Breeding your female

[Brambles]

I have a female choco lab/springer 50/50 cross! Labradinger
I picked this breed because I thought it would be a great shed hunting dog!

i gave her 2 years to settle down and her hips and elbows to mature before running her too hard! Since her 2nd birthday in February she has really flourished with her she'd hunting! quite amazing to watch!

i would like to get a second dog, so I'm faced with either buying a male or breeding her with someone else's male and keeping a puppy.

can someone educate me .......will she be the same after a litter?

Thanks

Brambles


edit***.......not a mixed breed debate....

[Bear Chaser]

I've only ever bred one female. She definitely was not the same as before.
I don't know how it works with dogs.

[tadpole]

I've only ever bred one female. She definitely was not the same as before.
I don't know how it works with dogs.

:-P:lol::smile:

[Jim Prawn]

I've only ever bred one female. She definitely was not the same as before.
I don't know how it works with dogs.

Well done! LMAO!

[Foxton Gundogs]

We have been through this way to may times to go through it again, there are all kinds of pups available from good tested health checked lines to even consider breeding a bitch (or male) from untested lines. There are so many genitic problems that a seemingly healthy dog can carry that can turn joy to heartbreak in a short time it is not worth. the crap shoot. The best thing you can do for you and your dog is to have it fixed and look for a pup from tested and proven lines

[Edzzed]

We have been through this way to may times to go through it again, there are all kinds of pups available from good tested health checked lines to even consider breeding a bitch (or male) from untested lines. There are so many genitic problems that a seemingly healthy dog can carry that can turn joy to heartbreak in a short time it is not worth. the crap shoot. The best thing you can do for you and your dog is to have it fixed and look for a pup from tested and proven linesMe thinks they ought to test people to weed out the genetic defects in some of them. We breed dogs and no we don't test them. I see no point in it. Heart disease runs in peoples families so stop having kids. Life in itself is a wonderful thing but it does not come with any guarantees. We do however offer a 3 year guarantee of health for our puppies but like I tell people who buy, We cannot guarantee your puppy will not eat a poisonous plant, eat rocks or drown and we would also need an autopsy showing cause and if it is something we could have done differently then yes we would offer another puppy.....

[FirePower]

"Me thinks they ought to test people to weed out the genetic defects in some of them. We breed dogs and no we don't test them. I see no point in it. Heart disease runs in peoples families so stop having kids. Life in itself is a wonderful thing but it does not come with any guarantees. We do however offer a 3 year guarantee of health for our puppies but like I tell people who buy, We cannot guarantee your puppy will not eat a poisonous plant, eat rocks or drown and we would also need an autopsy showing cause and if it is something we could have done differently then yes we would offer another puppy....."

So after 2 years the hips go or the elbows or the heart or the dog suffers from EIC or PFK or eye problems and has to be put down. Oh you offer another puppy and that will mend a child's broken heart. do you even know all the genetic problems associated with your breed. When tests can be done and are not it is totally irresponsible, you are playing Russian Roulette with 5 loaded cylinders. You by your own admission are an irresponsible breeder and what is wrong with the dog breeding world today.

[Iron Glove]

Me thinks they ought to test people to weed out the genetic defects in some of them. We breed dogs and no we don't test them. I see no point in it. Heart disease runs in peoples families so stop having kids. Life in itself is a wonderful thing but it does not come with any guarantees. We do however offer a 3 year guarantee of health for our puppies but like I tell people who buy, We cannot guarantee your puppy will not eat a poisonous plant, eat rocks or drown and we would also need an autopsy showing cause and if it is something we could have done differently then yes we would offer another puppy.....

I'm speechless.
And that, I assure you is an extremely rare situation when dog breeding is discussed.

[Buckmeister]

Me thinks they ought to test people to weed out the genetic defects in some of them. We breed dogs and no we don't test them. I see no point in it. Heart disease runs in peoples families so stop having kids. Life in itself is a wonderful thing but it does not come with any guarantees. .....

Actually, there is good argument that heart disease is not genetic at all. What we pass on to our kids is bad lifestyle and eating habits that can lead to heart disease. Change the diet and behavior for the good, enjoy a healthy life. Same goes for cancer and other disease. The last thing people want to do is take responsibility for their own bad choices and admit they gave themselves the disease. They instead blame it on someone or something else and then expect that others can come up with a "cure" for them. Often cases, the proper "cure" is to stop doing what you did to give yourself the disease and start doing what it takes to be healthy. No guarantees of course.

[Brambles]

We have been through this way to may times to go through it again, there are all kinds of pups available from good tested health checked lines to even consider breeding a bitch (or male) from untested lines. There are so many genitic problems that a seemingly healthy dog can carry that can turn joy to heartbreak in a short time it is not worth. the crap shoot. The best thing you can do for you and your dog is to have it fixed and look for a pup from tested and proven lines

I thought you didn't want to get into it again?

I'm not a dog snob and don't NEED to have a purebred dog. I think purebreds are way too overpriced, over hyped and have too many health issues regardless of how much testing the breeder claims and warrenties against. It's pretty well proven that mixed breeds are generally healthier animals.

Sounds like breeders try and keep themselves in business by fear mongering........if your dog isn't a purebred from the bestest inbred lines, it's gonna be hobbling around from hips and drop dead of a heart attack and your children are going to be devastated!!!!

My new dog was $500 and it was painful to pay that much for a puppy, but I wanted that mix of breeds so I paid.....people who pay $1000, $2000.....$3000 and probably more.....are Nucking Futz.....


anyways....none of this bantering is being productive.

maybe someone else with some experience with females DOGS....lol...and if they changed for the better or worse after having a litter!!!

thx

[wiggy]

Well here we go. I breed dogs. I will tell you that if you want the experience and are ready to handle what can and does happen then go for it. Every female I've ever bred has become an even better dog
The bond you will have with her by being their that whole night and then for the next two to three weeks of no sleep just seals the deal. Completely. You have to be committed The pup you keep will be part of your family from moment 1. If you can put the time in, it is without a doubt the best way to get a great dog

[Jim Prawn]

Best dog I ever knew came from an abandoned litter of lab cross pups with parvo that was left at the SPCA. Lived a good long life and was the smartest dog I have worked with. Also have had two pure bread, fully "certified" labs in the family that had have health issues and died relatively young. No expert by any means but life is full of variables. Have heard of 28 year old Olympic athletes having heart attacks, and scotch drinking, cigar smoking 100 year olds...
JP

[Brambles]

Well here we go. I breed dogs. I will tell you that if you want the experience and are ready to handle what can and does happen then go for it. Every female I've ever bred has become an even better dog
The bond you will have with her by being their that whole night and then for the next two to three weeks of no sleep just seals the deal. Completely. You have to be committed The pup you keep will be part of your family from moment 1. If you can put the time in, it is without a doubt the best way to get a great dog

Thank you, that was the kind of knowledgable and unbiased information I was looking for....thanks!!

[FirePower]

I have no Idea why anyone would ask for advice and not listen to those with solid experience on the subject. There is no evidence that breeding a bitch will have any effect on it's attitude, trainability or temperament. What there is, is plenty of documentation on what quite likely will happen to the offspring of untested dogs that may be passing on to the pups. The unknown and possibly devastating effects of genetic health risks, ignorance can cause. But as they say ignorance is bliss, and apparently the heartbreak a new dog owner may feel when they are forced to destroy a young dog because it can't walk, or see, or collapses from exercising means nothing to you. Which makes you not only irresponsible but heartless, and for all you who think that is alright then I hope you like what you see in the mirror.

[Islandeer]

Hey there,

we have bred both of our females,they were littermates from their mom's litter.

Though keeping littermates is a bit of work, both of these girls really came into their own after their litters. they are awsome hunters,companions and have lots of field trial lines in them But yeah no negatives about breeding other than the always present risks to the bitch.

[Gr8 white hunter]

We had a Labradinger for 16 years loved that dog He was the best dog I ever had.

[Brambles]

I have no Idea why anyone would ask for advice and not listen to those with solid experience on the subject. There is no evidence that breeding a bitch will have any effect on it's attitude, trainability or temperament. What there is, is plenty of documentation on what quite likely will happen to the offspring of untested dogs that may be passing on to the pups. The unknown and possibly devastating effects of genetic health risks, ignorance can cause. But as they say ignorance is bliss, and apparently the heartbreak a new dog owner may feel when they are forced to destroy a young dog because it can't walk, or see, or collapses from exercising means nothing to you. Which makes you not only irresponsible but heartless, and for all you who think that is alright then I hope you like what you see in the mirror.

Did you get your wife tested before you bred her?

This is kind of elitist attitude and fear mongering is not productive. Mixing breeds might be frowned upon by the purists but in reality every breed is a mix. It's hundreds of years of inbreeding that causes the majority of health issues! That's why bloodlines are soo important when breeding purebreds and why some breeders go to great lengths to bring stock in from other countries!

mixed breeds health issues pale in comparison to purebred...... In reality your actually more heartless breeding purebreds!!!

[Iron Glove]

Brambles, I think it's great that you have a wonderful dog and you want to continue the lineage.
Also agree that purebreds are not a necessity unless of course that's what you want.
Our dogs are purebreds because that's what we wanted.
I suggest that the big concern here is not pure vs. mutt but rather tested vs. untested.
Why not get your dog tested and if all OK, then look for tested partner?
That way you will reduce ( can't eliminate ) the risk of producing a litter that worst case might have to be destroyed?
You can go online and see what tests are suggested in general and also breed specific.
Good luck.

[lorneparker1]

o you have any studies backing up your claims Brambles? I highly doubt it if you are looking for advice on here but im open to reading them. I always laugh when people ask for advice then shun it and then on top of that post absolutes damning the advice with no credible data/science lol

I am definitely on the improve the breed or don't do it crew. If the dogs breeding aren't at least health cleared for hips elbows eyes etc. then you are taking unnecessary risks. Can shit happen even after all the testing and precautions? sure. but I rarely read stories of messed up dogs and heart break from health cleared good line dogs. On the other hand I just read a story last week on facebook on a water fowl forum of a guy and his buddy that both bought labs from a back yard breeder and one 3 days the other 8 days after having them they had massive seizures and passed on.

Why take the risk?

Heres a real study

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/HealthyPets/InheritedDisordersOfDogs.pdf

[Cedar Cowgirl]

Brambles, I think it's great that you have a wonderful dog and you want to continue the lineage.
Also agree that purebreds are not a necessity unless of course that's what you want.
Our dogs are purebreds because that's what we wanted.
I suggest that the big concern here is not pure vs. mutt but rather tested vs. untested.
Why not get your dog tested and if all OK, then look for tested partner?
That way you will reduce ( can't eliminate ) the risk of producing a litter that worst case might have to be destroyed?
You can go online and see what tests are suggested in general and also breed specific.
Good luck.

IG, there is some merit to what you say. We had a Springer male go over 2 7 foot fences and get into my Golden bitches run. She produced 4 beautiful pups that are birdy as all get out. Both sire and dam are from FTC bloodlines and have had all the health clearances common for their breed. We still sold the pups under a Spay/Neuter contract. They will make amazing gundogs but there is no need to propagate cross bred dogs.


o you have any studies backing up your claims Brambles? I highly doubt it if you are looking for advice on here but im open to reading them. I always laugh when people ask for advice then shun it and then on top of that post absolutes damning the advice with no credible data/science lol

I am definitely on the improve the breed or don't do it crew. If the dogs breeding aren't at least health cleared for hips elbows eyes etc. then you are taking unnecessary risks. Can shit happen even after all the testing and precautions? sure. but I rarely read stories of messed up dogs and heart break from health cleared good line dogs. On the other hand I just read a story last week on facebook on a water fowl forum of a guy and his buddy that both bought labs from a back yard breeder and one 3 days the other 8 days after having them they had massive seizures and passed on.

Why take the risk?

Heres a real study

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/HealthyPets/InheritedDisordersOfDogs.pdf

Thanks for posting LP1, great info and link.

[hardnocks]

So who or how would you do a study on cross breed dogs . most studies have a agenda so who would want to prove crossbreeds are healthier . but are not a lot of the hip ,knee and eye troubles . caused by interbreeding of purebreds ?

[argyle1]

I don't see anything wrong with cross breeding dogs---all dogs were cross bred at one time.

[Brambles]

To set the record straight, I didn't intend this thread to be a purebred vs mixed breed argument, kinda like Chevy, dodge, or ford of the dog world.

Im not Anti-purebred, or Pro mixed.....I'm for whatever meets my needs, and at this juncture in life and for what I want my dog to do, I can get the desired results from a mixed breed.

i was more looking for experiences in changes with the females disposition and working drive before and after a litter, which some people were able to state their experiences......and that was very much appreciated.......now others turned this into a ford, Chevy, dodge debate and basically said you're a idiot and morally and unethical bottom feeder to even consider mixed breeding....I think Adolf Hitler shared those same views.......now if you think that ignoring advice that is clearly biased and fundamentally flawed(not to mention unsolicited) is the wrong thing to do then I'm sorry, you'll always be a follower. I'm sure the original breeders or Australian cattle dogs and labradoodles don't share the elitist attitude!!

now one member suggested that if the end goal is to breed her, then what about getting the health checks done!!!! Now that's a constructive thought that makes sense!

[Ranger95]

I have a female choco lab/springer 50/50 cross! Labradinger
I picked this breed because I thought it would be a great shed hunting dog!

i gave her 2 years to settle down and her hips and elbows to mature before running her too hard! Since her 2nd birthday in February she has really flourished with her she'd hunting! quite amazing to watch!

i would like to get a second dog, so I'm faced with either buying a male or breeding her with someone else's male and keeping a puppy.

can someone educate me on the pro's and con's on each...will she be the same after a litter?

Thanks

Jeff


I don't think that breeding your b!tch will change her temperate / personality - if anything it will make her a better dog.

my dog is a heeler, I got him from a member on here. No fancy papers but he is a great dog, does everything I wanted and more.

Papers and breeding don't make dogs, training, handling and tons of love make a dog!

[Cedar Cowgirl]

So who or how would you do a study on cross breed dogs . most studies have a agenda so who would want to prove crossbreeds are healthier . but are not a lot of the hip ,knee and eye troubles . caused by interbreeding of purebreds ?

Fact- you take a PB lab that is untested and cross it with a PB German Shepherd that is untested and both those dogs carry genetic defects and problems that are common to the breed. The fact the pups are cross bred does not dispel the chance that they will suffer from those genetic problems in fact they will me susceptible to the problems of both breeds instead of just one. To think otherwise is totally ridiculous
R95 breeding, the crossing of 2 bloodlines, not only make a dog(and everything else with a genetic blueprint) but can also unmake it. Papers are merely a tool we use to track the probability of that results of that making. You can most definitely have a good dog from unknown heritage but it's a crap shoot, you were just lucky enough to roll 7s with your healer and good for you. Training is the molding of raw material into a finished product, no matter how good and dedicated the trainer may be they can only produce what the raw material will allow.

[hardnocks]

Fact- you take a PB lab that is untested and cross it with a PB German Shepherd that is untested and both those dogs carry genetic defects and problems that are common to the breed. The fact the pups are cross bred does not dispel the chance that they will suffer from those genetic problems in fact they will me susceptible to the problems of both breeds instead of just one. To think otherwise is totally rediculous
Are not those genetic defects you talk of from interbreeding ?

[bowhunter123]

Something to consider. If your looking to breed to get a pup what about the rest of the litter. There are tons of well bred purebred dogs and cross bred dogs that will be just as good if not better of a dog for you. Most of a dogs abilities come from training not inate abilities. All inate abilities allow is prey drive and health, and trainability to an extent. This is why most breeders preech testing. They can plan on improving there lines to have good prey drive and trainability but those are just luck aswell. All purebred registered dogs give you is a pedigree that you can search and cross reference genetic defects. Its not a guarentee but hedges your bet that your paying for a healthy dog. Cross breeds are a crap shoot, lots end up great due to a bigger gene pool but can be just as unhealthy as poorly breed purebred dogs. Not all breeders breed responisbly. Your better off to find another dog cross bred or purebred and put the time and effort into training a better dog than breeding one and hoping you get lucky. the spca is full of good dogs that just need a smart trainer to be a great dog. And breeding to get a pup just makes it a hassle to find good homes for the rest of the litter. Homes that wont give up on them because they dont have the desire to train them into a good dog

[Foxton Gundogs]

Are not those genetic defects you talk of from interbreeding ?

Absolutely not genetic defects are not created by inbreeding. They are however nhanced and compounded by inbreeding as are desirable traits. This is the reason that papers and pedigrees play such an important role in breed development and the overall health and desired traits and instincts in individual dogs.

[bowhunter123]

Just some info on genetics defects to clarify for some. Sorry but ive read quite a few posts about purebred vs cross bred and find alot of people know very little about genetics. The vast majority of genetic defects are either mutated during an induviduals lifetime (ie cancer) or are recessive genes that create a defetive protein (ie most are testable) they are in every organisms on earth, its part of evolution. Some are good and become desirable to progress a species, some are bad and usually are eliminated by causing the organism to perish. Mammals have 2 sets of genes, one from dad and one from mom. So if there is a properly functioning gene that is dominant, you never see a problem because the recessive gene is masked. Hence the problem of my dog is healthy so its progeny will be healthy. If you test you can determine that your dog carries recessive problem gene x and can breed to a dog with healthy gene X that masks and produces healthy puppies that still carry a recessive gene x. Its never noticed without testing but can be pass on to future generations. Thats where a pedigree helps along with testing. You can determine who has recessive genes and mask them with dominant health genes to produce health dogs. You can also eliminate certain recessive genes if you plan long term, but there will always be different recessive genes for defects that havent been found yet, they just havent been matched to another recessive gene carrier. So any breeding without testing is a chance, as you dont know what recessive genes are in your dog. Also why people assume purebred dogs are full of defects. Its incorrect, its due to years of breeding for desirable traits, not based on eliminating undesirable one. Since many purebred breeders and backyard breeders understand genetics so little we are always going to run into this problem. There isnt a solution other than dont breed dogs without doing your research and be a responsible breeder. Sorry for the rant but pm me if you need more clarification or just google mendels peas...

[FirePower]

Just some info on genetics defects to clarify for some. Sorry but ive read quite a few posts about purebred vs cross bred and find alot of people know very little about genetics. The vast majority of genetic defects are either mutated during an induviduals lifetime (ie cancer) or are recessive genes that create a defetive protein (ie most are testable) they are in every organisms on earth, its part of evolution. Some are good and become desirable to progress a species, some are bad and usually are eliminated by causing the organism to perish. Mammals have 2 sets of genes, one from dad and one from mom. So if there is a properly functioning gene that is dominant, you never see a problem because the recessive gene is masked. Hence the problem of my dog is healthy so its progeny will be healthy. If you test you can determine that your dog carries recessive problem gene x and can breed to a dog with healthy gene X that masks and produces healthy puppies that still carry a recessive gene x. Its never noticed without testing but can be pass on to future generations. Thats where a pedigree helps along with testing. You can determine who has recessive genes and mask them with dominant health genes to produce health dogs. You can also eliminate certain recessive genes if you plan long term, but there will always be different recessive genes for defects that havent been found yet, they just havent been matched to another recessive gene carrier. So any breeding without testing is a chance, as you dont know what recessive genes are in your dog. Also why people assume purebred dogs are full of defects. Its incorrect, its due to years of breeding for desirable traits, not based on eliminating undesirable one. Since many purebred breeders and backyard breeders understand genetics so little we are always going to run into this problem. There isnt a solution other than dont breed dogs without doing your research and be a responsible breeder. Sorry for the rant but pm me if you need more clarification or just google mendels peas...

I agree with your post but find one statement incorrect, at least to my understanding. Not all testable genes are recessive. An individual can be possitive, negative or a carrier of certain genes. This alows us to know that if a dog is possitive we should not breed it, negative or clear and can be used for breeding purposes or recessive or a carrier of the defective which as you say will not show up but can be passed along, which is the most challenging. This is why it is so important to have dogs tested so you will know to only breed negative animals, spay or neuter a positive one and a carrier to a clear dog not another carrier. I have been on the dog world for over 65 years and it is amazing to see what we have learned about genetics in only the past dozen or so years. This is why it angers me so to see people pooh pooh testing their animals. With every dog tested we learn more and those nay sayers are doing a disservice not only to themselves, their dogs and clients but to the entire dog world.

[GoldNGun Retrievers]

It is easy to say cross breeds are healthier than purebred dogs, because very few owners of cross bred dogs have them tested for anything so statistics are based on purebred breeds.

[Iron Glove]

It is easy to say cross breeds are healthier than purebred dogs, because very few owners of cross bred dogs have them tested for anything so statistics are based on purebred breeds.

The report noted by Lorne earlier was based on Vet stats as a result of visits to the Vets and included all dogs, cross and pure.
Agree not quite the same as testing but might be a better indication of relative health.
My read of the report was it's pretty even.

[FirePower]

While I understand what Mr. Parker's report is saying, I agree with GGR's statement that the base line for the assumption of the 'hybrid vigor' theory is skewed due to an absence of information on the mongrel side.

[kinderdoggin]

The point is this. If the mixed breed dog is worthy of breeding, why just assume they are healthy and void of genetic issues. Just do the testing and prove it so puppy buyers don't have to worry. Unless a breeder (yes- anyone who is intentionally breeding dogs gets that title whether you want it or not) is planning to keep the whole litter or has devised a way to guarantee a singleton litter for their keeper puppy, breeding IS a matter that is up for public scrutiny. Trust me, someone breeding mixed breed dogs is not 'competition' for any of the reputable breeders on this site.... but no one wants to see someone jump into breeding casually. Every puppy produced that goes out into other people's homes is a major responsibility. Are you willing/able to find enough committed homes for the whole litter- will you take back a pup at any age if something happens to the owner so that one of YOUR pups doesn't end up in a shelter, will you stand behind your breeding by offering advice and options to puppy owners who have training or health issues?

Someone posted above that there are no guarantees in life so why bother with health testing.... I'd offer the counter view of since their are no guarantees on many parts of life, it is prudent to increase the odds in our favor when possible. Testing for recessive conditions (and planning a breeding appropriately) DOES offer a guarantee that pups won't be affected by those conditions. Breeding only dogs who have been tested free of hip/elbow dysplasia or heritable eye diseases DOES offer better odds that puppies will be born without those issues too (and yes, mixed breed dogs DO have these problems.... I know of 2 people who adopted mixed dogs believing the whole 'healthier' hybrid vigor thing and had to do hip replacement surgery for severe hip dysplasia... they had no idea that was even possible in a mix. Like mixing some dogs magically makes health concerns that are common in all dogs go away). Pedigree research allows you to prevent breeding dogs who come from lines with epilepsy, cancer, etc- things there aren't tests for but are thought to have a genetic component that one would not want to accidentally double up on.

Tons of things we can't control but why not control those we can.

To answer the original question- raising a litter does not usually affect the drive or working desire of the bitch. It does take away from her condition though, takes her time away from working, and of course there are inherent risks associated with pregnancy and whelping that one needs to consider before breeding. With that and the enormous amount of work it takes to raise a litter correctly, and the lifetime responsibility for each puppy- it's definitely not something to do lightly, so it's great to see that you are researching these things in advance.

[patbrennan]

Basic genetics tells us that in any animal there are many things that are recessive(both good and bad points), i.e. not apparent but they are in the genetic code, waiting to match up with another recessive to become apparent. A solid, intelligent, long term breeding program coupled with prompt removal from the breeding program of any undesirable features, does reduce the "bad" points. Just breeding two dogs, or anything else, together that look good guarantees nothing.
A second point is that the cheapest part of owning a dog is the purchase price, which makes it a poor place to economize.

[labguy]

The point is this. If the mixed breed dog is worthy of breeding, why just assume they are healthy and void of genetic issues. Just do the testing and prove it so puppy buyers don't have to worry. Unless a breeder (yes- anyone who is intentionally breeding dogs gets that title whether you want it or not) is planning to keep the whole litter or has devised a way to guarantee a singleton litter for their keeper puppy, breeding IS a matter that is up for public scrutiny. Trust me, someone breeding mixed breed dogs is not 'competition' for any of the reputable breeders on this site.... but no one wants to see someone jump into breeding casually. Every puppy produced that goes out into other people's homes is a major responsibility. Are you willing/able to find enough committed homes for the whole litter- will you take back a pup at any age if something happens to the owner so that one of YOUR pups doesn't end up in a shelter, will you stand behind your breeding by offering advice and options to puppy owners who have training or health issues?

Someone posted above that there are no guarantees in life so why bother with health testing.... I'd offer the counter view of since their are no guarantees on many parts of life, it is prudent to increase the odds in our favor when possible. Testing for recessive conditions (and planning a breeding appropriately) DOES offer a guarantee that pups won't be affected by those conditions. Breeding only dogs who have been tested free of hip/elbow dysplasia or heritable eye diseases DOES offer better odds that puppies will be born without those issues too (and yes, mixed breed dogs DO have these problems.... I know of 2 people who adopted mixed dogs believing the whole 'healthier' hybrid vigor thing and had to do hip replacement surgery for severe hip dysplasia... they had no idea that was even possible in a mix. Like mixing some dogs magically makes health concerns that are common in all dogs go away). Pedigree research allows you to prevent breeding dogs who come from lines with epilepsy, cancer, etc- things there aren't tests for but are thought to have a genetic component that one would not want to accidentally double up on.

Tons of things we can't control but why not control those we can.

To answer the original question- raising a litter does not usually affect the drive or working desire of the bitch. It does take away from her condition though, takes her time away from working, and of course there are inherent risks associated with pregnancy and whelping that one needs to consider before breeding. With that and the enormous amount of work it takes to raise a litter correctly, and the lifetime responsibility for each puppy- it's definitely not something to do lightly, so it's great to see that you are researching these things in advance.

Once again, the voice of reason.

Unfortunately, regardless of what factual information is presented there will always be those who ignore the truth, the facts, common sense, better judgement and good science.

This site has more than its fair share of folks who are just not interested in learning anything useful as it might conflict with their preconceived, ill founded, backwoods, dark age mentality.

This is truly unfortunate as it keeps many knowledgable, experienced and professional people from offering help as they are continually met with dim witted, argumentative ignorance.......

[lorneparker1]

Once again, the voice of reason.

Unfortunately, regardless of what factual information is presented there will always be those who ignore the truth, the facts, common sense, better judgement and good science.

This site has more than its fair share of folks who are just not interested in learning anything useful as it might conflict with their preconceived, ill founded, backwoods, dark age mentality.

This is truly unfortunate as it keeps many knowledgable, experienced and professional people from offering help as they are continually met with dim witted, argumentative ignorance.......

Pretty much exactly how I feel

Lorne

[Foxton Gundogs]

The point is this. If the mixed breed dog is worthy of breeding, why just assume they are healthy and void of genetic issues. Just do the testing and prove it so puppy buyers don't have to worry. Unless a breeder (yes- anyone who is intentionally breeding dogs gets that title whether you want it or not) is planning to keep the whole litter or has devised a way to guarantee a singleton litter for their keeper puppy, breeding IS a matter that is up for public scrutiny. Trust me, someone breeding mixed breed dogs is not 'competition' for any of the reputable breeders on this site.... but no one wants to see someone jump into breeding casually. Every puppy produced that goes out into other people's homes is a major responsibility. Are you willing/able to find enough committed homes for the whole litter- will you take back a pup at any age if something happens to the owner so that one of YOUR pups doesn't end up in a shelter, will you stand behind your breeding by offering advice and options to puppy owners who have training or health issues?

Someone posted above that there are no guarantees in life so why bother with health testing.... I'd offer the counter view of since their are no guarantees on many parts of life, it is prudent to increase the odds in our favor when possible. Testing for recessive conditions (and planning a breeding appropriately) DOES offer a guarantee that pups won't be affected by those conditions. Breeding only dogs who have been tested free of hip/elbow dysplasia or heritable eye diseases DOES offer better odds that puppies will be born without those issues too (and yes, mixed breed dogs DO have these problems.... I know of 2 people who adopted mixed dogs believing the whole 'healthier' hybrid vigor thing and had to do hip replacement surgery for severe hip dysplasia... they had no idea that was even possible in a mix. Like mixing some dogs magically makes health concerns that are common in all dogs go away). Pedigree research allows you to prevent breeding dogs who come from lines with epilepsy, cancer, etc- things there aren't tests for but are thought to have a genetic component that one would not want to accidentally double up on.

Tons of things we can't control but why not control those we can.

To answer the original question- raising a litter does not usually affect the drive or working desire of the bitch. It does take away from her condition though, takes her time away from working, and of course there are inherent risks associated with pregnancy and whelping that one needs to consider before breeding. With that and the enormous amount of work it takes to raise a litter correctly, and the lifetime responsibility for each puppy- it's definitely not something to do lightly, so it's great to see that you are researching these things in advance.

What LabGuy said only I would add 2 points.
1..In addition to testing the bitch you must also make sure you only breed to a tested male, which in the case of crossbreds finding one may be the most difficult of the endeavor as most PB owners with tested dogs may not be willing to breed to a cross bred and most crossbred males are probably not going to be tested. Also research the tests done for both(all) breeds in the mix and test for those, remember there are 2 or more breeds in a crossbred.
2..Although breeding will probably not detract from the bitches working ability it likely will not enhance temperament ability ets. either.

[Iron Glove]

While I understand what Mr. Parker's report is saying, I agree with GGR's statement that the base line for the assumption of the 'hybrid vigor' theory is skewed due to an absence of information on the mongrel side.

I totally agree with you IF we are looking at identifying existing potential problems - that is what breeders test for.
The report however does not deal with predictions, it deals with actual health problems and the results would appear to indicate that there is no significant differences between pure and mixed which can be interpreted as dispelling the "hybrid vigor" theory.

[wideopenthrottle]

I have often wondered if the high cost of purebreds make a person less likely to have a genetically inferior dog destroyed? hybrid vigour is not a myth (but it is not guaranteed either) in a crossbreed...anecdotally, the longest living dogs I have "met" have been crossbreeds/mongrels

[Cedar Cowgirl]

I have often wondered if the high cost of purebreds make a person less likely to have a genetically inferior dog destroyed? hybrid vigour is not a myth (but it is not guaranteed either) in a crossbreed...anecdotally, the longest living dogs I have "met" have been crossbreeds/mongrels

Again, and I mean this only as an observation, a conclusion drawn from a very limited number of 'test' subjects. This is exactly how myths are born.

[wideopenthrottle]

Again, and I mean this only as an observation, a conclusion drawn from a very limited number of 'test' subjects. This is exactly how myths are born.
only an observation not a conclusion... from what I have seen..yes very limited based on probably only about 100 dogs in my life...the hybrid vigour issue is fact but it is completely dependent on genetics and it is a rare occurrence. Even rarer is a true breeding hybrid where the hybrid characteristics are passed along to all offspring and their offspring (some might even call it a new breed at that point but there are "rules" for declaring a new breed)..again...Yes! the age observation I made is completely unscientific

[horshur]

you all put your money where your mouth is...marry your ;-);-);-) cousin

[Foxton Gundogs]

you all put your money where your mouth is...marry your ;-);-);-) cousin

Not without proper genetic testing LMFatAO

[Iron Glove]

you all put your money where your mouth is...marry your ;-);-);-) cousin

Well, I did have this hot Second Cousin ................................ ;-)

[Islandeer]

Once again, the voice of reason.

Unfortunately, regardless of what factual information is presented there will always be those who ignore the truth, the facts, common sense, better judgement and good science.

This site has more than its fair share of folks who are just not interested in learning anything useful as it might conflict with their preconceived, ill founded, backwoods, dark age mentality.

This is truly unfortunate as it keeps many knowledgable, experienced and professional people from offering help as they are continually met with dim witted, argumentative ignorance.......


LOL!!! Pretty much sums it up .... some folks just don't find the truth palatable..... guess they like the taste of bullshxt better.

[Gr8 white hunter]

So Brambles did you breed your Labradinger? We had one for 16 years best dog we ever had.we are looking for another one and they are hard to find.

[Brambles]

So Brambles did you breed your Labradinger? We had one for 16 years best dog we ever had.we are looking for another one and they are hard to find.

No, not yet, if I decide to it won't be till our blue Heeler passes to on, he's 14 and showing it!

[Sasquatch]

I've been off this board for a few months, but it's nice to know that when you return you can find the same old argument as when you left. There is comfort in consistency.

Labradinger is a great name for a mutt. I'm thinking of crossing a Hairless Chihuahua with a Pointer - I'm going to call it a Pointless.

[Brambles]

I've been off this board for a few months, but it's nice to know that when you return you can find the same old argument as when you left. There is comfort in consistency.

Labradinger is a great name for a mutt. I'm thinking of crossing a Hairless Chihuahua with a Pointer - I'm going to call it a Pointless.

Maybe you should leave a little while longer!!

[FirePower]

I've been off this board for a few months, but it's nice to know that when you return you can find the same old argument as when you left. There is comfort in consistency.

Labradinger is a great name for a mutt. I'm thinking of crossing a Hairless Chihuahua with a Pointer - I'm going to call it a Pointless.

Now that sir is funny, true but none the less very funny.

[yamadirt 426]

I've been off this board for a few months, but it's nice to know that when you return you can find the same old argument as when you left. There is comfort in consistency.

Labradinger is a great name for a mutt. I'm thinking of crossing a Hairless Chihuahua with a Pointer - I'm going to call it a Pointless.


Good one lol

[Brambles]

Don't feed the Troll's

[FirePower]

Don't feed the Troll's

"Trolls", because we believe in doing and promoting research and doing the very best for the dog world and our specific breeds? Really very poor retort indeed.

[Sasquatch]

Aw, don't take offense Brambles. I'm sure your labradinger or springador retriever or whatever the hell you call it is a good dog. It's been my experience that most dogs have better personalities than their owners. Mine didn't like pretty much anybody and still had a better personality than me.

[Brambles]

"Trolls", because we believe in doing and promoting research and doing the very best for the dog world and our specific breeds? Really very poor retort indeed.

No because instead of answering the actual question, a bunch of you purists decided to turn it into a debate on the ethics of breeding mixed dogs.....everyone has their own opinions.... And they are entitled to them, ...but don't troll someone else's thread to push your own agenda......you wanna fly a flag and string up a banner, promoting only purebred breeding....do it on your own thread!!

this is thread wasn't about what everyone's thoughts were on breeding mixed dogs vs purebred.... .....It was how a female dog changes in personality and drive after a litter!!!

if you have feedback on the original question, feel free to contribute....if you insist on the mixed/purebred tug of war...save it for someone else!!!

[Everett]

No, not yet, if I decide to it won't be till our blue Heeler passes to on, he's 14 and showing it!

Mayby breed the beloved long lived heeler with the new bitch. And a 14 year old heeler can turn into a 20 year old before you know it.

[Brambles]

Mayby breed the beloved long lived heeler with the new bitch. And a 14 year old heeler can turn into a 20 year old before you know it.


The the ol boy has been fixed....he doesn't know what to do when she goes into heat....it's funny how clueless he is about it!!

[Everett]

Damn that sucks

[Singleshotneeded]

Buy her a nice bottle of wine and play side one of Led Zeppelin 4...

[Sasquatch]

I'm not a dog snob and don't NEED to have a purebred dog. I think purebreds are way too overpriced, over hyped and have too many health issues regardless of how much testing the breeder claims and warrenties against. It's pretty well proven that mixed breeds are generally healthier animals.

Sounds like breeders try and keep themselves in business by fear mongering........if your dog isn't a purebred from the bestest inbred lines, it's gonna be hobbling around from hips and drop dead of a heart attack and your children are going to be devastated!!!!

My new dog was $500 and it was painful to pay that much for a puppy, but I wanted that mix of breeds so I paid.....people who pay $1000, $2000.....$3000 and probably more.....are Nucking Futz.....

I for one couldn't care less what mutts people decide to breed or own, or what ridiculous "breed" names they attach to the resulting mongrels, that's completely up to them.
However, I think you opened the door to comments about it with this little rant. I don't think it makes anyone a troll for responding to it. I guess only you are allowed to state your opinion on the internet? Anyone else who comments is a troll?

[BlacktailStalker]

I've bred my best female twice. She has not changed in any way whatsoever.

[Brambles]

I for one couldn't care less what mutts people decide to breed or own, or what ridiculous "breed" names they attach to the resulting mongrels, that's completely up to them.
However, I think you opened the door to comments about it with this little rant. I don't think it makes anyone a troll for responding to it. I guess only you are allowed to state your opinion on the internet? Anyone else who comments is a troll?


That at post was made AFTER some of our members decided to make this thread about mixed breeds, and how mixing breeds is unethical....again.....that was not the purpose of the thread..... but it seems like the purebred breeders on this forum just gotta put their 2 cents in, regardless of what the topic was actually about....

i can tell although you say you don't care what people do, by your demeaning and derogatory comments like "mutts", "ridiculous breed", "mongrel".... It is clear You subscribe to the elitist hitler attitude.

[Gr8 white hunter]

We had a Labradinger16 years and it was the smartest dog we ever had,and want another one but hard to find.Maybe if Brambles breads his dog we would be intrested.

[Foxton Gundogs]

We had a Labradinger16 years and it was the smartest dog we ever had,and want another one but hard to find.Maybe if Brambles breads his dog we would be intrested.

So here's the question, what will the lab/springer be bred with? Lab- the pups then become 3/4 lab, Springer and they become 3/4 Springer and now the dynamics of DNA, genes, traits and instincts have all changed. OK find another lab/springer cross, but even if the bitch has been tested for hereditary problems and defects what are the odds the owner of a male(if you can find one whole) will want to pay the $ to have it tested for 1 stud fee which may not even equal the amount of the tests. There is a reason the registries have very strict rules for breed creation and development. I am not against mixed breeds. we had a spaniel get at a golden despite our best efforts. The pups all turned out great, they are birdy with great temperament both parents were fully health tested but we sold them under a spay/neuter contract. My point is if you want a springer/lab cross, don't try to breed one, keep your eyes open for an oops from good tested parents. If you feel strongly enough about the development of the cross as a breed the do it the right way the CKC has outlines for breed development.

[Cdn-Redneck]

And here my dog is in heat and I am doing everything I can to keep her from being bred. Went camping and she didn't leave her leash for five days so I knew exactly where she was at all times.

[Foxton Gundogs]

And here my dog is in heat and I am doing everything I can to keep her from being bred. Went camping and she didn't leave her leash for five days so I knew exactly where she was at all times.
Good for you, good for your dog.

[Sasquatch]

i can tell although you say you don't care what people do, by your demeaning and derogatory comments like "mutts", "ridiculous breed", "mongrel".... It is clear You subscribe to the elitist hitler attitude.

I don't find the terms "mongrel" or "mutt" to be derogatory at all, simply an accurate description...sorry if you find them embarrassing or insulting for some reason.
I've owned plenty of mutts and never did feel the need to make up a new "breed" name for them. The idea just seems a little silly to me.

Mixing two purebred dogs and claiming the result is a "breed" called Labradinger - yeah, in my mind that's pretty ridiculous. But to each his own and I don't doubt they are good companions.

[Brambles]

So here's the question, what will the lab/springer be bred with? Lab- the pups then become 3/4 lab, Springer and they become 3/4 Springer and now the dynamics of DNA, genes, traits and instincts have all changed. OK find another lab/springer cross, but even if the bitch has been tested for hereditary problems and defects what are the odds the owner of a male(if you can find one whole) will want to pay the $ to have it tested for 1 stud fee which may not even equal the amount of the tests. There is a reason the registries have very strict rules for breed creation and development. I am not against mixed breeds. we had a spaniel get at a golden despite our best efforts. The pups all turned out great, they are birdy with great temperament both parents were fully health tested but we sold them under a spay/neuter contract. My point is if you want a springer/lab cross, don't try to breed one, keep your eyes open for an oops from good tested parents. If you feel strongly enough about the development of the cross as a breed the do it the right way the CKC has outlines for breed development.


That has certainly crossed my mind, I didn't want a purebred lab and am not even sure about 3/4 lab....I agree finding a suitable "labradinger" stud would be challenging....again, getting a little off topic?


And here my dog is in heat and I am doing everything I can to keep her from being bred. Went camping and she didn't leave her leash for five days so I knew exactly where she was at all times.

When my girl goes into heat, she never goes outside unattended. I don't let her run loose to be banged by every neighborhood dog. Even when not in heat and off leash, my dog must always be within sight or she gets a call back.


I don't find the terms "mongrel" or "mutt" to be derogatory at all, simply an accurate description...sorry if you find them embarrassing or insulting for some reason.
I've owned plenty of mutts and never did feel the need to make up a new "breed" name for them. The idea just seems a little silly to me.

Mixing two purebred dogs and claiming the result is a "breed" called Labradinger - yeah, in my mind that's pretty ridiculous. But to each his own and I don't doubt they are good companions.

If someone came up to you and called your dog a mongral I bet you'd say something!!!

I never developed the name, if you google it, someone else has done the whole naming thing, weather or not it was for new breed recognition or just something fun for them to call it. I use the term solely because I find people already know what it is!

My dog is from two registered and vet checked pure breds. English springer and chocolate lab. Not sure if the first breeding was intentional or not but the second breeding between the pair was. The owners of the female were super impressed how the pups from the first litter turned out and therefore did a second.

im not out there trying to design a new breed I just have my thoughts on what would make a good shed dog, and I had some reservations about getting a purebred lab. When I seen these pups for sale and did some research I couldn't find any negative comments from those who had them, I liked what the springer brought to the table in respect to hunting style, temperament and no lab stink...so I took the gamble.

Although her first year was somewhat challenging due to her energy out pacing her brain power I got her straightened out and now she's coming along nicely.

[Foxton Gundogs]

OK so ignoring the breed/traits/health test issue. I have bred and also seen a pile of bitches bred over my life time and can only think of 3 instances where they were significantly changed, and all in a negative way. All 3 became to varying degrees possessive and aggressive one to the point of having to be put down and it all started with "protecting" their puppies.. I have never seen a bitch altered positively from having a litter.

[BgBlkDg]

Well, in more than 60 years of owning purebred dogs, using them in high stress working situations and never having one of MY dogs under MY control bite a human, I totally agree with Foxton and enjoy his knowledgeable posts.

I have had Rottweilers for 29 years and love them, but, want a Drahtaar for hunting when I move home to Nelson. Any advice on where to buy a top quality started dog?