Effect of antler regs on moose

[1899]

I guess some of this must have been discussed at some point, but here it goes. Some folks I know have been complaining that all of their trail cam pictures and sightings of bull moose lately have shown only two points on the brow tines. The discussion of course led to whether or not +3 points on the brow tine is a genetic trait. And if so, how does the long term targeting of that population effect future populations.

Any ideas or literature on this issue?

[Sylus]

I don't know if it is genetic or not but my guess would be that long term effects of targeting tri-palm bulls wouldn't 'weed them out of the population' and here's why:

1. Not exhibiting a gene doesn't necessarily mean you don't carry a gene. Take for instance a blonde haired kid descended from two brown haired parents.
2. Cow moose aren't targeted based on whether or not they produce tri palm calves. So you wouldn't see a reduction of that certain set of genes from the female side.
3. Rutting bulls can range far and wide searching for a cow to breed, meaning genes get spread around a lot. My thinking on this would be that a tri palm bull from a less heavily hunted area could mosey on in, do some breeding and carry on his way.

Either way, just my opinion. It very well could be totally wrong. Just the way I see it.

[dougan]

I don't know if it is genetic or not but my guess would be that long term effects of targeting tri-palm bulls wouldn't 'weed them out of the population' and here's why:

1. Not exhibiting a gene doesn't necessarily mean you don't carry a gene. Take for instance a blonde haired kid descended from two brown haired parents.
2. Cow moose aren't targeted based on whether or not they produce tri palm calves. So you wouldn't see a reduction of that certain set of genes from the female side.
3. Rutting bulls can range far and wide searching for a cow to breed, meaning genes get spread around a lot. My thinking on this would be that a tri palm bull from a less heavily hunted area could mosey on in, do some breeding and carry on his way.

Either way, just my opinion. It very well could be totally wrong. Just the way I see it.
I agree with all points but the first. If two dark haired parents have a blond kid it could be a case of the milk man being blond ... Just sayin

[mark]

The same argument could be said for 4 pt mules, 6pt elk etc....
thats why there's also a 10 pt season for moose, so the large bulls without tripalms can also be harvested.

[Sylus]

I agree with all points but the first. If two dark haired parents have a blond kid it could be a case of the milk man being blond ... Just sayin

I guess I better have a serious talk with my mom! :shock:

[Eastbranch]

A bull with the genetic and environmental potential to grow 3 brow points breeds a cow each year after age 2 before he has 3 brow points. He is shot as a 6yr old with 3brows. Were his genetics shot out of the population?

[russm]

I guess I better have a serious talk with my mom! :shock:

I'd say that's more of a talk for your mom to have with your dad lol

[wideopenthrottle]

I'd say that's more of a talk for your mom to have with your dad lol

are you sure your mom isn't blonde.. a lot of women don't even know their real hair colour from dying it for so long......and to anyone commenting on someone's mom...STFU...heheheheh

[Sylus]

are you sure your mom isn't blonde.. a lot of women don't even know their real hair colour from dying it for so long......and to anyone commenting on someone's mom...STFU...heheheheh

Nope definitely brunette. Blonde is a recessive gene that can 'hide' through a few generations before popping up again. Anyway, this derailed the thread.

Back on Moose: ArcticRed raises an excellent point. I think the whole idea of all the tri-palms being shot out is just people believing what makes them feel better.

[1899]

The same argument could be said for 4 pt mules, 6pt elk etc....
thats why there's also a 10 pt season for moose, so the large bulls without tripalms can also be harvested.

I don't think so. There are certain traits that are in all of the animals of the species - forked main beam on mulies vs single main beam on whitetails. Moose have brow tines and palmation of their antlers. I'd say the vast majority of mature (prime animals, not just sexually mature) bull elk are 6 points because that is the default. Same with 4 point mule deer. On the other hand I am not knowledgeable about brow tine configuration on moose. I have seen many prime, mature bulls without three points on the brow tine. So I am not sure your examples are comparing apples to apples.

@Sylus - yes, I am aware of recessive/dominant genes and expression of traits being dependent on homozygous/heterozygous genome.

[1899]

A bull with the genetic and environmental potential to grow 3 brow points breeds a cow each year after age 2 before he has 3 brow points. He is shot as a 6yr old with 3brows. Were his genetics shot out of the population?

You presume that the bull will actually have the opportunity to breed. In fact that bull will probably be beat down by a bigger, mature animal, leaving the latter to breed. IF the three points on the brow tine is a genetic trait then yes, over time the number of bulls expressing that trait will decrease.

[325]

In Germany, where they are able to cull "undesirable" traits of bucks/bulls far more rigorously than we can here, they still have very little control of antler phenotype because they don't cull females based on antler growth of their progeny. The idea that hunting bulls with certain antler traits will have an overall effect on population genetics in the wilderness of BC doesn't hold much water.

If you hunt an area and can't find a 6 point elk or tri-palm moose, it's most likely they've been shot out. Leave the area alone for a few years and there will be lots of legal bulls.

[elknut]

If you want an education on moose......Go to the ministry of enviroment in PG..They have bull moose antlers from yearlings to 15 years old...The brow palms start by being offensive..That means they face straight out...As the bull matures the brow palms develop more points and face in towards each other...These are defensive antlers...During a bulls prime rutting years of his life they grow progessively taller ...wider ..larger palms ..and big brow palms..Having said that ..some bulls have a full palm and no real brow palm..Then as they get older they loose their antler size a bit and their brow palms start to turn out...They also loose points and their palms can regress to pitiful resemblances of their original splendour..The biggest problem with the lack of brow palms is lack age or maturity...I've hunted Tuya lake many years ago out of Dease lake and found an old bulls rack...He died of old age..He was between 68-70 inches and when turned on his side was almost to the top of my head ..I was 5ft 11 inches at the time..Also one very quirky fact ..He had a palm about 6 inches wide and all the points were extremely long ..His brow points ..He had only one a side and they were about 24 inches ..He looked more like an elk than a moose..Ray Sande ---owner of BC Yukon airways said this lake and area held some of the biggest moose he had seen in his flying career..The moose got to be old and lived a full life..That is the secret to large brow palms...A bull may look mature ..but only checking his teeth for age will tell his true age...Dennis