2015 Top GOABC Guide Found Guilty of Baiting Grizzies

[Whonnock Boy]

http://www.theprovince.com/touch/news/bc/named+hunting+guide+found+guilty+hunting+grizzly+w ith+bait/11252595/story.html?rel=838332

BY DAN FUMANO, THE PROVINCE JULY 29, 2015
The man named B.C.’s top hunting guide for 2015 was months later found guilty of illegally hunting a grizzly with bait.
In March, Martin Thomas was named by the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. (GOABC) as the recipient of the Leland Award, recognizing “guide professionalism,” at the association’s annual general meeting in Kelowna.
Two weeks before the meeting, charges were sworn against Thomas in connection with a bear-hunting incident in September 2012 in northern B.C., according to filings in the Fort Nelson court registry.
Thomas was charged with hunting grizzly by placing or using bait, in violation of the Wildlife Act, as well as one count of illegally possessing the dead animal.
In June, Thomas was found guilty of using bait to hunt the bear and fined $3,500, at a trial in provincial court in Fort Nelson. He was acquitted on the second charge of possessing the dead grizzly without authorization. He was working as a guide at the time, and was found to be guilty because his American client shot the grizzly, according to the Conservation Officer Service.
Thomas was unavailable for comment, because he’s working as a guide in a remote part of the province until October.
GOABC executive director Scott Ellis said the charges “came to the attention of the GOABC after he won the award.”
The Leland received by Thomas, Ellis said, is “the highest award bestowed on a hunting guide, it’s quite a competition.”
Ellis said Thomas is “a longtime guide with a good reputation.”
Of the charge, Ellis said: “(It’s) a small distinction, hunting with bait or hunting near bait, in regards to bear hunting. I have some information on this charge, I don’t pretend to have it all.
“From what I understand, there was a carcass on the land and he knew it was there ... and I believe his client shot a bear.
“We were surprised to hear of the charges. He’s a character guy. The details around what happened there aren’t clear, at least to me, not yet. But I know he would not have placed a carcass,” Ellis said.
“Ironically, or coincidentally, he got the Leland Award and charged in the same year.”
The file goes back in court Aug. 10, said Criminal Justice Branch spokesman Neil MacKenzie, “to clarify the court’s intention with respect to disposition of the bear involved in the incident, which had been stuffed and mounted.”
The mounted grizzly was seized by the conservation service during their probe, and remains in their custody pending next month’s court date.
Micah Kneller, a conservation officer in Fort St. John, said: “Any animal that’s harvested unlawfully, we take it seriously.”
Different jurisdictions have different rules, Kneller said, and in B.C. it’s legal to hunt black bears and grizzlies, but not when the animal is over bait or near bait.
The rules are based on two factors, Kneller said. First, is “the fairness of the chase,” he said, the idea of an ethical and legal pursuit of an animal. Some people, Kneller said, view the use of bait as “not really sporting.”

Second, there is a safety element to banning bear-hunting with bait, he said, “to avoid getting bears habituated to garbage and food.”
Kneller said, in his experience, most professional guide outfitters in B.C. operate in a legal and ethical manner.
In this case, Kneller said, the defendant “was found guilty in a court of law. They intentionally hunted the bear over bait, and they know that they’re not allowed to do that. That’s why we kind of shake our heads at it.”
The GOABC Code of Ethics and Standards reads: “A member must be familiar with the Wildlife Act and other related statutes and the regulations enacted there under, and at all times shall be in a good position to advise both employees and customers of their rights and responsibilities while under his jurisdiction.”
The hunting of grizzlies in B.C., while legal, is more controversial than other kinds of hunting, Kneller said.
The Wilderness Committee is one Canadian group “absolutely opposed” to the grizzly hunt, said Joe Foy, the committee’s national campaign director. “Until such time as we get grizzly-bear hunting banned ... people should follow the rules.”
Foy said he isn’t opposed to all hunting, and said in the committee’s work around B.C. they encounter “many communities where that’s what keeps entire families going, the ability to be able to go out and hunt and fish for food.”
“But nobody eats grizzly bears,” he said. “It’s a barbaric, stupid sport that one would have thought we would have banned a long, long time ago. It’s not a sport. It’s a blood sport.”
B.C.’s guide outfitting industry directly employs more than 2,000 people and generates about $116 million of economic activity each year, according to the GOABC.
According to B.C. Stats, about 5,000 non-residents come to B.C. to hunt each year, about 86 per cent of whom are from the U.S.
The species licence for a non-resident to hunt for a grizzly in B.C. is $1,030, the most expensive of the 17 categories.

[Sunzuki]

Well now, time to set a painful example of our finest skirting the rules, regulations and law.
Pull his licence.
Done.

[Salty]

I guess my new sig line is kinda timely :rolleyes:

[Lastcar]

Tough week for the hunting community.

Which isn't to imply anyone here is part of the problem.

But clearly there are dicks amongst us as a hunting collective.

Sadly as a group we only get painted by the one brush.

[416]

“Never let a good crisis go to waste”.............should be a way to get some favorable mileage outta this.

[Spy]

I guess my new sig line is kinda timely :rolleyes:
Better put your disclaimer in before you get a letter from them ;-)

[Spy]

“Never let a good crisis go to waste”.............should be a way to get some favorable mileage outta this.


Time for Resident Hunters to stand up and ride the wave ;-)

[The Dawg]

Time for Resident Hunters to stand up and ride the wave ;-)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s4slliAtQU

[Spy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s4slliAtQU
Turn that shit up lol !

[Spy]

Dawg If the media ever needed numbers, of $$'s that have exchanged hands between the LIbs and the Goabc, now is the time to resend them the numbers ;-) What was it for again .....? Oh thats right to promote tourism ;-)

[Salty]

better put your disclaimer in before you get a letter from them ;-)

btdt........

[M.Dean]

" From what I understand there was a carcass on the land and he knew it was there... and I believe his client shot a bear." OK, lets pretend you have a Grizzly draw, you've only got 5 days to find one, on the third day you haven't even seen Grizzly shit, never mind a Grizzly Bear! But..... on that third evening you and your hunt'in buddy stumble across a half eaten moose carcass that a big olde Griz has covered with brush, you guys know this pig of a Bear's going to be back at first light to feed off his kill. Now, that night sitt'in around the fire, having a tall cold glass of Whiskey, do you guys make plans to hunt the far side of the mountain, again, where you haven't seen Jack Sh** all week??? Lets be honest here, when daylight shines over yonder mountain, you and your buddy are hunkered down about 100 yards from this dead moose, Ain't ya??? Personally, I'd never even think of shoot'in a big olde Grizz that was feed'in off a dead moose, I'd sooner eat my Grizz Tag and drive all the way home, empty handed, Again!

[Spy]

" From what I understand there was a carcass on the land and he knew it was there... and I believe his client shot a bear." OK, lets pretend you have a Grizzly draw, you've only got 5 days to find one, on the third day you haven't even seen Grizzly shit, never mind a Grizzly Bear! But..... on that third evening you and your hunt'in buddy stumble across a half eaten moose carcass that a big olde Griz has covered with brush, you guys know this pig of a Bear's going to be back at first light to feed off his kill. Now, that night sitt'in around the fire, having a tall cold glass of Whiskey, do you guys make plans to hunt the far side of the mountain, again, where you haven't seen Jack Sh** all week??? Lets be honest here, when daylight shines over yonder mountain, you and your buddy are hunkered down about 100 yards from this dead moose, Ain't ya??? Personally, I'd never even think of shoot'in a big olde Grizz that was feed'in off a dead moose, I'd sooner eat my Grizz Tag and drive all the way home, empty handed, Again!

Now if you were a guide and had the same scenario what would you do? Remember this was your livelihood And you dont want your wife to divorce you for not making enough coin!

[2chodi]

Whatever the circumstances, the judge saw fit to convict Mr. Thomas. Being found guilty, I am surprised that is was allowed to be out there guiding again this fall.

[Jagermeister]

Whatever the circumstances, the judge saw fit to convict Mr. Thomas. Being found guilty, I am surprised that is was allowed to be out there guiding again this fall.Me too.
And the nonchalance and cavalier attitude of Ellis with regard to their so called coveted Leland Award. That award is downright tainted and tarnished now. I know that I would not be accepting that award in the future if I were a recipient.

[Ohwildwon]

"The details around what happened there aren’t clear, at least to me, not yet. But I know he would not have placed a carcass,"

The details were clear enough to a judge? Guess you know what you want to know?

“the highest award bestowed on a hunting guide, it’s quite a competition.” "He’s a character guy."

Guess it takes character to blur the, thin red line ,to be the (so called) best...

[Whonnock Boy]

Scott Ellis gets hit pretty hard by Randene Neil in the video. The third video at the bottom of the page contains his interview that starts at 2:30. IMO, he does both hunters, and guides a disservice here.


http://globalnews.ca/news/2137371/far-from-cecil-the-lions-world-big-game-hunting-a-thriving-industry-in-canada/

[Gateholio]

" From what I understand there was a carcass on the land and he knew it was there... and I believe his client shot a bear." OK, lets pretend you have a Grizzly draw, you've only got 5 days to find one, on the third day you haven't even seen Grizzly shit, never mind a Grizzly Bear! But..... on that third evening you and your hunt'in buddy stumble across a half eaten moose carcass that a big olde Griz has covered with brush, you guys know this pig of a Bear's going to be back at first light to feed off his kill. Now, that night sitt'in around the fire, having a tall cold glass of Whiskey, do you guys make plans to hunt the far side of the mountain, again, where you haven't seen Jack Sh** all week??? Lets be honest here, when daylight shines over yonder mountain, you and your buddy are hunkered down about 100 yards from this dead moose, Ain't ya??? Personally, I'd never even think of shoot'in a big olde Grizz that was feed'in off a dead moose, I'd sooner eat my Grizz Tag and drive all the way home, empty handed, Again!

That didn't work out to well for the guide.....

[Ohwildwon]

Scott Ellis gets hit pretty hard by Randene Neil in the video. The third video at the bottom of the page contains his interview that starts at 2:30. IMO, he does both hunters, and guides a disservice here.


http://globalnews.ca/news/2137371/far-from-cecil-the-lions-world-big-game-hunting-a-thriving-industry-in-canada/

Yep, brutal... I think someone in that position has to reverse or switch the narrative to conservation, and trophy hunting is a bi-product of that, with that (the grizz that is) animal...

Takes some talent to do that...

[palmer]

It is my understanding it was the remains of a moose that had been shot by clients earlier...

[Drillbit]

"Kneller said, in his experience, most professional guide outfitters in B.C. operate in a legal and ethical manner."


Haha, this was my favourite line.

"Most"!!!.......to me, 6 or 7 out of 10..........

[Brez]

Tough week for the hunting community.

Which isn't to imply anyone here is part of the problem.

But clearly there are dicks amongst us as a hunting collective.

Sadly as a group we only get painted by the one brush.

Totally agree.
Regardless of squabbles within the hunting community, this incident and the killing of Cecil the lion in Africa are two huge nails in the coffin of hunting as we know it. This will affect us all - probably resident hunters more than guide/outfitters. Careful out there. Lets not give the antis any more ammunition.

[Mik]

Yep, brutal... I think someone in that position has to reverse or switch the narrative to conservation, and trophy hunting is a bi-product of that, with that (the grizz that is) animal...

Takes some talent to do that...
i completely agree with your statement, and imo, Scott didn't do well at all that interview

[Cyrus]

is anyone still surprised there are more and more guides that are nothing more than high priced poachers???

[Fisher-Dude]

It appears this guy is no stranger to the inside of a courtroom, IMO. I guess that's what makes a "character guy."


Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH38758176-1 1 14-Feb-2009 MVA - 146(3) Speeding contrary to highway sign THOMAS, MARTIN A Christina Lake BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AG51895369-1 1 03-Jun-2003 MVA - 148(1) excessive speeding THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Blue River BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH75916381-1 1 16-Dec-2013 MVA - 24(3)(b) Driving uninsured vehicle or trailer THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Grand Forks BC

[Brez]

It appears this guy is no stranger to the inside of a courtroom, IMO. I guess that's what makes a "character guy."


Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH38758176-1 1 14-Feb-2009 MVA - 146(3) Speeding contrary to highway sign THOMAS, MARTIN A Christina Lake BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AG51895369-1 1 03-Jun-2003 MVA - 148(1) excessive speeding THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Blue River BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH75916381-1 1 16-Dec-2013 MVA - 24(3)(b) Driving uninsured vehicle or trailer THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Grand Forks BC

Getting caught for speeding makes you a criminal?? Get real!

[Fisher-Dude]

Getting caught for speeding makes you a criminal?? Get real!

Who said that?

I see more of a disregard for the law than a pattern of what would be considered "criminal" behaviour. But that's just my opinion.

[wideopenthrottle]

getting caught for baiting grizzlies isn't a criminal offence either but a few traffic offences is hardly a basis to condemn someone...best part to me is that you were able to dig up that stuff...heheheh

[Gateholio]

He was charged before being given the award. Odd that he didn't mention anything to GOABC. You would think he would, to limit the controversy and embarrassment that was sure to erupt when their top guide is shown to be a poacher.

[Brez]

Who said that?

I see more of a disregard for the law than a pattern of what would be considered "criminal" behaviour. But that's just my opinion.

Sorry.
It still doesn't necessarily make him not a "character guy".
Maybe he's just not that attentive.
Why on earth would you dredge this sh!t up?
Hope that there are no skeletons in your pristine closet.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sorry.
It still doesn't necessarily make him not a "character guy".
Maybe he's just not that attentive.
Why on earth would you dredge this sh!t up?
Hope that there are no skeletons in your pristine closet.

Screw the law, if my unlicenced vehicle kills some guy, leaving his family with no recourse and no insurance coverage, who cares? I'm still a "character guy" and got an award to prove it!

Apparently you don't understand why we have laws that protect other people.

[Steve W]

It appears this guy is no stranger to the inside of a courtroom, IMO. I guess that's what makes a "character guy."


Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH38758176-1 1 14-Feb-2009 MVA - 146(3) Speeding contrary to highway sign THOMAS, MARTIN A Christina Lake BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AG51895369-1 1 03-Jun-2003 MVA - 148(1) excessive speeding THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Blue River BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH75916381-1 1 16-Dec-2013 MVA - 24(3)(b) Driving uninsured vehicle or trailer THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Grand Forks BC

Just curious if it's the same person?

[Fisher-Dude]

Just curious if it's the same person?

Same DoB and from the GF area.

[HarryToolips]

Well now, time to set a painful example of our finest skirting the rules, regulations and law.
Pull his licence.
Done.
Bingo.....

[604redneck]

Getting caught for speeding makes you a criminal?? Get real!

Is speeding legal now?

[wideopenthrottle]

criminal = in the criminal code of Canada (does not include strict liability offences ie speeding and other tickets) nor does it include provincial offences (that are not in the CCC)
like the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor next door

[Gateholio]

Anybody know the details of the case? How he was caught, how he was proven guilty?


And anyone says "radar gun"' is getting banned. ;)

[Steve W]

Same DoB and from the GF area.

Maybe a taxidermist in his spare time?

[Buck]

We need to distance ourselves from the GOABC. The days of pimping wildlife for dollars to non resident trophy hunters is almost over .It is only obvious that the public has no use for it. The outfitting industry needs a complete overhaul starting with a 90/10 split with all non residents on a draw system guided or not.

[Fisher-Dude]

We need to distance ourselves from the GOABC. The days of pimping wildlife for dollars to non resident trophy hunters is almost over .It is only obvious that the public has no use for it. The outfitting industry needs a complete overhaul starting with a 90/10 split with all non residents on a draw system guided or not.

Less than 10% of the general public support trophy hunting, but >70% support hunting for meat.

I think you've got a good point about where we put our finite efforts and resources to protect our heritage.

[Spy]

Less than 10% of the general public support trophy hunting, but >70% support hunting for meat.

I think you've got a good point about where we put our finite efforts and resources to protect our heritage.
X2 Resident Hunters have done a great job on educating the public ! Lets strike while the iron is hot and get rid of the GOABC once and for all.

[BgBlkDg]

Exactly, most BC people I discuss hunting with and I take every opportunity to do so, are adamantly opposed to ANY foreign "trophy" collectors shooting BC animals.

Why, should WE be on LEH so that some guy from East Dickhead, New York, can buy a Stone*s ram for his wall to show of to his buddies?

We should NOT ever be restricted in any way so that foreigners have opportunities here that they phucked up in their own countries.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I AGREE there Big Black Dog ! as USUAL ! :mad::mad: its all ABOUT the MONEY :( RJ

[wideopenthrottle]

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Video+bear+hunt/11255550/story.html

what would you guys say to shooting a grizzly next to a stream with salmon running in it...is that shooting/hunting over "bait"?

[wideopenthrottle]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/regina/Gormley+Cecil+lion+keyboard+lynch+imparts+misplace d+moral/11256684/story.html
perhaps a little more sane view of things

[Gateholio]

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Video+bear+hunt/11255550/story.html

what would you guys say to shooting a grizzly next to a stream with salmon running in it...is that shooting/hunting over "bait"?

It really doesn't matter what we think, it's what the courts think that is important.

I'm don't have anything against bear baiting, if it's done responsibly. I don't think it's unethical, immoral, unsportsmanlike or violates the rules of fair chase. But in BC, it's not legal. And the guide sure knows that.

So, we can play hypothetical all day with what constitutes "baiting" but in this case the guide was found beyond a reasonable doubt to be engaged in an illegal practice.

[Monashee]

How near to a carcass is too near so as to be considered baiting ? If the wind is right in a narrow valley a grizzly could be attracted from miles away .

When i was in my bear hunting phase I had 100% chance of getting a bear every spring at a grassy patch . It was easy .

[Airedale]

It is all about the money....as far as the carefully crafted GOABC public relations message is concerned...
And this is why the Liberals so strongly support the GOABC

I just heard Ellis on TV saying Trophy Hunting brings hundreds of millions to the BC economy every year....
so therefore everybody in BC should support us....
With out of Province....out of Country....guides and outfitters how can this be true....
Clients picked up at the airport and then dropped off again post hunt...
Sure...there's sales taxes from money spent on gear and food and fuel ....and the Province's license and conservation fees....chicken feed...
No formal study of the economic benefits has ever been done....only a back of the envelope scribbling
by some GOABC and Liberal folks...
Show us the tax receipts!
Let's see what you are really worth...

[rockrabbitt]

Does anyone know how to check wildlife infractions in the Yukon as I am sure Mr Thomas was caught and fined there about ten years or so ago for shooting a stone sheep after claiming the two year residency. Which when investigated showed he had been there just over a year if that.

[The Dawg]

Does anyone know how to check wildlife infractions in the Yukon as I am sure Mr Thomas was caught and fined there about ten years or so ago for shooting a stone sheep after claiming the two year residency. Which when investigated showed he had been there just over a year if that.


Way ahead of you ;)

[guest]

and this is their # 1 Guide .......

Great example to lead by ........

Brutal.

[SPEYMAN]

If your going to walk the thin line, you better not have pi$$ed off the boys who enforce the rules. IMO.

[Foxton Gundogs]

It is all about the money....as far as the carefully crafted GOABC public relations message is concerned...
And this is why the Liberals so strongly support the GOABC

I just heard Ellis on TV saying Trophy Hunting brings hundreds of millions to the BC economy every year....
so therefore everybody in BC should support us....
With out of Province....out of Country....guides and outfitters how can this be true....
Clients picked up at the airport and then dropped off again post hunt...
Sure...there's sales taxes from money spent on gear and food and fuel ....and the Province's license and conservation fees....chicken feed...
No formal study of the economic benefits has ever been done....only a back of the envelope scribbling
by some GOABC and Liberal folks...
Show us the tax receipts!
Let's see what you are really worth...
Most of which is bought out of province or even out of country this big dollars brought in by foreign hunters is getting really stale.

[flyboy]

http://www.theprovince.com/touch/story.html?id=11252595

[bang flop]

Will be interesting to see what happens at his appeal in August. If guilty (again) I would assume GOABC would strip him of the award... One would hope

[.264winmag]

Personally kind of torn on this one. Hypothetically speaking if Grizz hunting was still allowed in AB would you be allowed to hunt over bait for them? I realize even if so it would still not make it legal in BC, but...
Correct me if I'm wrong but the bait was not 'placed' there? I shot s grizz eating grass once, I did not place the grass there but it was eating 'bait'?

[bang flop]

It appears this guy is no stranger to the inside of a courtroom, IMO. I guess that's what makes a "character guy."


Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH38758176-1 1 14-Feb-2009 MVA - 146(3) Speeding contrary to highway sign THOMAS, MARTIN A Christina Lake BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AG51895369-1 1 03-Jun-2003 MVA - 148(1) excessive speeding THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Blue River BC

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence
AH75916381-1 1 16-Dec-2013 MVA - 24(3)(b) Driving uninsured vehicle or trailer THOMAS, MARTIN Andrew Grand Forks BC

Not sure why his traffic violations are becoming involved in this. I don't think he was right for hunting the bait pile and I am a resident hunter. But if traffic violations are criminal I'm a crook!
This is about his wildlife violations

[40incher]

Will be interesting to see what happens at his appeal in August. If guilty I would assume GOABC would strip him of the award... One would hope

Doubt That!!

[IslandBC]

The regs say " to hunt bears by placing bait or by using a dead animal or by using part of it as bait"
so he may not have placed the carcass there to hunt over it, but he is "using" the carcass as bait if he knows it is there.

[rgn5hunt]

Maybe the authorities were keeping an eye on this commercial operator. If a person is in a remote location gut pile hunting may be a given, until some reports you!

[Rackmastr]

Personally kind of torn on this one. Hypothetically speaking if Grizz hunting was still allowed in AB would you be allowed to hunt over bait for them? I realize even if so it would still not make it legal in BC, but...

No, you wouldn't. Even when the grizz hunt was open in AB, there was no baiting for them. Also there are several zones that baiting of bears is not allowed in AB, mainly due to them being in zones that have higher number of grizz (mainly out west in the mountains). Just commenting on that part of the question.

[.264winmag]

The regs say " to hunt bears by placing bait or by using a dead animal or by using part of it as bait"
so he may not have placed the carcass there to hunt over it, but he is "using" the carcass as bait if he knows it is there.

I can read the regs and understand them thanks. So I ask you then, there's a bear a few hundred yards away digging and foraging away under a blowdown stump or why. You just figure he's digging for grubs, roots, etc. Poke him in the chest and upon further investigation he had a half buried ungulate by the stump marinated in the sun. You didn't know it was there so you're not a poacher?
For the coastal salmon eating grizz it's not uncommon to sit in tree stands on the river in the fall, river full of salmon. Might as well through all them guys a fine as well.

[.264winmag]

Maybe the authorities were keeping an eye on this commercial operator. If a person is in a remote location gut pile hunting may be a given, until some reports you!

I ****ing guarantee this happens, I'd put money on it happening to the same type of people that are the first to chastise the accused.

[Trapper]

There are two sides to every story, I know Marty. matter of fact I use to guide with him years ago and I don't believe he would place bait hunting bears its just not in him to do it. and if there was a carcass around and if he didn't know about it the CO's would try and charge him anyways. kind of a grey area

[.264winmag]

There are two sides to every story, I know Marty. matter of fact I use to guide with him years ago and I don't believe he would place bait hunting bears its just not in him to do it. and if there was a carcass around and if he didn't know about it the CO's would try and charge him anyways. kind of a grey area

This is what in getting at guys! I know an area that gets targeted every fall that's littered in buffalo carcasses. The bear could be nowhere near a carcass at time it's shot, but you know damn well it's headed to a carcass not too far away!

[bearvalley]

I can read the regs and understand them thanks. So I ask you then, there's a bear a few hundred yards away digging and foraging away under a blowdown stump or why. You just figure he's digging for grubs, roots, etc. Poke him in the chest and upon further investigation he had a half buried ungulate by the stump marinated in the sun. You didn't know it was there so you're not a poacher?
For the coastal salmon eating grizz it's not uncommon to sit in tree stands on the river in the fall, river full of salmon. Might as well through all them guys a fine as well.

You can bet there have been a lot of bears "poached" in BC in situations such as the ones you described above. Both grizzlies and black bears.
Another thought is that a few areas of this province are notorious for "gunshot & gutpile" habituated bears. Northeastern BC is known to be right behind the Kootenays for this issue.
What would be interesting would be if one of the righteous critics of this case happens to one day be faced with an aggressive bear while dealing with a legally harvested big game animal on the ground. Will it be self defense or will it be poaching if the bear has to be shot. The guy had better hope he does not have bear tag and is wearing some scratches in order to plead his case.
There is a lot of grey in this matter.

[bridger]

The whole issue of "using a carcass" is a gray area and one that the CO's and decision makers have wrestled with over the years.. Place a bait on purpose and you are guilty, knowingly hunting over a carcass that you or some other hunter left is a no no as well. The only gray area is shooting a bear on or near a carcass of which you have absolutely no idea it was there and even then you must convince the CO's of your innocence.. CO's seldom lay a charge without good reason.

[IslandBC]

I can read the regs and understand them thanks. So I ask you then, there's a bear a few hundred yards away digging and foraging away under a blowdown stump or why. You just figure he's digging for grubs, roots, etc. Poke him in the chest and upon further investigation he had a half buried ungulate by the stump marinated in the sun. You didn't know it was there so you're not a poacher?
For the coastal salmon eating grizz it's not uncommon to sit in tree stands on the river in the fall, river full of salmon. Might as well through all them guys a fine as well.
In your first scenario no you are definitely not a poacher because you are not USING (key word in the regs) the carcass if you did not know it was there. If you did know it was there then yes you are using it as bait. Your second scenario is not baiting either. A carcass is a dead animal... A running salmon is neither a restrained bait or a carcass . So it would be legal to hunt over a river or creek. If there's dead salmon along the river. And you know it. That's considered baiting. Says right in the regs .... Technically speaking anyway

[.264winmag]

Bahahaha that doesn't sound like a grey area at all! How the **** are they gonna prove beyond a shadow of a doubt either way? How the **** do you have salmon running the river and not have any dead on the bank, mind boggling.

[Busterpayton54]

Serious question .. What constitutes bait?

In my opinion "bait" is intentionally place there. In my opinion hunting over a naturally deceased carcass is no different than huntig over a berry patch or a nice green Avalanche chute. You come across a natural food source for the animal by chance and use that to your advantage.

I would hardly even call a guy pile bait.

If im wrong, when does a water hole become "bait"?

[IslandBC]

Lol then there yah go. Don't hunt rivers with running salmon . Or don't hunt an animal if you see a "grey area" seems pretty distinct to me.. Page 22 after your hunt. carcasses or part of a carcass of an animal or fish are included in the wild life act definition of an attractant.
just saying it is outlined a few times about what's considered baiting and what is not. I agree you can't always know if there is a carcass or attractent near. But shooting and animal knowing there's bait around and not knowing its around are two different hunts .

[The Hermit]

This guy went to court and argued in his own defense or had a lawyer do so on his behalf. He didn't just plead guilty right? The Crown presented the facts of the case and the Court found him GUILTY as charged. Even if he is appealing he is still GUILTY unless he can bring evidence to the contrary and have the judgement of the lower court overturned.

It has been my experience that our liberal courts bend over backwards to hear, consider, and weigh any evidence and testimony an accused person offers, and will often find in favor of the accused unless their is a preponderance of evidence and testimony to the contrary. We also need to keep in mind that we don't know much about the facts presented by the Crown - perhaps the hunter let it slip that there was a carcass to a CO or some other loose lips sunk the ship?

Regardless, until his judgement is overturned on appeal, in my opinion, he is a poacher and shouldn't be allowed to guide ever again! The fact that the GOABC hasn't censured him or even stripped him of the award speaks volumes!

[Gateholio]

Serious question .. What constitutes bait?

In my opinion "bait" is intentionally place there. In my opinion hunting over a naturally deceased carcass is no different than huntig over a berry patch or a nice green Avalanche chute. You come across a natural food source for the animal by chance and use that to your advantage.

I would hardly even call a guy pile bait.

If im wrong, when does a water hole become "bait"?

That doesn't appear to be the definition the courts use. From what I can gather, when you are know there is a carcass there and you are intentionally hunting near it to kill a bear, it's baiting, regardless of how the carcass got there.

[Gateholio]

What would be interesting would be if one of the righteous critics of this case happens to one day be faced with an aggressive bear while dealing with a legally harvested big game animal on the ground. Will it be self defense or will it be poaching if the bear has to be shot. The guy had better hope he does not have bear tag and is wearing some scratches in order to plead his case.
There is a lot of grey in this matter.

If he is cutting up a elk and a bear comes in and he is forced to shoot it, it can hardly be construed as "baiting"

The hunter was not hunting bear at the time. He wasn't using the dead animal as an attractant in hopes of luring the bear in.

[Gateholio]

I can read the regs and understand them thanks. So I ask you then, there's a bear a few hundred yards away digging and foraging away under a blowdown stump or why. You just figure he's digging for grubs, roots, etc. Poke him in the chest and upon further investigation he had a half buried ungulate by the stump marinated in the sun. You didn't know it was there so you're not a poacher?
For the coastal salmon eating grizz it's not uncommon to sit in tree stands on the river in the fall, river full of salmon. Might as well through all them guys a fine as well.

In this case, you aren't "using" the dead animal as bait. You didn't know it was there.

[Gateholio]

This guy went to court and argued in his own defense or had a lawyer do so on his behalf. He didn't just plead guilty right? The Crown presented the facts of the case and the Court found him GUILTY as charged. Even if he is appealing he is still GUILTY unless he can bring evidence to the contrary and have the judgement of the lower court overturned.

It has been my experience that our liberal courts bend over backwards to hear, consider, and weigh any evidence and testimony an accused person offers, and will often find in favor of the accused unless their is a preponderance of evidence and testimony to the contrary. We also need to keep in mind that we don't know much about the facts presented by the Crown - perhaps the hunter let it slip that there was a carcass to a CO or some other loose lips sunk the ship?

Regardless, until his judgement is overturned on appeal, in my opinion, he is a poacher and shouldn't be allowed to guide ever again! The fact that the GOABC hasn't censured him or even stripped him of the award speaks volumes!

I think Hermit has it right. The guide either admitted guilt and/or was given due process and was found guilty. No grey area here.

[bearvalley]

Gatehouse, you should be a Conservation Officer or a judge.
I agree that shooting a bear over a known attractant is illegal and should be dealt with such as in the case posted in this thread.

[IslandBC]

Good thing they took his clients grizz mount away. You imagine trying to explain that trophy story to people ha "we hunted hard for 5 days... Then said **** it and shot it over a gut pile"

[IslandBC]

Gatehouse I 100% agree with you. The regs are the law. No way around it.

[40incher]

I heard the anti's are calling the poached grizz "Cecil 2".

Gotta love it!

Way to go you trophy-huntin' "organized" guides. Keep it up boys ...

[bearvalley]

I heard the anti's are calling the poached grizz "Cecil 2".

Gotta love it!

Way to go you trophy-huntin' "organized" guides. Keep it up boys ...

The law is the law and if it was broken as it seems to have been the charge is warranted.
Its to bad the bear issue came forth in the middle of all the "Cecil" hype. I think all aspects of hunting have been brought under the scrutiny of the non hunting public, thanks to all the media attention.
I find it hard to believe someone that thinks of themselves as a hunter can sit back and gloat over crap like this.

[40incher]

Just statin' the facts bud!! Would hardly call it gloating.

The "professional" hunters should apologize for their actions, get Crispy and Thompson to rescind, and get real ... and life will be good again. Maybe.

I know I am a hunter BTW ... unlike the poachers and their apologists sittin' in the weeds.

Good to know that you consider a conviction grounds for removal from the ranks of the law abiding?!

Let's just call the bear Cyrus and be done with it!

[IslandBC]

Cequal is more fitting

[40incher]

Cequal is more fitting

I'm good with that ... how about you BV??

[bearvalley]

[QUOTE=40incher;
I know I am a hunter BTW ... [/QUOTE]
With a forum name like 40incher you must be a "Trophy Hunter". Lol

[.264winmag]

My partner has fall grizz draw for our sheep area this year. We see them every year scrounging through the rocks after the marmots or whatever them rodents are that whistle all the time. I'm not sure if we should be hunting his tag that way now, we know those rodents are there...

Agreed that the fact remains that he was proven guilty, just seems a little fishy, or moosie...

[Busterpayton54]

Yup, avoid hunting them nearany food source.

Im glad a ran across this thread.. In the past I have noticed Ravens, inspecting the area thinking/finding a carcass and having no idea I would be breaking a law if I was to harvest a bear. I just assumed this was part of hunting.

[bassplayer]

With a forum name like 40incher you must be a "Trophy Hunter". Lol

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr171/bassplayer1972/540169_3912188040906_1913709804_n_zpseoshj0cp.jpg

[40incher]

Got that wrong ... I just kill 'em as legal by definition and do so for the meat and the hunt. Some just happen to be over 40 unfortunately ... taste pretty good though.

Goin' up September 1 to get some more sheep meat ... hope it's a little one.

Continuing to use the terminology "trophy" is something you boys should lose real quick ...

Just sayin' ...

[Mikey Rafiki]

A griz scrounging for live animals has nothing to do with baiting. Ravens are everywhere, and unless you know they are on a confirmed carcass and you are hunting there for that reason it's not baiting.

It was mentioned in another thread that the guide knew the carcass was there becuase it was a known kill site from a previous guided hunt. Whether or not that was the case, it represents the fact that you have to be hunting in the near vicinity of a dead animal WHILE knowing that dead animal will or could attract a bear. Use your brains people.

[rgn5hunt]

The Premier will be questioning Minister Thomson on this incident. Thomson will have to get his tool box out and fix the Wildlife Act.

[Gateholio]

My partner has fall grizz draw for our sheep area this year. We see them every year scrounging through the rocks after the marmots or whatever them rodents are that whistle all the time. I'm not sure if we should be hunting his tag that way now, we know those rodents are there...

Agreed that the fact remains that he was proven guilty, just seems a little fishy, or moosie...

If you feel that hunting grizz where there are marmots is illegal, then don't do it. I personally don't think it's wrong, but I'm not a CO or Judge- and never will be. ;)

[Gateholio]

Lots of red herrings thrown up in this thread about berry patches and salmon streams and marmots

We all know the truth here, even if some don't want to admit it.

Bottom line is that if you sit on a carcass waiting for a bear, it's considered baiting. So don't do that if you want to keep the COs off your back. Pretty simple, really.

[Morleystw]

Wtf is a grizzie??

[ruger#1]

Wtf is a grizzie??It is that Brown spot in your shorts.

[.264winmag]

A griz scrounging for live animals has nothing to do with baiting. Ravens are everywhere, and unless you know they are on a confirmed carcass and you are hunting there for that reason it's not baiting.

It was mentioned in another thread that the guide knew the carcass was there becuase it was a known kill site from a previous guided hunt. Whether or not that was the case, it represents the fact that you have to be hunting in the near vicinity of a dead animal WHILE knowing that dead animal will or could attract a bear. Use your brains people.

Just being a smartass, horses fell through for this year anyway so packing out a hide by backpack not high on priority list. But if we knew there was a dead marmot in the rocks we would have to pass legally.

[Ambush]

What if you have a grizzly tag, on a back pack hunt, and you return to camp one evening to find a bear there tearing into your tent? You did place the tent there and you did stock it with food. :confused:

For me, I'd have to get within bow range, but if I could, my only decision would be where to move the tent to away from the carcass because of flies. 8)

[Fisher-Dude]

The Premier will be questioning Minister Thomson on this incident. Thomson will have to get his tool box out and fix the Wildlife Act.

I can see it now - non-residents can shoot grizzly bears over bait to ensure the viability of the guiding industry. Here's $430,000 to GOABC to advertise it. We want to avoid divorces and crying on the phone.

Order in Council, done.

Think that's outrageous? Is it more outrageous than allowing them to hammer over their quotas with legal impunity? Is it more outrageous than the $430,000 already gifted to GOABC by Christy?

We've just seen the tip of the iceberg on this shit. Get ready to be outraged.

[.264winmag]

What if you have a grizzly tag, on a back pack hunt, and you return to camp one evening to find a bear there tearing into your tent? You did place the tent there and you did stock it with food. :confused:

For me, I'd have to get within bow range, but if I could, my only decision would be where to move the tent to away from the carcass because of flies. 8)

What tent:)

[bearvalley]

I can see it now - non-residents can shoot grizzly bears over bait to ensure the viability of the guiding industry. Here's $430,000 to GOABC to advertise it. We want to avoid divorces and crying on the phone.

Order in Council, done.

Think that's outrageous? Is it more outrageous than allowing them to hammer over their quotas with legal impunity? Is it more outrageous than the $430,000 already gifted to GOABC by Christy?

We've just seen the tip of the iceberg on this shit. Get ready to be outraged.

Youre being overly dramatic FD.
When an outfitter "hammers" over their quota they are going to have the Regional Manager hand out a Section 61. In extreme cases it will mean the loss of the outfitters tenure area. Is that legal impunity?
On the other hand what happens if you road hunt an extra deer you don't have a tag for?

[Spy]

What happens if you road hunt an extra deer you don't have a tag for?[/QUOTE]
If you are a Resident Hunter you will probably loose your truck rifles and gear & be charged with poaching!
If you are a guide Nothing as the Liberals changed the law for you! How is that fair???? Oh right its not but you guides greased the Liberals palms to push that through so you could be legal poachers!

[bearvalley]

Ahh...Spy, don't get me started. What happens when you stuff a misplaced arrow into an animal and it disappears into the brush? Do you go whack another one if you can't find the first?
Some might look at that as failure to recover wildlife. Of coarse if you don't tell...no one knows.
Hey, don't worry, none of us live in a glass house.
By the way how's your buddy Weaver doing? Have you got him greased to disregard bows & arrows when he targets firearms? But then he's got to win the election before we need to worry. Look out 2017, I highly doubt that we'll see Weaver or the ex outfitter driving the bus.
If he's really an ex outfitter, something tells me he's still in the business.
Like I posted before Spy, an outfitter has a lot more at stake by going over quota than a resident hunter does. But then I doubt that either you or FD have ever read the conditions laid out on a Guide Outfitters License as to what happens when quota is over achieved.
Carry on with your misinformed BS.

[Foxtail]

I would like to know the consequences if a guide goes over his quota, if you don't mind telling bearvalley.

[bearvalley]

I would like to know the consequences if a guide goes over his quota, if you don't mind telling bearvalley.
It's spelled out in black & white on his Guide Outfitter License that at the Regional Managers discretion he can be facing a Section 61 under the BC Wildlife Act or other measures will be taken (such as reduced quota in following years).
No outfitter is going to grossly exceed his allotted quota and risk loosing his entire business.

[bassplayer]

I thought there was a big stink amongst this new allocation policy because there was something mentioned that also gave the guides and outfitters a little more leeway if they took over their quota without consequence or am i wrong? Trying to dig it up.

[The Dawg]

It's spelled out in black & white on his Guide Outfitter License that at the Regional Managers discretion he can be facing a Section 61 under the BC Wildlife Act or other measures will be taken (such as reduced quota in following years).
No outfitter is going to grossly exceed his allotted quota and risk loosing his entire business.


and there's the key word

"can"

not "will"

no where in the OIC does it say the outfitter will be penalized. It just says "may"

[bearvalley]

and there's the key word

"can"

not "will"

no where in the OIC does it say the outfitter will be penalized. It just says "may"

Sooo... why don't you put your cash in a pile, buy an outfit and test the limits?
Like I said before "No outfitter is going to grossly exceed his allotted quota and risk loosing his entire business".

[bridger]

Lets be realistic here. Outfitters can and have lost their areas for a number of reasons. Going over quota has never been the root cause of an outfitter losing his area. In fact it is a very rare occasion when one does lose an area. With admin guidelines an outfitter can exceed his quota by 30% in any one year as long as he doesn't exceed the five year total so there is little danger of an outfitter losing his area by going over quota There is really no need to go over quota with the generous harvest share they have. In fact the majority of outfitters can't book enough grizzly hunters to fill their quotas so the question has begs to be asked why do they need 40% of the AAH.

[btridge]

Sooo... why don't you put your cash in a pile, buy an outfit and test the limits?
Like I said before "No outfitter is going to grossly exceed his allotted quota and risk loosing his entire business".

Nice try at a derail. This thread is about A STAR GOABC GUIDE CONVICTED OF BAITING GRIZZIES! No gray areas, Not an arm chair judgement on the internet, but FOUND GUILTY BY A BC JUDGE IN A BC COURT.

[Spy]

Ahh...Spy, don't get me started. What happens when you stuff a misplaced arrow into an animal and it disappears into the brush? Do you go whack another one if you can't find the first?
Some might look at that as failure to recover wildlife. Of coarse if you don't tell...no one knows.
Hey, don't worry, none of us live in a glass house.
By the way how's your buddy Weaver doing? Have you got him greased to disregard bows & arrows when he targets firearms? But then he's got to win the election before we need to worry. Look out 2017, I highly doubt that we'll see Weaver or the ex outfitter driving the bus.
If he's really an ex outfitter, something tells me he's still in the business.
Like I posted before Spy, an outfitter has a lot more at stake by going over quota than a resident hunter does. But then I doubt that either you or FD have ever read the conditions laid out on a Guide Outfitters License as to what happens when quota is over achieved.
Carry on with your misinformed BS.

Ha ha must have touched a nerve for you to make this about me lol ! Atleast I have ethics unlike the guide in question lol ! Im the first one to count winged birds in my bag ! As for sticking a animal with an arrow and loosing said animal, yup I count it as a cancelled tag & stop hunting, even though by law I can carry on ;-) Unlike outfitters who are in it for the $$$$ and will do just about anything to get their clients a animal or bear in this case !

[rgn5hunt]

With this bear baiting incident one has to look at the client . For the outfitter, he gets a fine and casts a dark shadow on his association. The client goes home and has to face his wife who was waiting patiently for her new 20000 dollar bear rug! He would be in the dog house.

[bearvalley]

Ha ha must have touched a nerve for you to make this about me lol ! Atleast I have ethics unlike the guide in question lol ! Im the first one to count winged birds in my bag ! As for sticking a animal with an arrow and loosing said animal, yup I count it as a cancelled tag & stop hunting, even though by law I can carry on ;-) Unlike outfitters who are in it for the $$$$ and will do just about anything to get their clients a animal or bear in this case !
Spy the way you peddle BS do you expect this to be believed. Lol

[Spy]

Spy the way you peddle BS do you expect this to be believed. Lol
Show me the "BS" I peddle is not factual and true! I dont really give a shit what you think anyway you are a guide so don't judge others on something you would do !

[bearvalley]

Show me the "BS" I peddle is not factual and true! I dont really give a shit what you think anyway you are a guide so don't judge others on something you would do !

Not my style Spy. As far as I'm concerned you're an opinionated P**** with damn little knowledge on most topics you pass judgement on. So what if I'm a guide. That doesn't mean I would shoot a bear off a gutpile. If you could read my posts past getting hung up on the guide issue, you would see where I posted that the charge was warranted if the situation was as stated. That being the case, the Leland Award should be taken back and given to the next guide in line. JMO.
As for you sticking an animal with an arrow and loosing the animal in the brush, good on you for punching your tag. Sounds to me like meat wastage. Be interesting if you ever have to show your cancelled tag and then get asked where your game is. Some outfitters and guides are a hell of a lot more ethical than you are. They make sure the guide has a rifle and do all they can to make sure the animal is humanely dispatched and recovered.

[Spy]

Who said im going to cancel my tag ??? Let us know why we should believe anything you have to say? Resident Hunters know first hand the lies you guys spin to improve your bottom line!

[bearvalley]

Who said im going to cancel my tag ??? Let us know why we should believe anything you have to say? Resident Hunters know first hand the lies you guys spin to improve your bottom line!

I was just giving you credit for cutting your tag when you said you counted it as cancelled. I guess it's better off in your pocket in case you get the "opportunity" to poke an arrow into another one....or 2 or 3...
That's what it's all about isn't it......Opportunity?
What do you do to improve your bottom line? Do you have a plunger handy...I think your pipes are plugging up.

[Spy]

I was just giving you credit for cutting your tag when you said you counted it as cancelled. I guess it's better off in your pocket in case you get the "opportunity" to poke an arrow into another one....or 2 or 3...
That's what it's all about isn't it......Opportunity?
What do you do to improve your bottom line? Do you have a plunger handy...I think your pipes are plugging up.

I said I would stop hunting not cut my tag and this is the reason! " Be interesting if you ever have to show your cancelled tag and then get asked where your game is." LOL I see you had to go have a look at my profile to see if you could find something to use against me lol, nice try and once again real nice hijack!

[.264winmag]

Bottom line buddy was charged in a court of law. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if the ruling was overturned but not for me to decide. IMO the 'law' on this matter is completely flawed, like many others in this country I suppose...

[bearvalley]

Spy, are you feeling guilty? You got something to hide? I've been upfront the whole time since this resident/outfitter BS started. You might be surprised at who's agreed with some of my statements through out this shitstorm. So carry on stuffing arrows into your opportunity animals. There's a lot bigger picture than you're seeing if any of us are going to retain the privilege of hunting in the future.

[Gateholio]

Bearvalley and Spy, if you want to discuss bow hunting, start another thread.

If you want to go on a HBC vacation, then just keep doing what you are doing on this thread, and I will accommodate you.

This is the only warning.

[The Hermit]

It is that Brown spot in your shorts.

Ahahahahaha!

[bearvalley]

No problem Gatehouse.

[Jagermeister]

The law is the law and if it was broken as it seems to have been the charge is warranted.
Its to bad the bear issue came forth in the middle of all the "Cecil" hype. I think all aspects of hunting have been brought under the scrutiny of the non hunting public, thanks to all the media attention.
I find it hard to believe someone that thinks of themselves as a hunter can sit back and gloat over crap like this.
Cut the crap Mikey. Look at this statement,
The law is the law and if it was broken as it seems to have been the charge is warranted.It isn't a case of "if it was broken" and it isn't a case of "as it seems to have been and it the charge is warranted". The law was broken and the conviction is warranted. This last statement is factual and not innuendo such as what you posted.
Take this into consideration. If there were not some extenuating circumstances, the Conservation Officers would not have laid the charge nor would Crown Counsel have proceeded in the case. The case is cut and dried, guilty as charged.
You're painting yourself with the same brush by defending it and trying to cast doubt not to mention the attack on other members not in agreement with your tainted view.
If anything, you should be petitioning Ellis to revoke the award.

[The Hermit]

^^^ what he said ^^^ Why is the GOABC letting this stand? What teeth do they have in their code of ethics? Why is the guy still allowed to guide? Surely a resident hunter would have his/her hunting privileges curtailed for a period of time no? The fact that the GOABC hasn't even rescinded the award speaks VOLUMES!!!

[bearvalley]

Dennis, have you taken up law in your retirement. You twist shit around like a lawyer.
I stated the charge was warranted if the case was as stated. Guilty and done.
As for petitioning Ellis to revoke the award, why should I, he doesn't work for me.
My belief is the Leland Award should be returned and passed on to the next guide in line.
Can I make myself any clearer than that.

[The Hermit]

Dennis, have you taken up law in your retirement. You twist shit around like a lawyer.
I stated the charge was warranted if the case was as stated. Guilty and done.
As for petitioning Ellis to revoke the award, why should I, he doesn't work for me.
My belief is the Leland Award should be returned and passed on to the next guide in line.
Can I make myself any clearer than that.

Glad to hear it BV! Cheers,

BT

[Jagermeister]

Dennis, have you taken up law in your retirement. You twist shit around like a lawyer.
I stated the charge was warranted if the case was as stated. Guilty and done.
As for petitioning Ellis to revoke the award, why should I, he doesn't work for me.
My belief is the Leland Award should be returned and passed on to the next guide in line.
Can I make myself any clearer than that.Because you're a guide and even though you are not a member of GOABC, you should make a stand to eradicate those that besmirch your profession.
And as far a twisting shit around. Far from it, I was just straightening your twist. Now make the call to have the convicted disqualified from guiding.
Maybe B&C would like a call about the ethics of "fair chase" as practiced by the guides in BC. Wait, I know your agrument, "Not all guides conduct themselves like that". True, but who knows which ones since those that are convicted are allowed to continue to guide? Like I said, you're all painted with the same brush until you take a stand to clean up the act.
It's not how clear you see it, it's how clear the others see it.

[Whonnock Boy]

Not trying to jump on ya BV, but Jager has a very valid point. This shouldn't even be questioned. His "Guide of the Year" title should be stripped without hesitation, and his peers should be calling for it regardless of their affiliation with the GOABC.

[bearvalley]

Because you're a guide and even though you are not a member of GOABC, you should make a stand to eradicate those that besmirch your profession.
And as far a twisting shit around. Far from it, I was just straightening your twist. Now make the call to have the convicted disqualified from guiding.
Maybe B&C would like a call about the ethics of "fair chase" as practiced by the guides in BC. Wait, I know your agrument, "Not all guides conduct themselves like that". True, but who knows which ones since those that are convicted are allowed to continue to guide? Like I said, you're all painted with the same brush until you take a stand to clean up the act.
It's not how clear you see it, it's how clear the others see it.
The decision on if he continues to hold an assistant guides license is up to the CO Service and Crown Council along with the judge that presided over the case. It's not my decision or yours.
My beleif is that the award should have never been accepted with him having knowledge of the charges pending. If GOABC was unaware of the issue at the time of presentation, then they should not be held accountable up until the time that they had knowledge of the charges. Now they should pull back the award and pass it down to another recipient.
Dont get to righteous on all guides being painted with the same brush when it comes to wildlife act convictions. There are pages and pages of them on line, a small percentage are guides and outfitters and once in a while an interesting name pops up. I haven't run across mine or yours.

[Spy]

Not trying to jump on ya BV, but Jager has a very valid point. This shouldn't even be questioned. His "Guide of the Year" title should be stripped without hesitation, and his peers should be calling for it regardless of their affiliation with the GOABC.
But they wont because they think it's a bullshit charge and a borderline offense and feel for their buddy that got caught! Same as when they thought they were justified in getting a bigger piece of the pie at Resident Hunters expense !

[40incher]

Time for the GOABC to show us all they are not the culls that they are being painted as!

Let's get just one dirty guide off the landscape ... and give some shred of credibility to the guide industry in B.C..

As far as him being banned as an assistant guide, that's a moot point. Assistant guides don't need to be licensed thanks to Crispy and her pack of prostitutes. Resident hunters have been sold out, and the guides will end to regret that!

Gotta' love dysfunction!!

[BChunter]

Sorry resident hunters, I don't feel this guide is a criminal but did violate the game laws and worse, his ethics as a guide in our province. My opinion, a legal carcass from an ungulate harvest should not be bait as it was not placed for that purpose.
Put yourself in a guides position with a client and tell yourself you would not go by and check! Really, this should be considered and changed as long as it's a legal carcass and a bear is therefore legal. Besides, the bear will come looking for the missing meat after the guts almost certainly. Don't forget to clean the blood off your clothes! They feed at night too!

[Caribou_lou]

Sorry resident hunters, I don't feel this guide is a criminal but did violate the game laws and worse, his ethics as a guide in our province. My opinion, a legal carcass from an ungulate harvest should not be bait as it was not placed for that purpose.
Put yourself in a guides position with a client and tell yourself you would not go by and check! Really, this should be considered and changed as long as it's a legal carcass and a bear is therefore legal. Besides, the bear will come looking for the missing meat after the guts almost certainly. Don't forget to clean the blood off your clothes! They feed at night too!

I wouldn't go by and check. Period. Why see something you can't legally harvest.

He was found guilty, end of story. He should be embarrassed to show his face at any GOABC event.

[Gateholio]

It speaks volumes about GOABC that they didn't immediately and publicly announce he would lose the award. Instead, they tried to downplay the poaching.


Of the charge, Ellis said: “(It’s) a small distinction, hunting with bait or hunting near bait, in regards to bear hunting.

Small distinction? It's pretty clear in the regs! :)

[Gateholio]

Sorry resident hunters, I don't feel this guide is a criminal but did violate the game laws and worse, his ethics as a guide in our province. My opinion, a legal carcass from an ungulate harvest should not be bait as it was not placed for that purpose.
Put yourself in a guides position with a client and tell yourself you would not go by and check! Really, this should be considered and changed as long as it's a legal carcass and a bear is therefore legal. Besides, the bear will come looking for the missing meat after the guts almost certainly. Don't forget to clean the blood off your clothes! They feed at night too!



The laws are very clear about using a carcass for bait. The fact that there is a foreigner hunting the grizzly doesn't bestow special privileges to the guide. I personally think using carcasses should be legal, but I doubt BC will ever change the law.

[rgn5hunt]

The ungulate was placed there probably by a client of the outfitter with a bullet and generated several thousand dollars. The carcass had a great deal of value left in it, as bait!

[Avalanche123]

Assistant guides don't need to be licensed thanks to Crispy and her pack of prostitutes.


Well actually they do now....

http://certification.goabc.org

[40incher]

Licensing of assistant guides was abandoned by the Liberals to appease them.

Certification by the guides themselves does not equate to or replace that.

[bearvalley]

Licensing of assistant guides was abandoned by the Liberals to appease them.

Certification by the guides themselves does not equate to or replace that.
I really fail to see the difference. In both the old form of licensing and the new it is simply a piece of paper with a name and license ID number. The officials that check the new ones recognize them as a legal license, so why shouldn't you?

[Fisher-Dude]

It's not the first time GOABC guides have used carcasses for bait. From what I have read, I think it's not that unusual. But hey, that's just my opinion.


http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/british-columbia/provincial-court-of-british-columbia/2003/01/24/r-v-nyuli-2003-bcpc-20.shtml

The evidence of Green, through his admission to the undercover Officer Crack, is that the grizzly was shot on a carcass. It is not necessary for these counts to establish that it was the Everley moose carcass that the grizzly was taken on. There were other hunters in the area unrelated to Fox Lake who could have left a gut pile at some other location shortly before the grizzly was taken. That unchallenged evidence that the grizzly was taken on a carcass, together with the presence of the secreted hide of the grizzly bear and the admission by Nyuli of the purpose of the hide being secreted under a bed, is sufficient to establish the offence in count 17 and 19. It then falls to Nyuli to establish that the offence occurred without his knowledge. Nyuli has not established that fact either on cross-examination or by introducing evidence. He is therefore liable by way of section 104(1) for the offence committed by his assistant guide, Young.


As an aside, while reading though some of this case's evidence, I found the following paragraph. It's sickening to me as a resident hunter:

The American hunters who gave evidence expressed displeasure over the presence of resident hunters hunting in the area. They have paid great sums of money to Tom Fox and resent the right of local people to hunt in the area. Tom Fox as well expressed a great deal of anger at the undercover officer and the prosecutor for their roles in the case.

[Caribou_lou]

It's not the first time GOABC guides have used carcasses for bait. From what I have read, I think it's not that unusual. But hey, that's just my opinion.
http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/british-columbia/provincial-court-of-british-columbia/2003/01/24/r-v-nyuli-2003-bcpc-20.shtml
The American hunters who gave evidence expressed displeasure over the presence of resident hunters hunting in the area. They have paid great sums of money to Tom Fox and resent the right of local people to hunt in the area. Tom Fox as well expressed a great deal of anger at the undercover officer and the prosecutor for their roles in the case.

I don't understand why they don't go undercover more often! I understand the Yanks and Guides frustration. It must not be nearly as enjoyable to hunt over bait when their is a chance someone is watching you.

[Fisher-Dude]

So, here's something interesting. Seems a certain Mr Thomas has a few other violations to his name.



2014 3 Ticket - MOE or MFLNRO statutes Thomas, Marty West Kootenay Wildlife Act HuntR 16(3.3) $230 Fail to comply with compulsory inspection requirements - black bear in region 6
2014 3 Ticket - MOE or MFLNRO statutes Thomas, Marty West Kootenay Wildlife Act HuntR 10 $345 Exceed bag or possession limit

2013 2 Ticket - MOE or MFLNRO statutes Thomas, Martin West Kootenay Wildlife Act WACAR 2.01(1)(A-D) $115 Taxidermist, tanner, licensed fur trader, meatcutter or an operator of a cold storage plant fails to immediately record wildlife
2013 2 Ticket - MOE or MFLNRO statutes Thomas, Martin West Kootenay Wildlife Act 33(2) $230 Unlawful possession of dead wildlife or parts

[BgBlkDg]

Why would this attitude on the part of some foreigners surprise anyone. I have posted here a few months ago about the arrogance of many Yankees concerning access to OUR wildlife, fish and wilderness recreation opportunities.

I also recall an American deliberately logging on here and viciously slagging me and my family because I DARE to think that BCers and Canadians like me have the right to decide who we do and do not want hunting, etc. in OUR repeat OUR land.

I have encountered this scores of times when on Kootenay Lake, as a kid watching the Yankees catch and keep scores of OUR Kokanee, etc. Many, NOT ALL, of them have the *continentalist* attitude to Canada and OUR resources and the vile, foul and treacherous GOABC and others like them are supporting this travesty.

Then, some wonder why so many ordinary BC people are totally opposed to any foreign hunting here......and, while I can be convinced that such an activity, IF, properly operated could benefit us and hunters from the USA and UK and Germany, etc., I will never support the current situation and most people I discuss this with feel much as I do.

[The Hermit]

So again I ask, why does the GOABC not kick his ass out of the association for repeated breaching of their code of ethics? Again I ask why the Ministry allows him to continue to operate as a guide or even hunt?

[Fisher-Dude]

So again I ask, why does the GOABC not kick his ass out of the association for repeated breaching of their code of ethics? Again I ask why the Ministry allows him to continue to operate as a guide or even hunt?

Maybe exceeding the bag limit doesn't seem so egregious when Thomson lets guides hammer over their quotas. ;)

[rgn5hunt]

Wow, a little bit of history there, so much for the out of character statement!

[tuner]

The fines highlighted by FD's post above shows how inadequate the punishment is for guides that break the law. A RH would have his property confiscated and hunting privileges revoked for several years for the same infractions on top of the fines. It's unacceptable that the law is not applied with the same severity across the board.

[Gateholio]

So again I ask, why does the GOABC not kick his ass out of the association for repeated breaching of their code of ethics? Again I ask why the Ministry allows him to continue to operate as a guide or even hunt?

You want something done about it, two words - social media.

Look what happened to the dentist.

Petitioning the Liberals seems pointless. Obviously he is one of GOABCs favorites if they gave him an award after his multiple tickets and now this conviction. Only way to get anything done these days seems via Twitter!

[rgn5hunt]

Christy Clark is very concerned with the hardship the guiding industry has suffered. If the guiding association was thinking ahead they would have taken some of the $400,000 of Tourist Grants and put it in an account to help unfortunate fellows that got caught with infractions. In a round about way taxpayers are subsidizing the fines.

[palmer]

Wow..this thread has gone very slow

[Fisher-Dude]

The fines highlighted by FD's post above shows how inadequate the punishment is for guides that break the law. A RH would have his property confiscated and hunting privileges revoked for several years for the same infractions on top of the fines. It's unacceptable that the law is not applied with the same severity across the board.

Agreed. How someone can get convicted of multiple poaching incidents and still be guiding is beyond me. I'm still shocked that Bryan Martin didn't lose his licence for good back in the day. But then again, I'm not a statutory decision maker like a well-connected government bureaucrat who figures out these penalties.

[BgBlkDg]

Ah yes, the notorious Bryan Martin, who actually accused me and other BC hunters AND fellow GOs of doing the slimy things he was convicted of; he then had an American, friend of his on a US site actually threaten me........

Well, old, gimpy Canuck, that I am, I'm still here and I have not heard squat about Martin, for some years. Does anyone here know what this scumbag is doing nowÉ

[palmer]

Guiding in the Yukon



Ah yes, the notorious Bryan Martin, who actually accused me and other BC hunters AND fellow GOs of doing the slimy things he was convicted of; he then had an American, friend of his on a US site actually threaten me........

Well, old, gimpy Canuck, that I am, I'm still here and I have not heard squat about Martin, for some years. Does anyone here know what this scumbag is doing nowÉ

[BgBlkDg]

Who does he guide for or has he been allowed to obtain an outfitters concession there.

[palmer]

Who does he guide for or has he been allowed to obtain an outfitters concession there.


he sold in BC and brought an outfit in the Yukon

[Fisher-Dude]

And now Thomas' actions have added fuel to Suzuki's fire. Wait to go, GOABC Award Winner! Just what we needed.


B.C.'s trophy hunt shame
by Contributed | Story: 145467 - Aug 6, 2015 / 10:05 am
commentsBe the first to comment


By David Suzuki

A beloved animal, tagged for tracking by researchers, crosses the invisible boundary between protected and unprotected area and is killed by a hunter who has paid tens of thousands of dollars for the “experience”.

That was the fate of Zimbabwe’s Cecil the lion, whose killing sparked torrents of online and on-air outrage. But it also happens around the world every day, including here in B.C.

Many people are familiar with Cecil’s story. Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer and his guides, hunting at night with spotlights, are alleged to have tied a dead animal to their car near Hwange National Park to lure the lion. According to reports, Palmer wounded Cecil with an arrow, then tracked and shot the animal with a rifle 40 hours later. The lion’s body was found on the park’s outskirts, skinned and headless, along with the tracking collar.

Killing animals solely for “sport” or “trophies” is an ongoing and worldwide practice, and something Palmer had engaged in many times and in many places, including Canada. He was even convicted of charges related to an illegal bear kill in 2008.

Closer to home, a grizzly that was tagged for research in Banff National Park had the misfortune to cross from Alberta, where grizzly hunting is illegal, into B.C., where it isn’t, and was legally shot and killed. On the B.C. coast, people were outraged when a photo surfaced of NHL player Clayton Stoner with a grizzly he shot in the Great Bear Rainforest. Coastal First Nations have banned trophy hunting there, but the government doesn’t recognize the ban. The bear, named Cheeky by local residents, was skinned and had his head and paws cut off, with the rest of the carcass left to rot. Reports have also surfaced that the winner of the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C.’s highest award in 2015 was convicted of illegal grizzly baiting in 2012.

Even though many grizzly populations are vulnerable and close to 90 per cent of British Columbians, including many food hunters, oppose trophy hunting, B.C.’s government refuses to end the hunt, even in parks and areas where First Nations have banned the practice. Conservationists and other experts have challenged government population estimates, claiming they’re based on guesswork and that the real number is likely less than half the 15,000 on which the government justifies the hunt.

Large carnivores like lions, grizzlies and leopards that are targeted by big-game hunters are extremely vulnerable despite their size and ferocity. They range over large areas, which often puts them in conflict with humans and our infrastructure. Parks and protected areas are too small to provide adequate habitat, so bears often wander into areas where they can be killed by hunters or vehicles. They also reproduce later in life, infrequently, and their young often have low survival rates, so populations don't recover quickly when overhunted.

Large carnivores are also keystone species that play a crucial role in the food web by helping to regulate prey populations. B.C. grizzlies also contribute to rainforest growth by dragging salmon carcasses into the woods, where the fish remains and bear scat provide fertilizer. In B.C., trophy hunters have slaughtered more than 12,000 grizzlies over the past three decades. Like Palmer, non-resident hunters here pay large amounts of money to “bag” a grizzly because the species is protected in their home country, such as the U.S., or because populations have dwindled to a handful, as in Western Europe, where the species is now protected.

Killing animals purely for the “thrill” is barbaric and wasteful, and can’t be justified on economic or conservation grounds. Studies show more money can be made from people who want to view and photograph them. Research also shows very little money paid by trophy hunters benefits the local economy.

We’re at a critical moment in human history: our population, technology, consumptive demand and global economy are overwhelming the planet’s life-support systems — air, water, soil and other species. We’re in a global eco-crisis that demands a redefinition of our relationship with plants and other animals.

It’s time to end trophy hunting. In B.C., the government must listen to citizens and conservationists, respect First Nations laws and customs and end the grizzly hunt.

Written with contributions from David Suzuki Foundation senior editor Ian Hanington.

[bearvalley]

FD the baited bear, even though wrong, is a small part of Suzukis story. We're better off to focus on the big picture when it comes to media hype like he puts out. Most of that article is pure garbage, but the non hunting public doesn't realize that.

[BgBlkDg]

I know this only TOO well as I had two unpleasant encounters with *St. David* in 1970 and 1971; he was-is a real racist and perhaps the most arrogant jerk I have ever met.

He also is not credible and is a hypocrite with his rhetoric about climate change and his multiple large dwellings.

Then, there is the bullshit about so-called ...first nations laws... I do not accept any supposed *nation* in Canada, except CANADA and I certainly do not and will never obey some Indians bullcrap.

[Avalanche123]

FD the baited bear, even though wrong, is a small part of Suzukis story. We're better off to focus on the big picture when it comes to media hype like he puts out. Most of that article is pure garbage, but the non hunting public doesn't realize that.

Very good advise I say.....

[tuner]

Suzuki will use anything to further his agenda and more importantly further his foundations financial well being. Suzuki is more concerned with his own legacy than any of the causes he purports to care so deeply about. I wonder if he was surrounded by an entourage of young ladies in short skirts when he ponders the earths great mysteries.

[Jagermeister]

FD the baited bear, even though wrong, is a small part of Suzukis story. We're better off to focus on the big picture when it comes to media hype like he puts out. Most of that article is pure garbage, but the non hunting public doesn't realize that.
Now don't you think that the GOABC, since they created it, do damage control and rescind the award and petition the government to withdraw all guiding privileges? That would be a step in the right direction and would negate the Suzuki factor although not entirely.
The rest of us, especially if we are BCWF members can also petition the BCWF to seek the same penalties.
Mike, remember Frank, the original owner of the store just after you enter the pub parking lot. Well, way back when, Frank was a business member of the Quesnel F&G club. He was also a nice accommodating guy. One day, a "hunter" bagged an animal without a tag, this was before they were recorded on your licence. the "hunter" was stopped in a game check with animal and no tag and subsequently charged for the offence. The "hunter" said he had the tag but forgot it. CO told him to produce it at the office next day. "hunter" goes to Frank that evening and gets Frank to cut him a tag with a backdate on it. COs investigate and find tag out of date sequence and charge and convict Frank under the Wildlife Act. The F&G club had a order on the books that mandated that members convicted of a wildlife offence be immediately expelled from membership with no recourse.
Now from this example, if the GOABC has any credibility, they better get with the damage control posthaste and do the right thing.
You got that Ellis?

[bearvalley]

I'm not in disagreement with what you're saying. I've already said what I feel should be done with the award.
As for Wildlife Act offences, guiding privileges should be suspended for a period of time if warranted. For the few that seem to make a continual habit of breaking the rules of the Wildlife Act they should be suspended permanently. It's only a very few that are constantly casting a shadow on the profession.
Who am I to say though, I'm not the judge.

[Whonnock Boy]

You're right, they should, and that includes Martin Thomas. Several wildlife infractions including this one, in a few years, makes it a habit.

What upsets me the most about this is if any RH were to have this record, over this time period, we would not be hunting.


For the few that seem to make a continual habit of breaking the rules of the Wildlife Act they should be suspended permanently.

[Avalanche123]

[QUOTE=Whonnock Boy;1667030

What upsets me the most about this is if any RH were to have this record, over this time period, we would not be hunting.[/QUOTE]

Well...you don't know that for a fact. You might be right but don't jump to conclusions.

[Jagermeister]

I'm not in disagreement with what you're saying. I've already said what I feel should be done with the award.
As for Wildlife Act offences, guiding privileges should be suspended for a period of time if warranted. For the few that seem to make a continual habit of breaking the rules of the Wildlife Act they should be suspended permanently. It's only a very few that are constantly casting a shadow on the profession.
Who am I to say though, I'm not the judge.For once Mike, you and I are just about in total agreement but............ not quite.
You may not be the judge, but I am sure if you had something to say to Ellis he would sit up and pay attention. If he didn't , then he should resign and take Werner with him.

[Steve W]

You're right, they should, and that includes Martin Thomas. Several wildlife infractions including this one, in a few years, makes it a habit.

What upsets me the most about this is if any RH were to have this record, over this time period, we would not be hunting.

Lots of resident hunters have records equal too or more extensive than what we have seen from M. Thomas seen posted here on HBC. Fines get paid, suspensions get served and hunting privileges get restored. It doesn't make it into the medias because it's not that interesting to most of the people who watch the news.

[Fisher-Dude]

There are GOABC executives that have fisheries convictions.

[Avalanche123]

There are GOABC executives that have fisheries convictions.

I sure hope your life has been immaculate cause karma is a bitch..... just saying,,,, nor am I defending anyone.

[Fisher-Dude]

I sure hope your life has been immaculate cause karma is a bitch..... just saying,,,, nor am I defending anyone.

Do you guide for any of the GOABC execs?

My F&W record is spotless. Thanks for asking.

[bearvalley]

There are GOABC executives that have fisheries convictions.
Big deal. So do BCWF members, existing and ex CO's and a whole lot of others from the general public. Both fish and wildlife convictions. Along with vehicular, environmental and firearms charges.
So your point is FD?

[bearvalley]

Do you guide for any of the GOABC execs?

My F&W record is spotless. Thanks for asking.
Just make sure you keep your gun empty while your road hunting.

[Fisher-Dude]

Big deal. So do BCWF members, existing and ex CO's and a whole lot of others from the general public. Both fish and wildlife convictions. Along with vehicular, environmental and firearms charges.
So your point is FD?

It's no big deal to you guides if a convicted person is representing your organization, apparently? Those convictions are just a cost of doing business, I guess.

BCWF has a policy prohibiting those with convictions from serving.

Thanks for the segway to explain the differences in the organizations and their respective cultures.

[Fisher-Dude]

Just make sure you keep your gun empty while your road hunting.

Always is. You might want to search back thru my posts and see my responses to those who see loaded firearms as no big deal when in a vehicle.

You're on 2 strikes, 2 out, bottom of the 9th today. Go for the trifecta.

[bearvalley]

I can see the shrine now.... Fisher-Dude, the hunting & fishing Saint of BC.
Is that strike 3?

[Fisher-Dude]

I can see the shrine now.... Fisher-Dude, the hunting & fishing Saint of BC.
Is that strike 3?

Not yet. Here's a bit more rope. You'll do a good job of it, I'm sure.

[Spy]

I can see the shrine now.... Fisher-Dude, the hunting & fishing Saint of BC.
Is that strike 3?
Funny how when you have no argument left you go for the personal attacks, so childish but hey if thats all you got LOL :-)

[Spy]

Just make sure you keep your gun empty while your road hunting.
Lol more attacks you told me I put arrows in animals let them walk and move on to the next animal! When all I did is answer your question with no personal attack but thats your style get personal when I have nothing else!

[Avalanche123]

Do you guide for any of the GOABC execs?

My F&W record is spotless. Thanks for asking.

I could careless about your record or anybody else's....I have better things to do with my spare time than dig up dirt on people. And no I don't guide for any GOABC execs.

[curt]

what a joke he probably gets 10 000 ish per hunt his charge should have ben loss of guide privileges and 50000 fine douche bag guides

[Avalanche123]

It's no big deal to you guides if a convicted person is representing your organization, apparently? Those convictions are just a cost of doing business, I guess.

BCWF has a policy prohibiting those with convictions from serving.

Thanks for the segway to explain the differences in the organizations and their respective cultures.

Christ man you are misleading. The gentlemen in question doesn't represent GOABC anymore than you represent the BCWF. The person in question doesn't serve GOABC anymore than you serve the BCWF. I am not defending this person nor do I support his nomination for the award. Give it some time and hopefully something is done by GOABC but in the meantime, take a deep breath.

[Fisher-Dude]

Christ man you are misleading. The gentlemen in question doesn't represent GOABC anymore than you represent the BCWF. The person in question doesn't serve GOABC anymore than you serve the BCWF. I am not defending this person nor do I support his nomination for the award. Give it some time and hopefully something is done by GOABC but in the meantime, take a deep breath.

Wasn't even talking about Thomas. I was talking about GOABC execs having convictions.

I understand that you'll defend them because you're a guide. But I respectfully suggest that it's difficult for an organization like GOABC that is getting slaughtered in public opinion to defend itself if the leadership is allowed to serve with convictions under the various hunting and fishing statutes.

Picking Thomas as Man of the Year is just icing on that stale cake.

[Avalanche123]

Wasn't even talking about Thomas. I was talking about GOABC execs having convictions.

I understand that you'll defend them because you're a guide. But I respectfully suggest that it's difficult for an organization like GOABC that is getting slaughtered in public opinion to defend itself if the leadership is allowed to serve with convictions under the various hunting and fishing statutes.

Picking Thomas as Man of the Year is just icing on that stale cake.

I am not defending anybody. I am just tired of your mud slinging. And yes I agree GOABC definitely needs to step up to the plate and address the issue. FYI part of having Thomas as "man of the year" arises from clients nominating him....who are likely oblivious to his past or any regulation. As far as GOABC Execs having any convictions.....I have few details nor am I asking for any. Anybody I have ever worked for followed all regulations from what I was exposed to.

IF GOABC decides to continue down "said road", it will be unfortunately to their own demise. Yep I agree they need some sort of outside advise to get them back on track. At the end of the day, FN, GOABC, RH...we are all affected.