Can observers be armed? (a friend tagging along)

[czechsanchez]

I have an upcoming hunting trip with some guys from work.
2 of the attendees are city slicker Americans who won't be hunting.
Would it be okay to have them carry defender shotguns so they can feel like they are special helpers :tongue: in case we get attacked by a herd of angry bears.
Or would that just end up causing headaches with the COs?

[Getbent]

I would say...umm No...

[Gateholio]

Legal for protection? Yes. If he's not seeking game. Pretty hard to NOT do if he's with you who is hunting.

Although the reality is- If you have an encounter with a CO you will probably be there a long time explaining how you aren't illegally guiding American hunters with no hunting licenses. And if they are truly city slickers with minimal firearm experience, you may be putting yourself and others at risk.

[dakoda62]

If they are americans then I doubt it

[BigfishCanada]

I think them just stocking with you may be considered hunting.

[dakoda62]

A Non-resident firearms declaration (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/form-formulaire/index-eng.htm#f909) that has been confirmed by a customs officer is deemed to be a temporary licence for up to 60 days.
Non-residents who have passed the Canadian Firearms Safety Course can apply for a five-year PAL.

[scoutlt1]

I have an upcoming hunting trip with some guys from work.
2 of the attendees are city slicker Americans who won't be hunting.
Would it be okay to have them carry defender shotguns so they can feel like they are special helpers :tongue: in case we get attacked by a herd of angry bears.
Or would that just end up causing headaches with the COs?


Applicable laws aside, I'd be most worried about the 2 "city slicker Americans (or whatever nationality)", carrying shotguns, wanting to be "special helpers", than anything else!!

[Coachman]

If you have to "ASK", and use words like special helper, Chances are, you already know the answer is NO..

[gamehunter6o]

The answer is NO.
A nice CO advised me (a non-resident alien) the only bear protection I was allowed to carry was pepper spray or air horn even though I had a permit to carry a rifle in BC. (I had been on a guided hunt)
I never cow called after that.:lol:

[Cpt_Black]

Now how does this apply to locals with valid PAL? I always carry my rifle when I'm up hiking or camping, feels stupid when I don't(could be prepared for anything, why am i not?)... My shooting friends won't likely have their hunting licences this fall, but I'd obviously like them to be joining me on my grouse/rabbit hunts while we're up on our camping trip.. and i would MUCH prefer them watching my back with something stronger than .17HMR or .22 :neutral:

[albravo2]

Contrary to the previous posters, I think they can carry. We had this discussion a couple weeks ago up Buckinghorse (where the two guys were attacked by Grizzly a couple days ago) because a non-hunting friend wanted to carry my defender. We did some searching and came up with the following from the RCMP site (google borrow firearm canada if you want to see the page):

Individuals who you do not have a firearms licence, or who are not licensed for the class of firearm they wish to borrow, may borrow the firearm only if they are under the direct and immediate supervision of an appropriately licensed adult (aged 18 or older) and there are no court orders prohibiting them from possessing firearms or other weapons.

[Gateholio]

Can carry legally for protection, yes. The issue is would they be considered to be hunting. Which I think they would

[albravo2]

This 'considered to be hunting' term has always frustrated me. I've read on here that people are afraid to walk in the woods with a gun before hunting season for fear a CO will accuse them of poaching. Or guys that are afraid to have lead shot anywhere near their duck gear.

Balderdash.

It is a cornerstone of our legal system that we are innocent until proven guilty. If buddy is standing over a dead deer with a smoking gun, he can safely be assumed to be hunting and he better have the proper equipment, permits and licenses. But if he is walking around in the woods with a sharp eye out for any potential threats I think it is going to be a tough sell to say he was hunting.

Depends on how he answers the COs questions, I suppose. The term 'hunting' applies to a lot more than shooting at the animal.

[Gryph]

What about having a friend carry your rifle for you while you carry your bow for deer, say Sept 1st in case you come across an "open" bear with intentions of only you making the shot?

[Cpt_Black]

Hmm.. but anytime we're up camping and hiking we could be considered to be hunting in that case.. my camping pants are camo which wouldn't help the cause:shock: But we aren't hunting and I never felt it suspicious at all.. I've never heard a law that states you cant be out in hunting areas, during season with a gun, but not hunting or licensed to do so. You'd think they'd touch on that in the PAL courses if there were stipulations to where you can carry, during various seasons.. that would require you to be familiar with the synopsis and core regulations which isnt needed.

Maybe they would just want to see my kills and confirm that they weren't shot by the others? They both carry an SKS, and one also has a open bore shotgun.. The damage would be considerably more than what I'm dealing out, and the wounds would be easily identified as my own. It seems just as likely they could be suspicious that I handed them my gun and let them pop one or two.. whether they are armed or not.

[albravo2]

They can carry a gun you lend them, but they cannot hunt. Here is a definition from the regs of what it means to hunt:

hunt & hunting - includes shooting at,attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following after or on the trail of, stalking, or lyingin wait for wildlife or attempting to do any ofthose things, whether or not the wildlife is thenor subsequently wounded, killed or captured:(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or(b)while in possession of a firearm or other weapon.

[Cpt_Black]

They can carry a gun you lend them, but they cannot hunt. Here is a definition from the regs of what it means to hunt:

hunt & hunting - includes shooting at,attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following after or on the trail of, stalking, or lyingin wait for wildlife or attempting to do any ofthose things, whether or not the wildlife is thenor subsequently wounded, killed or captured:(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or(b)while in possession of a firearm or other weapon.

This is the part that worries me. Seems a little vague.. They're out there with me, as they always are. Doing those things as a group essentially. Really I'm the one doing it, they're just moving along quietly as well to not F up my hunt.. and of course they'll tell me when they spot something.. But I'm the one shooting.

But where it says.."with intention to capture" and.. "while in posession" not, "while in posession with intent" Doesnt look good for my company and bear watch:(

So does this mean you cant birdwatch whilst packing heat either? I'd hate to have to leave the gun at camp whenever i bring my camera.. Bird watching, or any sort of wildlife photography requires many of those things..:shock:

[russm86]

This 'considered to be hunting' term has always frustrated me. I've read on here that people are afraid to walk in the woods with a gun before hunting season for fear a CO will accuse them of poaching. Or guys that are afraid to have lead shot anywhere near their duck gear.

Balderdash.

It is a cornerstone of our legal system that we are innocent until proven guilty. If buddy is standing over a dead deer with a smoking gun, he can safely be assumed to be hunting and he better have the proper equipment, permits and licenses. But if he is walking around in the woods with a sharp eye out for any potential threats I think it is going to be a tough sell to say he was hunting.

Depends on how he answers the COs questions, I suppose. The term 'hunting' applies to a lot more than shooting at the animal.

Agreed. I think also that the onus would be on the CO to prove you're intent one way or another, like actively pursuing game AKA hunting vs taking a Sunday stroll or training/getting in shape for a back pack hunt or whatever, even scouting I don't think would really be considered "hunting" but that may be a little more open to interpretation but then again intention could mean the world. There's nothing saying one can't dress in full camo to go shoot some paper in the bush anytime of the year or maybe pack a rifle along on a hike or while out taking pictures.

[Cpt_Black]

It almost seems to imply that though.. Isn't there a CO on this site that could make this crystal clear? lol :roll:

[Sofa King]

It almost seems to imply that though.. Isn't there a CO on this site that could make this crystal clear? lol :roll:

they can't make vague wordings crystal clear though.
that's why they are always vague, so they can be interpreted in suitable ways.

I carried my gun with me every time I went into the woods this summer.
no laws were broke.
and even if a CO wanted to think that a person was doing otherwise, he should have to have some solid proof to support his thoughts.

[sapper]

I think them just stocking with you may be considered hunting.
Especially if they're "stocking" firearms. :wink: Now if they're stalking game and stocking firearms in their stockings then.... Ah, never mind. :lol:

[Cpt_Black]

Agreed. I'm not going to concern myself with it, it's in all of our best interest to have something that will scare off, or worst case stop, a bear, wolf, cougar.. they're all in the area and I'm going to be carrying around some tasty snacks for them. CO's know that and I'm sure they would agree.

[Barracuda]

It is pretty clear in the regs that if you search or are laying in wait, trailing etc and you have a firearm or other weapon with you can be considered to be hunting .
I don't think a CO would take kindly to some armed out of country tourists traipzing around with you while you are hunting as by definition they would be hunting also and if a CO were to be in a really bad mood he could also accuse you of being their guide:shock:.

Give them each a Baseball bat and tell them that if a bear charges them whoever hits the other guy first has the best chance of escaping the bear :lol:

. Same sort of thing if a bowhunter in a bow only season brings a firearm with them they had better be sure that another season is open for them to use that firearm in the course of hunting or be prepared to play twenty questions trying to explain that it is only for protection and not for "backup" . ( shotgun is legal for most game and pretty easy to justify as protection a long range shooter like 7mm rem mag with a high power scope would be pretty tough to explain)



A wildlife violation is different then an offence under the criminal code the criteria is different for laying charges and like a drivers license they can pull your license instantly.

[Coachman]

Go to the Canadian firearm website. There us a link on the left for visitors. Borrowed firearms are listed. Its laid out pretty clear.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm

[Gun Dog]

The issue is hunting, not the touching a firearm. A similar thing happens when I tag out (I've forgotten what it's like). I'll go along with my friend to support, maybe help track, maybe help clean and carry out game but I shouldn't carry a gun 'cause then I'd be hunting. That's why I always get a White Tail tag. I'm not looking very hard for a WT but I am legal.

edit: I almost forgot -- I'm hunting wolves and coyotes too.

[wideopenthrottle]

It almost seems to imply that though.. Isn't there a CO on this site that could make this crystal clear? lol :roll:

yes there are but they are under cover....heheheh

[MichelD]

You'll have a rifle. They'll be with you. Why would they need a firearm? If they're that scared of wolves, bears and cougars, maybe they should... oh never mind.

[cassiarkid]

If you waited until duck hunting season, they could get their Migratory License and carry a shotgun and say they were duck hunting if questioned!! I always thought that was a stupid rule. Any idiot can hunt migratory game birds!!

[Cpt_Black]

yes there are but they are under cover....heheheh LOL


You'll have a rifle. They'll be with you. Why would they need a firearm? If they're that scared of wolves, bears and cougars, maybe they should... oh never mind.
It's, a:we generally always carry our guns when we go on hikes, sometimes for days camping in remote areas.. it's a good thing to have, and b:the gun I'm carrying to shoot grouse/pheasant/bunnies wont stop much more than that:p

[Barracuda]

they could always get a small game license and as long as there is a season open the could hunt small game Which would mean they would be allowed to hunt with you and carry a firearm and if they saw a legal small game animal they could take it. its 50 bucks they don't need a guide as long as its only small game they are hunting

[Backwoods]

This 'considered to be hunting' term has always frustrated me. I've read on here that people are afraid to walk in the woods with a gun before hunting season for fear a CO will accuse them of poaching. Or guys that are afraid to have lead shot anywhere near their duck gear.

Balderdash.

It is a cornerstone of our legal system that we are innocent until proven guilty. If buddy is standing over a dead deer with a smoking gun, he can safely be assumed to be hunting and he better have the proper equipment, permits and licenses. But if he is walking around in the woods with a sharp eye out for any potential threats I think it is going to be a tough sell to say he was hunting.

Depends on how he answers the COs questions, I suppose. The term 'hunting' applies to a lot more than shooting at the animal.

thanx for saying it for me!! especially if the CO checked his firearm say and it was a defender, its obvious if he is hunting or packing a weapon for protection just buy his ammo, and how many rounds you can legally hunt with.... But all and said them being city slickers....sketchy with your bear protection if you need it, your going to want a guy that is very familiar with the firearm and calm in a situation like that can even make the shot because their not crapping their pants!:icon_frow!

[Backwoods]

they can't make vague wordings crystal clear though.
that's why they are always vague, so they can be interpreted in suitable ways.

I carried my gun with me every time I went into the woods this summer.
no laws were broke.
and even if a CO wanted to think that a person was doing otherwise, he should have to have some solid proof to support his thoughts.

well said!!

[Cpt_Black]

they could always get a small game license and as long as there is a season open the could hunt small game Which would mean they would be allowed to hunt with you and carry a firearm and if they saw a legal small game animal they could take it. its 50 bucks they don't need a guide as long as its only small game they are hunting
In my case, if they'd get the damn test done and had their resident hunter number..(i'm not talking about tourists btw [..kinda hijacked this with a similar topic.. felt this a better place to get the info together sorry..] these are locals with their own guns), they could be up for some rabbits without needing anything else..Not my point though..

The fine print has me questioning what we can actually do out in the bush while carrying a gun.. If I'm hiking and i see, say, a bighorn.. I may want to stealth up to a better vantage point and get a shot.. with my camera:p Though this could be seen as me hunting this ram by a CO or anyone who might see me do it, they would probably also see my actions that followed, where I take my pics and carry on.
I dont think i want to risk it with me hunting though.. Guess I'll be wearing the shotgun on my back, and they can have whistles hahaha!

edit: Here's more reason to have my boys watching my back.. right in my neck of the woods posted today
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?120790-Charged-by-Black-Bear