What would it take?

[Huevos]

I know everyone likes an epic battle between an oppressor and an underdog, but this is getting out of hand. What will it take to fix our provincial allocation policy so we can get back to conservation and enjoying what our beautiful province has to offer? Would a return to the "original" deal that was made and then rejected by you know who be an option still? i feel like this is sucking the life out of us all.

[Caribou_lou]

I believe the "original" policy (prior to the 2007 policy) didn't guarantee the guides any percentage. Which is why GOABC felt they needed to revise it.

To be honest. I'd be disappointed if they agreed to anything more than 90/10.

[Liptugger]

I would think a return to the 2007 policy and return the requirement of being a resident of B.C. and a must to reducing the quota the next year if a guide goes over. It may not be perfect, but it was hard fought and agreed on once.

[pg83]

We have to stick to our guns. The current allocation and even the 2007 allocation are just not good enough. We have been giving(and they have been taking on top) too much to the GO's for far too long.

[HarryToolips]

As was said, we should not be agreeing to anything over 10% givin to the G/O's, why do they need more than other similar jurisdictions in North America?? It may take voting the BC Liberals out, which is what we should be doing next election anyway...

[000buck]

A revolution... Back to government for the people by the people. Make it volunteer ... Like firefighters, get the greed out!

[itsy bitsy xj]

A revolution... Back to government for the people by the people. Make it volunteer ... Like firefighters, get the greed out!

X2
Or open season on the Liberal party

[Sofa King]

this has forever divided and weakened the hunting community. and who knows, maybe there is someone else involved who's objective was just that. of the parties that we know are involved, resident hunters are driven by opportunities being taken away from our own residents and given/sold to foreigners, the government and goabc are purely driven by the greed for the almightly dollar.

[Sofa King]

and im not so sure its just a liberal thing. i could see any party doing this. i dont know why, but bc has forever been run very differently than any other province, no matter what political party is in. bc loves making everything so difficult, and making a million rules and regulations, they just love red tape.

[Whonnock Boy]

I would think a return to the 2007 policy and return the requirement of being a resident of B.C. and a must to reducing the quota the next year if a guide goes over. It may not be perfect, but it was hard fought and agreed on once.

The 2007 policy was a terrible deal for us. A few people are not getting that, including yourself. Anything less than a 90/10 split is a bad deal for resident hunters.

[Wentrot]

A revolution... Back to government for the people by the people. Make it volunteer ... Like firefighters, get the greed out!

Yup thatd be nice.

[GoatGuy]

Back to conservation?

Can someone list me the projects GOABC is involved with or has spear-headed that involve conservation or have shown an increase in ungulate populations?

[r106]

I would be happy with 92/8 - 90/10 for moose, elk and deer. 85/15 - 80/20 for sheep, goat and grizz. I would also like to see the " loophole " the foreigners use to own guiding teritories gone. If its a business that the residents of this province or this country don't benifit from then why have it. I would still like to see guide/outfitters have a successful future in BC but the GOABC is doing a great job on making residents want the industry to die.

[Philcott]

And no tenure on the land that could result in us not being able to go in an area to hunt.

[Whonnock Boy]

It will take a hell of a lot more than the Liberals are offering. No more than 10% of all species to foreign non-residents. Notice I did not say guide outfitters. Why? Because the animals do not belong to them.


Is this a trick question?


Back to conservation?

Can someone list me the projects GOABC is involved with or has spear-headed that involve conservation or have shown an increase in ungulate populations?

[one-shot-wonder]

I know everyone likes an epic battle between an oppressor and an underdog, but this is getting out of hand. What will it take to fix our provincial allocation policy so we can get back to conservation and enjoying what our beautiful province has to offer? Would a return to the "original" deal that was made and then rejected by you know who be an option still? i feel like this is sucking the life out of us all.

Sucking the life out of us all.....you know what, some things are worth fighting for.

A line needs to be drawn and legislated so we can all move on. BCWF still continues its efforts in conservation and encourage families to experience and use the outdoors wisely. GOBC (or whoever they come out as on the other side) not sure if they will start building conservation capacity, but I sure hope so!

[40incher]

Sucking the life out of us all.....you know what, some things are worth fighting for.

A line needs to be drawn and legislated so we can all move on. BCWF still continues its efforts in conservation and encourage families to experience and use the outdoors wisely. GOBC (or whoever they come out as on the other side) not sure if they will start building conservation capacity, but I sure hope so!


For sure, this is the "hill to die on"!!

I would be very disappointed if resident hunters got less that 90% for moose, elk, goat, etc ...

For sheep 80% and grizzly 60%. We are not being allowed to kill our quota on grizzly anyways due to bureaucratic dysfunction ... the guides aren't killing theirs either. Back in the day when the residents and guides actually sat down and made allocation agreements on our own we agreed to a 50/50 split. Unfortunately this no longer happens.

I have always spoken against the allocation rewrite that resulted in the 2007 dictum. It's not even an "agreement" according to the GOABC ... they never signed on. It was just a policy anyways they said, meant nothing, and then the backroom talks with Crispy and Co. began. Hence the December 10th announcement.

The policy in place in 2003, and prior, was just fine with some carefully-worded changes to update to the reality of the situation. As I have said many times, it gives the guides 0.000 % (that would be nothing) for minimums. That's why the guides pushed for rewrite and some were sucked into it. I really hate saying "I told you so" ... so I won't. Not now anyways!

So ... the question I would ask is "why aren't we demanding a return to the original plan"??. A plan that was devised by some very wise people decades ago? It was designed to allow the guides to utilize some under-harvested species until such time that resident demand precluded non-resident opportunities. That is reality ... please correct me if you disagree.

It's too bad that the developers of the original hunting allocation policy and procedures are all likely dead and gone. I'm sure they would be turning over, as the saying goes, right now!!

Let's keep up the good fight!!

[The Dawg]

90-10 across the board.

Why should a non -resident get a guaranteed shot at an animal, and a resident has to win a lottery for it?


The Guide business was NEVER meant to be a full-time position, and yet they want to make it one.

Its a completely non-viable and broken business model, and it needs to be revamped completely from the bottom up.

[Ride Red]

Sucking the life out of us all.....you know what, some things are worth fighting for.

A line needs to be drawn and legislated so we can all move on. BCWF still continues its efforts in conservation and encourage families to experience and use the outdoors wisely. GOBC (or whoever they come out as on the other side) not sure if they will start building conservation capacity, but I sure hope so!

Adversity makes us stronger, let's keep the fight alive. I'm still stuck on 95/5 across the board as this would give us some bargaining room. As far as FN, one land one law.

[bigdogeh]

90-10 across the board.

Why should a non -resident get a guaranteed shot at an animal, and a resident has to win a lottery for it?


The Guide business was NEVER meant to be a full-time position, and yet they want to make it one.

Its a completely non-viable and broken business model, and it needs to be revamped completely from the bottom up.

I'm with the dawg on this one. 90-10 across the board. if they can't make it on that, too bad, so sad. don't remember getting a bailout when the company I worked for 8 years ago went under....

maybe they could take some of the 160 moose allotted to the GO 100 miles northwest of PG and divide that amongst their brethren...

[Huevos]

I agree that some things are fighting for. To be completely honest with you all, I want you to know I am a guide outfitter. I do not belong to the GOABC, and have been sitting on the fence watching the whole mess. I have only been a guide outfitter for a short time so I missed the years leading up to this. In 2012 my area lost just over 25% of our bull moose allocations, along with our cow tags. We had to adjust our business plan, which we did to keep our business viable. It cost us a bit, but not the end of the world. Adjustments are needed from time to time which includes fluctuations in tags to ensure healthy populations. I figured both residents and outfitters in my area lost tags. Apparently some outfitters are not as flexible as others and cannot adjust to change.
I find myself sitting on fence, torn between the two sides. Emotion has taken over on both sides, which is understandable, but tends to cloud judgement. There is propaganda flying around on both sides, trying to sway the public one way or the other.What is wrong with using an arbitrator at this point? Both sides sit down, and hash out a deal that both are unsatisfied with, and make them sign it?

[monasheemountainman]

you are preaching to the wrong choir here man, we will not be settling for anything less than a 90-10% split. join us or join them either way its a tough battle but we are right here and there is no room for fence sitting.

[Wentrot]

you are preaching to the wrong choir here man, we will not be settling for anything less than a 90-10% split. join us or join them either way its a tough battle but we are right here and there is no room for fence sitting.

x2.........

[Wild one]

Good to hear you have an open mind Huevos. I respect that you did not come crying poor me and have taken the time to adjust your business to keep it running

Both resident and GO's have had decrease in moose tags do to populations. This is not good for either side. The only right way to deal with this is focus on habitat and proper management of the numbers. Both sides would benefit from this and should be top priority.

The problem truly lies with why should GO's get the proposed % when they are a small portion of the users of the wildlife?

With a 90/10 split working in most if not all North America why are BC GO's entitled to the higher % proposed?

Most resident hunters would also like to see outfits owned and operated by BC residents or Canadians at the min. Unfortunately this is not the case with many. From a BC economy stand point it would benefit BC a lot more. This way it would be more viable for owners to use these territories to supplement their income.

Unfortunately with what has been brought forward resident hunters have been back into a corner where we have no option but to stand up and fight. I don't see this fight ending till it hit a 90/10 split now which is an industry standard in North America.

GOABC got greedy rather than working with resident hunters on projects to help wildlife and hunters as a whole. This has lit one hell of a fire

I don't see an agreement even coming close with the proposals put forward at this time.

Thanks for being respectful talking to resident hunters and I think we all would like to see this end and both parties focus on wildlife instead.

[taper arrow]

Let me remind the liberal government that you are not losing just 102,000 voters. I can convinced my wife and son assume (1 for each families) that will mean X 3 = 309,000 voters. Assuming some hunters still vote for them and some have more them 1 family members and some new public members, can the Liberal party afford to ignore 300,000 voters?

[flyboy]

Huevos

Glad to see you took the time to come onto this site. Interesting to hear some of your points.

If I may can I ask why you do not belong to GOABC? I hear they do wonderful things for the outfitters?

[The Dawg]

I agree that some things are fighting for. To be completely honest with you all, I want you to know I am a guide outfitter. I do not belong to the GOABC, and have been sitting on the fence watching the whole mess. I have only been a guide outfitter for a short time so I missed the years leading up to this. In 2012 my area lost just over 25% of our bull moose allocations, along with our cow tags. We had to adjust our business plan, which we did to keep our business viable. It cost us a bit, but not the end of the world. Adjustments are needed from time to time which includes fluctuations in tags to ensure healthy populations. I figured both residents and outfitters in my area lost tags. Apparently some outfitters are not as flexible as others and cannot adjust to change.
I find myself sitting on fence, torn between the two sides. Emotion has taken over on both sides, which is understandable, but tends to cloud judgement. There is propaganda flying around on both sides, trying to sway the public one way or the other.What is wrong with using an arbitrator at this point? Both sides sit down, and hash out a deal that both are unsatisfied with, and make them sign it?


They had 3 independent advisers submit reports with solutions leading up to this.

Guess what side said no?

[BimmerBob]

I am solidly with the Dawg, 90/10 split if there is a General Open Season (GOS) in the area in question, if there is not GOS then ZERO to the Guide Outfitters. If the game population is not adequate to support a GOS then it is not adequate to sell to non-resident hunters. I support RESIDENT opportunity FIRST, anything else is just dumb, why should I as a resident have to enter a lottery to hunt something that is just given to a guide/outfitter?

[Whonnock Boy]

Fact is, the general consensus of the rh is, 90/10 across the board. Our argument is valid, we are gaining support everyday, and it is time to make a stand.

[monasheemountainman]

I am solidly with the Dawg, 90/10 split if there is a General Open Season (GOS) in the area in question, if there is not GOS then ZERO to the Guide Outfitters. If the game population is not adequate to support a GOS then it is not adequate to sell to non-resident hunters. I support RESIDENT opportunity FIRST, anything else is just dumb, why should I as a resident have to enter a lottery to hunt something that is just given to a guide/outfitter?

this exactly!

[btridge]

There are 3.2 million eligible voters in BC.

102,000 hunters =3% of the voters. 300,000 hunters & family=9% of the voters.


Last election the GREEN party got 147 thousand votes & only won 1 seat.

The BCCP got less than 78 thousand votes & 0 seats.


Not voting for the Libs by all of the hunting community & family will assure an NDP victory!

The liberals won the last election by winning the popular vote by less than 79,000 votes. many of their seats where won with large majorities, many more where won with slim margins....How many seats do you think will be put in play with even a 100,000 votes? If I was Christy, I would be very concerned!

[gerrygoat]

I am solidly with the Dawg, 90/10 split if there is a General Open Season (GOS) in the area in question, if there is not GOS then ZERO to the Guide Outfitters. If the game population is not adequate to support a GOS then it is not adequate to sell to non-resident hunters. I support RESIDENT opportunity FIRST, anything else is just dumb, why should I as a resident have to enter a lottery to hunt something that is just given to a guide/outfitter?

I could go for this but maybe give a slightly larger percentage of grizzly than 10% to non resident guided hunts. In the southern Skeena region the guides should only be able to hunt moose like the rest of us October 20-26 and that's it.

And the GOABC must be eliminated along with foreign ownership of guide territories.

Also a zero tolerance policy for guide/outfitters who break the law, one infraction and the rights to their area are taken away and go vacant with no guides being able to operate there. I am tired of the large number or guides who break the law and only get a slap on the wrist, there needs to be consequences to stop it.

[btridge]

I could go for this but maybe give a slightly larger percentage of grizzly than 10% to non resident guided hunts. In the southern Skeena region the guides should only be able to hunt moose like the rest of us October 20-26 and that's it.

And the GOABC must be eliminated along with foreign ownership of guide territories.

Also a zero tolerance policy for guide/outfitters who break the law, one infraction and the rights to their area are taken away and go vacant with no guides being able to operate there. I am tired of the large number or guides who break the law and only get a slap on the wrist, there needs to be consequences to stop it.
I disagree with giving more than 10% of ANY species to the guide outfitters....10% MAX PERIOD!

[gerrygoat]

I could live with that too.........

[tuner]

The liberals won the last election by winning the popular vote by less than 79,000 votes. many of their seats where won with large majorities, many more where won with slim margins....How many seats do you think will be put in play with even a 100,000 votes? If I was Christy, I would be very concerned!
A high percentage of the hunter vote, lie outside the LML, candidates in small rural electoral districts should be really worried. I'd venture to guess that many MLA's representing rural ridings are probably secretly furious with Clark,Thompson and the rest of the upper escelon of the liberal party. They have placed them in a very compremising position.Most probably see the folly of this policy,but are hamstrung into keeping quiet.They are well aware,that by giving into the GOABC demands,they have alienated their core supporters, the ones who actually voted for them.

[Huevos]

I don't really know why I didn't join when I first started, but since then I have some reasons that would make me hesitate to join. There are a lot of members that I respect, and are good people, but there are some that I just cannot see myself trusting. Some of these people have prominent positions in GOABC. I do not really want to get into them here as most are personal, but to put it simple, I don't see eye to eye with some of their policies and practices. The outfitting industry really is broken, and I can see now that its going to take some major repair to mend what has happened. Looks like it may be time to climb off the fence. Honestly, I haven't done a lot with either outfitters, or residents in the past couple of years. I have been busy learning the business and trying very hard to keep my head above the water. It is time for me to get involved in both sides. I will be looking into joining BCWF and working with the local groups when I get back from selling hunts next week. As far as demand for non resident hunting, I can tell you that I am booked solid into next year. The demand is as strong as it ever was, there are just less tags now.

[Huevos]

Sorry guys, I thought the quote would show with the last post. Someone asked why I didn't join GOABC

[gerrygoat]

I don't really know why I didn't join when I first started, but since then I have some reasons that would make me hesitate to join. There are a lot of members that I respect, and are good people, but there are some that I just cannot see myself trusting. Some of these people have prominent positions in GOABC. I do not really want to get into them here as most are personal, but to put it simple, I don't see eye to eye with some of their policies and practices. The outfitting industry really is broken, and I can see now that its going to take some major repair to mend what has happened. Looks like it may be time to climb off the fence. Honestly, I haven't done a lot with either outfitters, or residents in the past couple of years. I have been busy learning the business and trying very hard to keep my head above the water. It is time for me to get involved in both sides. I will be looking into joining BCWF and working with the local groups when I get back from selling hunts next week. As far as demand for non resident hunting, I can tell you that I am booked solid into next year. The demand is as strong as it ever was, there are just less tags now.

Your honesty is refreshing, thanks.

Curious to know what percentages would you be happy with? You asked for what we thought and it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

[Buck]

If your outfit is in a LEH area i would suggest that you get an off season job as well because i will not give you any more allocation that takes away from residents with the current conservation model that the LIBs and GOABC promote.

[Huevos]

If your outfit is in a LEH area i would suggest that you get an off season job as well because i will not give you any more allocation that takes away from residents with the current conservation model that the LIBs and GOABC promote.
Thanks for the tip. Although I wouldn't want to take away a real job from another resident as well.

[Huevos]

Your honesty is refreshing, thanks.

Curious to know what percentages would you be happy with? You asked for what we thought and it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as a percentage. For example, harvest is a management tool, certain places with restricted access where residents don't take enough animals could be allocated to outfitters to reach harvest goals. Or where the granola a bought up all the coastal territories and no longer harvest the grizzlies, those tags should be allocate to residents to keep populations in check. There needs to be some flexibility, afforded for sound management.

[zippermouth]

I don't think it is as cut and dry as a percentage. For example, harvest is a management tool, certain places with restricted access where residents don't take enough animals could be allocated to outfitters to reach harvest goals. Or where the granola a bought up all the coastal territories and no longer harvest the grizzlies, those tags should be allocate to residents to keep populations in check. There needs to be some flexibility, afforded for sound management.
bingo! flexibility on both sides is key.

[Whonnock Boy]

How about they just open it up to GOS? If an area is underutilized, it can obviously sustain a general open season.


certain places with restricted access where residents don't take enough animals could be allocated to outfitters to reach harvest goals.

[gerrygoat]

Interesting thought Huevos..........

[LYKTOHUNT]

I agree that some things are fighting for. To be completely honest with you all, I want you to know I am a guide outfitter. I do not belong to the GOABC, and have been sitting on the fence watching the whole mess. I have only been a guide outfitter for a short time so I missed the years leading up to this. In 2012 my area lost just over 25% of our bull moose allocations, along with our cow tags. We had to adjust our business plan, which we did to keep our business viable. It cost us a bit, but not the end of the world. Adjustments are needed from time to time which includes fluctuations in tags to ensure healthy populations. I figured both residents and outfitters in my area lost tags. Apparently some outfitters are not as flexible as others and cannot adjust to change.
I find myself sitting on fence, torn between the two sides. Emotion has taken over on both sides, which is understandable, but tends to cloud judgement. There is propaganda flying around on both sides, trying to sway the public one way or the other.What is wrong with using an arbitrator at this point? Both sides sit down, and hash out a deal that both are unsatisfied with, and make them sign it?
I thought that a deal had been hashed out in 2007, what is wrong with that deal

[Whonnock Boy]

We were screwed then, and we are really getting screwed now. The 2007 policy is a far cry from 90/10.


I thought that a deal had been hashed out in 2007, what is wrong with that deal

[Buck]

I don't think it is as cut and dry as a percentage. For example, harvest is a management tool, certain places with restricted access where residents don't take enough animals could be allocated to outfitters to reach harvest goals. Or where the granola a bought up all the coastal territories and no longer harvest the grizzlies, those tags should be allocate to residents to keep populations in check. There needs to be some flexibility, afforded for sound management.

do you mean restricted areas like this:
Tell you what when we have a 90/10 split we will talk

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii612/bigdogeh/provincial%20sign.jpg

[XMD70]

Far more $ needs to be put into wildlife management in order to give us a better picture of the true harvestable surplus in all WMU's for all species. Once thats done, anything surplus to the demands of RH and FN could go to non resident hunters. No meat should leave the Province. All animal parts exported should have a royalty due equal to their value (eg: grizzly bear hides have a value of up to $1000.)

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Far more $ needs to be put into wildlife management in order to give us a better picture of the true harvestable surplus in all WMU's for all species. Once thats done, anything surplus to the demands of RH and FN could go to non resident hunters. No meat should leave the Province. All animal parts exported should have a royalty due equal to their value (eg: grizzly bear hides have a value of up to $1000.)

Royalties are due on every animal killed. Grizzly is $1000 for royalty fee. This is one of the reasons the government likes non resident hunters, they receive $2000 in their pockets compared to a resident who coughs up $75 for the same hunt

[ICEWOODY]

Send out end of season card for all fn too

[j270wsm]

Send out end of season card for all fn too


You honestly think the majority are going to fill it out.......??? Or fill it out accurately....?????