Letter to Editor From Guide

[4 point]

Guide outfitters allocation misunderstoodBy: Kamloops This Week (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/author/staff1/) in Letters (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/category/opinion/letters/), Opinion (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/category/opinion/) March 3, 2015 1 Comment (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/guide-outfitters-allocation-misunderstood/#comments) 247 Views

Editor:
Recent derogatory comments in the news and social media made about the guide-outfitting industry, after Minister Steve Thompson’s decision on the big-game allocation policy, are appalling and damaging to the image of the B.C. hunting community.
The policy deals with the split in the annual allowable harvest of big-game animals between resident hunters and guide outfitters.
This policy deals only with individual game populations that need additional regulation for conservation purposes — limited-entry hunting for residents and quota for guides. This policy does not restrict resident hunters’ opportunity to hunt within the general open season, the majority of big-game hunting in B.C.
In 2007, as the government began phasing in a new policy, the outfitting industry lost 30 per cent of its allocation split due largely to the introduction of a complicated algebraic-allocation matrix.
As the process moved forward, it became obvious the outfitters were taking a substantial reduction even though the intention was to cause very little change to either group. To date, the minister’s decision has returned to the outfitting industry 3.5 per cent of the approximately 35 per cent that was lost.
The outfitters have not gained significant portions of allocation; in fact, allocation has been reduced significantly since 2007.
It has been suggested B.C. guides have a much higher share of the wildlife than guides in other provinces. The truth is they are very similar to neighbouring jurisdictions; however, let us also consider for a moment the opportunity B.C. residents have.
I am not aware of any jurisdiction on Earth in which resident hunters have an opportunity similar to this. Every year in general open seasons, with no draws required, B.C. resident hunters can harvest one of three species of wild sheep — stone, Rocky Mountain or California — mountain goat, mountain caribou, bull moose, bull elk, black-tail deer (15), black bears (2), cougars and three of any combination of mule deer or whitetail deer, wolves, bobcats, lynx and wolverine.
This is a total of 334 days to hunt 37 animals of 16 species of big game in our province every year.
These opportunities are not available to guide outfitters because we can only hunt those species within our individual territory boundaries.
Are these residents complaining about guide allocation out of ignorance of the general open season hunting opportunity that is available to them, or is this complaint a desire to eliminate the guide industry in B.C.?
Fellow hunters, guide outfitters are not the thieves or the bad guys. There is a gross misinterpretation of the outfitters share.
All user groups need to check our conscience and ask the great creator to give us direction on how to share the greatest resource we have in our backyards.
Our grandchildren deserve the same opportunity we have had.
Bruce Ambler
guide outfitter for 25 years
Clinton
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[luckofthedraw]

Neither of my letters to the same editor have been printed yet.

[BearSupreme]

They took our jeeerrbbs!!!

[adriaticum]

Just a bunch of useless babble.
One can turn that around in his face any time of the day.

[Whonnock Boy]

Up to 40% of our allocated species is going to guides, and their foreign clients. They still have GOS the same as us. Why don't they mention that????

[bandit]

The reason guides don't hunt half the animals available in the province is not because of regulations or quotas. It's because noone in their right mind would pay $6-7-8,000 to hunt a black bear or a black tail deer.

[Paulyman]

I met the person who wrote this article on the ferry home yesterday, he was at the rally in Victoria and approached our group to talk to us about the allocation dispute. on a personal level I quite like Bruce, he seems like a hard working guide that puts a lot of work into his territory.

My take on our conversation is that he and much of the guiding industry wants us resident hunters to be content with the fact that with such an abundant amount of wildlife in this province we have unlimited opportunity here. He atempted to drive home the fact that guides only get 8% overall if you take into consideration all seasons including general open season and leh. I pointed out to him that I didn't believe that 8 % should be the cream of the crop leh tags, I suggested that 8 % of everything overall would be quite acceptable.

I made myself as open minded and tried to see things from his point of view, but I think he'd agree we were miles apart. At the end of the ferry ride he gave me his email and also invited me to the goabc convention coming up in March. He invited me because of my comment that "I'd like to see this dispute resolved and would love to get inside their meetings to see things from their perspective"

In the end I think this big mess is gonna take a few good people sitting down once again and realize what's on the line. The GOABC doesen't want the NDP or the Greens getting in and unfortunately that's quite possibly the direction this is going for them, maybe, maybe not, but if I was Scott Ellis I'd be sitting down with residents as soon as possible before this gets out of hand, at this point we've lost as much as were gonna lose, he and the GOABC are the ones with the most to lose. despite what guides think about residents intentions most of us would like to see the hard working guides thrive in BC, just with fair splits.

I mentioned to Bruce that residents are upset that they weren't incuded in the bargaining process and if there's a lot of "misinformation" out there that they were going to have to excuse us as guys like myself have only emmersed oursleves in the political side of wildlife managment post Dec 10th, had we been included things we'd be a little more up to speed as far as the politics go.

One more thing, I am not sure why the GOABC keeps issuing these "facts" articles on their web pages and in newspapers, in case the GOABC hasn't noticed the general public isn't voting on anyting here, nor are they paying attention for the most part. This fight is between the govt, resident hunters and the GOABC. The resident hunters campaign is to make the GOABC "pay for what they've done" if I was the GOABC I'd sit down with some resident hunters and start talking...

Scott Ellis, I am willing to meet and discuss this if you'd entertain that idea.

Paul

[Apolonius]

Eliminate Guides....period.

[Cub Driver]

I spoke with Bruce at the Victoria rally. He may have been hit harder in his region however I told him the 90/10 slit stands. He was unaware that after the 2007 policy was not implemented that at BCWF pasted a resolution that if the policy was not implimented then the only outcome would be 90/10 split. I also informed him that the Deputy Minister wrote a letter on behalf of the minister to the BCWF that the policy would be fully implemented in 2012. The guides should consider what they wish for. I also informed him that his business model is flawed. The majority of the high value species, with a 60/40 splits make many other guide areas very valuable for resale. Sucks to be him. I also reminded him that guide areas where (allocated) given to guides in 1961at no costs. Years back when RAMS was started the was some discussion with Govt about sale of guide areas. One thought was that the government should have three commercial appraisals done, average them, and the Government should buy them back, and resell to a BC resident. Probably made to much sense so the idea did not catch on. Bruce also had concerns about increasing access and I suggested that that is a local concern and should be discussed with user groups locally. He was also handing out information sheets that has similar info that was included in his article. GAOBC spin. He was not aware of the sheep concern in region 7B, that the regional manager took Stones sheep of the category A list and that the guides harvested 98 sheep in 2014 (49.4 % of harvest) and residents harvested 100 sheep. This has been going on for more that 40 years. Later during the rally he spoke with me and said he stopped handing out his information because he was unaware of all the issues with sheep allocation. The regional manager set AAH for sheep in region 7B at 250. This is probably high but would prevent perceived guide over harvest data. Regional manager does not want to share individual guide quotas, even though sheep are off the A list. It is a sad state of affairs when a public resource is given at nor direct costs to the guides and the information is not public.

[ruger#1]

Give thumbs up to the two comments in the letter.

[Apolonius]

Every resident hunter should hunt guide areas.Take your friends/fellow hunters,kill anything that is legal.No regrets.Guides and their foreign hunters should see more RH than game.Make your self visible and actively compete with them.If there are ten rams in that guide area ,kill them first.Hit them hard.No more nice playing.

[Paulyman]

Every resident hunter should hunt guide areas.Take your friends/fellow hunters,kill anything that is legal.No regrets.Guides and their foreign hunters should see more RH than game.Make your self visible and actively compete with them.If there are ten rams in that guide area ,kill them first.Hit them hard.No more nice playing.

Some guys at the rally were talking about that, some publication or something that details tenured areas. Not so much to hunt everything, but just to focus hunting in tenured areas. Clients looking for a guided hunt hate knowing an area has high resident pressure.

[Sniperdan]

Why would a guide think that I care about his business? If his business model is to profit from my loss, then he is correct, I do NOT care if his business fails. I don't hunt in other provinces or countries. I hunt my own province, not for trophies but for the meat it puts in my freezer. I truly believe our wildlife is not for sale and all foreign trophy hunting should be banned. The only way I see a fair allocation process is if foreigners have to apply under the same odds as the rest of us each year (except their LEH cards should be much more expensive) and then if drawn, they would have to hire an outfitter to guide them. We all know how corrupt that system would become though don't we? The gov would be able to hide the odds and tip them in favour of the foreign hunters.

[HarryToolips]

They took our jeeerrbbs!!!
LOL back to the pile!!

[Gateholio]

Where is Bruce Amblers area? I like the Clinton area. I should hunt there more often.

[j270wsm]

Heard it again today, guys commenting about guides cabins and one even said he be willing to pay the fine for shooting a short ram. His theory was if I shoot it now they can't in 3-4yrs.

These aren't my thoughts or hunting partners, but it shows how pissed some people are

[Apolonius]

You don't have to shoot illegal/short rams.Residents get lots of tags.If some group goes at a certain area that has 10 legal rams and shoots all of them,totally legal ,then let the guide kill the short or questionable rams.Share info with others and let the games begin.Even publish maps.Target certain guides.Make your presence know to guides and their clients!!!!No east Kootenay guy should let a chance to hunt sheep/elk, go unused.If you can't make it ,give some heads up to others.Once word gets down south about the "new" conditions up here.......

[ruger#1]

Where is Bruce Amblers area? I like the Clinton area. I should hunt there more often. Bighorn sheep. Moose, Mule and whitetails. Bears. I hunted up there lots. Some big deer in that area.

[guest]

Eliminate Guides....period.

No ..... That is Not the agenda ....... There is a viable industry in BC ....... Just not to the degree that this new policy is setting.

CT

[Paulyman]

No ..... That is Not the agenda ....... There is a viable industry in BC ....... Just not to the degree that this new policy is setting.

CT

Agreed, it's in everyone's best interest to see all sectors of business in British Columbia do well. I think we need to see a split in allocations that doesn't give guide Outfitters such a high percentage of the special tag animals and instead a more diverse portfolio of animals from all categories.

[LBM]

You don't have to shoot illegal/short rams.Residents get lots of tags.If some group goes at a certain area that has 10 legal rams and shoots all of them,totally legal ,then let the guide kill the short or questionable rams.Share info with others and let the games begin.Even publish maps.Target certain guides.Make your presence know to guides and their clients!!!!No east Kootenay guy should let a chance to hunt sheep/elk, go unused.If you can't make it ,give some heads up to others.Once word gets down south about the "new" conditions up here.......
Well hopefully sheep in the east kootenay goes on LEH before all the resident hunters head out to kill everything that's legal as you have planned. To bad they are like that with no conservation in mind.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Well hopefully sheep in the east kootenay goes on LEH before all the resident hunters head out to kill everything that's legal as you have planned. To bad they are like that with no conservation in mind.

Some of the region 4 outfitters were already doing that.

[LBM]

Some of the region 4 outfitters were already doing that.

More reason for LEH then if some areas have already had this done. Which outfitters are you talking about.

[Apolonius]

Guide outfitting as it is today ,and their plans going to be viable only at your expence.When I said, if there are ten rams to be harvested ,it would be better if residents got them.Or is the opinion of some posters ,we should stay out of the mountains ,so our esteemed visitors/hunters have a better time???It is my opinion thats the only way to respond to them and their demands...get out there.As for going to LEH.....maybe half way there.Look at Spences bridge,one draw now....more to come.It is my belief all this is part of a master plan to take away from us for their benefit.Strangers in your own Country.And is not only Ellis and the minister involved.There are more people that betrayed the RH.Like it or not politicians/beuraucrats are selling everything to the highest bidder.See Canadian passport....1,000,000.I think our responses to them are passive/polite and it does nothing.Imagine if Cristy Clark told the locals to cut down their water consumption so California could have more four water.Well far fetched????The responce would be a little different.And us Hunters give the podium to SCOTT ELLIS in front of the legislature.I hope they provided him with a glass of water....he could choke ....and sue you.That was embarrassing to me.Did ELLIS give you a voice in his dealings with the government?????Thats why i think the whole thing has no direction and if new blood doesn't come up to take over the leadership all future generations will pay for that.Just look at some fringe groups with only a fraction of our membership....governments scared shitless.Do you think Ellis would be able to even say a word in a rainbow conservation rally,if he was their opponent????You want to win???? ...take a page out of their Manuals.Do you think Natives got where they are today by being polite?

[steel_ram]

If it's LEH for residents then the guides should get zero. The limited surplus animals are the property of the people of B.C. When any other resource dwindles, people employed by that resource have to adapt or move on. Not take from others.

[bridger]

If it's LEH for residents then the guides should get zero. The limited surplus animals are the property of the people of B.C. When any other resource dwindles, people employed by that resource have to adapt or move on. Not take from others.

Simple answer is not to accept leh to help guides! LEH is not inevitable and we have to quit accepting it as first choice

[BimmerBob]

Simple answer is not to accept leh to help guides! LEH is not inevitable and we have to quit accepting it as first choice

I don't think we should EVER accept LEH, if there is not enough game animals for a General Open Season then it should be closed to hunting that species until the population has recovered enough to support GOS. LEH is not a wildlife management tool, it is a hunter management tool and a way for the wildlife managers to avoid doing their jobs while at the same time generating additional revenue through the lottery sale of LEH Entries.

I for one will NEVER buy another LEH Entry and if all resident hunters did the same, we may be able to make some headway in wildlife management.

[Argali]

If it's LEH for residents then the guides should get zero. The limited surplus animals are the property of the people of B.C. When any other resource dwindles, people employed by that resource have to adapt or move on. Not take from others.

Keep in mind that the "people of B.C." are not all resident hunters. In fact, only about 3% of them are hunters with maybe another 3% family/friends that sympathize. Probably, at least 15% are rabid anti-hunters that simply hate all hunting. The remaining 80% or so of the population have sympathies somewhere between but have no intention of ever hunting. They receive no benefit from having "their" surplus animals shot by residents.

In fact, some of the non-hunting population could easliy be convinced that it may better for non-residents to shoot more animals because they pay much higher fees/licenses. There are more people on welfare than hunters in B.C. Imagine if some dolt proposed that non-residents hunter numbers and fees could be increased dramatically, with proceeds going to the poor people on welfare? By selling tags/licenses to the highest bidders, it would relatively easy to raise at least $25M - or an extra $200 or so for all welfare recipients at Christmas, all thanks to putting tags on auction instead of selling them so cheaply to residents. That would appeal to more than 3% of the population.

Or perhaps, some might prefer that only the FN shoot moose, elk, and deer with meat to be sold a supermarkets for the benefit of everyone that wishes to purchase that fine organic meat for their families. If game were slaughtered systematically, the meat would get to market a lot cheaper than what most individual hunters spend if you factor in gas, food, time, and depreciation of vehicles and equipment. Sustainable jobs for the FN, meat for the public.

I think that we have to keep in mind that what is best for resident hunters is not necessarily what the majority of the population (non-hunters, anti-hunters) think is best for them.

[ruger#1]

I still love Crusties campaign speel the best..."families first", she never said what families or what she was going to do to/with them: now we all know! Sounds more like foreigners first. There is a 52 two year old refugee that is wining that she has to live on $1100 a month. While our seniors and War vets . The people that fought for our freedoms are making a lot less. Bleeding heart Liberals. Federal and provincial.

[ruger#1]

I for one will NEVER buy another LEH Entry and if all resident hunters did the same, we may be able to make some headway in wildlife management.
Then that would just leave more for the guides. Wouldn't it?

[BimmerBob]

Then that would just leave more for the guides. Wouldn't it?

How would the number increase because of this? X% of the total available is still x%, it does not change for the current year although if there are more animals due to population growth for the next years then it would increase with the larger number of animals available but the wildlife would be increasing in numbers and that really is the objective (well that and to move to GOS).

[ruger#1]

How would the number increase because of this? X% of the total available is still x%, it does not change for the current year although if there are more animals due to population growth for the next years then it would increase with the larger number of animals available but the wildlife would be increasing in numbers and that really is the objective (well that and to move to GOS).

Sorry BoB. I keep thinking they are on LEH also.

[LBM]

Simple answer is not to accept leh to help guides! LEH is not inevitable and we have to quit accepting it as first choice

Im not interested in LEH to help guides, it would be to help sheep and if managing hunters helps sheep or other animals then its a good thing.
Stone sheep steve I will ask again which region 4 outfitters are killing all the legal sheep in there area?

[Fisher-Dude]

Im not interested in LEH to help guides, it would be to help sheep and if managing hunters helps sheep or other animals then its a good thing.
Stone sheep steve I will ask again which region 4 outfitters are killing all the legal sheep in there area?

Who has the outfit on Mt Broadwood? You seem to be a self-proclaimed expert on all things region 4.

[Elkaholic]

Who has the outfit on Mt Broadwood? You seem to be a self-proclaimed expert on all things region 4.

I've been thinking the same thing. Should change their handle to "region 4 god", I am glad somebody called him/her on it.

[LBM]

I've been thinking the same thing. Should change their handle to "region 4 god", I am glad somebody called him/her on it.

If I was god sheep would be on LEH. You ever figure out how to stop your dogs from getting breed.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Im not interested in LEH to help guides, it would be to help sheep and if managing hunters helps sheep or other animals then its a good thing.
Stone sheep steve I will ask again which region 4 outfitters are killing all the legal sheep in there area?

It was discussed in another thread. Can't remember if a name was made public or not??
The high quota for some GO's came from over-inflated population estimates.....counting sheep on mines, in National Parks and sheep that had dual citizenship in Alberta.

This was most likely WHY Thomson originally made it GOS for outfitters in Region 4 with no quotas when he released his Dec 10 allocations. Figured since they were already shooting most of the legal rams, might as well keep letting them do it:confused:.

[steel_ram]

In fact, some of the non-hunting population could easliy be convinced that it may better for non-residents to shoot more animals because they pay much higher fees/licenses.

I wonder what dollar value one trophy animal has, guide compared to resident, when you consider success rates? Most resident hunters don't have the luxury of full time scouts, aerial recon. etc. so I'm guessing we're getting a lot more "hunts" per animal. Add to that, all money generated stays here. Equipment purchases, taxidermy etc.

[bigdogeh]

I wonder what dollar value one trophy animal has, guide compared to resident, when you consider success rates? Most resident hunters don't have the luxury of full time scouts, aerial recon. etc. so I'm guessing we're getting a lot more "hunts" per animal. Add to that, all money generated stays here. Equipment purchases, taxidermy etc.

and it's not so much the dollar value as it is the experience. the experience for your or my son or daughter,
that's priceless.
that's what really counts.

I'll be d*mned if I'm going to let them take that away.

[Elkaholic]

If I was god sheep would be on LEH. You ever figure out how to stop your dogs from getting breed.

If you know me so well you should know I have two litters on the way, need a pup or two?

[The Hermit]

I don't think we should EVER accept LEH, if there is not enough game animals for a General Open Season then it should be closed to hunting that species until the population has recovered enough to support GOS. LEH is not a wildlife management tool, it is a hunter management tool and a way for the wildlife managers to avoid doing their jobs while at the same time generating additional revenue through the lottery sale of LEH Entries.

I for one will NEVER buy another LEH Entry and if all resident hunters did the same, we may be able to make some headway in wildlife management.

Bimmer - I agree that LEH should only be used as a conservation measure. However, there is a logical conservative middle ground... that being before an all out closure we could hold bow only seasons. This would provide opportunity for anyone that wanted to hunt to pick up a bow, learn to shoot it, and go hunting with minimal risk to populations due to the greatly reduced success rates. Its not all about killing for most of us right?

[LBM]

If you know me so well you should know I have two litters on the way, need a pup or two?

Don't no you at all but in the last couple years you have a couple accidental litters now have 2 more some might say that's a mill.
How many dogs does one need.
You then complain about a declining cat population, my guess most cats are killed by the use of hounds, so by you selling dogs in
essence you are contributing to what you are complaining about.
Thank you for the offer but I do not need a dog. I would suggest you follow Bob Barkers advice.

[LBM]

Bimmer - I agree that LEH should only be used as a conservation measure. However, there is a logical conservative middle ground... that being before an all out closure we could hold bow only seasons. This would provide opportunity for anyone that wanted to hunt to pick up a bow, learn to shoot it, and go hunting with minimal risk to populations due to the greatly reduced success rates. Its not all about killing for most of us right?
That's right its not about killing, go LEH then people can hunt with any legal method they choose.

[argyle1]

people who talk that way are a problem

[Apolonius]

We advanced all the way where we are now.....to go back to bows and making our own arrows.Sounds a bit strange to me.And LEH is used as a controlling tool for harvest and a milk cow for the government.Their inability to manage and make the tough decisions reflects all that.Meanwhile the resident hunter pays the price and the guides get rewarded.Crazy world we live in.

[Elkaholic]

Don't no you at all but in the last couple years you have a couple accidental litters now have 2 more some might say that's a mill.
How many dogs does one need.
You then complain about a declining cat population, my guess most cats are killed by the use of hounds, so by you selling dogs in
essence you are contributing to what you are complaining about.
Thank you for the offer but I do not need a dog. I would suggest you follow Bob Barkers advice.

I actually dont have any litters on the way, My female has been spayed for some time now. So you can rest easy there LBM. I was yanking your chain.

[f350ps]

And another well written letter from the GOABC that includes percentages and numbers. The way I see this is, they are kicking our a$$es because of these numbers, the general public is eating this up and all the BCWF is saying is "don't believe those numbers, it's way more than that" yet I've yet to see actual numbers. I've asked for those numbers several times and so far nothing, hard to believe with the amount of "facts and numbers" guys on here. K

[LYKTOHUNT]

Where is Bruce Amblers area? I like the Clinton area. I should hunt there more often.
Why not , that is only a short trip over the hill for you, I plan on heading that way this coming year myself

[bigwhiteys]

And another well written letter from the GOABC that includes percentages and numbers. The way I see this is, they are kicking our a$$es because of these numbers, the general public is eating this up and all the BCWF is saying is "don't believe those numbers, it's way more than that" yet I've yet to see actual numbers. I've asked for those numbers several times and so far nothing, hard to believe with the amount of "facts and numbers" guys on here. K

Yep, pretty much. I've seen nothing concrete as far as numbers go from either side. An official infographic of some sort, signed off by all parties as an accurate representation of the situation would be a start. Talk to 5 hunters you'll get 5 different responses.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Stu is not that far off, even though the "numbers" seem to fade back and forth the fact is 55% of the allocated animals are given to the FN's.This is crazy, there is no way to track what they kill and eat let a lone leave in the bush.
Other provinces have the FN harvest under control.we don't. Harvesting deer and moose for dog food doesn't seem right to me. It would be interesting to see how many provinces give 55% to the FN's then divide up the rest 90/10. I would be willing to bet none.

[srupp]

Hmm 55 % of the game for 2 % of the population is bullshit.yes dog food, selling, waste.._=÷=__=#_!#?_#45?!,,!!
The rest of Maitlands?............hmmmmmmmm
Cheers

Good points Doug

[chilcotin hillbilly]

BC has roughly 5% FN population. That being said many of those are 1/8th native or less. My friends boy is 1/16 and has a card. Out of the 5% how many live in cities? How many never hunt or fish?
The waste we see out here from FN harvest is incredible. Just go a few days after "the gathering" and look for ravens and you will see first hand the waste.

[The Hermit]

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BimmerBob http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1613939#post1613939)
I don't think we should EVER accept LEH, if there is not enough game animals for a General Open Season then it should be closed to hunting that species until the population has recovered enough to support GOS. LEH is not a wildlife management tool, it is a hunter management tool and a way for the wildlife managers to avoid doing their jobs while at the same time generating additional revenue through the lottery sale of LEH Entries.

I for one will NEVER buy another LEH Entry and if all resident hunters did the same, we may be able to make some headway in wildlife management.


Bimmer - I agree that LEH should only be used as a conservation measure. However, there is a logical conservative middle ground... that being before an all out closure we could hold bow only seasons. This would provide opportunity for anyone that wanted to hunt to pick up a bow, learn to shoot it, and go hunting with minimal risk to populations due to the greatly reduced success rates. Its not all about killing for most of us right?


That's right its not about killing, go LEH then people can hunt with any legal method they choose.

That is exactly what the guides want to continue happening... far fewer residents actually get a draw and go hunting! A bow only season doesn't stop anyone from taking up the bow or crossbow and heading out. Try it you might just like it!

[Wild one]

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BimmerBob http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1613939#post1613939)
I don't think we should EVER accept LEH, if there is not enough game animals for a General Open Season then it should be closed to hunting that species until the population has recovered enough to support GOS. LEH is not a wildlife management tool, it is a hunter management tool and a way for the wildlife managers to avoid doing their jobs while at the same time generating additional revenue through the lottery sale of LEH Entries.

I for one will NEVER buy another LEH Entry and if all resident hunters did the same, we may be able to make some headway in wildlife management.


Bimmer - I agree that LEH should only be used as a conservation measure. However, there is a logical conservative middle ground... that being before an all out closure we could hold bow only seasons. This would provide opportunity for anyone that wanted to hunt to pick up a bow, learn to shoot it, and go hunting with minimal risk to populations due to the greatly reduced success rates. Its not all about killing for most of us right?



That is exactly what the guides want to continue happening... far fewer residents actually get a draw and go hunting! A bow only season doesn't stop anyone from taking up the bow or crossbow and heading out. Try it you might just like it!


You speak truth that used correctly archery season add opportunity combined with both GOS and or LEH it does not take away opportunity but only adds to it. This is not about taking away the chance to hunt with a rifle it is adding an opportunity that can be given with less impact on wildlife numbers do to success rates. Straight LEH waiting in hopes of a chance or the ability to hunt every year with a weapon restriction well waiting for your chance at LEH. No brainer to me

Many think when talking archery season people archers are trying to take away their opportunity. This is not the case if used correctly and all users should be considered and given opportunity.

I am starting to feel like a broken record but southern region 6 is a good example of how using a combo of LEH/archery/GOS is being used effectively in BC. Using special weapon season in combination with LEH and/or GOS is a common effective system used in most of North America. It is under-utilized here in exchange of LEH only and pint restrictions

[bigdogeh]

Yep, pretty much. I've seen nothing concrete as far as numbers go from either side. An official infographic of some sort, signed off by all parties as an accurate representation of the situation would be a start. Talk to 5 hunters you'll get 5 different responses.


20 to 40% isn't a number?

If you have a pie and someone takes a slice of it that's 20% or 40% I can see that fairly easily...
some might even say that if 1 person were going to take a 20 or 40% slice of that pie and 300 people got to share the rest, that that 1 person might be looked at as being a little bit greedy. GOA .3% RH 102,000 and growing.

[steel_ram]

There is certainly a few scenario's were LEH is a must. Example: Vancouver Island Elk. The herds are healthy and expanding, however the are also accessible and a relatively small geographic area. A general open season would be a disaster. I could see the same for many, "one mountain", goat and sheep hunts.

I still believe the resident hunters demand should be met as best as possible before we sell any of these precious animals to foreigners.

[f350ps]

20 to 40% isn't a number?

If you have a pie and someone takes a slice of it that's 20% or 40% I can see that fairly easily...
some might even say that if 1 person were going to take a 20 or 40% slice of that pie and 300 people got to share the rest, that that 1 person might be looked at as being a little bit greedy. GOA .3% RH 102,000 and growing.
So in essence what you're saying is we're arguing over 60 animals then, right? K

[boxhitch]

BC has roughly 5% FN population. That being said many of those are 1/8th native or less. My friends boy is 1/16 and has a card. Out of the 5% how many live in cities? How many never hunt or fish?
The waste we see out here from FN harvest is incredible. Just go a few days after "the gathering" and look for ravens and you will see first hand the waste.So what is your real complaint ? The fact over half of the game is set aside for FN or that there are not enough FN hunters to utilize that many animals resulting in more animals left standing for other hunters ?

The song about FN's hunting ethics is getting old too . I haven't witnessed anything contrary with the FN hunters I have run into , but I have seen problems with some white trash . More smoke to confuse the issues.

[bigdogeh]

So in essence what you're saying is we're arguing over 60 animals then, right? K


lol, yeah, right...:roll: keep drinkin the koolaid...

[f350ps]

lol, yeah, right...:roll: keep drinkin the koolaid...
Okay give me the actual number then! If you've been following along the BCWF signed off on an agreement in 07' that was a hell of a lot more than a 90-10 split and everybody except the GOABC was happy with it. Now with this new legislation the GOABC is claiming that it only equates to 60 more animals. Do you have the numbers to disprove their claim? And don't give me percentages, hard numbers of actual animals! I'm all ears! K

[bigdogeh]

lol, are you sure your names not steve thompson? that's about all he had to say over and over again march 02 at the legislature. why not show us the formula that he's used to come up with 60 animals. it's been requested and he hasn't come out with it. pretty easy to put a number out there if you don't have to show how you got it... there have been more than a few examples in this forum that have blown the 60 animals figure out of the water... but sorry, not going to argue over numbers like that when the issue goes far beyond numbers...

[chilcotin hillbilly]

So what is your real complaint ? The fact over half of the game is set aside for FN or that there are not enough FN hunters to utilize that many animals resulting in more animals left standing for other hunters ?

The song about FN's hunting ethics is getting old too . I haven't witnessed anything contrary with the FN hunters I have run into , but I have seen problems with some white trash . More smoke to confuse the issues.


My complaint is the waste, you don't get out much I suspect at least not out this way.

No control on cow and doe harvest is huge factor in the decline of wildlife in region 5.

MOE with no idea how much game is harvested by FN is huge problem.

[Buck]

Would be nice to know how much FN harvest.Seems to be a power move for them not to participate.

[f350ps]

My complaint is the waste, you don't get out much I suspect at least not out this way.

No control on cow and doe harvest is huge factor in the decline of wildlife in region 5.

MOE with no idea how much game is harvested by FN is huge problem.
BINGO!!!! All this BS is over an alleged 60 animals, for argument sakes let's call it 200 animals and yet our FN's are killing animals year round and nobody has a clue how many yet the gov. biologists keep coming up with new LEH numbers every year with no clue what's going on out there. K

[f350ps]

Would be nice to know how much FN harvest.Seems to be a power move for them not to participate.
Why would they participate, the got it made! K

[Apolonius]

What do the native thing has to do with the allocation?The split of what is left is our concern right now.And no,i am not supporting what they do.

[btridge]

Funny how the GOABC and the government want to legislate PERCENTAGES of up to 40%, but only want to talk about the number of animals without giving us the formula they use. and then they get upset because we throw the percentages back at them...sounds to me that they like talking in circles.

[Gamebuster]

My complaint is the waste, you don't get out much I suspect at least not out this way.

No control on cow and doe harvest is huge factor in the decline of wildlife in region 5.

MOE with no idea how much game is harvested by FN is huge problem.

what are you basing your conclusions on? Observations of native kills? How do you know that they are extensive enough to cause declines?

I dont think it's that simple.

why aren't the collared moose out in your neck of the woods dying, at least that's what I've heard, if they are all being killed off and causing population declines?

another thing, my native buddies up here tell me there's fewer hunters in the bands than there used to be so why all of the sudden are they having such a large impact?

i think there's more to the story.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

what are you basing your conclusions on? Observations of native kills? How do you know that they are extensive enough to cause declines?

I dont think it's that simple.

why aren't the collared moose out in your neck of the woods dying, at least that's what I've heard, if they are all being killed off and causing population declines?

another thing, my native buddies up here tell me there's fewer hunters in the bands than there used to be so why all of the sudden are they having such a large impact?

i think there's more to the story.

the bull cow ration is out of wack here in the West Chilcotin, 7 out of ten in many areas. Since there is no cow season here, and wolves don't pick and choose what they eat, chances are there is another factor you must be missing. Everyone at the MOE know it but won't talk about. it.

Giving the MOE credit they are spending time at the reserves teaching the FN's the impact of killing cows. One FN In Aniham Lake claimed at the meeting he killed over 60 moose in the past year, rubbing it into the speakers face.
YOu still think there is not a problem?

[boxhitch]

why aren't the collared moose out in your neck of the woods dying, at least that's what I've heard, if they are all being killed off and causing population declines?.Closer to Kamloops too.
But the collar is probably the deterrent , doesn't mean other cows aren't being targetted. The killing of cows is well known and is wide spread , maybe not to the level of some urban myths though. Its good to see some eduaction is being tried , but peer pressure would be the best tool .

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Closer to Kamloops too.
But the collar is probably the deterrent , doesn't mean other cows aren't being targetted. The killing of cows is well known and is wide spread , maybe not to the level of some urban myths though. Its good to see some eduaction is being tried , but peer pressure would be the best tool .

Your right about peer pressure, I know the local chiefs here would like to see less cows and does shot. So far not much has changed.

[srupp]

Hmm was not aware that 2 % of BC s population was allocated 55% of the wildlife..now without numbers actually harvested...we dont know what is being shot.
Lots and lots of moose, cows, calves...does whatever...blue tarp almost every yard almost every day..some have told of dozens of moose shot to eat, shot to trade, shot to sell...dont always need a chopper but when used its crystal clear the amount of game being shot...
Being offerred a bighorn ram for 10k ...we rhrew the meat out...they said..so just cape and horns

If its 60 animals goabc...thats nothing to where the resourses are going.
Steven

[Fisher-Dude]

the bull cow ration is out of wack here in the West Chilcotin, 7 out of ten in many areas. Since there is no cow season here, and wolves don't pick and choose what they eat, chances are there is another factor you must be missing. Everyone at the MOE know it but won't talk about. it.

Giving the MOE credit they are spending time at the reserves teaching the FN's the impact of killing cows. One FN In Aniham Lake claimed at the meeting he killed over 60 moose in the past year, rubbing it into the speakers face.
YOu still think there is not a problem?

Are you saying the bull to cow ratio is too high or two low?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Are you saying the bull to cow ratio is too high or two low?

the bull count the MOE would like to see is 3 or 4 bulls for every 10 cows. As they put it this proves that LEH hunting is not the problem it is the other legal form of hunting that is reducing cow populations.
This doesn't mean they want less bulls it means they want more cows.

[boxhitch]

other legal form of huntingI think the term in use is "unregulated hunting"

[Paulyman]

Funny how the GOABC and the government want to legislate PERCENTAGES of up to 40%, but only want to talk about the number of animals without giving us the formula they use. and then they get upset because we throw the percentages back at them...sounds to me that they like talking in circles.

It won't be only 60 animals once a certain group lobbies to have everything on leh, things will look a little nicer for them now wont it?

[boxhitch]

Hmm was not aware that 2 % of BC s population was allocated 55% of the wildlife..now without numbers actually harvested...we dont know what is being shot.pretty easy to allow for. Of the animals in a population, the number suitable for harvest is set using scientific parameters. So first it is determined if the number meets conservation needs , then 50% is taken off the top for FN's use , and then the remainder is the AAH for the two regulated hunter groups , the RH's and the Non-RH's .
If the FN's portion is not fully utilized it just leaves more animals standing. If it is used 100% , and guidelines are followed , there still remains sufficient stock to replenish the herds.
If all users utilize to 100% and follow the regulations , this is still a sustainable usage , as antler and horn restrictions are the safety , to ensure adequate restocking.