West Kootenay elk

[kootenayelkslayer]

Well, I just heard the word that they are opening up the west kootenay bull elk season into an open hunting season, with the exception of 4-16 I believe. It should be a good year, I have never seen this many elk around the W. Koots during the spring time. I might have to take the fall semester off school to bag one of those big bulls.:wink:

[MattB]

Just get a few guys together and skip a week of school...No sense missing a whole semester.

[Poguebilt]

were is this advertised...

I might have to make a road trip to the other side!!

[JohnS]

If this is "True" there will be alot of big bulls harvested....

[4blade]

i know there was rumour of this but i talked to the C.O at our wildlife banquet and he said no .i hope not it would be an absolute nut house and slaughter, last time they opened up 4-18 35 bulls were taken out of a fairly small limited access area .i think it would make more sense for LEH.how do you go from roughly 30 LEH tags for 3 regions to an open season makes no sense.i did hear 8-15 may be open season they have 40 LEH now.

[JohnS]

It won't happen anyways ;) but its always nice to dream I have seen super Nice Bull's around the Kootenay's(West) and Not in 4-18 either ...;)

[kootenayelkslayer]

Apparently it really is going to open. A friend of mine got the news directly from the head ministry biologist for the west Kootenay (Mowatt).
I know we've talked on this forum before about whether or not it's a good idea to open this area up. I personally don't like the idea. Just doubling the LEH tags would make me happy.

[mcrae]

I heard it was just 4-09 that was getting opened up. I have also heard some rumours that a guide outfit is looking to set up shop and get the rights for the area as well. Its all just rumours until I see it actaully happen. I hope they don't do an open season everywhere though just increase the LEH so a guy could actually get drawn every couple of years instead of the once every twenty years it is now:frown: if your lucky!

[hunter1947]

If it is treu ,i hope they have everything in place so the hunters don't clean house ,what i am saying is that they have to make sure that they are going to manage it right and not be a slauter house at the end of the season. hunter47.

[Fisher-Dude]

The reasons are:

1.) LEH is 3 point, this would be a 6 point season.
2.) There is NO conservation concern (biggest reason).
3.) There is so much inaccessible area, and hunting is tough in thick steep terrain.
4.) 4-18 still produces lots of nice bulls and has been open for years.
5.) The whole W Koots used to be GOS any elk, when there were twice the hunters we have now.
6.) Doubling LEH in an area with 60:1 odds and 65% success, still means you would only harvest an elk every 46 years, so that isn't the answer.

4-16 I understand may not be opened. The rest of the W Koots is tough area to hunt. It will spread out hunters from the E Koots and 7B as well. The elk will be fine IMO, and apparently in the opinion of the biologists who have looked at this scientifcally and decided to provide more hunting opportunities - and that's what this province needs.

[JohnS]

I heard it was just 4-09 that was getting opened up. I have also heard some rumours that a guide outfit is looking to set up shop and get the rights for the area as well. Its all just rumours until I see it actaully happen. I hope they don't do an open season everywhere though just increase the LEH so a guy could actually get drawn every couple of years instead of the once every twenty years it is now:frown: if your lucky!


Yes your not Kidding 20 yrs + for me trying LEH in 4-17 and Nothing what a joke:mad: and as far as guides setting up shop for it if does open ... I'll be totaly agaist that 100% we don't need them in here either. I like my Backyard the way it is thanks. I'd rather see it stay closed than open for GOS.

[boxhitch]

F-D, which zones are to be opened, and which unchanged ?

[BCrams]

This is a great opportunity for hunters to expand their hunting areas!

You can count on the first 2-3 years having some great bulls taken before things level off. In no way, will there be a negative impact on the elk population. I understand the area is remote, tough and difficult to hunt and this will weed out many of the would be opportunists after the first year or so when they realize elk hunting the east Koots or up north is easier.

Might have to give a call to some folks I know in the west Koots for elk to capitalize on the 1st year of the GOS. :biggrin:

[Spitzer]

1.) LEH is 3 point, this would be a 6 point season. The rest of the W Koots is tough area to hunt. It will spread out hunters from the E Koots and 7B as well. The elk will be fine IMO, and apparently in the opinion of the biologists who have looked at this scientifcally and decided to provide more hunting opportunities - and that's what this province needs.


I agree, the west of Region 4 is very tough country to hunt. A 6pt season would be nice because as it is, most people will never see a draw and never get hunting opportunities.

With an open 6pt season a few more will be shot for sure the first year but I think things will balance out just like the other open areas in the west Kootneys. The elk will be educated and harder to find.

I know many guys that have gotten draws and end up shooting 3pt or 5pts anyway! :mad:

The Ministries draw numbers don't accurately reflect the elk population. There are alot of elk it's just tough to find one.

I think this is a good thing, I hope it's true.:smile:

[Fisher-Dude]

F-D, which zones are to be opened, and which unchanged ?

All to a GOS except 4-16 is what I have heard. I'm also hearing that the season would be short, and probably not in the rut, like 4-18 which is open post-rut Oct 7 - 20. I was also under the impression that this wasn't going to happen until 2008, but that may have changed.

This will be my 30th year hunting elk, and having hunted them post-rut, I can assure you that success will be low. Those big bulls bail on the cows about Oct 1 (there are exceptions) and head for the ESSF on the north faces to recover. Good friggin luck getting in on a wiley old bull in that stuff, especially when they aren't bugling or searching for cows.

The guys who have success in 4-18 tend to be locals who hunt the area hard and know the country like the back of their hand. It's steep and thick in many spots, with a large road closure area. Expecting to stumble on a legal 6 point without being intimately familiar with the area in the W Koots is a crap shoot at best. Some will get lucky, but having spent a fair bit of time in that area, I don't expect the slaughter some are predicting.

In the 90s when the E Koots went to 6 point early/3 point late (Oct 10 - 20), despite pounding the bush in the late season for 3 points, I never killed one, and success rates were low (20% IIRC?).

[steepNdeep]

I understand the area is remote, tough and difficult to hunt and this will weed out many of the would be opportunists after the first year or so when they realize elk hunting the east Koots or up north is easier.

I've heard many rumours about a season over the last few years, so until I see it in print...

I agree with BC' - it is very tough terrain to hunt - thick and steep. I grew up in the area, but do most of my hunting in the Okanagan...:roll:

If they make the season outside the rut... good luck. IMHO, elk are wiliest of all big game and when they aren't bugling, they disappear.

[mcrae]

All my spots for elk are up road closures anyways and its true if you don't know the area its a tough hunt. 4-18 is my zone and I still have yet to draw blood on an elk:frown: not from lack of trying though!

I have no trouble cow calling bulls in for what its worth I just have not had a good shot yet on a 6x6. I don't bugle this time of year but they are still at it on and off in my spots. I had a huge 5x5 still smelly and ready to rumble come in a couple years ago with my wife cow calling in the timber. The elk was just about on top of me and getting ready to mate me when she realized he was to small and quit calling:lol: There I am with my rifle trying to stay still so I don't get viloated counting points and praying there is another one on the other side!!! Ah good times hunting!

The beauty of it is I usually get a nice mulie for my trouble:lol: Around Nelson there really isn't much room to hunt them that isn't straight up or behind a road closure but thats not true of all areas. My concern is areas like the #$^%&* or the top of the %$#@! and such where access is really easy. If the do go to GOS I do hope they put an early archery season on them though. They govt. will do what they think they need to do and time will tell but I know from talking to the local guys they would rather see a much improved LEH hunt than an open season. I will hunt them regardless but I am skeptical a GOS is a good thing.

[hunter1947]

All my spots for elk are up road closures anyways and its true if you don't know the area its a tough hunt. 4-18 is my zone and I still have yet to draw blood on an elk:frown: not from lack of trying though!

I have no trouble cow calling bulls in for what its worth I just have not had a good shot yet on a 6x6. I don't bugle this time of year but they are still at it on and off in my spots. I had a huge 5x5 still smelly and ready to rumble come in a couple years ago with my wife cow calling in the timber. The elk was just about on top of me and getting ready to mate me when she realized he was to small and quit calling:lol: There I am with my rifle trying to stay still so I don't get viloated counting points and praying there is another one on the other side!!! Ah good times hunting!

The beauty of it is I usually get a nice mulie for my trouble:lol: Around Nelson there really isn't much room to hunt them that isn't straight up or behind a road closure but thats not true of all areas. My concern is areas like the Penderoeille or the top of the Bombi and such where access is really easy. If the do go to GOS I do hope they put an early archery season on them though. They govt. will do what they think they need to do and time will tell but I know from talking to the local guys they would rather see a much improved LEH hunt than an open season. I will hunt them regardless but I am skeptical a GOS is a good thing. You know i would still like to see an LEH hunt in the west kootenays ,it doesnt take long before they are depleted to a low number. If they Staten out the elk LEH to a reasonable percentage for lottery ,then everyone would get picked in a few years ,i have heard in parts of Alberta that if you put in for 5 years on there LEH draw and never got picked that on the fifth year you automatically get drawn. hunter47.

[kutenay]

I think that the West Kootenays will support a short GOS and I would like to see this a split season with about five consecutive days available hunting during the first-second weeks of Sept. plus the current season in 4-18. I also would like to see a change to some of the road closures such as that on "Marsden Face" as I see NO reason for this to continue as I told Guy Woods a few years ago.

If, quads were banned on these road closures, but, highway vehicles allowed on only the main roads into major drainages, this would protect the wildlife from over-exposure to mechanized intrusions while still allowing reasonable access for time-limited hunters, IMO. We used to drive Grohman-Baldface Crs. in Model A Fords back in the mid-60s and there was FAR more game there then than now, so, limited vehicle access is not going to damage wildife values now.

LEH is a stupid, ineffective, deskjockey manner of "managing" wildlife and hunters; it was set up to benefit bureaucrats and the G/Os who want to hog OUR game for their profit. Properly managed GOS hunts can provide greater hunter opportunity, superior wildife management with appropriate staffing of FIELD COs and Bios plus encouraging greater numbers of hunters.....and both we residents and the MOE NEED this, or, we are doomed.

NO G/O should be allowed to operate in the West Kootenays and they should be systematically phased out throughout BC. We NEED our wildlife for ourselves and must stop allowing foreigners to rape our resources.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't "get" your discriminatory road closure idea Kutenay. So I would be allowed to take a Jeep with 44" Super Swamper tires up there and tear the shit out of things, but not ride my quad? That is exactly what would happen. How about something more realistic and less discriminatory like route restrictions like those used in the Greystokes area in Region 8...you can use your choice of vehicle, but you must stay on designated access routes with them. That keeps any form of offroad vehicle, be it a mud-bogger Jeep or a quad or a regular pickup, off the sensitive areas, and manages the impact to wildlife values.

Your suggestion seems designed specifically for YOU without considering the needs/desires/logic of other users.

[kutenay]

That is NOT what I posted, however, my opinion is based on experience in the area under consideration that goes back to the '50s. I specifically refered to highway vehicles which would eliminate the type of problem that you mention.

The road access into many West Kootenay drainages is already very restricted where highway legal vehicles are concerned and that should remain, however, quads allow too much access to fragile sub-alpine terrain and also disturb wildife feeding areas too much.

I simply want to see an opening of a few of the roads now closed to vehicles due to the political pressures exerted by "backcountry" ski lodges, etc., who don't like hunters as well as G/Os who want only horse/foot access; my idea is to improve things for residents while keeping crowds off of senstitive areas.

[J_T]

I strongly support the West Kootenay moving to a more liberal GOS.

LEH is killing hunter numbers. If they open enough terrain (MU's), control access and limit the season length, harvest numbers will still be within management objectives.

They should consider a youth season. They should consider an archery only season to expand the hunter numbers.

Don't think for a minute that Oct 01 is post rut in the West Kootenays. That's when they are just getting hot.

JT

[kutenay]

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of policy that I want to see, as well; this game BELONGS to US, not to the MOE execs in Victoria, the various G/Os or foreign hunters. We NEED to DEMAND that management be based on providing the best populations, hunting opportunities and access situations for US and then for other Canadians.

I dammed well know that a GOS can work in the West Kootenays and I also favour a youth season and an archery season, as well. I like the concept of short open seasons then "rest" periods and then another short open season. The Oct. season CAN be the best time to hunt, IF, they are bugling late as they do some years and I prefer hunting then as it is cooler.

Another idea might be rotating road openings/closures for vehicles, including quads, based on a weekly, monthly or even annual basis. This could allow for maximum hunter opportunity while spreading out the "impact" on the Elk populations. We need to let the MOE know that the status quo is not meeting our needs and do so loudly!

[Rainwater]

Good timing with the die off up North, maybe they will have some valets parking trucks and serve coffee. We'll all be there. Goodbye to this once quality hunt.

[Fisher-Dude]

Good timing with the die off up North, maybe they will have some valets parking trucks and serve coffee. We'll all be there. Goodbye to this once quality hunt.

There's no conservation concern in the W Koots on those elk. Why not go hunting?

[Rainwater]

I spent 05 and 06 hauling bulls out of that country for my lucky kids. You will NEVER have a quality hunt like that with a GOS. I am not a total advocate for LEH's but we will all witness what will happen when it changes. I guess some guys are just happy walking around in Elk country but if you ever had that tag you will think you have died and gone to ELK heaven. I took the liberty when I heard this rumour to call everyone I knew who had that tag, they were all bummed to hear it was going to GOS. Happy to have the had chance at a hunt of lifetime and happy to know that some of those big bulls would be left for the next winner or the next year. See ya there.

[Fisher-Dude]

I had a tag in 1995 for 4-16. I understand 4-16 may not be included in the GOS. The rest of the MUs have tougher access and rough steep country compared to 4-16. And yes, some 4-16 tag holders go home skunked. An acquaintance who had the draw in 1997, albeit not an avid elk hunter like myself, spent close to 3 weeks there without success. That's huntin.

[mcrae]

I spend close to eight weeks a year in 4-16 hunting,camping,atving and fishing and there are some seriously big bulls in there:)

I just can't get drawn:confused:

[Rob]

Maybe a stupid question but if it opens to GOS, are we still allowed to hunt in the area at the same time?

[Fisher-Dude]

If it opens to a GOS, then there won't be any more LEHs required in that area. Unless they offer up some rut hunts on LEH, and have post-rut GOS hunts. It would be pointless to have LEH and GOS at the same time...unless LEH is for antlerless or small bulls. GOS will be 6 point for sure.

It's funny all the hype that this has generated. So many guys will forego their regular elk hunt up north or in the E Koots to rush over to the W Koots only to be disappointed by the country, lack of access, and how elusive the elk are in that thick, steep crap. I think everyone is thinking that all of the west is like the 10 square miles in the 4-16 area. It ain't by a longggg shot!

[J_T]

Good timing with the die off up North, maybe they will have some valets parking trucks and serve coffee. We'll all be there. Goodbye to this once quality hunt.I'm not so sure about that. If we are talking West Kootenay in a more realistic sense, depending on how you define WK we're talking about somewhere between 2 and 3 million hectares of land. The low land is lake and a lot of private land, the upper extremities a lot of road closures. Horse back, Mtn bike or hike.

Not everyone is going to go to the same honey-whole you went to. And if they did, what do you think the odds of harvest would be with such a dense hunter number. While it would prove the point that hunters want what they believe to be an "opportunity" it would make sense to serve coffee cause there wouldn't be much point in hunting arm in arm.

The biggest bulls have been proven to live in Northern WK. I'd be hunting there.

But as I've said before, if there is a safety issue due to proximity of private land (I haven't heard of one) or a harvest number concern, then go to an alternative weapon season.

[mcrae]

To be successfull in the W Koots you need to know the lay of the land. Someone from outside the area that plans a trip not knowing the terrain or other factors is going to have a tough time of it. Like others have said there is lots of road closure but even the stuff that isn't behind a road closure is tough hunting.... Its steep and thick in most of the areas and the hunting can be quite challenging even for a guy that hunts the area's allot. To put things in perspective we apply for LEH elk and goat in the same hunting area in 4-16:biggrin: Not sure what a gos will do but if it happens I guess we will see. No point getting all worked up about it until its official:)

[scoot]

This will be my 30th year hunting elk, and having hunted them post-rut, I can assure you that success will be low. Those big bulls bail on the cows about Oct 1 (there are exceptions) and head for the ESSF on the north faces to recover. Good friggin luck getting in on a wiley old bull in that stuff, especially when they aren't bugling or searching for cows.

I could not have said it better myself. The timing could not be at a worse time for hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

News I got tonight from a very reliable source said that it appears the season is likely NOT going to happen. I won't elaborate, as I don't want to reveal my sources, but chances now seem slim that the GOS is a go.

[GoatGuy]

I spent 05 and 06 hauling bulls out of that country for my lucky kids. You will NEVER have a quality hunt like that with a GOS. I am not a total advocate for LEH's but we will all witness what will happen when it changes. I guess some guys are just happy walking around in Elk country but if you ever had that tag you will think you have died and gone to ELK heaven. I took the liberty when I heard this rumour to call everyone I knew who had that tag, they were all bummed to hear it was going to GOS. Happy to have the had chance at a hunt of lifetime and happy to know that some of those big bulls would be left for the next winner or the next year. See ya there.


If they weren't 350+ bulls, that's the exact same hunt as you'll get in many areas of the east koots and all over the north country.

They're shooting 340-350 class bulls in the e.koots every year and if you're willing to put some boot leather down you'll be in for some great action. It's also way nicer hunting.

If you head up north it's often even better and that's where the biggest bulls in the Province are coming out of (370-high 390s). A lot of that north country and e.k is much more forgiving and WAY easier to hike. Also more elk.

At 100:1 chances are the average hunter will never, ever, ever, have the opportunity to hunt nevermind harvest. Are we setting ourselves up for the "select" few? Alienating the majority of hunters so we can "hope" we get the area to ourselves? Sound familiar?

Why wouldn't we give everyone the opportunity to go out their back door and be able to hunt elk across as much of the province as possible?

I think the idea of being able to get out of the truck and bugle and get a couple of screams back really appeals to SOME guys - either that or the thought of shooting a 400" bull off a fence post???? That south country is a relatively easy elk hunt for what ends up being a marginally decent bull 5 times out of 10, a squeeker the other 3 (3-5 pts) and every once in a while somebody pulls the pin on a 360+ bull. 90% of the time it ain't any better than you can do in a GOS in any other region of the province. The rest of the W.K is a dog's breakfast on a good day and some of the hardest hunting in the province - probably the hardest in the province up north along the arrows.

There are also hundreds of valleys with vehicle restrictions and many valleys without roads or even horse trails.

There is no conservation concern with this hunt, it will not be a "slaughter" any different than any other hunt; after the first couple years guys will quit coming because it ain't nice and this will all be a wash. 4-18's been hunted for years and success is still EXTREMELY HIGH FOR THAT TIME OF YEAR - - way better than the E.K. So why are we holding ourselve's back? We finally have a biologist who's trying to create opportunity and we're saying NO.

We're definitely shooting ourselves in the foot on this one; sometimes it almost seems like we're our own worst enemies.

[kutenay]

I completely agree with this and I know the area extremely well; it is VERY tough hunting and far more so than the East Kootenays or the Muskwa-Gatho-Tuchodi, IME. BUT, it is "home" and I prefer to hunt there for emotional reasons.

I think that it is possible from a biological perspective, highly desireable from a hunter opportunity perspective and it would encourage more new hunters to join our ranks. With proper management, Elk hunting throughout B.C. could be greatly improved, as witness the South Chilcotin, but, we NEED the political clout of greater hunter-B.C.W.F. numbers to make this happen.

There is far too much "trophy hunter" attitude involved in too many of the decisions made concerning hunter access/harvest in B.C.; this is often inimical to both the health of certain populations here and in Alberta as well as denying ordinary hunters access to edible animals. I would bet that maost 6x6 Elk die of other than hunter-caused mortality factors in the W.K. and a G.O.S. would tend to prevent this. A week from Sept 7-15 and the Oct. season as in 4-18 would, IMO, be an appropriate method of managing W.K. Elk hunting.

[spikesaplty]

You know i would still like to see an LEH hunt in the west kootenays ,it doesnt take long before they are depleted to a low number. If they Staten out the elk LEH to a reasonable percentage for lottery ,then everyone would get picked in a few years ,i have heard in parts of Alberta that if you put in for 5 years on there LEH draw and never got picked that on the fifth year you automatically get drawn. hunter47.I to would like to see the draw system run on seniority of attemts of apply rather than jus lottory.I'd like to see the many folks who have applied for 20+ yrs finnally have a crack at their dream hunt before they die lol.8-) spike

[Rainwater]

Goatguy, Guys shoot animals off their truck hoods, quads and fence posts, not really the point, dead is dead. And actually it is your average guy that gets the draw, and it is WELL subscribed too. You did sum it up very well in your last statements, guys will quit coming and it will all be a wash. A quality hunt down the tubes. We hiked 4 k's for both of our bulls and carted them out. Great fun. Great hunt. Hope it stays.

[BCrams]

While there is always the quality and enjoyment of the hunt ....... out of curiosity, what did the 2 bulls score??

I can understand having the area on LEH if nearly every tag holder was shooting 340-350+ bulls similar to the draw zones you get in Arizona. It does not appear to be the case.

There is no conservation concern for the elk herd and in the midst of creating more hunter opportunity, having a GOS gets my vote. You won't be in danger of losing the quality of bulls these LEH units already have.

[boxhitch]

The expansion of GOS areas can only be good for all the Elk in the region. There are a finite number of hunters, spreading them out will relieve pressure in other areas. Win/win
The same reasoning goes behind trying to expand the sheep hunting in Ashnola/Keremeos/Snowy.

[Rainwater]

Scores are not the issue. One was 340 and one was 287. Junior shot the 287 and was tickled pink. He missed a honker that morning and got his that night. Bulls were in abundance. As far as the Ashnola/Snowy Sheep the local club has been trying to get an open season with full curl to no avail. Having said that the LEH system for sheep is working up there. I know the doomsayers will say it is the downfall of hunting but if you look at our herd compared to others under the LEH that will speak to how well it can work. We have little or no access management in our area,(that includes enforcement) an open season would see quads all over the alpine and grasslands. I guess a comparison could be made between the Ashnola and the WK, quality hunt, quality animals and a very small portion of our huge province dedicated to this.

[Rainwater]

I guess we can still talk about it but I just looked on line and I don't notice any change in the WK. Am I wrong???

[GoatGuy]

Scores are not the issue. One was 340 and one was 287. Junior shot the 287 and was tickled pink. He missed a honker that morning and got his that night. Bulls were in abundance. As far as the Ashnola/Snowy Sheep the local club has been trying to get an open season with full curl to no avail. Having said that the LEH system for sheep is working up there. I know the doomsayers will say it is the downfall of hunting but if you look at our herd compared to others under the LEH that will speak to how well it can work. We have little or no access management in our area,(that includes enforcement) an open season would see quads all over the alpine and grasslands. I guess a comparison could be made between the Ashnola and the WK, quality hunt, quality animals and a very small portion of our huge province dedicated to this.



Not demeaning the elk but for a 340 and a 287 the exact same hunt can be had with just as many bulls screaming in the east koots and up north (probably more). That's also for bigger bulls. And you don't need to put 6 kms under your boots for that size of elk either. You ought to try hunting the rest of the Province for elk. I think you'd be surprised!:lol:


This hunt isn't some kind of diamond in the rough as many think it is. These are high odds hunts where folks think a big bull's a guarantee. That isn't the case - most of the bulls I've seen come out are dinks, most don't even make the 340 class - nevermind the 3 pt bulls that are shot every year.


Trophy hunting is frowned upon by the non-hunting public and creating "TROPHY" hunts has killed off hunter numbers over the past 30 years. It has also given us a negative affliction with the public.


Giving 40 hunters the supposed "opportunity" at a trophy elk while alienating the other 86000+ hunters certainly isn't going to help hunter numbers or the public's perception of the resident hunter.


Hate to sound like a broken record but those are the facts. At some point we're going to have to learn we're ALL coming to the dog dish and while creating "special" seasons leaves us with more food in the short term it also means less recruitment, fewer numbers and no hunters in the future.

We're doomed if we don't change our mentality.

[kutenay]

I agree and I have to question this ...quality animal...attitude as this seems a subjective value judgement to me. I tend to prefer "eating animals" and I WANT to hunt where I was born as I enjoy it more. Why should I have to be restricted so that a few elitists can chase some fantasy about "trophies", the ONLY reason for not having a GOS is conservation, IMO, the Elk are there and it is my birthright to hunt them.

As it happens, my younger brother shot one of the largest bull Elk ever taken in the WK 20 years ago; I came within minutes of taking one just like it in the same spot in 2005, but, a guy who lives in Nelson beat me to him. This was in a GOS area and the bulls are there, it simply takes time and hard work to get one.

Quads, etc., can be controlled and a GOS is NOT going to kill off all the big, stinky, old bulls in the WK. As GG points out, we NEED MORE hunters and opportunity MUST be made for them to hunt or we will all suffer. If, we had 300,000-500,000 hunters in B.C., the we would have serious political clout and could get government action on Elk and Sheep transplants as well as habitat and enforcement issues. 80,000+ hunters is NOT enough to get the influence we need as a former Cabinet Minister told me in Reliable Gun in 1989, we gotta get more people into hunting and GOSs will help with that.

[bayou]

Would like to see the WK elk to stay on leh would actually like to see more leh like on EK sheep but with some changes go to preference point system higher fees to enter switch the elk to 6 point only so it is more of a trophy area. Dont think leh and trophy hunt is causing declining hunter numbers, the people I see dropping out are those that are tired of the new wave guys that are all about the kill, with lack of respect to the laws, the outdoors and others.

[BCrams]

Would like to see the WK elk to stay on leh would actually like to see more leh like on EK sheep but with some changes go to preference point system higher fees to enter switch the elk to 6 point only so it is more of a trophy area. Dont think leh and trophy hunt is causing declining hunter numbers, the people I see dropping out are those that are tired of the new wave guys that are all about the kill, with lack of respect to the laws, the outdoors and others.

You're out to lunch with those statements but you're entitled to your own personal belief. I particularly object your last statement about the new wave guys.

May I suggest you carefully re-read the posts, particularly those by GG to better educate yourself.

As far as trophy bull elk - there are areas outside the West Kootenays on a GOS for 6 point bulls that are producing bigger and better bulls on average than the WK LEH hunt. As a little hint - keep your eye on the next BC Record book when it does go to print. You just might find the elk from N. BC dominating the upper ranks.

[J_T]

while creating "special" seasons leavesGG, while I would agree with most of what you have said, I would consider that the specifics of what we are talking about (while "special" to the lucky few) is not a "special" season. It is a "limited" season. A limited opportunity, which doesn't support the overall objective of recruitment/retention. (which I know we agree to)

I'm not trying to derail this. I do feel that "special" seasons in some cases can create opportunity and do support the primary objectives.

LEH is a people management system. Effective. But limiting involvement doesn't support recruitment.

Rainwater, man, to be connected to two lucky kids that get that hunt once, let alone twice is pretty incredible. Hope you bought a lotto ticket.

[bayou]

BCrams yes its my opinion and thats why I dont say much for I disagree with most, and Ive read what GG writes some I agree with some I dont. I look at the record books and they show the quality of the animal but not always the hunt. If you are conserned with getting a better bull and feel there else where in GOS then this is good no need to apply for the LEH areas leave them for those that want to hunt that area. This is why I would like to see the costs raised to stop those from appling that do so just because its something to apply for.

[Rainwater]

Goatguy, I have hunted in all corners for Elk, not the Island. No you will not find a quality hunt like the WK for the "average" guy anywhere else. I guess a $1500 river boat trip would do it but for a guy with a doukebor Elk tag and a pack and boots the WK is very hard to beat. I spent years with the buglers in the EK and you still can't compare the hunt. These WK Elk are in there somewhat natural state carrying on their rutting activity as if no one was there to bother them. Not call shy, active during the day and it is a great op for kids to see how Elk actually live when they are not being harassed. It is one small fragment of BC like the Ashnola, lets' get away from the kill, kill, kill attitude of the larger wildlife orgs in BC and keep a couple of areas for quality.

[Clint_S]

Wish they would open it up at least everysecond year or so then I wouldn't have to just look at guys like this on my camera.

http://www3.telus.net/airedales/misc_images/elk1.jpg

[Rainwater]

Nice Shot Clint. I understand people wanting it to open but it is well subscribed to and it is working. Steep N. Deep as per your private message. I never said where my boys were hunting and the WK is a big zone. You still gotta be damn lucky to get the draw. Yes the internet has put a drain on some hunting areas.

[kutenay]

WHAT exactly ...is working..., that, to me, is the whole issue here?

I KNOW where there are huge bull Elk in various spots in the WKs and only this LEH nonsense makes it impossible for me (and others) to hunt them by backpack and boots. Obviously, a long GOS would not be in the best interests of either the Elk population OR sustained hunter effort/success, but, a short GOS would give an opportunity to those of us who want to hunt there and this should happen.

The terrain, forest cover, weather and lack of road access will mitigate the over-crowding/harvest issues after the first GOS as people realize that the WK is VERY tough hunting, far more so than the EK or the Muskwa, etc. I am dammed tired of trying to get a LEH tag in 4-09, I don't have many years left and I was among the locals who got the Elk introduced there, so, I deserve a chance.

I see no good reason not to have a short GOS in 4-09, 4-15, 4-07 and 4-08 during the 2007 hunting year. Perhaps a 5-point rule might be wise to prevent over-harvest of juvenile bulls, but, since you cannot "stockpile"wildlife, this LEH benefits only a very few and denies opportunity to those of us who are locals. Skrew "trophies", the real "quality"is in the actual hunt and in the excellent meat for one's family, that's the traditional Kootenay attitude toward ALL hunting.

[bayou]

kutenay Ive been in all the 3 areas you mentioned muskwa EK and WK there is hard to hunt areas in all three. I agree on one point the real quality is in the hunt so just hike up there and enjoy the elk you dont have to shoot one. Now if its for the meat then you might as well hunt a cow no sense in shooting a big old bull take a younger animal I think there may be some cow/calf draws in that area. Now by the sounds of it your term of local means WK people only if you could get it changed so people could only hunt withen there region then that would be great then the people in the EK and muskwa etc could have some good quality hunts with out being over run from others.
I am inclosing a quote I just read in a magizine it says it is from Fred Bear "Go afield with a good attitude, with respect for the wildlife you hunt and for the forest and fields in which you walk. Immerse yourself in the outdoor experience. It will cleanse your soul and make you a better person."
I thought this was quite good but everyone has there own opinion.

[GoatGuy]

The problem here is that the first thing guys think of is:


How does this affect me? Somebody's gonna shoot my trophy bull! What about my "trophy" hunt?

Don't try to sell it as a quality hunt - those can be found all over the province without a jetboat/plane/horses ~ just have to be willing to look outside of the LEH regs. If you haven't experienced these types of hunts you haven't tried. Those are the facts for anyone who's willing to hunt.


Instead guys will sit back and dream about those big bulls screaming..... put in their $5 every year and sit back, waiting, hoping and eventually passing on, still dreaming about that "trophy" hunt ~ never having experienced the opportunity.


After going from 174000 to 86000 you should be thinking about how this affects hunting. What about the future of hunting? The kids who live in Castlegar, Trail, Rossland, Nelson, Nakusp, Revelstoke that can only hunt weekends? Why shouldn't they be allowed to hunt their backyard? Why can't they have the opportunity to go out and hunt every year? What about when they grow up, have a job and kids and want to hunt elk locally? Just to get out and experience the opportunity to hunt Elk every year! The rest of the province's hunters say "NO it should be LEH because we want a trophy hunt." "My kids got that draw before, eventhough We can hunt elk locally every year, we want YOU to stay on LEH at 100:1 because we want to come over there and kill one."

As hunters we fact enough negative pressure from anti's and non-hunters ~ it's makes things worse when some believe things should remain on LEH, discriminating against our own and hurting hunter numbers because of a couple of trophy elk. The future of hunting vs. a couple of "trophy" bull elk - seems pretty petty to me, but hey everyone's got their own opinion.

Alienating 86000 for the benefit of 50, make sense?

[Clint_S]

I've been applying in region 4 for an LEH for about twenty years or so and have yet to see a tag. I know of many areas that hold large bulls that will live and die and never see any hunting pressure. If the LEH system was weighted properly so as to insure I could at least get a draw every ten years or I would be happy but at the rate it's going I will either be dead or too old to hunt by the time I get a draw. SOMETHING HAS GOT TO CHANGE WITH THIS SYSTEM so there is an increasing chance of getting the draw with every passing year. I've heard it's a weighted system but after many, many years of trying I've yet to see the evidence and am very frustrated.

Found these today with my daughter. That big palmated bugger will probably be on a downhill slide now and has likely never heard a shot.

http://www3.telus.net/airedales/misc_images/tamantlers.jpg

[kutenay]

I am opposed to LEH regulation of resident hunting for ANY species at ANY time as this denies opportunity to we residents who OWN the game while allowing signifigant foreign harvest of our rare species. The major reason for LEH is that it provides an illusion to the public that the B.C. government is actually "managing"our wildlife and the MOE boffins are ön top"of things, which they are not due to staff/funding shortages.

I believe in GOS hunting, banning of ALL foreign hunting where ANY resident's opportunities are limited thereby and adjusting seasons according to population inventory data, NOT, in restricting resident hunting through a stupid lottery system. I also believe in equality among ALL B.C. hunters in respect of harvest, this includes aboriginals as well as native Canadians of other ethnic descent.

We CAN have this, IF, we lobby strongly enough and it is the morally correct way to go. I am tired of the attitude that the status quo is good enough; I believe in improving our situation to the ultimate potential.

I have hunted and worked alone in the wilderness all over B.C. and the toughest Elk hunting, on average, is in the WK. Most hunters there seldom leave their vehicles, even quads and I have yet to meet anyone backpacking into any of the really good areas, in all my years, 40+, of hunting there, so, I don't think that a GOS will result in hordes of hunters swarming all over the mountains slaughtering every Elk that exists there.

Elk are probably the toughest quarry we have in terms of their ability to travel through difficult country and it is very common to put in a solid week of careful hunting from one's pack in the WK and never see a bull or even hear a bugle. That is what makes this hunt so exciting and challenging and a GOS would just allow for more of us to enjoy that and possibly harvest an Elk, as well; it's time to lobby Victoria for this.

[GoatGuy]

I am opposed to LEH regulation of resident hunting for ANY species at ANY time as this denies opportunity to we residents who OWN the game while allowing signifigant foreign harvest of our rare species. The major reason for LEH is that it provides an illusion to the public that the B.C. government is actually "managing"our wildlife and the MOE boffins are ön top"of things, which they are not due to staff/funding shortages.

I believe in GOS hunting, banning of ALL foreign hunting where ANY resident's opportunities are limited thereby and adjusting seasons according to population inventory data, NOT, in restricting resident hunting through a stupid lottery system. I also believe in equality among ALL B.C. hunters in respect of harvest, this includes aboriginals as well as native Canadians of other ethnic descent.

We CAN have this, IF, we lobby strongly enough and it is the morally correct way to go. I am tired of the attitude that the status quo is good enough; I believe in improving our situation to the ultimate potential.

I have hunted and worked alone in the wilderness all over B.C. and the toughest Elk hunting, on average, is in the WK. Most hunters there seldom leave their vehicles, even quads and I have yet to meet anyone backpacking into any of the really good areas, in all my years, 40+, of hunting there, so, I don't think that a GOS will result in hordes of hunters swarming all over the mountains slaughtering every Elk that exists there.

Elk are probably the toughest quarry we have in terms of their ability to travel through difficult country and it is very common to put in a solid week of careful hunting from one's pack in the WK and never see a bull or even hear a bugle. That is what makes this hunt so exciting and challenging and a GOS would just allow for more of us to enjoy that and possibly harvest an Elk, as well; it's time to lobby Victoria for this.

Just helping here, the new regional bio wants the season, as does Victoria - - believes there's absolutely no conservation concern and this would support resident hunting.

Some of the clubs want the season but some are opposed (trophy hunting).

We'll see what the next 6 months brings.

[kutenay]

GOOD, and thanks for your persistence in bringing this type of info. to our attention here; it is very useful and welcome.

I have had some fairly stormy conversations with MOE wildlife boffins over the years as they often do NOT have attitudes that I consider appropriate where resident access to game is concerned. I am inclined to strongly favour restrictions on harvest by having very short GOSs rather than LEH and also favour having only "main"access roads open to motorized traffic; this will enable the average BC hunter to at least have SOME chance at an Elk, Goat or Sheep.

I can honestly say that within 10 air miles of Nelson, there are quite a few HUGE bull Elk, BUT, very few guys will hike into where they are and packing one out takes two average days. I happen to enjoy hunting there and while I seldom score due to antler regs., the hunt itself makes my whole year.....after my aching bod recovers with a few "liquid poultices"from the Nelson Brewing Company!

There will never be the kind of hunting pressure that exists in the Elk, Bull or Flathead, so, I really hope that this goes ahead as it is good news to me.

[Rainwater]

I like your attitude Kutenay. Goatguy, I feel really bad for all those hunters that put in their $5, don't get an LEH tag, and then stay home. IF those guys are helping to recruit young hunters you are absolutely correct in that "we" are in trouble. As you said quality hunts abound in BC (I agree) so these stay at home guys should get out there and enjoy. You keep talking about someone and their kids as if it was all our fault this LEH exsisted, this is not our hunt, it's everyones hunt. Maybe in your extensive research you should talk to a few of the boys that have had that draw and see how they feel about it. You gentleman on this post are making some very good points and I like the passion you show.

[BCrams]

As you said quality hunts abound in BC (I agree) so these stay at home guys should get out there and enjoy. You keep talking about someone and their kids as if it was all our fault this LEH exsisted, this is not our hunt, it's everyones hunt.

Indeed, there are quality hunts all across the province for elk. Here's another way to illustrate why it should be a GOS to recruit hunters rather than deter them. It is 'everyones hunt'. So lets remove the LEH for these areas and create the GOS hunt so everyone can enjoy elk hunting for what it is.

Many hunters out there and probably the majority are weekend hunters and due to the logistics involved with such 'big trip' hunts (gas, tents, trailers, precious holiday time for other occasions such as family) - they just cannot afford to take a week off and travel to the East Koots, northern BC or other areas where elk hunting occurs.

An example -

I could not afford to go to the Kootenays or to northern BC for an elk for such a long time and neither could my Dad. We always wanted to hunt elk. When they opened the elk season in central BC, we were absolutly thrilled. We now can 'hunt' elk and enjoy what elk hunting is all about right out our back yard or anywhere within an hour or two drive. The month of September is now filled with exciting elk hunting and while the hunting can be just as tough as anywhere for elk - we scored on a fine bull elk in our 2nd year of trying. I'll never forget that hunt with my Dad as we bugled and played a bull that included a charge in thick bush to 20 yards (and we still couldn't see him!) and then as he made off with his cows, we gave chase and finally caught up to him and had the opportunity to take him.

Not to mention many other times we had bulls screaming but couldn't get him to commit ..... we were hooked!!

With the creation of this GOS, we now can hunt elk in the evenings after work and the weekends whether we choose just to go for a half day or full day - at least we can hunt elk and we're not sitting on our laurels hoping to draw a tag that is probably not even a once in a lifetime opportunity.

By opening up the WK bull elk season to a GOS - you're going to create so many opportunities for the locals within the WK region as well as those a little further such as the Okanogan who just "can't make it" to the East Koots for a weekend hunt or up north.

I now enjoy elk hunting locally with my father and friends with the GOS, where we otherwise may never had an opportunity to experience the excitment of elk hunting.

Thats the quality of the hunt the majority are looking for.


As far as Trophy Bulls go for those who are looking for trophy bull elk and the quality at the same time - there are already areas under a GOS that will offer this opportunity and there is no need to think the WK LEH is "the" hunt. A little leg work in a GOS area and you'll have the whole place to yourself for a week or two hunting "undisturbed bulls".

[kutenay]

If, my major desire in Elk hunting was to kill a decent 6x6 trophy bull, I would not even consider the WK, even the upper Arrow or 4-09. I have lived alone in the bush in these areas for months, doing fire lookouts and so forth and, even then, spotting big Elk here is quite rare and getting the meat out is really harsh.

I would go into the headwaters of Chlotapecta Creek up north by horse and hunt there; I have never seen so many really good bulls in one area as I found there when I spent two weeks hunting them in 1991.

For the BEST racks, but, with pretty low success per hunt, there are a couple of spots in the Kootenays where I have seen fabulous racks come out of, or, seen the actual Elk when working and not allowed to shoot by B.C.F.S. regs as I was on duty...this is as it should be, IMO.

So, advocating for large-scale transplants into all of that excellent, unpopulated or under-utilitzed range in the Chilcotin, from Yalakom north and west as well as further plants throughout the Similkameen-Coldwater-Granby and other appropriate ranges would, IMO, give BOTH trophy and regular hunters far more hunting opportunity AND harvest success than continuing LEH in the WK will.

We will have as good hunting here as we are willing to fight for and if every hunter in BC was a member of the BCWF, even though it's not perfect, we would ALL benefit through more political clout which would mean more hunting by better management.

[BCrams]

Wouldn't that be something to see elk in the Chilcotin along the west side of the Fraser right from Williams Lake down through the Empire ! I always did tell myself it is great elk country when deer hunting down that way.

Elk will likely get a foothold without transplants as they may eventually end up down there by way of southward movement from the Blackwater River / Cottonwood River / Quesnel River herds.

Competition with the localized california bighorn sheep and mule deer might not be a good thing though.

[Rainwater]

BC Rams, We talked about an Elk transplant in the Lower Similkameen and the ranchers were a little more than concerned about it.

[BCrams]

Never did say I was an advocate for elk transplants. :)

They're like a bad weed....they'll just spread and continue to expand.

[hunter1947]

I've been applying in region 4 for an LEH for about twenty years or so and have yet to see a tag. I know of many areas that hold large bulls that will live and die and never see any hunting pressure. If the LEH system was weighted properly so as to insure I could at least get a draw every ten years or I would be happy but at the rate it's going I will either be dead or too old to hunt by the time I get a draw. SOMETHING HAS GOT TO CHANGE WITH THIS SYSTEM so there is an increasing chance of getting the draw with every passing year. I've heard it's a weighted system but after many, many years of trying I've yet to see the evidence and am very frustrated.

Found these today with my daughter. That big palmated bugger will probably be on a downhill slide now and has likely never heard a shot.

http://www3.telus.net/airedales/misc_images/tamantlers.jpg Just look at the LEH draws in Alberta ,in this system if you have not been picked after 5 years you automatically get picked ,then you get put on the back burner till all others get picked for that species. ,you are right something has to change hear ,i have been putting in for island elk for 30 years and only got picked one time and that was in 1988. hunter1947.

[hunter1947]

Wouldn't that be something to see elk in the Chilcotin along the west side of the Fraser right from Williams Lake down through the Empire ! I always did tell myself it is great elk country when deer hunting down that way.

Elk will likely get a foothold without transplants as they may eventually end up down there by way of southward movement from the Blackwater River / Cottonwood River / Quesnel River herds.

Competition with the localized california bighorn sheep and mule deer might not be a good thing though. All about Revenue my friend ,big bucks and somehow we don't seam to have that kind of money:-( hunter47.

[30-06]

i would hate to have to put in for LEH elk every year.thats why i go up north were there is no leh's. and the odds of getting out around my house in tulameen are 1 in a 100..and we have no Leh's

[hunter1947]

This what i think should be done in the LEH system in order for all to get picked. Say you have been putting in for one species without missing a year for 10 years ,then you would automatically get picked for that one species if you never missed a year in applying ,then everyone would get picked sooner or latter ,the ones that have got picked will not get picked again till there second ten years is up again . And if that is to short of a time frame ,then make it 15 years ,what ever will work. hunter1947.

[horshur]

The problem here is that the first thing guys think of is:


How does this affect me? Somebody's gonna shoot my trophy bull! What about my "trophy" hunt?

Don't try to sell it as a quality hunt - those can be found all over the province without a jetboat/plane/horses ~ just have to be willing to look outside of the LEH regs. If you haven't experienced these types of hunts you haven't tried. Those are the facts for anyone who's willing to hunt.


Instead guys will sit back and dream about those big bulls screaming..... put in their $5 every year and sit back, waiting, hoping and eventually passing on, still dreaming about that "trophy" hunt ~ never having experienced the opportunity.


After going from 174000 to 86000 you should be thinking about how this affects hunting. What about the future of hunting? The kids who live in Castlegar, Trail, Rossland, Nelson, Nakusp, Revelstoke that can only hunt weekends? Why shouldn't they be allowed to hunt their backyard? Why can't they have the opportunity to go out and hunt every year? What about when they grow up, have a job and kids and want to hunt elk locally? Just to get out and experience the opportunity to hunt Elk every year! The rest of the province's hunters say "NO it should be LEH because we want a trophy hunt." "My kids got that draw before, eventhough We can hunt elk locally every year, we want YOU to stay on LEH at 100:1 because we want to come over there and kill one."

As hunters we fact enough negative pressure from anti's and non-hunters ~ it's makes things worse when some believe things should remain on LEH, discriminating against our own and hurting hunter numbers because of a couple of trophy elk. The future of hunting vs. a couple of "trophy" bull elk - seems pretty petty to me, but hey everyone's got their own opinion.

Alienating 86000 for the benefit of 50, make sense?

I wish most of the LEH's were GOS---What's the point of the "No Fence High Fence" hunt? just a bit more sporting???
Frankly I'd rather see lower game numbers if that is what resulted cause at least I could hunt and if I was good, cause I'm rarely lucky, I could harvest a animal.
As it stands I look forward to a 20 year wait on a local moose tag for my boys and daughter. Yeh my ten year old knows where to look, has seen local bulls, found sheds and gone through the BS called CORE but he's gonna have to be patient if he wants to shoot a local bull or were gonna have to mortgage the house to pay gas to hunt up north in country we don't know and well never really know. A meat hunt that cost more than a side of beef--insane. keep preaching Goat.

[Fisher-Dude]

This what i think should be done in the LEH system in order for all to get picked. Say you have been putting in for one species without missing a year for 10 years ,then you would automatically get picked for that one species if you never missed a year in applying ,then everyone would get picked sooner or latter ,the ones that have got picked will not get picked again till there second ten years is up again . And if that is to short of a time frame ,then make it 15 years ,what ever will work. hunter1947.

This would do absolutely NOTHING for the recruitment and retention of hunters. New hunters do not want to wait 10 years to hunt an elk. A kid getting into hunting just wants to get out there and hunt. With this, he would have to take all his courses, then sit at home and wait for 10 years before he could go hunting for elk.

As for preference points like in Alberta, I will refer you to Mr Thornton's answers on HBC's LEH questions thread that apparently many have not bothered to read. It's a sticky in this forum, by the way.


WHY BC DOES NOT USE A POINT PREFERENCE SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING L.E. HUNTS

Point preference systems and pool systems (which are very similar) are
used in a number of North American jurisdictions. Alberta uses a
system in which points are accumulated each time an individual applies
unsuccessfully. Draws are preferentially given to those with the most
points first; the second most points second, and so on. When the system
reaches a point level where there are more applicants than remaining
available licences, the available licences are randomly assigned at that
point level. Upon being drawn, an applicant's points are deleted and
they start accumulating from zero again.

In 2005, Alberta had 213,749 applications for 71,950 available licences,
with overall average odds of 2.97 to 1. With such odds, on average,
applicants would be drawn roughly every 3 years even in a completely
random system. In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1,
nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.

If you examine Alberta's hunts in detail, you find that some of their
hunts are very easy to get, with many hunts in their WMU's actually
going undersubscribed. Eleven of their twenty-three categories have a
20% or better overall success rate (ie, odds of 5 to 1 or better),
encompassing 168,613 of their total 213,749 applications (79%). For
these hunts, their system will work very nicely, with people getting
drawn once every 5 years or better. However, with their high odds hunts,
it's a different story. If you want to hunt sheep in Alberta, you will
wait many years to reach the highest point level. In fact, some of
Alberta's sheep and goat hunts are not on a priority system because they
recognize that the demand is so high that nobody would get to hunt until
they reached extreme age. Fortunately, relatively few of Alberta's LEH
opportunities have such high demand, so overall their system meets their
needs.

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.

One suggestion we have considered relates to periods of ineligibility.
For example, we could decide that once a person has drawn a particular
species, they are not allowed to apply for some period of time.
Unfortunately, for many hunts, even once in a lifetime opportunities
don't help much. Using bison as an example, up to 2006, 38,153 people
have applied for bison in all of the draws that have ever been offered,
but only 1,454 have ever been drawn. If those 1,454 individuals were
barred from ever applying again, that would still leave 36,699 people
applying for 79 licences in the 2006 draw... not much of an improvement.
Additionally, periods of ineligibility have been offered to the BC
Wildlife Federation, but disagreement around the length of such periods
is always intense.

THE BC APPROACH

In British Columbia, we have developed a system we call 'enhanced odds'.
Rather than reward unsuccessful applicants, we reduce the chances of
previously successful applicants. All applicants that are drawn have
their chances reduced by 50% in the following year. In the case of
successful applicants for moose and Roosevelt elk, their chances are
reduced by 66% for the following three draws. This is done for all
species except deer, and the method was developed with the approval of
the BC Wildlife Federation.

The beauty of this system is that it does not discriminate against first
time applicants and it self-adjusts according to demand. If very few
people apply for a given hunt, then the system will automatically adjust
the odds reduction to less than 50% (or less than 66% for moose and
Roosevelt elk). This does not happen very often, but there are always a
few hunts that have low subscription, so there is no point in denying
opportunity to any applicant. This system does not eliminate repeat
success, but it keeps it at a low level.

The two main concerns with point systems are the length of turn-over
time for high odds hunts and the potential for these turn-over times to
discourage hunter recruitment. That being said, introducing a point
system for the compulsory inspection species (caribou, goats, grizzlies
and sheep) may be feasible if hunters want it. These are not entry
level species, so lengthy wait times would not significantly discourage
hunter recruitment.

[bighornbob]

This what i think should be done in the LEH system in order for all to get picked. Say you have been putting in for one species without missing a year for 10 years ,then you would automatically get picked for that one species if you never missed a year in applying ,then everyone would get picked sooner or latter ,the ones that have got picked will not get picked again till there second ten years is up again . And if that is to short of a time frame ,then make it 15 years ,what ever will work. hunter1947.

Its already been pointed out that a point system would not work here for most animals becuase of the demand and the limited tags given out. If you have 100:1 odds and they give out 5 tags a year, thats 20 years to wait before you would get drawn. So a 15 year old kid gets his first license and he does the quick math a figures out he will be 35 before he gets a chance for a tag. Yah that will keep him hunting. With our system he can draw the first year, that will keep his hopes high. Look at the young kid that drew the Kamloops Indian Band sheep draw last year. At something like 300:1 and only one tag, do you really think he would have applied if you told him, he would never get a tag in your lifetime.

The LEH system is only a bonus hunt here in BC, plenty of places and animals to hunt else where.

BHB

[30-06]

so say if the odds were 6:5:1 is that good or bad..the higher numbers before the :1 mean good or bad?

[Fisher-Dude]

so say if the odds were 6:5:1 is that good or bad..the higher numbers before the :1 mean good or bad?

So do you mean 65:1, or 6:1, or 5:1? 65:1 means you have little hope of ever being drawn in your lifetime (1.5% chance each year)...5:1 is much better odds that you will get drawn (20% chance).

[30-06]

So do you mean 65:1, or 6:1, or 5:1? 65:1 means you have little hope of ever being drawn in your lifetime (1.5% chance each year)...5:1 is much better odds that you will get drawn (20% chance).

in this years synopsis on the inter net it says numbers like 10:5:1

[tmarschall]

Fisher-Dude... thanks for the explanation. It seems to sum up a complex issue rather well. But I fail to see where the point system will hurt hunter recruitment in the outyears. I can see how it will stop some people from making LEH applications. There are plenty of opportunities for hunting big game in BC without drawing an LEH. IMO it is the availability non-LEH species and areas that will affect hunter recruitment in the outyears. Proper game management has a bigger effect on hunter recruitment than LEH ever will. But thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it... putting that aside for a moment and thinking outside the box, I can see the "flaw" in the point system for LEH in BC because of the high demands for hunts. There is a simple solution, just take a certain percentage of the available tags and issue them on random draw. You have the advantage of the point system where eventually all people will be chosen, and yet you keep new hunter interest from the random drawing. The obvious flaw in the current BC system is that it is mathematically possible for a person to never be drawn. Granted the weighted average does mathematically "improve" the odds, but adding a touch of the benefits of the point system combined with a percentage of random draw would be a "New & Improved" LEH system for BC!

[Fisher-Dude]

in this years synopsis on the inter net it says numbers like 10:5:1

That must be 10.5:1, not 10:5:1. Maybe another misprint?

[hunter1947]

Its already been pointed out that a point system would not work here for most animals becuase of the demand and the limited tags given out. If you have 100:1 odds and they give out 5 tags a year, thats 20 years to wait before you would get drawn. So a 15 year old kid gets his first license and he does the quick math a figures out he will be 35 before he gets a chance for a tag. Yah that will keep him hunting. With our system he can draw the first year, that will keep his hopes high. Look at the young kid that drew the Kamloops Indian Band sheep draw last year. At something like 300:1 and only one tag, do you really think he would have applied if you told him, he would never get a tag in your lifetime.

The LEH system is only a bonus hunt here in BC, plenty of places and animals to hunt else where.

BHB Well then Alberta is doing something that we are not doing ,our manigement better go there and look on how they do there LEH draws ,because the all seam to get drawn after there 5th year applying for one bread of animal. hunter47.

[hunter1947]

They the management should be able to figure out a sestem were everyone would get picked in 15 years ,thats what we pay them for ,so they can sharpen there pencil and figure it out ,there soposs to be the experts when it comes to this kind of thing. You no once an old elk hunter told me once they put a LEH season on and certin animal it will allways be an LEH season ,when have they ever lifted the LEH in a region after being on it ???? i don't no of any ,do you ???. :roll: hunter47.

[hunter1947]

This would do absolutely NOTHING for the recruitment and retention of hunters. New hunters do not want to wait 10 years to hunt an elk. A kid getting into hunting just wants to get out there and hunt. With this, he would have to take all his courses, then sit at home and wait for 10 years before he could go hunting for elk.

As for preference points like in Alberta, I will refer you to Mr Thornton's answers on HBC's LEH questions thread that apparently many have not bothered to read. It's a sticky in this forum, by the way.


WHY BC DOES NOT USE A POINT PREFERENCE SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING L.E. HUNTS

Point preference systems and pool systems (which are very similar) are
used in a number of North American jurisdictions. Alberta uses a
system in which points are accumulated each time an individual applies
unsuccessfully. Draws are preferentially given to those with the most
points first; the second most points second, and so on. When the system
reaches a point level where there are more applicants than remaining
available licences, the available licences are randomly assigned at that
point level. Upon being drawn, an applicant's points are deleted and
they start accumulating from zero again.

In 2005, Alberta had 213,749 applications for 71,950 available licences,
with overall average odds of 2.97 to 1. With such odds, on average,
applicants would be drawn roughly every 3 years even in a completely
random system. In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1,
nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.

If you examine Alberta's hunts in detail, you find that some of their
hunts are very easy to get, with many hunts in their WMU's actually
going undersubscribed. Eleven of their twenty-three categories have a
20% or better overall success rate (ie, odds of 5 to 1 or better),
encompassing 168,613 of their total 213,749 applications (79%). For
these hunts, their system will work very nicely, with people getting
drawn once every 5 years or better. However, with their high odds hunts,
it's a different story. If you want to hunt sheep in Alberta, you will
wait many years to reach the highest point level. In fact, some of
Alberta's sheep and goat hunts are not on a priority system because they
recognize that the demand is so high that nobody would get to hunt until
they reached extreme age. Fortunately, relatively few of Alberta's LEH
opportunities have such high demand, so overall their system meets their
needs.

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.

One suggestion we have considered relates to periods of ineligibility.
For example, we could decide that once a person has drawn a particular
species, they are not allowed to apply for some period of time.
Unfortunately, for many hunts, even once in a lifetime opportunities
don't help much. Using bison as an example, up to 2006, 38,153 people
have applied for bison in all of the draws that have ever been offered,
but only 1,454 have ever been drawn. If those 1,454 individuals were
barred from ever applying again, that would still leave 36,699 people
applying for 79 licences in the 2006 draw... not much of an improvement.
Additionally, periods of ineligibility have been offered to the BC
Wildlife Federation, but disagreement around the length of such periods
is always intense.

THE BC APPROACH

In British Columbia, we have developed a system we call 'enhanced odds'.
Rather than reward unsuccessful applicants, we reduce the chances of
previously successful applicants. All applicants that are drawn have
their chances reduced by 50% in the following year. In the case of
successful applicants for moose and Roosevelt elk, their chances are
reduced by 66% for the following three draws. This is done for all
species except deer, and the method was developed with the approval of
the BC Wildlife Federation.

The beauty of this system is that it does not discriminate against first
time applicants and it self-adjusts according to demand. If very few
people apply for a given hunt, then the system will automatically adjust
the odds reduction to less than 50% (or less than 66% for moose and
Roosevelt elk). This does not happen very often, but there are always a
few hunts that have low subscription, so there is no point in denying
opportunity to any applicant. This system does not eliminate repeat
success, but it keeps it at a low level.

The two main concerns with point systems are the length of turn-over
time for high odds hunts and the potential for these turn-over times to
discourage hunter recruitment. That being said, introducing a point
system for the compulsory inspection species (caribou, goats, grizzlies
and sheep) may be feasible if hunters want it. These are not entry
level species, so lengthy wait times would not significantly discourage
hunter recruitment. Exspand the number of permits ,doubble them in hi populated areas ,or open up some areas for a two week period for a couple years then shut her down ,then continue others as the same. Have an LEH season at a different time frame ,there are ways i no there are ,they just got to think about it ,they are the experts not me :roll: . hunter47.

[kutenay]

LEH is beloved of wildlife "managers", as I posted because it gives the illusion that careful management of wildife is taking place, which it is not here in B.C. We have very questionable population data, minimal habitat improvement/retention/acquisition and serious poaching issues plus severe inpact on game numbers by certain "hunting"allowed by SOC decisions.

The MOE staff have to justify their annual budget and thus must appear to be "managing" our wildlife in our best interest; this is simply ludicrous given the percentage of rare game animals given to foreign-owned G/Os in certain regions of the Province. Where there IS LEH, there are NO "spare" animals for wealthy "Grand Slam Club" foreign hunters and the situation MUST be changed to maintain absolute resident priority to the fullest extent of the biologically appropriate AAH.

In the WK, many of the now resident Elk are there due to resident groups doing the "heavy lifting" to have them transplanted, "Trail Wildlife" was the most active. Thus, there should be a clear recognition that ONLY B.C. residents may hunt these animals and in a GOS which is adjusted to the conservation issues involved.

When we examine our northern Elk herds, we find that access to these is difficult and costly for the average BC hunter, yet, several G/Os harvest large numbers of these animals for their foreign clients every year as they do with Stone's Sheep, Caribou and so on. This means that residents are given less opportunity to hunt so that foreigners can kill our game AND these same G/Os, many of whom are foreigners, strongly advocate LEH and other restrictions on BC resident hunters, to THEIR financial advantage.

So, I favour an active campaign AGAINST LEH and eliminating foreign use of OUR wildlife so that WE can utilize what is ours. There is no need to eliminate GOS hunting here in B.C. IF the seasons and other factors are adjusted to meet conservation requirements. We DO NOT have ANY obligation to give up a portion of OUR wildlife/hunting opportunities so that foreign hunters can kill our game, B.C. is NOT some sort of "colony" and it's time we got far more serious abour protecting both our wildlife/environment AND our resident rights!

If, we don't do so, hunting has a pretty dim future here, IMHO.

[hunter1947]

LEH is beloved of wildlife "managers", as I posted because it gives the illusion that careful management of wildife is taking place, which it is not here in B.C. We have very questionable population data, minimal habitat improvement/retention/acquisition and serious poaching issues plus severe inpact on game numbers by certain "hunting"allowed by SOC decisions.

The MOE staff have to justify their annual budget and thus must appear to be "managing" our wildlife in our best interest; this is simply ludicrous given the percentage of rare game animals given to foreign-owned G/Os in certain regions of the Province. Where there IS LEH, there are NO "spare" animals for wealthy "Grand Slam Club" foreign hunters and the situation MUST be changed to maintain absolute resident priority to the fullest extent of the biologically appropriate AAH.

In the WK, many of the now resident Elk are there due to resident groups doing the "heavy lifting" to have them transplanted, "Trail Wildlife" was the most active. Thus, there should be a clear recognition that ONLY B.C. residents may hunt these animals and in a GOS which is adjusted to the conservation issues involved.

When we examine our northern Elk herds, we find that access to these is difficult and costly for the average BC hunter, yet, several G/Os harvest large numbers of these animals for their foreign clients every year as they do with Stone's Sheep, Caribou and so on. This means that residents are given less opportunity to hunt so that foreigners can kill our game AND these same G/Os, many of whom are foreigners, strongly advocate LEH and other restrictions on BC resident hunters, to THEIR financial advantage.

So, I favour an active campaign AGAINST LEH and eliminating foreign use of OUR wildlife so that WE can utilize what is ours. There is no need to eliminate GOS hunting here in B.C. IF the seasons and other factors are adjusted to meet conservation requirements. We DO NOT have ANY obligation to give up a portion of OUR wildlife/hunting opportunities so that foreign hunters can kill our game, B.C. is NOT some sort of "colony" and it's time we got far more serious abour protecting both our wildlife/environment AND our resident rights!

If, we don't do so, hunting has a pretty dim future here, IMHO. First step would be to stop the island guid outfiters from gettin one or two free permit for elk ,they use it to bring in alians at a hi price to hunt our elk hear on the island and throgh out the rest of
BC.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gifhunter47.

[steepNdeep]

This would do absolutely NOTHING for the recruitment and retention of hunters. New hunters do not want to wait 10 years to hunt an elk. A kid getting into hunting just wants to get out there and hunt. With this, he would have to take all his courses, then sit at home and wait for 10 years before he could go hunting for elk.

As for preference points like in Alberta, I will refer you to Mr Thornton's answers on HBC's LEH questions thread that apparently many have not bothered to read. It's a sticky in this forum, by the way.


We can all read, but some of us can think for ourselves... ;)

That's the great thing about this province. If you want to, you can hunt almost any big game animal in a GOS every year!! AND for almost everyone, it's within' a day's drive! That alone should recruit and retain hunters in this province!

I've only been hunting with a rifle for 5 years. When I started, I didn't give a sh!t about trophy areas. As my knowledge and passion grew for the sport, I developed an appreciation for the skill it takes to consistently find mature animals. I think that's probably the case with most new hunters...

I believe that some of the LEH areas that can't sustain a GOS, should be put on some hybrid form of a points system, where you build up preference points. A portion of the allotted tags could stay lottery to keep those 6-49 hopes alive... 8)

[steepNdeep]

In the WK, many of the now resident Elk are there due to resident groups doing the "heavy lifting" to have them transplanted, "Trail Wildlife" was the most active. Thus, there should be a clear recognition that ONLY B.C. residents may hunt these animals and in a GOS which is adjusted to the conservation issues involved.

We DO NOT have ANY obligation to give up a portion of OUR wildlife/hunting opportunities so that foreign hunters can kill our game, B.C. is NOT some sort of "colony" and it's time we got far more serious abour protecting both our wildlife/environment AND our resident rights!

If, we don't do so, hunting has a pretty dim future here, IMHO.

I agree, with Kutenay in some aspects. We need to protect our resident hunting opportunities, especially on game populations that have been resurrected due to local efforts.

[JohnS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kutenay
In the WK, many of the now resident Elk are there due to resident groups doing the "heavy lifting" to have them transplanted, "Trail Wildlife" was the most active. Thus, there should be a clear recognition that ONLY B.C. residents may hunt these animals and in a GOS which is adjusted to the conservation issues involved.

We DO NOT have ANY obligation to give up a portion of OUR wildlife/hunting opportunities so that foreign hunters can kill our game, B.C. is NOT some sort of "colony" and it's time we got far more serious abour protecting both our wildlife/environment AND our resident rights!

If, we don't do so, hunting has a pretty dim future here, IMHO.Quote


I would have to agree! I been in the WK for over 20yrs

[bighornbob]

When we examine our northern Elk herds, we find that access to these is difficult and costly for the average BC hunter, yet, several G/Os harvest large numbers of these animals for their foreign clients every year as they do with Stone's Sheep, Caribou and so on. This means that residents are given less opportunity to hunt so that foreigners can kill our game AND these same G/Os, many of whom are foreigners, strongly advocate LEH and other restrictions on BC resident hunters, to THEIR financial advantage.

How is the above statement unfair to BC residents. You say it is "difficult and costly for the average BC hunter" how is this the problem of the G/O. If you dont want to spend 2000 dollars to get into a remote area dont, but thats not the guides fault. I find it "difficult and costly" to buy a new 65,000 pickup so I dont. I drive an older model that I can afford, but I am not blaming the big dealerships for selling $60,000 trucks.

Personally I would like the north to remain remote and hard to access it gives it the appeal of a real hunt the way I see it. If there was a million miles of road so everybody could afford to access it and shoot animals from the road or hike a couple kms to a remote basin it would be called the East Kootemays and we already have that. I cant afford to go every year as it is expensive so when i go I treasure the time up north. But this does not have anything to do with g/o bringing in foreign money to kill our animals in areas that have a regular season.

BHB

[kutenay]

I think that you need to re-read my post; I AM and have always been both in favour of and active in the preservation of large wilderness areas, since my teens in 1960. The East Kootenays ARE an example of EXACTLY what I do NOT want to see happen ANYWHERE else in B.C. and I was THERE circa '65-67 as Kaiser Resources and the W.A.C. Bennett administration began the stripmining we see today which has "roaded"most of that fabulous area.

I have lived in both the Elk and Flathead Valleys, alone in the bush for extensive periods and knew many genuine oldtimers from the original families, so, I know what it was once like, as I do the West Kootenays and I grieve our loss in those regions. I can remember the Lardeau BEFORE the Duncan Dam, knew Billy Clarke at Howser and the quality of hunting/fishing there was unreal and will NEVER be re-instituted.......

The G/Os up north continually lobby for restrictions on we residents, they control air access by exclusive contracts with local air carriers and also have the "packers"now so tightly regulated that MOST residents cannot reasonably hunt there. Yet, they are allowed to build luxury lodges, with electricity, flush toilets and various other attributes of "civilization"in OUR wilderness and they send the profits out of BC as well as buying supplies in Alberta, etc. to save money. So, this foreign money does NOT benefit US and the substantial harvest by foreign hunters reduces the available game for residents.

THAT is the problem and it will continue to degrade YOUR hunting opportunities, IF, you and I and others allow it to. I CAN afford guided hunts there, or wherever and am 60 with no children, so, it is NOT my own future I am concerned about as I hunt where I please, when I please; I am concerned about the younger residents coming up and what they are losing, as, IMHO, you should be because you are not able to hunt there very often NOW and it WILL get worse.

I have posted what I think relevant to this topic, I have seen hunting here in BC from the 1950s to the present and I KNOW that GOS with appropriate restrictions on access, harvest numbers and sex/antler restrictions PLUS the environmental factors will do far more to ensure the average hunter's chances and the subsistence of our game pops. than LEH, the GOABC or the various foreign-based trophy orgs. will ever do and that's what I consider important.

[Rainwater]

And in the future only the Kings will hunt. Every year the price goes up for a foreigner to hunt and your beloved gov't will be watching that very closely. Your measly tags will be 10 fold and access will be very limited, LEH vs GOS, the ice is very thin for me. Only a very few places could or should stay this way and if I truly thought LEH was undermining hunting in our Province I will change my tune immediately. We are allowed to do that, arent' we?

[Gateholio]

They the management should be able to figure out a sestem were everyone would get picked in 15 years ,thats what we pay them for ,so they can sharpen there pencil and figure it out ,there soposs to be the experts when it comes to this kind of thing. You no once an old elk hunter told me once they put a LEH season on and certin animal it will allways be an LEH season ,when have they ever lifted the LEH in a region after being on it ???? i don't no of any ,do you ???. :roll: hunter47.

There is a thread about LEH questions, and the points system is decribed in detail. You may wish to look at it.

Turkey used ot be on LEH, now it's GOS. Same for whitetails.

[ohno]

when have they ever lifted the LEH in a region after being on it ????

Region 5 Moose - for a very limited time. It was open for Immatures.

O.

[Elkhound]

Region 5 Moose - for a very limited time. It was open for Immatures.

O.

For what.....like a total of 2 months I think:lol:

[Fisher-Dude]

Region 5 Moose - for a very limited time. It was open for Immatures.

O.

That season was pulled because the First Nations complained about it.

Region 5 supported a GOS any bull moose for years and years when we had twice the number of hunters we do now. LEH came in when there were tick concerns. What the hell is their excuse now for LEH?

[30-06]

That must be 10.5:1, not 10:5:1. Maybe another misprint?

maybe thats it..so if the number before the 1 is high the better chance you have of getting one?

[Fisher-Dude]

maybe thats it..so if the number before the 1 is high the better chance you have of getting one?

Nope. Other way around. The higher the number, the worse your chances are of being drawn.

Tell your math teacher it's time they covered probabilities in school, 'cause it's something every good LEH hunter needs to know! :wink:

[hunter1947]

Hears another one i will throw your way. Open all areas for one year were ever there is an leh on elk ,open it up for 6x6 or better ,then everyone could go were they want ,,fair game. Then everyone would get picked. Then after that years over go back to the draw . Just forget all these fancy numbers ,i don't like them.:frown: hunt47.

[Elkhound]

Hears another one i will throw your way. Open all areas for one year were ever there is an leh on elk ,open it up for 6x6 or better ,then everyone could go were they want ,,fair game. Then everyone would get picked. Then after that years over go back to the draw . Just forget all these fancy numbers ,i don't like them.:frown: hunt47.

LOL...I'm in Wayne....I have a nice Rosie bull elk over here with my name on it:lol:

[dana]

The fact we are living in the good ol' days right in the here and now needs to be address. Ungulate populations are booming in BC and this is a good thing. The rest of Western North America is not experiencing this. They are seeing their game populations decrease to all time lows, and we are seeing our populations at all time highs. Yet our hunter numbers are dropping at a drastic rate. Why???? The ministry isn't letting us hunt is the short and sweet of it. LEH is killing off our hunters. There are very few areas where we really need to maintain LEH for the health of the herds. Sure there are some species in some areas that are struggling, but they are few when it comes to the overall species and units under the LEH program. If the government is truely wanting to get hunter numbers back up, they need to start walking the talk.

[ohno]

LEH = $$$$

I don't see it going anywhere soon. With shrinking budgets all government ministries are looking for additional sources of revenue. Raising license fees is not a good way to recruit new hunters, so a lottery system is an easier "sell" to the hunting public. Bison and Island Elk are two long shots that a lot of people put in for every year Just In Case. It is easy $$.

O.

[GoatGuy]

Couple things I'd like to straighten out for this hijacked thread :lol: :

The proposed season was spawned by the current regional biologist - - it's his idea, so this isn't a case of MOE being against opportunity. He believes in resident hunters and that there is ABSOLUTELY NO CONSERVATION CONCERN.


So far as LEH goes

They get $5/applicant which goes into gen revenue
They get $25/tag for each elk tag

Average applicants for WK = around 4000*5= $20000

Elk tag = $25 .. therefore a break even of ~ 800 additional hunters (WK residents will blow this out of the water) who decide to hunt elk that wouldn't have otherwise means the cash is the same ~ this is only to the ministry. There will also be travel expenses, supplementary tags, etc.,

Nevermind the fact that those 4000 hunters will probably now put in for rosies because bull in the WK are on GOS - - so really there will be a significant net gain when it comes to revenue and the important part HCTF

Most importantly more opportunity = = MORE HUNTER NUMBERS

The minsitry's on board with this one guys, it's our job to research it, address our concerns and figure out if we agree with it and most importantly why?

[kutenay]

What are the EXACT terms of the proposed GOS, will it encompass 4-07, 4-08, 4-09, 4-15 and 4-19 or just a portion of these? I can see "some" tighter controls being left on certain parts of 4-16, but, would definitely support a GOS of two weeks to begin with in the above MUs.

I must stress that hunting bull Elk, say a minimum of 5 pts. to one side at least, in this country is really HARD work and I doubt that most hunters on most hunts will even SEE an Elk. I have hiked throughout this region and while finding fresh sign is pretty easy, getting up on a legal bull is not and even spotting one is fairly rare.

I think that actual kill rates will seldom exceed 5% of the population levels, in any given year and this is why I support the GOS.

[JohnS]

you forgot 4-17 :D in your list of MU's

[Rainwater]

Dana, IF (playing devils advocate here) Leh is killing hunting why are they so heavily subscribed too?? Your thoughts on that Sir. Now when the WK Leh is canned I am sure the Roosie boys will happy knowing that I and everyone else who hunts Elk is gonna chuck there name in the hat for $5, hey it's one less pint of Rickards Red. If we're gonna get rid of LEH get rid of it all, the same year.

[hunter1947]

Dana, IF (playing devils advocate here) Leh is killing hunting why are they so heavily subscribed too?? Your thoughts on that Sir. Now when the WK Leh is canned I am sure the Roosie boys will happy knowing that I and everyone else who hunts Elk is gonna chuck there name in the hat for $5, hey it's one less pint of Rickards Red. If we're gonna get rid of LEH get rid of it all, the same year. You hit the nail dead center Rainwater ,there will be tons of new elk for reincutment after that one year. canning the draw sestem for that one year will not hurt a darn thing.. hunter47.

[JohnS]

Well after trying for 15+ yrs at LEH in (4-17) WK( only thing I ever got was lots of disapointment in the LEH system) this sure would be a nice thing to happen, and yes maybe we will see a number increase for hunter's.

[Rainwater]

H1947, I'm sorry but I can't figure out which head of which nail I hit. All I referred to was if indeed the WK LEH was canned I along with MANY others will put in for the Roosies' on the Island further diminishing odds for locals there. I never have but have lots of friends who know where to go. Now your other point, I find it hard to believe that hunter recruitment will shoot through the roof if LEH is canned. Right now in our area Youth Hunters can hunt 9 days early with guns in the early bow season and now have from Nov. 11-18 to hunt rutting mule deer. Now we are waiting patiently on the recruitment bus to see if that will work but it hasn't to date. If we truly want hunter recruitement (TRULY) we need to offer Youth the whole season, very cheaply, any deer, appropriate weapons for that season. Maybe you were referring to me stating that all LEH's should be canned which I still don't beleive will help recruit new or old hunters. Great topic.

[Fisher-Dude]

If we truly want hunter recruitement (TRULY) we need to offer Youth the whole season, very cheaply, any deer, appropriate weapons for that season.

In other words, for those who can't read between Rainy's lines, he doesn't want kids with guns anywhere near HIS coveted bow only season. There is no evidence in BC to support his rationale of the cheapo tag with restrictive seasons aiding recruitment.

The evidence we have is that LEH is shown to kill hunter numbers. Goat Guy's hunter survey proved it by the responses he received from both current and former hunters. The fall in hunter numbers, by half, that coincided with the widespread closure of GOS that was replaced with LEH seasons also proved it.

Dana is actually the one who nailed it. We have booming game populations, restrictive/LEH seasons with which to hunt them, and falling hunter numbers. GOS is needed to replace LEH where there are no conservation concerns (most species in most all MUs across BC). GOS will bring former hunters back into the fold who left when (as an example) their elk hunting went from GOS to 100:1 LEH, and kids who don't want to wait 100 years to hunt those elk.

[Rainwater]

Fisher-Dude, Or was that -rude. No it is not my BOW SEASON, I never even mentioned a bow season. But Hell while we are on the topic maybe we should look at how popular bow seasons are and also check out a few local 3D shoots and activities at schools. FD, see much handgun and rifle shooting at a school near you. Did you happen to see that there are almost 9000 bowhunters in BC and that's on a voluntary basis or checkbox at the retailer. That was intuitive of you to suggest that there is no evidence that a Youth Season will work in BC 'cause there never was one. Point that should be driven home is the present adhoc Youth seasons have done nada, nothing, zero to increase numbers to the level that the gov't wants, they can't and won't. Since your on the evidence trail, if LEH's were canned all over BC to aid in recruitment and there was evidence of that then I'm all for it. A survey proves nothing, hard figures do. Goatguy also states that 3% of the population are trophy hunters so WHY offer Youth a Mule Deer Hunt during the rut from Nov. 11-18?? I am sure glad my kids didn't stay home cause they didn't pull an LEH. I looked at a sheep LEH today and it's 606.0 to 1, thats gonna be one old kid by the time he gets his draw. This thread is now officially hijacked and NO IT IS NOT MY BOW SEASON, ITS MY GRANDKIDS BOWSEASON!!!!!

[hunter1947]

I doubt that the LEH system is killing the new recruitment for young hunters. One cause of no new recruitment is the new generation ,kids are wrapped up in video games that we did not have when we were young ,they the parents have to put out lots of money for the core course and the hunting course ETC ,then they have to buy a firearm ETC. The bottom line is that it just isn't like it was 20 years ago. hunter47.

[hunter1947]

H1947, I'm sorry but I can't figure out which head of which nail I hit. All I referred to was if indeed the WK LEH was canned I along with MANY others will put in for the Roosies' on the Island further diminishing odds for locals there. I never have but have lots of friends who know where to go. Now your other point, I find it hard to believe that hunter recruitment will shoot through the roof if LEH is canned. Right now in our area Youth Hunters can hunt 9 days early with guns in the early bow season and now have from Nov. 11-18 to hunt rutting mule deer. Now we are waiting patiently on the recruitment bus to see if that will work but it hasn't to date. If we truly want hunter recruitement (TRULY) we need to offer Youth the whole season, very cheaply, any deer, appropriate weapons for that season. Maybe you were referring to me stating that all LEH's should be canned which I still don't beleive will help recruit new or old hunters. Great topic. We got a misunderstanding ,what i meant is if they opened up the season for all elk for one year for 6x6 or bigger with no LEH that it would not hurt the recruitment for the up coming elk ,like juveniles. :-? hunter47.

[hunter1947]

There i fixed it up http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif hunter47.

[Fisher-Dude]

Did you happen to see that there are almost 9000 bowhunters in BC and that's on a voluntary basis or checkbox at the retailer.

There are bowhunters because rifle hunters who have been restricted during LEH and GOS have taken up bows to increase their opportunity(ies) to pursue game. And if other retailers are doing what the dumbasses are doing where I buy my tags, they are checking the "Bowhunter" box for everyone, whether they are bowhunters or not...because the retailers that I deal with are bowhunters. Mine is checked off despite my not being a bowhunter (yet), and others in my group have noticed the same thing.


Goatguy also states that 3% of the population are trophy hunters so WHY offer Youth a Mule Deer Hunt during the rut from Nov. 11-18??

Is this sour grapes because of your proposal for a bow-only season during that timeframe being tossed out by the MoE this year? You are now jaded at an opportunity for youth to hunt mule deer in the rut because your proposal so that you could bowhunt during that period was not accepted? You want to bowhunt that period but have something against a kid with a gun out at the same time? Youth hunting mule deer during the rut has nothing to do with trophy hunting, it has to do with getting kids out during a time that they may have a better chance at success.


A survey proves nothing, hard figures do.

The survey was designed scientifically to sample the population with an adequate sample size to determine the views/opinions of the entire population. It provides accuracy to within + or - 3% 19 times out of 20. I'm a numbers guy, and in my opinion, the results of the survey accurately reflect the views of all hunters/former hunters. It also echoed the opinions of the majority people with whom I have spoken with personally.

I get my favourite elk hunting areas virtually to myself in the fall...now that the only moose hunting there is on LEH at 35:1 and 45:1 odds. All the "old regulars" and their families are gone. Some no longer hunt, some that I have kept in touch with get out a couple of weekends a year for whitetails instead of their 2 weeks moose/elk/sheep hunting and avid deer hunting all season. That is hard evidence of LEH killing hunter participation.

[dana]

Rainwater,
It ain't rocket science to see the corrilation between lost hunting opportunities when units are put on LEH and dropping hunter rates. LEH's aren't popular, instead they are forced upon the masses as the only way to play the game. One doesn't need a hunting licence to play the lotto. All one needs is a hunter #. Many put in hoping for that rare chance they might just get to hunt like they did in the good ol' days. Anything over 5:1 odds is a crapshoot. If unsuccessful in the draw, many stay home. Moose hunting is a prime example. Where can you moose hunt cheaply in this province? Doing the Alcan trip is not in the cards for many hunters. Years ago, moose pops in the interior were hurting, thus LEH became the management tool. Now, moose populations are Booming (to the determent of other species like the southern Mountain Caribou) and yet we aren't seeing any added hunting opportunties. In fact, numerous units have a drop in tags. Why??? Well, I think it is simple math. You can't get hoards of people heading North to control their ungulate pops if you let out too many tags in the south right???? It is a simple concept of transfering pressure from one area to another. How can the Peace get the hunter numbers needed to kill their deer and elk and moose, when the Cariboo has a ton of doe tags let out to accomplish the same objective in that area??? Get them to come up and hunt moose, elk and antlerless deer all at the same time and you will have better success. But all they are doing is moving the more dedicated or desperate hunter's from one area to another. Those that can't afford to go North, stay home and hope against all odds that they may encounter a spike/fork or they don't hunt.
The solution is that we need to stop micromanaging, unless absolutely needed. I've been told numerous times by those in the know that Region 3 could handle an open moose season, yet there is fear that if you open it up, the hoards from the Coast and the Okanagan will hit it hard because it is closer than the Peace. Why must we only be thinking so small? Why can't Region 5 be open at the same time as Region 3, thus spreading out the hunting presure. This would give more quality hunts as well cause the vast majority of hunters do not like hunting in the zoo like conditions when you jam every one into one area. The same can be applied to elk. There is no need for LEH trophy hunts. Since when should the only thing hard about trophy hunting be just drawing the tag???? If you are a trophy hunter, you'll find the big bulls, cause you'll get away from everyone else. BC is vast and there are plenty of places for critter's to grow old and never encounter hunting presure, even in the units that are the most popular. The die hard trophy hunter knows this and he thinks outside the box. Open up the West Koots might see more big bulls killed cause some of us will actually work for them and they won't be dying of old age anymore.

[bayou]

Yes this thread is starting to get a little wild but you will never get everyone to agree, for me I dont think LEH has anything to do with dropping hunter #s and I would like to see more. I would like to see changes to the system but sounds like they dont want to try systems that seem to work else where so we will never no. I would like to see higher fees up front to weed out those that dont really care. (example when I wanted to hunt desert sheep and I think its the same for all states but I chose Nevada it was about 1000 dollars to apply but you got it back except for application fee if you were unsucessfful)
Kutenay I use to feel kinda sorry for you for every one usally jumps on you but to me your comments jump all over contradicting them selves.
Goat guy it sounds like your your the one concerned on how its gona affect me(you) others just want to go on a hunt, and if its a # thing get the rossevelt off LEH theres a heck of a lot more people there.
I also think its weird to be using the children comments
as a way to get it changed.
Now getting off topic to me hunting is hunting no matter what method used or age I dont think there should be special seasons for bow or youth etc I do think there should be some stipulations for the phsyically handicapped.
In saying this heres a thought since some people do like to hunt for a larger animal have the WK LEH for 6 point or better for the month of sept then GOS for cows and 5 point or less in oct. I can only guess that those that are against LEH dont apply for them for you would be supporting something you dont want.

[dana]

Bayou,
When you think in those terms, hunting will be great won't it? No competition, you weed out all those loosers that can't hack it. Hunting opportunities for the serious hunter suddenly get better right? But.....the more you weed out, the quieter our voice in Victoria, the louder the voice of the antis, the less hunting opportunies right?????

[kutenay]

THAT is exactly what WILL happen and IS happening now. IF, we had MORE hunters, as I have said, we would have greater political clout and thus be able to obtain more funding for wildlife management programmes as well as enforcement.

All of the debate here and complaints elsewhere will not do jacksquat to motivate vote-hungry politicians to begin to treat wildlife management in B.C. as a priority issue. The radical pseudo-environmentalists such as that Genovali, Tzeporah Berman, PETA and others who have almost certainly never spent a single night alone in the bush ARE getting the favourable media attention, political action and public donations of $$$$$ BECAUSE they distort ecological situations and thus HAVE large numbers of supporters who can VOTE.

WE can do as much, but, we need to take a simple, practical approach to these issues and encouraging greater participation in hunting by ANY means that is ecologically and morally acceptable is the place to begin.

Some desire to hunt trophies, others meat and some just want a chance at a legal animal within a distance from home that they have time for and can afford; I think that carefully timed GOS hunting will give the maximum opportunities for all of these and also help to recruit new hunters.

Bayou, I don't see where I am contradictory, must be getting older than I want to admit, but, my opinions on resident hunting, conservation and equality among ALL resident hunters are/have been the same since I first got onto the 'net. I AM, however, open to modifying my opinions when/where someone posts information superior to any that I may have, so, maybe you can point out what is contradictory to me? I am deeply commited to conservation and also to resident hunter's rights and am interested in all aspects of this discussion.

[Clint_S]

I think there is a decided lack of imagination in prescribing LEH quotas. I don't understand why an area being managed for trophy bulls like the WK apparently is can't use some creativity when managing harvest. A GOS for 3 pt only could be followed by a 5 pt only the next and a spike only the next etc. etc. Typical hunter success rates and difficult access would necessarily limit harvest so an age class would not be unduly affected and you wouldn't end up with a situation like in the EK where an entire age class (>6 pt) is entirely missing. The trophy animals would still be protected by LEH but there would be animals available to hunt from year to year and if success rates were to high (covered by compulsory inspection) the season would be closed for some time frame.

I don't know if the powers that be think we are unable to follow changes in regulation from year to year or they are just to dull to creatively manage an elk population to allow for hunter opportunity and healthy game populations.

[dana]

Koot,
Even though we seem to seldom agree on many things, I totally agree with ya on this one.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy also states that 3% of the population are trophy hunters so WHY offer Youth a Mule Deer Hunt during the rut from Nov. 11-18??

For opportunity - this hunt was suggested as an any deer hunt, not a trophy hunt (runt hunt). Extra week for kids - period. It was supported by the overwhelming majority in the region because they believe in the future of hunting.


Since your on the evidence trail, if LEH's were canned all over BC to aid in recruitment and there was evidence of that then I'm all for it. A survey proves nothing, hard figures do.

Per the usual, hijacked.

That paper proved that LEH has killed off hunter numbers through survey, secondary research of other jurisdictions, ours and hard data. It was NOT specifically pointed out because - - it's already well known by the folks in Victoria.

Lottery type systems have been shown to kill off hunter numbers in all parts of the world - - period! Read any research paper on participation throughout North America or Europe. I've already provided you with hundreds of links over the past year, none of which, I'm positive, you've read.

There isn't much room in 80 pages for what is already fact (the ministry's well aware of it); it's easy to show moving from GOS to LEH killed off hunter numbers - I was looking at stuff that isn't that easy to measure as 'scientific fact' (I use that term loosely).

You need not look any farther than harvest stats and follow hunter numbers through the database - that's easy and doesn't require any 'real time' research. GOS to LEH, hunters drop out, GOS to LEH, hunters drop out. Hunters drop out and their kids don't take up hunting, hunters drop out and their kids don't take up hunting = no hunters left.

People want opportunity to hunt every single year and they want it in their backyard or in their "traditional" spot (usually where they grew up or where their dad took them hunting as a kid). The overwhelming majority hunt for meat, meat, meat - not antlers/horns/hides or sculls.

They want opportunity in their own backyard. Most of them hunt weekends and a lot of hunters can't and don't take weeks on end to travel out of region. Kids are in school, others in universities and parents have kids and limited holidays. Opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time, opportunity and time. If they don't have opportunity they'll quit, especially if it's taken away from them.

The folks who are looking for bigger critters will do it any day of the week; they do not need supplementary seasons, LEH or antler/horn/access restrictions - that's fact. The lazy "trophy" hunters will complain and want things shutdown, roads closed, antler restrictions put up and LEH implemented. They only complain when it's their backyard/spot or an area where they've hunted - NO.1 is the only number. Neither one of these hunters will ever quit hunting regardless of seasons - despite whining and crying for the latter.

I'm the kind of hunter who looks for good animals; generally get to hunt 3 weeks in the spring and 3-4 in the fall (much more in the past). I hunt regions 3,4,8 and atleast one of 6,7A,7B every year - booklet full of friggen' tags and I normally don't shoot anything (other than with the video cam)! The guys and girls that I hunt with shoot a lot of critters every year, we get plenty of video and have all kinds of fun.

Having said that: if I or anyone I hunt with have to fly, drift, hike, boat, snowshoe or bike an extra 20 kms more than I already do every weekend to find the critter I'm looking for I don't care - - I'm for hunting and hunters FIRST. I know what it's going to take to rebuild hunter numbers and if that means sacrificing all of my spots and the animals I pursue so other's are successfull I don't care.

We don't compete with kids; infact we tell them exactly where to go and we take them and their parents out. We tell them where our stands and blinds are so their parents can take them in and hunt. We tell them where trails are and draw them maps. This often finds us in marginal spots when others are in the "hotspots"

If we run into just about anyone in the bush we'll tell them exactly where to go and give up our spot every single time. The same applies for many of the members on this board who consistently harvest and post pictures of whopper bears, mulies, white-tails and sheep. These same people have no problem sharing information with somebody's who's keen and has a good head on their shoulders. These are also guys who are all in favour of moving from LEH to GOS.


That is where the trail splits.


All you need to figure out is which fork you're on and which one you want to take.

[Deaddog]

Well said GG, I believe we as hunters have the responsiblility to pass on info (ie increase new hunters chances of success) in order to continue on with our way of life. A lot of the new hunters do not have a "mentor" and therefore I believe it is up to us as a collective group to bring along the new guys and at the same time keep our hunting numbers up. Yes the gov't can do things to help as well but in the meantime "fiddling while rome burns" is not helping the cause!:lol:

[ohno]

GG I think you must be a carpenter, because you hit the nail on the head with post #117.

What you said makes sense. For what it's worth BC has some of the longest GOS for most big game animals in NA. I also agree that new hunter recruitment and retention is the only way we will keep hunter numbers up. I think the number one way of doing this is through OPPORTUNITY. How this is done I'm not sure.

This is why a GOS in WK Elk should be seen as an Opportunity for Kootenay residence to get out and chase an Elk in their backyard.

O.

[Rainwater]

I like the way you guys are explaining yourselves. Calm, cool and without berating other people for their thoughts. I guess although some (probably most) view the WK as a trophy hunt when I did get to go there what impressed me most was the quality of the hunt. Do you guys believe that quality and trophy mean the same thing.? As I have said in a prior post also if there are no conservation concerns then can all LEH for Elk Province wide at the same time.

[Rainwater]

Fisher-Dude, There was no discussion on bow issues at the regional (8)meeting as bowhunting regulation changes are on hold until the new harvest strategy is re-written. You are right that there has been a request to have a bowseason for mulies from Nov. 11-Dec. 10th. There is no biological reason for bowhunters not to not enjoy that season. The youth proposal is just another adhoc season brought forward under the disguise of Youth recruitement, still can't figure out how 3 extra days (one is Rememberance Day) is going to bring hoards of new hunters out of the weeds. I think bowhunters in this province are probably gonna have to get used to kids shooting guns in the BOWONLY seasons because that's what the BCWF wants. Now you have hijacked this thread uncivily twice so I will let you carry on.

[BCrams]

I like the way you guys are explaining yourselves. Calm, cool and without berating other people for their thoughts. I guess although some (probably most) view the WK as a trophy hunt when I did get to go there what impressed me most was the quality of the hunt. Do you guys believe that quality and trophy mean the same thing.? As I have said in a prior post also if there are no conservation concerns then can all LEH for Elk Province wide at the same time.

As previously stated. The quality of the hunt you experienced in the WK can be had virtually anywhere in the province with unpressured elk.

[Fisher-Dude]

I think bowhunters in this province are probably gonna have to get used to kids shooting guns in the BOWONLY seasons because that's what the BCWF wants. Now you have hijacked this thread uncivily twice so I will let you carry on.

And the start of the hijack is:


Right now in our area Youth Hunters can hunt 9 days early with guns in the early bow season and now have from Nov. 11-18 to hunt rutting mule deer. Now we are waiting patiently on the recruitment bus to see if that will work but it hasn't to date.

This thread has nothing to do with bowhunters. It has to do with getting rid of a grossly restrictive LEH system that has decimated hunter ranks. There is NO conservation concern in the WK for elk, or for most other ungulate species that are on LEH throughout the province. It's time the gun-shy biologists get past their fears of being labelled the next DiMarche and show that they support hunter recruitment by allowing families to hunt ungulate species in their home areas in a GOS.

[hunter1947]

I know why they have LEH ,it's because the guid outfitters want them the animals all to them selfs. :frown: hunter47.

[Rainwater]

I don't understand the "treed" comment, not a cat hunter, esplain please. BCRams, Agree totally, there is certainly places to find unpressured Elk somewhere in BC. I don't understand why some people goe berzerk when I mention how the gov't is attempting to increase Youth Numbers with a late Rut Mule Deer season for Youth in Region 8 from Nov. 11-18. These adhoc seasons have done nothing to increase hunter numbers since inception, even GG can point to that. I would still like to know peoples opinions on if they feel quality and trophy are the same thing.

[one-shot-wonder]

I know why they have LEH ,it's because the guid outfitters want them the animals all to them selfs. :frown: hunter47.

The last time I checked the Guide outfitters Assoc. wasn't a government agency in Victoria????

Since when do the GOBC make decisions for the WHOLE province on regulations & Allocations........Good one!:lol:

If you want to blame anyone you should blame the green peacing, tree hugging, over conservative bioligists that work for MOE!:mad:

[hunter1947]

You would be surprised on what inpute they the GOBC have there say in the hunting regulations.:cry: hunter47.

[hunter1947]

I don't understand the "treed" comment, not a cat hunter, esplain please. BCRams, Agree totally, there is certainly places to find unpressured Elk somewhere in BC. I don't understand why some people goe berzerk when I mention how the gov't is attempting to increase Youth Numbers with a late Rut Mule Deer season for Youth in Region 8 from Nov. 11-18. These adhoc seasons have done nothing to increase hunter numbers since inception, even GG can point to that. I would still like to know peoples opinions on if they feel quality and trophy are the same thing. Quality and Tropy there all the same for the new and up coming reincrutment ,it don't matter to them what they shoot. hunter47,.

[GoatGuy]

I know why they have LEH ,it's because the guid outfitters want them the animals all to them selfs. :frown: hunter47.

There are very few outfitters in the WK and most of the MU's don't have g-o.

LEH was implemented conservation and it's now gone overboard and is being used as a crutch. As I said before, there is a move in Victoria and in the regions to move from LEH back to GOS BUT some residents are not taking it on for various reasons.

[GoatGuy]

As I have said in a prior post also if there are no conservation concerns then can all LEH for Elk Province wide at the same time.

Everywhere but rosies. Also probably have an LEH beginning in region 5 in the next couple years also.

[BCrams]

Everywhere but rosies. Also probably have an LEH beginning in region 5 in the next couple years also.

I agree. GOS for Rocky Mountain Elk everywhere except for Roosies.

Not often I will disagree with GG but Region 5 does not need / nor will it need to go on LEH for elk.

The herd is expanding into Region 5 at a fairly rapid rate from both sides of the Fraser River and in particular the Blackwater / Cottonwood River herds and south along the Fraser River. I believe they can open a GOS for 6 point bulls right now and it will not impact the southward movement from Region 7 along the major river corridors and in particular - up the Quesnel River right now.

[GoatGuy]

I like the way you guys are explaining yourselves. Calm, cool and without berating other people for their thoughts. I guess although some (probably most) view the WK as a trophy hunt when I did get to go there what impressed me most was the quality of the hunt. Do you guys believe that quality and trophy mean the same thing.? As I have said in a prior post also if there are no conservation concerns then can all LEH for Elk Province wide at the same time.

The quality of the hunt will still be there long after a GOS. There are hundreds of valleys that have absolutely no access, (including horse trails) in the WK. Might not be in the spot you hunted but most of the other MU's.

There are hundreds of opportunities all over the province for screaming bulls that aren't 100:1. The drive from the Okanagan is damn near the same distance, maybe a couple hours more and it's all GOS.

You need to hunt the other areas to know that though.

[GoatGuy]

I agree. GOS for Rocky Mountain Elk everywhere except for Roosies.

Not often I will disagree with GG but Region 5 does not need / nor will it need to go on LEH for elk.

The herd is expanding into Region 5 at a fairly rapid rate from both sides of the Fraser River and in particular the Blackwater / Cottonwood River herds and south along the Fraser River. I believe they can open a GOS for 6 point bulls right now and it will not impact the southward movement from Region 7 along the major river corridors and in particular - up the Quesnel River right now.

I don't disagree with you at all - we have to start somewhere though.

Same story, no money for census/pop estimates so it's gonna be up to residents to report their sightings and do the legwork. The folks (residents BCWF) in reg 5 are taking this upon themselves to get hunting opened.

I'd prefer to see it go straight to gos.

[Rainwater]

My first big bull (back then 320 was big) was shot in the Bull River (where else) in the mid '80's. Hunting was terrific but from then on it became somewhat of a gong show. The hunting might still be good there but some days it reminded of fishing for steelies on the Vedder. Aligning of opening dates, closing out LEHs' for all Elk would (I agree) disperse hunter pressure and may help get some of the old guys back, I will still argue that canning LEH's will not bring youngin's away from the Nintendo. A cheap licence, all season to harvest any deer and a few years with a mentor with no Core requirement is what is gonna get the young people involved. What I see in both endeavours, rifle and bow, is that young people are drawn towards archery, it's ease of use, lack of gov't redtape and although they might not all bowhunt we are converting then to our way of thinking which is hunting. The gov't wants 20,000 more hunters in the next 10 years, we have our work cut out for us.

[hunter1947]

There are very few outfitters in the WK and most of the MU's don't have g-o.

LEH was implemented conservation and it's now gone overboard and is being used as a crutch. As I said before, there is a move in Victoria and in the regions to move from LEH back to GOS BUT some residents are not taking it on for various reasons. Ua ,you no why ,because there all on LEH draw in the WK and the EK are open. hunter47.

[hunter1947]

My first big bull (back then 320 was big) was shot in the Bull River (where else) in the mid '80's. Hunting was terrific but from then on it became somewhat of a gong show. The hunting might still be good there but some days it reminded of fishing for steelies on the Vedder. Aligning of opening dates, closing out LEHs' for all Elk would (I agree) disperse hunter pressure and may help get some of the old guys back, I will still argue that canning LEH's will not bring youngin's away from the Nintendo. A cheap licence, all season to harvest any deer and a few years with a mentor with no Core requirement is what is gonna get the young people involved. What I see in both endeavours, rifle and bow, is that young people are drawn towards archery, it's ease of use, lack of gov't redtape and although they might not all bowhunt we are converting then to our way of thinking which is hunting. The gov't wants 20,000 more hunters in the next 10 years, we have our work cut out for us. What brings young recruitment into the hunting field is you and me and others that have the time and Passion to do so ,that's how they get into the hunting field http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.. hunter47.

[hunter1947]

I don't disagree with you at all - we have to start somewhere though.

Same story, no money for census/pop estimates so it's gonna be up to residents to report their sightings and do the legwork. The folks (residents BCWF) in reg 5 are taking this upon themselves to get hunting opened.

I'd prefer to see it go straight to gos. It don't help reporting your thoughts of what you see out there ,i have been there and done that ,they just brush it under the carpet and send you a nice little letter showing you there concern. :mad: hunt47.

[Fisher-Dude]

Bartell's passin' his pipe around again.

[Rainwater]

Pipe? That's why the spelling is bad, Thanks FD.

[hunter1947]

Pipe? That's why the spelling is bad, Thanks FD. Spelling on what ,LEH ,????. hunter47.

[horshur]

:) Guys---you all, at least most of ya, have the equipment to increase hunter numbers--I say ya get busy and do your part to insure recruitment for future generations. Surefire way of increasing hunter numbers:lol:

[hunter1947]

:) Guys---you all, at least most of ya, have the equipment to increase hunter numbers--I say ya get busy and do your part to insure recruitment for future generations. Surefire way of increasing hunter numbers:lol: I take out as many young fellas as i can when i go out camping on weekends i set up targets and get them shooting and all i talk about is hunting to them ,now they want to take the hunting and core course. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif hunter47.

[Fisher-Dude]

:) Guys---you all, at least most of ya, have the equipment to increase hunter numbers--I say ya get busy and do your part to insure recruitment for future generations. Surefire way of increasing hunter numbers:lol:

I gotta get a DATE first Andy! :lol: One that doesn't mind me bailing out to the mountains every chance I get. :wink:

[hunter1947]

This is how you get new recruitment into the hunting field ,hunter47.http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/car_006.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=4825&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)eincrutment

[Rainwater]

... or dirtbikin, right on!

[hunter1947]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/car_008.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=4827&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)

[hunter1947]

And this is one of there dirt bikes rainwater ,hunter47.

[Rainwater]

Looking for adoptees?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I gotta get a DATE first Andy! :lol: One that doesn't mind me bailing out to the mountains every chance I get. :wink:

You'd better get yourself another quad(preferably in PINK) just in case the right lady comes along. Take her for a nice first date quad hunt!:lol:
That should tell you something about her!!!8)

SSS

[hunter1947]

Looking for adoptees? LOL :lol: hunt47.

[boxhitch]

Take her for a nice first date quad hunt!:lol:

Probably tried that already, but she bailed, tired of keeping the truck warm while F-D was out hunting.
Maybe buy the two-up Can-am, she can check to see what your made of, and visa-versa.