LEH discussion

[Gateholio]

You bet it would, especially for the high odds draws. "Hey, want to buy my Kamloops Lake draw?", or "Even though grandpa can't get out anymore, I'll still put him in because I can always go." At this point, you may as well allow me to buy as many applications for a species as I want.

I would rather see the tag redrawn if a successful applicant can not utilize it or have a list of hunters who are willing to go "stand by".

I am sure that would be discussed, and there are ways to deal wiht it, of course (No "arms lenght" transfers of LEH draws over 5 to 1 for example)8-)

[Mr. Dean]

You bet it would, especially for the high odds draws. "Hey, want to buy my Kamloops Lake draw?", or "Even though grandpa can't get out anymore, I'll still put him in because I can always go." At this point, you may as well allow me to buy as many applications for a species as I want.

I would rather see the tag redrawn if a successful applicant can not utilize it or have a list of hunters who are willing to go "stand by".
Correct me if I'm wrong;

It doesn't matter how many entries are made, what does matter is harvest #'s and hunter #'s. Harvest #'s will not change, only the odds for a given hunt due to more people participating.

Having your odd's increasing by a factor of one (Grandpa's tag) isn't such a big deal. Everybody would be in the same canoe, assuming that most hunters have family/friends participating. Again, a factor of one is only a slight edge, not a land-slide sure thing.

In my Utopia, some sort of a transfer fee payable to the HCTF would be of order. The selling of tags (privately) should be a BIG no no. Any monies that derive from our wildlife, should only benifit our wildlife.


At this point, you may as well allow me to buy as many applications for a species as I want.
That statement is just plain silly. I can't see how you correlate this view, when comparing it with the transfer of a LEH tag (?).

In the end, it's better for the Resident Hunters as a whole, to utilize and cut that tag, instead of it being wasted. If I win a draw, my odd's of winning it again, go down. I don't see the problem with me being the director of whom it goes to if I can't use it. All I can see are benifits - Increased participants of the LEH - Increased hunter #'s - Increased $$ for our wildlife.

WIN - WIN - WIN

[Tinney]

In the end, it's better for the Resident Hunters as a whole, to utilize and cut that tag, instead of it being wasted. If I win a draw, my odd's of winning it again, go down. I don't see the problem with me being the director of whom it goes to if I can't use it. All I can see are benifits - Increased participants of the LEH - Increased hunter #'s - Increased $$ for our wildlife.

WIN - WIN - WIN

I agree.

I have a quick question that is more theoretical than anything:

Why is it that we have better success in years when, as a family, we apply for our draws using LEH forms with consecutive numbers? EG: 23001, 23002, 23003 for moose, 23004, 23005, 23006 for deer etc? Last year my family landed 6 our of nine draws we entered for and we have noticed this in the past. If we buy nine LEH's with consecutive numbers, we get draws. s that just co-incidence? Random chance? I think it is, but the results are there.

Now watch everyone buy their LEH's in order now :lol:

[brno375]

Correct me if I'm wrong;

It doesn't matter how many entries are made, what does matter is harvest #'s and hunter #'s. Harvest #'s will not change, only the odds for a given hunt due to more people participating.

Having your odd's increasing by a factor of one (Grandpa's tag) isn't such a big deal. Everybody would be in the same canoe, assuming that most hunters have family/friends participating. Again, a factor of one is only a slight edge, not a land-slide sure thing.

In my Utopia, some sort of a transfer fee payable to the HCTF would be of order. The selling of tags (privately) should be a BIG no no. Any monies that derive from our wildlife, should only benifit our wildlife.

That statement is just plain silly. I can't see how you correlate this view, when comparing it with the transfer of a LEH tag (?).

In the end it's better for the Resident Hunters as a whole, to utilize and cut that tag, instead of it being wasted. If I win a draw, my odd's of winning it, again, go down. I don't see the problem with me being the director of whom it goes to if I can't use it. All I can see are benifits - Increased participants of the LEH - Increased hunter #'s - Increased $$ for our wildlife.

WIN - WIN - WIN

If it does not matter how many entries are made, then what does it matter if the number of applications for species in unlimited (using the same code of course)?

How do hunter numbers go up when the "hunters" in your family put in, never having the intention of going, but only to transfer the tag to you if they win? Here is a perfect example: My wife, her grandfather, and uncle all have hunter numbers but they have not bought a licence in years. I get them to put in for Kamloops Lake as well in hopes that they win and transfer the allocation to me. Kechika, on the other hand, does not have anyone in his family with a hunter number so he is left with one chance at 600:1 while my chance in now at 150:1. The playing field is now uneven and the number of hunters in the field remains the same.

To keep things fair, the rule should remain at one application per species, and if a successful applicant is not able to go, the tag should go back in the pot and be reallocated. If there is a box on the card that asks "Are you willing to be on a stanby list for this species?", then the ministry can draw from those hunters.

Transfer Fee? Let's keep taxation to a minimum.

I agree that it is best for resident hunters to be successful and cut a tag, rather than a draw go wasted (especially with the new allocation policy), however, I do not believe hunters being able to transfer allocations amongst themselves is the way to do it. If this is allowed to happen, I could argue that licences should be transferable as well: "My wife could not make this hunt, so I'm here to cut her tag for her".

I also believe in the reduced odds so everyone has a better chance at "having a turn".

[Elkhound]

Thanks again for the responses.

Brno375 is correct I think. Too many families will have people with licences never intending to ever use them (grandma/grandpa, wives etc.....)

[steel_ram]

How do hunter numbers go up when the "hunters" in your family put in, never having the intention of going, but only to transfer the tag to you if they win?

People are going to abuse a system if they can. It shouldn't be up to the tag non-user to decide who gets it.

Perhaps in the useless box on the LEH cards that says if your willing to accept an alternate hunt in the same region, it could say "are you willing to be put on 'stand-by' in case a authorization becomes available", due to default.

[Mr. Dean]

My wife, her grandfather, and uncle all have hunter numbers but they have not bought a licence in years. I get them to put in for Kamloops Lake as well in hopes that they win and transfer the allocation to me.

I understand what your getting at. But all of this could be addressed to curtail the people that aren't in it w/ good intentions.

For my own reasons stated ealier, I have no interest in participating in a draw/lottery that I can't get nothing out of. Tossing the tag back in the barrel would still leave me out in the cold (unless no one else in the circle could use it). Why should I bother?

If the system came around to my way of thinking, I would buy $100 worth of draws easy, each season, instead of the $10 that I spend now. Again, I know many folks that would jump on the LEH band-waggon, if SOMEHOW getting a draw would benifit them.

[BlacktailStalker]

I'll tell you something about draws. A huge part is where you reside and where you apply for your draw. A HUGE majority of draw winners live far away from where they want to hunt. Why? Because it costs a lot more for Joe from Cranbrook to come here and hunt Roosevelt elk than it does for me, who lives right here. I know triple the number of successful applicants who live off Island who have drawn elk here than residents on the island. Yet, we ALWAYS get moose draws and run into numerous locals where we go who get drawn far less often.
If you think about it, its just another scam for the government bringing more money into the system that we havent, dont and wont ever see.

[Gun Dog]

My wife, her grandfather, and uncle all have hunter numbers but they have not bought a licence in years. I get them to put in for Kamloops Lake as well in hopes that they win and transfer the allocation to me. Since when can you transfer an LEH? If the person with the LEH isn't around then the LEH is no good. I've met people who put in for the wife and kids but at least they're on the hunt even if they don't pull the trigger.

I don't mind the current one hunter, one species application. Anything else is too easy to abuse or too hard to enforce.

It would be interesting if the Ministry auctioned some of the tags ebay style. So if you really wanted an allocation somewhere you could buy it. Limited to BC residents for their own use of course.

[Krico]

I'll tell you something about draws. A huge part is where you reside and where you apply for your draw. A HUGE majority of draw winners live far away from where they want to hunt. Why? Because it costs a lot more for Joe from Cranbrook to come here and hunt Roosevelt elk than it does for me, who lives right here. I know triple the number of successful applicants who live off Island who have drawn elk here than residents on the island. Yet, we ALWAYS get moose draws and run into numerous locals where we go who get drawn far less often.
If you think about it, its just another scam for the government bringing more money into the system that we havent, dont and wont ever see.

That's quite the conspiracy theory, I don't think you could prove that in any way nor do I believe it to be true.

[oscar makonka]

In Mr deans scenario the only party that wins is the gov't. If everyone buys 6 applications instead of one then the odds don't change it just costs 6 times as much if you want to keep up even odds with everyone else. Hell of a smart manipulation by the gov't to increase its revenue by 600% and still not give any more draws. Thinking the money goes into general revenue so your not likely helping wildlife either. Sets up a scenario where the people with the most money have the highest odds. As usual the little guy always gets screwed.

Draws are given out based on success rate percentages. i.e they give out 100 moose draws in an area knowing 30% of successful applicants won't end up going and of those who do maybe 50% will be successful. If all those draws went to those who party hunt and transfer draws to others the success rate would undoubtably increase substantially and an overharvest could occur resulting in less draws given out the next year since the individual drawn tag harvest success rate has now been increased due to those draws ending up all being used at a higher success rate . ie they now only have to give out 70 draws to achieve the management goal of lets say a 50 moose harvest in a particular WMU. Just because they give out 100 draws does not mean they want to harvest 100 animals, they already have figured success rate, and tag drop outs into the equation.

All this would succeed in doing is decrease the numbers of draws given and increase applications, nobody but the gov't wins.

[BlacktailStalker]

Krico; I know guys who have changed their addresses and recieved draws. I know a guy who has drawn Island elk 2 of 3 years, and another who was drawn 2 of 4 years.
Coincidence ? Maybe. Reality is, we'll never know. I won't change my address to find out but I do know a guy who did, just for this reason. I am confident my time will come. Plus my girlfriend just completed her PAL and CORE so maybe I'll be fortunate to take her on one as there is the rumoured succes rate being higher as a first time applicant.
Whatever gives you hope right ? :)
Good luck on the draws.

[Krico]

Coincidence, luck of the draw, whatever you want to call it...I know guys who have luck all the time, others who never seem to get anything. If something gives you hope, then great!-Go with it. I hunt with a guy who's got his supersticious routine, so I know all about it. I just can't for a minute believe the government has a secret agenda to keep tags away from locals.

[SUAFOYT]

I'll tell you something about draws. A huge part is where you reside and where you apply for your draw. A HUGE majority of draw winners live far away from where they want to hunt. Why? Because it costs a lot more for Joe from Cranbrook to come here and hunt Roosevelt elk than it does for me, who lives right here. I know triple the number of successful applicants who live off Island who have drawn elk here than residents on the island. Yet, we ALWAYS get moose draws and run into numerous locals where we go who get drawn far less often.
If you think about it, its just another scam for the government bringing more money into the system that we havent, dont and wont ever see.

You keep spewing this nonsense. I hate to burst your bubble, but again, I'll go slow for you, from 2002, LEH for Elk in Region 1. LEH holders for elk tags in Region 1 by region of RESIDENCE. Region 1, 69% of the total LEH for elk in Region 1. The next highest region of residence for elk in Region 1 is 22% by residents from Region 2. 3X22 is 66% of the total. Still less than the tags for residents of Region 1. Is this the new math or what? Stop with the misinformation already.

[quadrakid]

if anyone wants to see the info on the breakdown of leh authorizations just go to the bc govt site,the part that deals with hunting etc , download the harvest stats and you will get lots of info.

[Will]

It's all a Big Fat Concpiracy.........designed to ensure I never draw a decent Tag :|
:lol:

[Gateholio]

It is a conspiracy....I suggest that everyone protest by not buying LEH applications. Tell all your buddies, too...


8-) 8-)

[Mr. Dean]

...If all those draws went to those who party hunt and transfer draws to others the success rate would undoubtably increase substantially and an overharvest could occur resulting in less draws given out the next year since the individual drawn tag harvest success rate has now been increased due to those draws ending up all being used at a higher success rate...

Same thing could be said if the tags just got tossed back into the barrel for Tom, Dick and/or Harry.

Wouldn't the RH's get an increase in allocations, from the Outfitter industry because we're meeting the set allocation and a demand has been demonstrated?

Having an influx of $$ in the system is a bad thing? I was under the impression the the monies went back to supporting wildlife and/or the enviourment (?).

This incentive should also help in getting new hunters involved (increase hunting #'s). Is this a bad thing also?

So far, I haven't seen any other scenerio that would get me participating in the LEH. The way it's structured, it's impossible for me to do so. The confinements alienate many hunters from it.

[Allen50]

well it seams to be a joke at times, some people get 2 or 3 draws, and some never get any. some put in for a place they never intend to go to, and get a draw, and when i put in for it wanting to go there, i can not get a draw for love nor money, i believe if you get a draw, you should have to buy the tags before you can clame your draw, that way if you don't want to go there you won't put in for that spot knowing you have to buy the tag eve if you don't go. i had one draw in 2002 for cow elk in gold river area on the island, and it was in dec, and yes my brother and I did go, and we did get the cow, it weighted out 575 lbs on the rail, after all the years of giving out the Money, yes i got the draw, some hunters say oh!! its only a cow, well its meat and was oh so good, a bull would have been nice, but you have to take it when you can,,
yea i believe the system is a conspiracy at time when someone get draws year after year and never go on those hunts, the system is not fair, it should be changed somehow to make it so we all can get a chance to get that draw, since i had my elk draw on the island i now do not put in for it, i try for the big bull moose, and one day soon i'll get it i know, hopefull before i'm to old to get out hunting, and way if we all complain enough to the right Gov, maybe it will change to something fair, wait what am i thinking, are Gov, fair to the people, ha ha ha ha ha ha .......

[Phil]

Does any one know how the LEH entries are selected once pooled together? Is it a hand grab out of a barrel or a random computer selection? I have heard so many complaints regarding the selection process over the the years that I have a hard time believing that either process is used. It seeems to me that someone is selecting the winners with some sort of predetermined agenda in mind. Applicants seem to need to fofill some sort of criteria to gaurantee a harvest quota. Maybee it's just the Crown Royal talking because I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. I won two LEH last year and filled 50% of my alotted harvest. Lets see what I win this year.

[brno375]

i believe if you get a draw, you should have to buy the tags before you can clame your draw, that way if you don't want to go there you won't put in for that spot knowing you have to buy the tag eve if you don't go.

Sounds fair to me. I would also suggest that a licence must be bought prior to applying.

[Gateholio]

Ask the LEH questions on the "LEH Q&A thread

All will be revealed. :)

[Mr. Dean]

I would also suggest that a licence must be bought prior to applying.

BINGO!!!!!

[Maxx]

BINGO!!!!!

how about taking that a step further,

1) before applying you must by a hunting liscence,

2) in addition, For coveted species like Bison, grizzly and sheep, you also have to buy the tag for that animal before the draw( this would "help" to offset the cost of less people applying as compared to the current system)

this way, the odd's for people who are serious to go into these remote area's gets better, and potentially the governement revenue stay's "the same",

I know that this would never happen, but I think it should. For these 3 species, it is usually for "serious" people, not meat hunters. So, leave the meat hunters be with the "regular" system for moose,deer etc,

Use grizzly for an example, most people want 1 good one in their lifetime. If you had to buy the liscence and tag the year that you had time to go, but this also meant that the draw odd's were better, is this not more atractive?

[Mr. Dean]

2) in addition, For coveted species like Bison, grizzly and sheep, you also have to buy the tag for that animal before the draw( this would "help" to offset the cost of less people applying as compared to the current system)

Pre buying a tag for a hunt you likely won't do? that could be a tough sell...

I'm all in on having a license to gain privelege to an entry app.

[Caveman]

I have a suggestion. Instead of transferring draws and loading up among groups as discussed. I would propose getting rid of the one LEH application per species. Make it one draw for species per management region, or unit. If you want to put in for ten draws, so be it but when your number comes up, the rest of you applications become void. This could go for all species which would not only raise funds for habitat etc, but should increase your odds or at least have them in your control somewhat. If you choose not to put in for more than one, you can see your odds, if you put in for several your chances will increase because your eggs are not all in one basket which keeps the guy with one draw in not being screwed because he knew going in what the odds were. So the guy that put in for ten draws may get drawn for one of his hunts, the rest go void so the odds in the others get better for the guy that puts in for one because of the successful ones drawn elsewhere are no longer in for that draw. I think it could be a WIN WIN for all.

Selling or tranferring draws should never be an option to prevent scalpers from getting hunter #'s and selling tags for profit.

[TPK]

Selling or tranferring draws should never be an option to prevent scalpers from getting hunter #'s and selling tags for profit.

I agree with you there, and having read your suggestion a couple of times and thought about it, ... I think it's a great idea.

[steel_ram]

If you allow more than one draw per species, then it becomes a game where people with more disposable income can buy better odds. It's no longer an equal opportunity game.

Transfering of tags should not be at the person who surrenders their opportunities control. It should go down to the next unsuccessful applicant down the line if they will use it.

I also don't see the need for one household to take multiple "Large" big game species. Four ravenous teenagers or not, our shared wildlife is not hunted for sustenance (really) or for giving away to neighbors. Lets spread the tags around. I've seen too many greedy's taking everything they can, not because they need it.

[Maxx]

Pre buying a tag for a hunt you likely won't do? that could be a tough sell...

I'm all in on having a license to gain privelege to an entry app.


That is part of my point, the odd's will be much more in your favour when the year comes that you choose to apply. I do agree, it is a tough sell, but in my eyes would work for sheep, Bison and Grizz,

[Caveman]

Posted by steel_ram
If you allow more than one draw per species, then it becomes a game where people with more disposable income can buy better odds. It's no longer an equal opportunity game.
Let's do a little exercise. Ten draws each with 100 people putting in. The odds are 100:1. Two people put in for all the draws, their odds are 100:1 in ten draws, but they have ten chances to win. They both get drawn so their names get pulled for every other draw. Now the guy that put in only one entry has odds of 98:1, increasing their chances of being successful. If you limit the LEH entries as one per Management region, those people putting in for multiple draws would likely be traveling that would also bring income to other communities. I don't disagree that the guy with more disposable cash would increase his odds but inadvertently could help the guy that puts in one as well, because regardless where these two guys put in the odds in that draw would be 100:1 anyways. Not alot different that 6-49 but you couldn't win ten times based on you number combinations, you would be limited to one win. You could be required to put your draws in order of choice which would also have an effect on what the out come would be for others

[6616]

Maybe in some cases we should be pushing for less LEH and more GOS. This would remove the inadequacies that we must put up with in the LEH system and also remove these hunts from the allocation process.

How many LEH hunts do you think there are there in BC that could be on GOS. There are many MUs with limited access or access restrictions, and there ane many LEH hunts that are under-subscribed. Why not just revert back to GOS in these cases.

Examples would be moose in 4-40, or the many goat hunts in Region 4 where restrictive access management is layered on top of LEH. Many of these goat hunts are under-subscribed to and possibly it's because many hunters simply do not want to deal with the access restrictions.

Our whole management regime may be too conservative..??? What do you think?

[brno375]

I'm all for a switch to GOS from LEH whenever possible.

[Maxx]

I'm all for a switch to GOS from LEH whenever possible.


Agreed, but when it comes to Grizzlies, politically this would never happen. The Sheep LEH's won't change either,

I agree that for moose, deer and elk, there are for sure some area's that should go back to GOS,

[GoatGuy]

Im for leaving the LEH hunts the way they are dont change to GOS but the LEH system should be changed to ways similar to the states where the money is up front or to the point system like alberta.

Read through the LEH thread stickied at the top of the page.

[6616]

I agee Maxx, there are many hunts that will never be LEH, gizzlies included for political reasons, but I believe a review of LEH hunts is required along with a review of the entire LEH system and a move towards an "Alberta like" priority points type system.

I believe some of the West Kootenay elk areas, some of the East Kootenay goat hunts, moose hunts in several regions, etc, could be on GOS.

Lack of MOE budgets to update wildlife population inventories has resulted in a conservative management approach in recent years, "err on the side of safety". We need this inventory data before we can consider removing LEH and I believe we should be pressing for it.

Same goes for a bunch of restrictive antler point regulations, 1 in 3 bag limits, and access restrictions, it's no wonder we're losing resident hunter numbers.
Examples are: Why are bull elk still on a 6 pt horn restriction in the Cranbrook area where there is now so many elk they're eating ranchers out of house and home, why is there a 1 in 3 year resident hunter bag limit for Stone's sheep in Region 7B when residents are harvesting less than half of the AAH? There are too many "messy" and unnecessary restrictive regulations in place!