Region 8 mule deer

[Centerfire]

Maybe a stupid question but...

Why does October not have a point requirement for antlers on mule deer in region 8? Both Sept and Nov require 4 points.

Any ideas?

Thanks.


-Centerfire

[Wick]

Think about it the other way around.

As of Sept 10 in regions 3, 5, parts of 6 and 7, and 8, you can only harvest the most mature muleys for the month and again Nov 1-Dec 10. The window for harvesting the larger selection of "any buck" in those regions is much shorter. The harvest is focused on the older deer for a longer period, if you can find them. This allows the younger bucks a chance to mature, mix with other herds, and propagate new genetics in the herds. If "all bucks" were open everywhere Sept 10-Dec 10, I am willing to bet that far fewer hunters would return empty handed and buck populations would be strongly impacted.

Wick

[rgn5hunt]

Maybe a stupid question but...

Why does October not have a point requirement for antlers on mule deer in region 8? Both Sept and Nov require 4 points.

Any ideas!

Thanks.


-Centerfire
Young buck deer in Sept are clueless for the first week of rifle season, so they have been given a break. November is rut time so the young bucks get a break. October, it's fair chase,,!

[Fisher-Dude]

It's a combination of opportunity and deer management.

Opportunity in that it allows a longer season.

Scientific deer herd management in that the healthiest deer herds have harvest across all age and sex classes.

[spear]

4 point deer aren't necessarily the most mature deer. A lot of evidence suggests that 4 point restriction seasons ebbs uo reducing the quality of bucks available. Just think about all the guys who are hunting for meat in Sept and Oct, they will shoot the first 4 point they can, regardless of age. Then in October young muleys get hammered. The population gets cut off at the knees on both ends.

[Fisher-Dude]

4 point deer aren't necessarily the most mature deer. A lot of evidence suggests that 4 point restriction seasons ebbs uo reducing the quality of bucks available. Just think about all the guys who are hunting for meat in Sept and Oct, they will shoot the first 4 point they can, regardless of age. Then in October young muleys get hammered. The population gets cut off at the knees on both ends.

Are you suggesting that we should be managing our deer for "quality" bucks (whatever that means) instead of for productivity and herd health?

[zippermouth]

Are you suggesting that we should be managing our deer for "quality" bucks (whatever that means) instead of for productivity and herd health?
just a question, would managing for "quality" insure a healthy heard? it would take away opportunity, possibly in the way of access restrictions or shorter season. but overall would the heard be healthier??

I was talking to someone in the know about what the best way to create more mule deer numbers, and he emphasized on creating better habitat. now that is great if projects like that are being done, but are they? the winter range in my neck of the woods hasn't burnt for many years, and the deer aren't there like they once were. because of lack of habitat, possibly a cycle?? who knows.

[Wick]

Dont disagree that 4 points are not the most mature out there, but you gotta start somewhere. Imagine if the regs only allows sept and nov hunts for 6 point muleys. That would guarantee a ton of hunting pressure on any buck GOSs.

[spear]

Agreed habitat restoration has to be high on the list, winter range is crucial.
If you have more mature.mule deer, regardless of their antler configuration, you will have more does being bred. I'm saying if there was a choice in Nov to shoot a mature old 3 point compared to a 2 yr old 4 point, I'll shoot the 3 all day. Let the young deer grow and breed. We can complain about opportunities but the reality is we have so many options province wide for mule deer seasons. I'm no expert, but all I keep hearing is how mule deer numbers are down and MOE Leo's doing the same thing.

[Fisher-Dude]

Agreed habitat restoration has to be high on the list, winter range is crucial.
If you have more mature.mule deer, regardless of their antler configuration, you will have more does being bred. I'm saying if there was a choice in Nov to shoot a mature old 3 point compared to a 2 yr old 4 point, I'll shoot the 3 all day. Let the young deer grow and breed. We can complain about opportunities but the reality is we have so many options province wide for mule deer seasons. I'm no expert, but all I keep hearing is how mule deer numbers are down and MOE Leo's doing the same thing.

Mule deer bucks are mature breeders at 18 months, and could be a spiker or forky. It doesn't have to be a big stud buck doing the breeding. Sperm supply is all that is needed. Older average age class does not mean more does get bred.

The critical measure is the buck : doe ratio. Provincial management is to 20 : 100. And there is no conservation concern until the buck : doe ratio drops down to about 6 or 7 : 100. At 10 : 100 there are still pregnancy rates north of 90%.

[Fisher-Dude]

just a question, would managing for "quality" insure a healthy heard? it would take away opportunity, possibly in the way of access restrictions or shorter season. but overall would the heard be healthier??

I was talking to someone in the know about what the best way to create more mule deer numbers, and he emphasized on creating better habitat. now that is great if projects like that are being done, but are they? the winter range in my neck of the woods hasn't burnt for many years, and the deer aren't there like they once were. because of lack of habitat, possibly a cycle?? who knows.

Bucks don't determine herd size. Fawn recruitment does, and habitat is key here.

Managing for "quality" actually results in poorer herd health. Targeting all your harvest on a single component of the population does not achieve a balance to spread harvest across age and sex classes.

[Sofa King]

don't complain.
or September may become 6-point, October 5-point, and November 4-point.

[spear]

So what happens if we are shooting all the deer with 4 point genetics, and the three and two point deer are doing all the breeding, does this equate to less 4 points in the future? Trying to understand the logic behind the 4 point restriction

[Ferenc]

In regards to the 4pt season especially the late season one ..I notice less hunters out in comparison to let's say the October long weekend any buck... So less pressure and lower harvest...just my opinion in the area I hunt

[Wick]

So what is your logic suggesting? GOS on all bucks all the time? 4+ points only? LEH only? On permaclose deer until all Muleys get 4+ points?

Im not sure why the current regs are an issue. Areas that have a higher pop of deer get a wider opening. Area where deer pops are pressured get increasingly restricted.

[Rob Chipman]

So, FD, if buck:doe ratios of 10:100 = 90% pregnancies you'd think that means lots of deer starting out (unless we're below the 10:100 ratio and I'm assuming we're not).

If we actually get 90% pregnancy rate there's going to be a fairly high birth rate, so then, like you say, it's recruitment, and you say habitat is the key.

That leads me to two questions. I've heard people talk about winter range as a habitat issue, but does fawn recruitment need a different type of habitat, and if so, what is that?

Second, there's lots of talk about predation, especially bears, as an obstacle to fawn recruitment. What can you say about that and does the habitat issue cross over?

[scoutlt1]

More of us should be taking advantage of Bear, Wolf, and Coyote seasons.......for starters...

[HarryToolips]

More of us should be taking advantage of Bear, Wolf, and Coyote seasons.......for starters...
exactly....

[HarryToolips]

Visual sightings as well as trail cams, I'm seeing a tonne of bucks...our seasons seem to be just fine to me folks..

[Rayne]

Anyone have any suggestions on a good starter location for bear in region 8 for bow season?

[.300WSMImpact!]

Visual sightings as well as trail cams, I'm seeing a tonne of bucks...our seasons seem to be just fine to me folks..

I have to agree, I am more about the big bucks, but there seems to be a lot of smaller younger bucks around, less big bucks but the heard does seem fine, lots of fawns

[Fisher-Dude]

So, FD, if buck:doe ratios of 10:100 = 90% pregnancies you'd think that means lots of deer starting out (unless we're below the 10:100 ratio and I'm assuming we're not).

If we actually get 90% pregnancy rate there's going to be a fairly high birth rate, so then, like you say, it's recruitment, and you say habitat is the key.

That leads me to two questions. I've heard people talk about winter range as a habitat issue, but does fawn recruitment need a different type of habitat, and if so, what is that?

Second, there's lots of talk about predation, especially bears, as an obstacle to fawn recruitment. What can you say about that and does the habitat issue cross over?

Winter range is vitally important for the little guys. They can't reach as high nor dig as deeply as the bigger deer. Thermal cover and rich browse really help them keep starvation away, and keeps them strong enough to outrun preds. Controlled burns help bring the browse back down to where the fawns can reach it.

Predator control would be great. There's no political appetite for it though, and hunters are a drop in the bucket on canines, a bit more effective on bears. We should all be out enjoying the spring weather and putting some bear sausages in the freezer. Crack a wolf if you can, but we need to kill ~80% of wolves every year for several years running to have an appreciable effect on populations.