Accused poacher says trial affecting his guide-outfitter business

[East Van Ray]

http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/alleged-poacher-says-trial-affecting-guide-outfitter-business/

Abe Dougan posing with the sheep he claims he killed in northwestern B.C. The Crown contends the sheep was actually shot across the border, in Yukon. This photo appeared in the Big Game Records of B.C. record book.
A Kamloops man facing cross-border poaching allegations relating to a record-setting Dall sheep he killed in 1999 said his ongoing trial is having a negative impact on the bottom line for his guide-outfitter business.

Abe Dougan’s trial on a dozen poaching charges has been ongoing sporadically in Kamloops provincial court for more than a year.

He was charged after an elaborate investigation by Yukon wildlife authorities in which three-dimensional mapping software was used to locate a specific mountain range in the territory where the Dall sheep was allegedly harvested — a location Dougan claimed was in B.C.

In court on Monday, March 9, Dougan said the drawn-out trial has caused his company — Big Boar Outfitters, which specializes in bear hunts — to take a hit in the pocketbook, noting bear-hunt numbers for 2015 are down a significant amount.

Federal Crown prosecutor Lesley Ann Kilgore asked Dougan if there could be another explanation for the drop in business.

“It’s possible that there are other factors, but it’s clear to me after doing substantial research that this trial is the main effect,” Dougan replied.

Kilgore then entered as evidence a Vancouver Sun story from 2013 about the controversy surrounding NHL defenceman Clayton Stoner killing a grizzly bear in a part of B.C. where First Nations had declared trophy hunting off-limits.

Dougan was quoted in the article, describing the healthy bear population in the upper Pitt region.

In court, Dougan said he was told the conversation he had with a Sun reporter was off the record and he was surprised to see his name in print.

Kilgore entered another story, from the Vancouver Observer, about the “decimation” of the Pitt’s bear population. The article, published two months ago, contains a photo of Dougan posing with a dead black bear.

Kilgore was attempting to establish other factors that could have played a role in Dougan’s business taking a hit.

Defence lawyer Kevin Church is trying to have Dougan’s charges thrown out due to delay, pointing to the financial impacts as an aggravating factor.

During a hearing last month, Church accused B.C. conservation officials of making it “their life’s work” to tarnish Dougan’s name.

He said the Dall sheep charges are not serious enough to warrant the amount of court time they have garnered, especially when compared to serious criminal matters like sexual assault, murder and child-pornography offences that might be delayed due to a lack of court time.

Dougan claims to have killed the Dall sheep in a remote part of northwestern B.C., where he had been entitled to do so in August 1999.

The trophy earned a spot in the Big Game Records of B.C. record book — where a photo of Dougan posing with the sheep was published alongside a brief first-person account of the hunt, in which Dougan described tracking the animal through a mountain range in northwest B.C.

In 2011, Environment Yukon received a confidential tip that the photo of Dougan was actually taken in the Yukon, where he was not permitted to hunt.

Using three-dimensional mapping software, an investigator located a Yukon mountain with similar characteristics to the mountain in the background of Dougan’s photo.

In the summer of 2011, investigators flew by helicopter to the site they claim Dougan bagged the sheep — 18 kilometres north of the Yukon/B.C. border.

They took a photo of the mountain range from what they felt was the exact location Dougan’s hunting partner was standing when the trophy photo was taken, court heard.

The two pictures bear striking similarities, including a series of slides in the background and a distinct plateau on a mountain over Dougan’s left shoulder.

Earlier this year, Dougan was charged with three new offences stemming from an unrelated cougar hunt near Williams Lake more than a year ago.

Dougan, along with Brent Giles and Ryan Hartling, is facing one count each of hunting wildlife within six hours of being airborne, unlawful possession of dead wildlife and failing to accompany a person guided.
Last summer, Dougan was convicted in a Yukon court on charges alleging he wasted meat from sheep, caribou and moose killed in 2011 and hunted too soon after being airborne. In that instance, Dougan was a guide leading a Wyoming hunter on a hunt for stone sheep.

The American hunter was fined $11,500 and barred from hunting in the Yukon for 10 years.

Dougan was ordered to pay $15,000 in fines and banned from hunting or guiding in the Yukon for 20 years.

Big Boar Outfitters, previously online at bigboaroutfitters.com, has apparently taken down its website.

Dougan’s trial continued on Tuesday, March 10.

Dougan is slated to make his first appearance in Williams Lake provincial court on the cougar charges the following day.

[Paulyman]

"Other factors" anyone care to take a stab at that?

[Vladimir Poutine]

I particularly note his comment about rapists and murderers. So in his eyes any other offense shouldn't be prosecuted because it doesn't meet the smell test of rape and murder? COs are COs and city police are city police. They charge individuals with offenses no matter what the offense is.

[monasheemountainman]

another credible G.O and these are the types of people our government chooses to support, rather than its own (the majority) resident hunter.

[Big Lew]

Well, as the adage goes; "where there's smoke there's fire"
It seems that there are quite a few incidents related to the G.O. over
a period of time...not just the sheep problem.

[Sofa King]

well, he claims he wasn't in the Yukon, even though the picture taken from the locale that they think he was at is virtually identical to his photo.
why doesn't he take them to the exact spot he "claims" he killed the sheep and then let's see what that pic will look like.

pretty sad that a guide views illegal hunting and wasting of meat as nothing serious, and that it doesn't warrant special interest.
not very nice to see that type of attitude toward our wildlife.
pretty much reinforces the view that they see wildlife as $$.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hmmmm.....I wonder if being convicted in the Yukon had anything to do with his down turn in business?

On on a more positive note, it might be a good time to unload his territory.

Sounds like pleading guilty may have been his cheapest option.

Just a a word of caution.....careful what you say as Mr Church likes to SLAPP people

[dakoda62]

I did a bit of research saw the pics, identical. should be an open and shut case.

[r106]

well, he claims he wasn't in the Yukon, even though the picture taken from the locale that they think he was at is virtually identical to his photo.
why doesn't he take them to the exact spot he "claims" he killed the sheep and then let's see what that pic will look like.

pretty sad that a guide views illegal hunting and wasting of meat as nothing serious, and that it doesn't warrant special interest.
not very nice to see that type of attitude toward our wildlife.
pretty much reinforces the view that they see wildlife as $$.

That would only cost a couple grand wich is penuts to what the lawyer fees would be to go to court. If he was inocent you think he would have offered to take a CO to the location. Unless he hasn't found a location in bc that matches the pic. Lol

[Mudzbogger]

So let me get this straight, He's facing charges in BC of which Mr. Church is Litigating at the moment right? But he was also charged and convicted hence the fines and bans in in the Yukon? Where is the american dude in this fight?

[j270wsm]

The American hunter was already charged $11,500 and banned from hunting in the Yukon for 10yrs

[Mudzbogger]

The American hunter was already charged $11,500 and banned from hunting in the Yukon for 10yrs

But have they both been charged and convicted in the Yukon is my primary question I guess meaning Mr. Church is not litigating any action on those?

[Mudzbogger]

Nevermind, I looked up the info in the Yukon and apparently according to the Whitehorse Star Newspaper both Dougan and the American plead guilty to their charges so he is in fact already a convicted poacher. I guess some of Deaddogs comments on him earlier were in fact correct.

[j270wsm]

Yes, they were both charged in the Yukon and banned from hunting or guiding.

Abe going to trial on charges stemming from a different sheep hunt.

[Doostien]

I hate people like him not because hes a poacher, though I do hate that, but because he tries to weasel out of it by saying "There are more serious crimes that the court should be dealing with".

Like seriously? What a pathetic excuse.

[Surrey Boy]

another credible G.O and these are the types of people our government chooses to support, rather than its own (the majority) resident hunter.

Crooks like their own kind.

[northernhunter]

The other question to is that #2 bc book sheep going to be removed from our record books.

[goatdancer]

So allegedly poaching a Dall sheep is no big deal?

[Daybreak]

I hate people like him not because hes a poacher, though I do hate that, but because he tries to weasel out of it by saying "There are more serious crimes that the court should be dealing with".

Like seriously? What a pathetic excuse.

Don't get me wrong here as I am in no way defending Abe Dougan.

However,it is his defence lawyer, Mr. Kevin Church, who is voicing these excuses and making the comparisons to murder etc. I wonder how these lawyers live with themselves when they defend the previously convicted and those allegedly guilty of further related offences.

[Huevos]

I read about this a while back. He was basically under investigation from an anonymous tip. Who would have done that? I am guessing someone that was with him or had firsthand knowledge of what really went on and for some reason had a falling out? I thought that there was a good lesson here. Keep your nose clean, because you never know if your hunting buddy will be your buddy forever.
Obviously if you are being investigated or convicted for 3 separate incidents, it says something of your character. I get that he is a G.O., and everyone here hates G.O.'s right now, but this incident allegedly occurred as a resident hunter, was he even a G.O. 16 years ago? I don't know.

[gerrygoat]

I read about this a while back. He was basically under investigation from an anonymous tip. Who would have done that? I am guessing someone that was with him or had firsthand knowledge of what really went on and for some reason had a falling out? I thought that there was a good lesson here. Keep your nose clean, because you never know if your hunting buddy will be your buddy forever.
Obviously if you are being investigated or convicted for 3 separate incidents, it says something of your character. I get that he is a G.O., and everyone here hates G.O.'s right now, but this incident allegedly occurred as a resident hunter, was he even a G.O. 16 years ago? I don't know.

Good thoughts.......

In general when it comes to these types of things I don't understand how someone can illegally shoot an animal and mount it on the wall. Every day that thing would be screaming out that they are a poacher. I guess those kinds of people don't have a conscience.

[.264winmag]

Wow, he actually said that in court! He must think everyone is mentally handicapped...

[.264winmag]

Bet he wishes he could whip out a status card!

[GoatGuy]

Be very, very careful making comments folks.

[EvanG]

http://www.wildliferecordsofbc.com/Entry%20Requirements%20-%20July%202013%20version%20-%20Final.pdf


Check out #13. I think we should all be write the bc records club and demand that all his entries be removed.

[southsider]

he sold his guiding area last December.....

[.264winmag]

Be very, very careful making comments folks.
Yeah they're sinking themselves anyway...

[Sofa King]

http://www.wildliferecordsofbc.com/Entry%20Requirements%20-%20July%202013%20version%20-%20Final.pdf


Check out #13. I think we should all be write the bc records club and demand that all his entries be removed.

this.
there are cases of record book animals being removed for crimes completely unrelated to hunting.
when the actual animal was harvested illegally, it better damn well be removed.

[Sofa King]

I thought I remembered someone seeing his pic, and that he was stating it was his BC hunt, but they recognized that exact spot because they had gotten a sheep there before.
not sure if that was what maybe started it all.

[358mag]

The other question to is that #2 bc book sheep going to be removed from our record books.
what about # 51 in the BC book ?

[ruger#1]

Boo Hoo, He broke the law. Throw him in jail with the other scabs.

[ducktoller]

I'll bite. I sympathize with him purely on the presumption of innocence.
If he is guilty then fine, but I think confidentiality in court proceedings is undervalued.

[ruger#1]

Abe Dougan’s trial on a dozen poaching charges has been ongoing sporadically in Kamloops provincial court for more than a year.

I suppose you are right. He seams like an honest citizen.

[.264winmag]

I'll bite. I sympathize with him purely on the presumption of innocence.
If he is guilty then fine, but I think confidentiality in court proceedings is undervalued.
Point taken. However, I know where I would have my money if I were a betting man... With no previous charges I would feel much different. Again this is all purely opinion. I have no facts, I'm sure he's a honest, hard working guide that is maybe just unluckily in the wrong place at the wrong time several times.

[Sofa King]

Point taken. However, I know where I would have my money if I were a betting man... With no previous charges I would feel much different. Again this is all purely opinion. I have no facts, I'm sure he's a honest, hard working guide that is maybe just unluckily in the wrong place at the wrong time several times.

haha.
dang wrong places/wrong times.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Bad news for hunters in general, there does seem to be trend to his behavior. Throw him to the wolves!

[Sofa King]

so, is there any truth to how they say that the CO's can determine what area your animal is from by dna-testing a sample of meat?
i've heard of this, that they could test your deer and know if it was killed in region 3 or region 8.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

so, is there any truth to how they say that the CO's can determine what area your animal is from by dna-testing a sample of meat?
i've heard of this, that they could test your deer and know if it was killed in region 3 or region 8.

A few years back I turned in a group of hunters that had packed in with horses and on opening day shot 2 bucks, a two point and a spike. They only recovered the 2 point. the area they did this was 4 point only. the CO went in to the kill site and took a DNA sample from the kill sight to convict the hunters.

I doubt they could DNA for regions though.

[.264winmag]

A few years back I turned in a group of hunters that had packed in with horses and on opening day shot 2 bucks, a two point and a spike. They only recovered the 2 point. the area they did this was 4 point only. the CO went in to the kill site and took a DNA sample from the kill sight to convict the hunters.

I doubt they could DNA for regions though.

Seems like a lot of work and $ that could have been used to bust a child porn ring...

[Sofa King]

Seems like a lot of work and $ that could have been used to bust a child porn ring...

agree.

it didn't sound realistic either.
supposedly they could tell what it was feeding on and from that determine it's range.
but no way between something like region 3 and 8.
now between say, bc versus Saskatchewan, that I could see.

[Mudzbogger]

Seems like a lot of work and $ that could have been used to bust a child porn ring...

Yes lots of dollars, but then again every crime committed should be pursued, otherwise people would just keep doing them.

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by chilcotin hillbilly http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1616652#post1616652) A few years back I turned in a group of hunters that had packed in with horses and on opening day shot 2 bucks, a two point and a spike. They only recovered the 2 point. the area they did this was 4 point only. the CO went in to the kill site and took a DNA sample from the kill sight to convict the hunters.

I doubt they could DNA for regions though.

They can and they do ....

[Sofa King]

Yes lots of dollars, but then again every crime committed should be pursued, otherwise people would just keep doing them.

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by chilcotin hillbilly http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1616652#post1616652) A few years back I turned in a group of hunters that had packed in with horses and on opening day shot 2 bucks, a two point and a spike. They only recovered the 2 point. the area they did this was 4 point only. the CO went in to the kill site and took a DNA sample from the kill sight to convict the hunters.

I doubt they could DNA for regions though.

They can and they do ....

how's it work?
how could they determine a deer came from region 3 and not 8?

[Mudzbogger]

how's it work?
how could they determine a deer came from region 3 and not 8?

It's tough to draw black and white lines like you are asking given Region 3 and 8 borders etc. They can most certainly tell the difference in the DNA markers of a deer in Region 5 vs one taken in Region 8. It's not easy no but it can be done if the need presents itself.

[.264winmag]

Haha I was just making it sound as ridiculous as it must have in court. They are grasping at straws, of course there will always be higher profile cases, doesn't make others insignificant...

[tangozulu]

Pretty sure Yukon hunters think this trial is important. If the trial is taking so long just who is making it so. Ive seen the pictures. You will know the verdict if you look for yourself.

[ACE]

Well, as the adage goes; "where there's smoke there's fire"
It seems that there are quite a few incidents related to the G.O. over
a period of time...not just the sheep problem.

Another 'steward of the land' .......

[ruger#1]

Seems like a lot of work and $ that could have been used to bust a child porn ring... Wow. I didn't know the COs did that kind of work.

[vislander]

And it's affected his business,maybe allocate him some more game to help him out?:shock:

[bigdogeh]

And it's affected his business,maybe allocate him some more game to help him out?:shock:
that's the liberal way... that'll fix it. gotta help out your buddies...

[M.Dean]

http://www.wildliferecordsofbc.com/Entry%20Requirements%20-%20July%202013%20version%20-%20Final.pdf


Check out #13. I think we should all be write the bc records club and demand that all his entries be removed. Abe was always very polite and great to talk too when ever I met him, and being's I live here in Canada, and so does Abe, where your presumed innocent until proven guilty, Think I'll wait until after the court case is over before I even make a comment concerning this case. Some words are like bullets leaving the barrel of a gun, ain't no way to bring em back once you've pulled that trigger.

[Sofa King]

Wow. I didn't know the COs did that kind of work.

deer porn? bear porn?
it's all making sense now.

[.264winmag]

Abe was always very polite and great to talk too when ever I met him, and being's I live here in Canada, and so does Abe, where your presumed innocent until proven guilty, Think I'll wait until after the court case is over before I even make a comment concerning this case. Some words are like bullets leaving the barrel of a gun, ain't no way to bring em back once you've pulled that trigger.
Many good people make poor decisions at times, myself included. The fact that there seems to be a trend in the decisions being made while hunting is what's in question. He is absolutely innocent until proven guilty on the current case, the other charges and fines paid on previous case(s) tend to speak for themselves. Personally he could be a great guy, his personality is not on trial even if questioned. I've heard mixed reviews on the personality of the likes of Jim Shockey, but like a professional he is not being charged with poaching.

[rgn5hunt]

Many good people make poor decisions at times, myself included. The fact that there seems to be a trend in the decisions being made while hunting is what's in question. He is absolutely innocent until proven guilty on the current case, the other charges and fines paid on previous case(s) tend to speak for themselves. Personally he could be a great guy, his personality is not on trial even if questioned. I've heard mixed reviews on the personality of the likes of Jim Shockey, but like a professional he is not being charged with poaching.

Guilty or innocent, at this point in time in B.C. this guy is a huge asset to control predators. He keeps the calf and fawn eaters in check!

[troutseeker]

Be very, very careful making comments folks.Why? This is a public forum, but to track each and every one of us would require a production order for our IP records form the site administrator, then do the leg work to figure out our internet provider and obtain a production order for our subscriber information. That will identify the physical location our computer may be at, but that still does not put us behind the keyboard... And if we have an open WIFI connection, well it could be anyone in the neighbourhood or that parks in front of our house that posted the comment, lol. I doubt very much one would be successful in pursuing a defamation of character suit. Especially when the character in question allegedly did such a good job on his own.

[Cyrus]

if the court does dismiss this case it just sends the message that poachers have no real consequences...The fact that he is a guide probably isn't winning him any resident hunter friends either...

[donny.brooke]

How is a guy convicted of poaching in the yukon allowed to have a hunting licence in b.c. ???

[j270wsm]

The guy is guilty and everyone knows it. Pretty hard to deny that when his pics show a mountain known to be in the Yukon. I'm glad the trial his hurting his business. G/O's should be allowed to own a guiding business if convicted of a wild life offence. Abe is a worth less poacher so who cares if someone takes offence to everyones comments about him, he's already pled guilty/found guilty and been charged in the Yukon.

[.264winmag]

How is a guy convicted of poaching in the yukon allowed to have a hunting licence in b.c. ???
Isn't that the true question eh!

[adriaticum]

This poacher should look for some government subsidy. Other criminals get government subsidies too.

[.264winmag]

What's going on with the case? Last I heard his lawyer was accusing the COs of picking on him and wasting far too much court time on the case? Also read there were more charges laid on another 'unrelated' cougar hunt. I think the COs are just doing their job, and the bread crumb trail is wide...

[Steve W]

How is a guy convicted of poaching in the yukon allowed to have a hunting licence in b.c. ???

This may be of Interest and worth pursuing. The USA has a Wildlife Violator Compact. Basically and agreement between states that prevents someone convicted and have had their hunting privileges suspended or revoked from hunting obtaining licenses in another member state. There are 44 member states right now. People who are suspended by the compact can still hunt abroad though. There was talk of getting Canadian jurisdictions involved in the compact, but I lost touch with the project a few years back and don't know where its at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Wildlife_Violator_Compact#Member_States

[4 point]

Apparently the Supreme Court Judge will render her verdict on this case October 9, 2015 in Kamloops. Be interesting to see how it goes!

[wideopenthrottle]

maybe he got that date so he could still make the opening day of wt doe s after the charges get dropped....<sarcasm>

[Xenomorph]

All I can say is that IF this proves to be true, then I commend our COs and the Crown Prosecutors for doing all the work to bring justice to light.

I don't think people watch Spiderman enough "With great power, comes great responsibility" ...to be a GO should be tougher, more expensive and make sure that people that get into this are not in it for a quick buck, but for a mindful, respectful, lawful co-managements (thinking of us, the resident hunters) of our resources.

That being said, I think any and every poach act should be severely punished, no slaps on the wrists

[howa1500]

Good job by the crown and Co's to go after someone who clearly has issues with following the laws and rules of our great land.

[4 point]

Here is the link to the decision. Guilty he was found.
First case October 9, 2015 R v. Dougan

http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments.php?link=http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/

[Ramshot]

Not according to Kamloops this week.
http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poaching-charges-dropped-due-to-delay-in-trial/

[Ricky Bobby]

http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poaching-charges-dropped-due-to-delay-in-trial/ (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poaching-charges-dropped-due-to-delay-in-trial/)

[dakoda62]

As far as i am concerned if he is found guilty he should lose his tenure on the lease. No challenges, done deal. And barred for a minimum 10 years from hunting.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not according to Kamloops this week.
http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/poaching-charges-dropped-due-to-delay-in-trial/

That was his only way to win.
Such a travesty.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Or was it a win? Court records show he was guilty of shooting a ram in the Yukon but no punishment? I'm confused.

[TARCHER]

This delay, thrown out crap clearly has to end. It is happening too often.

[Xenomorph]

This delay, thrown out crap clearly has to end. It is happening too often.

That or make sure that if the trial gets thrown out because of the defendants delay strategy ...I'd say make sure he gets tagged with the Crown's expenses for the trial. That in itself should suffice for a punishment if such people keep thinking getting out of the guilty verdict is worth it.

Not sure if it makes sense, but for me it does, the Courts need to make up the money somehow to make sure the due process is properly funded.

[.264winmag]

So ram was harvested in 99', evidence brought forward 13 years later but trial is 'timed' out after 3? BS

[Walking Buffalo]

Or was it a win? Court records show he was guilty of shooting a ram in the Yukon but no punishment? I'm confused.


I'm confused too.

Quotes from The reason for judgement states that the Crown DID satisfy the time limitation requirement. It is too long to post in its entirety here.


------------------------

http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments.php?link=http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/


The reason for judgement.
Citation: R v. Dougan Date: 20151009
2015 BCPC 0280 File No: 94069-1
Registry: Kamloops


IN THE PROVINCIAL COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA






REGINA


v.


ABRAHAM JOHN NORMAN DOUGAN





REASONS FOR JUDGMENT
OF THE
HONOURABLE JUDGE S.D. FRAME




Counsel for the Crown: Ms. Lesley Ann Kilgore and Mr. Simon Charles
Appearing for the Accused: Mr. Kevin Church
Place of Hearing: Kamloops, B.C.
Dates of Hearing: Dec 3 and 4, 2013;
July 21-25 and Dec 8-11, 2014
Date of Judgment: October 9, 2015


[1] The Crown alleges under several counts under Yukon, British Columbia and federal legislation that Mr. Dougan shot a Dall sheep in Yukon contrary to the Wildlife, Animal and Plant Protection and Regulation of International and Interprovincial Trade Act; Yukon Wildlife Act; Yukon Wildlife Act Regulations; and the British Columbia Wildlife Act. The offences are alleged to have occurred in a single incident between August 17, 1999 and August 24, 1999. At the conclusion of the trial, the Crown proceeded on only Counts 1, 5, 11 and 12 after some discussion about the Keinapple principle.

[2] Mr. Dougan was licenced to shoot Dall sheep in northern British Columbia and he claims that is precisely what occurred. He specifically rejects any defence of due diligence. This is a case about whether Mr. Dougan knowingly shot his sheep in Yukon or legitimately shot it in northern British Columbia.



Limitation Act (http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/laws/stat/sbc-2012-c-13/latest/sbc-2012-c-13.html)
[3] The first issue before me is with respect to the Ministerial Certificate limitations.

[4] Each piece of legislation has its own limitation and commencement factors. The issue before me, though, has more to do with the year and circumstances in which the investigators became aware of the alleged offence rather than whether each jurisdiction complied with the requirements of the certificates.

[5] The obvious issue is when the respective authorities became aware of the offence. The Defence argued that the various Ministers have “known” of the offence since Mr. Dougan disclosed to Kurt Kier, who was then a wildlife technician with the British Columbia Wildlife Branch, in 1999 that he had shot the Dall sheep. Mr. Dougan was required to report the shooting of the sheep. He disclosed to Mr. Kier that it was shot near the Takhini River in the appropriate ministerial unit, being Region 6, Unit 28 (the Dougan site).

[6] At the time of the inspection, Mr. Kier noted this location on the inspection certificate at the time of the inspection. Mr. Kier then passed on this information to a conservation officer. In doing so, he expressed no concerns about the legitimacy of the location of the shooting.

[7] In addition, a photograph was sent into the publishers of the Big Game Records Book. The book is published by the Trophy Wildlife Records Club of British Columbia, which is recognized in British Columbia as the record keepers for big game records. That photograph was sent with a story apparently written by Mr. Dougan regarding the hunt. The reproduction of the photograph sent in is not particularly clear and cuts off the top edge of the mountain range behind Mr. Dougan and the sheep. The shooting of the sheep was of note because it was the second largest on record. The book was published in 2003, containing entries received up to September 15, 2002. The publisher was Dick Morriss, who is now deceased. Therefore, since 2002, records pertaining to the shooting of the sheep including its size and the location of its kill have been in the public domain.

[8] Michael Ritcey had a contract with the Government of British Columbia, Ministry of Environment to deal with problem wildlife. In that capacity, he knew Kevin Van Damme, a conservation officer. Shortly after Mr. Dougan shot his sheep, Mr. Van Damme asked Mr. Ritcey where Mr. Dougan shot the sheep. Mr. Ritcey said he did not know. Mr. Ritcey felt that Mr. Van Damme was quite persistent that Mr. Dougan would have told Mr. Ritcey where he shot the sheep. Mr. Ritcey’s impression was that Mr. Van Damme wanted to “get to the bottom of it”. It was not his impression that Mr. Van Damme wanted to go sheep hunting, but was investigating where Mr. Dougan had shot his sheep.

[9] Mr. Dougan argued that it was this conversation in 1999 or 2000 which was the real genesis of the Crown’s knowledge and commencement of the investigation. This, the Defence argued, is when the limitation began.

[10] Mr. Ritcey considers himself a friend of Mr. Van Damme and admires what he does on a professional basis. Their conversations are usually about dogs. On one occasion Mr. Van Damme asked Mr. Ritcey about a friend of his who had shot cougars. This was a friendly conversation. He also conceded that he has had conversations with Mr. Van Damme about problem wildlife, tracking cougars and dealing with dogs, none of which were part of any investigation Mr. Van Damme was conducting. Both Mr. Ritcey and Mr. Van Damme are hunters in their personal lives. Mr. Ritcey expects that he probably did discuss hunting in the past with Mr. Van Damme. He distinguished the nature of these various conversations from the impugned conversation about Mr. Dougan.

[11] Mr. Ritcey is also familiar with Mr. Dougan. They have common acquaintances. He recalled a conversation with Mr. Dougan about shooting a sheep. Mr. Ritcey saw the sheep mounted on the wall. There were a number of trophies on Mr. Dougan’s wall. Mr. Dougan did not share the hunt story with him in any detail. Mr. Ritcey said he does not talk hunting stories and Mr. Dougan does not brag about his animals. He knew from what Mr. Dougan told him that Mr. Dougan went on the hunt with Dan Stacey. They flew into Yukon and hiked into British Columbia, where they shot the ram. He had no other details about the hunting trip.

[12] Mr. Van Damme testified at the trial. He has checked his notebooks and there is no record of any such conversation with Mr. Ritcey. Furthermore, he has no recollection of such a conversation with Mr. Ritcey. He also checked the British Columbia Wildlife database for any “warns” or investigations and found nothing in the database relating to Mr. Dougan and this sheep.

[13] Given that Mr. Ritcey is able to distinguish the nature of conversations he has with Mr. Van Damme, and given that Mr. Ritcey was an entirely credible witness, I find that Mr. Van Damme’s queries amounted to suspicion that may well have led to an investigation, had the conversation been more fruitful. It did not give rise to a suspicion that could found a proper investigation at the lowest threshold. It cannot be said that any meaningful investigation or notice commenced at the time of this conversation.

[14] In April 2011, Yukon conservation officers received a tip from a confidential informer that the sheep depicted in the Big Game Records Book was in fact shot in Yukon (the Suspected Kill Site), not northern British Columbia. Acting on the tip, the investigation ensued which resulted in the charges in the Information sworn September 28, 2012.

[15] I am satisfied that Yukon conservation officers became aware of the potential offence in April 2011 when the tip was received. I am satisfied that whatever discussion Mr. Van Damme had with Mr. Ritcey was not part of an investigation by a British Columbia conservation officer on behalf of Yukon conservation officers in the Province of British Columbia. Nor did it put the British Columbia conservation services on notice that their investigatory limitation period had begun to run.

[16] I reject the Defence argument that because the shooting of the sheep was recorded in the Big Game Records Book, even though it is a recognized authority, it in any way commenced the investigative period or otherwise put any knowledge in the realm of the conservation services in any jurisdiction.

[17] The Defence concedes that if I find the proper commencement date is April 2011, then there is no limitation defence on the ministerial certificates. I find that the Crown has met the limitations in this case for all three jurisdictions.




The Photographs
[26] The Muskwa-Kechika Photograph shows similar foreground features but does not include enough to see whether or not any similar rock formations are there. In the end, however, while I am very uncomfortable with the poor quality of the photographs used for comparison with the Suspected Photograph and with the absence of an investigation of the Dougan Kill Site, it is the central rock feature in the Book Photograph and Suspected Photograph that satisfy me they are taken in the same location. That location is Yukon.






I find that Mr. Dougan shot the Dall sheep in Yukon Territory, and not in British Columbia. He then transported it to British Columbia to the pick-up point.

______________________________
S.D. Frame
Provincial Court Judge

[tuner]

The crown dropped the ball by not proceeding in a timely manner, it has nothing to do with the defence delaying or stalling due process. The judge clearly states as much in her ruling.

[GoatGuy]

Best thing is to find out why it was delayed and come up with opinions afterwards...... not before

[.264winmag]

Best thing is to find out why it was delayed and come up with opinions afterwards...... not before
True, not 'proven' guilty on this trial it seems. Plenty of others that went the other way. You gotta crush on this fellow?

[GoatGuy]

True, not 'proven' guilty on this trial it seems. Plenty of others that went the other way. You gotta crush on this fellow?

Find out why it was delayed, because the most likely culprit here is the government not caring enough about wildlife. It has been an ongoing theme where government does not allocate sufficient resources to enforce or represent the public interest when it comes to fish/wildlife/habitat destruction/poaching.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last case where someone who was charged (or was not charged when they had broken the law) got off without even a fine and the reason for that is government does not consider fish and wildlife issues a priority.

[boxhitch]

Looks clear



[17] The Defence concedes that if I find the proper commencement date is April 2011, then
there is no limitation defence on the ministerial certificates. I find that the Crown has met the limitations in this case for all three jurisdictions.





it is ultimately the photograph of the foreground depicting the identical rock which satisfies me that the Crown has proved this case beyond a reasonable doubt. I

find that Mr. Dougan shot the Dall sheep in Yukon Territory, and not in British Columbia. He then transported it to British Columbia to the pick-up point.


______________________________
S.D. Frame
Provincial Court Judge

[Sleep Robber]

My buddies a great guy too, but he made a bad decision and had 3 beer instead of just 2 after his old timer hockey game. He got stopped, tested and charged with DUI, ended up losing his job over it too.

So,

Here's this Guide dude,.... lots of people say he's a fine gentleman, but he clearly broke the hunting regs and anybody that says different is either a friend backing him up or a fuginkc clown.

Maybe the fact that he's a guide is the "real" reason the courts did what they did. I'd like to bet a regular joe "Resident Hunter" would have been charged and brought to justice.

Just a thought.

[Sleep Robber]

Who gives a rats ass who or what he is, he broke the law and should be found guilty, supporters of this guy need a slap upside the head.

[tuner]

Find out why it was delayed, because the most likely culprit here is the government not caring enough about wildlife. It has been an ongoing theme where government does not allocate sufficient resources to enforce or represent the public interest when it comes to fish/wildlife/habitat destruction/poaching.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last case where someone who was charged (or was not charged when they had broken the law) got off without even a fine and the reason for that is government does not consider fish and wildlife issues a priority.
If you take the judges own words it becomes apparent that wildlife is indeed a low priority. "No Matter how one looks at it,the then shooting of a sheep that is not endangered is not of such complexity or importance that 37 months from charge to decision can be called reasonable" she is chastising the crown for dragging their feet on what should be an open and shut case.

[GoatGuy]

If you take the judges own words it becomes apparent that wildlife is indeed a low priority. "No Matter how one looks at it,the then shooting of a sheep that is not endangered is not of such complexity or importance that 37 months from charge to decision can be called reasonable" she is chastising the crown for dragging their feet on what should be an open and shut case.

You're 'on to it'.

[Drillbit]

[14] In April 2011, Yukon conservation officers received a tip from a confidential informer that the sheep depicted in the Big Game Records Book was in fact shot in Yukon (the Suspected Kill Site), not northern British Columbia. Acting on the tip, the investigation ensued which resulted in the charges in the Information sworn September 28, 2012.


Who was the informant? Van Damme or Ritcey?

I must've missed it somewhere

[boxhitch]

Who was the informant? Van Damme or Ritcey?No , its confidential

[Drillbit]

No , its confidential

Nothing is confidential.

If the informant wasn't a "confidential informant" they might've been able to make something stick, in time.

Had to be VanneDamme or Ritcey

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So the judge said he was guilty of shooting the ram in the Yukon but the case took too long. Does this mean the crown will have everything lined up to charge and try his partner in a more speedy fashion??

[Xenomorph]

So the judge said he was guilty of shooting the ram in the Yukon but the case took too long. Does this mean the crown will have everything lined up to charge and try his partner in a more speedy fashion??

Not entirely sure if they do, because once the process starts for one, it should theoretically start for everyone involved into this. If Crown prosecuted one of the parties and not the other is because they thought they have better chances/onus of responsibility was greater on the chosen defendant etc.

I don't think they have anything else to do at this point; whether it was the Crown's slip, or the defendant's "defense" to delay the due process... fact of the matter is he got out of it.

[bighornbob]

No pic of the partner in the Yukon. And since all the original photos are gone, I doubt they would procede

[adriaticum]

Abe Dougan poaching case thrown out of court.


http://www.vancouversun.com/news/metro/judge+kills+poaching+case+against+kamloops+years+a fter/11441248/story.html

[Bugle M In]

What a crock of shit. I sincerely hope he is help accountable by public pressure if nothing else.

This guy is a blight on the hunting community, that's coming from someone who knew him, BS'd with him and had for years thought he was a legitimate hard core hunter. Guess I was wrong and he is a dirty poacher. I have 0 respect for him and feel all his trophies are tainted.

Never spoken to him, but know his kind, so x2 on your reply

[bc_buckshot]

Thrown out because judge feels " it took too long"......." Because the animal wasn't a endangered species"......crock of s**t...... What's endangered are soild judges and not the clowns that favor the guilty...

Bet you if this was a case on something else that sparked his intrest he would have a closer look

[guest]

Damn Judge should be ashamed of their decision how PATHETIC !

BC ram hunt in the works some where ?

[boxhitch]

A recent ruling in a Wyoming court on a poaching case said that a 26 month court session wasn't long enough time for a defense plea. Wonder what the precedent is or will be in BC courts

[caves16]

Im trying to wrap my head around the jurisdiction issue. If Yukon COs were given the tip and investigated, why was he charged in BC? Im assuming its because he was using a BC hunting licence and BC LEH tag at the time. The case was about where he shot the sheep - was it killed in the region the LEH permitted him to hunt. Now that we know the judge found as a fact that the sheep was killed in Yukon, seems to me that other than character issues with him wasting court time and resources lying about what he did, there is not a BC infraction. He didn't kill a BC sheep. He killed an animal in another jurisdiction. BC wildlife act is provincial legislation. Yukon has their own legislation.
What i expect to happen next is the Yukon authorities coming after him for taking their wildlife without lawful right. Maybe the time limit has expired on that, I haven't looked into it. But what could Judge Frame give as a consequence if the animal was not a BC animal? Seems to me the case should've been tried in the Yukon to begin with? He's already familiar with the courthouse there.

[Riverbc]

It must be because he's facing federal wildlife charges. Therefore he could be charged and tried in any province or territory in Canada, not just where the infraction occurred.

[troutseeker]

The legal system strikes again. It is certainly a legal system and not a justice system...

[Riverbc]

I found this today. Makes me wonder what they were thinking?!

http://www.eab.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/2013wil049.pdf

[Iron Glove]

The legal system strikes again. It is certainly a legal system and not a justice system...

Agree this guy should've been tried and found guilty however one of the basic principles of our legal system is that you have the right to be tried within a reasonable time frame.
I think we all would agree with this principle and most would likely agree that the time frame in this instance was not "reasonable."

[Riverbc]

Agree this guy should've been tried and found guilty however one of the basic principles of our legal system is that you have the right to be tried within a reasonable time frame.


True......but that doesn't apply to all crimes.

[guest]

Being a so called Guide, with his own operation, he should be held to a higher standard then the general public. That said should be nailed in the Yukon, how can you defend the proof of where the Ram was harvested? Did he also try to pass it off as a BC Ram taken on LEH in BC, if so he should be charged with that too.

As as said before, how pathetic.

[Apolonius]

A hunter that goes out of his way by 18 km in rough country,knows excactly what he is doing.You can't just spot a Sheep from that distance.It was not just accross the border.He hunted the animal knowing full well.And he lied about it.The judge was way out of line.She knew ,he lied and intentionally killed the ram.And if the judge couldn't see the truth ,she should ask for employment as a walmart greeter.And what "delay" has to do with justice?And who caused all this "delays"?The Judge said nothing about Yukon or BC crime.But then he will do it again.All his trophy entries should be erased from the record books.I will not personally buy another book with his name in it.

[Surrey Boy]

True......but that doesn't apply to all crimes.

Murder. Not poaching.

[Fisher-Dude]

Why should people who commit crimes get away with it because they have been crafty enough to escape justice for X number of years?

Is it less of a crime 10 years later than it was 10 minutes later?

Thanks, Trudeau Sr, for giving scumbag poacher criminals a free pass.

[boxhitch]

Thanks, Trudeau Sr, for giving scumbag poacher criminals a free pass. Why ? because he messed with our constitutional rights to things like fair trial , or for the french version of FU ?

[40incher]

Who cares ... at the end of the day Mrs. D will be forever known as a pathetic poachin' guide!! All his kills, especially the "BC" record book dall sheep, are now tainted and the reputation of the G.O. "industry" takes another big hit. But, who really cares as I said, I would bet he is still a "member in good standing" ... just like Stewie and all the rest of the sanctioned poachers.

The court of public opinion still rules bud!

[tangozulu]

Was the ram conviscated? Now send him to Yukon so we can try and fine him again? That ram belongs to the people of Yukon.
.

[SPEYMAN]

Why would the reputation of the G.O. "industry" take a hit for the actions of one individual.? We already face that issue when a "hunter" shoots an animal out of season, at night, without proper tags etc. This issue is an individuals action and does not relate in any way to the G.O. industry. An illegal activity should not be held against a whole group because of the actions of one or a few bad apples.

[Xenomorph]

Why would the reputation of the G.O. "industry" take a hit for the actions of one individual.? We already face that issue when a "hunter" shoots an animal out of season, at night, without proper tags etc. This issue is an individuals action and does not relate in any way to the G.O. industry. An illegal activity should not be held against a whole group because of the actions of one or a few bad apples.

It shouldn't, true; in your own experience though, when did ever the masses act rationally and constructively. All these little "save the bear" groups will see this as another opportunity to support their agenda. It's sad to be honest, it's sad that an amazing animal will forever be tainted by the deed of a guy with no moral compass. Story of a lifetime for kids and grand kids now becomes a sour memory for them and us all.

[BRvalley]

Why would the reputation of the G.O. "industry" take a hit for the actions of one individual.? We already face that issue when a "hunter" shoots an animal out of season, at night, without proper tags etc. This issue is an individuals action and does not relate in any way to the G.O. industry. An illegal activity should not be held against a whole group because of the actions of one or a few bad apples.

what you've said is true, but most hunters are very vocal against poachers and don't tolerate it, whereas GOABC seems to not care...if they displayed less/zero tolerance for guides that pull that type of crap, they'd get more respect from me on that front

aside from the court fines, do these guys face any other consequences? ie from GOABC?

[boxhitch]

All these little "save the bear" groups will see this as another opportunity to support their agenda.Thats quite a sstretch , good imagination. Or do you know something about the inner workings of these groups you speak of ?

it's sad that an amazing animal will forever be tainted its just a sheep , not like its Winny the Pooh or anything.


do these guys ?? the ones with charges dropped ?

[elktracker1975]

Maybe he'll be the next GOABC guide of the year.....what a bunch of bs, sad really.

[Bugle M In]

Maybe he'll be the next GOABC guide of the year.....what a bunch of bs, sad really.

Probably could make "President" of the GOABC now....

[BRvalley]

?? the ones with charges dropped ?

No, I'm talking about the guides that didn't get cases dropped for B.S. reasons, the ones actually found guilty....how does GOABC handle those guides?

if an accountant commits fraud, he/she loses their designation...resident hunters have their hunting privileges revoked...drunk drivers lose their licence...etc, etc....how does GOABC handle guides actually found guilty? it's a genuine question, I don't know the answer...

[RugDoctor]

There's a designation to be an accountant? I thought you just had to have little man syndrome and soft hands....

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Dougan was removed as a member of GOABC last year when this stuff came to light. He has since sold out his business.

[Steve W]

Dougan was removed as a member of GOABC last year when this stuff came to light. He has since sold out his business.

Thanks for the update.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Dougan was removed as a member of GOABC last year when this stuff came to light. He has since sold out his business.

That's good to hear!

[tangozulu]

Still want that ram returned to yukon.it is stolen property.