Archery in BC

[Tinney]

As a long time member of the archery community in BC I have seen a fair bit of change in how things work. In recent years, the rift between different groups has widened (In my eyes anyway). With the rise of organizations such as the TBBC and UBBC, do you feel that archery is now more or less organized in BC? Are you comfortable with the system as it is now? I would personally like to see a unified archery organization for BC with different 'caucuses' if you will, each representing a certain, more specialized division of archery. EG: Target, 3D, Bowhunting, Traditional and Crossbow. (Examples only! I am in no way attempting to draw lines!).
We, as the members of HBC, have been closer to agreeing lately than ever before. Discuss.

[J_T]

Well Tinney, There are those that have been fighting for unity for a long time. Looking at various options developing relationships and earning trust and credibility.

Should there be one Rod and Gun Club?

The UBBC now has representation in every area of the province. It is gaining respect provincially, it is a new organization and it is the culmination of a lot of work between members of many organizations, breaking down the barriers and building new relationships.

There are those that want one thing out of their involvement and those that want something different. The UBBC represents an opportunity for anyone that wants to support more bowhunting opportunity in BC.

Once again you don't state your geographic area on your handle, so I can't advise you whom to seek out.

The UBBC President lives on the Island, the VP in Quesnel.

[Tinney]

I don't need to seek out anyone. I know the who's who. I'm not talking dissolve the regional/city clubs. I'm talking about having ONE umbrella for archers of the province to be under. Not different factions each with a different mission statement and purpose. I would like to see one singular group that is capable of representing everyone. I am from Prince George.
I understand that the UBBC has been doing good for themselves and I am in now way trying to pick fights with different organization. I am thinking on a larger scale than just the bowhunting community, as I have been on both sides of this fence.

[Onesock]

What the hell do you think the UBBC is Tinney?

[Onesock]

Sorry, the UBBC represents all bowhunters!!!

[Tinney]

I don't feel that it adequately represents me as a bowhunter.

[Mulie_Hunter]

As far as I know this horse is dead, but I guess its still having the boots layed to it.

[The Hermit]

Tinney

What are your perceptions about the various organizations and their mandates? An analogy...

I am a car guy. I belong to the Datsun Club as a special interest community. I belong to a couple internet clubs that best serve as broader technical resources and one that is just social BS between car guys out to have fun. I belong to a race oriented club cause I like to track my car.

I don't think one organization can meet all those interests as well as the separate groups. In fact I want to start another one with the sole mandate to get the freakin oil companies to lower fuel prices!!! LOL

[Coyote]

Tinney as pres of the UBBC Im interested. Would you be willing to share your opinion on why you feel you aren't represented.

Gord

[greybark]

8-) Hey Tinny , Good and timely post . The BCAA years ago got talked into having a VP Bowhunting . The first such VP (from Williams Lake) worked hard in this portfolio but got little support and nothing done . The only 'bowhunting venture" they got into was the Prov 3-d Championship where there was money to be made . These Championships have had less participation each year and I admit i have a wee grudge with the organizing group . To be fair the Alberta and Saskatchewan Archery Assc have not impressed me as far as running Prov Championships .
8) Years ago I suggested that look into the TBBC being under the central umbrela BCAA , that involved in everything we fought and strived for being lost and our moneys going to them for membership and insurance . It was easy to talk me out of that idea .
8) Interestingly I had the same idea of one organization for bowhunters put to me by the then President of the Abbotsford Archery Club . I`m very impressed with the UBBC`s President and Vice along with their members of what they stand for and has been acomplished in such a short time .
:) I wish the best to the UBBC ....


REM

[greybark]

I don't feel that it adequately represents me as a bowhunter.

8-) Perhaps you just don`t want it to....

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[J_T]

What does representing you as a bowhunter look like.

It takes time, people and resources to represent. The UBBC is just getting rolling.

[JohnS]

What does representing you as a bowhunter look like.

It takes time, people and resources to represent. The UBBC is just getting rolling.


8-) Well said.....

[willyqbc]

I don't feel that it adequately represents me as a bowhunter.


so who or what does then? Point me in the direction of an organization doing more to try and represent you as a bowhunter and I will gladly sign on to try and help them as well!!

Chris

[pupper]

How do you want to be represented?

how should all of us want to be represented?

a voice in parliment?

a voice in the community?

[Bow Walker]

Isn't the UBBC all of the above? Doesn't the UBBC name stand for what everyone here seems to want?

Gord, it might help to refresh memories here by posting up the UBBC's mandate.

If there was/is an organization that represents us as a segment of the hunting populace it's the UBBC. If in doubt, seek out your area/zone rep and talk to them about what they and the organization are trying to accomplish.

[J_T]

BowWalker, I believe the UBBC wants to in essence be all of the above, however there remains work to be done. I believe the UBBC can be all of the above in terms of representing hunters/bowhunters objectively at hunting/wildlife discussions.

The UBBC must be accepted by Government as a voice, as a legitimate voice. In some cases ingrained thinking prevents a new voice, it takes time. In some cases it is a question of respect or perspective. Should an organization like the BCWF respect the UBBC? I don't know. Perhaps. Why not? What is the risk in supporting the UBBC?

Hunting is a passion and perhaps the perceptions of some (not all) that any season (GOS) is a season in which a bowhunter can choose to hunt with his bow and therefore this equates to opportunity (in some cases it does) is all that is required is more like a discussion on religion or abortion. Just passionately aren't going to agree.

[Bow Walker]

There are a few of many things that move with the speed of molasses in January.....Tax refund cheques, Gov't policy changes, Lawyers'.

The UBBC is a young organization and as such will have to take the time to establish themselves in order to be taken seriously by everyone - from individuals right on up.

It is obviously frustrating (for some) to have to wait that requisite amount of time.

'Patience Grasshopper(s), patience'

[Awishanew]

Tinney. I feel that the hunting aspect of archery should be separate from the 3D and target archery. The UBBC deals with this and leaves the fun part to individule clubs or organizations.

[Rainwater]

Tinney, Please do not drag the TBBC into this discussion. Although we support fully and endorse the UBBC we are a group of bowhunters who by choice have selected traditional equipment to use, ie. recurves, longbows, selfbows etc. I will never endorse badmouthing by our members of other archers, but as you know people still have their opinions. We however are dedicated to securing the tradition of bowhunting through the teachings of conservation, ethics and sound wildlife management. We mentor young people, do consevation projects and sit in on hunter advisory committee meetings. The UBBC is strictly a bowhunter advocacy group (not 3D/or field archery/) and the brochure they will send you pretty well spells it out. Whether people in the crowd want to believe it or not Bowhunting in our Province is on the move, a monumental history making document which will decide the future of bowhunters and bowhunting is being re-written. I sure as hell want a bowhunting advocacy group at that table.

[Tinney]

So the vote actually looks like 11 to 14, because bartell only voted no to PUT me off :lol:
I'm confused, Rainwater, you voted Yes but you seem to be advocating that the TBBC have their own organization....???

No time to explain statement but if someone could post the UBBC mandate as a refresher that would be nice. Keep it coming folks.



edited by: Cuss Cop........again!
Tinney - just for the fun of it try making your posts without cuss words, it's fun and makes you more aware of the english language.:smile:

[Onesock]

I don't think we should let Tinney join the UBBC!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No matter how much money he offers us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rainwater]

I esplain, I esplain, I esplain, I give up, re-read my post. The TBBC is what it is, just like a pistol club, blackpowder, karate. We have our own traditional shoots and just like karate clubs they don't invite boxers, yaddee yaddee yaddee. And Tinney, how did you know I voted that way, how undemocratic, I quit voting. Happy Easter!!

[Rainwater]

Tinney, You tricked us you devil, the poll should have read bowhunting. Archery means a lot of things, 3D, Olympic, Golf Archery, Flight etc. The UBBC is a Bowhunter advocacy group. My vote stays the same however but maybe coyote killer will change is view. Remember Democracy is Two Wolves and a Sheep deciding on Dinner.

[Coyote]

Tinney these are the objectives of the UBBC as posted on our website at UBBC.ca

I invite you to take a look at the site and then as JT said tell me what representation look like to you. We want to do a good job representing BC bowhunters. Feedback and opinions are welcome

The objectives of the United Bowhunters of British Columbia are:

1. To foster and expand the practice of archery, the sport of bowhunting and the spirit of good fellowship among archers.

2. To co-operate with the Provincial Government and all conservation organizations in the conservation of game; and to encourage the use of the bow in the ethical hunting of all legal game; and to protect, improve and increase the privileges of bowhunters.

3. To provide and promote/endorse programs of educational value, on bowhunting, archery and related subjects; and to establish and make available materials and information for interested persons.

4. To provide a meeting place for the consideration and discussion of questions affecting the interest of the members of the British Columbia Bowhunters Association.

5. To sell, manage, lease, mortgage, dispose of, or otherwise deal with the property of the United Bowhunters of British Columbia.

[Bow Walker]

Coyote..........
To quote a line from the 'new' Stargate SG-1 program - "Now that's what I'm talking about!"

As the UBBC sticks to it's mandate and continues to grow and gain credibility we, as archers, should be (as I am) behind the association 100%

[Tinney]

1) It's a public poll, you were warned your vote would be visible.

2) Why should the poll have read bowhunting? I am talking archery as a whole. Would this poll have made any sense if I put it under tha Target Archery board?

I don't know Coyote, sorry. I guess I'm going to have to give it some time and see if you boys give me reason for membbership. I honestly don't feel the need to belong to three different organizations depending on my tackle choice for the day. I have always felt quite well represented by the BCAA but that may be due to my roots as a competition shooter. I feel that the BCAA represents me well enough whether I choose to pick up my target bow, 3D bow or longbow.

[6616]

Quote by J_T: "The UBBC must be accepted by Government as a voice, as a legitimate voice. In some cases ingrained thinking prevents a new voice, it takes time. In some cases it is a question of respect or perspective. Should an organization like the BCWF respect the UBBC? I don't know. Perhaps. Why not? What is the risk in supporting the UBBC?"

Right on J_T. The BCWF has been accussed many times of not being able to represent bowhunters adequatelly. The BCWF represents all hunters and is more involved in overarching policy discussions (allocation for example), land use discussions, generic hunting administration (Wildlife Act Review currently), etc., and does not seek special opportunities for any one type of hunting. Items relating to hunting opportunities have to be done regionally and the regional bodies of the BCWF are usually open to suggestions but the vast majority of hunters are still rifle hunters. This places bowhunters at somewhat of an disadvantge and I believe the UBBC is needed, it's what has been needed all along, and they will present a consistent, reasonable, and non-confrontational voice on behalf of bowhunters, and if they can do this, they will be the "go to" organization regarding bowhunting discussions in a very short time.

Being recognized by government or being respected by giant organizations like the BCWF is not automatic, it must be developed and takes some time, credibility must be earned, consistency and cooperative realtionshipos must be built, all this eventually will come. Considering the effort being put forth by the UBBC executive at this time, I believe it will happen quicker than most people would think.

Should, or can the BCWF represent all bowhunters? It could if enough bowhunters were involved in the BCWF, but the UBBC can probably do a better job. The UBBC needs to work in unision and cooperation with the BCWF, not in opposition as that is like a mouse attacking an elephant. As relationships are built, as government recognition is developed, and the UBBC shows they can work in cooperation with the BCWF, the rifts will narrow and the BCWF will probably come to a point where they will support UBBC initiatives, respect the UBBC as a credible entity and support the UBBC as a partner and like minded organization. A relationship much like the very positive relationship the BCWF has with the BCTA needs to exist and I believe the UBBC should make it a priority to start development of a positive and cooperative working relationship with the BCWF at the earliest possible time. The result would be that in time the UBBC will be involved in all decisions pretaining to bowhunting enjoying the support of the BCWF at the same time.

Numbers are not a big issue. Bowhunters should not feel outgunned because of the number of rifle hunters. The BCWF is not outgunned in Victoria and considering there are only 30,000 members out of a provincial population of 4.2 million it shows that numbers are not everything. A credible, reliable, and well respected organization with a consistent and non-confrontational voice that is ready and willing to provide reasonable and sensible input to government whenever input is requested is really what's important. Credibility, and keeping in mind that the government will not deal with confrontational organizations, is the key in my humble opinion.

[Tinney]

I feel the BCWF represents hunters. Period. If anyone, as a bowhunter, has a problem being grouped with rifle hunters under a blanket organization such as the BCWF, they are nothig but a divisive force to the hunting community in BC.
This is how I view the archery community. Bowhunters vs trad vs crossbows vs target. It needs to change.

[6616]

Well stated Tinney, couldn't agree more.
6616

[Kirby]

I feel the BCWF represents hunters. Period. If anyone, as a bowhunter, has a problem being grouped with rifle hunters under a blanket organization such as the BCWF, they are nothig but a divisive force to the hunting community in BC.
This is how I view the archery community. Bowhunters vs trad vs crossbows vs target. It needs to change.

I'm shocked to say this... but I agree...

Kirby

[Tinney]

I'm shocked to say this... but I agree...

Kirby

Then why did you vote no?

[Kirby]

I voted yes

Ah shit. I wanted to vote yes, to many beer.

Kirby

[Tinney]

No wonder there's so many scraps on HBC :lol: Everyone's loaded all the time :lol:

[willyqbc]

We held the indoor FITA Provincials here in Quesnel this week-end and i spent a good deal of time talking with the fellow responsible for 3D and bowhunting for the BCAA. He is personally quite happy that the UBBC was formed because the issue of dealing with the issue of bowhunting in B.C. is just way to big for him to handle. As he said "you need a whole other organization to deal with what I was being asked to take on by the BCAA".

All forms of target archery are enough for one organization to deal with without trying to deal with all the bowhunting issues as well. The one all encompassing organization you speak of would be to big and the right hand wouldn't know what the left was doing anyways. On paper you could say they were "under one umbrella" but they would still be seperate entities.

Just my opinion.
Chris

[Coyote]

Tinney the UBBC is most definately not trying to fragment hunters in BC. As someone said earlier the BCWF is about hi level stuff. If they want to represent me as a hunter good on 'em. But I don't believe they are ABLE to represent me as a BOWhunter which is what I and many others primarily are. I believe their constitution prevents it.

The government needs and wants reliable info and advice on bowhunting issues, bowhunting being very different than firearms hunting. The BCAA supports us but is too busy with the competitive target branch of archery to do the job (with much deserved respect to Ted Kennedy). The TBBC is a fraternal organization that enjoys stick and string and cannot and does not want to represent all bowhunters, compound shooters being the vast majority. So who's left to do the job. Until the UBBC came along there was no one.

Consider us the bowhunting advisors to the ministry. Consider us the group that will look for opportunity that until now no one has. And finally consider us dedicated to everyones right to hunt using whatever hunting implement is allowed.

[Nails]

wheres the stir stick!!!!

[Nails]

I'm very satisfied with UBBC representing my interest.

[superkill]

hey guys,
I believe we all have too pull our heads out of our port holes
and stick together.
wich ever the entity you represent
sticks,wheels or crossbows, we need people too represent us, and we need to get involved and quit bit**ing
Time for a group hug

[willyqbc]

forget it Will....I ain't huggin ya!!...maybe Sam will if you ask her real nice though!!:mrgreen:

Chris

[bow guy]

I don't come onto these sites very often, but all you guys should get you heads out of your asses and unight and come together as one!! all these little organization will not get us bowhunting only areas or help protect bowhunting in BC or do anything for us, it's a number game when it comes to getting areas and protecting what you have now. Weather your shooting a recurve, longbow or compound, or cross bow we are all shooting arrow and need to get along and be one. It seems if someone doesn't like someone they go and start something up instead of making it work. We all need to stop and become one, sit down at the next big 3-D . The big shoot they had on Van Is. at Cowichan bowmen they opened it to cross bows, I think that is a start. We are all the same don't forget that.

[Tinney]

Bump :twisted:

[boxhitch]

Can't let sleeping dogs lay ? Pass the popcorn.

[Tinney]

It's been a while and the vote's tied. Actually, three up for the good side since kirby was loaded when he voted :lol: This issue still sticks in my skin a bit

[Sideofabarn]

So young man, one year on, what are your presumably developing ideas on the topic? I think it would be great if we all had a single solid voice. That said, I also recognise the need for niche groups. In hunting, as in fishing, there are the anal retentive types who take umbrage with those they feel aren't quite getting it, i.e. start a thread raving about crossbows, and watch the archery guys turn differing shades of crimson. Not being a rifle guy, I don't know if a similar rift exists for the gun fraternity, say old school calibres versus new hot shooting ones. As I'm fairly certain you're aware, diehard fly fishers quite often look with disdain on gear chuckers. Because, for whatever reason, these canyons of stupidity exist in a pastime (sorry, I just can't call hunting a sport) that is fast becoming marginal in our evolving? society, I can't see a blanket organisation working. People are generally too self involved and self aggrandizing to make this dream a reality. Thoughts from a feeble minded guy...

[Tinney]

My ideas are similar. Right now, I have no representation in BC as an archer. I don't pay BCAA dues anymore, as I don't agree with Susan Lemke and her approach to archery. I suppose now I lean more toward the UBBC but with my grassroots being competition, and bowhunting only a few days a year, I won't bother paying dues to them. It's become ridiculously fragmented.

[sealevel]

I never could under stand that logic... i don`t agree so i will not join ....Don`t you think it would be better to join and work to make it better . Or do you just want to bitch.

[Tinney]

I never could under stand that logic... i don`t agree so i will not join ....Don`t you think it would be better to join and work to make it better . Or do you just want to bitch.

Not all of us have lots of free time and money to fling around :lol:

[J_T]

So young man, one year on, what are your presumably developing ideas on the topic? I think it would be great if we all had a single solid voice. That said, I also recognise the need for niche groups. In hunting, as in fishing, there are the anal retentive types who take umbrage with those they feel aren't quite getting it, i.e. start a thread raving about crossbows, and watch the archery guys turn differing shades of crimson. Not being a rifle guy, I don't know if a similar rift exists for the gun fraternity, say old school calibres versus new hot shooting ones. As I'm fairly certain you're aware, diehard fly fishers quite often look with disdain on gear chuckers. Because, for whatever reason, these canyons of stupidity exist in a pastime (sorry, I just can't call hunting a sport) that is fast becoming marginal in our evolving? society, I can't see a blanket organisation working. People are generally too self involved and self aggrandizing to make this dream a reality. Thoughts from a feeble minded guy...
Nicely said.

Yes, I too wondered why you bothered to resurrect the old post. However I have no problem with this being up here again.

Tinney, it seems to me, the fragmentation is within you and it's up to you to find a way to process it and accept it. (or not) Education is a key and good on you for that.

I'm not going to challenge you for a membership whether you have one or not, but I will say, that most people today live on the financial edge of kaos (time and money). There are those that feel passionate enough to contribute. Each in their own way, does what they can.

In your own way, you have resurrected this post. It may be for different reasons, but I appreciate you keeping bowhunting in the spotlight. (in your own way you provide a service)

It's up to all of us to keep the spotlight a positive light.

[Onesock]

Hey JT glad to see you are up with the rest of us low life bowhunters.

[huntwriter]

I feel the BCWF represents hunters. Period. If anyone, as a bowhunter, has a problem being grouped with rifle hunters under a blanket organization such as the BCWF, they are nothig but a divisive force to the hunting community in BC.
This is how I view the archery community. Bowhunters vs trad vs crossbows vs target. It needs to change.
That right there is the root of all the problems in the archery / bowhunting community. Each of these groups thinks of itself as some sort of elite and the crossbow segment is still largely viewed as inferior or bully.

This is also the reason why an umbrella organization never would work. To make it work and gain acceptance archers would have to learn the principle of take a little and give a little and above all be open minded about other forms of archery.
Read my signature.

[Fisher-Dude]

I think the "me" generation has a bit to do with the fragmentation of hunting groups (irrespective of bow, gun, slingshot, etc). People have a tough time understanding that consensus doesn't necessarily mean compromising one's beliefs or goals. "If it doesn't fit ME like a glove, I don't want it."

Unfortunately, the leaders of these fragmented groups have a big task ahead of them to bring the synergies together. It's tough to promote "your" membership's immediate goals (opportunities, recruitment to your group, education, etc) while on the other hand putting resources and energy into breaking down traditional boundaries between the groups.

[OOBuck]

Do I get a special T shirt or a secret decoder ring if I vote yes???:lol:

hunting is hunting, whatever floats your boat be it twig chucker or lead hurriling devise.. :cool:

As far as Associations or Clubs or whatever, I have seen from pass experience clubs & associations cause their own demise, by gaining so much power that the government allows they the right the regs and shortly after the downhill slide starts....

I'm not saying that this will happen here but... Time will tell...:cool:

[LeverActionJunkie]

I haven't even begun bowhunting yet. But I heard something once that made sense to me. United We Stand Divided we Fall

[sealevel]

That right there is the root of all the problems in the archery / bowhunting community. Each of these groups thinks of itself as some sort of elite and the crossbow segment is still largely viewed as inferior or bully.

This is also the reason why an umbrella organization never would work. To make it work and gain acceptance archers would have to learn the principle of take a little and give a little and above all be open minded about other forms of archery.
Read my signature.
I think archers are doing this in the ubbc There are trad and compound bowhunters working together with the bcwf for better hunting opertunities. Crossbow hunters could fit into this if they would quit sitting on the sidelines felling alienated .

[Sideofabarn]

I think archers are doing this in the ubbc There are trad and compound bowhunters working together with the bcwf for better hunting opertunities. Crossbow hunters could fit into this if they would quit sitting on the sidelines felling alienated .

And also if the hardliners would quit snubbing them. Personally I don't care if anyone uses an atlatl or a howitzer. We all kill stuff and enjoy the fruits of the labour, be it meat on the table, or a funky rug. We also understand that the hunt is about so much more than the hunt itself. We understand the concept of death giving life, to some degree. We SHOULD stand together and be counted for our choices, as backwoods as they seem to be to our urbane fellows. However, for the life of me I fail to comprehend why some folks feel that their method of delivering death to animals is in some way superior to others. Some like the challenge of being close with a bow, others get off on 250 yard shots with a high power... Who is better, and more importantly, who's to say? In my (yes Tinney, rapidly aging) mind, neither. Maybe the question is not who can best represent me, but for who can I stand up and defend, as part of the hunting fraternity?

[Tinney]

I'm surprised you can still type in your advanced state of decay :lol:

I mainly bumped it to get a few more votes, and/or to see if anyone's opinions had changed in a year. FD makes a good point about the ME way of looking at it. Good point to ponder.

Oh and JT, when you can barely afford to feed yourself, and you put $5 of gas in your truck at a time, you're where I am :lol:

[6616]

As someone said earlier the BCWF is about hi level stuff. If they want to represent me as a hunter good on 'em. But I don't believe they are ABLE to represent me as a BOWhunter which is what I and many others primarily are. I believe their constitution prevents it.

I don't understand how this statement can be true! I'd really appreciate an explanation of why the and how the BCWF constitution specifically does not allow them to support bowhunting.

http://bcwf.bc.ca/about/constitution.html

[willyqbc]

6616, perhaps I can explain this a bit. I currently represent the UBBC in region 5 and am friends with the local president of the BCWF. This does not make us adversaries neccesarily, but in our conversations it was clear to me that the BCWf is not in the business of seeking out any "special" seasons beyond those that apply to youth and seniors. I believe the position was that ANY opportunity should be available to every hunter of the province or not at all. Fair enough if that is their position. In that regard we have agreed on a working relationship that can be beneficial to both our organizations. On smaller issues concerning specific seasons etc that are of particular benefit to our own groups we have agreed to disagree with no hard feelings, but on the bigger issues concerning the welfare of hunting in general in the region/province we have agreed that this is where we can work together for the betterment of all. Just because we seek different opportunities does not mean we have to be in conflict, we have both been able to see the merit of each others position and have actually had some good conversations where.... EGAD....compromises from both sides were actually talked about!! A step in the right direction if you ask me. Also the talk from the BCWF about creating a bowhunting advocate position, or whatever they are calling it shows us that they are now recognizing that maybe better representation for all can be achieved. Overall i think we are starting to move in the right direction, but there are still lots of old scars that are going to take some time to heal!

Chris

[Tinney]

6616, perhaps I can explain this a bit. I currently represent the UBBC in region 5 and am friends with the local president of the BCWF. This does not make us adversaries neccesarily, but in our conversations it was clear to me that the BCWf is not in the business of seeking out any "special" seasons beyond those that apply to youth and seniors. I believe the position was that ANY opportunity should be available to every hunter of the province or not at all. Fair enough if that is their position. In that regard we have agreed on a working relationship that can be beneficial to both our organizations. On smaller issues concerning specific seasons etc that are of particular benefit to our own groups we have agreed to disagree with no hard feelings, but on the bigger issues concerning the welfare of hunting in general in the region/province we have agreed that this is where we can work together for the betterment of all. Just because we seek different opportunities does not mean we have to be in conflict, we have both been able to see the merit of each others position and have actually had some good conversations where.... EGAD....compromises from both sides were actually talked about!! A step in the right direction if you ask me. Also the talk from the BCWF about creating a bowhunting advocate position, or whatever they are calling it shows us that they are now recognizing that maybe better representation for all can be achieved. Overall i think we are starting to move in the right direction, but there are still lots of old scars that are going to take some time to heal!

Chris

I definitely agree with the BCWF stance here. There should be no special consideration given to bowhunters by the BCWF. What next? BCWF giving consideration to fly fishermen for fly fishing only lakes? Get a grip.

If you want the BCWF to make changes on your behalf: Make resolutions, word them in such a way that you don't sound like you're attacking rifle hunters, get support for them and submit them to convention!

[aggiehunter]

For bowhunting opportunity and its future i believe in the UBBC

[willyqbc]

Tinney, hypothetically, if faced with the question from the ministry that you have one of 2 choices....a lake that will be fly fishing only, or barring that no fishing will be allowed there at all....which would you choose?? Total removal of opportunity is good for noone. The UBBC is looking for opportunities that are NOT going to be allowed in the form of a GOS because under a general gun hunt they would not be sustainable. As an example...the late bow seasons as they exist now.....the ministry is never going to allow a general hunt for deer on winter range in most of the province but they will allow a bowhunt because the impact is so low and the harvest rates are so low...because the rifle hunters cannot participate in this season would we be better off removing that opportunity alltogether?? I don't think so, its all about creating new opportunities within the realistic framework that exists, not about bowhunters trying to take from the gun hunters.

Just my opinion.
Chris

[Onesock]

Yes. And the UBBC is it!!!

[Onesock]

Sorry, UBBC reppresents all bowhunters!!!

[gitnadoix]

Many people view wildlife very possessively, and they resent any opportunity that another user group might be afforded. I imagine they rationalize that if that other user group takes an animal, then that is one animal that for sure they will never get a chance at.

If you use this same rational then you must also prescribe to the theory that if there are not enough animals for a general season there better not be an LEH season as those special “lucky” people are the only ones getting to hunt while we sit on the side lines.

But of course the defense of that statement is usually “we can all put in for LEH and have just as much chance as every one ”

The funny thing about it is, archery equipment is available to every one as well. So instead on poo-pooing a potential opportunity, jump on the band wagon and join in. Why would you want to remove an opportunity equally afforded to all.

I am at a loss why ?????

[Onesock]

Gitnadoix- Exellent question. I would like to hear an exellent answer.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

what a Poop sammich .... mind if I take a bite?

In my short time here in BC ...I havent seen the BCWF do much ... nor have i really seen the BCAA or the UBBC do much meither ... but after looking into it ... I as a bowhunter am not comfortable placing my choice of recreation into the a full blown umbrella group like the BCWF. I want a group that knows my sport like the UBBC or BCAA (not the car club) because realistically unless you have you head totally up your ass you will see that rifle hunting and bow hunting are 2 totally differant disiplines ... the only similarity is at the end of the day hopefully you are eating backstraps....

Now as far as archery associations are concerned as I think that was the intent of this post ... I have seen first hand what happens with there are too many cooks in that kitchen .... the Abortion in Alberta is a prime example .... there is 1 umbrella organization (AAA I think) with 2 sub orgs: the ATAA witch is mandated to the target aspect and the ABA (Alberta bowhunting assoc.) witch was mandated to the hunting aspect of archery. The ATAA is now known as the as the Edmonton Paper Punchers club and they hold the AB 3D provincials .... Lots of BS politics ...long story short not well attended events.

the ABAs job is lobby for Bowhunting opportunities etc .... you can thank them for the very Liberal Bow seasons in Alberta (almost 2.5 months more than general open season) the hold 3 3D shoots a year ... rather well attended but really meant nothing in the eyes of competive 3D archers as the shoots were set up at a grass roots level of hunting practice... Not anything wrong with that, just not what a group of Alberta archers wanted.

So in 2005 a group of Competive 3D Archers from Alberta came up with the idea to spread the southern AB shoot tour (allready proven for 12 years at that point as succesfull format) Province wide and the 3D Archers of Alberta was formed in Aug of 05 with the province slit into 4 zones with 2 directors from each zone and a standard BOD (of which I was elected a part of) was formed. And we came up with a PGA style tour format. Cash and swag prizes ...with the eventuall idea for funding to National and International events such as the world FITA 3D championships ...as held in Hungary last year(4 CDNs went and all of whitch were 3DAA members) There was some resistance at first from members of the other orgs. but now it is embraced and Mother of all shoots in Red Deer this weekend being its indoor Provincial Championship at over 310 unique archers(by my count..results attached below for those interested) (I dont numbers from Abbotsford this year but according to BC archer mag the 2007 numbers were about 200,I was told on another thread that there was like 600 in abbotsford albeit some repeats...I find that hard to beleive). Alot of East Kootenay archers are members of the 3DAA as well

at any rate even my post has gone off topic ....cut through all my BS and my point is if you want to to be represented you must support the organization that represents you if you bowhunt it must the UBBC as they are the only ones who care about bowhunting opportunities in BC ... Did you not hear about the Bow only zone that just opened in Prince Rupert .... Thank you UBBC I am going there to get me a deer this year....
If You are a target archer and care about it ...You must join the BCAA(again not the car club) ...If you dont like Susan Lemke's Politics ... then jopin and say something ...Dont bitch about it on Hunting BC ..that wont do a bit of good and frankly it makes you look ....(how do I say this PC like ...) Touched ... or you have another option ... Form your own archery ORG. and see what happens ...

as far as the TBBC I really cant comment on them as i was under the impression they are a Tradional style archery club ... i dont shoot long bow or recurve enough to warrant me looking at them... perhaps i will soon...

since I cant attach an .XLS
here is the link to the Bowzone thread with Mother results
http://forum.bowzone.ca/showthread.php?t=7666&page=2

[J_T]

6616, perhaps I can explain this a bit. I currently represent the UBBC in region 5 and am friends with the local president of the BCWF. This does not make us adversaries neccesarily, but in our conversations it was clear to me that the BCWf is not in the business of seeking out any "special" seasons beyond those that apply to youth and seniors. I believe the position was that ANY opportunity should be available to every hunter of the province or not at all. Fair enough if that is their position. In that regard we have agreed on a working relationship that can be beneficial to both our organizations. On smaller issues concerning specific seasons etc that are of particular benefit to our own groups we have agreed to disagree with no hard feelings, but on the bigger issues concerning the welfare of hunting in general in the region/province we have agreed that this is where we can work together for the betterment of all. Just because we seek different opportunities does not mean we have to be in conflict, we have both been able to see the merit of each others position and have actually had some good conversations where.... EGAD....compromises from both sides were actually talked about!! A step in the right direction if you ask me. Also the talk from the BCWF about creating a bowhunting advocate position, or whatever they are calling it shows us that they are now recognizing that maybe better representation for all can be achieved. Overall i think we are starting to move in the right direction, but there are still lots of old scars that are going to take some time to heal!


Well said Chris. I too believe that we have have turned a corner. This site, has perhaps provided an opportunity for many (myself as one) to have some freeflowing discussion on a variety of topics. To have learned and grown and hopefully, we have risen out of the mud, knowing we are all passionate but respecting the difference we may have.

It doesn't mean we can't be different, and it doesn't mean we can't support each other and the greater good. I'm a hunter first, I'm a bowhunter and I believe there are opportunities to be pursued for bowhunting, for hunters.

6616, regardless of our pursuit, I believe we respect one another and support one another.

Tinney, I've raised 4 young men in your position. I frequently hear the phone calls about groceries, vehicle repairs etct. It's a tough life. But I hope you are doing it because it is haeding in a direction you are interested in. Many of us have been there.

[6616]

I definitely agree with the BCWF stance here. There should be no special consideration given to bowhunters by the BCWF. What next? BCWF giving consideration to fly fishermen for fly fishing only lakes? Get a grip.

If you want the BCWF to make changes on your behalf: Make resolutions, word them in such a way that you don't sound like you're attacking rifle hunters, get support for them and submit them to convention!

Interesting replies. I Think tinney said it better than I could.

There are many special interest groups among fisherman, among rifle hunters, among bowhunters and among black powder hunters as well. It's impossible to please everyone since all these groups compete with each other for season time and allocation, so the BCWF has never recommended special seasons for any hunter or angler special interest group.

The only special seasons we've ever supported are the youth/senior seasons because we fully support the Ministries Hunter Recruitment/Retention Stratgey and we see these seasons as being critical to that program. Bow seasons are too, and that's why we supported the lengthy moose bow season in conjunction with the proposed spike/fork moose season in Region 4.

We lost the Steelhead Societies affiliate membership in the BCWF because we would not support special management options for steelhead. The Steelhead Society is a special interest group and I have the utmost respect for them, but the BCWF would not give steelhead special consideration over other fish species and that caused a rift.

Bowhunters seem to be in a similar position as are fly fishermen who have their own society, but many of the fly fishing clubs belong to the BCWF as well as the FFF. The BCWF does not always agree with the FFF, especially on, catch and release strategies, but we manage to get along and work together. We do not have fly-fishing clubs threatening to leave the BCWF every time there's a debate over catch and release. They are aware of and respect the BCWF position as the BCWF does their position. Bowhunters must do the same. We should not view ourselves as competitive, but should compliment each other whenever possible, and not make a big issue of it because there are areas were we do not see eye to eye.

Bowhunting clubs should belong to the BCWF but should also have their own Archery Organizations, as Tinney said submit resolutions and get members to the convention to speak in support of those resolutions. You cannot change the BCWF by bitching from the outside.

You need to be aware that not only do bowhunters see the BCWF as not being of much use to them, the high level people in the BCWF are also feeling a little animosity towards bowhunters simply because of the frequent agressive statements bowhunters made about the BCWF. We're letting the rift widen and that's a huge mistake.

Also don't forget there are a significant number of bowhunters in the BCWF, I have no idea of exact numbers, but I'll bet it's just as many as belong to the TBBC or UBBC. I often hear comments from bowhunters inside the Fed very similar to Tinney's about special seasons.

And...........I still don't understand what the BCWF consitution has to do with it? Hunting is mentioned frequently but there are no references to weapons or types of hunting. Waterfowl hunters do not see this as a bias against them, why should bowhunters.

[J_T]

With all due respect Andy, then perhaps the powers that be - or designated decision making personnel - within the BCWF make themselves known to the 3 primary archery organizations in BC and have a discussion about the possibilities.

[Tinney]

Maybe the TBBC and UBBC should become BCWF affiliates?

[6616]

With all due respect Andy, then perhaps the powers that be - or designated decision making personnel - within the BCWF make themselves known to the 3 primary archery organizations in BC and have a discussion about the possibilities.

I believe that was discussed at the last board meeting and something like that is in the works.

[6616]

Maybe the TBBC and UBBC should become BCWF affiliates?

You might be surprized to hear me say this, but I actually don't think that would be a good idea. It would be the same as the Steelhead Society and that didn't work. I made this same recommendation to the Wild Sheep Society many years ago when I was on their board. Single species orgs, special interest orgs, and any narrow or single focus groups are not happy in the BCWF because the BCWF is too broad focused and tries to balance conservation of all species with no special consideration for any one single species. This is much the same as our position towards weapon choices and hunting in general.

The provincial committees focus on issues like the allocation review, the LEH review, and the Wildlife Act review. Regulations, seasons, etc, are nearly all done regionally through our regional associations. The provincial committees rarely ever get involved in these decisions. Bowhunting clubs could have a large impact on seasons and regulations if they belonged to the Fed, but not at the Fed level, only at the regional association level. They could however impact the Fed position on the above mentioned provincial reviews, if they belonged to the Fed.

The Federation of Fly Fishers does not belong to the BCWF, but many of the fly fishing clubs that are affiliated with the FFF also are affiliated with the BCWF and that does seem to work and those clubs do have an impact on BCWF policy and positions. That's what I've always maintained I'd like to see bowhunting clubs do. All those fly fishing clubs have input into both the FFF as well as the BCWF, bowhunting clubs could do the same.

The UBBC and TBBC would only get a couple votes each in the BCWF based on membership. We have several clubs in the Fed with over 2000 members and they only get two votes each. However if 25 small town bowhunting clubs joined individually they would each get a single vote, or two votes if their membership is over 200. I don't know how many bowhunting clubs there are in BC, but I'm sure there are enough to have a significant impact on BCWF policy if they all were voting members.

Bowhunters could easily impact BCWF policy from the inside, but they will never do it from the outside. There's 125 clubs in the BCWF, but It's not all about votes, or them vrs us, we're all in this together and it's often more about just being there, having a voice, and promoting ones interests.

[Bow Walker]

It's too bad that there are not a lot of "bow hunting" clubs in BC. There are a lot of "archery" clubs, though, many of them have memberships well in excess of 200.

Is there a registry for bow hunting clubs in BC? Maybe a website listing the various bow hunting clubs?

[6616]

It's too bad that there are not a lot of "bow hunting" clubs in BC. There are a lot of "archery" clubs, though, many of them have memberships well in excess of 200.

Is there a registry for bow hunting clubs in BC? Maybe a website listing the various bow hunting clubs?


Is there a significant difference. Don't most of the guys in the Archery clubs also bowhunt. The ones I'm familiar with, Quick Draw Archers, Fernie Archers, and Cranbrook Archery club are all basically "bowhunting" clubs as well as shooting clubs.

[Tinney]

Is there a significant difference. Don't most of the guys in the Archery clubs also bowhunt. The ones I'm familiar with, Quick Draw Archers, Fernie Archers, and Cranbrook Archery club are all basically "bowhunting" clubs as well as shooting clubs.

Way different up here. When I started shooting, the cluub was almost all competition. Now it's a lot more bowhunters. Most organized archery in BC is competition shooting

[huntwriter]

I think archers are doing this in the ubbc There are trad and compound bowhunters working together with the bcwf for better hunting opertunities.
I am happy that an organization like the UBBC has been founded and think that in the near future this organization could have a lot of potential in promoting all types of archery hunting.

I would like to join the organization as soon as I get an answer to the application I sent about a year ago and the registration confirmation to the UBBC forum.


Crossbow hunters could fit into this if they would quit sitting on the sidelines felling alienated . Crossbow hunters have been snubbed, insulted and ridiculed for so many years - and to a degree they still are – that will take much more than just a simple, “We changed our mind and accept you now.”

A few months ago I went to a bowhunter convention, not here in BC, where crossbow hunters were invited too. The few crossbow hunters that attended the convention were pretty much isolated from the others. Nobody took the time to talk to these people, let alone welcome them. In fact it was not hard to overhear some derogatory comments from diehard archers. Not exactly the climate that makes crossbow hunters feel welcome.

[Coyote]

Just so everyone knows where the UBBC stands on crossbows. They are legal archery tackle in BC and we consider those who choose to hunt with them to be bowhunters. Now that I have thrown that grenade into the frey let me elaborate. I'm old enuf to remember when bowhunting mags had articles on crossbow hunters. Very interesting they were. There were also articles on medieval crossbows. (Lordy.. are they traditional???). In otherwords they were accepted archery hunting tackle.

I believe the problem perceived by many is not the crossbow or any other weapon for that matter but the incorrect and uninformed use of them (read all weapons if you choose). We recently had a crossbow hunter at a bowhunter education session in Victoria. This guy was pleading for knowledge and someone to help him learn the right way to use it. So maybe the problem is the rest of us. Maybe we should be inviting them into the fold and helping them learn...like any other bowhunter. They won't learn nearly enough from the merchandisers selling the crossbow. Not trying to hijack the thread but to let folks know where we stand. Carry on people.

'yote

[Tinney]

Hijack away, this thread has no particular direction anymore.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I found it hard to figger out where it was going in the first place ... the gist, as i got it, was you wanted all forms of archery...Target, hunting and 3D under one umbrella group ...

ya that wont wont work as I would be damned if I would let some White pant wearing paper punchin FITA guru dictate how I am gonna hunt or shoot 3D and by the same token I doubt if that same Paper Puncher would like it it much if some Rednecked Camo Clad Foam sticker made the decitions for the FITA shoots...now throw some Feild Junkies in there and you have a mess. and Trad guys would roll over in their graves if they knew that the kids with Training wheels would make decitions regarding their sport

The BCAA takes care of the Target aspect of archery and is the target archers voice ... the UBBC is the spokesman at the governmental round table when it comes to Bowhunters advocacy ...the TBBC is Trads voice and is essientully a club in my eyes ...... all three work closey together and all 3 have crossover members .... I cant even figure out how the BCWF came into this conversation as far as I am concerned they have zero business dealing with archery in the form of target shooting ...yet in the same swipe of my keyboard lemme say that the UBBC and the BCWF should work closely with each other

[Tinney]

I found it hard to figger out where it was going in the first place ... the gist, as i got it, was you wanted all forms of archery...Target, hunting and 3D under one umbrella group ...

ya that wont wont work as I would be damned if I would let some White pant wearing paper punchin FITA guru dictate how I am gonna hunt or shoot 3D and by the same token I doubt if that same Paper Puncher would like it it much if some Rednecked Camo Clad Foam sticker made the decitions for the FITA shoots...now throw some Feild Junkies in there and you have a mess. and Trad guys would roll over in their graves if they knew that the kids with Training wheels would make decitions regarding their sport

The BCAA takes care of the Target aspect of archery and is the target archers voice ... the UBBC is the spokesman at the governmental round table when it comes to Bowhunters advocacy ...the TBBC is Trads voice and is essientully a club in my eyes ...... all three work closey together and all 3 have crossover members .... I cant even figure out how the BCWF came into this conversation as far as I am concerned they have zero business dealing with archery in the form of target shooting ...yet in the same swipe of my keyboard lemme say that the UBBC and the BCWF should work closely with each other

You're off a little bit on where I was going with this post. Back in the day. What worked for me was the BCAA and representing ALL forms of archery in BC. But then the bowhunters decide they arent happy and bam UBBC is there. Then the trad guys start whining and bam TBBC. Archery's split into three broad groups, who all shoot together anyway. Doesn't make much sense to me. Have four guys in your 3D group, and they all have different memberships. But hey, I'm just a 'whiner'

Agree, UBBC should work with the BCWF

[6616]

I found it hard to figger out where it was going in the first place ... the gist, as i got it, was you wanted all forms of archery...Target, hunting and 3D under one umbrella group ...

ya that wont wont work as I would be damned if I would let some White pant wearing paper punchin FITA guru dictate how I am gonna hunt or shoot 3D and by the same token I doubt if that same Paper Puncher would like it it much if some Rednecked Camo Clad Foam sticker made the decitions for the FITA shoots...now throw some Feild Junkies in there and you have a mess. and Trad guys would roll over in their graves if they knew that the kids with Training wheels would make decitions regarding their sport

The BCAA takes care of the Target aspect of archery and is the target archers voice ... the UBBC is the spokesman at the governmental round table when it comes to Bowhunters advocacy ...the TBBC is Trads voice and is essientully a club in my eyes ...... all three work closey together and all 3 have crossover members .... I cant even figure out how the BCWF came into this conversation as far as I am concerned they have zero business dealing with archery in the form of target shooting ...yet in the same swipe of my keyboard lemme say that the UBBC and the BCWF should work closely with each other

Althought I am not a sokesman for the BCWF, I can pretty much assure you that the BCWF will not be sticking it's nose into target archery.

[J_T]

Tinney, if you're at UNBC and you're age is appropriate to be there, you don't have a "back in the day". Only us old f's do.

The BCAA, the TBBC and the UBBC, have a very very clear understanding of each other and are working in harmony.

I agree, the BCWF, should be working with the UBBC.

[J_T]

6616,

I'm afraid you do speak as a spokesman for the BCWF. It would be nice to see others speak as well of it as you.

[6616]

6616,

I'm afraid you do speak as a spokesman for the BCWF. It would be nice to see others speak as well of it as you.

Well I better shut up then if people are going to take it that way, because I only speak my mind and my opinion, I'm not even on the BCWF board. There are several others on this forum who are equally or more qualified to pass on BCWF positions and policies.

[Onesock]

Tinney BACK IN THE DAY. For your info you were wearing diapers when the TBBC was formed. The UBBC has only been in existence for 2.5 years and have done the bowhunter a tremendous amount of good in its short life. You should support it. Someone with your drive would certainly make strong in-roads with the gov'y.

[GoatGuy]

The funny thing about it is, archery equipment is available to every one as well. So instead on poo-pooing a potential opportunity, jump on the band wagon and join in. Why would you want to remove an opportunity equally afforded to all.

I am at a loss why ?????


This is a good question.

Today we have very few hunters.

The majority of hunters we've lost are meat hunters.

Meat hunters made up and still make up the majority of the hunting population.

They:
hunt less, harvest less and have a more difficult time finding legal game.

They:
do not have extra time or money to be able to afford to pick up a bow and go hunting.

Currently our regulations cater to the avid hunter (see bowhunter, trophy hunter, hunter with $$, hunter with time).

We've alienated our largest group which has the lowest harvest per hunter and we need to realize the resource must be shared.

When a bowhunter says there's no reason why the 'average' hunter can't pick up a bow and start bowhunting I think, hmm that's an interesting concept. I try to empathize and consider where that individual is coming from. Generally that individual hunts with a compound or traditional. To be proficient with a trad bow they should be shooting every night so they need time. They must also have the cash to be able to afford the bow, on top of the rifle - lets face it for most it's an extension of the rifle hunting seaons, the extra holidays to increase the chance of success and finally a social support group of other hunters who don't criticize them at every turn. That immediately removes most hunters from the potential 'talent' pool. I think back to going to the range every afternoon in the summer to shoot the bow on top of hockey and soccer every day and wonder: does the average hunter have a mentor who will take them out to show them and do they have they time?


Now I think about my hunting experiences as a bowhunter and rifle hunter and I think: there's no reason why we couldn't have a 170 minimum on mule deer, 150 minimum on wt, 200 on moose, 330 on elk. Heck, I used to hunt for 2-3 months every year and pass up on all kinds of game. I can judge animals reasonably well and certainly wouldn't have a problem at these levels. If we did that there'd be hunting opportunity all over the province - there would be open seasons all over the province. I have no problems getting involved in that.

Then I get back to reality and realized who the majority of hunters are and realize that I'm not what the earth revolves around, but only another hunter who wants to see hunting continue so that future generations have that opportunity.

One has to consider the resource needs to be shared and that not every hunter or the majority has a surplus of time and money to invest into hunting. Not everyone has a mentor or a keen interest. If we want to see hunting continue and succeed we're going to have to make our personal interests secondary to benefit hunting.

"Why can't everybody do what I do?" isn't good enough. The reality is this isn't an opportunity equally afforded to all - this is an opportunity that's afforded to you - not others.

It's not about you or me, it's about doing what's right for hunting.

[Onesock]

I guess everyone has an opinion!!! The savior has spoken.

[sealevel]

Time !! not everyone has the time it takes to bowhunt . There would be a lot more bowhunters if we didn`t live in such a fast paced world.

[Tinney]

Tinney BACK IN THE DAY. For your info you were wearing diapers when the TBBC was formed. The UBBC has only been in existence for 2.5 years and have done the bowhunter a tremendous amount of good in its short life. You should support it. Someone with your drive would certainly make strong in-roads with the gov'y.

I was also shooting a bow in diapers :lol: Back in the day for me goes all the way back to the early 90's. How far back do we need to go to analyze this sad state of affairs? :shock:

[Kody94]

The reality is this isn't an opportunity equally afforded to all - this is an opportunity that's afforded to you - not others.


Now, no offence intended whatsoever, but while I generally agree with much of what you said in your post above, despite the fact that I think a few of your contentions are "leaps of faith" from known information and somewhat exaggerated based on my experience (edited slightly to try to better reflect my intended tone), I can't disagree more with your concluding statement.

Bowhunting opportunities as I know them, save for a couple of cases where they are implemented for safety, are incremental to sustainable GOS. They don't take anything away from non-bowhunters, and add opportunity for anyone willing and interested in participating.

I believe they are an opportunity equally provided to all. There are certainly some that truly cannot afford the equipment, but I would guess that number would be very small in this day and age. It comes down to choices. If they are unwilling to spend the money on the equipment in order to take advantage of the opportunity, that is far different than truly not being able to afford it, and not much different than just not being interested.

Although I don't have stats to prove it, I just can't fathom the bulk of the "meat hunting" contingent not having the wherewithal to take it up.

Time, now that I can see, but from my experience only (again, no stats) it seems that time is an issue across the board. I doubt that meat hunters have less time to dedicate to archery than anyone else would. Again, I think it comes down to interest and choices of what they want to do with their time. If archery/bowhunting doesn't make their list, again, thats far different than being excluded from an opportunity.

Just my humble opinion, put out there for discussion only...

Cheers,
4ster

[Kody94]

I was also shooting a bow in diapers :lol: Back in the day for me goes all the way back to the early 90's. How far back do we need to go to analyze this sad state of affairs? :shock:

Then you might have remembered that the TBBC has been around a lot longer than that. :)

I have been a member since about '96. Got signed up when I bought my first bow. The club had been going for years before I signed up....maybe 10 or 15?? Even though I probably only bowhunt 5 to 10 days a year on average, I've stayed a member because they are a great group of guys that work tirelessly for the benefit of bowhunters and many others (they make substantial contributions to RMEF, EK Big Game Club, carry over counts, elk studies, habitat restoration..etc, etc).

Anyway, just razzin' you a bit. But you'll want to get that stuff straight before you take those guys on with a beef.

Cheers
4Ster

[greybark]

;-) Good post SSSSter , Darn it Tinny take your time read it , Then let it go .
:lol: Someone arrow this post , and a bolt would be just fine !!!
Cheers

[Bow Walker]

I'm not going to pull the plug on this thread yet. There is some good information being posted here, it's still a thread with reasonable replies, Myself, Tinney, and others are learning as we go.

All of us learn as we go. As we get older and wiser our tones, stances, and degree of tolerance changes and modifies. Where else can personal beliefs and ideas be tossed around and have the rough edges worn off?

I'll just keep an eye here for a while and maybe contribute if I have something worth saying.

[Elkhound]

I'll just keep an eye here for a while and maybe contribute if I have something worth saying.

Looks like this one has all the eyes it needs.

All I can say is it is easy to bitch and moan about groups not doing what you want. I hear it all the time on some of the boards I have been on. Only answer is to get off your butt, join a group, and vote. Better yet, try and get on the board of directors and do something yourself for a change.
Volunteer your own time and effort to try and change things. Some people would gain a new respect for the people all ready doing this.

[GoatGuy]

Now, no offence intended whatsoever, but while I generally agree with much of what you said in your post above, despite the fact that I think a few of your contentions are "leaps of faith" from known information and somewhat exaggerated based on my experience (edited slightly to try to better reflect my intended tone), I can't disagree more with your concluding statement.

I suppose the question would be: does your experience include the entire hunting population or it is the people you hunt with? Have you met the people who dropped out of hunting when antler restrictions were put in or LEH was implemented? Or do you know the people who continue to hunt and thoroughly enjoy the opportunities created.



Bowhunting opportunities as I know them, save for a couple of cases where they are implemented for safety, are incremental to sustainable GOS. They don't take anything away from non-bowhunters, and add opportunity for anyone willing and interested in participating.

I agree, safety (real) is totally different.



I believe they are an opportunity equally provided to all. There are certainly some that truly cannot afford the equipment, but I would guess that number would be very small in this day and age. It comes down to choices. If they are unwilling to spend the money on the equipment in order to take advantage of the opportunity, that is far different than truly not being able to afford it, and not much different than just not being interested.

Afford doesn't always apply strictly to $.

We are however talking about the same people that won't buy a $25 elk tag and buy the cheap bullets to save a couple bucks. The same people that complain about the cost of tags when they spend $1000 to go on a hunting trip.

They're also the same people who will put in for a hunt that's 25:1 because it's close to home as opposed to driving 2 hours for a hunt that's 3:1.

That's reality for the hunting population.



Although I don't have stats to prove it, I just can't fathom the bulk of the "meat hunting" contingent not having the wherewithal to take it up.

Talk to wildlife managers in the states.



Time, now that I can see, but from my experience only (again, no stats) it seems that time is an issue across the board. I doubt that meat hunters have less time to dedicate to archery than anyone else would. Again, I think it comes down to interest and choices of what they want to do with their time. If archery/bowhunting doesn't make their list, again, thats far different than being excluded from an opportunity.

Meathunters in BC spend far less time afield and that's proven. They shoot the gun, buy a license and head afield sometimes only for a weekend.

Bowhunters in the States have been shown to spend far more time afield, are more avid, have more disposable income and higher education than the hunter population.

You're saying we aren't excluding anyone. I could say the same about a 170 min on mule deer.

Neither are beneficial to hunting.

Gonna have to be more empathetic.

[Kody94]

I suppose the question would be: does your experience include the entire hunting population or it is the people you hunt with? Have you met the people who dropped out of hunting when antler restrictions were put in or LEH was implemented? Or do you know the people who continue to hunt and thoroughly enjoy the opportunities created.

I can't say for sure if my experience is truly representative of the total spectrum of hunters out there (and who could?), but I have to think its close enough to be relevant. I have been "involved" in hunting a long time. I know a number of folks from all those categories. My Dad is one of the guys that dropped out (hasn't hunted in 10 years), partly due to antler restrictions, partly not...and he's the guy that lit the fire in me. He was a hard-core meat hunter for a lot of years. I know more like him (including a half dozen or so that have recently come back), and I know hard-core trophy hunters, and hard-core capital H-unters (ie. just love to hunt and don't really care about trophies or meat). Out of all those, some that like the status quo, some that don't....etc, etc.


Afford doesn't always apply strictly to $.

We are however talking about the same people that won't buy a $25 elk tag and buy the cheap bullets to save a couple bucks. The same people that complain about the cost of tags when they spend $1000 to go on a hunting trip.

They're also the same people who will put in for a hunt that's 25:1 because it's close to home as opposed to driving 2 hours for a hunt that's 3:1. (I am one when it comes to some draws.)

That's reality for the hunting population.

And many of those guys drive $12000 ATVs and $50000 trucks. It doesn't change my position that it comes down to choices. Everyone can participate if they should choose to. It doesn't infringe on their ability to do what they like if they don't.


Talk to wildlife managers in the states.

Any references or recommended reading for my edification?


Meathunters in BC spend far less time afield and that's proven. They shoot the gun, buy a license and head afield sometimes only for a weekend.

That is one end of the spectrum of meat hunters, I am sure. And on average I believe they do spend less time afield. But I am sure the spectrum is fairly wide, and a number of those meat hunters may be interested in bowhunting. Heck, shooting a meat doe from a tree stand is probably as quick and easy as any other method of hunting meat. One of my best buddies is an avid meat hunter. He shoots 5 does a season (in Ohio) with his bow....he hunts just long enough to get all 5 and stops. Its all about the meat. I bet he works less at it than someone chasing a 3pt elk or spike-fork moose would. I don't feel any of this is relevant to my point though.

Bowhunters in the States have been shown to spend far more time afield, are more avid, have more disposable income and higher education than the hunter population.

Won't argue with that, but that's the States. Still not sure its relevant. You are saying that bowhunters must be that way...I don't believe that to be true. There is a wide spectrum of bowhunters, even if the average is more avid. But its not salient to my point anyway...I believe its a choice, and its not an exclusion.

You're saying we aren't excluding anyone. I could say the same about a 170 min on mule deer.

I don't follow...in my mind you are comparing apples and ATVs. Bowhunting seasons as we have them are incremental. I still don't see how that is excluding anyone? It doesn't cost non-bowhunters anything in terms of their opportunity. From a conservation perspective the short archery only seasons we have are practically "free" (ie. non-consumptive).

The only affect the people that choose to take advantage of them. A 170 min on muleys would affect everyone. I just don't see the connection.

Neither are beneficial to hunting.

Still don't get it. Just don't see the downside.

Gonna have to be more empathetic.

I believe I am very empathetic. You'll have to convince me if I am not...but my mind is open to it...

I think that providing a spectrum of opportunities to a wide range of users that desire a variety of experiences is far more empathetic than trying to force everyone into a one-size-fits-all window of opportunity, particularly when in this case its about some 'feeling excluded' because they don't 'want' to participate. Those that don't feel the same way (about trying to accomodate everyone's interests) might want to think about their position and whether it truly is in the spirit of the greatest good to the maximum proportion of the hunting population.


_________________________

[J_T]

Bowhunters in the States have been shown to spend far more time afield, are more avid, Perhaps this is because there is more opportunity there? Perhaps we should consider the potential for increased hunter involvement if we expand on current bowhunting opportunities?

I'd put money on this next statement. There is a lot of talk about the increase in the elk population in the EK, guys are listening and guys from afar will be planning a hunt to the EK this fall. I'm sure, there is a large percentage that will evaluate the opportunities before them and consider that the any elk bow only season is their best opportunity.

GG, not everyone has a degree in wildlife management, but just because their passionate about their hunt and they feel a desire to express it, that shouldn't be frowned upon. I feel personally you shouldn't be looking down on them or challenging them to walk in your shoes. You are consistently full of judgement. You obviously have the time to do research, perhaps others have work, or children.

[Onesock]

Or perhaps others have the actual field experience.

[GoatGuy]

SSSter


Start here. There is very little available online but this will get you pointed in the right direction. One needs to recognize the need for bow only seasons in many parts of the states that Duda did not explain.


Bowhunting: A market study in the US

http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/amo.pdf



Bowhunting Participation, Trends, Satisfactions and Marketing Options

http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/Bowhuntingpaper-uga.pdf

I don't think the managers I've talked to from other jurisdictions want to get their ears pulled.

[Kody94]

Thanks GG. Haven't opened them up but I'll definitely take a look at them, if I haven't read them at some point already.

Cheers,
4ster

[GoatGuy]

Perhaps this is because there is more opportunity there? Perhaps we should consider the potential for increased hunter involvement if we expand on current bowhunting opportunities?

I'd put money on this next statement. There is a lot of talk about the increase in the elk population in the EK, guys are listening and guys from afar will be planning a hunt to the EK this fall. I'm sure, there is a large percentage that will evaluate the opportunities before them and consider that the any elk bow only season is their best opportunity.

GG, not everyone has a degree in wildlife management, but just because their passionate about their hunt and they feel a desire to express it, that shouldn't be frowned upon. I feel personally you shouldn't be looking down on them or challenging them to walk in your shoes. You are consistently full of judgement. You obviously have the time to do research, perhaps others have work, or children.

Your perception.


Different people, different expectations. People with a background should be questioned when they put up opinions, particularly if they haven't collected available information. People with experience should also be questioned and asked to support arguments. People should also be asking questions.

If hunters don't ask tough questions of themselves and their role they'll end up with a diminished voice, out-competed with other stakeholders, and running behind the bus instead of driving it. Listening to the same campfire coffee discussion for 30 years certainly hasn't helped any of us. Like reading an LEH thread.:roll:

An unfounded 'perhaps' is only a short hop from not knowing.

I'm generally to the point.

Supporting an argument is part of life. I suppose that's part of the challenge and part of the effort that should be put into forming an opinion. We don't do ourselves any favours with anything short of that.

[J_T]

Or "perhaps" is based on one fact that I've read the AMO insights into bowhunters 8 years ago (approximately) and it at that time made an impression on me.

I understand credibility is only based on supportive research with you. As you mature, you will eventually realize, life provides us with many lessons. Research is but one part. Have you perhaps read the document, "Bowhunting, a Seldom Used Wildlife Management Tool In BC" written by Jim Renn? I'm guessing 5 or 6 years ago.

When we read, our perception on things might change. I believe we don't always have to cite verbatim to make a point. We are on a chat site, not, a court of law. Maybe some of us are just now doing our research, while others are much further along. Just a statement of question.

To the point, this is not a site where decisions are made. Quite frankly. But people should be provided an opportunity to share their thoughts, experiences and impressions. I'm very interested in learning from those that want to share an experience.

[GoatGuy]

I understand credibility is only based on supportive research with you. As you mature, you will eventually realize, life provides us with many lessons. Research is but one part.

As I said depends on the person and the background. Expectations are much higher for somebody with a degree in biology or post sec in biology.


Have you perhaps read the document, "Bowhunting, a Seldom Used Wildlife Management Tool In BC" written by Jim Renn? I'm guessing 5 or 6 years ago.

yes I have.




When we read, our perception on things might change. I believe we don't always have to cite verbatim to make a point. We are on a chat site, not, a court of law. Maybe some of us are just now doing our research, while others are much further along. Just a statement of question.

To the point, this is not a site where decisions are made. Quite frankly. But people should be provided an opportunity to share their thoughts, experiences and impressions. I'm very interested in learning from those that want to share an experience.

No doubt people should share their experiences.

I'm hoping that we can raise the bar when it comes to information and education of resident hunters. We won't do that unless we have and make use of all the information available to us.

[trapperdan2061]

This is a loaded question to me and I can not answer it as I belive that there should be one group that represents all of us, hunters of any type, fishing people, trappers and all gun owners.

The anti's will continue to make headway in this world because they keep us devide and fighting amongst ourselves.

It is shown right here on the groupe with post like Are crossbows archery?? You bet we all bart of a brotherhood and need to unite.

DEVIDE AND CONQUER

I have been preaching this for year and we don't seem to get it.

If all the combined drive of every outdoor sportsman orginazartion and the firearms groups were to join as one voice and one force I wonder what would happen.

So maybe the poll should be asking if we want to all join together and be ONE VOICE and ONE FORCE ???????

[Tinney]

This is a loaded question to me and I can not answer it as I belive that there should be one group that represents all of us, hunters of any type, fishing people, trappers and all gun owners.

The anti's will continue to make headway in this world because they keep us devide and fighting amongst ourselves.

DEVIDE AND CONQUER

I have been preaching this for year and we don't seem to get it.

If all the combined drive of every outdoor sportsman orginazartion and the firearms groups were to join as one voice and one force I wonder what would happen.

So maybe the poll should be asking if we want to all join together and be ONE VOICE and ONE FORCE ???????

Dan, the question is not in regards to hunting. The question is in regards to archery in its many forms, being continually split up and divided by infighting and "purist" attitudes.

[trapperdan2061]

Like you said being continually split up and divided by INFIGHTING and "purist" attitudes.

Get everyone on the same TEAM.

[Tinney]

Like you said being continually split up and divided by INFIGHTING and "purist" attitudes.

Get everyone on the same TEAM.

Yup. Bowhunters hate target shooters and trad shooters hate crossbows. Sad state of affairs