Stone's Sheep hunting and Gear

[Whisky Creek]

Hey fellas. I'd be interested to hear about different techniques for hunting sheep. Also, different opinions regarding techniques for glassing. I've hunted for about 25 years but always for other things that I can eat. This year we are going for sheep. My buddy and I decided to equip ourselves with new sheep / deer / goat rifles. (Not because .30-06 and .300 Win won't work, but because we both liked to use any excuse for new rifles, like most of us here.) :) He picked up a Tikka T3 in .25-06, VXII 3-9, and I found a Mark V Ultra Lightweight in .257 Wby Mag, VXIII 4.5-14. I'll be shooting 115 grain ballistic tips or partitions, and I believe he was shooting 117 gr bullets. We are going in on a Beaver and can spend a couple weeks if need be. I'm just deciding on optics at the moment and think I've have settled on a little green HDSTS65. Still wondering about a good practicle pack tripod, and looking for opinions and suggestions. Looking at doing a real light trip and looking for suggestions about the rest of the required or "should have" gear also. All that is set in stone at this point is the desire, the rifle and the optics. Any other valuable suggestions would be appreciated. All map co-ordinates for "honey holes" and known live "Booner Sheep haunts" will be used strictly for dreaming purposes only. :)
Take care for now,
CLINT

[srupp]

HMM we also have 2 Spatsizi LEHS for stone sheep....please print the honey hole secret GPS co-ordinates here..please type SLOW as I cant read very fast....thank " EWE "....

Steven

[Orangethunder]

I picked up Leupolds compact tripod and I love it. It isn't the lightest but it is super steady and very easy to adjust and it also has a nice price. As for some must haves I would recommend an ultralight tarp, a Primus stove (I have found them to be WAY lighter and quicker than gas models), Petzl Tikka headlamp, therma rest prolite sleeping pad, a silk sleeping bag liner from MEC (at the end of a long stinky hunt it will save your bag). I also use a pump type water purifier, made by MSR, that screws onto the top of a Nalgene water bottle. It makes getting water out of shallow sources easy and clean. This year I am going to pick up the hike and hunt shooting/walking stick combo from Stoney Point as well. They will help ease heavy loads on steep slopes and give us something to tie our tarp. Oh and they are a good rest IF you have to shoot. Just my .02, good luck.

[Macgregor]

Hey whiskeycreek. I'm not sure if this is your first sheep hunt or not. But if it is coming from a newbe into it ( one sheep hunt under my belt) You can have the best of everything but make sure your getting your legs into the best shape they've ever been in cause it's tough up there.

[300mag]

I try to go in with a pack less than 45lbs. Start weighing your pack with what you want to take , then start cutting things and start looking for lighter items. I have a MSR Twin peaks tent and a Goretex bivy bag, I carry the pristine water purification system(MEC)..One thing I noticed I always come home with food...Don`t buy cheap stuff it won`t last..

[bigwhiteys]

Whiskey,

For a tripod I bought the Manfrotto 718 SHB for $99.00 off eBay. It's a good tripod, very sturdy.

For your spotting scope if you are spending the money on the Swaro HD then go with the 80 and not the 65... It's superior glass and if you are going to spend that cash on the 65 you may as well go all the way. After speaking with a few optics dealers, reading many reviews (from birders) and also using the scopes in the field I chose the Zeiss 85mm and it's every bit comparable to the swaro HD and superior to the regular swaros... It's not quite as much money either.

Mountain House is the best freeze dried food bar-none... I've tried several different brands... the MEC stuff (backpackers panties) are nasty...

300Mag,

I would be interested in checking out your gear list... I work pretty hard at lightening my load and have all the expensive and lightweight gear... My pack weight is about 56lbs with rifle and thats with 8-10 days food. Mind you I can split a bit of gear with my partner probably brining it down to 52lbs or so.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

(backpackers panties) are nasty...
Happy Hunting!
Carl

I don't think you'll find any argument there:eek: .


I've got an avid sheephunting friend that bought the 80mm Swarro so I asked him what he thought of it before I bought mine and he said he loves it but it's just too big. I went with 65mm. I find space is at a premium when backpacking. I can fit the spotter and the Bogen Manfrotto 718shb tripod in my 18" side pocket on my backpack. There's no way I could fit the 80mm and my tripod in the same pocket.
Sounds like I paid too much for my tripod compared to BW:-( .

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

Mountain House is the best freeze dried food bar-none... I've tried several different brands... the MEC stuff (backpackers panties) are nasty...


So, for the cooking instructions on those panties, does it say "Boil the piss outta them"? :lol:

[bigwhiteys]

Yep... Backpackers panties are the worst freeze drieds I ever had... They never fully cooked and it was like eating soup no matter what the meal was.

The Zeiss 85mm is even slightly bigger (around) then the swaro 80HD but it is a bit shorter... I bought an attach-a-pocket and strapped it to the back of my pack... The tripod goes on the side. Glassing sheep early morning and evening the 20mm difference in objective lens make a big difference in light coming in and image brightness.

If you're going to spend $2000+ on a scope you may as well go all the way... but that's just my opinion.

Carl

[Buck]

I ve hunted Spatzizi for goat.We flew into Cartmel lake which is a great spot .We saw two ewe sheep no rams in the area.If you go there bring a nice base camp setup and do overnighters out of there,and a raft to get across the lake.

[Orangethunder]

I really liked the Alpine Aire stuff even more than the Mountain House, each to their own. One mistake I did witness was a buddy took his out of the foil packets to save weight and as it turned out they didn't cook that well, there was alot of crunching noises. I like the one pot, one spoon and no dishes thing, just eat out of the bag.

[bigwhiteys]

I like the one pot, one spoon and no dishes thing, just eat out of the bag.

Me too... I take my jetboil stove which has a 1 liter pot built in and then a spork... Burn the leftover foil bag in the fire.

Taking the food out of the foil packet before probably wasn't a good idea... Mountain House has some new packaging (propack I think) that are slightly smaller and more compact.

Carl

[Whisky Creek]

Some good information fellas. Thanks.
SSS and Carl. The reason why I was thinking the 65 instead of the 80 is for size. The twilight factor differences are about 10%. Is that a hugely noticable difference while glassing in lower light conditions? Also, a friend of mine just bought a Zeiss 85mm and wishes now he'd gone with the smaller one. He hasn't even hit the mountains with it yet. Anyone else out there pack a 65 or 80 mm scope (or bigger)? What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
CLINT

[bigwhiteys]

SSS and Carl. The reason why I was thinking the 65 instead of the 80 is for size.

For the Zeiss scopes we are talking about 1/2 pound difference and under 2" in length between the two... (65-85) I've used both the Swaro HD 80 and the Zeiss 85mm (friends before I bought mine) in the mountains on different trips... Both were easily packed and worked great... no complaints on size.

Swaro's run more money and from everything I've read, and seen with my own two eyes (through the scopes) most people won't even notice a difference between the two other then the Zeiss 85 mm obviously gathers more light through the objective.

Yes the 85mm - Most definitely makes a difference in lower light conditions.

If you can lose a 1/2 pound of other gear (clothes possibly) I would personally be happier with the bigger, better scope... Then again until I bought the Zeiss I was using a Bushnell spacemaster II and was more then happy with that. (And I've seen plenty of other sheep hunters & guides using the same)

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[StoneChaser]

Some good information fellas. Thanks.
SSS and Carl. The reason why I was thinking the 65 instead of the 80 is for size. The twilight factor differences are about 10%. Is that a hugely noticable difference while glassing in lower light conditions? Also, a friend of mine just bought a Zeiss 85mm and wishes now he'd gone with the smaller one. He hasn't even hit the mountains with it yet. Anyone else out there pack a 65 or 80 mm scope (or bigger)? What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
CLINT

The Zeiss 85 is certainly BIGGER...but I'd argue it being "better".

I opted for the Zeiss 65...smaller and plenty of scope. It is already large enough (double the size of my B+L Elite 15-45x60), I found the 85 a fair bit bulkier and that much closer to the Hubble for portabilty, and I found it tested the limits of any tripod that was what I considered even half portable.

The Zeiss 85 is actually over 3/4 lb heavier (38.80oz vs 51.15oz), but where it lost out for my needs was not light gathering (I can use the Zeiss 65 down to last legal shooting light no problem), but Field of View.

More importantly for me in the moutains is not the extra magnification (lost on a lot of days due to mirage (heat waves) anyhow), but FOV. The wider the FOV the easier it is to pick apart a hillside through the spotter without feeling like you're looking through a piss hole in the snow...the Zeiss 65 has a 24% GREATER FOV on the low end...fairly substantial for my use:

Zeiss 15-45x65mm:

FOV 168' (15x) to 78' (45x)

Zeiss 20-60x85mm:

FOV 129' (20x) to 60' (60x)

I tried 'em both, and the 65 was a better choice for an all purpose spotter, and particularily as a back pack spotter...you may find your requirements are different (maybe the 85mm is for you, it's a great scope too (if you have your own Sherpa (grin)).

StoneChaser

[Krico]

I bought a 65mm scope(although not Zeiss or Swaro:-( , out of my budget) and it's as big as I need, especially considering the miles it will be doing on my back. You'd have a tough time going wrong with any of the scopes mentioned above. Just depends on what you're willing to carry...and spend...

[bigwhiteys]

As far as low light...I've yet to have any issues with the Zeiss 65 right down to legal shooting light.

You probably won't have any issues in low light the image is still excellent but I will guarantee you that it's a brighter, clearer image through the 85mm. I've looked through both in low light and the difference is significant. (any of the reviews I've read also concur)

Take a leak and a crap in the morning and you've just dropped your 1/2 pound in extra weight. To each his own!

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[one-shot-wonder]

I have a 65mm HD swaro and love it. It is actually a bit lighter and smaller then the old Bushnell junker I had before, so needless to say the superior clarity and light gathering ability was overwelming and the shed ounces and size was an added bonus.
This is the most important peice of equipment one uses while sheep hunting. Regardless of the size and weight of your optics, I feel the quality is a must! They are worth their weight in gold and can not be comprimised!
I must have a lot more work to do to get my pack down to your guys' weight. I can't seem to get 'em below 60-65lbs. I don't mind the extra work knowing I have an spare meal and some extra clothes in my pack.

[Fisher-Dude]

Mountain House is the best freeze dried food bar-none... I've tried several different brands... the MEC stuff (backpackers panties) are nasty...



Thongs can be used also but makes for crossing creeks a little trickier.

I think I'm beginning to understand One Shit's preference for wearing a thong when he's sheep hunting. After a few days, he boils it up and eats it. Saves weight in his pack. Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[one-shot-wonder]

I think I'm beginning to understand One Shit's preference for wearing a thong when he's sheep hunting. After a few days, he boils it up and eats it. Saves weight in his pack. Brilliant! :rolleyes:

What ever works and keeps me in the mountains and off of a quad!

[GoatGuy]

This is the most important peice of equipment one uses while sheep hunting.

Especially when you're a gibble sheep hunting off a quad :lol: :lol:

[kutenay]

I tried all the sizes of the "big three" spotters for quite some time as I saved and scrimped to replace my Leupy Compact 25x, bought in 1990, when I dropped my B&L Discoverer on a rock and it split in two.

I finally went with the Leica 62 Armoured version, as I prefer the adjustments to those on the Swaro HD65, which was my second choice. My hunting partner is young, very fit and has climbed and hunted all over the world, he packs his Leica APO-77 and I pack the L-62......this is about as useful a combo as I have seen.

You can buy a LOT of useful clothing and other gear "el cheapo" and there is LOTS of used stuff out there; BUT, the finest optics, boots and pack REALLY make a difference in mountain hunting and are well worth spending the $$$$$$ on.

[Nimrod]

If your buying new boots get them now!!! break them in thoroughly, walk full days under as much load as you physically capable of carrying. Do this as often as you schedule will allow leading up to the hunt. All the fancy expensive gear won't do you any good if your feet are ruined and your knees and lower back are shot.
don't get me wrong, expensive light gear is fantastic but your body is the most important piece of equipment.

[Whisky Creek]

Roger that, about the boots. That's also a real pretty sheep ya got there Nimrod.

CLINT

[Mattimoose]

Roger that, about the boots. That's also a real pretty sheep ya got there Nimrod.

CLINT

To quote Saddam Hussein, I know" Jack-Shi-ite" about sheep hunting. But it's all in the boots. You must take care of your feet if they are to take care of you. The rocky hills I used to call "Mountains" sure shrank the first-time I went to BC.I finally understood what my BC friend was saying when he told-us we had too much sky. Our mountain behind-us is micro to your macro but the song remains the same. Good boots with adequate ankle support/protection is paramount. Sometimes even that doesn't help amongst big rocks. A good friend I grew-up with slipped into a rocky crag and snapped his leg just below the knee.

[David Heitsman]

Whiskey Creek:

http://www.wildsheep.org/directory/grand_slam_advertisers.htm#BC

If it was me, I'd call the Collingwoods above as I think that tag is in their area. Ask for the son in law Billy, he was a fishing guide on the Babine River for my friends who ran a steelhead lodge there. Tell him I sent you. He's an aquaintance and has offered me trips in for sheep before when I have visited at SCI in Reno.

Do you want to walk around for 10 days and lose 20 pounds or do you want to get a ram? Negotiate a daily rate with harvest fee to keep the interest up on their side./ Have no idea what the fee would be but you could use their spotting scope and save yourself a couple grand right there! Besides who wants to eat freeze dried anyway!

I have flown into Cold Fish Lake which I think is nearby and then flew to the sheep sancturay area that Dr. Geist wrote about but couldn't see anything from the air.

Sure would like to hear later how you make out.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=David Heitsman]
Do you want to walk around for 10 days and lose 20 pounds or do you want to get a ram? quote]

Personally, I rather walk aroud for 10 days, lose 20 lbs AND get a ram. Binderdunnit. Doesn't get any more rewarding8) .

SSS

[elkguide]

In the first 6 years of my guiding career I was a Stone sheep/goat guide. the Best advice I can ever give a person that isn't familiar with Stones is Glass...glass.....glass....and glass some more. Most times I spend all day in the same spot glassing the same hillside and 6 or 7 hours later sheep apear from out of nowhere. The are trully "stone" sheep. and get a great( not just good) pair of boots.

[Krico]

Whiskey Creek:

Have no idea what the fee would be but you could use their spotting scope and save yourself a couple grand right there! Besides who wants to eat freeze dried anyway!

A couple grand off a $15,000 -$20,000 hunt is still not going to get the price where it's affordable for most guys. For that kind of cash you can do it yourself every year for the next 10-20 years, and buy some pretty nice gear along the way. I'd rather have the gear for all my hunting needs and memories of all those hunts with my buddies/family and a few trophies than what one guided hunt can provide. For me it's about more than just ticking "species x" off my animals to harvest list.

[srupp]

Well nothing ever exciting happens to me...HOWEVER I did get the Spatsizi draw...:lol: ....THIS time I get to shoot first...:eek: Tim already has a Stone sheep..so far I bought a home gym AND had a treadmill already..and have lost 50 pounds in preperation...its a start.

I have Miendles "Canadians " BOOTS BROKE IN BUT NOT BROKE...
I have brand new 8x43 Baush & Laumb elite MAGNESIUM BODIED binoculars...optics are unbeatable..and weigh nothing..
I have the new HD..leupold 12-40x 60 mm spotting scope..very lightweight and amazing clarity...

We have a water purifier..and two tents one for basecamp...and one for spike camps...
Tikka LED lights
top of the line hiking poles..they help me substantially

Cabelas Whitail series rain gear jacket and pants..gortex..

pack is a LOT too heavy...Cabelas top of the line..it will hold all my gear and a sheep..but man its like 10 pounds empty...
Olympus digital water proof digital camera..size of a bar of soap...

Gps lowrance Ifinder Hunt model..
radios...26 kilometer range..very compact...

My rifle is my Browning with Leupold Gold ring scope 2.5-10x...

Food is freeze dried tim picked up at ???MEC???

sO WE HAVE STARTED with the preperation..we hope to be out in 10 days but have 21 days we can spend in there...

Steven

[Mik]

I had the Spatsizi Sheep draw last year. I figured that I could just walk in off of one of the trails...wrong move....walked for 8 hrs and it was bush,bush and more bush, some openings and clearings, but nothin' there!:-( 3 different days each of hiking around and nothin' all 'cause I was too cheap to fly in!!!! Don't get me wrong, it was fun and the country was beautiful, but in the end got skunked:cry: Talked to some people that were in there on horseback and they too never saw a Sheep.We gave up on the Sheep and decided to pursue the other animals with success. As for equipment, I use a leupold 12-40x-60mm Goldring and its inexpensive (compared to swaro's) and great. The Miendle boots give awesome ankle support. I use a cheap $160 nylon/metal backpack, but it does the trick. All I can say is get fit and good luck.
Mik

[Nimrod]

Don't know about some of the other guys in here but it's a good idea to bring some industrial thread, a good needle ,and a small tub of aqua-seal , dental floss works good to. You can repair anything with this combination. a blow out seem is not good up on a mountain 8 hours in.

[7mmag]

I don't know much about hunting sheep, but I've spent alot of time working out of a fly camps.

#1 a GOOD pare of broken in boots and lots of extra socks
#2 a good topo map\gps\compase
#3 High enrgy food.... lots of fat lots of carbs
#4 you will not regret taking the time to set up a good base camp
#5 do not head out with a cheap or dull axe (I've seen people do that:shock:)
#6 extra rope, some good qualty plastic bags, and some duct tape

Remeber you'd be suprised how much you can fit into a beaver, but leave room for all that sheep meat:smile:

[David Heitsman]

Krico,

As the sheep tag is not from an outfitters allocation I would expect the trip to cost you 6 to 8 K not 20 - 25K as a non resident is more than willing to pay. It's still alot I am not going to dispute that. However
it's quite a bit less than the payments on a diesel truck and jet boat for
a year.

Srupp,

I also have the Leupold 12-40 X 60 and have been satisfied with it every time. I don't get eyestrain and I have had plenty of my guides over the years prefer it to their European models. Mine is probably 10 years old now.
What does the HD stand for?

I also use Meindls only as well. I have the models that have the rubber rock guard up about two inches all the way around. It seems that when you are walking on frosty grass in the AM that is melting you may as well be crossing streams and this is the only way to keep the water from getting absorbed into the leather. I've never had a wet feet problem unless I couldn't remove them for stream crossings.

[srupp]

HI Dave..HD is the NEW MODEL..it stands for HIGH DEFINITION....I have used BOTH and the difference is between nite and day...its the glass and the optics...difference between standard TV and HIGH DEFINITION...the difference has to be seen to be appreciated...as well as the cost...retails in Canada for $1700 with taxes...

Check it out on line....and chuckle I had the TOP OF THE LINE Leupold and I personally liked it better than Euro makes..imho..as well with my B&L ELITES lighter and to my eyes better optics...(thats gonna cause a discussion lol) than Euros costing 2x...hey they retail for $1700 for the 8x 43 so they are NOT cheap binos..I had one of the original pairs (seriel # 100 ) untill recently..new ones seem even better ?? lighter anyways..

Check out the Leupold HD..

PS we ARE flying in..save the legs for the hunt????

Steven

[Krico]

DH-I have a hard time believing a GO would want provide the same resources (people, plane, horses, gear etc.) to help someone harvest a ram from their guiding territory for less than half the price of their other sheep hunts, unless they were already harvesting their full quota with time, resources and rams to spare. They can make around 6 K on a moose hunt, and keep the precious sheep to their "full price clients." Not being sarcastic, just looking at it from a business point of view on the GO's side.
p.s.-Whiskey-sorry about the hijack. Good luck on your hunt.

[David Heitsman]

Krico,

Call any of them and make sure they know you are a BC resident and most
will have discounted price list for fully guided or packing type of service or combination. You won't see as much of a discount on other species that are non allocated or where the allocations are higher than they would harvest.

If you look at last years BC Hunting regulations , many BC outfitters
took colour ads out offering their services to BC residents. With the minimal access available to residents in some areas, it is in the local outfitters interest to increase the resident harvest rate in order to maintain their own quota. They do this by providing access to their camps, horses and guides.

Stone Mountain Safari in Toad River comes to mind as they are actively marketing one or two more resident Stone's sheep hunts yet for fall 2007. Barry Thomkins has had a resident sheep hunting program in the Gathto area and elsewhere for many years.

I am hunting this fall with Tuchodi River Outfitters in the Tuchodi and upper Gataga regions. My primary species is Stone's sheep. They have a complete BC residents package.

PM me if you want more details.

[BCrams]

David,

I am curious, why do you want to utilize the services of a guide outfitter for your Stone's sheep hunt when you are a resident and could do it yourself? Obviously you have the $$ resources to equip yourself and prepare for a great do it yourself hunt!

Is it rewarding for you to get a ram that another person has found for you? Is the reason because you want to avoid the possibility that you may not be able to find yourself a Stone's ram on your own with a partner, and by hiring an outfitter, you will meet your objective by pulling the trigger on a ram sooner than later?

Even if I could afford an outfitter, I personally would not want to. Don't get me wrong, I would hire an outfit in the NWT or Yukon in order to get a Dall's ram if I could afford it, only because it is required by law.

I am keen to see what happens when residents like yourself start utlizing outfitters for their sheep hunts. What kind of impact will it have on resident sheep hunters who cannot afford to hire an outfitter? Is there an underlying motive on the GO behalf to increase resident success and the 'value' of sheep hunts? Do the outfitters start demanding the government for LEH because they say they're guiding X number of paying residents which will obviously increase the success rates for X number of rams in their guide concession?

To each his own. I am sure you will enjoy a great hunt with Larry and crew and a congrats goes to them should you shoot a ram!

[bighornbob]

Looking at it from the outfitters perspective, why would he take a resident to an area that has rams for a couple of thousand bucks. You find out where the rams are and then you go back the following year and hunt without the guide. Or even worse the resident tells his buddies where to hunt, then even more of the rams are killed. I dont see this as a benifit for the outfitter for a few thousand dollars.

How do you know the outfitter is not just taking you into an area that is devoid of sheep or ewe and lamb grounds or bands of rams that they have already killed the legal rams out of. I have heard of outfitters doing this to full paying clients becuase they have overbooked and already filled their quota on sheep. A hunter comes into camp expecting to get a ram and he gets a 20,000 dollar sight seeing trip. He will hear the typical excuses thats it been a dry summer etc etc and he will not know any better.

BHB

[Gateholio]

Looking at it from the outfitters perspective, why would he take a resident to an area that has rams for a couple of thousand bucks. You find out where the rams are and then you go back the following year and hunt without the guide. Or even worse the resident tells his buddies where to hunt, then even more of the rams are killed. I dont see this as a benifit for the outfitter for a few thousand dollars.

How do you know the outfitter is not just taking you into an area that is devoid of sheep or ewe and lamb grounds or bands of rams that they have already killed the legal rams out of. I have heard of outfitters doing this to full paying clients becuase they have overbooked and already filled their quota on sheep. A hunter comes into camp expecting to get a ram and he gets a 20,000 dollar sight seeing trip. He will hear the typical excuses thats it been a dry summer etc etc and he will not know any better.

BHB

Just speculating on these topics, but I guess that is where the trophy fee aspect comes in. It woudl be in the outfitters best interests if you took a ram, as you woudl pay an extra fee.

As for "coming back the next year" ..I think that a person that is hiring an outfitter may not have the necessary means to do it alone. By this I mean that they don't own horses, basically...8-)

Lots of areas outfitters acess with horses that would take a hunter days to travel on foot, even if they were to fly in to a nearby lake.

I guess the outfitter takes a calculated risk.

[Maxx]

David,

I am curious, why do you want to utilize the services of a guide outfitter for your Stone's sheep hunt when you are a resident and could do it yourself? Obviously you have the $$ resources to equip yourself and prepare for a great do it yourself hunt!

Is it rewarding for you to get a ram that another person has found for you? Is the reason because you want to avoid the possibility that you may not be able to find yourself a Stone's ram on your own with a partner, and by hiring an outfitter, you will meet your objective by pulling the trigger on a ram sooner than later?

Even if I could afford an outfitter, I personally would not want to. Don't get me wrong, I would hire an outfit in the NWT or Yukon in order to get a Dall's ram if I could afford it, only because it is required by law.

I am keen to see what happens when residents like yourself start utlizing outfitters for their sheep hunts. What kind of impact will it have on resident sheep hunters who cannot afford to hire an outfitter? Is there an underlying motive on the GO behalf to increase resident success and the 'value' of sheep hunts? Do the outfitters start demanding the government for LEH because they say they're guiding X number of paying residents which will obviously increase the success rates for X number of rams in their guide concession?

To each his own. I am sure you will enjoy a great hunt with Larry and crew and a congrats goes to them should you shoot a ram!

BC Rams,

I find it interesting that you question how rewarding it is " to get a ram that another person has found for you"? Are you insinuating that David will not be "hunting" on this trip? That a ram will be found for him before hand?

If you were to travel to the NWT or Yukon to Hunt for Dall sheep, would you find this ram any less rewarding because you were "guided"? If so, why go?

As for your conspiracy theory on the GO's doing this to force the sheep to go LEH , give me a break. They are trying to make money, like any other business. With the downturn of the US dollar, I would think they are trying all they can to bring in more clients. Obviously not all GO' s are doing this, but it seems more every year,

I have encountered both scenarios that you have listed, I have taken a Stone with a GO in BC, as well I have hunted in the NWT for Dall sheep and Caribou. Lets be clear, it is HUNTING, even when accompanied by a GO. Like a packer, the GO is supplying access to an area, but above a packer they have the experience to know where the animals congregate. ( and I am sure that a packer has never "shown" the hunter where to go, that would never happen)


Good on Dave for planning this trip, I am sure that he has his reasons for doing it his way, whether they be family, work, time constraints etc,

[Ronne]

I don't think it has been mentioned but I would add a spare pair of boot laces to the gear list. You never know when you're gonna break one. They take up little space and weigh next to nothing. Could make or break a long hike out of the mountains.

[BCrams]

Maxx -

Good perspective from another angle. I wouldn't know as I have never been on a guided hunt and as I mentioned in the post - it was a question asking just that. Is it as rewarding as doing a do it yourself hunt? I wouldn't know and thats why I asked for his opinion. Obviously there will be others like him who can answer it as well. I have always asked myself if I were able to afford a guide in the NWT for a dall, whether it would be the 'same' feeling of accomplishment as if I did it myself or is it a different kind of enjoyment you can get out of a hunt?

I know and understand outfitters need to make money like any other business and offering guided resident hunts is definatly one way of going about it.

As for conspiracy theories, I am just thinking outside the box with what if scenarios before they may or may not happen. It is no secret GO have wanted the LEH hunt for residents for quite some time and still do. I am simply curious to see what happens when GO help increase resident success rates to a point that the AAH is being achieved.

Once again, I am not disputing the fact it is 'hunting'. If you look again, you will see I am asking if its the same as a successful do it yourself hunt. Perhaps for some individuals it is, and for others the difference is like comparing apples and oranges despite 'hunting' .

I have often wondered about what it would be like to be guided. Using a NWT dall hunt for example, I think I would really enjoy experiencing the mountains and the hunting and having a successful hunt. Do I personally think it would be more rewarding than a successful do it yourself hunt? Right now, I personally don't think so.

I would like to hear from those who have done successful do it yourself sheep hunts as residents and also have done a guided hunt like in the NWT or Yukon as they would fully understand the comparisons better. I would imagine both are rewarding .. but on a different level.

I agree - good on Dave for planning the hunt. But his one post earlier (see below) does leave me with the impression he doesn't want to be bothered with the planning, effort and just wants to get that Stone's ram.

"Do you want to walk around for 10 days and lose 20 pounds or do you want to get a ram?"

Max, have you done a successful 'do it yourself' Stone's sheep hunt? If so, then you can probably shed light between the do it yourself vs guided.

[Gateholio]

I can't speak about sheep- as I have had my crosshairs on a couple, missed one, but never got one- And never hired an outfitter for sheep....

But I've done a trip with an outfitter, several years ago, and they also had an American hunter along for the trip, we all ended up hunting together. It was great, I had a great time. Learned more about horses, saw great country, picked up some great hunting tips. It was very rewarding, especially when I shot a nice mule deer and loaded it onto a horse!8-)

I've also hired fishing guides on Vancouver Island and the QCI's. Had ablast, and it was rewarding, for the same reasons- Went to a great area, picked up some good fishing tips, and used thier boats, caught fish.

Just as rewarding as when I go fishing myself, if not more so, since I didn't have to clean the boat afterwards:lol:

I've done all sorts of mechanical things to vehicles, up to rebuilding engines. But now I have more money and less time, so when I want an oil change and servicing, I drop it off at the garage and have them do it. It's no less rewarding.:lol:

[Maxx]

BCRAMS,

"Once again, I am not disputing the fact it is 'hunting'. If you look again, you will see I am asking if its the same as a successful do it yourself hunt. Perhaps for some individuals it is, and for others the difference is like comparing apples and oranges despite 'hunting' . "

I did look again, and this is what you said,

"Is it rewarding for you to get a ram that another person has found for you? Is the reason because you want to avoid the possibility that you may not be able to find yourself a Stone's ram on your own with a partner, and by hiring an outfitter, you will meet your objective by pulling the trigger on a ram sooner than later?"


By this statement, you are insinuating that a ram has been "found" ( sooner or later), not questioning how rewarding it is solo Vs with an outfitter. You seem to think that all people who go with outfitters get their sheep. There is no magic to it, you have to HUNT,

As for my hunt in the NWT, it was one of the most rewarding of my life. The country, wild animals and people were all wonderful, I would do it again in a heartbeat. FYI, not that it matters, I spotted all the animals I killed before the "guide", if it was reverse, who cares. My guide was a 60 year old man, who had guided and trapped for 30 years in BC, Alberta, and Montana- I learned alot from him. You should try the NWT someday,

I have hunted stones in BC solo, but never taken one. Someday I will, and can i see it being more rewarding?I do not think so. I hunted for my 1st Stone, and took him after a good hunt, and stalk. I had my reasons for going with this GO, I am sure that Dave has his,

"I agree - good on Dave for planning the hunt. But his one post earlier (see below) does leave me with the impression he doesn't want to be bothered with the planning, effort and just wants to get that Stone's ram."

So what, that is his choice. You seem to be insinuating that people like Dave, are going to tip the scales for the governement going to an LEH system.

So, if it is about being less "rewarding", should we look down on the Caputo's, Klineburgers, Kleins, Gates' of the world because they used outfitters ( even in their home States)

Good on Dave, Hope he has a good hunt.

[David Heitsman]

To me it's just economics.

I live in a city. I do not want to make payments on a new truck,or on a new jet boat. I also don't want to buy 2 - 4 horses and tack and feed them all year. All of this is available to me by hiring an outfitter.

I also have a hard time adding the 4 days round trip travel to FSJ or FN when I have to drive. The outfitter leaves me a car at the airport or has a plane waiting there for me.

It's also about my families comfort, (not to mention my own!). I have solo back pack hunted for a couple weeks at a time and it concerned my wife
not to hear from me for long time. (Now I utilize a sat-phone so safety contact can be made.) Knowing that there is someone with me always
helps me get the go ahead if you know what I mean.

As to the hunting itself, the odds on a sheep hunt for success as in harvest are well stacked against you. I have hunted 'outfitted' for sheep
before and have yet to take one. It is easier using a cabin and horses to cover the ground, no question about it. I have also got in on sheep on my own solo, utilizing a jet service (Riverjet) or backpacking solo up the Racine/ Yash and still didn't find a legal sheep. That's what keeps me going back!

My guided experience have shown that mostly what they (guides) do is supply company for me and help to get the camp or horses ready. An extra set of glasses is great but by large the main place they help is with the work after the kill. Believe me the pay they get is negligible compared to the hours worked and what is available in the oil patch nearby.

No I don't think there is a GO plot or anything but the fences are coming down between "us" and "them". As to going back to an area that an outfitter has shown you... wouldn't that be a dis-honorable thing to do?

[BCrams]

Dave -

Thanks for the filler. I can understand / relate to what you are saying.

Next time you're itching to go on a solo or do it yourself trip - drop me a pm. I still have not been on a sheep hunt or trip up north without having a shooting opportunity at legal rams and will give some insight.

The Yash / Racing rams are a little different and takes a different tactic to glass for them and its not hard to find legals once you know what they're doing.

You can always get your hunting partner to do the driving and pick you up in Ft Nelson / Watson Lake !!

Enjoy your sheep hunt with the Tuchodi outfit.

[bighornbob]

As to going back to an area that an outfitter has shown you... wouldn't that be a dis-honorable thing to do?

David, when we are talking about 25,000US (what a sheep hunt runs) a lot of people will see it differently. As a member of the WSSOBC, I am sure you have heard stories about outfitters laying booms across lakes or barrels across runway strips or buzzing sheep out of valleys when they know residents are in there. Why are they doing this, to keep residents out so they can take their clients out and get their rams becuase the more successful they are the more hunts they sell, basic economics. Is it not dis-honerable for them to do that?

[quote=David Heitsman] I have hunted 'outfitted' for sheep
before and have yet to take one.quote] Ever think you are getting the 5000 dollar sight seeing trip? Dont think it doesn't happen. A very reputable outfitter (always mentioned in Grand Slam and Fnaws as a stand up guy who would give you the shirt off your back) books an extra client above his quota quite often. That client gets the sight seeing tour as the outfitters tags are all filled and kills no ram. So since the outfitter is such a stand up guy he promises the guy if he comes back next year (another 25,000US) he guarentees the hunter a ram or his hunt is free. Well the next year the hunter comes back gets his ram and another hunter is probably given the 25,000 sight seeing tour.

BHB

[shortroot]

Clarke,

How was your hunt for Mule Deer? Did you go with an outfitter out of Tatlayoko?

I see a comment by Clarke Gatehouse on his website:), this wouldn't be you would it?

If so, his son is one of my good friends, maybe he guided you.

Some good fishing in some of those mountain lakes.

[brno375]

David

Have you ever asked what the price difference would be between being packed and being guided?

I know where you are coming from about owning horses down here in the city.

[Gateholio]

Clarke,

How was your hunt for Mule Deer? Did you go with an outfitter out of Tatlayoko?

I see a comment by Clarke Gatehouse on his website:), this wouldn't be you would it?

If so, his son is one of my good friends, maybe he guided you.

Some good fishing in some of those mountain lakes.

Yes, thats the one. I had a blast and even went back the next year, which was an even better trip, although I didn't shoot anything that year. And yes his son was there. Funny guy, we had a good time.:lol: