Alternatives to LEH only hunting

[Wild one]

With these allocation issues we are now seeing the over use of LEH is a bigger issue in BC than ever in my opinion. Personally I believe hunters need to look at ways of creating more opportunity out side of LEH. In reality LEH is still needed as a management tool in locations for some species but there are options beyond it in many cases.

Personally I am a fan of the combo of short special weapon/short GOS/LEH where the population would allow it. This is being used effectively in region 6 for moose already and personally believe it is an option that should be looked at for other areas.

Right now with the allocation issue it has a big impact on BC hunters do to the overuse of LEH restricting us. We still need to fight for a fair split but we should look at how to increase opportunity and make use less venerable.

The other thing I look at using special weapon seasons is when it comes to allocations a percentage of tags allocated to guides should only be for these special weapon seasons. This is common practice in North America.

I truly think we need to look at options to improve our opportunity beyond LEH

[adriaticum]

LEH is not a system of managing game. It's a system of managing hunters.
Special weapon's system is the same. It manages hunters, not game.

[Wild one]

LEH is not a system of managing game. It's a system of managing hunters.
Special weapon's system is the same. It manages hunters, not game.

Yes, managing hunter is always going to be part of hunting. This is not going to change as an open free for all is not a good option either.

Now do you have an option to add opportunity beyond straight LEH?

[adriaticum]

Yes, managing hunter is always going to be part of hunting. This is not going to change as an open free for all is not a good option either.

Now do you have an option to add opportunity beyond straight LEH?

I don't think anything other than LEH or some form of lottery draw is fair or effective.
At the core is the fact that people need to eat when people need to eat.
If you instate a longer bow season and shorten the rifle season you will probably get everyone jumping onto the bow season.
Which will in effect make that change ineffective.
The way I see it is we have to focus more on managing game and by managing I mean increasing populations.
We should probably shut down some hunts to allow recovery.
The things I've seen this year in Region 3 helped me understand why some game is on the decline in some regions.
First we cut down all the trees and destroy their homes and then we let cows eat their food.
It's actually very simple.

[Huevos]

LEH can be used not only to manage the amount of game killed, but the impact of hunters in an area. Where I grew up, I would put into a draw for mule deer and white tailed doe draw. there was times when, if awarded, I would receive 3 tags for mule deer and 2 tags for whiteys. I often wondered why it was a draw if they were giving so many tags out to one hunter. The conclusion I came to is that although they have a target amount of animals they would like to see taken, 1 hunter has far less impact than 3. This was in private land areas, and maybe had something to do with landowner requests?
If you have an LEH, for an area, let 50 tags out, and only kill 10% of the AAH for residents, you still only had 50 or so guys in that area. Now put that to GOS, 500 guys but a license, hunt the same area, take 100% of AAH, which still is ok for populations, but what was the impact of the increased # of hunters and traffic in that same area? Maybe it has less to do with managing AAH and more to do with managing the impact of hunters in a certain environment? I don't know. Just a thought.

[Whonnock Boy]

With all do respect, we have bigger issues than "alternatives to LEH". What should be being discussed is, how are we going to get the apathetic hunters on board? Once we do have them on board, how are we going to keep them engaged? Who is going to get all the clubs on board, and how can we do that? Who is going to spearhead these initiatives? Or better yet, how many people can we get to spearhead these initiatives? How are we going to convey to the federation what it is that the membership desires? Who in the government can we talk to, and try to influence to our benefit? What can we do to get Resident Priority going, and operational in the least amount of time possible? Or, we can just sit and chat on the computer talking about leh seasons, and wait for someone else to do it. Please don't take this the wrong way, but we have to get serious here, and there is no time for this.

[Huevos]

With all do respect, we have bigger issues than "alternatives to LEH". What should be being discussed is, how are we going to get the apathetic hunters on board? Once we do have them on board, how are we going to keep them engaged? Who is going to get all the clubs on board, and how can we do that? Who is going to spearhead these initiatives? Or better yet, how many people can we get to spearhead these initiatives? How are we going to convey to the federation what it is that the membership desires? Who in the government can we talk to, and try to influence to our benefit? What can we do to get Resident Priority going, and operational in the least amount of time possible? Or, we can just sit and chat on the computer talking about leh seasons, and wait for someone else to do it. Please don't take this the wrong way, but we have to get serious here, and there is no time for this.
Have you ever heard of multitasking. You bring up good points, and are welcome to your opinion, but some of us are actually capable of participating in more than one discussion at a time.... I see you included since you had time to post on here.

[Husky7mm]

I see the special weapon season just creating a bunch of people who are now muzzle loader, crossbow, bow, shotgun and primative weapon hunters also.
We really can't make more out of less. We need to make more game and do it sustainably, period. There should also be a limit on how many tags you can fill, some hunters are piggish and it screws over other hunters.

[steel_ram]

I see the special weapon season just creating a bunch of people who are now muzzle loader, crossbow, bow, shotgun and primative weapon hunters also.
We really can't make more out of less. We need to make more game and do it sustainably, period. There should also be a limit on how many tags you can fill, some hunters are piggish and it screws over other hunters.

Certainly everyone knows a few game hogs. Not too many households need a moose, an elk and three deer, per hunter. Maybe Moose and Elk (and bison) could be combined on a single tag, of which the limit is one.

[Wild one]

I don't think anything other than LEH or some form of lottery draw is fair or effective.
At the core is the fact that people need to eat when people need to eat.
If you instate a longer bow season and shorten the rifle season you will probably get everyone jumping onto the bow season.
Which will in effect make that change ineffective.
The way I see it is we have to focus more on managing game and by managing I mean increasing populations.
We should probably shut down some hunts to allow recovery.
The things I've seen this year in Region 3 helped me understand why some game is on the decline in some regions.
First we cut down all the trees and destroy their homes and then we let cows eat their food.
It's actually very simple.

Look at the southern region 6 moose season this is what I am suggesting. Maybe not the same number of archery seasons but the use of all 3 archery/GOS/LEH.

Not talking about shortening a GOS but instead in areas with a large number of LEH tags and no GOS(or just 2pt) why not have a short GOS and short archery season and an LEH for the prime part of the season with less tags than the original LEH.

This probably the most fair system. Hunters can hunt every year draw or not and option of both weapon styles even. LEH is only giving you a chance at the prime part of the season.

How is LEH only a more fair option?

[Huevos]

Look at the southern region 6 moose season this is what I am suggesting. Maybe not the same number of archery seasons but the use of all 3 archery/GOS/LEH.

Not talking about shortening a GOS but instead in areas with a large number of LEH tags and no GOS(or just 2pt) why not have a short GOS and short archery season and an LEH for the prime part of the season with less tags than the original LEH.

This probably the most fair system. Hunters can hunt every year draw or not and option of both weapon styles even. LEH is only giving you a chance at the prime part of the season.

How is LEH only a more fair option?

I take it that you are a bowhunter. I am as well, and like longer bow seasons, but out of the 102,000 hunters, how many currently bow hunt? Probably not an attractive option for them.
Special weapons seasons in other jurisdictions (e.g. Washington) only allow you to hunt in those particular seasons. If you bowhunt, you can only hunt with a bow in the designated season. The same with rifle, and muzzleloader. This option greatly reduces your hunting opportunity as an individual compared to what we have now here in BC. I don't know that this is the way to go either. Who gets the rut? Probably bowhunters to increase their odds, but then why should rifle hunters get screwed out of the rut? LEH lets anyone with a draw hunt with what they want. I don't know how fair it is, but it affords each resident the choice of weapon, and when they can use it within a given season.

[adriaticum]

Look at the southern region 6 moose season this is what I am suggesting. Maybe not the same number of archery seasons but the use of all 3 archery/GOS/LEH.

Not talking about shortening a GOS but instead in areas with a large number of LEH tags and no GOS(or just 2pt) why not have a short GOS and short archery season and an LEH for the prime part of the season with less tags than the original LEH.

This probably the most fair system. Hunters can hunt every year draw or not and option of both weapon styles even. LEH is only giving you a chance at the prime part of the season.

How is LEH only a more fair option?

Because it's a lottery and in a lottery everyone is supposed to have equal chances of winning. Basically.
But you are talking about much more than LEH. I understood you wanted to extend the archery season.

Well basically LEH exists in areas where there is not enough supply to satisfy the demand.
This is in theory.

If there is an LEH and there are many tags that could support a GOS then open it for everyone (archery and rifle).
But we have to make sure that if a particular population is recovering we don't stop that recovery in it's tracks by opening a GOS.
In essence I agree with you.

[Wild one]

I take it that you are a bowhunter. I am as well, and like longer bow seasons, but out of the 102,000 hunters, how many currently bow hunt? Probably not an attractive option for them.
Special weapons seasons in other jurisdictions (e.g. Washington) only allow you to hunt in those particular seasons. If you bowhunt, you can only hunt with a bow in the designated season. The same with rifle, and muzzleloader. This option greatly reduces your hunting opportunity as an individual compared to what we have now here in BC. I don't know that this is the way to go either. Who gets the rut? Probably bowhunters to increase their odds, but then why should rifle hunters get screwed out of the rut? LEH lets anyone with a draw hunt with what they want. I don't know how fair it is, but it affords each resident the choice of weapon, and when they can use it within a given season.

look up the example used in southern region 6 moose the main rut is LEH

Like I said it is archery/LEH/GOS combination and it is being effectively used in southern region 6.

I am not saying to run the number of archery seasons that are used here but this model is being used and giving more opportunity than straight LEH.

It is an option that gives opportunity to all users.

[Wild one]

Because it's a lottery and in a lottery everyone is supposed to have equal chances of winning. Basically.
But you are talking about much more than LEH. I understood you wanted to extend the archery season.

Well basically LEH exists in areas where there is not enough supply to satisfy the demand.
This is in theory.

If there is an LEH and there are many tags that could support a GOS then open it for everyone (archery and rifle).
But we have to make sure that if a particular population is recovering we don't stop that recovery in it's tracks by opening a GOS.
In essence I agree with you.

agree this is only effective in areas with larger number of LEH tags. If it is a low number of tags LEH is all we have.

There is a fair number of areas this could be possible

[Husky7mm]

I for one mostly enjoyed LEH in BC, it did not allow me to hunt some of the close to home or super desirable units that i wished too regularly so i did my homework and was drawn almost every year or a friend was at least. Had some very enjoyable, successful and peaceful hunts. I figure if people want to put in for the really desireable tags for years and years and maybe never get to hunt that unit or species that is their derogative. Its a distraction from the other units that can provide more frequent opportunities albeit poor access or lower chances at an easy trophy. My priority lies in being able to hunt more a trophy is a bonus and often acheived by hard work and good old fashioned luck. Maybe i was just a lucky person in the draws....? But I rarely put in for more than 4 to one odds and was willing to travel and figure out my own access.

Moving to Alberta is a whole new ball game. Its seem with less areas to hide somewhat or lots if private land its all about the draws. The higher the priority the more people put in. Folks that have never seen the unit or killed and elk or even hunted one for that matter apply in droves ..... It makes everyone a "sheep hunter" or "mule deer hunter " or " moose hunter" ....... Huge back logs and line ups, worse every year

I figure if you have a priorty 12 ( 12 years of applying) and your asking where to go and apply than hunting that species often was really not much of a life goal for you.

Its like human nature is like "oh theres a line, might as well stand in it" lol

Many believe the priority system is the way to go, I disagree. It makes good units almost unacheivable and even not so special units a wait because they are "worth it" to many. The priorty point requirement grows with every season regardless of actually how good the unit is.

[Wild one]

I for one mostly enjoyed LEH in BC, it did not allow me to hunt some of the close to home or super desirable units that i wished too regularly so i did my homework and was drawn almost every year or a friend was at least. Had some very enjoyable, successful and peaceful hunts. I figure if people want to put in for the really desireable tags for years and years and maybe never get to hunt that unit or species that is their derogative. Its a distraction from the other units that can provide more frequent opportunities albeit poor access or lower chances at an easy trophy. My priority lies in being able to hunt more a trophy is a bonus and often acheived by hard work and good old fashioned luck. Maybe i was just a lucky person in the draws....? But I rarely put in for more than 4 to one odds and was willing to travel and figure out my own access.

Moving to Alberta is a whole new ball game. Its seem with less areas to hide somewhat or lots if private land its all about the draws. The higher the priority the more people put in. Folks that have never seen the unit or killed and elk or even hunted one for that matter apply in droves ..... It makes everyone a "sheep hunter" or "mule deer hunter " or " moose hunter" ....... Huge back logs and line ups, worse every year

I figure if you have a priorty 12 ( 12 years of applying) and your asking where to go and apply than hunting that species often was really not much of a life goal for you.

Its like human nature is like "oh theres a line, might as well stand in it" lol

Many believe the priority system is the way to go, I disagree. It makes good units almost unacheivable and even not so special units a wait because they are "worth it" to many. The priorty point requirement grows with every season regardless of actually how good the unit is.

You mention Alberta in most cases when they have no GOS there is an archery season along with LEH

I have no real issue with BC's LEH system it is their over use of LEH only in many areas for some species

[Husky7mm]

You mention Alberta in most cases when they have no GOS there is an archery season along with LEH

I have no real issue with BC's LEH system it is their over use of LEH only in many areas for some species

Yes that is the case in Alberta but that is gonna dry up real quick. The archery mule deer season is all but a thing of the past due to a high harvest because if the influx of now "bow hunters". Moose will quickly go that way also as the both popularity and success are way up for archery.

[Wild one]

Yes that is the case in Alberta but that is gonna dry up real quick. The archery mule deer season is all but a thing of the past due to a high harvest because if the influx of now "bow hunters". Moose will quickly go that way also as the both popularity and success are way up for archery.

I know a little on your mule deer issue it was do to a decrease in trophy class bucks and the ABA wanted it on draw. Not a population issue that is why there is still an archery doe season and it is closed for bucks.

Could get into it more but in the end it was political BS that changed it.

The other issue for Alberta was the last 2 winter kills. Add in the number of non residents that hunt under a resident license do to the no wait time to become a resident hunter.

It is not a big influx of bowhunters but harsh winters and Alberta is very political when it comes to its season.

Alberta has its own issues they are just different from BC.

Lived there in the past, friends still do, and still hunt their at times. May even move back there so I keep an eye on what goes on out there as well

[40incher]

Interesting discussion, and one that needs to happen and continue on 'til resolution ...

One point to be made is that total LEH, when other innovative options are available, is "an overused restriction" for BC resident hunters. This is a bureaucratic dysfunction issue ... which isn't going away anytime soon. Give me any examples where we are killing our resident allocation, averaged over a 5-year allocation period ... on quota species such as southern BC moose, sheep, Mtn. Goat, VI elk, etc ...

For South Skeena moose, even with a "very" broad choice of options to hunt moose, we are still killing less than 80% of our allowable harvest of that species for non-guided BC residents??!!

Time to wake up ... we as BC resident hunters are being over-regulated to the extreme!

[Cordillera]

Look at the southern region 6 moose season this is what I am suggesting. Maybe not the same number of archery seasons but the use of all 3 archery/GOS/LEH.

Not talking about shortening a GOS but instead in areas with a large number of LEH tags and no GOS(or just 2pt) why not have a short GOS and short archery season and an LEH for the prime part of the season with less tags than the original LEH.

This probably the most fair system. Hunters can hunt every year draw or not and option of both weapon styles even. LEH is only giving you a chance at the prime part of the season.

How is LEH only a more fair option?

I agree. The other part of region six moose model I like is there are no rules on antler configuration. If it's a bull you can take it. The record of hunter success for region six is less hunter effort per bull killed than either region five or 7a. To me that is a sign of a good management model.

I doubt that you could use region six model in region 3 or 5 because there are too many hunters for even a short GOS but it should work in 7a and 7b.

[Wild one]

I agree. The other part of region six moose model I like is there are no rules on antler configuration. If it's a bull you can take it. The record of hunter success for region six is less hunter effort per bull killed than either region five or 7a. To me that is a sign of a good management model.

I doubt that you could use region six model in region 3 or 5 because there are too many hunters for even a short GOS but it should work in 7a and 7b.


I could see it working in 7 and even part of 5 but would say 8,3 need to look at other options. It really is only a good option for areas the population can handle it.

[Wild one]

Interesting discussion, and one that needs to happen and continue on 'til resolution ...

One point to be made is that total LEH, when other innovative options are available, is "an overused restriction" for BC resident hunters. This is a bureaucratic dysfunction issue ... which isn't going away anytime soon. Give me any examples where we are killing our resident allocation, averaged over a 5-year allocation period ... on quota species such as southern BC moose, sheep, Mtn. Goat, VI elk, etc ...

For South Skeena moose, even with a "very" broad choice of options to hunt moose, we are still killing less than 80% of our allowable harvest of that species for non-guided BC residents??!!

Time to wake up ... we as BC resident hunters are being over-regulated to the extreme!

Agree in my opinion BC resident hunters have been stuck with either a long GOS with point restrictions or LEH only so long they do not look at other options.

There is many other options outside of straight LEH than the example I have given. In my opinion at the min in areas that could allow it we should look into some form of yearly opportunity beyond just waiting for an LEH. The use of short GOS and/or special weapon seasons combined with LEH should be considered.

This many not be able to give you prime time or a long season but you can hunt every year. It would beat the option of only waiting for an LEH

This is not something that would be able to give opportunity on high odds draws where animals can only handle a small limited harvest. BC does on the other hand have LEH seasons with high number of tags that could be adjusted to add a small form of yearly opportunity drawn or not.