Where have all the amimals gone?

[Huevos]

After reading on this forum the last bit, one of the questions that has come to the forefront of my thoughts is this. What has caused the population decreases that people talk about in the province? I realize that there are a number of factors, and I would like to hear your opinions on some of the significant factors, and how you feel we should be dealing with these changes. Some thoughts I am sure will be based on science, others on personal observation, but all are welcome.

One thing I see as I drive around the countryside is huge logging blocks, and road access to just about anywhere in the local area. It makes me wonder if habitat management is even on the radar. Economics and viable industry in all sectors is important, but who is in charge of balancing it with conservation, and are they doing it right? Do they have the recourses to do it right? How can we, as individuals help?

[j270wsm]

Habitat management is the same as the goabc's wild life management plan.......it's all about $$$$$$$$$$........!!!!!!!!!!


habitat loss/access and wolves are the biggest problems

[Sofa King]

in the big picture, we can't really fix it.
even if we were to get any #'s up in any areas, the gov would come along eventually and log those areas, put a mine in, or turn it over to goabc.

[HarryToolips]

Habitat management is the same as the goabc's wild life management plan.......it's all about $$$$$$$$$$........!!!!!!!!!!


habitat loss/access and wolves are the biggest problems

I agree, it would be nice if the Ministry of Environment could find a good way of de-activating roads and access once logging a block is completed..this would give certain vulnerable species better chances from not only hunters and FN's but from the preds..

That being said, from my observations, moose in my area seem to be doing ok, and WT seem to be doing very well despite the generous seasons..it would be great if we could do mule deer counts, but from my observation they're doing not bad either..

All just my observations and opinions of course..

[BTF]

From observations in my region the biggest threat to certain wildlife populations is lost of wintering range. There is all kinds of summer range, but the valuable wintering areas are shrinking.

[Sofa King]

aside from any industry, habitat destruction, or anything else, I think the #1 biggest problem is allowing people to slaughter whatever they want, whenever, simply because of their race.
and making them exempt from practically every single law there is that every other person HAS to follow or be punished.

[aggiehunter]

longest rifle seasons in North America and during the rut...general open seasons on does....quad hunters with chainsaws...gps....google earth....social media....1275 yard hunting rifles....I guess we can blame the Indians on that too.

[Sofa King]

longest rifle seasons in North America and during the rut...general open seasons on does....quad hunters with chainsaws...gps....google earth....social media....1275 yard hunting rifles....I guess we can blame the Indians on that too.

all that combined doesn't do the damage that the Indians do.
every single one of those you mentioned still has rules and regulations to follow, and quotas also.

[Sofa King]

we haven't been able to shoot a deer for quite a few weeks now.
they can go out every day still and shoot a deer to sell for some money to go buy some beer with.
and that's not racist in any way, it's the damn truth.

[Drillbit]

I agree, it would be nice if the Ministry of Environment could find a good way of de-activating roads and access once logging a block is completed..this would give certain vulnerable species better chances from not only hunters and FN's but from the preds..
.

How could deactivating a road possibly give vulnerable species a better chance from the preds?

I have found it harder to predator hunt with all the de-activations and atv restrictions, as I mainly predator hunt to help the moose out for the day I finally get an LEH (0/Lifetime of LEH Moose in Reg5)

[BearSupreme]

we haven't been able to shoot a deer for quite a few weeks now.
they can go out every day still and shoot a deer to sell for some money to go buy some beer with.
and that's not racist in any way, it's the damn truth.

I totally agree. Most of them will still blame the white man for all their problems, but they get pretty well everything they want. The Natives on the island are out of control. Ive got lots of stories from the game shops ive worked at, and they shoot a looot of animals. They will call and ask if they can bring an elk in that has sat there for a week, but say they will bring it in when they get paid in a couple days. A week later they call in again and ask if they can bring in an elk that has been there for 5 days (different elk). There will never be an open season on elk, or increased odds for LEH as long as this is allowed to happen. Im assuming this is a Canada wide problem.

That aside, I think predators play a huge role as well. More and more animals are moving closer to towns, and I think its to get away from predators. You can drive and hike around for days in prime habitat and never see anything, but then see a dozen animals on the way through town. I think human destruction plays a bit of a role in less animals, but clearcuts also provide some of the best food for all animals. IMO, predators are still the biggest issue that we can deal with right now, because the native rights issue is only going to get worse..

[primitive]

Great points Aggiehunter...

[Everett]

In the east kootenays its loss of wintering range and an abundance of wolves the FN in this part of the world are pretty good most hunt within the seasons and are respectful of bag limits. But to be honest our game numbers in the EK are pretty healthy besides the Mule Deer but they have been coming back for last couple years. Elk are abundant, whitetails are everywhere and moose seem to be more common than a person would expect.

[two-feet]

In my opinion, the big ones are:

1- Pine beetle has changed BC. We have a different environment now, the consequences are still unknown.

2- Fire suppression. This creates a decadent, less productive forest.

3- Habitat loss from a variety of human causes.

[Wild one]

Habitat gets raped in BC and very little is done to improve it

Some areas predators are an issue not just wolves black bear as well

Lack of CO's lots of poaching and bending the rules in my opinion. Shocked on the number of idiots who just out and out say"shot this big buck in my headlights".

FN who abuse there rights this really depend on the area not all bands are bad for this.

Poor management BC runs on estimated numbers that in my opinion the survey does not come close to providing.

In my opinion there are some LEH and GOS that are too liberal in areas.

In my opinion all these factors play a roll some more than others depending on the location

[BearSupreme]

Habitat gets raped in BC and very little is done to improve it

Some areas predators are an issue not just wolves black bear as well

Lack of CO's lots of poaching and bending the rules in my opinion. Shocked on the number of idiots who just out and out say"shot this big buck in my headlights".

FN who abuse there rights this really depend on the area not all bands are bad for this.

Poor management BC runs on estimated numbers that in my opinion the survey does not come close to providing.

In my opinion there are some LEH and GOS that are too liberal in areas.

In my opinion all these factors play a roll some more than others depending on the location

well said Wild one, there are a lot of factors. Im sure record numbers of hunters with the same GOS seasons cant help animal populations grow

[E.V.B.H.]

well said Wild one, there are a lot of factors. Im sure record numbers of hunters with the same GOS seasons cant help animal populations grow
Record #'s of hunters?? Are we talking about the 70's and 80's?

[coach]

well said Wild one, there are a lot of factors. Im sure record numbers of hunters with the same GOS seasons cant help animal populations grow


Record #'s of hunters?? Are we talking about the 70's and 80's?

There were 174,000 hunters in 1981-82. Today there are 102,000..

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/numbers+Hunting/8237298/story.html#__federated=1

[curt]

the issue is complex and there isn't an easy answer but I believe a major issue is logging of beetle killed pine... clear cutting huge vast area's leaving very little cover for game making predation much easier for 4 legged predators and 2 legged ones. Huge area's opened up for logging makes it real easy to cover lots of ground to find animals Christ I've seen rds back in the bush into some beautiful country so well constructed you could drive a car there never mind a 4x4 or quad. in all honesty you can deactivate the rds all you want guys with quads like myself if I want to find a way through into some less travelled remote access country on my quad ill find it regardless how much you rip up the rd that's just the reality im being honest where some might blow smoke up your ass I wont.

[Wild one]

There were 174,000 hunters in 1981-82. Today there are 102,000..

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/numbers+Hunting/8237298/story.html#__federated=1

True hunter numbers have been higher in the past but BC has changed a lot since then.

The human population has increased as well which creates towns and cities to grow taking away from wild areas. As the population expands it destroys habitat that is not recovered. Our extraction of natural resources has changed the habitat as well.

We have greater access into areas than the past between new road/trails along with a higher number of atv's and jet boats.

Even the gear has changed hunting as well we now see longer shots do to optics, trail cams that scout when we are not there, and many other toys to increase our odds.


BC is not the same place as it was in the 80's and the hunters have changed as well. Do to this I cannot just go well there is less hunters now than the past so we are not making near the impact on wildlife as they did in the 80's

I don't believe hunters are a large factor in changes in wildlife populations but we make an impact in my opinion

[Drillbit]

BC is not the same place as it was in the 80's and the hunters have changed as well. Do to this I cannot just go well there is less hunters now than the past so we are not making near the impact on wildlife as they did in the 80's

I dunno.

I've seen pictures of "meat poles" from back then and have never seen anything close in the last 20 years. Nowadays everyone want's good pictures to put online, and the majority of pictures I see are scenery and big racks, not maxed out meat poles.

I truly believe hunter numbers and poaching is not a problem in BC for BC ungulates.
I think it has more to do with limited access, beetle kill, private property, reduced winter ranges, people hunting only for meat......

Thinking about it, I'd like to see the ICBC roadkill stats, but don't know how to find things like that. I'm guessing ICBC is much happier lately?

[mikeman20]

what were hunter success numbers like in the 80's compared to now?

[Cordillera]

It's not so simple. First, there are many species that are better off today than in the past. Black bears are way up, elk have expanded a lot, bison numbers are up..... You get my drift. In some places where there is no logging or mining, moose numbers are down over the past twenty years (north end of region six).

I think there are a couple things that are pretty consistent. First is that predator control (poison) for fifty years kept ungulate numbers artificially high until the eighties. A lot of the declines in the past twenty years are delayed responses to predators (all of em) returning to more natural levels.

Second, in the populated areas, there is permanent loss of habitat for some species like deer. Subdivisions.

Logging itself may be bad for Cariboo but is good or neutral for almost all the other ungulates. There aren't that many mines out there to have a noticeable effect.

Hunter access should not really affect long term populations unless the hunters are poaching females. Yes some of that happens but it always has, so has it increased so much to cause big declines? Not likely.

In the end I think the biggest cause is the return of predators to the landscape. We had artificially high populations for a very long time.

[one-shot-wonder]

There aren't that many mines out there to have a noticeable effect.

I don't know of a region in the province that sheep herds have not been affected by mining.......:roll:

[Ferenc]

You have to ask ..are the animals as resilient as they where years ago the 50s 60s 70s and then habitat loss and access would most likely be the cause ... Just about every area my dad hunted now has a super highway going into these areas

[Drillbit]

It's not so simple. First, there are many species that are better off today than in the past. Black bears are way up, elk have expanded a lot, bison numbers are up..... You get my drift. In some places where there is no logging or mining, moose numbers are down over the past twenty years (north end of region six).

I think there are a couple things that are pretty consistent. First is that predator control (poison) for fifty years kept ungulate numbers artificially high until the eighties. A lot of the declines in the past twenty years are delayed responses to predators (all of em) returning to more natural levels.

Second, in the populated areas, there is permanent loss of habitat for some species like deer. Subdivisions.

Logging itself may be bad for Cariboo but is good or neutral for almost all the other ungulates. There aren't that many mines out there to have a noticeable effect.

Hunter access should not really affect long term populations unless the hunters are poaching females. Yes some of that happens but it always has, so has it increased so much to cause big declines? Not likely.

In the end I think the biggest cause is the return of predators to the landscape. We had artificially high populations for a very long time.

I agree with that for the most part.

I do think black bears and wolves are the main problem, due to "progress", mainly political correctness, the "nanny state".
I don't think numbers were artificially high though, I think the poison, and open season on black bears was to try to keep them where they were. This was back when they actually took the time/effort/$ to count game.

Wolves used to only have the rivers for easy travelling to and from ungulate winter range, now they have rail-beds, roads, skidoo tracks, cross country ski trails, lease roads, etc. Black bears were treated the same as Columbian Ground Squirrels, kill them on sight.

[rgn5hunt]

We get easy winters some times and low snow. Winter survival rates go up. Back to back easy winters help animal numbers grow. Do you ever see many liberalized seasons when numbers go up? Or just more LEH and restrictions?

[ICEWOODY]

No they can unless it's on their land if you think this in general you need to read more

[ICEWOODY]

we haven't been able to shoot a deer for quite a few weeks now.
they can go out every day still and shoot a deer to sell for some money to go buy some beer with.
and that's not racist in any way, it's the damn truth.
They don't have their own rules they get exemptions to rules. Any animal harvested on crown land out of season is illegal, I don't care if your ****ing purple

[ICEWOODY]

We need end of season harvest cards to help as hunters we by far are the biggest number of eyes in the bush. Send out a letter at the end of the season and give a notes page as well. And give it to the native. They get free tags via not having to purchase them so claim them

[Wild one]

I dunno.

I've seen pictures of "meat poles" from back then and have never seen anything close in the last 20 years. Nowadays everyone want's good pictures to put online, and the majority of pictures I see are scenery and big racks, not maxed out meat poles.

I truly believe hunter numbers and poaching is not a problem in BC for BC ungulates.
I think it has more to do with limited access, beetle kill, private property, reduced winter ranges, people hunting only for meat......

Thinking about it, I'd like to see the ICBC roadkill stats, but don't know how to find things like that. I'm guessing ICBC is much happier lately?

Basically in simple terms what I am getting at is BC is not the same place as it was in the 80's. Lose of habitat and human impact have increased just look at the increase in BC's population and think about all the ways this impacts habitat and game numbers. As you mentioned increase in roadkill is 1.

We are not hunting the same BC hunters of the 80's were. My family alone has a long history hunting locations in BC and we see the changes. Areas you can no longer hunt, changes in habitat do to harvesting resources, increased access in many locations and decrease in others.

Do I think hunters make a huge impact no but I don't think we are doing the best job at adjusting to the other factors that impact game numbers.

I have a few small locations I hunt that see little impact from people do to how I reach them and their location. buck/doe ratios are a lot better and so are the numbers but the habitat is no better than other areas near by that are almost dead zones.

Only factor I can see that makes these populations so different is 1 has little human impact well the other has a lot.

Predators and habitat are big factors in BC but these are only a piece of the puzzle in my opinion

[Wild one]

Another thing I have experienced that makes me ? hunters impact

In Alberta they have MU's that are GOS season for deer starting in Sept and than the odd MU that will borders these that is archery only Sept-Oct and than GOS in Nov. Same habitat, same access, and same predator populations yet you will notice a difference in population and quality of bucks in the MU's with the shorter GOS.

Before someone says it no these are not farmland but bush country crown land

These experiences make me ? what impact hunters truly make

[Huevos]

So many populations like elk, bison, and deer in certain areas are actually doing better now than 20 yrs ago? That is good to read.

Do mines have a negative impact on sheep, or just sheep hunters? The reason I ask is that from my observations the limited access and tailings reclamation seems to produce good habitat for ungulates, but no access to hunters on private property. That is why Cadomin mine sheep in Alberta are so hard to draw.

It seems that predators are definitely a factor.... one that we could help control. I don't want to encourage something that is going to have a negative impact on the environment, but it seems to me that 102,000 hunters could potentially take out 204,000 bears in one season. I know that would never happen, but why don't I see more bear hunters out hunting in the spring? We take about 30-40 bears every year, and about 10% of that in wolves. How many guys that are so passionate about their moose actually take the bears available to them as well? I honestly don't know, but in a month of hunting, I would say on average, I see about 10 other vehicles on the backroads that aren't there for work. Not quite the same as moose season traffic.

[Sofa King]

doesnt count.
we are talking about b.c.
we have actual terrain, where's a wolf gonna hide in alberta?
haha


Another thing I have experienced that makes me ? hunters impact

In Alberta they have MU's that are GOS season for deer starting in Sept and than the odd MU that will borders these that is archery only Sept-Oct and than GOS in Nov. Same habitat, same access, and same predator populations yet you will notice a difference in population and quality of bucks in the MU's with the shorter GOS.

Before someone says it no these are not farmland but bush country crown land

These experiences make me ? what impact hunters truly make

[Buck]

I think a lot of folks don't hunt bear because of trichenella.Back when you did not have to remove the meat a lot more bears were shot for the hides and as pest control.

[Wild one]

Black bear see little pressure north of region 3. You will see a fair number of black bear hunters in region 2 and 3 also a portion of them are very selective on what they are willing to take.

In your area I am not surprised you see very few bear hunters in the spring. When I hunt 6 in the spring the only bear hunters I see are those I am hunting with.

Do to most of BC being fair-great bear hunting and length of the season most don't travel far to hunt black bear. Unlike most species you don't get a large population travelling long distances to hunt bear.

[Wild one]

doesnt count.
we are talking about b.c.
we have actual terrain, where's a wolf gonna hide in alberta?
haha

Lots of wolves in western Alberta and lots of Bush and even mountains. Trees don't just stop at the border and Alberta's bighorns don't live in the prairies lol

Like I sad not talking farmland

Regardless take a large chunk of habitat draw borders. No natural boundaries to effect wildlife just different management of hunting seasons. You can see the difference in game population and quality.

So would it not make you ? how much impact hunters have?

[Sofa King]

Lots of wolves in western Alberta and lots of Bush and even mountains. Trees don't just stop at the border and Alberta's bighorns don't live in the prairies lol

Like I sad not talking farmland

Regardless take a large chunk of habitat draw borders. No natural boundaries to effect wildlife just different management of hunting seasons. You can see the difference in game population and quality.

So would it not make you ? how much impact hunters have?

i know, i was just poking fun.
there's an overly sensitive albertan on here who gets his panties in a bunch.
definitely hunter impact is huge, and i believe tge most detrimental.
but by "hunter", i mean "harvested by human" overall.
poachers do severe harm to the region 3 moose pops every year.
and indians are completely unregulated and its 100% unknown just how many of everything they take.

[tripleseven]

It's not so simple. First, there are many species that are better off today than in the past. Black bears are way up, elk have expanded a lot, bison numbers are up..... You get my drift. In some places where there is no logging or mining, moose numbers are down over the past twenty years (north end of region six).

I think there are a couple things that are pretty consistent. First is that predator control (poison) for fifty years kept ungulate numbers artificially high until the eighties. A lot of the declines in the past twenty years are delayed responses to predators (all of em) returning to more natural levels.

Second, in the populated areas, there is permanent loss of habitat for some species like deer. Subdivisions.

Logging itself may be bad for Cariboo but is good or neutral for almost all the other ungulates. There aren't that many mines out there to have a noticeable effect.

Hunter access should not really affect long term populations unless the hunters are poaching females. Yes some of that happens but it always has, so has it increased so much to cause big declines? Not likely.

In the end I think the biggest cause is the return of predators to the landscape. We had artificially high populations for a very long time.

This is the most logical post I've seen in this thread. During a populations and communities course I took I learned there is always a lagging cycle in predator-prey relationships, the classic example is snowshoe hare and lynx. Look up the graph of it. Basically in an ecosystem that isn't tampered with (such as predator's controlled), the prey experience a population boom, that produces tons of predators, predators eat all the prey and starve. This allows the prey to boom again...and it repeats.

Aside from Region 5 moose, and a few other species around the province I don't feel that over hunting is the issue. In most areas of the province, there isn't an issue with numbers, period. In fact an area I was hunting this fall appears to be facing a serious overpopulation of mule deer. We were seeing 50-60 deer a day, excluding ranchers fields. One thing to note is that this was rural ranching country, and I didn't see one lick of predator sign. My guess is that this area is still subject to non-government sanctioned predator control.

There is more regulation than ever of hunting seasons, and it's for the better. If the biologists feel that BC can support the seasons that it can, then who are we to armchair quarterback and say different. Really, aside from the previously mentioned cases, there's lots of game here, but it's important to remember the cyclic nature of local populations.

[Wild one]

i know, I was just poking fun.
there's an overly sensitive albertan on here who gets his panties in a bunch.
definitely hunter impact is huge, and i believe tge most detrimental.
but by "hunter", i mean "harvested by human" overall.
poachers do severe harm to the region 3 moose pops every year.
and indians are completely unregulated and its 100% unknown just how many of everything they take.

We have little control over poaching or FN. More CO's may help with poaching. When it comes to FN's who over harvest that is an issue that I don't see changing in my life time do to the political and PC issues involved. But these are both issues that are faced across the country.

The only human harvest we have control over is that by the hunters who follow the regs.

Many seem to believe BC hunters who follow the regs have no impact. Personally from what I have seen BC could manage it's season better for both opportunity and game numbers.

[tripleseven]

This is the most logical post I've seen in this thread. During a populations and communities course I took I learned there is always a lagging cycle in predator-prey relationships, the classic example is snowshoe hare and lynx. Look up the graph of it. Basically in an ecosystem that isn't tampered with (such as predator's controlled), the prey experience a population boom, that produces tons of predators, predators eat all the prey and starve. This allows the prey to boom again...and it repeats.

Aside from Region 5 moose, and a few other species around the province I don't feel that over hunting is the issue. In most areas of the province, there isn't an issue with numbers, period. In fact an area I was hunting this fall appears to be facing a serious overpopulation of mule deer. We were seeing 50-60 deer a day, excluding ranchers fields. One thing to note is that this was rural ranching country, and I didn't see one lick of predator sign. My guess is that this area is still subject to non-government sanctioned predator control.

There is more regulation than ever of hunting seasons, and it's for the better. If the biologists feel that BC can support the seasons that it can, then who are we to armchair quarterback and say different. Really, aside from the previously mentioned cases, there's lots of game here, but it's important to remember the cyclic nature of local populations.

Also, this area with an over population of deer was a 20 minute drive from a reserve.

[Wild one]

This is the most logical post I've seen in this thread. During a populations and communities course I took I learned there is always a lagging cycle in predator-prey relationships, the classic example is snowshoe hare and lynx. Look up the graph of it. Basically in an ecosystem that isn't tampered with (such as predator's controlled), the prey experience a population boom, that produces tons of predators, predators eat all the prey and starve. This allows the prey to boom again...and it repeats.

Aside from Region 5 moose, and a few other species around the province I don't feel that over hunting is the issue. In most areas of the province, there isn't an issue with numbers, period. In fact an area I was hunting this fall appears to be facing a serious overpopulation of mule deer. We were seeing 50-60 deer a day, excluding ranchers fields. One thing to note is that this was rural ranching country, and I didn't see one lick of predator sign. My guess is that this area is still subject to non-government sanctioned predator control.

There is more regulation than ever of hunting seasons, and it's for the better. If the biologists feel that BC can support the seasons that it can, then who are we to armchair quarterback and say different. Really, aside from the previously mentioned cases, there's lots of game here, but it's important to remember the cyclic nature of local populations.

I agree with part of what you say and understand the boom and bust cycle

Yes, there are species that are doing great in BC and locations that are doing very well. Bio's are also pressured to harmonize seasons to make it easy for hunters to understand regs and they are also under funded when it comes to research. There are decisions made on hunting season that are made by political pressure or on best guesses with the data they have. They are doing what they can with what they have to work with and they are under pressure from groups lobbying for different season as well.

In reality do to the diversity in the habitat within regions and BC in general it is actually a difficult prov to manage. There is large fluctuations in population from one mu to another because of this. BC cannot be managed properly by just looking at it as regions yet there is a good number of seasons applied this way.

This is also why there is no 1 answer to what is effecting a species in BC because factors change so much from one area to another

In my opinion there are many ways BC could improve

[hunter1947]

My thoughts a few words I will say sums it all up my thoughts,,,,miss management and not controlling the predators you all can think what you want you have that choice I don't sit behind the computer at work I am not a biologist I don't use science and I don't have a good education..

I know what I see out there in the wild being out there in the wild for over 55 years and spending the last 5 years six months out in the wild EK the last 5 years out from Jan till June shed hunting in 4 different regions tells a lot about whats out there I see what has happened over 55 years of hunting..

I don't by it that its habitat that is the problem the habitat is the same as it was back in the early nineties in the wintering grounds nothing has changed except some farmers have put up a 8 foot fence line to keep the animals off there land I don't agree with this is my opinion I used to see hundreds of elk deer low line areas in Dec when I came up to the EK for a visit now you only see a hand full out there in the wintering grounds from what once was..

In fact there is more summer habitat out there now with more new logged off areas over the past 20 years ,,I have put on around 100k from this Jan till now Feb and have seen around 50 predators kills from cats and wolfs in 3 different regions in the EK.....

Hunting pressure is another problem more roads for hunters to get back into remote and non remote areas I have noticed more hunters out there then when I was a younger man back in the days my thoughts are that maybe there where more hunting Licence bought back in the day and many people that bought them never followed up going out..

How many people with hunting licences years back went out and hunted no one will really know will they I know I don't know now a days my thoughts are that everyone that has a hunting licence goes out hunting..

[LBM]

Mainly human caused either directly or indirectly.
Hunter1947 everytime you find a bone in the bush doesn't mean it was killed by a cat or wolf.

[Grolar]

does anyone know what moose populations are like in 7b

[Sofa King]

ever heard the term "don't shit in your backyard"?
I have a reserve that's about 20 minutes away.
not even 5 minutes into the hills on the road that leaves from the reserve, I see several deer every time I've been through there.
i've also never, ever seen any Indians hunting up there either.
but I can't think of any of the main areas I hunt, that I haven't seen groups of Indians driving around in.
seen them going into areas I hunt at dark as I'm coming out.
seen them set up hunting camps on farmer's lands.
seen two truckloads of them(cab full and guys in the box) heading up milehigh from Savona, two weeks before the season opened for the rest of us.
they said they were going to kill everything they could before whitey has a chance.
and they are breaking no laws doing any of this.
and I don't blame them totally either, because it's our chickenshit, bleeding-heart government that has allowed things to get this way.

if happenings like this aren't controlled or regulated, or even kept track of, then there's no knowing how bad an impact it has on things.
and the circle never ends, because any stricter hunting regs that may ever be imposed to us to help animal pops won't apply to them and it does nothing to really improve anything.
much like when the salmon fishing is closed, or the steelhead season on the T because the #'s aren't there.
it's totally bogus, because it's only closed to us, they can still be out there talking whatever they want.

and then add to that problem, the actual poachers who are out there.
and I'm sure for every case that is caught, many, many have gotten through the crack.
hell, I never saw one single CO roadcheck this past season, not one.
in fact, I never saw one CO anywhere during the hunting season, except driving around town.

I think the main causes of decreased game is totally different for different areas.
some, it will be explosions of predators.
some will be over-harvest, be it due to poachers, poor management, or Indians taking animals year-round.
some areas might be due to industry or harsh weather.
but, the biggest problem is not having a great remedy.
they have no clue as to realistic #'s and don't have the balls to actually close seasons down completely if need be, because they want that revenue that is generated from hunters to keep flowing.
I'd have no problem at all if they just completely closed moose in region 3 and 8 for a season or two.
IF that would actually get their #'s back up.
but it can't if they don't apply any actions to EVERYBODY.

[Liveforthehunt]

does anyone know what moose populations are like in 7b
Down the past 2 years ... I was reading an article on this just a few days ago in every region and it had stats through the gov I'll try and find it. Oddly enough sofa I haven't seen a decline in moose in the areas in 3 and 8 I hunt .. averages around 80-110 every year immatures being shot every year weather it's a friend myself or father it happens. I'm not sure about this whole animals shortage as was sayed... I think moose is a major problem in 7A declining drastically over the past few years but around the okanagan and 3 ... I guess it depends how far off the beaten path you get.

[rgn5hunt]

Mr Sofa King, I was lucky enough to be delivering a moose to 1 of the local butcher shops in dec 2013, we had a draw for 5-15. A new pickup rolled in with 3 dudes and they had 2 antlerless moose. As a hunter I tried striking up a chat with them but they did not want to chat or even make eye contact. I quizzed the butcher when we were filling out the paper work and he was pretty busy. I had a good look at the chart the other party filled out the portions of the sheet that asked for registered status numbers, sex of moose ,and region. None of these dudes live on a reserve, they never looked like first nations at all, but at least one of them had a status number, a brand new 4x4 with a handy capped marker hanging in the windshield. that's 1 of 2 similar true stories with semi first nations.

[Husky7mm]

doesnt count.
we are talking about b.c.
we have actual terrain, where's a wolf gonna hide in alberta?
haha
Tons of bush in Alberta, tons and tons of big river valleys, rolling foothills and muskeg swamps. Lots of places to hide. I see wolf tracks and find kills regularly but actually see the wolves hardly ever.
Why do you comment on things you know nothing about ?

[Husky7mm]

Another thing I have experienced that makes me ? hunters impact

In Alberta they have MU's that are GOS season for deer starting in Sept and than the odd MU that will borders these that is archery only Sept-Oct and than GOS in Nov. Same habitat, same access, and same predator populations yet you will notice a difference in population and quality of bucks in the MU's with the shorter GOS.

Before someone says it no these are not farmland but bush country crown land

These experiences make me ? what impact hunters truly make

Well said, and I would like to further add that any time there is a liberal female season it is to reduce that species' number.

[aggiehunter]

I wunder if it will get back to the question

[Huevos]

Solutions mentioned.
Change length of season.
Predator control.
Political suicide.
Reclaim access to previously inaccessible areas
And in some areas,populations are as healthy as ever.

[hunter1947]

Mainly human caused either directly or indirectly.
Hunter1947 everytime you find a bone in the bush doesn't mean it was killed by a cat or wolf.

I hear you yes a percentage is winter kill I take 50% of the fresh animal remains I find in the wild they are predator kills..

[hunter1947]

Solutions mentioned.
Change length of season.
Predator control.
Political suicide.
Reclaim access to previously inaccessible areas
And in some areas,populations are as healthy as ever.


There probably are very few predators in these healthy areas..

[boxhitch]

Population and quality of bucks , has little to do with recruitment.
Would have to look at the history , maybe those current seasons are the result of or a reaction to a population change . If hunting has the impact that some people think it has , then the seasons should be fluid , .
The best managers can do is to try and manage to a particular male/female ratio , anything beyond that is just social .
If all the moms are having babies , changing a point restriction by a few days does nothing but impact hunters.
Archery seasons may help with that ratio , but some are in place just for the social and quality factors.
Another thing I have experienced that makes me ? hunters impact

In Alberta they have MU's that are GOS season for deer starting in Sept and than the odd MU that will borders these that is archery only Sept-Oct and than GOS in Nov. Same habitat, same access, and same predator populations yet you will notice a difference in population and quality of bucks in the MU's with the shorter GOS.

Before someone says it no these are not farmland but bush country crown land

These experiences make me ? what impact hunters truly make

[boxhitch]

I hear you yes a percentage is winter kill I take 50% of the fresh animal remains I find in the wild they are predator kills..Good info W
How do you tell the difference between a predator kill and a natural death that is being preyed upon ?

[hunter1947]

Good info W
How do you tell the difference between a predator kill and a natural death that is being preyed upon ?


When I find prey kills summer time late summer months are by predator kills as there is no threats of starvation during the months of summer late fall,,I give it 50% to all fresh prey kills I find during winter spring months from predators this is when I see lots of predator tracks within the area when no predator tracks within the area the prey is likely caused by winter kill ,,I might be right or wrong just my thoughts..

[Husky7mm]

This is the most logical post I've seen in this thread. During a populations and communities course I took I learned there is always a lagging cycle in predator-prey relationships, the classic example is snowshoe hare and lynx. Look up the graph of it. Basically in an ecosystem that isn't tampered with (such as predator's controlled), the prey experience a population boom, that produces tons of predators, predators eat all the prey and starve. This allows the prey to boom again...and it repeats.

The "new wilderness" is anything but natural. Man made activities of all types has created huge amounts of easy access and connectivity and tipped the hunting in favour of preadators. Gone are the days of isolated pockets of winter range and safe havens. Predators ( mainly wolves) have to put very little effort and energy into covering huge amounts of country nowadays. Success for them is unnaturally high and they are booming because of it. A peak Lynx population effects mostly hare and other small game. A large spike in the wolf population effects all animals. After they deplete the large game they move to small game and can leave an area void of game for quite some time. They only move on if a territory is not claimed by other wolves. By allowing their numbers to be unnaturally high management and wolf lovers are setting them up for death by starvation, conflict and internal strife. Killing them with kindness. All game pay the price for unnaturally high wolf numbers. I hazzard a guess that a cull will provide a better life for the ones that are sparred and obviously help all the other game in the proccess.

If I was a farmer and wolves were eating all my cattle it would easily be justified to protect those cattle and thin or remove those wolves.

As a hunter I want to see and know that there is a good supply of game in the bush. I want to feed myself and my family clean organic wild meat, not so much a cow in a feed lot that has been bedding in its own filth and getting shot with antibiotics to keep it alive until its reaches market size. Imo wolf management is the only way to ensure a good supply of wild meat. Whats wrong with that?

[Wild one]

Population and quality of bucks , has little to do with recruitment.
Would have to look at the history , maybe those current seasons are the result of or a reaction to a population change . If hunting has the impact that some people think it has , then the seasons should be fluid , .
The best managers can do is to try and manage to a particular male/female ratio , anything beyond that is just social .
If all the moms are having babies , changing a point restriction by a few days does nothing but impact hunters.
Archery seasons may help with that ratio , but some are in place just for the social and quality factors.

Agree some season are political but it is no secret archery season have lower success rates which ends in a lower harvest then GOS.

I don't know if it is fact or just some guy blowing smoke. 1 reason I was given for why Alberta has mu's that have long archery season and short GOS bordering mu's with long GOS is the higher population in the more restrictive mu spreads into the bordering less restrictive mu's.

Like I said this was just another hunter giving me this info so it could be BS. But I would say it seems to work that way

[hunter1947]

As the wolfs eat out an area to almost nile numbers of prey very little left they move on to a new area they keep doing this and in years time to come they will move back into the same area that they had devastated the numbers of the prey years earlier its a big circle the wolfs might travel 400k on there circle of travel that's why the wolfs have to be controlled in numbers..

just look at yellow stone national park there where no wolfs there 20 years ago lots of prey animals then they our wildlife branch gave a pack of wolfs to the wildlife branch in northern Montana after 20 yeas had passed there are very few animals left within this northern state the wolves cleaned house as they developed into big numbers over the past 20 years.. ..

[Wild one]

As the wolfs eat out an area to almost nile numbers of prey very little left they move on to a new area they keep doing this and in years time to come they will move back into the same area that they had devastated the numbers of the prey years earlier its a big circle the wolfs might travel 400k on there circle of travel that's why the wolfs have to be controlled in numbers..

just look at yellow stone national park there where no wolfs there 20 years ago lots of prey animals then they our wildlife branch gave a pack of wolfs to the wildlife branch in northern Montana after 20 yeas had passed there are very few animals left within this northern state the wolves cleaned house as they developed into big numbers over the past 20 years.. ..

Predators are an issue that needs to be managed in many areas. You are correct it is an issue that needs to be addressed and you are not the first I have heard reports from with this being a problem in the EK.

Like I said early in this thread not all areas have the same problems or combination of them. There are locations in BC predators are not the big factor and in others they are. This is why we need to look at each area and look at what is needed there. There really is no fix all solution for all of BC.

Understand your concern in your area and you maybe correct predator are the big factor in the EK I don't have experience in that part of BC

[steel_ram]

Wolves are a symptom of a bigger problem. A band aid isn't going to cure the disease. If wolves "clean house" they will eventually die off. They can only move to new territories so many times. Kind of like we humans are starting to figure out. Only problem is, when wolves "clean house", are there going to be enough of a certain species, such as BC.s Southern Caribou, to replenish the herd.
Wolves are not the reason wildlife populations are falling in some area's. We are.

[6616]

Good thread and some good points. Here's another thought you may not have thought of: Are our expectations just too high? Back in the '50's and early 60's there were fewer ungulates, less habitat, a few wolves, but everything seemed stable and balanced. Then came the rapid expansion of clear-cutting in the mid '60's, '70's and '80's. Entire valleys and their tributaries were logged off. Re-planting was 10 years behind. Modern silviculture methods were not in use yet and all these massive clear-cuts were suddenly in a high state of suitability for wildlife for long periods of time. Major expansions in elk and mule deer (East Kootenay) and moose (Caribou) occurred. Many of todays hunters grew up in this golden era of inflated wildlife populations and mistaken thought that was the norm..! Those were artificially high populations and were temporary at best but the real downside of it is that they spawned the high wolf populations we see today. We probably will never see those population densities again because logging will never again return to the level that occurred in those years. We could see much better densities than we have now if we could control the wolves because now that they're here they're here to stay, and if we just sit back and do nothing about wolf control there is going to be very little ungulate biomass left over for hunters once all these wolves are fed.

[Grolar]

I little behind the wolf cull......is there any voting or anything....or is it happening

[Husky7mm]

Wolves are a symptom of a bigger problem. A band aid isn't going to cure the disease. If wolves "clean house" they will eventually die off. They can only move to new territories so many times. Kind of like we humans are starting to figure out. Only problem is, when wolves "clean house", are there going to be enough of a certain species, such as BC.s Southern Caribou, to replenish the herd.
Wolves are not the reason wildlife populations are falling in some area's. We are.

I agree completely. The rub is that industry, recreatation, farming and urban sprall are not likely to cease and the wilderness is not going to be reverted back to the way it was so other solutions need to be implamented instead. Realistic and logical solutions. Manage wolf numbers or except poor big game numbers. Its really at this point in the game only as complicated as we allow it to be.

[hunter1947]

I don't get it in the regulations why have a closure time frame on elevation season and on wolf limited number you can take in a season ??? in hi wolf populated regions most hunters never see a wolf in order to shoot at a wolf my thoughts where there is a hi concentration of wolfs within a region should be open year round unlimited numbers a hunter can take..

Young being born and then the mother gets shot in a GOS in the earl summer months these pups will die and this is good this helps control the wolf population take out the wolf pups and your stopping the recruitment of wolfs,,just my thoughts,,wolves are just one of the problem its a big circle on everything and to me it seams that there is very little being done about all....

[one-shot-wonder]

,,just my thoughts,,wolves are just one of the problem its a big circle on everything and to me it seams that there is very little being done about all....
Little is being done cause hunters prioritize other things before predator hunting..... Shed hunting for one is 10 times more popular than chasing wolves and coyotes. Just think of the dent you would make in the predator population in your neck of the Woods if your time allocation was even split between chasing sheds and chasing dogs/cats........ Just sayin

[steel_ram]

Little is being done cause hunters prioritize other things before predator hunting..... Shed hunting for one is 10 times more popular than chasing wolves and coyotes. Just think of the dent you would make in the predator population in your neck of the Woods if your time allocation was even split between chasing sheds and chasing dogs/cats........ Just sayin

Not much of a dent at all. Wolves are very difficult to hunt. Most are taken incidentally, perhaps while shed hunting or out cruising. Are we putting a dent in the deer, elk, moose population when we legally and deliberately hunt them? Same argument? We all know there are bigger issues at play.

[hunter1947]

Little is being done cause hunters prioritize other things before predator hunting..... Shed hunting for one is 10 times more popular than chasing wolves and coyotes. Just think of the dent you would make in the predator population in your neck of the Woods if your time allocation was even split between chasing sheds and chasing dogs/cats........ Just sayin


Many places where there are wolfs right now you can't get close to them private property every where here in the EK you ask the land owners if you can hunt on there property they say no stay off my property I have asked many farm owners over the past 4 years living here if I can trap wolf on there property they told me to go get lost I am sick of asking..

[HarryToolips]

How could deactivating a road possibly give vulnerable species a better chance from the preds?

I have found it harder to predator hunt with all the de-activations and atv restrictions, as I mainly predator hunt to help the moose out for the day I finally get an LEH (0/Lifetime of LEH Moose in Reg5)

It is well documented that opening up access opens up access for predators too...when hiking through old-growth forests that naturally have lots of blowdown, I see lots of ungulate sign, and rarely pred sign except in lower elevation semi open forests... I find the most ungulate sign in areas of old-growth forests near re-planted cut-blocks 10-15 years old, a good mix of forage, and good blowdown to escape the preds..just my observations which is another reason why I believe it's good to keep more old-growth forests, instead of mowing 95% of them down like I see in areas around here..

[steel_ram]

Try to chase a deer, moose etc. through the forest and it will be gone. Try chasing one when you can run on a road (if your in shape) and you will eventually catch it, especially if you have partners working as a team to push it or head it off. A person can run down a deer in the open and a big dog can do the very same to that human. Deactivating roads should include not only tearing them up, but replanting them.

[olympia]

aside from any industry, habitat destruction, or anything else, I think the #1 biggest problem is allowing people to slaughter whatever they want, whenever, simply because of their race.
and making them exempt from practically every single law there is that every other person HAS to follow or be punished.

lol I knew you post something like that, do you have any stats percentage wise how much is lost to industry, wolves and the natives you hate so much. If you do im all ears

[Daybreak]

It would be really hard to provide statistics of the FN slaugh, I mean harvest when the FN have no obligation to report to anyone when they take multiple cow moose in January. In the last two years I have personally found 3 moose taken out of season and when the CO's were given details they assured me they knew who was doing it and no action could or would be taken. That's 3 cow moose that did not make it through to spring to calve. Sickening.

[olympia]

It would be really hard to provide statistics of the FN slaugh, I mean harvest when the FN have no obligation to report to anyone when they take multiple cow moose in January. In the last two years I have personally found 3 moose taken out of season and when the CO's were given details they assured me they knew who was doing it and no action could or would be taken. That's 3 cow moose that did not make it through to spring to calve. Sickening.

indeed it is sickening but this "Sofa King" takes a shot at natives in an obsessive compulsive manner, at first it was funny, now its alarming.

[Daybreak]

Everyone has different levels of tolerance and what they find alarming. I am far more alarmed about some FN practises than I am about a person who has a low tolerance for their practises. Who's the real problem and who's decimating the animals?

[Wild one]

indeed it is sickening but this "Sofa King" takes a shot at natives in an obsessive compulsive manner, at first it was funny, now its alarming.

Unfortunately with some FN abusing there rights and no enforcement when they are caught most of the time it has caused many to be beyond frustrated.

Some areas truly are effected by this issue yet there is little to no effort to change it.

With the lack of effort put forward to change this issue and that many are told they are a racist for speaking up it is going to make people really angry.

Right no but not hard to see how some get this way. Ignore the fact this is a race of people given extra rights and abuse them with little repercussion and most would be more understanding at their anger

Look at what is going on right now with allocations not every GO brought this forward but yet there are many now who want them all gone.

[olympia]

Unfortunately with some FN abusing there rights and no enforcement when they are caught most of the time it has caused many to be beyond frustrated.

Some areas truly are effected by this issue yet there is little to no effort to change it.

With the lack of effort put forward to change this issue and that many are told they are a racist for speaking up it is going to make people really angry.

Right no but not hard to see how some get this way. Ignore the fact this is a race of people given extra rights and abuse them with little repercussion and most would be more understanding at their anger

Look at what is going on right now with allocations not every GO brought this forward but yet there are many now who want them all gone.

well hopefully that couple caught selling deer meat in cache creek gets in trouble if they are found guilty, you are right in saying some fn's take advantage. The govt needs to threaten the whole band and say ALL sustenance rights will be taken away if they as a "people" do not hash out a game plan for hunting and fighting poaching amongst themselves. Think of speed bumps, if a few of you cannot drive thru a parking lot without speeding than everyone will have to put up with speed bumps.

[Wild one]

well hopefully that couple caught selling deer meat in cache creek gets in trouble if they are found guilty, you are right in saying some fn's take advantage. The govt needs to threaten the whole band and say ALL sustenance rights will be taken away if they as a "people" do not hash out a game plan for hunting and fighting poaching amongst themselves. Think of speed bumps, if a few of you cannot drive thru a parking lot without speeding than everyone will have to put up with speed bumps.


Would be nice for the FN issues to end and we all have the same set of rules but I don't see this happening anytime soon

There should be at the min some form of quota for the band or individual FN's to atleast benefit game management. Would make it easier to deal with over harvest in some areas

[argyle1]

For sure you folks are right about a gutless bureaucracy that won't punish native poachers (natives who hunt outside the laws that do apply ie: don't hunt on their own traditional territory. or allow white people to use their status #) and won't face up to the greenies on predator issues (especially high black bear populations), but what is most conspicuous in it's absence here is the slaughter of game by the CNR and the huge kill by vehicles on highway 16.

The numbers for the highway are available from the CO's because the highway contractors must report every collision involving wildlife. The CNR does not report their numbers because they don't have to. They come under federal law, and it appears that the province does not have the power to demand these numbers.

When we asked about game fences along the railway similar to those on the Coquihalla, we were told no way, and only because the RR doesn't come under provincial jurisdiction.

I can only speak about the area I'm familiar with, between PG and Rupert. No doubt the CNR kills the most (from talking to many of their emplyees). The hi-way in my opinion is a close second, followed by predators and natives out of season. I doubt that the natives and predators together kill as much game as the highway does. I know that at one time there was talk of game fences in heavy game areas along hi-way 16, but it never happened.I don't know what percentage of the annual kill this combination is in a given year, but it is clearly huge.

In this area there is more and better moose habitat than I can recall in the last 60 years, and logging is responsible for this--the problem is that it is so accessable to vehicle traffic.