it cooked for you too

[Husky7mm]

Ask the local biologists.... The any buck season changed absolutely nothing when it came to the decline of our mule deer in R4.

The large populations of cougars and wolves pretty much destroyed them. Throw in highway collisions and our female portion of the population took a big punch (SFA to do with access or over harvest by hunters..... We don't kill does).

after 4-5 years of intense cougar harvest there are starting to be more females around....but it's going to take a few years for the number of 4 pts to get up high enough where every top dick and Harry can drive around and see them from the road again. ..... Because let's be honest that's what people want.

if you want a nice 4 pt... They are out there NOW.... A guy just has to hunt hard and differently for them.

For sure total population has declined, less bucks in general and less does making more bucks. Funny how mulies are in such a high demand ( and hot topic) in the EK, yet they are only about 3% iirc of the provinces mule deer population.

[budismyhorse]

Husky.... I'll email you the harvest stats for the east and west koots current to 2013 if you don't already have em.

[coach]

Would be nice if it would change to a age system.

Doesn't even work well with sheep - that are easier to age. How many hunters coukd actually age mule deer in the field? I'll be the first to admit that I couldn't do it accurately.

[bigneily]

4 point season has been going for only 2 years, to early to see results if it's going to work.

The 4 point season has been going a lot more than 2 years .

[hunter1947]

If I could I would kill every wolf I seen ,,no kidding there the top of the food chain the wolves are a big reason why the numbers of mule deer decline in lots of regions I know there are big numbers of wolves in the region I hunt never seen a wolf or heard one call in my hunting area 15 years ago when shed hunting I come across lots of mule deer kills from cats and wolves..

[beeugle]

you wanna see 4 pints and bigger... drive by my house, I'll wake them up for you ... they're our lawn ornaments.. all the big boys live in city limits lol......!

[finngun]

And every 100 just born killed bambi ...60 of them is killed by bear..bear population is very strong..i think too strong.f.g

[jacksondog]

The 4 point season has been going a lot more than 2 years .
Check your regs, the Synopsis covering 2012 to 2014 had an any buck season for the month of October. The removal of that season has been the basis for most peoples argument in this forum as it was the only change to the current synopsis . Nov-1st to 10th has been 4 point or better for some time. I'm referring to the October season moving to 4 point or better has only been going for 2 years.

[jacksondog]

I've read the articles on the 4 point season and the fact that these experts feel this season will not improve 4 point numbers but in my opinion it has worked for the 6 point elk season, how does everyone feel the 6 point season has or has not improved the overall 6 point bull elk numbers. I'm indifferent to this 4 point season as of now but all I'm saying is lets give it some time and let the numbers prove if its a success or not. Getting rid of the October any buck season for only 2 years is not enough time to determine if this season will improve 4 point numbers.

[Caribou_lou]

If I'm reading the regs properly for region 4, your Muley season ends Nov 10th?

[kebes]

This discussion is recycled in some form or another every year. Antler restrictions don't make more animals; it's a social management tool implemented with the hope of creating more trophy animals. Whether or not it's working is highly debatable.

[Logan]

So I am pretty new to hunting, but some friends and I were discussing possible solutions to over hunting an declining populations. We thought maybe a system akin to an old farming method called fallow field farming might help. Fallow field means that farmers would cycle their crops and not use every possible plot of land to farm every year. By leaving some plots without being used for a season or two then that dirt would regain its nutrients and produce a more abundant crop when it was harvested. So, we figured that if certain areas were made off-limits for hunting for a year or two at a time, and they cycled through these areas, then every few years a region would open up that had time for the populations to grow without threat from hunters. I am by no means a wildlife biologist, but I feel like this could be a workable solution? correct me if i'm wrong lol and i'm sure many people would not be happy with such legislation.

[Fisher-Dude]

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the
average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age
classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the
smaller-antlered young bucks.

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low
buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively
few, or no, additional fawns.

[Weatherby Fan]

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the
average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age
classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the
smaller-antlered young bucks.

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low
buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively
few, or no, additional fawns.

Quit making sense FD were not having any of this silly BS

[Fisher-Dude]

Quit making sense FD were not having any of this silly BS

You're right. Besides, what would a committee of the best mule deer biologists from Western North America know about mule deer?

[Elkchaser]

Very limited recent experience (this just ended season) with EK md chasing. Compared to my hunting here from 1995-2002 though I definitely seen fewer bucks in general this year and only big boys seen were in city limits. That said, I didn't do any alpine md hunts this fall - didn't have to before. Going high next year though. One thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread that actually had me thinking hopefully for 4 point this November was how many guys told me their kids took decent 'any' bucks in the youth season. I'm no biologist, but maybe that season should perhaps be restricted for some zone 4 mu's and let the results after 2-3 years decide if it worked??? Don't get me wrong, I have 3 boys and oldest turns 9 soon so this would affect my family. But, if something can help with getting us to healthier big buck numbers I'd be supportive. Definitely get the wolf thing too - seen some tracks recently of a couple 8-10 animal packs, can't imagine how much protein they go through. Who knows though, as another poster said, only been 2 years since GOS any buck, and if we have another decent winter or two this issue might resolve itself. Back to my muley tag soup...

[Weatherby Fan]

Quit making sense FD were not having any of this silly BS


You're right. Besides, what would a committee of the best mule deer biologists from Western North America know about mule deer?

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j466/WeatherbyFan65/crying_zps0eae2c8b.gif (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/WeatherbyFan65/media/crying_zps0eae2c8b.gif.html) Look FD I just want huge 4 pts everywhere, and no hunters hunting in my region !

[Fisher-Dude]

Very limited recent experience (this just ended season) with EK md chasing. Compared to my hunting here from 1995-2002 though I definitely seen fewer bucks in general this year and only big boys seen were in city limits. That said, I didn't do any alpine md hunts this fall - didn't have to before. Going high next year though. One thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread that actually had me thinking hopefully for 4 point this November was how many guys told me their kids took decent 'any' bucks in the youth season. I'm no biologist, but maybe that season should perhaps be restricted for some zone 4 mu's and let the results after 2-3 years decide if it worked??? Don't get me wrong, I have 3 boys and oldest turns 9 soon so this would affect my family. But, if something can help with getting us to healthier big buck numbers I'd be supportive. Definitely get the wolf thing too - seen some tracks recently of a couple 8-10 animal packs, can't imagine how much protein they go through. Who knows though, as another poster said, only been 2 years since GOS any buck, and if we have another decent winter or two this issue might resolve itself. Back to my muley tag soup...

What does "getting us to healthier big buck numbers" have to do with mule deer management?

Do you want what's best for mule deer, or do you want to socially manage herds for "big" bucks?

[coach]

What does "getting us to healthier big buck numbers" have to do with mule deer management?

Do you want what's best for mule deer, or do you want to socially manage herds for "big" bucks?

round and round...

[Elkchaser]

What do I want - population or big bucks. Simple answer is both. I didn't see many (probably about 2/50) dry does last week, and they probably lost those to predators if I had to guess. Places where I expected to see md I did. Not in significant/historic numbers as I used to see them, but there none the less. What I didn't see which surprised me was a few 4-8 doe/fawn herds without any buck around them and I watched these for extended periods. Obviously bucks were around last year - I think that's how fawns are made, but feel free to clarify if I'm wrong. I thought it pretty weird to see so many unaccompanied does in the last week of the season. Just my 2 cents, I'm not solving anything here, just thought I might add something to the conversation.

[Fisher-Dude]

So only 4% dry does in your sample.

Seems like someone is impregnating the 96% with fawns.

Yet there's a bitch-on about buck numbers?

[Spy]

Spread the pressure around and have a any buck season & a rut closure ! That should give everyone a chance to hunt whatever buck they want and the biggest baddest most deserving bucks a chance to breed in peace ! ;-)

[okas]

they do not know why they get shot and when 3 becomes 4 they are dead so no story to tell the 3 points. When this 4 point rule came in the bucks are not as spooky as before .

[.264winmag]

Ended yesterday, caught my biggest mulie for myself this morning at 70yds in the timber. Go figure. Been chasing for two years, third time lucky I hope! Hunted 10 days straight this year, sigh...

[okas]

What do I want - population or big bucks. Simple answer is both. I didn't see many (probably about 2/50) dry does last week, and they probably lost those to predators if I had to guess. Places where I expected to see md I did. Not in significant/historic numbers as I used to see them, but there none the less. What I didn't see which surprised me was a few 4-8 doe/fawn herds without any buck around them and I watched these for extended periods. Obviously bucks were around last year - I think that's how fawns are made, but feel free to clarify if I'm wrong. I thought it pretty weird to see so many unaccompanied does in the last week of the season. Just my 2 cents, I'm not solving anything here, just thought I might add something to the conversation. like the moose saw 7 cows no calves and the bull end of Sept. no smelly and first week Oct. 2 bulls sleeping 10 yards apart.

[The Hermit]

You guys rifle guys make me laugh! Implement a major wolf and bear cull and then make the whole Province archery only any buck/bull all season for five years! Now we're talking lots of different head gear on deer, moose, and elk! Hunt Hard, Hunt Traditional LOL

[Spy]

You guys rifle guys make me laugh! Implement a major wolf and bear cull and then make the whole Province archery only any buck/bull all season for five years! Now we're talking lots of different head gear on deer, moose, and elk! Hunt Hard, Hunt Traditional LOL
Agreed :-) I also used to use a rifle but then I learnt to hunt lol ;-)

[Weatherby Fan]

Agreed :-) I also used to use a rifle but then I learnt to hunt lol ;-)

you and the hermit sound like you've been hunting with the dahli lama, oh please wise bow hunters tell us what you've learned holding a bow that you were to slow to learn holding a rifle :?: ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

Spread the pressure around and have a any buck season & a rut closure ! That should give everyone a chance to hunt whatever buck they want and the biggest baddest most deserving bucks a chance to breed in peace ! ;-)

What mule deer science dictates that the "biggest and baddest" bucks should do the breeding?

[Fisher-Dude]

You guys rifle guys make me laugh! Implement a major wolf and bear cull and then make the whole Province archery only any buck/bull all season for five years! Now we're talking lots of different head gear on deer, moose, and elk! Hunt Hard, Hunt Traditional LOL

Social Management 101's poster child.

No agenda here, move along, nothing to see here.

[Boner]

So I am pretty new to hunting, but some friends and I were discussing possible solutions to over hunting an declining populations. We thought maybe a system akin to an old farming method called fallow field farming might help. Fallow field means that farmers would cycle their crops and not use every possible plot of land to farm every year. By leaving some plots without being used for a season or two then that dirt would regain its nutrients and produce a more abundant crop when it was harvested. So, we figured that if certain areas were made off-limits for hunting for a year or two at a time, and they cycled through these areas, then every few years a region would open up that had time for the populations to grow without threat from hunters. I am by no means a wildlife biologist, but I feel like this could be a workable solution? correct me if i'm wrong lol and i'm sure many people would not be happy with such legislation.

On a small scale lots of landowners do that, not intentionally for deer, but if there's no hunting signs up its the same end result. The deer don't camp out there though. They hop fences and move around.

[Islandeer]

Hmmm, does make more 4 pts not 4pts. The any buck season used to close before the majority of the deer come out have a look at the trench it is a mess. Very poor and limited winter range

We shot a cranker and know of many others that were as well

We hunted extremely hard for 10 days mule deer hunting is no gimme

[The Hermit]

You guys rifle guys make me laugh! Implement a major wolf and bear cull and then make the whole Province archery only any buck/bull all season for five years! Now we're talking lots of different head gear on deer, moose, and elk! Hunt Hard, Hunt Traditional LOL


you and the hermit sound like you've been hunting with the dahli lama, oh please wise bow hunters tell us what you've learned holding a bow that you were to slow to learn holding a rifle :?: ;)


Social Management 101's poster child.

No agenda here, move along, nothing to see here.

Hahaha BT=SD ;-)

[coach]

Hahaha BT=SD ;-)

No idea what that means, but a quick perusal of the regs shows it was perfectly legal for you to bait a fisher dude..

[The Hermit]

No idea what that means, but a quick perusal of the regs shows it was perfectly legal for you to bait a fisher dude..

After this year's regulation review the synopsis will include wording around baiting fisher dude... might even be a bounty but I voted against that because it is SO easy to do! Bill Tozer = Shit Disturber

[J_T]

No idea what that means, but a quick perusal of the regs shows it was perfectly legal for you to bait a fisher dude..Well done. It can be hard to find those subtle regulations.

[Spy]

What mule deer science dictates that the "biggest and baddest" bucks should do the breeding?
The science of nature predicts that the strongest healthiest animals get to breed, why **** with it !

[coach]

The science of nature predicts that the strongest healthiest animals get to breed, why **** with it !

In some cases.. In others spikes and deuces get their turn...

[Fisher-Dude]

The science of nature predicts that the strongest healthiest animals get to breed, why **** with it !

Are you telling us that their genetics change with age? That a 7 year old buck has better genes to pass on than a 2 year old?

And, of course, the other half of the genes come from the doe. Should we be growing trophy does because "the science of nature" predicts that they get to breed? Should yearling does not be allowed to breed?

There's so much wrong with a Walt Disney assumption that it's hard to know just where to start. :-?

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. All that is required is a sperm supply which is sufficient at 7 or 8 bucks to 100 does to get 90% pregnancy rates, even though we target 20:100 in BC to be on the safe, conservative side. That's why deer are managed by buck:doe ratios, and not by age class.

[tuner]

Are you telling us that their genetics change with age? That a 7 year old buck has better genes to pass on than a 2 year old?

And, of course, the other half of the genes come from the doe. Should we be growing trophy does because "the science of nature" predicts that they get to breed? Should yearling does not be allowed to breed?

There's so much wrong with a Walt Disney assumption that it's hard to know just where to start. :-?

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. All that is required is a sperm supply which is sufficient at 7 or 8 bucks to 100 does to get 90% pregnancy rates, even though we target 20:100 in BC to be on the safe, conservative side. That's why deer are managed by buck:doe ratios, and not by age class.
I'm positive even an"ecologist" like Assmine would have a hard time arguing with the statement above.

[cruiser]

Are you telling us that their genetics change with age? That a 7 year old buck has better genes to pass on than a 2 year old?

And, of course, the other half of the genes come from the doe. Should we be growing trophy does because "the science of nature" predicts that they get to breed? Should yearling does not be allowed to breed?

There's so much wrong with a Walt Disney assumption that it's hard to know just where to start. :-?

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. All that is required is a sperm supply which is sufficient at 7 or 8 bucks to 100 does to get 90% pregnancy rates, even though we target 20:100 in BC to be on the safe, conservative side. That's why deer are managed by buck:doe ratios, and not by age class.

Their genes don't change with age but their physical traits show as they mature. A doe would preferencially choose the bigger/stronger buck if they are there but will settle on whats available.

[Spy]

OK a 2 year old 2 point and a four year old 4 point fight over a doe which buck is going to win? I did not say that the 2 point doesn't have the genetics to become a trophy 10 point! I said The science of nature predicts that the strongest healthiest animals get to breed !

[Fisher-Dude]

Their genes don't change with age but their physical traits show as they mature. A doe would preferencially choose the bigger/stronger buck if they are there but will settle on whats available.

Moose cows are more likely to stand for a large-antlered bull than a small-antlered bull. Not so with mule deer - bucks are bucks.


OK a 2 year old 2 point and a four year old 4 point fight over a doe which buck is going to win? I did not say that the 2 point doesn't have the genetics to become a trophy 10 point! I said The science of nature predicts that the strongest healthiest animals get to breed !



2 year old 2 point could kick a weak 4 point's ass. And in an area with lower buck density, possibly there's no 4 point around when estrus hits, and the 2 point does the deed on the local does.

Point is, with deer, it doesn't really matter. All that is required is a sperm supply - repeat this in front of the mirror tonight until you get it. That's why we manage deer on sex ratios and NOT on age class.

[Jelvis]

GG wood have schooled you by now if he wanted. G wood have twisted your three point theory into the twilight zone by now. With daily facts dating back seven generations on everything deer or deer winter/summer range manageability and sustainable winter range.
Jel -- btw I saw a three point mule buck near ah McClure had a thirty inch plus spread and 12 inch tine length. A three point mule buck that looked like a quarter horse with antlers

[sparky300winmag]

i think when they changed the end date to nov.10 might have something to do with the bigger bucks not being down yet...the xtra 5 days would have helped..there were 4 pts and 5pts all around my neighbour hood tho ..just weird they wouldnt be with the 150 plus does we saw farther up the mountain

[sparky300winmag]

i would love a late season any buck archery season right to nov.30

[sparky300winmag]

islandeer , were you hunting in reg 4 or in reg 3 or 8 when you got your crankers...a bit different geography

[Weatherby Fan]

GG wood have schooled you by now if he wanted. G wood have twisted your three point theory into the twilight zone by now. With daily facts dating back seven generations on everything deer or deer winter/summer range manageability and sustainable winter range.
Jel -- btw I saw a three point mule buck near ah McClure had a thirty inch plus spread and 12 inch tine length. A three point mule buck that looked like a quarter horse with antlers

my older brother shot a two point with a 22 inch inside spread , 11 and 13 inch tines on each side and was aged at 1.5 years ! Had nine does with him.....a real stud ! It was an area 3 buck jelly

[BRrooster]

How did everyone do with their trail cams this year? Did anyone notice if the more mature bucks were becoming nocturnal during the 4 pt seasons. Where I hunt, the sign was there , but the deer weren't moving around during the usual times. Saw and heard lots of vehicles and quads and deer can see and hear a lot better than us. The guys I hunt with don't use trail cams, and all swear that the populations are down. I don't know.

[Sitkaspruce]

So who gets to breed all the lovely sexy does standing by?? And do they really care who wins??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/2013%20Game%20Camera/000958_PICT0958_zps556e4149.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Sitkaspruce/media/2013%20Game%20Camera/000958_PICT0958_zps556e4149.jpg.html)

Cheers

SS

[.264winmag]

How did everyone do with their trail cams this year? Did anyone notice if the more mature bucks were becoming nocturnal during the 4 pt seasons. Where I hunt, the sign was there , but the deer weren't moving around during the usual times. Saw and heard lots of vehicles and quads and deer can see and hear a lot better than us. The guys I hunt with don't use trail cams, and all swear that the populations are down. I don't know.
Major nocturnal activity when the rut started compared to last year. But a cat went through my spot and snagged a doe one night, nov.2, next day my big boy and his does vacated never to come back. The satellite bucks stayed, 5 of em, only showed up in the dark thereafter. And usually around midnight, except a 1.5yr old 2x3 at noonish.

[Husky7mm]

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the
average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age
classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the
smaller-antlered young bucks.

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low
buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively
few, or no, additional fawns.


All very true, but one thing that antler point restrictions do do is allow for escapement, something which is obviously needed in the popular more accessable units in the EK. Do people want Mule buck LEH instead? I hazard a guess it would then become a trophy hunt like the WK elk were and the waits would become far to long.

[Fisher-Dude]

All very true, but one thing that antler point restrictions do do is allow for escapement, something which is obviously needed in the popular more accessable units in the EK. Do people want Mule buck LEH instead? I hazard a guess it would then become a trophy hunt like the WK elk were and the weights would become far to long.

• In some cases, antler point restrictions have increased the proportion of bucks in the population, but this
effect may not be long-lasting.

And that is listed as one of the few "benefits" of APRs. Yet it comes with a staggering qualification!

There is no need for LEH anywhere in the province for MD. Isolated pockets of lower-than-target sex ratios can be dealt with through temporary adjustments to season length, weapons restrictions, access restrictions, and/or coordination with native bands.

And remember the most important thing:

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size.

What that means is that for every buck that escapes, a fawn dies. That results in poor fawn recruitment which causes big problems over the longer term.

[wideopenthrottle]

• In some cases, antler point restrictions have increased the proportion of bucks in the population, but this
effect may not be long-lasting.

And that is listed as one of the few "benefits" of APRs. Yet it comes with a staggering qualification!

There is no need for LEH anywhere in the province for MD. Isolated pockets of lower-than-target sex ratios can be dealt with through temporary adjustments to season length, weapons restrictions, access restrictions, and/or coordination with native bands.

And remember the most important thing:

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size.

What that means is that for every buck that escapes, a fawn dies. That results in poor fawn recruitment which causes big problems over the longer term.

yes, good observation, and in limited food supplies, maybe 2 fawns will have enough food/survive the winter with one less buck around

[dougan]

• In some cases, antler point restrictions have increased the proportion of bucks in the population, but this
effect may not be long-lasting.

And that is listed as one of the few "benefits" of APRs. Yet it comes with a staggering qualification!

There is no need for LEH anywhere in the province for MD. Isolated pockets of lower-than-target sex ratios can be dealt with through temporary adjustments to season length, weapons restrictions, access restrictions, and/or coordination with native bands.

And remember the most important thing:

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size.

What that means is that for every buck that escapes, a fawn dies. That results in poor fawn recruitment which causes big problems over the longer term.
What makes you think a fawn dies because a buck lives?? How does that make sense ???

[jacksondog]

After the winter of 96/97 they changed the regs on the mule deer season to 4 point or better and closed it on October-31st in the west kootenays. By 2003 and for 5 years in a row I shot my best 5 mule deer. During this time I seen several large mulies as well and at our local West Kootenay Big Game night held annually there were many entries of big big mulies. Since this time it has slowly declined as far as quality and numbers go. My point is if the science is true(4 point restriction doesn't work) then closing the season on the 31st did work, because Mulie hunting was dismal at best after that bad winter but the deer came around in a big way by the mid 2000's. I'm not sure what the best solution is to improving the mule deer hunting but we can't keep doing the same thing over and over, one thing for sure is going to a LEH system is not good for anyone.

[Fisher-Dude]

What makes you think a fawn dies because a buck lives?? How does that make sense ???

Did you not get what this means:

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size.

Buck escapement increases but the population stays the same size. Add 1 buck to the population, and some other deer dies, and that will 9 out of 10 times be a fawn, as they are by far the most susceptible to starvation and predation.

With fewer fawns surviving, your population is in serious jeopardy. Fawn recruitment is the number one most important thing for a sustainable hunting season and healthy deer herd.

[Fisher-Dude]

After the winter of 96/97 they changed the regs on the mule deer season to 4 point or better and closed it on October-31st in the west kootenays. By 2003 and for 5 years in a row I shot my best 5 mule deer. During this time I seen several large mulies as well and at our local West Kootenay Big Game night held annually there were many entries of big big mulies. Since this time it has slowly declined as far as quality and numbers go. My point is if the science is true(4 point restriction doesn't work) then closing the season on the 31st did work, because Mulie hunting was dismal at best after that bad winter but the deer came around in a big way by the mid 2000's. I'm not sure what the best solution is to improving the mule deer hunting but we can't keep doing the same thing over and over, one thing for sure is going to a LEH system is not good for anyone.

Start smoking, and be careless with your butts. (just kidding, of course, but we need fire)

The habitat across the southern half of the province is one of the most limiting factors on mule deer population growth. Throwing a few hundred thousand whitetails into that habitat to keep a big cat population thriving doesn't help, either.

[J_T]

Start smoking, and be careless with your butts. (just kidding, of course, but we need fire)

The habitat across the southern half of the province is one of the most limiting factors on mule deer population growth. Throwing a few hundred thousand whitetails into that habitat to keep a big cat population thriving doesn't help, either.
Absolutely. Lack of quality habitat is the number one predator for Mule deer. It doesn't take much, when habitat changes through fire or logging to see an increase in mule deer numbers.

[wideopenthrottle]

What makes you think a fawn dies because a buck lives?? How does that make sense ???
only in the case of limited food supply IMO

[jacksondog]

Start smoking, and be careless with your butts. (just kidding, of course, but we need fire)

The habitat across the southern half of the province is one of the most limiting factors on mule deer population growth. Throwing a few hundred thousand whitetails into that habitat to keep a big cat population thriving doesn't help, either.
I agree, earlier in this thread I made reference to the area I hunt and an increase in mule deer numbers(not Trophy Bucks) but some small bucks for sure and the one thing that has changed in this area is log cuts after log cuts. But for how long will this last because the whitetail population is exploding in this area and so to are the wolves.

[wideopenthrottle]

the two edged sword of "habitat improvement"....some species may benefit more than others...as a matter of fact, the "habitat improvements" may actually create improvement for one species at the detriment of another

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I agree, earlier in this thread I made reference to the area I hunt and an increase in mule deer numbers(not Trophy Bucks) but some small bucks for sure and the one thing that has changed in this area is log cuts after log cuts. But for how long will this last because the whitetail population is exploding in this area and so to are the wolves.

Mulies do well in steep burns with blow downs. Not many toothy critters can keep up to their stotting escape routines.

[ian745]

silly question time, never really thought about this before as i dont hunt anywhere that has a 4 point or better season, well there is a local area for 2 point or better but i never go there ,,, when they say 4 point or better, is that 4 total?..or 4 per side, had a buddy ask me and i could recall..lol

[wideopenthrottle]

Mule (Black-tailed) Deer
- Four Points or Greater Buck
- means any buck having at least four tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler. Mule (Black-tailed) Deer - Three Points or Greater Buck - means any buck having at least three tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler.

from page 5 of the regs

[ian745]

Mule (Black-tailed) Deer
- Four Points or Greater Buck
- means any buck having at least four tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler. Mule (Black-tailed) Deer - Three Points or Greater Buck - means any buck having at least three tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler.

from page 5 of the regs





crap, i see that now, thanks, totally missed it!

[Husky7mm]

After the winter of 96/97 they changed the regs on the mule deer season to 4 point or better and closed it on October-31st in the west kootenays. By 2003 and for 5 years in a row I shot my best 5 mule deer. During this time I seen several large mulies as well and at our local West Kootenay Big Game night held annually there were many entries of big big mulies. Since this time it has slowly declined as far as quality and numbers go. My point is if the science is true(4 point restriction doesn't work) then closing the season on the 31st did work, because Mulie hunting was dismal at best after that bad winter but the deer came around in a big way by the mid 2000's. I'm not sure what the best solution is to improving the mule deer hunting but we can't keep doing the same thing over and over, one thing for sure is going to a LEH system is not good for anyone.

I bet the with the season being cut back to Nov 10 there will be big bucks around again real soon, especially in the EK.

[Husky7mm]

Did you not get what this means:

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size.

Buck escapement increases but the population stays the same size. Add 1 buck to the population, and some other deer dies, and that will 9 out of 10 times be a fawn, as they are by far the most susceptible to starvation and predation.

With fewer fawns surviving, your population is in serious jeopardy. Fawn recruitment is the number one most important thing for a sustainable hunting season and healthy deer herd.

I think things would have become very bad before fawns are dying because a buck ate its food. The forest is full of food and mule deer can winter way up near the goats, way above the wt and elk. They can walk on packed hard snow that falls from the conifer canopy. The deep snow actually helps them reach browse that would usually be to high, it also preserves their food. Mule deer also browes a bit and move on, its in their DNA. Bucks often winter at higher elevations than does and fawns. If the mulie population increases they likely will expand or return to areas that they have or were absent in rather than eat themselves out of house and home.
Having a a decent mulie buck population also helps prevent hybrids.

[hunter1947]

Big mule deer are up hi early winter late winter spring time where no man rarely goes they eat needles off fur blowdowns and old man's beard most big mule bucks will stay up hi even when there is 10 feet of snow or more I found a mule deer shed up hi there was still lots of snow there this was in March I figure there might had been 5 feet there at one time when the mule deer cast his antler..

[Caribou_lou]

I bet the with the season being cut back to Nov 10 there will be big bucks around again real soon, especially in the EK.

If the region I live in closed November 10th I'd never shoot a decent buck! Big bucks here don't even move into the area I hunt until at least November 15.

[Husky7mm]

If the region I live in closed November 10th I'd never shoot a decent buck! Big bucks here don't even move into the area I hunt until at least November 15.
They may not be there but I bet they're close. Anyways hunt them were they live in sept and oct, they taste good then too. When its easy everyone wants to do it.

[358mag]

They may not be there but I bet they're close. Anyways hunt them were they live in sept and oct, they taste good then too. When its easy everyone wants to do it.
Best quote yet Husky !!!!!
Its called a Hunting Season for a reason:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[budismyhorse]

Wow... Great discussion here. Calm and thoughtful..... What the hell? ;)

hey it's simple..... The system is very complicated. I think if we incorporate a little from each opinion ok this thread we have the answer.

What hunters don't really have is patience (ironically enough) these days.... The majority of folks seem to want to get out a few days and have their choice of large mule deer bucks.... With the pressure on our mule deer through predation/resource extraction/recreation/hunting I don't think we will ever get back to the "good old days"..... But with the right habitat improvements, predator management and landscape level planning we can probably get close.

But make no mistake.... Hunters are always going to have to work hard for a nice MD buck from now on. Access closure or not.... Unless an old buck is on the hunt for a lady they are cagey and not easy to kill. Shifting the season back to nov 10 will make more of a difference than most people realize.

Folks need to get the message out to their MLAs that funding wildlife is a seriously important issue to you. An election is not far off and parties are looking for votes!

[coach]

Folks need to get the message out to their MLAs that funding wildlife is a seriously important issue to you. An election is not far off and parties are looking for votes!

Moat intelligent posts in this entire thread!

[Spy]

Wow... Great discussion here. Calm and thoughtful..... What the hell? ;)

hey it's simple..... The system is very complicated. I think if we incorporate a little from each opinion ok this thread we have the answer.

What hunters don't really have is patience (ironically enough) these days.... The majority of folks seem to want to get out a few days and have their choice of large mule deer bucks.... With the pressure on our mule deer through predation/resource extraction/recreation/hunting I don't think we will ever get back to the "good old days"..... But with the right habitat improvements, predator management and landscape level planning we can probably get close.

But make no mistake.... Hunters are always going to have to work hard for a nice MD buck from now on. Access closure or not.... Unless an old buck is on the hunt for a lady they are cagey and not easy to kill. Shifting the season back to nov 10 will make more of a difference than most people realize.

Folks need to get the message out to their MLAs that funding wildlife is a seriously important issue to you. An election is not far off and parties are looking for votes!
Good post :-)

[Fisher-Dude]

I think things would have become very bad before fawns are dying because a buck ate its food. The forest is full of food

You actually think the current state of the southern BC habitat is in good shape and "full of food?"

Wonder why half of first year animals either starve to death or get weak and killed by preds in that zone that is "full of food"...weird.

[Husky7mm]

You actually think the current state of the southern BC habitat is in good shape and "full of food?"

Wonder why half of first year animals either starve to death or get weak and killed by preds in that zone that is "full of food"...weird.

Yes, full of food. Preds kill the healthy animals too, the weak are just easier. I doubt much escapes a large pack of wolves.... if there wasnt the weak or young as a distraction they would just shift their attention to healthy productive adults.
Those young of year enter the winter in excellent health and full of fat as summer food is almost enless. Many fawns are gone long before winter and even fall, we are in a predator pit.