RCMP runaround.... Canadian Firearm Safety Course

[elch jager]

In 1979 I passed the Ontario Hunter Education Course which was a week long course covering safety and handing of all non-restricted firearms. With that I got my Ontario hunting license... I also got my FAC... when I moved to BC I was able to get my BC Hunter #... and I was able to get my POL...

Well now I have a bunch of inherited guns to pick up as well as a few gifts waiting for me and I also decided there are a few more nostalgic pieces I want to track down so I figured I would upgrade my POL to a PAL... I called the RCMP 4000 number before submitting my application for a PAL and asked specifically if I needed to take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course or was my Ontario course reference above adequate. I was told to send in my application that the Ontario accreditation was fine.

Friday I get a denial letter citing no proof of meeting the safety training requirement... a phone call today to the same number I called a few months back and now the answer is no - anything before 1993 is no longer valid, you must challenge the CFSC test... :roll: The person I spoke to sounded like she really couldn't be bothered to look into verifying her quick answer and just wanted me off her phone.

1) am I being misinformed?
2) if I need to challenge the test, can someone please provide a link to the online challenge (if there is one)
3) Is there an online course summary to review so that I am not surprised with any trick questions and recent changes that really would never apply to me... (like no 30/100 shot clips etc...)

[Sofa King]

http://www.autismafter16.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_large/article-images/red%20tape%20paint.png (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCPGbhfyE2cYCFcKdiAodsv4NWg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autismafter16.com%2Farticle%2 F04-19-2013%2Ftangled-red-tape&ei=8SukVbHfDMK7ogSy_bfQBQ&bvm=bv.97653015,d.cGU&psig=AFQjCNEHIye0Lp9B_AmbmUAdWkRg4Hfv5w&ust=1436908896931309)

[MichelD]

You can get the CFSC course book at any well stocked library to study the material.

[hoochie]

Ontario Hunter Education Course ... I also got my FAC...

Hunter education, regardless of how much firearms handling is involved, does not meet any requirement of a firearms safety course. An upgrade from a POL to a PAL or RPAL would require proof of having passed the Canadian firearms safety course; which if memory serves correct was even a thing until 1995/96.
Even with my then FAC, I was required to take or challenge the CFSC in order to get the then new RPAL.

[russm86]

Look up Bill C-42 which just received Royal Assent. If you currently have a valid POL already it will be automatically upgraded to a PAL once that part of the new bill takes affect so I would just wait and not bother chasing anything around as they all likely have no idea what's going on now that this new bill is half in affect already and more changes coming soon. If you want RPAL then you are SOL and will have to take a course, I believe the new Bill C-42 now prevents anyone from challenging the tests.

[Ferenc]

Grab a friend with a PAL and get the inherited firearms,
and upgrade your POL to PAL with restricted immediately if not sooner.. I had a FAC
and had to do the test...the way it is.

[hoochie]

2) if I need to challenge the test, can someone please provide a link to the online challenge (if there is one)
3) Is there an online course summary to review so that I am not surprised with any trick questions and recent changes that really would never apply to me... (like no 30/100 shot clips etc...)

The challenge needs to be done in front of an examiner. The hands on portion is what may cause "point loss"
During the test:
* what ever wall they say is the "safe" direction, don't put the muzzle in any other direction than that. don't point it up, don't point it down.. just that location.
* you may want to verbalize your actions as you "PROVE" the gun

I am Pointing in a safe direction, as I Remove the magazine/ammo as I Open the bolt.. then I can Verify the gun is unloaded.. now that this has been done.. I can Examine the bore

I got points deducted on my challenge for hesitating on unloading a single action revolver. "do I look like Jesse James????"

[Gun Dog]

An executor is allowed to possess any kind of firearm as part of an estate so they can hold onto them until you get a PAL.

[Whonnock Boy]

Like others have said, the POL can be upgraded to a PAL soon. Wait until that becomes available.

[Ferenc]

On the restricted the examiner told me to find the correct ammo for the handgun roll marked 7.65... I proceeded to go through the assorted ammo in his Tupperware containers and I could not find any ... In which I responded you don't have any... His reply was ..oh yes they are.. One more time I went through the ammo..I turned to him and said this is not going to work you don't have it here... He smiled and grabbed the .32acp out of the Tupperware container.....to me it was a trick ..only points lost on the restricted was this.

[hare_assassin]

I am Pointing in a safe direction, as I Remove the magazine/ammo as I Open the bolt.. then I can Verify the gun is unloaded.. now that this has been done.. I can Examine the bore



Nice. Too bad it is wrong. :lol:

[elch jager]

Like others have said, the POL can be upgraded to a PAL soon. Wait until that becomes available.

Well the guns are in Ontario - I will be there in Sept. for a visit. Hopefully C-42 is enacted prior to my trip. My sister, being a cop (and a stickler for the rules) should not turn them over to me without the proper license... Maybe I'll just package them up ready to ship and have her post them once the change happens...

The RCMP took my money to process the application though.... wonder if they will give it back?

My parents ain't dead yet.... just not going to be hunting anymore with one of them going into a care home.

[Coachman]

There are plenty of places that will run you through the firearms safety course in a weekend. Take the course, send the form, and you will have your PAL.. . The RCMP don't make the regulations, they just facilitate the program for the federal government. You're upset with the wrong people.

[j270wsm]

Grab a friend with a PAL and get the inherited firearms,
and upgrade your POL to PAL with restricted immediately if not sooner.. I had a FAC
and had to do the test...the way it is.

I got my FAC when I turned 18( 1999 ). When I had to renew it, things had changed to the PAL. I never had to re do the testing, just sent in my cash and paper work and received my PAL 3 months later. I wonder why others have had to redo the testing.

I'm positive the card I received from New Brunswick said FAC not PAL. Now I have to try and find the papers from my test and make sure I'm not crazy.

[sneg]

just take the course and get proper PAL.cheap , fast ,easy if you know your stuff..life has changed,rules have changed...

[The Dawg]

You can't challenge the PAL anymore. Need the course now

[2chodi]

Here (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20150619-91-eng.htm) is the RCMP bulletin. The requirement for the course has been implemented, but they have removed the timeline figures that were posted in the original bulletin for implementation of different parts of the bill.

[hoochie]

Nice. Too bad it is wrong. :lol:

And so it is!

[Cdn-Redneck]

Hub sports offers a one day course and have a class August 8. I upgraded my POL to PAL with a test challenge at this place http://firearmsafetytrainingcourse.com. They have courses all the time. There are you tube videos that show you how to P.R.O.V.E a firearm is safe.

[Philcott]

For info purposes.




THE VITAL FOUR ACTS OF FIREARMS SAFETY


Assume every firearm is loaded.
Control the muzzle direction at all times.
Trigger finger must be kept off the trigger and out of the trigger guard.
See that the firearm is unloaded - PROVE it safe.



PROVE




Point the firearm in the safest available direction.
Remove all cartridges.
Observe the chamber.
Verify the feeding path.
Examine the bore.

[TPK]

Hub sports offers a one day course and have a class August 8. I upgraded my POL to PAL with a test challenge at this place http://firearmsafetytrainingcourse.com. They have courses all the time. There are you tube videos that show you how to P.R.O.V.E a firearm is safe.

hmmm one day course .... minimum course length is 10- 12 hours NOT including testing .. makes it pretty close to impossible to do in one day. Absolute minimum time for the CFSC course is 8 hours IF it's a small class of 6 or less PROFICIENT
students (no newbies). Teaching a course in under 8 hours may result in suspension of teaching privileges for the Instructor. Be curious to know how many people in that August 8 class and if there are newbies in it ...

[elch jager]

I am quite confident I can ace a test without taking a course. I don't have the time to sit through a course. If I can't challenge the test without the course then I'll just wait it out for my POL to be upgraded to a PAL. I have already taken the Ontario equivalent, I have held an FAC and now a POL. I tried to do this according to the new rules, but am now being c***blocked by bureaucracy.

In actual fact, these guns were given to me decades ago... I am the legal owner and have just never gotten around to picking them up as I wasn't hunting for over 20 years... I just need to transport them to my home in BC. I thought it would be better to have a PAL when I did it though...

Any insight on when the bill gets enacted and POLs are converted to PALs? I knew this was in the works but have gotten tired of waiting for it. Months I can handle... if it will be years, then that is a different kettle of fish.

[scoutlt1]

I am quite confident I can ace a test without taking a course. I don't have the time to sit through a course. If I can't challenge the test without the course then I'll just wait it out for my POL to be upgraded to a PAL. I have already taken the Ontario equivalent, I have held an FAC and now a POL. I tried to do this according to the new rules, but am now being c***blocked by bureaucracy.

In actual fact, these guns were given to me decades ago... I am the legal owner and have just never gotten around to picking them up as I wasn't hunting for over 20 years... I just need to transport them to my home in BC. I thought it would be better to have a PAL when I did it though...

Any insight on when the bill gets enacted and POLs are converted to PALs? I knew this was in the works but have gotten tired of waiting for it. Months I can handle... if it will be years, then that is a different kettle of fish.

Interesting point. If you became the legal owner of those firearms while you held a valid FAC (back then), then I'd say you are good to go???
Just because they were "stored" at a different "location", they were/are still yours, and a POL (now) is all you need.
Just thinking out loud, but that would be my take on it. Don't take my word for it though, I've been wrong many times before! :)

[hare_assassin]

EJ,

POL should be just as good as PAL when it comes to moving firearms.

You did notify CFP when you moved, right?

[hare_assassin]

Interesting point. If you became the legal owner of those firearms while you held a valid FAC (back then), then I'd say you are good to go???
Just because they were "stored" at a different "location", they were/are still yours, and a POL (now) is all you need.
Just thinking out loud, but that would be my take on it. Don't take my word for it though, I've been wrong many times before! :)

That's the way I see it. The "acquisition" part of "PAL" is only needed to purchase firearms, not to pick up your owned firearms from another location.

There is no current list of firearms that you own that is bound to your POL, is there? So how the hell would any official know whether you owned them before or not?

But a quick phone call to CFP would take care of that. Just say "I have a POL and some of my (unrestricted) guns are at x location and I want to bring them to my home in Y location. Is that OK?".

However, their next question will be "does the resident at location x have a PAL/POL?"

[scoutlt1]

I think the key is when those firearms were passed on to you.
You stated that your parents are still alive.
I'm about as far from being a lawyer as one can be, but.....
If your Dad (let's assume he was the rightful owner of those firearms) gifted those firearms to you in year "X", and in year "X" you had a legal right to acquire those firearms (FAC), I see no reason why you can't pick up those firearms and take them home. I don't know why there would be anything wrong with your parents keeping them at their place....regardless if that time is a week, a month, or 20 years (no idea what your parents' FAC, POL, PAL status is/was at any time).
If it was me, and I had any concerns, I'd maybe ask my parents (mom or dad, whoever actually "owned" the guns), to have a letter notarized that states....."I gifted these items (firearms) to my son Justin Pierre James (ok.....that's probably not your name ;) ) on "date X". It's easy to get verification that you had a valid FAC on that date.

Again, just my rambling thoughts....

[hare_assassin]

Wait a second here...

Does this mean that every POL owner who is stopped with guns in their vehicle has to produce evidence of how, when, where, from whom the guns were acquired?

This isn't making any sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Isn't it as simple as "Cop sees guns in vehicle. Cop asks for licence. Cop sees POL. Cop only knows that the person in question is in possession of the guns. Person has possession of guns. Done. Good to go."

Where does any questions of "acquiring" said guns come into it? What am I missing?

Sorry, I just can't see a situation where a cop would start asking anything about when the guns were acquired. The fact that the guy only has a POL means, by definition, that he didn't buy the guns any time between FAC cut-over and "present". Why? Because he only has a POL!

Cop may ask "that's a lot of guns, what are you up to?" Owner says "I was storing them at my Dad's place while I was moving, and now I am taking them home."

Done deal. This isn't friggin' Ontario, after all.

[scoutlt1]

HA, I totally agree with you. And it absolutely should be as easy as that. I think there is no reason why a guy can't travel back from across the country with a trunk full of firearms under these circumstances.

I was just throwing a few thoughts out there that would/might make it "easier" for the OP to move ahead with what he's planning.

You have one firearm or 10+, you have a POL, done deal as you say. Completely agree.

[hardnocks]

The way I see it . you have known for 20 years you were getting these guns . for 15 of those years you have needed a pal to buy , inherit , or receive a firearm . you are not a victim of bureaucracy but your own procrastination .

Take the course and be done with it . I really do not think PALs will be just handed out at least I hope not.

[3centsolution]

When you pick up your guns in Ontario they are then in your possession,your guns your possession whats the problem. To purchase a firearm you need a PAL,your thinking like a bureaucrat an all too common problem these days.

[quadrakid]

i was in your exact situation,took the course and got my pal and was happy to of done it. Its nice to have a licence to buy.

[elch jager]

Still waiting.....

I have been buying non-restricted with my POL.... no issues.

did the RPAL course and challanged the test with a perfect score.... submitted perfect paperwork and have been waiting patiently since January.
My references said they were called 2 months ago so I finally dialed the 4000 number to check status.

I was told it has been sitting on the BC CFO desk for over a month waiting for his glorious blessing before being printed and mailed. Tried to find a number in Victoria to see if we could just move this along please... all numbers lead back to the feds.... I was advised to wait another couple weeks and check again.

I am getting a bit impatient now. I would like to pick up my Sig and get a new revolver as well....

[ROY-alty33]

I am quite confident I can ace a test without taking a course. I don't have the time to sit through a course. If I can't challenge the test without the course then I'll just wait it out for my POL to be upgraded to a PAL. I have already taken the Ontario equivalent, I have held an FAC and now a POL. I tried to do this according to the new rules, but am now being c***blocked by bureaucracy.

Welcome to the party jager...only your about 25 years late.....Hoops and bureaucratic BS we all had to deal with...


I have been buying non-restricted with my POL.... no issues.?????


1-800-731-4000. Ext.9530 was the bc cfo direct line

[VLD43]

Sometimes these things are delayed because the Firearms Officer has neglected them, and sometimes it is because they have found something in your past that they need to investigate further. Either way, it is frustrating

[TPK]

Hmmmm "did the RPAL course and challanged the test with a perfect score...." If you took the course then you didn't challenge the test and in fact you can't challenge the test, that's not been an option for a while now ... so hopefully "Challenge" was not checked off on your application or that would cause a BIG delay. The new course report forms do not have a check box for challenge any more. In any event, good on ya for getting your RPAL and hopefully it isn't too much longer of a wait.

[elch jager]

Hmmmm "did the RPAL course and challanged the test with a perfect score...." If you took the course then you didn't challenge the test and in fact you can't challenge the test, that's not been an option for a while now ... so hopefully "Challenge" was not checked off on your application or that would cause a BIG delay. The new course report forms do not have a check box for challenge any more. In any event, good on ya for getting your RPAL and hopefully it isn't too much longer of a wait.

... I thought challenge meant wrote.... I took the course, wrote the test and now I wait.... I was told everything was fine with the application, the CFO in BC just needs to give it final approval.

I figured I might as well get the RPAL now and have everything I could possibly need.

Yep, ROY - POLs were converted to PAL's recently - anyone with a POL can buy non restricted. (until Justin revokes that...)

[Singleshotneeded]

On the restricted the examiner told me to find the correct ammo for the handgun roll marked 7.65... I proceeded to go through the assorted ammo in his Tupperware containers and I could not find any ... In which I responded you don't have any... His reply was ..oh yes they are.. One more time I went through the ammo..I turned to him and said this is not going to work you don't have it here... He smiled and grabbed the .32acp out of the Tupperware container.....to me it was a trick ..only points lost on the restricted was this.

Lol, yeah 7.62 is .30 calibre...so 7.65 would be .32 calibre...but a lot of younger folks that didn't grow up before, during, or just after Canada's conversion to metric aren't as well versed in converting metric to imperial. We old farts had to...our first cars and trucks had speedos in MPH and those new signs say 60 KPH...so how fast can we go?? :-D
The cops were NOT amused when we told them the sign said 60 and we were DOING 60...dammit! ;-)

[elch jager]

Well... not quite a year since I started this thread, and I am happy to report that I just got my RPAL in the mail...

Bin out shopping and I think I may pull the trigger on a 6" stainless 357 mag revolver. Maybe a 1911 semi in 45 acp as well.... although my son is lobbying for something in .22cal

May drain the fun $ account this weekend.

[TPK]

Great news elch jager, sounds like you have some nice firearms in your sights! Thanks for updating the thread and have fun with what ever you decide to buy.

[RiverOtter]

Well... not quite a year since I started this thread, and I am happy to report that I just got my RPAL in the mail...

Bin out shopping and I think I may pull the trigger on a 6" stainless 357 mag revolver. Maybe a 1911 semi in 45 acp as well.... although my son is lobbying for something in .22cal

May drain the fun $ account this weekend.
Your son is a smart kid....:D

Check out the Ruger 22/45 Lites, they are an awesome little pistol and fun/cheap to shoot. With a steady rest I can get sub 2" 10 shot groups at 25 yards. The biggest drawback is trying to stay ahead with reloading the mags...:smile: