Canoes

[BCHoyt]

Anyone have an advice on canoes? Something for 5 day trips including portaging for 2 people, dog, and gear (2 packs and fishing stuff)

[Smiley]

for portaging go LIGHTWEIGHT
have a look at Hellman made in Nelson, much lighter than Clippers
16' will do you if you pack small

[Tuffcity]

Clipper tripper in kevlar. Have one and its awesome, its light enough that I can pick it up and load it on the truck roof racks by myself- think its around 40-ish pounds for 17'+ canoe.

RC

[mooze]

also Clipper, but Hellman's are very nice boats, just never had one.

Clipper tripper is a good lake, big water boat, easy whitewater (to 2+, depending on your skill set) is ok.
If you need a quicker turning model a prospector is never wrong, just long lake trips are less fun, no keel, harder to keep straight.

If you want to go really lightweight and fast go with a whitewater 2, kevlar. Still OK for Bowron lakes and similar.

[Brno22F]

for portaging go LIGHTWEIGHT
have a look at Hellman made in Nelson, much lighter than Clippers
16' will do you if you pack small

I have paddled both a 16 ft Hellman and a 17 ft Clipper. The 16 ft Hellman I found to be tippy. Nice boat. Light for portage. Hellman does make a 17 foot model and it may be a bit more stable.
I would recommend you look closely at a 17 ft Clipper. Having paddled one, I can say that they are more stable than a 16 ft Hellman. It will carry more gear and if you splurge for the Kevlar model, it will be reasonably light for portage.

[444marlin]

Another good make.
https://www.wenonah.com/

[BTF]

I have an old town canoe, got it for a good deal and it was like new. Beat it up a fair bit. Flipped it with the wife and dog once, watched it roll along the river bottom a couple of times before it popped back up. It has a bit of flotation in it so that helps, seems fairly durable as well. no keel on it which is good for the rivers but not so good on the lakes when the wind picks up. Fairly light, if I remember correct it's around 50lbs.

[BCHoyt]

Ya here it will be mostly used on Lakes... not too much for river trips..

[RoscoeP]

Clipper Tripper

[Tuffcity]

BCHoyt,

If you want to have a look at mine or maybe take it for a spin on Elk Lake feel free to give me a shout- I'm in North Saanich.

RC

[BCHoyt]

Thanks for the offer Tuff though I dont know if the Clipper's are quite in our price range.. Though super nice canoes..

[Tīɡ]

Coleman canoes are heavy but steady and practically indestructible. Used my uncles many times and have lots of experience with them. I personally have an 20+yr old Sawyer that is fiberglass and not very heavy, glides amazing! But the steadiness leaves something to be desired. Just my 2 cents.

[Big Lew]

For what you're planning, the Coleman canoe will do the job. Just be careful not to try traveling in rough
water or high winds. There are many secondhand Coleman canoes for sale that are in very good shape.
I suspect it's because many, like you, would like to try a canoe trip, found it not to their liking,
or because it is an entry level boat, so have moved up to the better and more specialized craft.

[Tuffcity]

BCHoyt: the clippers will spoil you. :) Keep an eye on usedvic or the up-Island usedwhere-evers. A friend of mine got a kickin' deal on a used tripper a couple of years ago.

Offer stands if you ever change your mind.

RC

[Skillet]

I too can recommend the Clippers. I have a 16' ranger, have had it for years and it paddles very nice and it is very stable and tough too. It will haul me, my wife and two kids no problem but if I was to do it again I'd go with the tripper just for a bit more weight hauling.
thing about canoes is the better ones paddle with way less effort, and when your are going into the wind for long stretches it makes a big difference!
Keep your eye on Used Vic etc and one might pop up

[Robin]

I have a Nova Craft Trapper, it's far to small(12') for what you need but,these are top quality canoes, they can be very, very lite or medium weight. As the above reply says, the better they are, the better they paddle. For me I like a lite boat, I'm handicapped so weight is a huge thing for me but a well made medium weight boat on a windy lake will save you tons of frustration and energy. Check the free board and bow, if a canoe is to high or has a very high bow then you could be at the mercy of the wind. That same canoe though may be more advantageous on a rough bit of water and you may be able to pack a few luxury items to make your trip more fun. Also a narrow canoe and dogs are not a good mix, for you I think wider is better. Try before you buy, boats that have been stored in a hap hazard sort of way may paddle weird so if you find a used one do your due diligance before you buy. One last thing are paddles, just because they come with the boat don't mean they'll work for you, too short or too long just means a sore back and extra muscle. Good luck.

[Ron.C]

x3 on clipper tripper.

We used them as well on the Bowron Lakes. Took our time and were geared for 7 nights Worked great. No problems.

[BCHoyt]

Tuff I might actually take you up on the offer in the spring...

[Salty]

I've got a 16 foot Clipper prospector which is a clone of the old Canadian prospector design from back east. Its made for rivers cause.. duh, that's how they travelled way back then. Its got a lot of rocker and flaired sides so its up for some pretty serious white water to a point of course. And they pack a shit load of weight I don't think too many 16 footers really compare. But with all boats where you gain something you loose something it sucks on a big lake in the wind. No keel at all and not a nice straight bottom to track so you're all over the place. Doable with two but not great at all with one.

[Big Lew]

" No keel at all and not a nice straight bottom to track so you're all over the place."

I agree. I have a Clipper with no keel that's built for speed and reasonably rough white
water. It also is frustrating to track, especially if there's a cross wind. Had I known
just how difficult it would be to track, I would have purchased one with a keel as I do
quite a bit of tracking. The only way I can get it to track reasonably well is to load it down.

[Salty]

Yup loading them helps. I've paddled mine with a kayak paddle too on the chuck here its a little better in breeze and I have a goofy idea of having a removable little skeg like you see hanging off the back of kayaks I wouldn't worry about foot pedals to steer just a straight bit of aluminum plate shaped like a kayak skeg. I'm pretty sure it would work really well in the wind. I've done some sea kayaking and they don't have a keel either but with the little skeg way back and you paddling forward a ways it holds its line well. If I ever get to it I'd want something easy to take on and off just a little V shaped frame that fit snug and then just lash it down or something.

[Cordillera]

If you want to go in a straight line on a lake it's easier to get some paddling lessons and learn the correction strokes than it is to paddle a tugboat with a keel. Lots or prospector type boats have no keel and even a little rocker and are easy to paddle in a straight line once you get the hang of it. If you are truly in lakes only then something like a tripper with a very slight rocker and no keel is best. But I'd recommend against ever paddling any canoe sold with a keel. The only exception is some old aluminum or canvass boats as they are otherwise pretty cool!

Also pay attention to the material. Some of the poly boats like Colemans are very flexible and therefore terribly slow. A fibreglass canoe will be stiffer and therefore faster. Our royalex boat is probably 30% slower than our kevlar boat, and that royalex boat will still beat a Coleman by a mile.

I picked up a used hellman prospector for about a thousand, and sometimes deals like that give you a great and light boat for a fair deal.

[Big Lew]

I respectively have to disagree about keeled canoes. I have used them for
many years. The keel-less canoes are definitely easier and more maneuverable
to use, especially in rivers etc, but unless you're running white water, keeled canoes
work reasonably well, and as I earlier mentioned, that keel makes them very easy
to track. With my keeled canoes I could easily run the boat out 20 plus feet when
ascending or descending a river, allowing me to avoid rocks and other obstacles.
I was even able to have the canoe climb small water ledges and very fast water
with ease even if the canoe was loaded. Can't do that with my current keel-less clipper.
It sure is frustrating and a good way to lose your temper and call Mother Nature
some nasty names when you get a bit too far off center and find yourself suddenly
facing the other way, lol!

[Salty]

tug boat like with a keel? LOL No. Resistance increases directly by the amount of wetted surface area a keel on a canoe is going to add a few percent to that they only jut into the water a half inch or so and not even for the full length of the boat. And a kayak skeg is even less wetted surface area. As far as getting the hang of steering a canoe with no keel in a stiff angled head wind or cross wind there's only so much to get the hang of its going to be a constant battle and very inefficient.

[Big Lew]

tug boat like with a keel? LOL No. Resistance increases directly by the amount of wetted surface area a keel on a canoe is going to add a few percent to that they only jut into the water a half inch or so and not even for the full length of the boat. And a kayak skeg is even less wetted surface area. As far as getting the hang of steering a canoe with no keel in a stiff angled head wind or cross wind there's only so much to get the hang of its going to be a constant battle and very inefficient.

Sure do agree! I've done a lot of big lake canoeing, including with a closed canoe, and sure would
rather have a keel in high windy conditions, especially when paddling solo. When going into a strong
headwind, it's a strenuous battle even with a keel. I sure wouldn't look forward to doing it solo with
my current keel-less clipper.

[speycaster]

I grew up in canvas covered cedar canoes, never had one that had a keel. In the 40s and 50s very few canoes had a keel, so you learned how to paddle a keelless canoe in a straight line no matter the wind conditions. For river work a keel was a hinderance to maneuvering quickly. After 68 years of canoeing, I still see no reason for a keel. I still have a 17 foot Chestnut Cronje to use when I want to. Bought in 1968 from Dinty Moore AKA Moore Sales.

[Big Lew]

Please don't misunderstand me. I agree that a keel-less canoe is more maneuverable and far more so
in rough, fast water, or in tight quarters like narrow sloughs etc. I have absolutely no problem paddling
a keel-less canoe in a straight line no matter the various conditions. My current Clipper without a keel
is an absolute joy to paddle and is much faster then the old fiberglass keeled Frontiersman canoes I've
had in the past. What I am saying though, is a keeled canoe will hold a line in open windy waters better
and will track far better.

[Salty]

I grew up in canvas covered cedar canoes, never had one that had a keel. In the 40s and 50s very few canoes had a keel, so you learned how to paddle a keelless canoe in a straight line no matter the wind conditions. .

No matter the wind conditions eh? I guess you're a better paddler than me.

[Cordillera]

I agree a keel will make you track better. Just plain physics. However if you look at the canoes sold on the market any I have seen that have a keel are otherwise tugboats. Usually made of poly (dead slow) and have lines that make them very slow and awkward. Often they have a square stern, which is a sign you need a motor to move them. If you can find a used canoe with good lines, in a proper stiff layup (fibreglass with good ribs, or kevlar, duralite, etc) that also has a keel, then it may be a Great Lake boat. The older aluminum canoes often had keels as part of the manufacturing process and are great. But boats like that are rare.

any serious tripping boat, designed for lakes, and designed for speed, will not have a keel. It isn't needed. My true lake boat was a bluewater freedom in kevlar. Almost eighteen feet, 1 inch of rocker, assymetric design for better entry, and around 52 pounds. That thing was lightning and tracked across lakes wonderfully.


If someone can show me a modern canoe, designed to be quick, that has a keel, I'll show ten tripping boats without a keel.

Just saw a tripper in kevlar on mec gear swap for 900. That will be faster and easier to portage than the fibreglass version. Good price for that boat.

[Big Lew]

It seems some responders think differently then me about the term I've been using...'tracking'.
" If the shoreline was reasonably clear the canoe could be 'tracked' or 'lined', that is, the canoemen would pull the canoe on a rope while one man stayed on board to keep it away from the shore. (The most extreme case of tracking was in the Three Gorges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges) in China where all boats had to be pulled upstream against the current of the Yangtze River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River).) " Describing how well a canoe tracks is different, it means how well it will keep a straight
line or course.
When I mention 'tracking', I mean lining a canoe up or down a river with cord while I'm walking along the
shoreline. I have done this many times, both with loaded and unloaded canoes. A keel is a definite advantage,
especially when sending the canoe far out to go around obstacles. Hope this clears up any possible
misunderstanding.

[Cordillera]

Thanks for that. Tracking is a lost art. If you ever read any books by Patterson you gain a true understanding of how it works. Go upstream while the river is in flood... I struggle to track a canoe that well!

[argyle1]

thanks for the clarification Lew, as I too thought you meant "tracking" to be how it tracked paddling on still water. What you refer to as "tracking" is more often called "lining" by canoeists (and is usually done with two lines, a shorter one to hold the stern in close and a longer one to let the bow out a bit so that it will "ferry" out away from the bank), and that was where the confusion came from in this thread

[Big Lew]

Thanks for that. Tracking is a lost art. If you ever read any books by Patterson you gain a true understanding of how it works. Go upstream while the river is in flood... I struggle to track a canoe that well!

I have all of Patterson's books, as well as others of that era when canoeing was an important mode
of travel. As I earlier mentioned, I've enjoyed canoeing, which includes 'lining' in some crazy water.
I have experimented with 'poling', but really never became comfortable with it, possibly because I'm
too worried about flipping over. (When you're young you think you're invincible...as you get old
you know you're not, lol!) Paddling a 'closed canoe' on a lake in high winds and big waves is a real
adrenalin rush, especially when waves break over your bow and hit you in the face. I now, and have
for some time, use a homemade portable outrigger for fishing or traveling in 'balance challenging'
situations because of my 'movement restricting' arthritis. Sure doesn't stop me from canoeing though.