guide allotment numbers public info??

[xcaribooer]

I have often wondered if guide allotment numbers are available for us to see or if its a guarded secret that only outfitters have access to? the leh numbers are online for all the world to see so shouldn't the guide allotment numbers be available for the public to see as well?

my example is for my reg 3 spot I put in for moose every year, I have wondered how many permits the local outfitter gets and if he has to follow the same seasons as leh openings or does he have a longer season or what?

[adriaticum]

There are some guys I know who are not putting in for moose in 3 because they haven't won for 20 years.


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf

[xcaribooer]

I guess with some simple math you can figure it pretty close from that , what about season lengths for the guides?

[xcaribooer]

its still pretty vauge, if my area has the 85%/15% moose split and leh gets 14 oct bulls, 28 nov bulls and 20 nov cow/calf , does this mean the local guide gets 2.4 bulls oct, 4.9 bulls nov and 3.5 nov cow/calf?? do they round up or down?
I guess my point is that there is not a source available to the public that im aware of with real numbers like this and a breakdown of their season length vs the leh seasons

[bassplayer]

There are some guys I know who are not putting in for moose in 3 because they haven't won for 20 years.


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf
I put in for moose every year here in 8-09 and got drawn once 12 years ago. Back then there was something like 30 draws available for October where i hunt. Now there's like 1 or 2 draws available for the Oct hunt. Last October the local guide and outfitter stopped in at my camp to talk to my buddy. The outfitter was trying to help his daughter fill her 8-09, October LEH moose draw. Gee. What are the chances that the local guide and outfitters own daughter drew one of the LEH moose draws for 8-09? Anybody that has ever put in for a region 8-09 moose draw knows what the chances are of being drawn for that one lol.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

its still pretty vauge, if my area has the 85%/15% moose split and leh gets 14 oct bulls, 28 nov bulls and 20 nov cow/calf , does this mean the local guide gets 2.4 bulls oct, 4.9 bulls nov and 3.5 nov cow/calf?? do they round up or down?
I guess my point is that there is not a source available to the public that im aware of with real numbers like this and a breakdown of their season length vs the leh seasons


Of course it doesn't go on the # of leh given out. If the success rate is say 50% then you can cut your estimate in half.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I put in for moose every year here in 8-09 and got drawn once 12 years ago. Back then there was something like 30 draws available for October where i hunt. Now there's like 1 or 2 draws available for the Oct hunt. Last October the local guide and outfitter stopped in at my camp to talk to my buddy. The outfitter was trying to help his daughter fill her 8-09, October LEH moose draw. Gee. What are the chances that the local guide and outfitters own daughter drew one of the LEH moose draws for 8-09? Anybody that has ever put in for a region 8-09 moose draw knows what the chances are of being drawn for that one lol.

I bet Christy had some strings pulled! I bet that is it.

[GoatGuy]

I bet Christy had some strings pulled! I bet that is it.
Guide-outfitters giving friends and family moose tags is nothing new.

I'm sure you're well aware of that.

[boxhitch]

what about season lengths for the guides? They have to follow the same regulations as anyone else in the province.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Guide-outfitters giving friends and family moose tags is nothing new.

I'm sure you're well aware of that.

If you say so GG, your word is gospel.We will go with your version.

[2chodi]

They have to follow the same regulations as anyone else in the province.

While that is true, things can play out differently for each residency group. For example, if you draw a bison LEH authorization you get to hunt for a 2-week period. A GO's hunter can hunt for as long as he or she wants and can hunt at any time, as long as they are within the range of dates for the LEH season. The GO can decide to take all of their hunters at the beginning of the season or spread them out over the duration.

[boxhitch]

Good point on the bison . but its probably good the RHs are spread out in dates , more of a quality hunt ;)

[bridger]

If you say so GG, your word is gospel.We will go with your version.

also so trade for goods and services with other business' ie generators, tires, etc

[chilcotin hillbilly]

also so trade for goods and services with other business' ie generators, tires, etc

What is the issue if he want to give a tag away for tires? He won't be in business very long.
If the LEH tag is that hard to draw the outfitter would have next to no quota, he would not give a tag to anyone without payment. Or maybe he would according to GG.

[GoatGuy]

They have to follow the same regulations as anyone else in the province.

Outfitters are not limited to a proportional 'share' during LEH hunts.

Moose, bison, sheep hunts that are split into periods do not have the same rules applied to outfitters as residents.

[GoatGuy]

What is the issue if he want to give a tag away for tires? He won't be in business very long.
If the LEH tag is that hard to draw the outfitter would have next to no quota, he would not give a tag to anyone without payment. Or maybe he would according to GG.

Pretty common knowledge, including in Region 5.

Know a few people who were given tags for moose by friends who own territories to make a look like they're selling hunts. Nothing new there. It's a failure in the system.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What is the issue if he want to give a tag away for tires? He won't be in business very long.
If the LEH tag is that hard to draw the outfitter would have next to no quota, he would not give a tag to anyone without payment. Or maybe he would according to GG.

what about in areas where spike fork seasons are included into the resident share while LEH permits are hard to draw. GO's quota is relative to total residents' harvest. no??

[tuner]

If the outfitting industry is on such dire economic ground, how are these concessions(especially) up north,commanding such huge asking prices? If outfitters can trade tags for tires,it implies to me that they're were not making very good use of their allotments, and should not be asking for more.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

what about in areas where spike fork seasons are included into the resident share while LEH permits are hard to draw. GO's quota is relative to total residents' harvest. no??


Bassplayer was the one who was making assumptions. If 8-09 is so tough to draw and there are only a couple LEH tags do the math. even with a spike fork season the AAH would be a small amount, I would be surprised if the outfitter in question had more then 1 or 2 tags a year tops. Do you really think he would give one to his daughter as GG is suggesting.
GG does his best to spin any tale that will insight anger in a few hoping they will do the pot stirring for him.

[dbergen69]

It seems pretty ridiculous to me that the actual guide allocations and harvest numbers are not easily available to the public. Wildlife is a public resource. With forestry I can find each companies allocation of timber, actual harvest, and tax billed on the logs. Should be the same with wildlife.

[Sitkaspruce]

If you say so GG, your word is gospel.We will go with your version.

CH, it was happening while I was guiding. When the crunch started to hit the GO's, they had "quota" that had not been filled and GOS areas that they took friends on hunts. They just had to pay the Royalties (plus resident tags and licence).

I knew of a couple GO's that traded hunts for hunts or fishing trips every year.

The "underground economy" is alive and well, even in the GO business.

Cheers

SS

[GoatGuy]

Bassplayer was the one who was making assumptions. If 8-09 is so tough to draw and there are only a couple LEH tags do the math. even with a spike fork season the AAH would be a small amount, I would be surprised if the outfitter in question had more then 1 or 2 tags a year tops. Do you really think he would give one to his daughter as GG is suggesting.
GG does his best to spin any tale that will insight anger in a few hoping they will do the pot stirring for him.

At this point the allocation for that territory would be 5 per year, so a quota of up to 8 a year.

Have two friends who were given tags in Region 8, know a few others. Common knowledge.

[GoatGuy]

CH, it was happening while I was guiding. When the crunch started to hit the GO's, they had "quota" that had not been filled and GOS areas that they took friends on hunts. They just had to pay the Royalties (plus resident tags and licence).

I knew of a couple GO's that traded hunts for hunts or fishing trips every year.

The "underground economy" is alive and well, even in the GO business.

Cheers

SS
CH knows that.

Doing his best to attempt to trash everybody else on a personal level .....again.

[one-shot-wonder]

I had a GO in R8 tell me himself he gave a youth a moose tag......then waited for a pat on the back.

[flyboy]

Non hunters of BC need to now about these GIFTS. Last they heard was the outfitters need more allocation to stay profitable and save jobs. They were not advised by MR THOMPSON it was so they can give their friends some free hunts!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bearvalley]

If the outfitting industry is on such dire economic ground, how are these concessions(especially) up north,commanding such huge asking prices? If outfitters can trade tags for tires,it implies to me that they're were not making very good use of their allotments, and should not be asking for more.

I doubt that many northern outfitters are trading tags for tires. As for concession prices, it's all about supply and demand, there are only so many guiding territories out there.
The operators having economical hardship are the ones that took a reduction in quota due to the 2007 policy, the same policy that had more to do with lowering non resident hunter numbers than the economy crunch did. Good operators that had quota also had the hunting clientele to use it.
Not to many outfitters are asking for more, most just want to know what their share is and get on with running their business. Maybe when the dust settles some of us will get on with making more hunting opportunities. The rest (resident hunters and outfitters) will cash in by shooting what they can shoot, if the animals are there.
One comment on the last 2 months of postings on the allocation issue is " if bullshit was water there must be a lot of good swimmers on HBC ". IMO!

[lange1212]

They have to follow the same regulations as anyone else in the province.

Your wrong!

In many cases residents are restricted to LEH that are fractured into a series of shortened seasons. Yet GO's can hunt unrestricted throughout the entire season period most often targeting the rut to harvest the majority of their moose. This is just one example.

[SAVAGEONE]

I bet Christy had some strings pulled! I bet that is it.
which strings did she have pulled??? to her bikinis???

[troutseeker]

It seems ridiculous and illegal to trade moose tags for tires, generators, hand jobs, what a bunch of losers...

[boxhitch]

Your wrong!

In many cases residents are restricted to LEH that are fractured into a series of shortened seasons. Yet GO's can hunt unrestricted throughout the entire season period most often targeting the rut to harvest the majority of their moose. This is just one example. Glad you pointed that out , :) but I specifically said 'anyone' not 'everyone' .

(3) In making regulations under subsection (1), the minister may define classes of applicants and make different regulations for different classes of applicants.
(c) do other things necessary for the purposes of this section.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

CH, it was happening while I was guiding. When the crunch started to hit the GO's, they had "quota" that had not been filled and GOS areas that they took friends on hunts. They just had to pay the Royalties (plus resident tags and licence).

I knew of a couple GO's that traded hunts for hunts or fishing trips every year.

The "underground economy" is alive and well, even in the GO business.

Cheers

SS

I am sure it happened, I don't doubt it. This would have been back in the days of use it or loose it.I don't blame them. Trading hunts or trips are just fine as well.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

At this point the allocation for that territory would be 5 per year, so a quota of up to 8 a year.

Have two friends who were given tags in Region 8, know a few others. Common knowledge.

5 per year and 8 a year please enlighten me.

[Fisher-Dude]

So now with the Thomson Poachers' Handout, I imagine a GO can take his buddies out to shoot moose over his quota, and is immune from prosecution.

Let the paying clients shoot the quota, then "book" a hunt for his beer-drinking buddy from the local tire shop, let him blast a moose, get a set of new mud boggers for his 2015 F350.

There's no offence for the outfitter, thanks to Thomson's Order in Council. And the tire man hired an outfitter, so he's all legal.

It's a free-for-all with no consequences (except for the moose), from what I can see.

[Wild one]

Trading services or goods is something a lot of business do not just GO's this is really not an issue in my opinion.

The only problem here is with GO's fighting for more tags saying they don't have enough to make a living. This is the only thing that makes these trades an issue in my opinion.

This issue is of little importance in this fight and efforts should be focused on other areas. The real issue is why are GO's in BC entitled to a split beyond 90/10 when this is the common split for North America?

The only point that can be made with GO's gifting tags is if they have enough to give away to friends why do they need more to make a living? Outside of this there is no gain pushing this issue.

Hunters are pissed and rightly so but focus on the important issues in this fight if you want to win it. I am seeing resident hunters emotions taking over on this forum now to the point some are talking down to other resident hunters and nit picking things of little importance with GO's

Focus on what is important and stick together or this will go no where

[Fisher-Dude]

Shooting over someone's quota for a set of new tires, with no repercussions, is a huge issue.

It certainly cheapens the value (I'm not talking about dollars) of our wildlife, which we resident hunters all hold so dear.

[bearvalley]

Shooting over someone's quota for a set of new tires, with no repercussions, is a huge issue.

It certainly cheapens the value (I'm not talking about dollars) of our wildlife, which we resident hunters all hold so dear.

Has it happened?
Can you prove it?
Or are you just passing off more BS?

[Fisher-Dude]

Has it happened?
Can you prove it?
Or are you just passing off more BS?

Did you get the mud terrains or the all terrains?

[Wild one]

Shooting over someone's quota for a set of new tires, with no repercussions, is a huge issue.

It certainly cheapens the value (I'm not talking about dollars) of our wildlife, which we resident hunters all hold so dear.

Over quota is an issue to be addressed if it is within their quota the fight is of little importance

The ruling that gave GO's the right to go beyond their quota needs to be addressed but that is a different issue than trading for goods and services. The focus on that issue should be how do you manage game when there is an ability for GO's to go beyond there allowable harvest.

Resident hunters need to look at this as fighting govt policies more than fighting GO's. Yes, the GOABC brought these changes forward but without the govt backing them they mean nothing.

Bringing important facts forward to the public and govt is what will win this. How these splits are done in the rest of Canada, The true number of tags resident hunter loose over this, The conservation efforts resident hunters bring forward, and showing liberals in bed with GOABC.

The biggest thing is questioning the govt on how they can justify these allocations when compared to the rest of North America and showing the true number of tags resident hunters loose from this. Showing crooked libs just helps put a nail in the coffin. Documentation is needed for this

The issue of GO's being able to go over quota is important but it is a smaller portion of this fight. Not one to ignore but we have a bigger fight that needs to be won after that it will be easier to address the over quota issue.

The big fight is with those who can change these policies the other will accomplish very little

[Alpine Addict]

Did you get the mud terrains or the all terrains?

I think the answer is passing more BS

[GoatGuy]

5 per year and 8 a year please enlighten me.
Admin guidelines

[bearvalley]

Over quota is an issue to be addressed if it is within their quota the fight is of little importance

The ruling that gave GO's the right to go beyond their quota needs to be addressed but that is a different issue than trading for goods and services. The focus on that issue should be how do you manage game when there is an ability for GO's to go beyond there allowable harvest.

To take this a step farther, going over allocation share is a step that needs to be addressed. The over inflated handout of LEH authorizations is a train wreck in the making.
A prime example is Spatsizi sheep. The allocation split is 60/40. The outfitter has a quota of 8. Resident hunters are issued 110 LEH authorizations for a 60% share with a targeted annual harvest of 12 rams when success factors are applied.
What happens if more than 11% of the resident hunters are successful in taking a ram. Suddenly they're in a situation of over harvest of allocation.
It's a complex mess on both sides with no easy fix.

[lange1212]

To take this a step farther, going over allocation share is a step that needs to be addressed. The over inflated handout of LEH authorizations is a train wreck in the making.
A prime example is Spatsizi sheep. The allocation split is 60/40. The outfitter has a quota of 8. Resident hunters are issued 110 LEH authorizations for a 60% share with a targeted annual harvest of 12 rams when success factors are applied.
What happens if more than 11% of the resident hunters are successful in taking a ram. Suddenly they're in a situation of over harvest of allocation.
It's a complex mess on both sides with no easy fix.

Spoken like a true guide that has no clue of the Spatsizi sheep issue, then flapping "train wreck" in an effort to impose increased restrictions on residents. Nice try to derail the conversation, dam you hooked me I'll bite!

1) There's no need for sheep LEH in Spatsizi for conservation reason and can easily sustain a full curl GOS hunt. The only reason its LEH is because its a park. In addition to that because its a Park the AH is much more conservative.
2) At one time there were only 50 LEH authorization provided to residents. With only 50 permits and average of 1-2 sheep were harvested by residents annually, way bellow their allocated share. The GO was 100% on his quota in most years and as a result of the LEH constraints placed on residents dam near had an exclusive sheep hunting area, in a park to boot.
3) Over years of trying to provide a regulation suite (remove hindering barriers) that allows resident to achieve their sheep AH, Parks and MoE agreed to provide 110 LEH authorization. Yes this did increase the resident harvest but still not able to achieve the AH of 11. In the best year residents harvested 9 sheep (did not achieve target harvest). Did I mention the GO is 100% successful, and fought any increase to resident opportunity, or regulatory moves that would provide residents to achieve their allocated share of the harvest.
4) In 2007 when the 60/40 spits came in the GO would have lost a couple of sheep from is quota. The total AH was 16, miraculously this was changed to 19. Do the math 40% of 19 = 7.6, round up and you get a quota of 8. So there you have it the Ministry manipulated (increased) the AH in Spatsizi Park so that the GO would maintain a quota of 8, knowing full well that even with 110 LEH authorizations residents would not achieve, and have not achieved their allocated harvest of 11 rams, And you think LEH is a problem.

Seek to gain the facts before you spout your anti resident crap, and push to hinder resident from achieving their allocated shares.

Have you been speaking to Reg and Ray and drinking their cool aid?

[GoatGuy]

To take this a step farther, going over allocation share is a step that needs to be addressed. The over inflated handout of LEH authorizations is a train wreck in the making.
A prime example is Spatsizi sheep. The allocation split is 60/40. The outfitter has a quota of 8. Resident hunters are issued 110 LEH authorizations for a 60% share with a targeted annual harvest of 12 rams when success factors are applied.
What happens if more than 11% of the resident hunters are successful in taking a ram. Suddenly they're in a situation of over harvest of allocation.
It's a complex mess on both sides with no easy fix.

When we apply admin guidelines the outfitter quota with admin guidelines is 12/year, the allocation is 8. In this case the outfitter is allowed to harvest 50% more than the annual "allocation" in any one year. Now, with the order in council the outfitter can harvest more than 12 per year, as they are not required to follow their quota.

On the resident side the annual allocation is 12 rams. We know right out of the gates that 40-50% of the LEH winners won't buy a tag, so that brings it down to 55-65 resident hunters, and those are people who buy a tag, not people who actually go hunting. We know the success rate is going to be somewhere between 15-20%, so that brings us to 8-14 rams, right in the ballpark - probably below the resident allocation over the long-term. You will notice there is no "administrative guidelines" for resident hunters.

Now if resident hunters had an "administrative guideline" of 30%, just like outfitters, that brings the allowable number of rams harvested in one year up to 18. We know residents will not harvest 18 in one year.

Link to admin guidelines:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/AdministrativeGuidelinesProcedure.pdf


Not a "train wreck", just numbers. At the end of the day residents have never over-harvested their allocation in Spatsizi.

[bearvalley]

Spoken like a true guide that has no clue of the Spatsizi sheep issue, then flapping "train wreck" in an effort to impose increased restrictions on residents. Nice try to derail the conversation, dam you hooked me I'll bite!

1) There's no need for sheep LEH in Spatsizi for conservation reason and can easily sustain a full curl GOS hunt. The only reason its LEH is because its a park. In addition to that because its a Park the AH is much more conservative.
2) At one time there were only 50 LEH authorization provided to residents. With only 50 permits and average of 1-2 sheep were harvested by residents annually, way bellow their allocated share. The GO was 100% on his quota in most years and as a result of the LEH constraints placed on residents dam near had an exclusive sheep hunting area, in a park to boot.
3) Over years of trying to provide a regulation suite (remove hindering barriers) that allows resident to achieve their sheep AH, Parks and MoE agreed to provide 110 LEH authorization. Yes this did increase the resident harvest but still not able to achieve the AH of 11. In the best year residents harvested 9 sheep (did not achieve target harvest). Did I mention the GO is 100% successful, and fought any increase to resident opportunity, or regulatory moves that would provide residents to achieve their allocated share of the harvest.
4) In 2007 when the 60/40 spits came in the GO would have lost a couple of sheep from is quota. The total AH was 16, miraculously this was changed to 19. Do the math 40% of 19 = 7.6, round up and you get a quota of 8. So there you have it the Ministry manipulated (increased) the AH in Spatsizi Park so that the GO would maintain a quota of 8, knowing full well that even with 110 LEH authorizations residents would not achieve, and have not achieved their allocated harvest of 11 rams, And you think LEH is a problem.

Seek to gain the facts before you spout your anti resident crap, and push to hinder resident from achieving their allocated shares.

Have you been speaking to Reg and Ray and drinking their cool aid?

So after your long winded explanation the numbers stay the same. Is not there the chance of an over harvest of the AH when 110 LEH authorizations are handed out for a dozen or so rams?

[bearvalley]

When we apply admin guidelines the outfitter quota with admin guidelines is 12/year, the allocation is 8. In this case the outfitter is allowed to harvest 50% more than the annual "allocation" in any one year. Now, with the order in council the outfitter can harvest more than 12 per year, as they are not required to follow their quota.

On the resident side the annual allocation is 12 rams. We know right out of the gates that 40-50% of the LEH winners won't buy a tag, so that brings it down to 55-65 resident hunters, and those are people who buy a tag, not people who actually go hunting. We know the success rate is going to be somewhere between 15-20%, so that brings us to 8-14 rams, right in the ballpark - probably below the resident allocation over the long-term. You will notice there is no "administrative guidelines" for resident hunters.

Now if resident hunters had an "administrative guideline" of 30%, just like outfitters, that brings the allowable number of rams harvested in one year up to 18. We know residents will not harvest 18 in one year.

Link to admin guidelines:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/AdministrativeGuidelinesProcedure.pdf


Not a "train wreck", just numbers. At the end of the day residents have never over-harvested their allocation in Spatsizi.

"Ifs and guesses" aren't hard numbers. I realize that to date there has not been a recorded resident over harvest in Spatsizi. The ground work is there for it to happen.

[bridger]

So after your long winded explanation the numbers stay the same. Is not there the chance of an over harvest of the AH when 110 LEH authorizations are handed out for a dozen or so rams?

if there is an over harvest on leh it's easy to cut resident authorizations back the next couple years to compensate. Not so with quotas. You guys never will admit that to the industry: money comes first, the resource second, and resident hunters are something you would rather do without. Sorry to say it but this last allocation end run you guys pulled shows the true colours of the guiding industry. Wildlife means money nothing else matters.

[Paulyman]

If you say so GG, your word is gospel.We will go with your version.

Just please stop digging yourself in further.

Read documented proof, IT DOES HAPPEN
vvvvvv

http://m.rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/communities/belle_fourche/family-hunt-brought-in-big-grizzly-time-with-brothers/article_7b93b912-4ccc-5d46-9562-f124b79c846f.html?mobile_touch=true

[GoatGuy]

"Ifs and guesses" aren't hard numbers. I realize that to date there has not been a recorded resident over harvest in Spatsizi. The ground work is there for it to happen.

There has been a consistent under-harvest in Spatsizi ---- not a "not been a recorded resident over harvest." The ground work is not there for it to happen. The resident allocation is 12, it is not being acheived. If we include a resident "admin guideline" that goes up to 18 - then we are all on a level playing field.

Everything you do in life has a level of uncertainty. Even insurance claim, medical operation, decision you make has "ifs and guesses". If you are concerned about "ifs and guesses" don't go outside of your house, eat meat that isn't cooked well done, drink unpasteurized milk, ride a horse and on and on.

The strident drama queen skirt doesn't fit.

[Wild one]

To take this a step farther, going over allocation share is a step that needs to be addressed. The over inflated handout of LEH authorizations is a train wreck in the making.
A prime example is Spatsizi sheep. The allocation split is 60/40. The outfitter has a quota of 8. Resident hunters are issued 110 LEH authorizations for a 60% share with a targeted annual harvest of 12 rams when success factors are applied.
What happens if more than 11% of the resident hunters are successful in taking a ram. Suddenly they're in a situation of over harvest of allocation.
It's a complex mess on both sides with no easy fix.

Not a fan of wildlife management in BC in general but lets not add another problem to the mix

If you see an issue with the LEH numbers fine but it does not make letting GO's go over quota a good idea

[lange1212]

So after your long winded explanation the numbers stay the same. Is not there the chance of an over harvest of the AH when 110 LEH authorizations are handed out for a dozen or so rams?

Clear answer, it has never happened to date and if you read my response I stated that LEH is not required for conservation reasons and is only applied because it's a Park.

Your lack of Spatsizi shines through as you clearly are not aware of the large ecological reserve within the Park that encompasses the best sheep habitat. No hunting in the ecological reserve so in effect establishes sheep refuge.

Now I ask you why are you not concerned about the application of Admin Guidelines and over harvest of quota?

Why are you focused on LEH whereby it has proven to be a hindering barrier to resident harvest?

Why are you focused on this at all given that the area can sustain a GOS full curl sheep season?

Reg, Ray are you out there? How about a response from one of you.

[bearvalley]

Clear answer, it has never happened to date and if you read my response I stated that LEH is not required for conservation reasons and is only applied because it's a Park.

Your lack of Spatsizi shines through as you clearly are not aware of the large ecological reserve within the Park that encompasses the best sheep habitat. No hunting in the ecological reserve so in effect establishes sheep refuge.

Now I ask you why are you not concerned about the application of Admin Guidelines and over harvest of quota?

Why are you focused on LEH whereby it has proven to be a hindering barrier to resident harvest?

Why are you focused on this at all given that the area can sustain a GOS full curl sheep season?

Reg, Ray are you out there? How about a response from one of you.

I'm not concerned about the application of Admin Guidelines and over harvest of quota at all.
I'm just pointing out that annual over harvest by resident hunters is a reality under the current mandate of handing out an inflated number of LEH authorizations.
I see this no different than the loophole that Guides are being accused of using to over harvest.
How long do you think a GOS season in Spatsizi would produce the number of full curl rams that it does annually under the present system.
1 year?
Maybe 2 or 3?
Or should we go to a banana horn season so it lasts for 5?

Of coarse my thoughts are coming from someone that has a complete lack of knowledge of the Spatsizi area.
I'm sure Ray & Reg are going to support you on opening the door for a GOS.

[flyboy]

Just to back up a couple posts.

The newspaper article about the grizzly hunt in " OUR FAMILY HUNTING CAMP IN BC?"

ANZAC WILDERNESS OUTFITTERS on GOABC website
OWNER-
LLOYD WEAVER
2440 WESTVIEW
SPEARFISH,SD
57783

Am I missing something here? Is this not a foreign owned outfitter. Is this not illegal in BC?

[bearvalley]

if there is an over harvest on leh it's easy to cut resident authorizations back the next couple years to compensate. Not so with quotas. You guys never will admit that to the industry: money comes first, the resource second, and resident hunters are something you would rather do without. Sorry to say it but this last allocation end run you guys pulled shows the true colours of the guiding industry. Wildlife means money nothing else matters.

It blows me away that after all the time you spent at the negotiating table you still don't get how allocation and quota work.
Or are you just pretending you don't know so you can continue stirring the pot with BS?
You may think your the winner by propagating BS to the team, but I'll guarentee wildlife is the loser while you keep slinging shit.

[Huevos]

Pretty common knowledge, including in Region 5.

Know a few people who were given tags for moose by friends who own territories to make a look like they're selling hunts. Nothing new there. It's a failure in the system.

I'm a little confused here. Do you think that outfitters have some sort of different tags than residents? If a resident buys a moose tag, he can hunt a GOS, or I can guide him in my territory. I cannot just give a tag to someone. A resident has to be guided by an outfitter or an assistant guide licensed to do so in that area. If they are not accompanied by one, and shoot a moose that they don't have an LEH for, it is poaching. If you know of this happening, did you report it? If not, why not?
Also, if an outfitter gives a resident a hunt, does this not increase resident opportunity? I thought this was the goal here, less foreign hunters, more residents. Even if I want to shoot a moose in my area, I have to be guided by someone else. I was considering doing a youth hunt with a local kid next year, but wasn't aware that this would be an issue. Thought I would donate a hunt. would other members of the hunting community be opposed if I did that?

[40incher]

Now I ask you why are you not concerned about the application of Admin Guidelines and over harvest of quota?

Why are you focused on LEH whereby it has proven to be a hindering barrier to resident harvest?

Why are you focused on this at all given that the area can sustain a GOS full curl sheep season?


Why?! Cuz' he's just a guide apologist!

Trying to make sense with this mentality is like sucking jello through a straw ...

What the guides really want is for all Stone Sheep to be on LEH, play the Spatsizi "what if" game and watch BC resident harvest drop like a rock.

[1899]

"Ifs and guesses" aren't hard numbers. I realize that to date there has not been a recorded resident over harvest in Spatsizi. The ground work is there for it to happen.

You obviously missed the point.

[1899]

Just to back up a couple posts.

The newspaper article about the grizzly hunt in " OUR FAMILY HUNTING CAMP IN BC?"

ANZAC WILDERNESS OUTFITTERS on GOABC website
OWNER-
LLOYD WEAVER
2440 WESTVIEW
SPEARFISH,SD
57783

Am I missing something here? Is this not a foreign owned outfitter. Is this not illegal in BC?

Apparently not. Perhaps the certificate is being held in trust.

[Huevos]

Don't sheep have a full curl restriction? Is this not also a safeguard against over harvest? I'm not a sheep guy and haven't followed he issues surrounding sheep, but if we are not over harvesting now, and we are only taking mature rams, leaving good breeding stock, what would be the advantage of LEH for residents?

[GoatGuy]

I'm a little confused here. Do you think that outfitters have some sort of different tags than residents? If a resident buys a moose tag, he can hunt a GOS, or I can guide him in my territory. I cannot just give a tag to someone. A resident has to be guided by an outfitter or an assistant guide licensed to do so in that area. If they are not accompanied by one, and shoot a moose that they don't have an LEH for, it is poaching. If you know of this happening, did you report it? If not, why not?
Also, if an outfitter gives a resident a hunt, does this not increase resident opportunity? I thought this was the goal here, less foreign hunters, more residents. Even if I want to shoot a moose in my area, I have to be guided by someone else. I was considering doing a youth hunt with a local kid next year, but wasn't aware that this would be an issue. Thought I would donate a hunt. would other members of the hunting community be opposed if I did that?

Correct, they still send an assistant guide along.

No, this doesn't increase resident hunter opportunity as the outfitters who were giving tags to friends and family are complaining those were "full price" hunts.

I think you should as the owner of the outfit you run - he is well aware of it.

[GoatGuy]

I'm not concerned about the application of Admin Guidelines and over harvest of quota at all.
I'm just pointing out that annual over harvest by resident hunters is a reality under the current mandate of handing out an inflated number of LEH authorizations.
I see this no different than the loophole that Guides are being accused of using to over harvest.
How long do you think a GOS season in Spatsizi would produce the number of full curl rams that it does annually under the present system.
1 year?
Maybe 2 or 3?
Or should we go to a banana horn season so it lasts for 5?

Of coarse my thoughts are coming from someone that has a complete lack of knowledge of the Spatsizi area.
I'm sure Ray & Reg are going to support you on opening the door for a GOS.

The allocation issue is about the number of animals harvested. Resident hunters are not harvesting more than their allocation.

The big picture issue is guide-outfitters have been given too much of the allocation and thus too many animals. In many cases these are animals outfitters will never harvest and cannot sell.

It really is "that simple."

[lange1212]

I have often wondered if guide allotment numbers are available for us to see or if its a guarded secret that only outfitters have access to? the leh numbers are online for all the world to see so shouldn't the guide allotment numbers be available for the public to see as well?

my example is for my reg 3 spot I put in for moose every year, I have wondered how many permits the local outfitter gets and if he has to follow the same seasons as leh openings or does he have a longer season or what?

Back to the original post.

The data is available and suggest you call your Regional FLNRO office, ask who the Senior Biologist is, and have a talk with him/her.

Get his/her email and give him yours and ask for the data you seek and follow up with an email. If they are not able to provide the data, respond in an email and ask why.

Public information, and I've had no issues having provided in the past. Although with all the GOABC and Thomson shenanigans going on it wouldn't surprise me if the Ministry has instructed staff not to provide such data today. Let us know how you make out.

[Argali]

Back to the original post. The data is available and suggest you call your Regional FLNRO office, ask who the Senior Biologist is, and have a talk with him/her.. Good tips on how to get that informatio ... but this information should be publicly avaiable AND accessible, not hidden in a bioligists drawer, especially for those areas and species that are under LEH restrictions for residents. Anyone can look up how may LEH authorizations there were for a given species in each unit - so there should be a corresponding public display of GO allocations for the same species in the same units. I suppose some could argue that there can be more confidentiality of the GO allocation for species and areas with resident GOS seasons because if there is a GOS season, the allocation doesn't limit resident opportunity. However, it may affect resident success if the GO allocation is too high in a certain zone. So ... yes it should all be public.

[bearvalley]

The allocation issue is about the number of animals harvested. Resident hunters are not harvesting more than their allocation.

The big picture issue is guide-outfitters have been given too much of the allocation and thus too many animals. In many cases these are animals outfitters will never harvest and cannot sell.

It really is "that simple."

Really the "simple" solution to the over harvest issue is:
1- Allocation share splits (pretty much done)
2-Legislate the splits (coming)
3-Current wildlife inventories (hopefully in the near future)
Until this is done all the bickering is over nothing but possibly non-existent wildlife, spun numbers and guesses.

[lange1212]

Really the "simple" solution to the over harvest issue is:
1- Allocation share splits (pretty much done)
2-Legislate the splits (coming)
3-Current wildlife inventories (hopefully in the near future)
Until this is done all the bickering is over nothing but possibly non-existent wildlife, spun numbers and guesses.

1 - Not done and won't be what your dreaming for.
2 - Yep, but at the end of the day 90/10 for moose and elk - consider yourselves lucky if you see 25% of sheep, goat, and grizzly. Public overall won't stand for privatization of their wildlife. Political suicide and Christy and gang have come to realize that. The GOABC and Liberals have been caught with their hands in the publics cookie jar. The cookies are going to be put back and the lid slammed shut. Self preservation dude!
3 - Happening right now for moose in our Region.

[bearvalley]

3 - Happening right now for moose in our Region.

Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH?
Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management.
But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude!

[bridger]

Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH?
Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management.
But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude!

funny what money can do eh. Nothing to do with conservation or fairness. Politicians/guide outfitters equal money. You give the liberals $80,000 and they give you millions back. Nice arrangement. Think the political term is pork barrelling. As far as getting on with wildlife management what do you guys care. You are now economically viable. If you had put your money and efforts into wildlife management instead of buying favours from government we wouldn't be in this mess. This fight isn't over by a long ways.

[lange1212]

[QUOTE=bearvalley;1603114]Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH? Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management. But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude"]

Is there something you know that the rest of don't?

Perhaps another back room deal between the GOABC and Ministry?

Please tell.

[bearvalley]

[QUOTE=bearvalley;1603114]Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH? Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management. But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude"]

Is there something you know that the rest of don't?

Perhaps another back room deal between the GOABC and Ministry?

Please tell.

I dont do back room deals. Do you?

[GoatGuy]

Really the "simple" solution to the over harvest issue is:
1- Allocation share splits (pretty much done)
2-Legislate the splits (coming)
3-Current wildlife inventories (hopefully in the near future)
Until this is done all the bickering is over nothing but possibly non-existent wildlife, spun numbers and guesses.

Unfortunately, number 1 and 2 are going to come at a huge cost. Even if legislated I don't see this going away any time soon, or ever until it is changed or remedied.

Tough thing is the impact to the industry's social license.

[1899]

Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH?
Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management.
But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude!

The mistake you make is that he was never listening. Had he been listening he may have implemented one of the three recommendations presented to him by an independent 3rd party during negotiations.

[1899]

[QUOTE=bearvalley;1603114]Do you think they're going to put them all on LEH? Moose preservation, maybe eh' dude!
If I had to place a bet, I'd say Steve Thomson and staff are pretty much done with listening to echoes of the past and are ready to move forward with wildlife management. But what do I know, I could be wrong eh' dude"]

Is there something you know that the rest of don't?

Perhaps another back room deal between the GOABC and Ministry?

Please tell.

He obviously doesn't know who you are and is really stirring the pot.

[xcaribooer]

so I see the thread is hijacked by the issues of the day which is ok cause its what everybody is talking about but back to the original question ..I assume the answer is no, the actual guide allotment numbers , outfitter by outfitter, and season dates are not in printed form someplace for the public to see?? what happened to freedom of information?

[boxhitch]

.....my example is for my reg 3 spot I put in for moose every year, I have wondered how many permits the local outfitter gets and if he has to follow the same seasons as leh openings or does he have a longer season or what?I've been waiting to see how this thread plays out and maybe my curiosity would be answered but it didn't happen . So I'll ask the question -
If you did know the quota for the area you hunt , would it affect your plans ?

[boxhitch]

Don't sheep have a full curl restriction? Is this not also a safeguard against over harvest? Yes , the regulation is the end safe guard .

I'm not a sheep guy and haven't followed he issues surrounding sheep, but if we are not over harvesting now, and we are only taking mature rams, leaving good breeding stock, what would be the advantage of LEH for residents?No advantage to the residents , in fact it would impair hunting opportunities , have fewer residents in the mountains and likely reduce success numbers .

[Walksalot]

I've been waiting to see how this thread plays out and maybe my curiosity would be answered but it didn't happen . So I'll ask the question -
If you did know the quota for the area you hunt , would it affect your plans ?

I am not sure if it would effect my plans or not but it would add some credibility to the leh allocation strategy. Instead we have rumors of back room deals with suspicions of less than above board dealings. I have been putting in for leh moose in 8-09 since it's inception and to this date I have been unsuccessful. I have no problem with this as long as it is done fairly. A lottery is always a crap shoot. But when I hear that outfitters are taking friends and family on hunts to use up the quota allotted to the outfitter I think it adds a cloud of unfairness over the whole leh allocation strategy and the leh system as a whole.

[xcaribooer]

I've been waiting to see how this thread plays out and maybe my curiosity would be answered but it didn't happen . So I'll ask the question -
If you did know the quota for the area you hunt , would it affect your plans ?

it wouldn't affect my plans one bit, (in fact I know where the outfitters main moose camp is and ill make a point of hunting around it because it is prime country) it is more of a curiosity thing as far as the numbers go .
As far as their season lengths , I was just wondering if they had to play by leh rules or if they had all fall to hunt and were always allowed to hunt the prime rut time..my suspicions were confirmed on that one.

[Gamebuster]

it wouldn't affect my plans one bit, (in fact I know where the outfitters main moose camp is and ill make a point of hunting around it because it is prime country) it is more of a curiosity thing as far as the numbers go .
As far as their season lengths , I was just wondering if they had to play by leh rules or if they had all fall to hunt and were always allowed to hunt the prime rut time..my suspicions were confirmed on that one.

They can only hunt during the time a LEH hunt is happening. They do not have their own season timing.

[boxhitch]

I am not sure if it would effect my plans or not but it would add some credibility to the leh allocation strategy. Instead we have rumors of back room deals with suspicions of less than above board dealings. I have been putting in for leh moose in 8-09 since it's inception and to this date I have been unsuccessful. I have no problem with this as long as it is done fairly. A lottery is always a crap shoot. But when I hear that outfitters are taking friends and family on hunts to use up the quota allotted to the outfitter I think it adds a cloud of unfairness over the whole leh allocation strategy and the leh system as a whole.Real valid points. whether the LEH permit numbers are high enough and the RH success rate is such that they achieve their allocation ,,,,,or not . One would have to keep an eye on the hunter success stats , and hope the survey is somewhat accurate. Not all leh's have a compulsory inspection requirement .

[resident hunter]

The discussion should not be about the allocation,
Did you know?
Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are limited.
In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.




Species for residents only



Alberta

Goat



Saskatchewan

Caribou, elk, mule deer



Manitoba

Elk




Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest.
All rare species should be for residents only, end of the story,,,

[rgn5hunt]

I want to support this post and include populated resident areas with high demand from residents. Moose included. If odds are more than 3 or 4 to one, no more direct awards to non res.

[Buck]

The discussion should not be about the allocation,
Did you know?
Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are limited.
In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.



Species for residents only


Alberta
Goat


Saskatchewan
Caribou, elk, mule deer


Manitoba
Elk



Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest.
All rare species should be for residents only, end of the story,,,


I like the way you think.The problem is most folk on here are brainwashed into believing that Guide outfitters matter.Wake up folks time for a total rethink on resident priority.Only reason i would allow a small amount of Non resident Leh would be courteous to our neighbours a friendly gesture so to speak.Guide outfitters nothing but wildlife pimps as far as i'm concerned.

[Jagermeister]

They have to follow the same regulations as anyone else in the province.
Not so my friend. 2013 Order-in-Council 183 changed that. The guides can now exceed quota with impunity. Other regulations have been tailor made to the benefit of the guides.

[Wild one]

The discussion should not be about the allocation,
Did you know?
Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are limited.
In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.



Species for residents only


Alberta
Goat


Saskatchewan
Caribou, elk, mule deer


Manitoba
Elk



Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest.
All rare species should be for residents only, end of the story,,,

These are the kind of things that need to be brought forward in this fight

When GO's are already getting a larger % of the allocation than any other prov why are they entitled to more?

As shown they are also open to all species BC resident hunters are yet this is not the case across Canada why?

So have GO's in BC really been getting the short end of the stick or have already been receiving a more than fair deal compared to the rest of Canada?

It would be nice to see the Libs answers to these ?

[Huevos]

The discussion should not be about the allocation,
Did you know?
Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are limited.
In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.



Species for residents only


Alberta
Goat


Saskatchewan
Caribou, elk, mule deer


Manitoba
Elk



Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest.
All rare species should be for residents only, end of the story,,,
Did you know that goat is a once In a lifetime draw in Alberta? By your reasoning, we should close the doors to all non resident Canadians to a species that we can purchase an over the counter tag for each year in BC. Close the door to all friends and family that is a non resident? Seems short sighted and selfish. What constitutes rare?
Non residents can hunt elk, moose, and mule deer in Saskatchewan. I met a guy this week selling hunts at a show,

[Huevos]

I want to support this post and include populated resident areas with high demand from residents. Moose included. If odds are more than 3 or 4 to one, no more direct awards to non res.
This sounds more reasonable than some of the other suggestions I've read

[Wild one]

Did you know that goat is a once In a lifetime draw in Alberta? By your reasoning, we should close the doors to all non resident Canadians to a species that we can purchase an over the counter tag for each year in BC. Close the door to all friends and family that is a non resident? Seems short sighted and selfish. What constitutes rare?
Non residents can hunt elk, moose, and mule deer in Saskatchewan. I met a guy this week selling hunts at a show,

I would say he is referring to species that involve high odds draws. At least this is how I took it

[Huevos]

I would say he is referring to species that involve high odds draws. At least this is how I took it
In high draw odds areas? Hopefully not in GOS areas as well.

[tuner]

Sask. mule deer are resident only,no exceptions.

[Wild one]

In high draw odds areas? Hopefully not in GOS areas as well.

If there is GOS season I see no reason to not have an allocation personally

[yama49]

Did you know that goat is a once In a lifetime draw in Alberta? By your reasoning, we should close the doors to all non resident Canadians to a species that we can purchase an over the counter tag for each year in BC. Close the door to all friends and family that is a non resident? Seems short sighted and selfish. What constitutes rare?
Non residents can hunt elk, moose, and mule deer in Saskatchewan. I met a guy this week selling hunts at a show,

So you think its all right that I have to draw a grizzly bear tag, rose Elk tag, etc. But your family non resident can buy that tag off an outfitter?? If we are on draw, than no tags issued to outfitters, plain and simple

[tuner]

Has anybody been able to unearth the number of guide harvested animals per season,compared to the 3100 or so residents take through LEH? The government likes to point out that vast number of animals taken by RH are not affected by the allocation policy,yet they have never disclosed the guides annual harvest numbers.This is the smokescreen used to hide the most significant and important aspect of this policy.

[Huevos]

Sask. mule deer are resident only,no exceptions.
You sure about that? TW outfitters can shoot any species in their territory. I would say that would be an exception.

[Huevos]

So you think its all right that I have to draw a grizzly bear tag, rose Elk tag, etc. But your family non resident can buy that tag off an outfitter?? If we are on draw, than no tags issued to outfitters, plain and simple
I didn't say it was all right about anything. If you want a grizzly tag, maybe consider an area where the draw stats are .7 to 1. Who is stopping you from buying a tag off an outfitter? You act like this option is not available to you.
Do you hunt grizzlies for sustenance? If not, why not share your recreational opportunities with others?

[bearvalley]

I didn't say it was all right about anything. If you want a grizzly tag, maybe consider an area where the draw stats are .7 to 1. Who is stopping you from buying a tag off an outfitter? You act like this option is not available to you.
Do you hunt grizzlies for sustenance? If not, why not share your recreational opportunities with others?

To be clear the outfitter is not in the business of selling tags. The Provincial government does that, both resident and non resident tags alike. The outfitter is strictly providing guided hunts within his tenured area for non resident clients and residents as well if they wish to be guided within that tenure area.

[rgn5hunt]

TUNER, I spent a few hours looking for non res harvest data, it's well guarded. I talked to regional biologists and they are now helping to get some data through Victoria.

[Huevos]

It would be nice to have tag #s available for residents and outfitters on the same site. It would provide transparency. It would also be nice to have harvest data available for both as well. If something like this were available to the public, it would be a great hunt planning tool. A guy could see which areas get hunted hard by outfitters and residents alike. Could point out some under-utilized areas for better hunting.

[tuner]

I didn't say it was all right about anything. If you want a grizzly tag, maybe consider an area where the draw stats are .7 to 1. Who is stopping you from buying a tag off an outfitter? You act like this option is not available to you.
Do you hunt grizzlies for sustenance? If not, why not share your recreational opportunities with others?
I would say paying an outfitter 20 grand to hunt grizzly in your own province because you're unsuccessful in a LEH draw is not much of an option for most people. Does this seem fair to you? The province where you live,raise your children, work,pay taxes and so on unfairly stacks the odds against you in favour of wealthy non residents,does it seem fair?The idea that if you're unsuccessful in an LEH draw the option to hire a guide is a viable one,is ridiculous.You know that full well, it's offensive that someone would say such a thing.

[tuner]

TUNER, I spent a few hours looking for non res harvest data, it's well guarded. I talked to regional biologists and they are now helping to get some data through Victoria.
thanx for the effort ,i can't seem to locate it either.

[Huevos]

I would say paying an outfitter 20 grand to hunt grizzly in your own province because you're unsuccessful in a LEH draw is not much of an option for most people. Does this seem fair to you? The province where you live,raise your children, work,pay taxes and so on unfairly stacks the odds against you in favour of wealthy non residents,does it seem fair?The idea that if you're unsuccessful in an LEH draw the option to hire a guide is a viable one,is ridiculous.You know that full well, it's offensive that someone would say such a thing.
I had no intention of offending anyone. I am sorry. What about applying in an area where stats are .7 to 1. If you waited ten years and haven't been drawn why not try somewhere else? Maybe with grizzly it is too expensive to use a guide, but moose is definitely viable for a lot of residents to use a guide... And they do. Not all outfitters are out to screw residents. There are some that would provide residents with a very reasonable hunt if they asked.

[Walking Buffalo]

You sure about that? TW outfitters can shoot any species in their territory. I would say that would be an exception.


It sounds like TW operates on an Indian reserve. This is federal jurisdiction, not provincial.

[tuner]

I had no intention of offending anyone. I am sorry. What about applying in an area where stats are .7 to 1. If you waited ten years and haven't been drawn why not try somewhere else? Maybe with grizzly it is too expensive to use a guide, but moose is definitely viable for a lot of residents to use a guide... And they do. Not all outfitters are out to screw residents. There are some that would provide residents with a very reasonable hunt if they asked.
fair enough,but it doesn't change the fact that a resident may never draw a an LEH tag for a prized spieces,while a wealthy foriegn hunter can target the same quarry year after year.For most RH's hiring a guide is simply a luxury they cannot afford,nor should they be put into a position where they have to.

[bearvalley]

Everyone floats in a different boat. Each year a percentage of resident hunters participate in guided hunts. They've figure out that a quality trip far outweighs the cash outlay difference of going on several unsuccessful DIY hunts.
The hunter success ratios show this.
To go a step farther even a grizzly hunt is affordable when taken as a second species on a harvest fee.

[tuner]

Everyone floats in a different boat. Each year a percentage of resident hunters participate in guided hunts. They've figure out that a quality trip far outweighs the cash outlay difference of going on several unsuccessful DIY hunts.
The hunter success ratios show this.
To go a step farther even a grizzly hunt is affordable when taken as a second species on a harvest fee.
It's easy to be unsuccessful when you're not drawn for anything,or to spend huge amounts of money travelling to remote parts of the province to hunt game,that is also available in your area,but you have no access to. The argument that guided hunts are an option for RH doesn't hold water,they are not even an option for the vast majority of non resident hunters,these hunts are for the most part, a luxury for a very well heeled clientele.Let's not pretend this is an equal opportunity endevor.

[j270wsm]

Filling my freezer with 1 bull elk, 3 white tails and 2 goats cost me less than $1000 last season. How many season like that equal one guided grizz hunt......???? 10 - 15????????

That's a lot of money for an animal I'm not going to eat.

[bearvalley]

Filling my freezer with 1 bull elk, 3 white tails and 2 goats cost me less than $1000 last season. How many season like that equal one guided grizz hunt......???? 10 - 15????????

That's a lot of money for an animal I'm not going to eat.

Did you pull the trigger on all 6 to put in "your freezer"?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I have taken quite a few residents and will continue in the future. Most of these guys are your average joe's that saved their pesos.Most were looking for something different such as muledeer horseback trip. these are great value and a trip of a lifetime for a lot of guys.

[bridger]

I have taken quite a few residents and will continue in the future. Most of these guys are your average joe's that saved their pesos.Most were looking for something different such as muledeer horseback trip. these are great value and a trip of a lifetime for a lot of guys.


Nice to see an outfitter catering to residents. Wish more would follow suit especially on GOS seasons. One of the larger outfitters in 7b caters to resident elk hunters on gos. Does well. Provides good service.

[guest]

Just asking Cillkoothillbill.
What do you sell a 7 day horseback Mulie hunt for a non resident ......... and for a BC resident ? Any break at all for a BC resident ? How many a year do you harvest ?
I researched some northern outfitters for a while a few years back for friend , a BC resident that had cancer but still wanted to fulfill his dream of harvesting a 6 pt. bull elk . I was completely disappointed with the response I recieved from every one .......... Once they found the Hunter was a BC resident they really were not interested. The island price was 24,000 American dollars for a Rosie :shock::shock::shock::shock:

[bridger]

I have taken quite a few residents and will continue in the future. Most of these guys are your average joe's that saved their pesos.Most were looking for something different such as muledeer horseback trip. these are great value and a trip of a lifetime for a lot of guys.

As a matter of interest are they guided hunts only or do you provide transporter services as well?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

As a matter of interest are they guided hunts only or do you provide transporter services as well?

I only guide these hunts, my area is to small to be packing for clients. I also run a one man show.
I have met some great residents in the process and look forward to hunting with them in the future. As many from this site would know, coffee is on if anyone wants to stop by when they are out this way.
I have had some stay in my cabins, given advice, even got access permission from local ranchers for last years grizzly hunters.

[bridger]

I only guide these hunts, my area is to small to be packing for clients. I also run a one man show.
I have met some great residents in the process and look forward to hunting with them in the future. As many from this site would know, coffee is on if anyone wants to stop by when they are out this way.
I have had some stay in my cabins, given advice, even got access permission from local ranchers for last years grizzly hunters.

Thanks good to know.

[yama49]

I didn't say it was all right about anything. If you want a grizzly tag, maybe consider an area where the draw stats are .7 to 1. Who is stopping you from buying a tag off an outfitter? You act like this option is not available to you.
Do you hunt grizzlies for sustenance? If not, why not share your recreational opportunities with others?

I dint say i couldn't get a draw for a bear in a ridiculous area, or couldn't buy one. My point is why do we give out tags that residents have to draw to get? And it sure sounds like you think its fair.

[j270wsm]

Did you pull the trigger on all 6 to put in "your freezer"?

No, my 11yr old son shot 2 deer and a goat. But I paid for everything. I guess it was closer to $1600 after butcher costs added in.

[guest]

Just asking Cillkoothillbill.
What do you sell a 7 day horseback Mulie hunt for a non resident ......... and for a BC resident ? Any break at all for a BC resident ? How many a year do you harvest ?
I researched some northern outfitters for a while a few years back for friend , a BC resident that had cancer but still wanted to fulfill his dream of harvesting a 6 pt. bull elk . I was completely disappointed with the response I recieved from every one .......... Once they found the Hunter was a BC resident they really were not interested. The island price was 24,000 American dollars for a Rosie :shock::shock::shock::shock:

kind of makes ya wonder why he won't answer ....... Hum?

[300rum700]

kind of makes ya wonder why he won't answer ....... Hum?

Why do you expect a break for BC residents? You expect a break because you hold a tag? You use his equipment, stay in his camps, use his livestock and most importantly take advantage of his knowledge. Your tag might not be on his quota but you definitely takes up his time which there isn't a lot of during the alpine hunting season.

[bearvalley]

kind of makes ya wonder why he won't answer ....... Hum?

Maybe chilcotin hillbillys having a pow wow down at the local band office to see if he can even take you hunting?

[j270wsm]

Did you pull the trigger on all 6 to put in "your freezer"?


What was the point of this question?????? Does it some how change the fact that I can't justify saving 10-15yrs worth of hunting expense's just to afford one guided hunt in my own province. And yes I average $1200-1600/yr to put 3-4 animals in my freezer

[bearvalley]

What was the point of this question?????? Does it some how change the fact that I can't justify saving 10-15yrs worth of hunting expense's just to afford one guided hunt in my own province. And yes I average $1200-1600/yr to put 3-4 animals in my freezer

Good for you. You're better than average. I was just curious when you said "you put 2 goats in your freezer".
I'm sure all the other conservation minded individuals on here were curious as well.

[tuner]

No outfitter has a reasonable answer ,as to why it's justifiable to have wealthy foreign clientele hunt spicies year after year,while some residents will never be drawn for the same spicies.Telling residents that hiring a guide is an option is a bullshit answer,it just goes to show how flawed the current system is.

[Gateholio]

I have taken quite a few residents and will continue in the future. Most of these guys are your average joe's that saved their pesos.Most were looking for something different such as muledeer horseback trip. these are great value and a trip of a lifetime for a lot of guys.

This is why you will suceed and others will cry the blues.

You our aren't afraid to diversify and go out of the box. Too many outfitters won't.

[srupp]

This is why you will suceed and others will cry the blues.

You our aren't afraid to diversify and go out of the box. Too many outfitters won't.

True that Gate, everyone sings the praises of Kevin Willis..for great reasons..well Doug is at the top of the heap alongside Kevin..Chilcotinhillbilly is avery knowledgeable guide who works hard all year round , he also helps honor Canadian and USA wounded warriors...was honoring these heros the day his son graduated..I was there when the BC resident hunters showed up to ask for help with their leh grizzly tag..Doug assisted with information and contacts and locations..hmm all primo information.
Doug has risked more than I ever did buying this guide area...working hard providing the best hunting experiences that can be found...should be another Wild tv episode soon imptessed wild tv executives. ..
This is how Doug provides a living and for his familly....
He is not only a extremely skilled guide, outdoorsman, family man, 4th best shooter in his household.he has gone out of his way for his clients, and done the same for residential hunters ...he still has to make a living.
Oh and by the extremely exemplary way he lives his life..I am proud to call him my friend..know Dog and Kevin Willis..both ARE cut from the same extrodinary bolt of cloth .
Cheers
Steven Rupp

[bearvalley]

Way to go Gatehouse and srupp, finally someone other than another guide sticking up for a guide. Steven, throughout the years you've had the opportunity to cross paths with several outfitters, were the majority greedy bad guys? Or is that just another myth to keep the pot stirred?

[bridger]

Way to go Gatehouse and srupp, finally someone other than another guide sticking up for a guide. Steven, throughout the years you've had the opportunity to cross paths with several outfitters, were the majority greedy bad guys? Or is that just another myth to keep the pot stirred?

Bear Valley just to set the record straight. Many resident hunters myself included view outfitting as an important part of our social fabric. It speaks to our heritage, it speaks to our history, and in part it speaks to who we are. And to the true BC families that own outfitting areas it is a wonderful way of life.

Unfortunately that industry is being replaced by foreign and non resident ownership that has no real ties to BC. Unfortunately the industry we viewed as neighbours is being replaced by corporate greed a complete disregard for resident hunters and even worse in some instances a complete disregard for the resource. The evidence is absolutely clear that it was Goabc leadership that convinced government to scrap the 2007 allocation policy we agreed to. No amount of hyperbole can change that. If you and others don't agree with Goabc leadership then let them and government know that you are not supportive. That would be a great first step to start get healing process. Just sayin.

[srupp]

Way to go Gatehouse and srupp, finally someone other than another guide sticking up for a ginvestment in timeide. Steven, throughout the years you've had the opportunity to cross paths with several outfitters, were the majority greedy bad guys? Or is that just another myth to keep the pot stirred?

Hmmm good question...Betty Franks, bless her heart, Mr. Clayton Mack, Recently departed Doug from Swan Lake outfitters, and CH seem to be the exceptipns not the rule..Gerry Bracewell was also upstanding lady guide..most of the others Ive run into...it was too much competition for them even with them having horses..using planes to spot a lot of outfitters did not play nice with us resident hunters..
Some resorted to try and hire us instead of compete with us... Mr. Maitland tried to hire Bob and myself to guide grizzly..lol
Up north pilots were told not to fly us into many lakes..had guides just blow by us on horseback headed to sheep areas...even had guide try and steal the stone sheep we had spent all morning doing a study and stalk...
Another good guy Was Chilco Choate...

Had some truly frustrating events with guides and outfitters.....some cost me $$$$$ I havnt hunted lots in okanagan or kootenays so can only speak from my experience....
Heide once associated with Sherwood Henri..she has also been very kind ..in spite of some rsident hunters ecperiences...probably the toughest lady out there in the outfitting buisness...
Im sure there are plenty of good guys I have yet to meet....we cant lump them nor resident hunters into the same pot...
I also am a huge fan of Jim Shockey...and his recent statement was amazingly skillfully articulated.
Treat the guides and outfitters like fellow outdoorsmen, ladies and how you would like to be treated..respect their time and expense they have invested into making a living...and realize they may have had bad experiences with resident hunters..our current situstion is not all of their doing I brlieve it is a minority that have vlose contact with government and some used that influence..

Cheers
Steven

[gcreek]

Bear Valley just to set the record straight. Many resident hunters myself included view outfitting as an important part of our social fabric. It speaks to our heritage, it speaks to our history, and in part it speaks to who we are. And to the true BC families that own outfitting areas it is a wonderful way of life.

Unfortunately that industry is being replaced by foreign and non resident ownership that has no real ties to BC. Unfortunately the industry we viewed as neighbours is being replaced by corporate greed a complete disregard for resident hunters and even worse in some instances a complete disregard for the resource. The evidence is absolutely clear that it was Goabc leadership that convinced government to scrap the 2007 allocation policy we agreed to. No amount of hyperbole can change that. If you and others don't agree with Goabc leadership then let them and government know that you are not supportive. That would be a great first step to start get healing process. Just sayin.


Very well said Bridger.

[srupp]

Bridger does make a hood point...a lot of outfitters that spent 40 plus yesrs in areas local folkes knew how much we need each other in the woods and to manage wildlife..
Picked up my client...went to the cabin on the lake..lock busted of the door 2 gentlemen maming supper..politely asked them to leave as this was a ptivatley owned cabin and we were of need of it..
Some strong abusive language about first come first served....Betty showed up...they left rightly remember throwing their gear into their truck..yup those were resident hunters..yet on another ocassion both our hunters got smoking good bears couple nice resident hunters showed up Betty drew a map to where a 7.5 or 8 foot silvertip grizzly was..next morning we heard the shots while we were dneaking up on a besutiful black bear..
Clayton was exceptionally well graced in helping resident hunters...
Srupp

[bearvalley]

Hmmm good question...Betty Franks, bless her heart, Mr. Clayton Mack, Recently departed Doug from Swan Lake outfitters, and CH seem to be the exceptipns not the rule..Gerry Bracewell was also upstanding lady guide..most of the others Ive run into...it was too much competition for them even with them having horses..using planes to spot a lot of outfitters did not play nice with us resident hunters..
Some resorted to try and hire us instead of compete with us... Mr. Maitland tried to hire Bob and myself to guide grizzly..lol
Up north pilots were told not to fly us into many lakes..had guides just blow by us on horseback headed to sheep areas...even had guide try and steal the stone sheep we had spent all morning doing a study and stalk...
Another good guy Was Chilco Choate...

Had some truly frustrating events with guides and outfitters.....some cost me $$$$$ I havnt hunted lots in okanagan or kootenays so can only speak from my experience....
Heide once associated with Sherwood Henri..she has also been very kind ..in spite of some rsident hunters ecperiences...probably the toughest lady out there in the outfitting buisness...
Im sure there are plenty of good guys I have yet to meet....we cant lump them nor resident hunters into the same pot...
I also am a huge fan of Jim Shockey...and his recent statement was amazingly skillfully articulated.
Treat the guides and outfitters like fellow outdoorsmen, ladies and how you would like to be treated..respect their time and expense they have invested into making a living...and realize they may have had bad experiences with resident hunters..our current situstion is not all of their doing I brlieve it is a minority that have vlose contact with government and some used that influence..

Cheers
Steven

My hat is off to you Steven, you are a true statesman for resident hunters. You're the kind of guy that I would donate my time and string of pack ponies to if needed to help retrieve a moose or other game. Others would wear out their backpack. Thanks for the honest answer and I pretty much agree on the names you mentioned.

[bearvalley]

Bear Valley just to set the record straight. Many resident hunters myself included view outfitting as an important part of our social fabric. It speaks to our heritage, it speaks to our history, and in part it speaks to who we are. And to the true BC families that own outfitting areas it is a wonderful way of life.

Unfortunately that industry is being replaced by foreign and non resident ownership that has no real ties to BC. Unfortunately the industry we viewed as neighbours is being replaced by corporate greed a complete disregard for resident hunters and even worse in some instances a complete disregard for the resource. The evidence is absolutely clear that it was Goabc leadership that convinced government to scrap the 2007 allocation policy we agreed to. No amount of hyperbole can change that. If you and others don't agree with Goabc leadership then let them and government know that you are not supportive. That would be a great first step to start get healing process. Just sayin.

Bridger, I'm in agreement with most that you say, but to go farther all parties should throw away axes from the past and pull together. Wildlife will win, government would have to listen and it will be a hell of a lot more pleasant when we cross paths in the mountains.

[bridger]

Bridger, I'm in agreement with most that you say, but to go farther all parties should throw away axes from the past and pull together. Wildlife will win, government would have to listen and it will be a hell of a lot more pleasant when we cross paths in the mountains.

i agree and thought we had done just that back in 2007. There is no way resident hunters can accept this latest allocation decision. The Goabc broke the trust and it is the Goabc that needs to put down the axe. And again I say that outfitters such as yourself can contribute to the healing process.

[Gateholio]

Way to go Gatehouse and srupp, finally someone other than another guide sticking up for a guide. Steven, throughout the years you've had the opportunity to cross paths with several outfitters, were the majority greedy bad guys? Or is that just another myth to keep the pot stirred?


I try to call it like I see it, and CH appears to have a business model that works because he is willing to be diverse as well as co-exist with resident hunters. GOABC on the other hand takes the opposite approach. They think that there is only one way to succeed and that's with more taken from residents.

I would like to bury the hatchet and move on too, thought we did that 7 years ago. Unfortunately GOABC stuck a knife in our backs. To move on, GOABC needs to immediately go and ask for 90/10 75/25 splits and be thankful of it. They created this mess, not us. GOABCs dismissive attitude towards residents is what keeps the pot stirred.

Baseless allegations on about car theft, laser scopes and abuse of the PTA program also helps keep the pot stirred.

[Wild one]

Hmmm good question...Betty Franks, bless her heart, Mr. Clayton Mack, Recently departed Doug from Swan Lake outfitters, and CH seem to be the exceptipns not the rule..Gerry Bracewell was also upstanding lady guide..most of the others Ive run into...it was too much competition for them even with them having horses..using planes to spot a lot of outfitters did not play nice with us resident hunters..
Some resorted to try and hire us instead of compete with us... Mr. Maitland tried to hire Bob and myself to guide grizzly..lol
Up north pilots were told not to fly us into many lakes..had guides just blow by us on horseback headed to sheep areas...even had guide try and steal the stone sheep we had spent all morning doing a study and stalk...
Another good guy Was Chilco Choate...

Had some truly frustrating events with guides and outfitters.....some cost me $$$$$ I havnt hunted lots in okanagan or kootenays so can only speak from my experience....
Heide once associated with Sherwood Henri..she has also been very kind ..in spite of some rsident hunters ecperiences...probably the toughest lady out there in the outfitting buisness...
Im sure there are plenty of good guys I have yet to meet....we cant lump them nor resident hunters into the same pot...
I also am a huge fan of Jim Shockey...and his recent statement was amazingly skillfully articulated.
Treat the guides and outfitters like fellow outdoorsmen, ladies and how you would like to be treated..respect their time and expense they have invested into making a living...and realize they may have had bad experiences with resident hunters..our current situstion is not all of their doing I brlieve it is a minority that have vlose contact with government and some used that influence..

Cheers
Steven


Great post and I also agree there are good GO's/resident hunters and scum GO's/resident hunters. I have experienced good and bad from both first hand.

Unfortunately bad experiences have a habit of leaving a stronger impression in a persons memory than good ones. People have a bad habit of breaking out the torches and pitch forks against a whole group do to the actions of only a portion of them. When in reality it is not that cut and dry on who is good or bad.

With this allocation issue it has drag out a lot of anger some rightly so and some misdirected. Odds are with what has been brought forward by the GOABC was done so by a smaller portion of GO's than resident hunter would like to admit. Like any other organization it is most often less than 75% of the members voteing. Like resident hunters many GO's will have families and lives interfering with them taking there time to put there voice into these issues.

Personally I do not want to see GO's disappear but instead and fair honest split and be done with it. It has been said many times over the years it would benefit both sides if this GO vs. resident hunter crap was put aside and focused on wildlife.

I see my fight with the govt as they are the ones who have the end say in this allocation split. Would be nice to see the GOABC gutted and run by GO's that are willing to work with resident hunters rather than step on them. The later will truly be up to the GO's as it is them who have the ability to dictate who runs the GOABC

I just want to see this be done with once and for all

[Sitkaspruce]

Hmmm good question...Betty Franks, bless her heart, Mr. Clayton Mack, Recently departed Doug from Swan Lake outfitters, and CH seem to be the exceptipns not the rule..Gerry Bracewell was also upstanding lady guide..most of the others Ive run into...it was too much competition for them even with them having horses..using planes to spot a lot of outfitters did not play nice with us resident hunters..
Some resorted to try and hire us instead of compete with us... Mr. Maitland tried to hire Bob and myself to guide grizzly..lol
Up north pilots were told not to fly us into many lakes..had guides just blow by us on horseback headed to sheep areas...even had guide try and steal the stone sheep we had spent all morning doing a study and stalk...
Another good guy Was Chilco Choate...

Had some truly frustrating events with guides and outfitters.....some cost me $$$$$ I havnt hunted lots in okanagan or kootenays so can only speak from my experience....
Heide once associated with Sherwood Henri..she has also been very kind ..in spite of some rsident hunters ecperiences...probably the toughest lady out there in the outfitting buisness...
Im sure there are plenty of good guys I have yet to meet....we cant lump them nor resident hunters into the same pot...
I also am a huge fan of Jim Shockey...and his recent statement was amazingly skillfully articulated.
Treat the guides and outfitters like fellow outdoorsmen, ladies and how you would like to be treated..respect their time and expense they have invested into making a living...and realize they may have had bad experiences with resident hunters..our current situstion is not all of their doing I brlieve it is a minority that have vlose contact with government and some used that influence..

Cheers
Steven

Well said Steve!!!!!

I too have met good and the odd bad one and worked for some good ones.

Most have been great: the crew at Netson Lake helped us pack out a moose, used their 14' boat to get the moose to camp and helped hang it, one of our crew got sick, the awesome Aussie cook called in the plan for us and left us baked goods at our camp one day. The GO at an unnamed lake in region 6 had his ponies hobbled and they wandered over to our camp early one morning, he came over offered us breakfast and coffee and spent a few hours talking abut the business and the area.

There is some great one out there, but just like all walks of like, there is bad apples as well and its too bad they can screw up for the rest of us......

Lets get back to the allocation of 2007, move forward and put all this pressure on the Gov to improve habitat and the animals that need it.

Cheers

SS

[Knight167]

Allocation policy? Residents have 78% outfitters have 22% what's the problem? But if you look in some areas say for leh, residents hunters have 50 goats in 5 years outfitters have 1. Another area in three regions in outfitters area residents have close to 400 leh moose the outfitter only has 7 moose. So please explain to me how outfitters have all the game that their shooting. But here's a kicker, out of residents harvest.... for grizzlies the harvest rate is 40 to 50% is female and same with goats. But outfitters run about 5 to 7% but we both lose quota how is that fair, it should come out of resident quota not outfitter because guides spent the time to judge the animal why should our quota be affected? That's why we should have the d-linking harvest policy. Why should I lose being able to feed my family because other people are careless or Impatient. Like really... are we all for hunting? Some are residents some are outfitters but we are all looking to look after everything so are kids or grand kids can hunt or outfit. You may think it all looks bad, loosing cow quotas and calf season. But in the long run it will benefit us all. Don't we not have enough trouble with Sierra Club and the likes to be fighting amongst are selves..... like really maybe it's time to grow up.

[Knight167]

What about Jim (Deadog) having to retract his statement for misinformation. What else are Jim (Deaddog) and Jesse (goatman) misleading the public about?

[Wild one]

Knight

I only have 1 ? why should BC GO's have a higher % of the allocation than GO's in any other prov?

I also have issues with BC's management but allocations are not going to solve that.

Neither side is made up of all saints so lets not get into that

Willing to hear your side on what you think should be done with allocations

[bridger]

Just a question for general information that I wonder about and haven't seen any comments on. If guides in other jurisdictions are viable on 10/12% of the AAH. Why do BC outfitters need 20/40%? Anyone know?

[Knight167]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.

[Knight167]

Bridger,

Where do you get 20 to 40% please be a bit more clear

[Gateholio]

What about Jim (Deadog) having to retract his statement for misinformation. What else are Jim (Deaddog) and Jesse (goatman) misleading the public about?

I researched his original post and found no real misinformation, actually.

I suspect Deadog has been the victim of another SLAPP and he would rather post a retraction than go bankrupt getting into a legal battle with a lawyer.

[bridger]

Bridger,

Where do you get 20 to 40% please be a bit more clear
Sheep and grizzly allocation to non residents 40% moose 25% etc lowest. Non res share 20%

[Knight167]

Wild one,

This is hunting BC not Alberta where we bait bears.

[Knight167]

Gatehouse,
I have some ocean front property in Alberta I would like to sell you

[Wild one]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.

Well, I have a different opinion on the % but you are entitled to yours. Personally I would like to see it closer to the rest of Canada.

GO's, resident hunters, trappers and anyone who uses the outdoors are all out there as eyes in the bush. Any ethical avid outdoors men does this. It is far from just GO's. I know many resident hunters who are 365 as well.

Ethical GO's bring just as much to the table as ethical resident hunters no more no less.

Personally I would like to see a fair agreement come to light and focus from both sides be put towards wildlife not each other

[Squirrelnuts]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.

Batter up!

[Knight167]

Bridger,

You are highly misinformed. In the area I guide residents have close to 70 grizzlies a year we can take 3 grizzlies in 5 years to the best of my knowledge. Im not far off I can tell you that. Where do you get 40%?

[Wild one]

Wild one,

This is hunting BC not Alberta where we bait bears.

Not a pitchfork carrying mob member just asking for an answer to the ? I have had since the start. And I do actually want to hear both sides

If you knew me I am far from anti outfitter

[bridger]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.

not sure what you are saying. You deserve more because you patrol wildlife? That makes no sense to me. As for making a living guides in other jurisdictions make a living at 10%. What's different in bc that you guides need twice as much? Something's missing in this equation.

[Wild one]

Bridger,

You are highly misinformed. In the area I guide residents have close to 70 grizzlies a year we can take 3 grizzlies in 5 years to the best of my knowledge. Im not far off I can tell you that. Where do you get 40%?

The new allocation splits are not in affect yet on LEH

[bridger]

Bridger,

You are highly misinformed. In the area I guide residents have close to 70 grizzlies a year we can take 3 grizzlies in 5 years to the best of my knowledge. Im not far off I can tell you that. Where do you get 40%?

its in the Thomson decision the split will be 60/40 for grizz and sheep. Are you saying you aren't aware of that?

[dbergen69]

A lot of back and forth debating percentages but back to the original question. Why aren't the allocations transparent and easily available to the public?

[rgn5hunt]

Sheep and grizzly allocation to non residents 40% moose 25% etc lowest. Non res share 20%
The recent allocation issue has spread like a grassfire on a dry spring day. It has helped many people compare how wildlife is shared in other provinces and states.

[Buck]

Allocation policy? Residents have 78% outfitters have 22% what's the problem? But if you look in some areas say for leh, residents hunters have 50 goats in 5 years outfitters have 1. Another area in three regions in outfitters area residents have close to 400 leh moose the outfitter only has 7 moose. So please explain to me how outfitters have all the game that their shooting. But here's a kicker, out of residents harvest.... for grizzlies the harvest rate is 40 to 50% is female and same with goats. But outfitters run about 5 to 7% but we both lose quota how is that fair, it should come out of resident quota not outfitter because guides spent the time to judge the animal why should our quota be affected? That's why we should have the d-linking harvest policy. Why should I lose being able to feed my family because other people are careless or Impatient. Like really... are we all for hunting? Some are residents some are outfitters but we are all looking to look after everything so are kids or grand kids can hunt or outfit. You may think it all looks bad, loosing cow quotas and calf season. But in the long run it will benefit us all. Don't we not have enough trouble with Sierra Club and the likes to be fighting amongst are selves..... like really maybe it's time to grow up.

How about we start here read this check the graphs and tell us how great the allocations are.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?115102-Region-5-Moose-No-Impact

[Knight167]

Wild one,
I agree with your comment.

[one-shot-wonder]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.

Are you a member of GOABC?

[bridger]

A lot of back and forth debating percentages but back to the original question. Why aren't the allocations transparent and easily available to the public?

Good point. Legally they are public information. In the past that information was available. Now for some reason the only way we can get them is to file a freedom of information request. In region 7b it is strictly the decision of the new regional manager. Not sure about other regions.

[Knight167]

Are you forgetting to take in to account logging impact and mining, and forestry spraying cut blocs to keep willows and poplars, etc. .. (weed trees) down. The prime food source moose.

[Knight167]

Permanent resident hunter born and raised. I buy my license and tags and put in for the draw just like you guys.

[rgn5hunt]

dbergen asks good question here folks! The 2007 W.A.P. Policy was de railed because it was transparent. In guess a few choice registered lobbyists can' t deal with transparent agreements.

[bridger]

Permanent resident hunter born and raised. I buy my license and tags and put in for the draw just like you guys.


Nice to know. But still would like to know why guides in bc need such a large share of the aah. Having that knowledge may help us all understand the goabc's thinking.

[Knight167]

Bridger,
How is it a large share when we have LEH plus general season for every species except rosevelt elk, grizzlies and bison?

[one-shot-wonder]

Permanent resident hunter born and raised. I buy my license and tags and put in for the draw just like you guys.

So you think taking a few more animals from the residents share will make your part time guiding job a full time viable one?

[bridger]

Bridger,
How is it a large share when we have LEH plus general season for every species except rosevelt elk, grizzlies and bison?

my question is simply this. If guides in other jurisdictions make a living on 10% of the aah why do BC guides need 20/40% to as you say make a living? What's different in BC? That's all I am asking.

[Mudzbogger]

Are you a member of GOABC?

Of course he is but apparently he is unaware of his 60/40% split of Grizzly after the allocation decision. He can't apparently read the decisions so should go back and do so.

This thread has all kinds of allure to it and has me so intrigued. We have BV hiding in another thread at first as a non outfitter looking to garner support for the good outfitters out there that do support the resident hunter which apparently he is in fact one of them although he currently supports GOABC. His words through some of these threads though say something else, his actions must speak those and in this thread there is some common ground emerging.

However we have Knight167 appear on scene as an azzhat as the common ground starts to appear between two groups to muck it all up. An outfitter who thinks RH are a bunch of hillbilly shoot anything do nothing hunters not worthy of the animals in this province. This Azzhat is out there 365 days a year according to him doing all this stuff so they deserve it.

How are we going to find common ground if this is the type of asinine comments that appear to be pervasive amongst the GOABC crowd. Knight167 by all means why don't you share who you are so we can all see how tough it is for you to feed you family.

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse,
I have some ocean front property in Alberta I would like to sell you


Misdirection. Not surprised.

[The Dawg]

Misdirection. Not surprised.


While your contemplating that purchase Gate, watch this video to keep you occupied!

https://vimeo.com/60709886

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y444/chadm167/322164_10151062687629077_294743525_o_zpsa4ca7460.j pg

[358mag]

Misdirection. Not surprised.
Any videos of your trophy guided BC moose hunt ????

[Mudzbogger]

While your contemplating that purchase Gate, watch this video to keep you occupied!

I guess there is no need for the ghost to speak up. Judging by the ranch, the gear he is wearing etc. I don't think he's that all that hard done by. Wouldn't pass a hardship audit that's for sure. Good work yet again Dawg!

[guest]

While your contemplating that purchase Gate, watch this video to keep you occupied!

https://vimeo.com/60709886

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y444/chadm167/322164_10151062687629077_294743525_o_zpsa4ca7460.j pg


Excuse me .... Will you please carry my gun ...... I'm tired

[f350ps]

I can't believe after all these weeks of back and forth banter these guides and outfitters can't resist opening their yaps on these threads and show the world the real truth! Obviously their leaders are too busy doing damage control that they've allowed the minions to speak!! I'm lovin this $hit, everyday there's more ammo!! K.

[Knight167]

Dear mudzbogger
Do I ask you how to flip burgers?

[Mudzbogger]

Dear mudzbogger
Do I ask you how to flip burgers?

Bwahahaha... you funny guy :)

[Knight167]

The ultimate goal is to protect #1 wildlife and #2 to protect hunting heritage for children of the future

[tuner]

I think they are pretty fair as they sit. We aren't trying to take anything away from residents, but we have to make a living to. Without us who patrols wildlife? We are out there 365 days a year.Our conservation officers don't have the resources. We do alot for wildlife and hunters throughout the world.
This is the most ridiculous justification for increased allocations yet.Can't say I've run into to many GOABC wildlife patrol posse's.

[Gateholio]

I can't believe after all these weeks of back and forth banter these guides and outfitters can't resist opening their yaps on these threads and show the world the real truth! Obviously their leaders are too busy doing damage control that they've allowed the minions to speak!! I'm lovin this $hit, everyday there's more ammo!! K.

Most of the time they open their mouths they shove their foot firmly into it. I'm still shaking my head about the laser pointer incident. :)

[burger]

The ultimate goal is to protect #1 wildlife and #2 to protect hunting heritage for children of the future


Both of which involve limiting the harvest by Non residents to 10%.

You have a total of 15 posts and not one of them was even remotely productive. Go back and call your buddy who put you up to this and tell him the plan didnt work. Once done maybe spend some time revamping your business plan. Time better spent

[Mudzbogger]

Both of which involve limiting the harvest by Non residents to 10%.

And getting them on LEH where we are on LEH as well. In all due respect Knight167, Bearvalley as a guide/outfitter has 100% more respect for the health of his industry than you appear to have at the moment so move along and grow up as you said earlier...

[Knight167]

Burger,
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, 80/20 is pretty fair. That's the topic isn't it?

[Gateholio]

Everyone is entitled to your opinion, 80/20 is pretty fair. That's the topic isn't it?

It doesn't appear that you actually have looked at the allocation percentages. 20-40% to foreign trophy hunters is the split. And no, it's not fair. 90/10 is the industry standard for most of north america. It seems that only in BC do outfitters need more, despite the incredible legislated advantages of having exclusive guiding rights in an area and non residents forced to use a guide.

[burger]

Burger,
Everyone is entitled to your opinion, 80/20 is pretty fair. That's the topic isn't it?


Everyone is entitled to my opinion!! I say 90/10!

Actually that is not the topic but rather were trying to discern what GO allocations are.



Just remember this...a deal was agreed to in 2007 and since then the GOABC has done everything it could to undermine that, and now residents are saying screw you GOABC. You supported their decisions by your now 16 posts here so I am sorry , you may be a nice person, but I will not stop till I get the Thompson Allocation Policy vetoed and could give two shits as to how your going to get on.

[rgn5hunt]

Information and education is good for some and bad for others. We thank Scot Ellis and a few of the more aggressive people that he works for and help set his agenda.
Now 102000 resident hunters know just how generous 10% of the allocation as a direct award to the Guide Outfitters is.
Any body think the non residents should have to apply for a lottery for their share? or would that cause some hardship and a series of environmental appeals ?

[srupp]

Hmm I saw beautiful country where I live, beautiful mulies, amazingly well conditioned hores, great equipment great mulie outragous dinner..slightly overdon,,, lol

I saw hunters
Steven

[bridger]

Burger,
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, 80/20 is pretty fair. That's the topic isn't it?

Still waiting to find out why BC GUIDES need 25/40 % of the aah to survive. You keep dodging the issue so I assume you either don't know or you are concerned that the truth will not set you free.

[bridger]

Hmm I saw beautiful country where I live, beautiful mulies, amazingly well conditioned hores, great equipment great mulie outragous dinner..slightly overdon,,, lol

I saw hunters
Steven

And your point is?

[GoatGuy]

Allocation policy? Residents have 78% outfitters have 22% what's the problem? But if you look in some areas say for leh, residents hunters have 50 goats in 5 years outfitters have 1. Another area in three regions in outfitters area residents have close to 400 leh moose the outfitter only has 7 moose. So please explain to me how outfitters have all the game that their shooting. But here's a kicker, out of residents harvest.... for grizzlies the harvest rate is 40 to 50% is female and same with goats. But outfitters run about 5 to 7% but we both lose quota how is that fair, it should come out of resident quota not outfitter because guides spent the time to judge the animal why should our quota be affected? That's why we should have the d-linking harvest policy. Why should I lose being able to feed my family because other people are careless or Impatient. Like really... are we all for hunting? Some are residents some are outfitters but we are all looking to look after everything so are kids or grand kids can hunt or outfit. You may think it all looks bad, loosing cow quotas and calf season. But in the long run it will benefit us all. Don't we not have enough trouble with Sierra Club and the likes to be fighting amongst are selves..... like really maybe it's time to grow up.
Resident hunters harvest 40-50% sows and nannies??

And outfitters run about 4-7% on sows and nannies??

Please show the data.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Nice to know. But still would like to know why guides in bc need such a large share of the aah. Having that knowledge may help us all understand the goabc's thinking.


In a lot of cases the this whole system is screwed up. I have two outfitters next to my concession, one hasn't taken a moose in 5 years or more the other around 20 years. Why should they be allocated any moose period.With no effort to hunt them.
Then again there are way more leh hunters that are taking a way opportunity for other resident hunters by not even going on their hunt. This number is huge! no one seems to care about the broken leh system.
I would be willing to bet that there are a ton of areas that less then 50% of the drawn applicants go on their hunt.

[Fisher-Dude]

amazingly well conditioned hores,
Steven

Hmmmmm, what kind of camp were you in exactly? :shock::shock::shock:

It's okay, we won't tell Susan. ;)

************************************************** ****************

On another note, it's rather strange that an American who comes to our province to guide is professing to tell us in no uncertain terms in this thread what percentages are "fair" for resident hunters.

[Gateholio]

An Americsn who doesn't seem to understand the actual allocation policy or have any real data. He's probably best ignored. :)

[Wild one]

In a lot of cases the this whole system is screwed up. I have two outfitters next to my concession, one hasn't taken a moose in 5 years or more the other around 20 years. Why should they be allocated any moose period.With no effort to hunt them.
Then again there are way more leh hunters that are taking a way opportunity for other resident hunters by not even going on their hunt. This number is huge! no one seems to care about the broken leh system.
I would be willing to bet that there are a ton of areas that less then 50% of the drawn applicants go on their hunt.

BC's LEH system is broken in my opinion as well and LEH is over used as a management tool. Would also like to see options other than LEH and point restrictions used when possible. In my opinion short less restrictive GOS and special weapon seasons should be used more than straight LEH.

I would say the way both resident hunters and GO's are managed in general is broken

[Wild one]

Are you forgetting to take in to account logging impact and mining, and forestry spraying cut blocs to keep willows and poplars, etc. .. (weed trees) down. The prime food source moose.

These are all issues that need to be looked at and if both sides focused on this rather than allocations we would all benefit.

Unfortunately with this allocation split brought forward by the Libs and GOABC it has put what we should really be working towards on the back burner.

[bridger]

These are all issues that need to be looked at and if both sides focused on this rather than allocations we would all benefit.

Unfortunately with this allocation split brought forward by the Libs and GOABC it has put what we should really be working towards on the back burner.


Excellent summary.

[flyboy]

latest number from Fibber Thomson is "Its only 60 animals now given to outfitters" 60x$10000(average hunt cost across all species?)= $600000 Divided by 240 outfitters=$2500 more per year??? each outfitter is getting 0.25 more animals?

Fibber says the new allocation is needed to keep the outfitters viable???? $2500 a year keeps you above water?? Nope sorry there is more to this story, especially when I hear guides like yourself say they are happy with the split???

If I was a guide outfitter I would check into my CLUB and really see whos benefitting internally from this allocation policy. Someone is getting more then $2500? Someone is not telling the whole story.

[Wild one]

latest number from Fibber Thomson is "Its only 60 animals now given to outfitters" 60x$10000(average hunt cost across all species?)= $600000 Divided by 240 outfitters=$2500 more per year??? each outfitter is getting 0.25 more animals?

Fibber says the new allocation is needed to keep the outfitters viable???? $2500 a year keeps you above water?? Nope sorry there is more to this story, especially when I hear guides like yourself say they are happy with the split???

If I was a guide outfitter I would check into my CLUB and really see whos benefitting internally from this allocation policy. Someone is getting more then $2500? Someone is not telling the whole story.


Odds are the way he is coming up with 60 animals is with sneaky math factoring success rates. The 60 animal bs is no more than smoke and mirrors trying to make things sound like no big deal. I bet resident hunter success rate was put really low when the Libs factored it into their math as well. Easy to just guess success rate here in BC with many species

Now look at what is lost in opportunity and I will place bets it is a lot more than 60 hunters not getting a chance to hunt.

I don't have past years splits but I will place bets we are loosing more than 60 tags available through LEH to resident hunters.

I would really like it if someone with the info to do the math and show the public the true loss of opportunity.

Fudging numbers is the way politicians lie well telling the truth. Great way to fool members of the public who are not educated on a subject

[bridger]

latest number from Fibber Thomson is "Its only 60 animals now given to outfitters" 60x$10000(average hunt cost across all species?)= $600000 Divided by 240 outfitters=$2500 more per year??? each outfitter is getting 0.25 more animals?

Fibber says the new allocation is needed to keep the outfitters viable???? $2500 a year keeps you above water?? Nope sorry there is more to this story, especially when I hear guides like yourself say they are happy with the split???

If I was a guide outfitter I would check into my CLUB and really see whos benefitting internally from this allocation policy. Someone is getting more then $2500? Someone is not telling the whole story.


Good point. Stones in 7b are a prime example. The 2007 policy bottom line on stones was 20% on an AAH of 250 rams=50 rams. Thomson decision is 40 % or 100 rams. Double the previous agreement. 50rams @ $40,000 each is $2,000,000 in US DOLLARS annually over $10,000,000 per five year allocation period.

And the small struggling outfitters think Thomson is doing this for them? The focus on a small number of animals is a smokescreen and all the small outfitters in the province are under the same bus residents are under. They just haven't figured it out yet.

Notice the big outfitters are not complaining. The strings being pulled behind the scenes are not being pulled by the small caribou/kootenays outfitters trying to sell moose for. $7500. The real power in the Goabc
is quietly going unnoticed.

[bearvalley]

This thread has all kinds of allure to it and has me so intrigued. We have BV hiding in another thread at first as a non outfitter looking to garner support for the good outfitters out there that do support the resident hunter which apparently he is in fact one of them although he currently supports GOABC. His words through some of these threads though say something else, his actions must speak those and in this thread there is some common ground emerging.
.

I stated a long time back on this board that I was a life member of GOABC, a member of the BCWF, a member of the WSC and a resident hunter. My thoughts and actions were looking at the allocation mess from the various sides due to involvement with all groups involved in the issue. Can you contribute as much?

[Fisher-Dude]

I stated a long time back on this board that I was a life member of GOABC, a member of the BCWF, a member of the WSC and a resident hunter. My thoughts and actions were looking at the allocation mess from the various sides due to involvement with all groups involved in the issue. Can you contribute as much?

You're an active outfitter. Include that in your bio, why don't ya?

http://www.goabc.org/outfitters/43/bc-safaris-ltd.aspx

[Keta1969]

Eventually common ground must be found but it won't happen until we go back to what was an agreed starting point(2007). GOABC in my opinion will lose in the long run without resident hunter support. Wildlife will lose without both sides lobbying for it. The liberals may lose and no matter what you think the NDP and Greens are not friends of the hunter, yes we want them to hold the government to account but make no mistake about where their support comes from.
It is a mistake and confusing to mix numbers and percentages. The reason the numbers are changing for some species is because the populations are declining. GOABC is way off the mark by expecting residents to take less so they can keep the same number of hunts, if populations rebound will they negotiate a decrease in their percentage?
I also believe the LEH could be improved but, that's for another thread. If outfitters want to grow their business's they should be buying up marginal territories and increasing their numbers by good old free enterprise not on the backs of residents.
Some on here are seeking total annihilation of guide outfitters, we need to step back and find common ground but with the way things have gone GOABC and the government need to take the first step and what 's been offered so far won't cut it. I can't believe they don't realize how grim this could get for them without resident hunter support. Again in the long run everyone will lose without some common ground. If only all this energy and money been spent by both sides had gone towards the wildlife.

[bearvalley]

These are all issues that need to be looked at and if both sides focused on this rather than allocations we would all benefit.

Unfortunately with this allocation split brought forward by the Libs and GOABC it has put what we should really be working towards on the back burner.

With luck the allocation issue will be put to bed. Even though neither side will ever be completely satisfied, we do have to remind ourselves of the good points. Both sides will understand the parameters they have to work within, eg: No more use it or loose it and outfitters do not hunt outside their tenured area.
In the end hopefully we can move on and wildlife benefit, it sure doesn't by both sides fighting to see who can kill the most. That's where we are right now.

[bearvalley]

You're an active outfitter. Include that in your bio don't ya?

As usual FD, another pointless shot from you. The wind is starting to blow and you're on it. IMO

[Fisher-Dude]

we do have to remind ourselves of the good points.

Let's see, good point for an outfitter is inflation of the value of his tenure on the backs of resident hunters.

I'm still trying to find something good about this big, dry rod shoved up resident hunters' asses by Christy Clark. At this point, I'm just not sure what's good about that.

[guest]

With luck the allocation issue will be put to bed. Even though neither side will ever be completely satisfied, we do have to remind ourselves of the good points. Both sides will understand the parameters they have to work within, eg: No more use it or loose it and outfitters do not hunt outside their tenured area.
In the end hopefully we can move on and wildlife benefit, it sure doesn't by both sides fighting to see who can kill the most. That's where we are right now.

You claim your a BC Resident, a BC Hunter and of coarse a BC Guide ...... Please Explain for every one to see " How is this a Win for Residents, none of you can answer that one"

Onto the Feb 6 2015 Policy ........
The BEST part being Guides can shoot over Allocation .... and not face legal consequences ........ Legal Poaching Brought to you by the BC Liberals .....

Thats a Win Win for Wildlife and Residents that do the most for wildlife and help to make it.

The ENTIRE SYSTEM is Broken .... grow a pair in front of your membership and stick up for your neighbors and their grand kids .... Or continue down your slippery demise.

[flyboy]

With luck this allocation can be put to bed?? No I think your missing the bigger picture here. Put all that allocation stuff aside if you want and still you havnt dealt with the backdoor deals and hand shakes, special interest decisions that has gone and is being exposed. There is now more to this then your 60/40 split (or whatever it is now?) and you cant ask people to move on and forget that....

[boxhitch]

Good point. Stones in 7b are a prime example. The 2007 policy bottom line on stones was 20% on an AAH of 250 rams=50 rams. Thomson decision is 40 % or 100 rams. Double the previous agreement.
Where do you get the numbers for Stone's in 7B ? Not on this list http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...n-2015-FAQ.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf)

[rgn5hunt]

I read the policy Thomson put in about going over harvest. It was worded strange, like it could be a harvest on a single day. Sort of like a client takes down an animal and a better one is viewed and for a few dollars more. Is this possible

[bearvalley]

I read the policy Thomson put in about going over harvest. It was worded strange, like it could be a harvest on a single day. Sort of like a client takes down an animal and a better one is viewed and for a few dollars more. Is this possible

Not possible. Period.

[bridger]

[QUOTE=boxhitch;1606028]Where do you get the numbers for Stone's in 7B ? Not on this list http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...n-2015-FA (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf)


the split on sheep is 60/40 was 80/20

[Fisher-Dude]

I read the policy Thomson put in about going over harvest. It was worded strange, like it could be a harvest on a single day. Sort of like a client takes down an animal and a better one is viewed and for a few dollars more. Is this possible

It means the outfitter can bring in as many clients as his infrastructure can handle, and shoot as many animals as there are tags in the clients' pockets, without fear of prosecution and without adhering to the quota that was allocated to him. Example, he has a quota of 8 moose this year, but if he books in 20 clients and they all shoot a moose, no fine for the outfitter.

And there's only a possibility that he will have future quota reduced, not a certainty, as Thomson kept the door open using the words "may have subsequent quota reduced" rather than "MUST have subsequent quota reduced."

She's a free-for-all folks, brought to you by the Christy Liberals.

[rgn5hunt]

I thought it was not clear how it was worded. I'm sure they will clarify it as it is causing some concern with people.

[rgn5hunt]

Thanks F D, that sounds like another one of those so called management tools and an effort to evade transparency.

[GoatGuy]

In a lot of cases the this whole system is screwed up. I have two outfitters next to my concession, one hasn't taken a moose in 5 years or more the other around 20 years. Why should they be allocated any moose period.With no effort to hunt them.
Then again there are way more leh hunters that are taking a way opportunity for other resident hunters by not even going on their hunt. This number is huge! no one seems to care about the broken leh system.
I would be willing to bet that there are a ton of areas that less then 50% of the drawn applicants go on their hunt.

People care about their share of the harvest. The LEH system can be changed, but changing it does not change the allocation. That is the problem.

If your neighbours are not using their allocation why don't you approach them and sub-lease some tags??????????/

[srupp]

[QUOTE=bridger;1605942]And your point is?[/QUOTE
Hmmm point was clear, I warched a good deer hunting video.Im a hunter.nothing more nothing less didnt care or know if it was guided ...or leh...it was enjpyable.
Steven

[Mudzbogger]

I stated a long time back on this board that I was a life member of GOABC, a member of the BCWF, a member of the WSC and a resident hunter. My thoughts and actions were looking at the allocation mess from the various sides due to involvement with all groups involved in the issue. Can you contribute as much?

Here's on honest statement, I can't!. But I don't do it behind the guise of stating I'm a just a resident hunter, I state who I am up front with no hidden position so as not to imply any hidden agenda. You asked what I did for a living I told you. You started your position that all RH's were against GO's which in fact was an assumption because we are not as you can see by some of the very communication you yourself participated in. I myself feel that there are some very good GO's out there that are more than happy to work with RH to build a sustainable future. But what I can do is read and understand numbers and any layman can figure out this is not about 60 animals.

You make some really good points in some of your comments and I commend you on your desire to work together (Hence my comment to Knight167) but the GOABC you joined is NOT the GOABC you belong to today. Being a life member should prompt you into action to change that.

[358mag]

Eventually common ground must be found but it won't happen until we go back to what was an agreed starting point(2007). GOABC in my opinion will lose in the long run without resident hunter support. Wildlife will lose without both sides lobbying for it. The liberals may lose and no matter what you think the NDP and Greens are not friends of the hunter, yes we want them to hold the government to account but make no mistake about where their support comes from.
It is a mistake and confusing to mix numbers and percentages. The reason the numbers are changing for some species is because the populations are declining. GOABC is way off the mark by expecting residents to take less so they can keep the same number of hunts, if populations rebound will they negotiate a decrease in their percentage?
I also believe the LEH could be improved but, that's for another thread. If outfitters want to grow their business's they should be buying up marginal territories and increasing their numbers by good old free enterprise not on the backs of residents.
Some on here are seeking total annihilation of guide outfitters, we need to step back and find common ground but with the way things have gone GOABC and the government need to take the first step and what 's been offered so far won't cut it. I can't believe they don't realize how grim this could get for them without resident hunter support. Again in the long run everyone will lose without some common ground. If only all this energy and money been spent by both sides had gone towards the wildlife.
Well said Keta1969, thanks for posting . http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.png

[chilcotin hillbilly]

It means the outfitter can bring in as many clients as his infrastructure can handle, and shoot as many animals as there are tags in the clients' pockets, without fear of prosecution and without adhering to the quota that was allocated to him. Example, he has a quota of 8 moose this year, but if he books in 20 clients and they all shoot a moose, no fine for the outfitter.

And there's only a possibility that he will have future quota reduced, not a certainty, as Thomson kept the door open using the words "may have subsequent quota reduced" rather than "MUST have subsequent quota reduced."

She's a free-for-all folks, brought to you by the Christy Liberals.

Your numbers are screwed up FD.

An outfitter can only shoot 30% of his 5 year allocation in one year. Not 50% of his allocation as you claim.

This allows the outfitter to harvest his whole allocation easier. If he exceeds his allocated animals they will be be taken away from him for the next allocation period.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

People care about their share of the harvest. The LEH system can be changed, but changing it does not change the allocation. That is the problem.

If your neighbours are not using their allocation why don't you approach them and sub-lease some tags??????????/

Both outfitters are old school outfitters that have little or no business. Leasing out a tag is not in the cards with those two. To them it would be like giving up power to some city slicker.

[resident hunter]

What would you do if the government allowed non-residents to bike on the Seawall, Stanley Park and other nice bike paths but you couldn’t?

What would you do if the government allowed non-residents to fish salmon around Vancouver Island and on the Fraser River but you couldn’t?

You would be upset and it would be entirely within your rights.

This is what is happening with hunting in BC, where non-resident hunters have more rights than British Columbia’s hunting families. Non-residents can hunt all species even the rare ones, while British Columbians are placed on a lottery draw and are not allowed to hunt species like bull moose, elk and sheep in their back yards. British Columbians are being treated like second-class citizens in their own province.

Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are specific and limited.

For example, In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.





Species for residents only



Alberta

Goat



Saskatchewan

Caribou, elk, mule deer



Manitoba

Elk




Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest. Do you find that acceptable?

Further, non-residents of BC are depriving about 1,000 families of the nutritional moose red meat for a year; an annual value for BC residents of about $2,000,000, yes $2 million! Do you find that acceptable?

Moose meat has more protein and less fat than beef. Game meat is organic, lean, and does not contain dyes, artificial hormones or antibiotics. Depriving a resident of a moose is depriving them of feeding their family with nutritional red meat for a year, a $2,000 value (moose meat is about 400-500 pounds, $4-$5 per pound).

May be you understand now why on January 31, a sea of more than 1,200 people rallied in West Kelowna and marched to Christy Clark’s office to register their protest.

A similar scenario happened in Quebec in the 1970’s. Residents could not go hunting and fishing in their back yards because private hunting and fishing clubs covered the southern portion of the Province, owned by foreigners and industry (pulp and paper, banks, etc.). The revolt that followed from the hunters and anglers was relentless, tumultuous and rebellious. So in 1978, the Quebec government changed the law to allow access to resident fishermen and hunters.

Now hunting is popular in Quebec, people are looking for organic meat. 29,000 people took the hunter education course in 2013. Moose hunter numbers are at a record high of the past forty years in Quebec with 180,000 moose hunters, about 6 times the number of moose hunters in BC.

The BC government recognized the benefits of hunting for the province and state on their own website: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070427_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf :

1.“BC resident hunters, for being in constant contact with nature and with the game they hunted, were among the first to realize that wildlife was not an infinite resource, and they banded together into clubs and associations and lobbied for conservation measures, habitat protection and wildlife management have been on the leading edge of the conservation movement ever since the concept was developed. Today, the healthy populations of game animals that thrive across BC owe their well- being to hunters.”

2.“Hunting gets people exercising in the outdoors and actively involved in their environment. It promotes family bonding and fosters an awareness of the value of our environment and the importance of looking after it.”

3.“Lifelong friendships and strong family bonds are developed and enhanced through hunting experiences. The arduous conditions hunters frequently face build teamwork, resourcefulness and attitudes of cooperation and consideration.”

Conclusion: The confrontation between resident hunters and the government is unlikely to stop. This injustice is totally unacceptable.
Recommendation: The BC government should:

1. Immediately cancel the February 6, 2015 Allocation Policy aim to increase 50 animals for non-residents over 2014 and implement the 2007 Allocation Policy that was agreed between the parties.

2. For next year and thereafter,
a. Eliminate the preferences/tags for non-residents,
b. Allow only BC residents to hunt rare species

3. Create, a separate entity like the Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC (FFSBC) and recruit a strong diverse independent board of directors to manage the wildlife with an economic development perspective and to increase the pie for years to come.

A rally is planned on the doorstep of the BC Legislature in Victoria on Monday March 2/2015. The Ladysmith Sportsman’s Club is handling donations for the cause. Dave Judson ( 250-245-3690).
Everybody is welcome.

[Fisher-Dude]

Your numbers are screwed up FD.

An outfitter can only shoot 30% of his 5 year allocation in one year. Not 50% of his allocation as you claim.

This allows the outfitter to harvest his whole allocation easier. If he exceeds his allocated animals they will be be taken away from him for the next allocation period.


No, they won't be taken away from him. You're citing the old policy.

The OiC refers to a section that says they "may" be taken away. Not that they "will" be taken away. Depends how the Decision Maker feels that day. If he's in a good mood and the outfitter is his buddy, he doesn't have to take any animals away from him. And there is no offence for the outfitter if he shoots over his quota.

So, ultimately, if the outfitter hammers over his quota, there is no offence, quota doesn't get reduced, and ultimately to stay within AAH, the resident hunters will likely be the ones who see their LEH tags disappear, or their GOS moose season shortened, because it's far easier to take "a few" animals from the large group than it is to fine an outfitter and reduce his quota causing "financial hardship."

We simply can't have greedy businessmen who can't manage their inventory properly suffer "financial hardship." Christy and Steve and Kootenay Bill said so.

[coach]

What would you do if the government allowed non-residents to bike on the Seawall, Stanley Park and other nice bike paths but you couldn’t?

What would you do if the government allowed non-residents to fish salmon around Vancouver Island and on the Fraser River but you couldn’t?

You would be upset and it would be entirely within your rights.

This is what is happening with hunting in BC, where non-resident hunters have more rights than British Columbia’s hunting families. Non-residents can hunt all species even the rare ones, while British Columbians are placed on a lottery draw and are not allowed to hunt species like bull moose, elk and sheep in their back yards. British Columbians are being treated like second-class citizens in their own province.

Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick respect their resident hunters and non-resident cannot hunt the rare species or non-resident opportunities are specific and limited.

For example, In Alberta, only resident hunters can hunt mountain goat. In Saskatchewan, only resident hunters can hunt mule deer, caribou and elk. In Manitoba, only resident hunters can hunt elk.




Species for residents only


Alberta
Goat


Saskatchewan
Caribou, elk, mule deer


Manitoba
Elk



Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest. Do you find that acceptable?

Further, non-residents of BC are depriving about 1,000 families of the nutritional moose red meat for a year; an annual value for BC residents of about $2,000,000, yes $2 million! Do you find that acceptable?

Moose meat has more protein and less fat than beef. Game meat is organic, lean, and does not contain dyes, artificial hormones or antibiotics. Depriving a resident of a moose is depriving them of feeding their family with nutritional red meat for a year, a $2,000 value (moose meat is about 400-500 pounds, $4-$5 per pound).

May be you understand now why on January 31, a sea of more than 1,200 people rallied in West Kelowna and marched to Christy Clark’s office to register their protest.

A similar scenario happened in Quebec in the 1970’s. Residents could not go hunting and fishing in their back yards because private hunting and fishing clubs covered the southern portion of the Province, owned by foreigners and industry (pulp and paper, banks, etc.). The revolt that followed from the hunters and anglers was relentless, tumultuous and rebellious. So in 1978, the Quebec government changed the law to allow access to resident fishermen and hunters.

Now hunting is popular in Quebec, people are looking for organic meat. 29,000 people took the hunter education course in 2013. Moose hunter numbers are at a record high of the past forty years in Quebec with 180,000 moose hunters, about 6 times the number of moose hunters in BC.

The BC government recognized the benefits of hunting for the province and state on their own website: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070427_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf :

1.“BC resident hunters, for being in constant contact with nature and with the game they hunted, were among the first to realize that wildlife was not an infinite resource, and they banded together into clubs and associations and lobbied for conservation measures, habitat protection and wildlife management have been on the leading edge of the conservation movement ever since the concept was developed. Today, the healthy populations of game animals that thrive across BC owe their well- being to hunters.”

2.“Hunting gets people exercising in the outdoors and actively involved in their environment. It promotes family bonding and fosters an awareness of the value of our environment and the importance of looking after it.”

3.“Lifelong friendships and strong family bonds are developed and enhanced through hunting experiences. The arduous conditions hunters frequently face build teamwork, resourcefulness and attitudes of cooperation and consideration.”

Conclusion: The confrontation between resident hunters and the government is unlikely to stop. This injustice is totally unacceptable.
Recommendation: The BC government should:

1. Immediately cancel the February 6, 2015 Allocation Policy aim to increase 50 animals for non-residents over 2014 and implement the 2007 Allocation Policy that was agreed between the parties.

2. For next year and thereafter,
a. Eliminate the preferences/tags for non-residents,
b. Allow only BC residents to hunt rare species

3. Create, a separate entity like the Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC (FFSBC) and recruit a strong diverse independent board of directors to manage the wildlife with an economic development perspective and to increase the pie for years to come.

A rally is planned on the doorstep of the BC Legislature in Victoria on Monday March 2/2015. The Ladysmith Sportsman’s Club is handling donations for the cause. Dave Judson ( 250-245-3690 (tel:250-245-3690)).
Everybody is welcome.


Denis, you have broken forum protocols. You need to introduce yourself and tell a joke before you can start posting here. It's in the bylaws.. BS 100, section 1. :razz:

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Not only can non-residents of BC hunt all game in BC, moreover, in the past three years non-residents killed more caribou and mountain goat than residents, respectively killing 53.6 % and 56.4% of the harvest. Do you find that acceptable?


this should tell you something should it not.

Residents are changing fewer and fewer hunters are interested in hunting mountain game. Region 5 historically killed 60 goats a year, the past 10 years there has been little interest from the residents with at the most 25 goats taken take each year.

this is a trend for hunters in general, everyone looking for the easy way. 10 % of the hunters kill 90% of the mountain game. Hunters are looking for the easy hunts.

Historical harvest on Region 5 grizzly, the residents only took 25 % of the bears. This was before LEH, why should residents get 60% if their AAH won't ever be reached?

Talking with the regional biologist,he felt the 60/40 split would give the best chance to achieve the AAH which he feels is to low to begin with.

[tuner]

this should tell you something should it not.

Residents are changing fewer and fewer hunters are interested in hunting mountain game. Region 5 historically killed 60 goats a year, the past 10 years there has been little interest from the residents with at the most 25 goats taken take each year.

this is a trend for hunters in general, everyone looking for the easy way. 10 % of the hunters kill 90% of the mountain game. Hunters are looking for the easy hunts.

Historical harvest on Region 5 grizzly, the residents only took 25 % of the bears. This was before LEH, why should residents get 60% if their AAH won't ever be reached?

Talking with the regional biologist,he felt the 60/40 split would give the best chance to achieve the AAH which he feels is to low to begin with.
Is there health risks to a spicies or to conservation in general,if AAH targets are not met?

[bridger]

[QUOTE=chilcotin hillbilly;1606200]this should tell you something should it not.

Residents are changing fewer and fewer hunters are interested in hunting mountain game. Region 5 historically killed 60 goats a year, the past 10 years there has been little interest from the residents with at the most 25 goats taken take each year.

this is a trend for hunters in general, everyone looking for the easy way. 10 % of the hunters kill 90% of the mountain game. Hunters are looking for the easy hunts.

Historical harvest on Region 5 grizzly, the residents only took 25 % of the bears. This was before LEH, why should residents get 60% if their AAH won't ever be reached?

Talking with the regional biologist,he felt the 60/40 split would give the best chance to achieve the AAH which he feels is to low to begin with.[/



If what you say is indeed the case why are residents on leh? open the season as see what the response is. Leh keeps a lot of the serious hunters out of the game. Guarantee you would see an increase in harvest. The 2007 allocation policy provided the mechanism to move some of those unnecessary leh hunts to GOS for residents. A move that the GOABC vehemently opposed and now we know why.

You just told the story! Keep residents on leh reduce their harvest and increase the outfitter share.

Story never changes from the Goabc. View resident hunters as competition and keep them on leh! But I am not telling you anything you don't already know!

[Fisher-Dude]

this should tell you something should it not.

Residents are changing fewer and fewer hunters are interested in hunting mountain game. Region 5 historically killed 60 goats a year, the past 10 years there has been little interest from the residents with at the most 25 goats taken take each year.

this is a trend for hunters in general, everyone looking for the easy way. 10 % of the hunters kill 90% of the mountain game. Hunters are looking for the easy hunts.

Historical harvest on Region 5 grizzly, the residents only took 25 % of the bears. This was before LEH, why should residents get 60% if their AAH won't ever be reached?

Talking with the regional biologist,he felt the 60/40 split would give the best chance to achieve the AAH which he feels is to low to begin with.

Goat harvest in R5 has only hit 60 kills 3 times in the past 37 years.

Average resi harvest over that period was 55% resi. Over the past 5 years, resis have harvested an average of 58% of goats. That's an increase in usage by residents, not a decrease.


Since 1976, resis have killed 436 g-bears, non-res 279.

Resi kill was 61% of total kill. That's a far cry from 25%.


Those God damned harvest stats should never be given to a resident hunter like me who likes to dispel the bullshit spewed around the Tatlayoko Lake coffee shop.

[Sitkaspruce]

this should tell you something should it not.

Residents are changing fewer and fewer hunters are interested in hunting mountain game. Region 5 historically killed 60 goats a year, the past 10 years there has been little interest from the residents with at the most 25 goats taken take each year.

this is a trend for hunters in general, everyone looking for the easy way. 10 % of the hunters kill 90% of the mountain game. Hunters are looking for the easy hunts.

Historical harvest on Region 5 grizzly, the residents only took 25 % of the bears. This was before LEH, why should residents get 60% if their AAH won't ever be reached?

Talking with the regional biologist,he felt the 60/40 split would give the best chance to achieve the AAH which he feels is to low to begin with.

CH, I disagree with this statement.

When I was in the game, most NR would chase moose, elk, bears and of course for the bragging rights, sheep, with a few interested in goats. Now goats are becoming a commodity for hunters and GO's. Back when I started, goat hunt costs were less than moose hunts, now they fetch more in most places, unless way up North, where moose have priced themselves out of most hunters reach unless you have the $$$. Goats are becoming the poor mans sheep and with record book animals being killed here in BC, prices have gone up, so outfitters now target them more. And of course for residents, the three letters GO's love to hear, LEH, drives the hunting of goats here in BC. By your analogy, we do not need to have goats on LEH and they should be on GOS. I bet if they were, the numbers would change, but that would then affect the GO's bottom line and we cannot have that. Plus, according to one wing nut who started posting on here last night, we kill mostly nannies.......

As for Caribou, the biggest factor in that is the access, most herds are accessible by either horses or planes, and most guys have neither, so the number who hunt caribou is restricted already. Again, if there was cheaper access, the number would change.

Why does AAH have to be achieved every year??? Can we not have a surplus to maybe build off of?? More goats and caribou are killed by nature than by hunters, so a little surplus, in my mind, is good.....is it not??

I would be curious as to why you think goats should still be one LEH if we are not hunting them to fulfill the AAH??

Cheers

SS

[bridger]

Good point SS if residents stay on leh. Less competition for g/o's. If residents stay on leh as CB has already said the non resident share is increased. Good business to keep us leh.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Goat harvest in R5 has only hit 60 kills 3 times in the past 37 years.

Average resi harvest over that period was 55% resi. Over the past 5 years, resis have harvested an average of 58% of goats. That's an increase in usage by residents, not a decrease.


Since 1976, resis have killed 436 g-bears, non-res 279.

Resi kill was 61% of total kill. That's a far cry from 25%.


Those God damned harvest stats should never be given to a resident hunter like me who likes to dispel the bullshit spewed around the Tatlayoko Lake coffee shop.

As usual you have not included all the facts, you should look at the numbers on grizzly prior to Ellis selling out to the greenies. That alone makes a huge difference he had quite a pile of bears between the 3 or 4 concessions he hunted.

If your statistics are correct what is wrong with the allocation split? Just passing on the stats that where passed on to me. But you did prove my point.
The allocation looks just fine for region 5.

This was one point the biologist did make, the new percentages on moose actually have the residents gaining 5% on moose not loosing 2% now the fractional areas are taken out of the outfitters allocation.
The real percentage for moose in Region 5 averages 18% for outfitters and guys like me who lost a a lot because of huge fractional areas in my MU are below 10%

[chilcotin hillbilly]

CH, I disagree with this statement.

When I was in the game, most NR would chase moose, elk, bears and of course for the bragging rights, sheep, with a few interested in goats. Now goats are becoming a commodity for hunters and GO's. Back when I started, goat hunt costs were less than moose hunts, now they fetch more in most places, unless way up North, where moose have priced themselves out of most hunters reach unless you have the $$$. Goats are becoming the poor mans sheep and with record book animals being killed here in BC, prices have gone up, so outfitters now target them more. And of course for residents, the three letters GO's love to hear, LEH, drives the hunting of goats here in BC. By your analogy, we do not need to have goats on LEH and they should be on GOS. I bet if they were, the numbers would change, but that would then affect the GO's bottom line and we cannot have that. Plus, according to one wing nut who started posting on here last night, we kill mostly nannies.......

As for Caribou, the biggest factor in that is the access, most herds are accessible by either horses or planes, and most guys have neither, so the number who hunt caribou is restricted already. Again, if there was cheaper access, the number would change.

Why does AAH have to be achieved every year??? Can we not have a surplus to maybe build off of?? More goats and caribou are killed by nature than by hunters, so a little surplus, in my mind, is good.....is it not??

I would be curious as to why you think goats should still be one LEH if we are not hunting them to fulfill the AAH??

Cheers

SS

I never said goats should be on LEH. I have a GOS in my area. the last 3 residents goats shot in my concession where all nannies! Residents need to better police themselves and quit making excuses for killing female grizz and goat. Most of it is not education it is laziness on the hunters part that kills the nannies.

[Fisher-Dude]

As usual you have not included all the facts, you should look at the numbers on grizzly prior to Ellis selling out to the greenies. That alone makes a huge difference he had quite a pile of bears between the 3 or 4 concessions he hunted.

If your statistics are correct what is wrong with the allocation split? Just passing on the stats that where passed on to me. But you did prove my point.
The allocation looks just fine for region 5.

This was one point the biologist did make, the new percentages on moose actually have the residents gaining 5% on moose not loosing 2% now the fractional areas are taken out of the outfitters allocation.
The real percentage for moose in Region 5 averages 18% for outfitters and guys like me who lost a a lot because of huge fractional areas in my MU are below 10%


Bullcrap. You said residents didn't shoot more than 25% of bears when in fact they shot 61% of bears, even when restricted from making their quota by overly-restrictive LEH.

And you said resident utilization goats has dropped because residents are too lazy to hunt goats, when in fact resident utilization of goats has been on the increase and guided fat Americans are too lazy to hunt them.

I disproved both of your assertions.

[burger]

I have one question. Why since region 5 is on LEH, which I presume is for conservation due to low numbers,is there any opportunity for NR to hunt moose?

Or for any locale or species where this is happening?

[rgn5hunt]

In 30 years residents hunters have lost 48% of their total harvest. In 30 years Non residents have lost, well, not much at all 3% of their harvest.

Talking Region 5 here..

[bridger]

As usual you have not included all the facts, you should look at the numbers on grizzly prior to Ellis selling out to the greenies. That alone makes a huge difference he had quite a pile of bears between the 3 or 4 concessions he hunted.

If your statistics are correct what is wrong with the allocation split? Just passing on the stats that where passed on to me. But you did prove my point.
The allocation looks just fine for region 5.

This was one point the biologist did make, the new percentages on moose actually have the residents gaining 5% on moose not loosing 2% now the fractional areas are taken out of the outfitters allocation.
The real percentage for moose in Region 5 averages 18% for outfitters and guys like me who lost a a lot because of huge fractional areas in my MU are below 10%

perhaps I am missing the point but are we not talking future allocations which will be increased, not those of present? New allocation moves moose to 25% that's about a 40% increase in non resident share if your figures are correct.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Bullcrap. You said residents didn't shoot more than 25% of bears when in fact they shot 61% of bears, even when restricted from making their quota by overly-restrictive LEH.

And you said resident utilization goats has dropped because residents are too lazy to hunt goats, when in fact resident utilization of goats has been on the increase and guided fat Americans are too lazy to hunt them.

I disproved both of your assertions.

Goats are easy to sell at least for me, but I still only take one hunter a year. the grizzly percentages where right from the bios mouth. Perhaps he was meaning West Chilcotin and not east of the Fraser? I kow for a fact he said grizz hunting in my area was a less then 25% resident harvest.

Can you explain the nanny harvest? I would say pure laziness, what is your opinion?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

perhaps I am missing the point but are we not talking future allocations which will be increased, not those of present? New allocation moves moose to 25% that's about a 40% increase in non resident share if your figures are correct.

explain my old allocation of 18 moose over 5 years now i have 6 over 5. This number is not going to increase at all when the next policy comes in.In my case the new formula will give me less the 1/2 a moose over 5 years so my 6 will remain 6. This is the case with a pile of small outfitters. But all these percentage points add up to make this make believe increase.

the math sounds good to the BCWF but most of use outfitters will not see any increase at all.

[Fisher-Dude]

the math sounds good to the BCWF but most of use outfitters will not see any increase at all.

Better call the Christy Liberals and tell them you guys want your $100,000 in campaign donations back.

[The Dawg]

Better call the Christy Liberals and tell them you guys want your $100,000 in campaign donations back.


Screw that, I want that $380k that went THEIR way out of our tax dollars, for 'tourism'

[Fisher-Dude]

Goats are easy to sell at least for me, but I still only take one hunter a year. the grizzly percentages where right from the bios mouth. Perhaps he was meaning West Chilcotin and not east of the Fraser? I kow for a fact he said grizz hunting in my area was a less then 25% resident harvest.

Can you explain the nanny harvest? I would say pure laziness, what is your opinion?


The average of 29% nanny harvest by non-residents? Is that what you're asking about?

Resis shoot 36% nannies. That's not a lot more than the "professional hunters" get their "discerning clients."

I didn't think those hot-shot guides let their clients shoot ANY nannies. Guess I was wrong on that one. Looks like it's about 1 in 3, pretty much the same ratio as the Kraft Dinner eating residents who ride around on quads all day.

[The Dawg]

The average of 29% nanny harvest by non-residents? Is that what you're asking about?

Resis shoot 36% nannies. That's not a lot more than the "professional hunters" get their "discerning clients."

I didn't think those hot-shot guides let their clients shoot ANY nannies. Guess I was wrong on that one. Looks like it's about 1 in 3, pretty much the same ratio as the Kraft Dinner eating residents who ride around on quads all day.


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2870921/burn-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2870921/burn-o.gif

[srupp]

Wow...seen so many numbers...drastically different numbers just for region 5..one says it wont affect resident hunters another goes to the opposite extreme that resident hunters here have lost 48% of the moose opportunities....hm proves the old addage..lies big lies and statistics..
Sheesh lived here for a lot of years, done a bunch of hunting..and I dont know which to believe..can you imagine the general public? With this confusion..it will be an ace slam for the government..
Personal opininon...in a fight keep your friends close and the opposition even closer..
This starting to feel like the legislative assembly..arguing with everyone and anyone..
We do need to get to the bottom of this..and please determain the facts However in the process lets not destroy or try to others that wear different hats..this one day will be over and not everyone makes these decisions we all bear the consequences

You kids play nice..oh ya Jimmy get your finger off that trigger....

Slower than all the rest
Steven

[40incher]

explain my old allocation of 18 moose over 5 years now i have 6 over 5. This number is not going to increase at all when the next policy comes in.In my case the new formula will give me less the 1/2 a moose over 5 years so my 6 will remain 6. This is the case with a pile of small outfitters. But all these percentage points add up to make this make believe increase.

the math sounds good to the BCWF but most of use outfitters will not see any increase at all.


Hey There Chilcotin,

Your story sounds very much like those of the smaller GO territories in Region 6 (Skeena). When the dust settled after the 2007 policy "agreement" the big guides robbed the smaller ones ... I can quote the exact numbers if you like. The bigger guides, one of which was a principle player for the GOABC team, kept their quota while the smaller ones lost 50% or more of their quota!!

In the South Skeena the total guided quota went from 291 bull moose per year to 207, but the pain was only shared by the smaller territories. The BC residents allocation was determined at 693 bulls but we are barely killing 550 on average right now. Instead of increasing LEH numbers the bureaucrats have decreased them!? Sounds like there is some common ground between BC resident hunters and some of the grassroots GO's out there ... we're both being screwed by the GOABC and the government, and their reps!!

Just another reason why Fibber Thompson's December 10th decree should be taken back to "all" those affected. I think most resident hunters would like to see the small operators continue on, and do not support the hunting conglomerates that are being favored!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Wow...seen so many numbers...drastically different numbers just for region 5..one says it wont affect resident hunters another goes to the opposite extreme that resident hunters here have lost 48% of the moose opportunities....hm proves the old addage..lies big lies and statistics..
Sheesh lived here for a lot of years, done a bunch of hunting..and I dont know which to believe..can you imagine the general public? With this confusion..it will be an ace slam for the government..
Personal opininon...in a fight keep your friends close and the opposition even closer..
This starting to feel like the legislative assembly..arguing with everyone and anyone..
We do need to get to the bottom of this..and please determain the facts However in the process lets not destroy or try to others that wear different hats..this one day will be over and not everyone makes these decisions we all bear the consequences

You kids play nice..oh ya Jimmy get your finger off that trigger....

Slower than all the rest
Steven


Well, you can believe the numbers your BSing guide friend made up trying to further the GOABC's agenda of taking our animals away from us, or you can believe the numbers I have presented from 37 years of compulsory inspected animals and harvest stats.

Your choice.

[The Dawg]

Well, you can believe the numbers your BSing guide friend made up trying to further the GOABC's agenda of taking our animals away from us, or you can believe the numbers I have presented from 37 years of compulsory inspected animals and harvest stats.

Your choice.


http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/12/friday-damn.gif

[rgn5hunt]

Lets take our thoughts of Guide Allotment Numbers, how many Resident hunters will come to 100 Mile Next Saturday ? 75, 125, 200?

[srupp]

Weministry'scan belis joteve the numbers your BSing guide friend made up trying to further the GOABC's agenda of taking our animals away from us, or you can believe the numbers I have presented from 37 years of compulsory inspected animals and harvest stats.

Your choice.

No hmms about It Chilcotin hillbilly is not a bullshitter..straightshooter..so that is settled.
Other than your occasional statements about unions I actually have profound respect for you also Fisher Dude...and I did not know about your position as compulsory inspection and the length of time...yes you obviously should have the facts and figures..
I have seen the Impact of the ministry and will leave the numbers as they affect Ch To him.They are accurate..in his case...maybe different areas different outfitters .
Im sure CH can deal with the facts..my concern Is not one guiding area but the entire region 5, and the province..what are we the resident hunters losing?
Looking back at past numbers I can not see huge differences in alocation..yes I have read policy from 2007,2009 and recent thompson decision and updated decision sheep allocation, goats grizxlies and moose I dont get the 60 or the 600.
I know that It was substantial change from gos moose here to leh but cant find the right numbers..
All this with a university background,
Slow and confused

[bridger]

This whole issue is easy to understand if you look past the smokescreen Ellis and the premeire are throwing up. The exact numbers of animals is not as important as is the direction of the overall plan the goabc is putting together. Go back to the economic viability plan that Ellis presented on 2009 and that he is still presenting.

The goabc is asking government to change to the benefit of g/o's the way in which wildlife and hunting seasons are managed. These changes really impact resident hunters.

1) manage all species for trophy hunting. No regulations that support meat hunting by residents

2) no support for regulations that will increase resident hunter numbers at the expense of quality hunting experiences (trophy hunting). Which means no moving leh hunts to GOS something that was in the 2007 allocation policy.

3) no open seasons for residents if guides are on quota. ( no resident priority. All resident sheep hunters on leh)

This is a longterm plan by the Goabc to keep residents on leh, put all resident sheep hunters on leh, and to further reduce resident hunter numbers by reducing opportunities.

Chilicotin Hillbilly talked earlier on this thread that residents weren't taking enough goats so the bio increased the non resident share. Part of the plan. Keep resident harvest low with leh. Increase g/o share He also complained about residents taking nannies (non trophies in the eyes of g/o's) sheep guides are always complaining residents shoot under 8 year old rams. ( not a trophy if not over eight years old) too many sows in the grizzly harvest. The list goes on.

I know a lot of the smaller outfitters are having a tough time with moose numbers down, but giving them more quota isn't going to solve their problems.. 25% of f/a is still f/a. The small outfitters are not driving the goabc bus. They have been thrown under it as well.

The real issue here is that government has virtually abandoned wildlife management and the Goabc is supporting that direction by crying poor and asking for increased quota instead of proper management.

Some of the key issues in the allocation policy of 2007:

Were reasonable percentages, movement away from leh(to be used only as a last resort) and that we would work together to change the direction of management.

These ingredients were arrived at to ensure the sustainability of the guiding industry, maintain and create more opportunities for residents, and really benefit the resource. By charting it's own course the Goabc has basically abandoned any pre text of co-operation.

As a resident hunter I feel really threatened by back room deals that are really political payback and the direction I see my hunting future going. My considerable experience in allocation issues tells me this push by the Goabc will continue until the three objectives are met. This campaign won't stop at the Thomson Decision.

[Fisher-Dude]

Excellent post Rich.

The figures speak for themselves: the Christy Liberals are executing GOABC's plan for them. We've seen over and over and over again ministerial direction to keep resident hunters out and shift allocation to guide outfitters.

They've finally pushed us past the breaking point. This is not going to end well for the Christy Liberals and the GOABC, in my opinion. It will cost Snookums the election, and the GOABC won't be able to get their cake and eat it too without the Christy Liberals pulling strings for them.

When you see a Minister in the Legislature so obviously shaking from dodging and stressing, you know that it's only a matter of time before the rest of the public gets the full story. Most on here have just seen snippets of the rot that has been uncovered. Stay tuned.

[flyboy]

The more reading I do the more I have to agree, it is the smaller outfitters who are paying for the big boys and executive gain.

So I have to wonder WHY DON'T YOU SMALLER OUTFITTERS GO TO YOUR VOICE(GOABC) AND ASK WHY THAT IS? WHY WOULD YOU BACK AN ORGANIZATION THAT DOESNT HAVE ALL ITS MEMBERS INTRESTS? IF YOUR HAPPY WITH WHAT YOUR GETTING FROM THE GOABC THEN ALL THAT CAN MEAN IS THERES MORE TO THIS THEN ALLOCATION NUMBERS.

[flyboy]

On another note how can they spout off wanting no meat hunting for residents yet go on the outfitter sites and see the deals to be had on MOOSE MEAT HUNTS AROUND PG?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

There should be no nannies being shot. Period! there really is no excuse for it. I only see what goes on in my little guiding world, but I would bet the other guides that are shooting nannies are resident hunters to.

[bridger]

There should be no nannies being shot. Period! there really is no excuse for it. I only see what goes on in my little guiding world, but I would bet the other guides that are shooting nannies are resident hunters to.

Does that mean no cow moose, no cow elk, no doe mule deer? No meat hunting for residents. If wildlife managers don't want nannies harvested for conservation concerns let them make the call.

Your attitude is typical of a trophy hunting only platform. Sounds like Ellis talking.

You are typically missing the point in this entire issue. That being!

We need to get politics and personal agendas the hell out of wildlife management. And no I don't believe guide outfitters are qualified to manage wildlife. Nor do I believe most of them are concerned about anything other than their bottom line. Bighorn off quota sorta tells it all!

You seem to be an exception so how about dealing with the real issue for a change! You need more moose on the landscape not more from the residents harvest share. Deal with that issue and leave residents harvest share alone.

Work with us, quit beating a dead horse. Increased quota means nothing. Doubling the moose population? Priceless!

[Buck]

I see the big picture in this and in the long term the GOABC greed will destroy them.Any support that they think they have is only 1 election away.Everyone in BC can see that this Government is strictly business driven and could care less for our hunting and fishing heritage.Keep up the pressure do not falter.

[Fisher-Dude]

There should be no nannies being shot. Period! there really is no excuse for it. I only see what goes on in my little guiding world, but I would bet the other guides that are shooting nannies are resident hunters to.

If there were a conservation problem with shooting nannies, then wildlife managers would forbid it.

It's obvious you have little (read: ZERO) idea of what's happening with wildlife harvest. You jump around like a grasshopper in a frying pan when proven wrong, and each time you blame a resident hunter for your own errors.

I've seen a pile of resident hunters that have absorbed a lot of information because they have chosen to learn. They're becoming more aware, becoming engaged in the discussion, and are willing to throw preconceived notions aside when new information gives them insight into something. Sure would be nice if that willingness extended to your group of cronies.

[Wild one]

If there were a conservation problem with shooting nannies, then wildlife managers would forbid it.

It's obvious you have little (read: ZERO) idea of what's happening with wildlife harvest. You jump around like a grasshopper in a frying pan when proven wrong, and each time you blame a resident hunter for your own errors.

I've seen a pile of resident hunters that have absorbed a lot of information because they have chosen to learn. They're becoming more aware, becoming engaged in the discussion, and are willing to throw preconceived notions aside when new information gives them insight into something. Sure would be nice if that willingness extended to your group of cronies.

Lots of studies out there that say shooting nannies is not good for the population.

I have spoken to a bio about this and the response I was given was the reason it is allowed is the difficulty many have telling the difference between billies and nannies. This could have just been this bio's opinion but it is the reason I was given.