BC RESIDENTS that are GOABC GUIDES

[guest]

You need to ask yourself.

What is My employer doing for me and my family ?
Do I belong to a credible pension plan ?
Do I provide enough for me and my entire family working for the Owner of the Territory?
Do I receive benefits in the form of Extended Health, Dental, Medical Insurance for me and my family ? If so what if some thing happens to me in regards to Health or a Accident ?
Do I think my kids and future grand kids will have fair and equitable opportunity in regards to hunting in the future?
What will I do should the Economy turn and I can't make ends meet ?
Am I compensated fairly given the Dollars my Boss or owner is making ? Maybe I could sell the guns, knives, bino's and boots that my Happy Clients have given me?

Can ANY BC RESIDENT THAT IS ALSO A GUIDE SAY that the Present Allocation Agreed by the Government and GOABC is GOOD for the Resident HUNTER ?

Having worked in the Guiding industry I personally can answer NO to almost every Question above.
I found out the hard way I was busting my balls for the owners and companies that CASHED IN off the backs of us guides.
I found out that YES I could see area's I could never afford to access myself, and when I was young it was great. I quickly found out I was no SMOOZER breaking my back for Non residents. There is NO future as a HIRED GUIDE, only the owners or Partners that RIDE high in the Saddle off your BACK !

Wake up ! These decisions are NO GOOD for you as a resident hunter, guide or not.

I ask for the GOABC to go Back to the Table with the Liberal Government and Hunters around BC to find a Reasonable, Respectful Decision for ALL Parties INVOLVED.

In SOLIDARITY for BC RESIDENTS and HUNTERS

Stay Strong, Stay Together !

CT

[Salty]

Another thing I'd add to that CT is if by chance any Outfitters in BC succeeded from (quit) GOABC I'd do the opposite of boycotting them. Ditto to what you've said in most of these outfitters taking advantage of young hunting enthusiasts and luring them in to underpaid and undervalued very hard work with the title 'guide'. They're expected to live off of tips essentially.

[guest]

Taking advantage to say the least

Heard this Before " Tell ya what Kid, Bust your Balls for me for 5 seasons and I'll let cha take your own Ram ........ If you really go over the top Maybe 3 Seasons "

sound familiar to some of you ?

Very Under compensated, under appreciated by the Rich that get Richer at the Top of the Saddle.

CT

[boxhitch]

Sounds like you were dealt a raw deal , and hold some resentment . No need to down play what is a great work experience , for anybody.
The doors swing both ways and the trail runs north and south , and usually anyone going in to the job should have no surprises if they do their homework .
So anyone going in as a assistant guide or a wrangler or a cook or a camp jack is doing so of their own free will .
How is that 'taking advantage' ?
Just like hunting , its not all about what you put into the freezer or your pocket . Its far more than just a job. If it is nothing more and you don't like the job or hold a grudge against the G/O , its time to move on .

[Salty]

So you're saying they should be content to work for nothing boxhitch? There's a difference between hunting on your own time to investing several months of time with no other income as a young assistant guide or guide. Meanwhile their employer's association is wining dining and funding the government to get more quota that adds 100s of thousands of dollars to the value of the business. I think this is a good time for a thread like this for those thinking about getting in to the business to consider what they're getting in to.

[bigwhiteys]

So you're saying they should be content to work for nothing boxhitch? There's a difference between hunting on your own time to investing several months of time with no other income as a young assistant guide or guide.

WTF? People across all walks of life do this everyday in BC. If a guy is content making minimum wage flipping burgers or content making a bit more out in the mountains doing hard work and something he/she enjoys....... If another guy wants to own the business and wine and dine to further his business good for him/her too. THAT IS BUSINESS!!!!! You've all become the judge and jury on much more than you should be.

[boxhitch]

Getting an expense paid 3 month holiday in the mountains can be in itself enough for some . It may involve a little or a lot of sweat , and a few bug bites and usually some trouble that can be labelled as ' character building ' , but the work ethic usually is pretty strong in those applying so no real hardship , nothing that will last forever anyways :)
So even at $50 a day take-home , at the end that could be 4-5 k$ in a lump , plus whatever bonuses or tips or swag .
Not many local boys are taking it up , there are more and more foreigners coming for a good time .

[Salty]

OK boxhitch I'll put you down for pro minimum wage. lol. No one's telling anyone how to think just putting out facts they can decide for themselves.

[Salty]

Foreign guides are the norm now eh? Missed that first time, glad our stolen resident hunter allocation is at least creating jobs :roll:

[boxhitch]

Can't comment on any percentage or total numbers , but have seen more in recent years . The Kiwis love it here , and are good workers and good hunters

[butcher]

Yep, had the same experience. Less residents willing to work for bugger all when there are oil patch or mining jobs available. More kiwis looking for an adventure coming to guide and happy to be paid bugger all. Kinda like migrant farm workers.

good thing the oil and gas industry doesn't exploit workers for profit.

[Sitkaspruce]

The GO I worked for paid me well for the work, rented my quad off me when I needed it, let me look after the whole program for the area I worked in and treated me very fair. If I did not get a tip or got short changed on a tip (only happened twice....but that is is for another story), he covered my tip. He also gave me bonuses at the end of the season, covered my Ass. Guide Lic fee and there was a multiple of other great things about working for him.

The best part is that he knew I hunted in the same area as I guided in and he gave me the cabin and equipment to use when ever I wanted them.

I was a guide for the adventure and experience, not for the pay or pension plan. If you are looking to make lots of money, try the patch.....if you are looking to have fun and meet some interesting people, plus get to do something you love, then guiding can be a lot of fun.

Not all GO are asshats.

Cheers

SS

[Drillbit]

We could all start applying for jobs and them leave them hanging.
Or buy a tag, land the job, and tag out and quit.



I'm just going to take the boys from the rez hunting in the guides areas that I know.

[d6dan]

Not all GO are asshats.

Cheers

SS

I worked for one years ago and treated me great and was good to Resident hunters, but that was in the 70's.

[Sofa King]

oh look, something new, a GOABC thread.
how original.

who are you to tell someone where they should work or who they should work for?
much more important than money is doing something you enjoy.
and there's no shortage of jobs where you are busting your balls for your ungrateful boss.
you found out the hard way that you were busting your balls for your boss?? and that they were cashing in off of your work????
well, you weren't working for yourself.
what on earth did you think was happening??
that's how employment works.
no future as a hired guide?
maybe there wasn't for you, but I think some will disagree with you.
and besides, many people these days are doing whatever jobs they are doing simply to pay the bills.
lots of people these days don't have the luxury of dreaming of the future.
do you have better employment to offer those that you are advising to stop guiding?

[butcher]

I was a guide for the adventure and experience, not for the pay or pension plan. If you are looking to make lots of money, try the patch.....if you are looking to have fun and meet some interesting people, plus get to do something you love, then guiding can be a lot of fun.

Not all GO are asshats.

Cheers

SS[/QUOTE]

yep, if you are looking to become rich by guiding (same as working for anybody) you are in for a disappointment. I'm glad I did it, especially the stuff in the NWT but am not interested in doing it again.

Having said that I would go to work for a GO tomorrow instead of a sawmill or the oil patch. Luckily I have to do none of the above.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Foreign guides are the norm now eh? Missed that first time, glad our stolen resident hunter allocation is at least creating jobs :roll:

YEA and again for FOREIGNers who will work for near nothing :icon_frow just to be here ! :evil: RJ

[Ramshot]

The GO I worked for paid me well for the work, rented my quad off me when I needed it, let me look after the whole program for the area I worked in and treated me very fair. If I did not get a tip or got short changed on a tip (only happened twice....but that is is for another story), he covered my tip. He also gave me bonuses at the end of the season, covered my Ass. Guide Lic fee and there was a multiple of other great things about working for him.

The best part is that he knew I hunted in the same area as I guided in and he gave me the cabin and equipment to use when ever I wanted them.

I was a guide for the adventure and experience, not for the pay or pension plan. If you are looking to make lots of money, try the patch.....if you are looking to have fun and meet some interesting people, plus get to do something you love, then guiding can be a lot of fun.

Not all GO are asshats.

Cheers

SS

Same here! The outfit I guided for payed well and was a great guy. Always a "few" assholes in all groups with their hidden agenda's! Doesn't mean they are all bad.

[444 marlin]

WTF? People across all walks of life do this everyday in BC. If a guy is content making minimum wage flipping burgers or content making a bit more out in the mountains doing hard work and something he/she enjoys....... If another guy wants to own the business and wine and dine to further his business good for him/her too. THAT IS BUSINESS!!!!! You've all become the judge and jury on much more than you should be.
The difference I see here is the product they sell belongs to the BC public

[Ranger95]

The GO I worked for paid me well for the work, rented my quad off me when I needed it, let me look after the whole program for the area I worked in and treated me very fair. If I did not get a tip or got short changed on a tip (only happened twice....but that is is for another story), he covered my tip. He also gave me bonuses at the end of the season, covered my Ass. Guide Lic fee and there was a multiple of other great things about working for him.

The best part is that he knew I hunted in the same area as I guided in and he gave me the cabin and equipment to use when ever I wanted them.

I was a guide for the adventure and experience, not for the pay or pension plan. If you are looking to make lots of money, try the patch.....if you are looking to have fun and meet some interesting people, plus get to do something you love, then guiding can be a lot of fun.

Not all GO are asshats.

Cheers

SS


Great at post SS!

like others have said, if locals don't want the work or the adventure - there are plenty of Kiwis, Aussies and Brits that would jump at the opportunity.

I really can't see why this bitch fest is brewing!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

The difference I see here is the product they sell belongs to the BC public

Yes it does, but the nonresidents pay dearly for the opportunity to hunt here. They in fact are buying each animal from the BC public.

[Salty]

No. They're buying it from the GO who picks them up at the airport, takes their money and delivers them back to the airport in most cases.

[Ranger95]

Yes it does, but the nonresidents pay dearly for the opportunity to hunt here. They in fact are buying each animal from the BC public.


That at comment will fly right over most peoples heads on here.......

Merry Christmas hillbilly.....

[Ozone]

They in fact are buying each animal from the BC public.
The problem is, we don't want to sell, so in fact its being stolen from us.

[decker9]

All I can say, a waist of my time reading this, rolling eyes. I can't wait till guiding season!!! Best frikin job iv ever had! Good money and great tips, there's only been one or two hunts that the guiding cheque hasn't matched my millwright cheque, or close to it (mind you I only work as much as I have to) non the less, iv never gone hungry after a guiding season, and not to mention I get to meet some pretty unbelievable people. And the beauty country I get to explore!!, on someone else's dollar, and get paid for it!! can't beat that for a job can you?

X a bunch, not all guides are ass hats!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

It is interesting, I am looking at resident vs nonresident statistics in all of the comparable states. Without a doubt residents here have the greatest hunting opportunities in the world hands down. It is not even close.

How many of you have killed a wolf in the last 10 years, maybe if you got off your couch and went wolf hunting and wrote letters to your MLA's about controlling the over harvest of cows and wasted meat by the first nations there would be no LEH for moose anywhere in the province.

[guest]

Not a SINGLE one of you can say this decision is BEST FOR BC RESIDENTS OR OUR FUTURE, give your heads a shake, your a spit in the can compared to The owner and boss your kissin butt for. Yes I to got to see incredible areas I could never afford.
Once I realized it was nothing butt SUCKING UP TO BY YOUR BOSS AND OWNERS TOO BY THE PURCHASER OF SAID TRIP and had enough of being used, realized what it was doing ..... NOTHING MORE THEN A COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY....... NOT THE BEST THING FOR OUR future, for our kids for our grand kids, NOTHING BUT A BIG SELL OFF.
I GREW UP , GREW SOME BALLS AND SAID Enough !

Your only lookong kong after yourselves for now, not the future , and NONE of you admit it.

Greedy sons of - itches
WAKE UP THE SELL OFF OF YOUR BIG GAME AND OPPORTUNITY HAS ARRIVED.

a merry christmas to as to you all

[Alpine Addict]

Wages reflect experience/performance CT, maybe you didn't make good money but I have friends and myself including who can do very well each season. pissin' in the wind on this one.

[Piperdown]

Buddy guides for an outfitter out of the caribou/chilcoot $150 a day, he is guide, cook and baby sitter all in one. The only way he makes any money is the tip from rich clients. News is now the outfit is for sale as he has more quota and can sell for a profit.

[Gateholio]

Yes it does, but the nonresidents pay dearly for the opportunity to hunt here. They in fact are buying each animal from the BC public.

More correct would be they are buying it from the outfitter, with a small fee going to BC. The majority of the purchase price of a hunt does not go to BC, obviously.

[Avalanche123]

Not a SINGLE one of you can say this decision is BEST FOR BC RESIDENTS OR OUR FUTURE, give your heads a shake, your a spit in the can compared to The owner and boss your kissin butt for. Yes I to got to see incredible areas I could never afford.
Once I realized it was nothing butt SUCKING UP TO BY YOUR BOSS AND OWNERS TOO BY THE PURCHASER OF SAID TRIP and had enough of being used, realized what it was doing ..... NOTHING MORE THEN A COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY....... NOT THE BEST THING FOR OUR future, for our kids for our grand kids, NOTHING BUT A BIG SELL OFF.
I GREW UP , GREW SOME BALLS AND SAID Enough !

Your only lookong kong after yourselves for now, not the future , and NONE of you admit it.

Greedy sons of - itches
WAKE UP THE SELL OFF OF YOUR BIG GAME AND OPPORTUNITY HAS ARRIVED.

a merry christmas to as to you all

Wow do you ever jump to comclusions and make assumptions about folks you don't even know.

I follow this with interest as I've worked in the GO Industry for several years. As a few others have said, I never did it for the $$$$, met some incredible folks and made a few life time friends. I was always treated with respect by the GO's and never felt taken advantage of.

Yes I am fortunate I have another job that gives me all the other "perks" we enjoy (medical, dental, pension etc.) and it pays great. Sorry I don't feel threatened by the current allocation policy and not because I have my "head up the GO's ass". I don't roll that way. Is it good for BC residents? Time will tell but since I don't feel threatened by it, I don't put a whole lot of thought into it. Is it selfish? Perhaps but you won't see me pounding either a GOABC or BCWF drum either as I do what I do for reasons personal to me.
If I had kids, I'd encourage them to get an education and yes give guiding a try. Sounds like you didn't fair too well at your hand at guiding but please don't paint the whole industry with the same brush.
Finally, if I don't respond to the plethora of questions that you are probably gonna ask it's because I honestly have bigger fish to fry. I just thought I'd add my $0.02. Merry Xmas.

[Salty]

Sorry I don't feel threatened by the current allocation policy

Immediately I go from a mathematical good chance of a Roosevelt draw once in my life time to having to live to well over a hundred years to get those odds. That doesn't make you feel threatened? I guess you don't need to rely on resident hunter rules working for a guide to get the hunts you want but I really do hope you open your eyes and see the big picture some day soon. What is given up now will never come back. The government would have to buy this free gift to the GOABC. And, they won't stop here this is just a crack in the door. Have a nice Christmas.

[Sitkaspruce]

CT

You must have had real asshat or you were the problem........yes, there is asshats in all walks of life...I work for one now....

The GO I worked for would pay for me to travel from home to the area and back again, whether it was by plane or vehicle. I would go down to the shows in the US and he would pay for the whole trip, along with my wages as well.

He was a resident first and was never worried about other residents hunting.

However, he also had a real job and the guiding was just a hobby for him. And to me, that is one of the biggest problems with the current GO business. Too many have bought territories with the thought of making it their livelihood and when the realized they could not, they are now asking for MORE to share up their business.

Cheers

SS

[Whonnock Boy]

I understand where you are coming from CT. It's unfortunate that you had a poor experience with your employer, but I see what others are saying. They are not all the same. But, these guides trying to defend the industry, before the resident hunter is dumb founding. One day they will realize, when they are older, and wiser, that for their own personal gain, they sold out their fellow man and ancestors, for the benefit of a few including themselves. Pretty sad.....

[Ron.C]

WTF? People across all walks of life do this everyday in BC. If a guy is content making minimum wage flipping burgers or content making a bit more out in the mountains doing hard work and something he/she enjoys....... If another guy wants to own the business and wine and dine to further his business good for him/her too. THAT IS BUSINESS!!!!! You've all become the judge and jury on much more than you should be.

x2 Carl. I'm all for a fair dist of allocation for residents and one that supports the hunting industry in BC. But some of this is getting just as ridiculous as the crap the antis spew.

[Salty]

CT


The GO I worked for would pay for me to travel from home to the area and back again, whether it was by plane or vehicle. I would go down to the shows in the US and he would pay for the whole trip, along with my wages as well.

He was a resident first and was never worried about other residents hunting.

However, he also had a real job and the guiding was just a hobby for him. And to me, that is one of the biggest problems with the current GO business. Too many have bought territories with the thought of making it their livelihood and when the realized they could not, they are now asking for MORE to share up their business.

Cheers

SS

Ding ding ding ding ding....... nailed it Ken! When I was a little kid my dad was a guide for several years every fall. He also did other things through the year pipeline work etc to barely make ends meet. The GO he worked for was also a rancher, logger and raised horses in the off season. But now the GOABC has convinced the government that they need ensure that GOs make good money from their business soley, guiding about 1/4 of the year. And at the expense of people that actually fund the coffers, resident hunters of BC. Corporate welfare plain and simple.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Maybe if the residents put some effort in hunting wolves my allocation would still be 18 moose over 5 years instead of 6. Greedy outfitter I guess i am.

I spend Christmas eve decorating trees with cables snares and will head out to check bait stations today. Commitment to increasing wildlife is my priority which benefits the residents far more then my business. You can ask anyone that comes to my area if they see a little bit of effort can make a difference.

[Salty]

Good luck C H I hope your traps find their mark! Happy holidays and good trapping to you

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Unless you have targeted wolves as a primary prey you have done little to help ungulates so quit your whining. If everyone did their part including a pile of lazy outfitters (which I am surrounded by) this conversation never would have started and GOS would be the norm everywhere in the province.

I made the choice to buy an outfit and make a business out of it. This did not change the fact I am a resident hunter as are my wife and kids. Call me crazy but I even take resident hunters hunting, (what a shock.) I expect to be treated as i have treated them and hope they respect me enough not to spread the word where they hunted.
For the most part I believe people are honest and respectful which I why I take people for their word and will continue to in the future. Some of the comments on HBC has my theory in doubt, there are actually more resentful hunting assclowns in the world then I thought.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Good luck C H I hope your traps find their mark! Happy holidays and good trapping to you

Thanks Salty/
Same to you.

[Avalanche123]

I guess you don't need to rely on resident hunter rules working for a guide to get the hunts you want but I really do hope you open your eyes and see the big picture some day soon.

Salty....Even if I never guide another day in my life, I don't feel threatened. I personally feel I have ample opportunity. I get the hunts I want that has zero to do with the Outfitters I have worked for.
My eyes are wide open as I experience both sides of the fence.

Roosevelt Elk? Last I looked 6-13 has a two month GOS. Yep a tough hunt but there is opportunity. That said, I enjoy these tough hunts and have never relied on LEH for any critter. And that is why I just don't feel threatened.

[Salty]

The Roosevelt Elk are in my back yard not 16 hours of driving and a ferry ride away. As retirement gets nearer on the horizon I was looking forward to moose hunting again like I did growing up up north. That chance too just took a big hit. But ya know what even if this stolen allocation did not effect me personally I would still fight it tooth and nail to support those that it did. I guess you don't think that way. At least you don't beat around the bush and try to sell shit like some here I guess. But I don't respect your decision on this and nothing will change that.

[Avalanche123]

The Roosevelt Elk are in my back yard not 16 hours of driving and a ferry ride away. As retirement gets nearer on the horizon I was looking forward to moose hunting again like I did growing up up north. That chance too just took a big hit. But ya know what even if this stolen allocation did not effect me personally I would still fight it tooth and nail to support those that it did. I guess you don't think that way. At least you don't beat around the bush and try to sell shit like some here I guess. But I don't respect your decision on this and nothing will change that.

Fair enough. 7B has opportunity too.

I respect your opinion even though I don't know you. The decision you make is up to you.

If you don't respect what I have to say, then why bother ask? I suspect we are of similar age, we both like to hunt and probably have more in common than we probably know.

The biggest crime IMHO is this issue (yes Gov't created....) is it now pits BC Resident Hunter against BC Resident Hunter....whether ProGOABC or ProBCWF or not.

My eyes are very WIDE OPEN to this fact and yes I am sensitive to it.

[Salty]

Don't remember asking your opinion just responding to what you've said. And I'll respond to everyone else that is in agreement with this stolen allocation policy as I have time. My hope is that a few of the very few that agree with the GOABCs victory will see the light on how important this is and what it actually means. If this goes through its all down hill the door is open and it can't be shut. This is by far the most important issue affecting BC resident hunters ever that I'm aware of.

[Fisher-Dude]

The Roosevelt Elk are in my back yard not 16 hours of driving and a ferry ride away. As retirement gets nearer on the horizon I was looking forward to moose hunting again like I did growing up up north. That chance too just took a big hit. But ya know what even if this stolen allocation did not effect me personally I would still fight it tooth and nail to support those that it did. I guess you don't think that way. At least you don't beat around the bush and try to sell shit like some here I guess. But I don't respect your decision on this and nothing will change that.

Agreed. There are two people posting on here that get their freezers filled every year by the fact that wealthy foreigners are simply shooting our moose for the antlers, and throwing the meat at whomever picks it up.

For the other 101,998 people who hunt in this province, seeing such a wanton cheapening of the value of animals by people who don't give two shits about anything except a set of antlers is infuriating.

The me, Me, ME of those two posters is, frankly, sickening.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Really FD, most of the nonresidents that hunt region take their meat home with them,so the antlers are secondary. You can spin this how ever you like but you should look at the speaking the truth the odd time.

[Salty]

'hillbilly don't take all this shit personally man emotions are sky high right now I've followed your posts here through the years I know how you roll you're one of the good ones. And I'm pretty sure I can speak for everyone here that no one's against the Guide Outfitter business as it is per se. Key words as it is. But resident hunters have been stabbed in the back so sneaky like we didn't even know about it until BCWF got wind what.. a couple weeks ago. We are dead ****ing set against the GOABC though and how they've bribed their way to quota stolen from us! I'll take each GO one by one and make my decision about them and their ethics. But I do see a disproportionate amount of them that couldn't GAF about resident hunters, other outfitters or anyone else but their fat assed selves and how much their business is going to be worth!!!

[Avalanche123]

Agreed. There are two people posting on here that get their freezers filled every year by the fact that wealthy foreigners are simply shooting our moose for the antlers, and throwing the meat at whomever picks it up.

For the other 101,998 people who hunt in this province, seeing such a wanton cheapening of the value of animals by people who don't give two shits about anything except a set of antlers is infuriating.



The me, Me, ME of those two posters is, frankly, sickening.

Quit making assumptions. You don't speak for 101,998 others either. Your exaggeration is affecting your credibility.

[guest]

Chilkoot Bill,
i have in the past had some great respect for your contribution to this site over the years. Some good stuff but how can ..... " YOU " Say that THIS NEW ALLOCATION IS FAIR TO BC RESIDENTS ...... none of you can say thus. As huge tax payers through out our lives all over this PROVINCE, the LIBERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE GOABC has robbed and definitely CHEATED the COMMON BC RESIDENT OUT OF HUGE opportunity. They are responsible for taking away from our future generation of hunters, our kids, our Grand kids. Our RIGHTS AS RESIDENTS , OUR, WE AND Their future.

SHAME ON YOUR GREED AND MISDIRECTION.

How can you ..... AS A TRUE BC RESIDENT, SAY THIS IS A GOOD THING FOR US ........ YOU CANT ! Stand up and grow some kahunas MAN.

THIS IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR TO ALL RESIDENT HUNTERS. THE REGION 4 and posibly 6 decision for GOS on sheep is completely against your own GOVERNMENT STAFF RECOMMENDATIONS ......... Brutal.

Mr. Thomson needs to rethink this. The GOABC AND LIBERALS ARE CHEATING US AS RESIDENTS.

YOU ALL KNOW ....... THIS IS NOT A GOOD DECISION FOR BC RESIDENTS AND HUNTERS ALIKE. ITS JUST NOT RIGHT. !

STAY STRONG EVERYONE, STAY TOGETHER

CT

[guest]

Now isn't that something ........

suddenly your all speechless

NOBODY CAN ACTUALLY SAY ......... THIS IS A GOOD DEAL FOR ANY BC RESIDENT HUNTER OR NOT.

TALK ABOUT DISREPECTING THE VERY PEOPLE THAT VOTED YOU INTO POWER. THE LIBERALS WILL HAVE A TOUGH TIME SAYING

THIS IS GOID FOR BC RESIDENTS, ITS FUTURE, ITS A WIN FOR BC RESIDENTS. NO GUIDE THAT IS A BC RESIDENT, THE GOABC KNOW IT AND GOVERNMENT KNOWS ........


THIS IS TOTAL DISRESPECT FOR ALL BC RESIDENTS. BRUTAL

ALL PARTIES SIT BACK DOWN SND MAKE THIS RIGHT FOR ALL

[houndogger]

Now isn't that something ........

suddenly your all speechless

NOBODY CAN ACTUALLY SAY ......... THIS IS A GOOD DEAL FOR ANY BC RESIDENT HUNTER OR NOT.

TALK ABOUT DISREPECTING THE VERY PEOPLE THAT VOTED YOU INTO POWER. THE LIBERALS WILL HAVE A TOUGH TIME SAYING

THIS IS GOID FOR BC RESIDENTS, ITS FUTURE, ITS A WIN FOR BC RESIDENTS. NO GUIDE THAT IS A BC RESIDENT, THE GOABC KNOW IT AND GOVERNMENT KNOWS ........


THIS IS TOTAL DISRESPECT FOR ALL BC RESIDENTS. BRUTAL

ALL PARTIES SIT BACK DOWN SND MAKE THIS RIGHT FOR ALL

Relax its Christmas for some of us with family's...lol

[bearvalley]

curly top & Fisher Dude are both like diarrhea. Neither one has anything to contribute other than free flowing shit.
I hope every one is having a Great Christmas with family and friends. Even those two.

[Seeker]

Really FD, most of the nonresidents that hunt region take their meat home with them,so the antlers are secondary. You can spin this how ever you like but you should look at the speaking the truth the odd time. It's great to see the guided clients taking the meat home and I am sure it's appreciated whomever consumes it , but to state that the antlers are secondary is asinine. I personally don't know anyone that would pay a hundred times more per pound to go on a guided hunt when they could be like the rest of us with tag soup and go to the grocery store.

[Gamebuster]

Salty....Even if I never guide another day in my life, I don't feel threatened. I personally feel I have ample opportunity. I get the hunts I want that has zero to do with the Outfitters I have worked for.
My eyes are wide open as I experience both sides of the fence.

Roosevelt Elk? Last I looked 6-13 has a two month GOS. Yep a tough hunt but there is opportunity. That said, I enjoy these tough hunts and have never relied on LEH for any critter. And that is why I just don't feel threatened.

Those elk are not Roosevelt's so this argument don't fly

[chilcotin hillbilly]

It's great to see the guided clients taking the meat home and I am sure it's appreciated whomever consumes it , but to state that the antlers are secondary is asinine. I personally don't know anyone that would pay a hundred times more per pound to go on a guided hunt when they could be like the rest of us with tag soup and go to the grocery store.

You don't book a hunt in region 5 to score on a trophy bull, and if you do maybe you should set your bar a little higher.

[Red_Mist]

You don't book a hunt in region 5 to score on a trophy bull, and if you do maybe you should set your bar a little higher.

Trophies are the perception of the hunter....I'm sure lots of hunters find region 5 bulls to be trophies. Also it's going to be a matter of economics.... Cost reflecting expected trophy size.

[guest]

curly top & Fisher Dude are both like diarrhea. Neither one has anything to contribute other than free flowing shit.
I hope every one is having a Great Christmas with family and friends. Even those two.


Now Theres A Real intelligent comment , SHOWS WHAT YOU REALLY ARE, shows your real character. just answer the Question

CAN ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY SAY THIS NEW POLICY IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF BC RESIDENTS AND BC HUNTERS

THIS NEW POLICY IS NOTHING BUT AN INSULT TO ALL RESIDENTS AND TAX PAYERS THAT LIVE AND PLAY IN BC

YOU, YOUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN, YOUR FRIENDS GRAND CHILDREN WILL SOME DAY SEE THE GREED THAT HAS COME FROM ALL OF YOU SINGLE MINDED, SELF CENTERED OUT FOR YOUR SELF MEMBERS OF THE GOABC

I have lived my entire life in BC, fished and hunted my entire life here. NEVER SPENT A DOLLAR HUNTING ANY WHERE ELSE BUT HERE IN B C ...... OVER 45 years of hunting here, appreciated and respected this province.

NEVER IN ALL MY LIFE OF HUNTING, ALL MY DADS HUNTING PRIOR TO ME, HAS ANY THING BEEN SO DISRESPECTFUL TO US AS RESIDENTS, THAT HAVE PUT OUR SOULS INTO OUR PASSION.

THE LIBERALS ARE GOING TO LOOSE FACE AND A TON OF RESPECT FOR WHAT THRY HAVE CHOSEN TO DO WITH THIS POLICY. THESE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT VOTED THEM IN, NEVER AGAIN.

STAY STRONG EVERY ONE, STAY TOGETHER. THE BEAST HAS REARED ITS UGLY HEAD AND WERE ALL WILLING TO GO DOWN WITH S BIG FIGHT.

RESIDENTS OF BC WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS .......... ITS NOTHING BUT GREED BY A SELFISH GROUP LOOKING AT NOTHING BUT PROFIT FOR THEM SELVES..

THE CAMPAIGN HAS JUST BEGUN.

[Hunter of the Stone]

Now There's A Real intelligent comment , SHOWS WHAT YOU REALLY ARE, shows your real character. just answer the Question


You've been showing your intelligence since this allocation was rammed down your throat 2 weeks ago. Maybe you should start answering a few questions from an educated position, rather than just continually spouting off on something you know very little about. You are exactly the type of resident hunter that does no one any good. Your posts and stupidity do way more harm than good.


THIS NEW POLICY IS NOTHING BUT AN INSULT TO ALL RESIDENTS AND TAX PAYERS THAT LIVE AND PLAY IN BC


If the policy is that bad, do something about it. 20 or thirty people going around and around on here like you and Fisher Dude are such a waste of time. 2 weeks and you clowns don't even have 10% of the total hunters in the province, buying into your bullshit. Good luck getting your wish.


YOU, YOUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN, YOUR FRIENDS GRAND CHILDREN WILL SOME DAY SEE THE GREED THAT HAS COME FROM ALL OF YOU SINGLE MINDED, SELF CENTERED OUT FOR YOUR SELF MEMBERS OF THE GOABC


Me my father and my children have all been first hand witnesses to the greed and disgusting conduct of resident hunters fighting over the only buck or bull in the field. You should look back through your posts and see who is self centered and greedy ,or maybe have someone read them to you, oh! Make sure they pronounce all the capitals in the proper tone of voice.


I have lived my entire life in BC, fished and hunted my entire life here. NEVER SPENT A DOLLAR HUNTING ANY WHERE ELSE BUT HERE IN B C ...... OVER 45 years of hunting here, appreciated and respected this province.


45 years hunting in the province. What have you put back into the resource. Please post a list. I'm betting probably about as much as SSS has, pretty much zero.


THE LIBERALS ARE GOING TO LOOSE FACE AND A TON OF RESPECT FOR WHAT THRY HAVE CHOSEN TO DO WITH THIS POLICY. THESE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT VOTED THEM IN, NEVER AGAIN.


Like I said earlier. You guy's have failed to come up with enough numbers to even get the ministers attention yet alone change the out come of an election. Keep dreaming.


NEVER IN ALL MY LIFE OF HUNTING, ALL MY DADS HUNTING PRIOR TO ME, HAS ANY THING BEEN SO DISRESPECTFUL TO US AS RESIDENTS, THAT HAVE PUT OUR SOULS INTO OUR PASSION.


Most residents can't even respect each other when out hunting. I'm not an outfitter but yes I do disrespect many resident hunters and guy's like you top the list.


STAY STRONG EVERY ONE, STAY TOGETHER. THE BEAST HAS REARED ITS UGLY HEAD AND WERE ALL WILLING TO GO DOWN WITH S BIG FIGHT.


Seems like things are calming down. Maybe some people have had a good look at what they were stirred up about and realize how dumb the war is.


RESIDENTS OF BC WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS .......... ITS NOTHING BUT GREED BY A SELFISH GROUP LOOKING AT NOTHING BUT PROFIT FOR THEM SELVES..


Hope you get a few more people signed on if this is what you think. Good Luck. I've seen it too many times before.


THE CAMPAIGN HAS JUST BEGUN.

Yep! To peter out. The same old, same old. BCWF and resident hunters couldn't organize a free F..... for an orphaned pig.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Keep typing willy. Just keep typing.

BTW- how old was that Ken Eng ram? Hope you didn't give him too much money to defend himself.

SSS

[Hunter of the Stone]

[QUOTE=Stone Sheep Steve;1581040]Keep typing willy. Just keep typing.

BTW- how old was that Ken Eng ram? Hope you didn't give him too much money to defend himself.

SSS[/QUOTE

Never gave him any. That's the best you could come up with. Pretty sad!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So how old was that ram willy??

[Salty]

Nice for Willy and company to come back to these threads they sure help our cause :)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Nice for Willy and company to come back to these threads they sure help our cause :)

Thats right Salty. But I think willy is intentionally trying to fire everyone up as I don't think its possible for anyone to be that arrogant without trying.

SSS

[Bear Chaser]

I think Curly Top is the one trying to inflame things.

I haven't seen that many capital letters since Devilbear left.

[brno375]

Maybe if the residents put some effort in hunting wolves my allocation would still be 18 moose over 5 years instead of 6.

Did the number of LEH authorizations drop as well within your territory? I am assuming that if the pie got smaller, everyone was given a smaller piece.

[Hunter of the Stone]

So how old was that ram willy??

That's the best defence you can come with to try and make me look stupid? Pretty lame from a guy like you that operates under a double standard all the time. What is really going on is you and BC Rams stealing from the resident hunter, through taking foreigners on PTA's. That's like outfitting illegally.

How many times have you and your idol BC Rams tried to get PTA on sheep? How many times have you guy's taken away from the resident hunter already on PTA's? Some people will do anything to try and look good on a site like this.

We know the real SSS and BC Rams though don't we. My son and I were barely posting on here when the 2 of you tried sucking up for info. How did you fair on that?

How did you fair on the rest of the lame accusations, you've made on my family?

SSS to many on here you may be the hero your handle implies. To the people in the know, you abuse the system constantly for your benefit and give very little back. I rest my case. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[Hunter of the Stone]

Nice for Willy and company to come back to these threads they sure help our cause :)

Why not. This is much better than the comedy channel on T.V.

[Hunter of the Stone]

Thats right Salty. But I think willy is intentionally trying to fire everyone up as I don't think its possible for anyone to be that arrogant without trying.

SSS

Have a problem with my honesty do you?

Quit trying to be the good guy Steve you're far from it.

I've seen you post nothing on here since the first time I clicked on the site. That was something from your own personal experience. Hear Say publishing and information gathering is what you use it for.

How many resident hunters have you helped find sheep? I've probably assisted 25 to 30 real hunters that go out and harvest selectively. They pass up away more sheep than they shoot, They believe in letting little rams grow into big ones and often come back without horns but enjoying the hunt. If you were this type of hunter, you might have gotten some info and maybe wouldn't be so bitter.

[guest]

I think Curly Top is the one trying to inflame things.

I haven't seen that many capital letters since Devilbear left.

I can't see these small letters with out my glasses LOL HAHA

We have exposed out present enemy BC RESIDENTS KEEP ON TRACK .......

SEE YA BACK AT THE TABLE WILLY YOU CHEAT

STAY STRONG STAY TOGETHER

CT

[guest]

Now Theres A Real intelligent comment , SHOWS WHAT YOU REALLY ARE, shows your real character. just answer the Question

CAN ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY SAY THIS NEW POLICY IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF BC RESIDENTS AND BC HUNTERS

THIS NEW POLICY IS NOTHING BUT AN INSULT TO ALL RESIDENTS AND TAX PAYERS THAT LIVE AND PLAY IN BC

YOU, YOUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN, YOUR FRIENDS GRAND CHILDREN WILL SOME DAY SEE THE GREED THAT HAS COME FROM ALL OF YOU SINGLE MINDED, SELF CENTERED OUT FOR YOUR SELF MEMBERS OF THE GOABC

I have lived my entire life in BC, fished and hunted my entire life here. NEVER SPENT A DOLLAR HUNTING ANY WHERE ELSE BUT HERE IN B C ...... OVER 45 years of hunting here, appreciated and respected this province.

NEVER IN ALL MY LIFE OF HUNTING, ALL MY DADS HUNTING PRIOR TO ME, HAS ANY THING BEEN SO DISRESPECTFUL TO US AS RESIDENTS, THAT HAVE PUT OUR SOULS INTO OUR PASSION.

THE LIBERALS ARE GOING TO LOOSE FACE AND A TON OF RESPECT FOR WHAT THRY HAVE CHOSEN TO DO WITH THIS POLICY. THESE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT VOTED THEM IN, NEVER AGAIN.

STAY STRONG EVERY ONE, STAY TOGETHER. THE BEAST HAS REARED ITS UGLY HEAD AND WERE ALL WILLING TO GO DOWN WITH S BIG FIGHT.

RESIDENTS OF BC WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS .......... ITS NOTHING BUT GREED BY A SELFISH GROUP LOOKING AT NOTHING BUT PROFIT FOR THEM SELVES..

THE CAMPAIGN HAS JUST BEGUN.

here it is again .........

none me of them answer the real question.

[REMINGTON JIM]

That's the best defence you can come with to try and make me look stupid? Pretty lame from a guy like you that operates under a double standard all the time. What is really going on is you and BC Rams stealing from the resident hunter, through taking foreigners on PTA's. That's like outfitting illegally.

How many times have you and your idol BC Rams tried to get PTA on sheep? How many times have you guy's taken away from the resident hunter already on PTA's? Some people will do anything to try and look good on a site like this.

We know the real SSS and BC Rams though don't we. My son and I were barely posting on here when the 2 of you tried sucking up for info. How did you fair on that?

How did you fair on the rest of the lame accusations, you've made on my family?

SSS to many on here you may be the hero your handle implies. To the people in the know, you abuse the system constantly for your benefit and give very little back. I rest my case. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

For those of us who really don't know SSS or BC Rams and You seem to know them Well - Can you Please Elaborate on what they have done Wrong ?? Tell us your side of things ! you say and i Quote you : " Stealing from the Resident Hunter " thats a very SERIOUS allegation - so the rest of us can make up our on mines on whats Really the Truth - if you will not tell us then i am of the opinion that you are all BS ! So whats it going to be i ask you ? :confused:

Cheers RJ

[houndogger]

Chilkoot Bill,
i have in the past had some great respect for your contribution to this site over the years. Some good stuff but how can ..... " YOU " Say that THIS NEW ALLOCATION IS FAIR TO BC RESIDENTS ...... none of you can say thus. As huge tax payers through out our lives all over this PROVINCE, the LIBERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE GOABC has robbed and definitely CHEATED the COMMON BC RESIDENT OUT OF HUGE opportunity. They are responsible for taking away from our future generation of hunters, our kids, our Grand kids. Our RIGHTS AS RESIDENTS , OUR, WE AND Their future.

SHAME ON YOUR GREED AND MISDIRECTION.

How can you ..... AS A TRUE BC RESIDENT, SAY THIS IS A GOOD THING FOR US ........ YOU CANT ! Stand up and grow some kahunas MAN.

THIS IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR TO ALL RESIDENT HUNTERS. THE REGION 4 and posibly 6 decision for GOS on sheep is completely against your own GOVERNMENT STAFF RECOMMENDATIONS ......... Brutal.

Mr. Thomson needs to rethink this. The GOABC AND LIBERALS ARE CHEATING US AS RESIDENTS.

YOU ALL KNOW ....... THIS IS NOT A GOOD DECISION FOR BC RESIDENTS AND HUNTERS ALIKE. ITS JUST NOT RIGHT. !

STAY STRONG EVERYONE, STAY TOGETHER

CT
What I can't get a answer on from the few in the know when the 2007 talks were being negotiatated was why most all outfitters lost quota but not in region 1? The goabc pres at the the time was one who gained big time on elk quota. A very big dollar hunt for them and probably the most wanted draw by residents. Shortly after they form coastal outfitters and the likes of goatguy and clan have stated on here they ain't like the goabc? Sure seems fishy but guess the lambs have been silenced...

[houndogger]

For those of us who really don't know SSS or BC Rams and You seem to know them Well - Can you Please Elaborate on what they have done Wrong ?? Tell us your side of things ! you say and i Quote you : " Stealing from the Resident Hunter " thats a very SERIOUS allegation - so the rest of us can make up our on mines on whats Really the Truth - if you will not tell us then i am of the opinion that you are all BS ! So whats it going to be i ask you ? :confused:

Cheers RJ
Make believe friendship deals on hunter host comes to mind...

[bearvalley]

I see that the numbers are now down to 618 lost hunts or 186 animals. Doesn't sound nearly as drastic as "The Guides are Stealing 40%". We'd all be better off moving forward and making more wildlife than we're gaining pissing on each other.

[bearvalley]

Make believe friendship deals on hunter host comes to mind...

No, they're just really big hearted guys.

[bearvalley]

It would be interesting to know how many of the sour ones wanted to be an outfitter at one time in the past. For a few I'd imagine life passed by before they could scratch up enough cash or the body was done by the time they had the loot. Nothing left but old age misery. For others it's cheaper to guide their " friends".

[Whonnock Boy]

Ok, finally back to some allocation talk, versus the personal bs that's going on from both sides here.

Again, these are the numbers based on last years numbers, versus this years. Please remind us what the numbers are if we go 90/10, 75/25 BV......


I see that the numbers are now down to 618 lost hunts or 186 animals. Doesn't sound nearly as drastic as "The Guides are Stealing 40%". We'd all be better off moving forward and making more wildlife than we're gaining pissing on each other.

[Fred1]

Well there goes 8 minutes of my life ill never get back... super thread....

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I see that the numbers are now down to 618 lost hunts or 186 animals. Doesn't sound nearly as drastic as "The Guides are Stealing 40%". We'd all be better off moving forward and making more wildlife than we're gaining pissing on each other.

YOur right beavervalley, We have a fight coming to keep hunting rights on FN titled lands. If the newest law suit goes their way the whole Chilcotin will be titled land and not accessible for anyone without written permission. Let work this together.

[guest]

Chilcot hillbilly,

in in you honest opinion ......... CAN YOU SAY THIS IS A GOOD DEAL FOR BC RESIDENTS. CAN YOU SAY THIS IS A GOOD DECISION FOR YOUR GRAND KIDS.

So so much for your credibility and respect for the resident hunters.

IT WOULD BE REAL NICE In their opinion WHEN THE GOABC can hold their LEGACY TO CLAIM YUP, IT WAS US THAT SCREWED OVER THE RESIDENCE OF BC.

Go LIBERAL ........ NEVER AGAIN.

[bearvalley]

YOur right beavervalley, We have a fight coming to keep hunting rights on FN titled lands. If the newest law suit goes their way the whole Chilcotin will be titled land and not accessible for anyone without written permission. Let work this together.

Ive pointed to the FNs issue a few times in these allocation discussions. If decisions continue to go in FNs favour neither Thomsons policy or any other will mean squat. But I'll wager that FN outfitters will be guiding non resident hunters in BC , while the rest of us are sitting at home bitching about it. Then there'll be some howling.
It's time everyone pull the blinders off and move forward. Nobody's right, we're all wrong and running in a circle.

[1899]

YEA and again for FOREIGNers who will work for near nothing :icon_frow just to be here ! :evil: RJ

Many of the owners are foreigners too.

[guest]

Many of the owners are foreigners too.


And nd with this statement above lies most of the disrespect to BC residents ....... Only the big guys making the Big Money off BC residents back.

stay strong BC residents, stay together

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That's the best defence you can come with to try and make me look stupid?

You certainly don't need my help to make you look stupid

Pretty lame from a guy like you that operates under a double standard all the time. What is really going on is you and BC Rams stealing from the resident hunter, through taking foreigners on PTA's. That's like outfitting illegally.

Compensation is the key here. Forgetting to give back a used Basspro hat probably doesn't qualify. Personal reward also doesn't qualify either. I know it's hard for someone like yourself to understand this since you spent most of your life doing it while being financially compensated. Neither of us are interested in doing it again as our personal time in the mountains is more important to us. Our free time is limited.

How many times have you and your idol BC Rams tried to get PTA on sheep?

Zero. Pretty sure these are not possible to get?
Greg IS indeed one of my idols. Beasly said it best at the end of part II.

How many times have you guy's taken away from the resident hunter already on PTA's?

Rams did one in his lifetime for goats in an extremely underutilized location by residents. Personally, I saw over 100 goats.

Some people will do anything to try and look good on a site like this.

We know the real SSS and BC Rams though don't we. My son and I were barely posting on here when the 2 of you tried sucking up for info. How did you fair on that?

Never did that myself but can only speak for myself.

How did you fair on the rest of the lame accusations, you've made on my family?

SSS to many on here you may be the hero your handle implies.

It's a forum username. I like to chase Stone's sheep. Sorry if you think it means more. I'm just a regular average joe resident hunter. Nothing more...nothing less:neutral:.


To the people in the know, you abuse the system constantly for your benefit and give very little back. I rest my case. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Not sure what you mean on this one.


Have a problem with my honesty do you?

Yes, I have a problem with honesty. I'm too honest. Been told that by more than a few people. Doesn't go hand in hand with being a sheep hunter.:lol:

Quit trying to be the good guy Steve you're far from it.

I've seen you post nothing on here since the first time I clicked on the site. That was something from your own personal experience. Hear Say publishing and information gathering is what you use it for.

Sometimes I share the experiences of friends and family on here. Sometimes I do not. When I do share, it's about inspiring other people to get out themselves or take their kids out and enjoy this beautiful province.

How many resident hunters have you helped find sheep? I've probably assisted 25 to 30 real hunters that go out and harvest selectively.

I've helped several. BCrams has helped many more. My knowledge base is more limited.

They pass up away more sheep than they shoot, They believe in letting little rams grow into big ones and often come back without horns but enjoying the hunt.

Looking at our past sheep hunting threads, I think we have unequivocally proven that one does not have to take a ram to have a great experience in the mountains.

If you were this type of hunter, you might have gotten some info and maybe wouldn't be so bitter.

I have never been interested in your info.

Maybe one day we'll find those rams that we all dream about.....or at least we'll have fun trying.

SSS

[bearvalley]

Deadog, not to be difficult but what is BC's share to residents/non residents when applied on the entire harvest province wide. Not just applied to LEH hunts. That way we can keep it simple and fairly compare BC's harvest opportunities to that of other jurisdictions. I'm sure you or GG can come up with that.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Make believe friendship deals on hunter host comes to mind...

Chad was and is friends with Keith for quite sometime before. Chad was friends with Greg. Greg's name was on the permit but it could have easily been Chad's.
They wanted to do a show on how a deaf person could overcome obstacles in life and the mountains and be an efficient hunter.

I think that was accomplished.

Not sure why you have a problem with that??

SSS

[bearvalley]

Basing assumptions on the grizzly bear hunt is a poor yardstick. Grizzlies are a management hunt. It really doesn't matter if one party wants to call them trophies and the other call them meat. X number need removed each year to curtail a runaway grizzly population. It's already being seen in MUs with no grizzly season. In my opinion outfitters are the ones that are going to achieve this.

[guest]

Bottom line,
Almost every single business across North America from 2001 to 2007 was doing good business, reaping the rewards of the economy at the time. Bang 2008 hit, a lot a business again suffered the rath of a broken economy, and many continue to try to fight back. Logging, commercial fishing etc etc all big blows, right across the Entire business sector.

But since when does a Government, sell out its own residents and the health of its environment to the rich few at the top, many foreign investors making hay off the backs of BC Residents. Taking advantage while they can, we as residents need to stand together and not let it happen.

BC IS NOT FOR SALE .......... STAY STRONG RESIDENTS OF BC, STAY TOGETHER.

CT

[GoatGuy]

Basing assumptions on the grizzly bear hunt is a poor yardstick. Grizzlies are a management hunt. It really doesn't matter if one party wants to call them trophies and the other call them meat. X number need removed each year to curtail a runaway grizzly population. It's already being seen in MUs with no grizzly season. In my opinion outfitters are the ones that are going to achieve this.

The grizzly hunt is not a management hunt. The hunting related harvest is managed so that hunting and human caused mortalities do not cause a grizzly bear population decline. We are managing for increased grizzly bear populations across the province.

That is why sow harvest is limited to 30% of the allowable mortality (hunting and non-hunting included). When hunts are closed it is not because we are creating a population decline, it is because we have exceeded the allowable mortality.

If we wanted to "manage" grizzly bears we would up the harvest rate significantly and also increase the sow harvest. There are bear populations that could have been harvested at better than 15% and still not limited the population, never mind created a population decline or "manage" the population.

Harvesting boars does nothing to 'manage' grizzly bears. It's a hunt - that is all. You can maybe argue about keeping them 'respectful' of people, but you certainly cannot argue they are being managed.

And if you want to argue with someone about it, pick up the phone and call Bruce McLellan - he's one of the most respected and experienced bear researchers in the world with a lifetime of field experience. No need to drag this on into a long online debate.

[GoatGuy]

What I can't get a answer on from the few in the know when the 2007 talks were being negotiatated was why most all outfitters lost quota but not in region 1? The goabc pres at the the time was one who gained big time on elk quota. A very big dollar hunt for them and probably the most wanted draw by residents. Shortly after they form coastal outfitters and the likes of goatguy and clan have stated on here they ain't like the goabc? Sure seems fishy but guess the lambs have been silenced...

It was only a couple days ago, "Willy and the gang" were saying the island elk thing isn't a big deal - now it is?? And now it's personal. Ok.

Most of the outfitters who lost 'quota' was because their quota was based on wildlife which did not exist in their territory - and sometimes never even existed. Others had quota which no one could rationalize other than the fact that 'it happened'. One-offs, backdoor deals, call them what you want. In a lot of these situations the public was being told guide-outfitter "allocation" was 25% when the reality of it was 50% or more. Draws that were 200:1 had been allocated 50:50 or in reality even higher than that.

Most of the outfitters lost very little in terms of allocation, particularly when you don't cherry pick the years 2002-2007. Quota yes, allocation no.


For example, the outfitter in the Elk Valley was shooting grizzlies which existed in some far off theoretical place like Castlegar, and the outfitters in the Flathead were shooting sheep that lived in Radium, a National Park. Then we have 'success factors' which inflate everyone's quota resulting in an over-valuation and localized overruns. There's a pile of outfitters in Region 4 who had quota for sheep and took a lot of hunters on a lot of horseback rides and killed one ram in 5 years or never killed a ram at all. The result was localized over-harvest, over-harvest at the PMU level even, and outfit valuations which were not consistent with what actually existed on the ground. Not a good business model, never mind a wildlife management tool.

Government and biologists realized the approach of counting animals from another time zone, as well as netting out a regional quota which was significantly higher than the allocation is probably not in the best interests of wildlife or British Columbians.

You get a share of what exists in your area - not your neighbours, not residents and not some far off land.

[BCrams]

That's the best defence you can come with to try and make me look stupid?

How many times have you and your idol BC Rams tried to get PTA on sheep?

Zero

How many times have you guy's taken away from the resident hunter already on PTA's?

1 PTA hunt applied for ever for 1 tag. In an extremely underutilized area.

Some people will do anything to try and look good on a site like this.

We have always been a promoter and enjoyed sharing stories. You on the other hand have single handedly discouraged a lot of hunters from ever posting on here.

My son and I were barely posting on here when the 2 of you tried sucking up for info. How did you fair on that?

Wow!!! you've gotten worse than the plane buzzing you liked to harp on me about!! iirc from pms that was way back in 2004 / 05? Time has flown willy but you're still stuck like you were in your guiding days. I can't even remember being that it is over 10 years ago and I was fairly new into sheep hunting. I asked Carl and even chided / bugged him on certain spots back in the day. You need to get a grip and taking your words you used to like saying "quit whining like a child" and move on.



We just enjoy chasing Stone's and have had some very rewarding trips and I am glad we didn't get any info from you back in the day a decade ago!! It just wouldn't have been as satisfying and why we pave our own road when hunting sheep up north.

We've been very helpful with a lot of sheep hunters as well to grow the sport.


For those of us who really don't know SSS or BC Rams and You seem to know them Well - Can you Please Elaborate on what they have done Wrong ?? Tell us your side of things ! you say and i Quote you : " Stealing from the Resident Hunter " thats a very SERIOUS allegation - so the rest of us can make up our on mines on whats Really the Truth - if you will not tell us then i am of the opinion that you are all BS ! So whats it going to be i ask you ? :confused:

Cheers RJ


Make believe friendship deals on hunter host comes to mind...

Remington - I am friends with and was guiding waterfowl for Chad. Chad is very good friends with the Beasley's. I was out there when he was wrapping up a waterfowl show with them and they thought it was pretty cool and couldn't wrap their heads over a hard of hearing person calling and hunting. We kept in touch and they wanted to do a show. I was pretty hesitant over the whole pta but over time and getting to know him better I thought it would be pretty cool and it was a great experience for us that we can chalk up as something we enjoyed. There have been many in the same boat and would say it was a great experience.

[Downtown]

The difference I see here is the product they sell belongs to the BC public


So does Oil-Coal-Timber and pretty well all and every natural Resource. Why should be Nature and Wild Game be treated differently. Besides unlike resident Hunters, GO are highly regulated, have a vested interest in there Land base and are therefore additional Eyes and Ears for the Branch.

Get it, I hope.
Thanks.

[Piperdown]

ive pointed to the fns issue a few times in these allocation discussions. If decisions continue to go in fns favour neither thomsons policy or any other will mean squat. But i'll wager that fn outfitters will be guiding non resident hunters in bc , while the rest of us are sitting at home bitching about it. Then there'll be some howling.
It's time everyone pull the blinders off and move forward. Nobody's right, we're all wrong and running in a circle.

nice deflection

[Hunter of the Stone]

[QUOTEIt was only a couple days ago, "Willy and the gang" were saying the island elk thing isn't a big deal - now it is?? And now it's personal. Ok.
][/QUOTE

For your information. Willie has never commented on island elk. Again get your information correct, before babbling.

[Daybreak]

So does Oil-Coal-Timber and pretty well all and every natural Resource. Why should be Nature and Wild Game be treated differently. Besides unlike resident Hunters, GO are highly regulated, have a vested interest in there Land base and are therefore additional Eyes and Ears for the Branch.

Get it, I hope.
Thanks.

So when was the last time a member of the BC public took a day off to go harvest a sack of coal for the furnace or a bucket of oil for the family sedan or 40 yards of lumber to mill and build a home?

Yah, they all belong to the public alright but their application in terms of the public use are as different as night and day.

Do you get that?

[Sitkaspruce]

So does Oil-Coal-Timber and pretty well all and every natural Resource. Why should be Nature and Wild Game be treated differently. Besides unlike resident Hunters, GO are highly regulated, have a vested interest in there Land base and are therefore additional Eyes and Ears for the Branch.

Get it, I hope.
Thanks.

Right, I got it now, the GO pay millions and millions in royalties........and they benefit every BC'er with their 4-5 month season.....

Highly regulated.....where does that comment come from?? Vested interest in their land base?? Yup, they do, but only if it benefits the business, which means animals and animals only. I can tell you lots of stories where they have diverted fish streams, built illegal roads, crossings and cleared crown land without permission.....all the benefit them But they really stewards of the land......

As for eyes and ears of the branch, so are, most are not as they would have to turn themselves in as well........

But this is not a basing the GO business, we can open another post on that one.

This is about allocation and the way the BC gov has done an unjust to the resident hunters of BC.

Are you resident hunter of BC Downtown?? Do you think the new allocation is good for the residence hunters of BC? Do you work in the GO business??

Cheers

SS

[Whonnock Boy]

Did you miss my comment, or are you still crunching the numbers?


I see that the numbers are now down to 618 lost hunts or 186 animals.



Please remind us what the numbers are if we go 90/10, 75/25 BV......

[444 marlin]

So does Oil-Coal-Timber and pretty well all and every natural Resource. Why should be Nature and Wild Game be treated differently. Besides unlike resident Hunters, GO are highly regulated, have a vested interest in there Land base and are therefore additional Eyes and Ears for the Branch.

Get it, I hope.
Thanks.
all natural resources should be controlled by the BC residents not sold off for political donations.The wild life situation is a food source and residents should eat before the greed mongers and forieners

[keoke]

Im in the same boat as you. I think im going to feed it 80gr tsx with either h4350 or varget.

[bearvalley]

The grizzly hunt is not a management hunt. The hunting related harvest is managed so that hunting and human caused mortalities do not cause a grizzly bear population decline. We are managing for increased grizzly bear populations across the province.

That is why sow harvest is limited to 30% of the allowable mortality (hunting and non-hunting included). When hunts are closed it is not because we are creating a population decline, it is because we have exceeded the allowable mortality.

If we wanted to "manage" grizzly bears we would up the harvest rate significantly and also increase the sow harvest. There are bear populations that could have been harvested at better than 15% and still not limited the population, never mind created a population decline or "manage" the population.

Harvesting boars does nothing to 'manage' grizzly bears. It's a hunt - that is all. You can maybe argue about keeping them 'respectful' of people, but you certainly cannot argue they are being managed.

And if you want to argue with someone about it, pick up the phone and call Bruce McLellan - he's one of the most respected and experienced bear researchers in the world with a lifetime of field experience. No need to drag this on into a long online debate.

Thanks for the Google lesson on grizzly bears Goat Guy. You can call it a meat hunt when it's harvested by a resident, your buddies can call it a trophy hunt when a guide helps a client tag one. I'll call it a management hunt. We have a healthy grizzly population and in some areas they're thriving too well.
You need to open your eyes as to what a " boar that doesn't need managed" does to wildlife populations. And sows aren't innocent. Moose or caribou calf cutlets are good grizzly fare. So let's keep rolling over and let grizzlies become an unhuntable species. We'll just have a bigger wreck. Didn't the BCWF endorse a lower number of LEH grizzly tags being issued to resident hunters My question is why? Doesn't that go against the theory of making more wildlife.
As to phoning McLellan, most of the politically correct answers you get over the phone or read in a book aren't what the guys in the know will tell you over a beer. Google on my friend.
I still haven't figured out how 40% of BCs harvestable wildlife went down to 3500 lost opportunities then dropped to losing 186 animals if the guides clients get them. When you look at it 186 animals providing 3500 hunting opportunities shows that some must have very poor hunting skills. Or maybe that numbers inflated as well.
I'd be very interested as to what the province wide resident / non resident share really is, province wide for all species in all MUs. Is it 4%. Maybe only 2%. But the I guess the only harvest numbers accounted for are the guides, so we'll never really know.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for the Google lesson on grizzly bears Goat Guy. You can call it a meat hunt when it's harvested by a resident, your buddies can call it a trophy hunt when a guide helps a client tag one. I'll call it a management hunt. We have a healthy grizzly population and in some areas they're thriving too well.
You need to open your eyes as to what a " boar that doesn't need managed" does to wildlife populations. And sows aren't innocent. Moose or caribou calf cutlets are good grizzly fare. So let's keep rolling over and let grizzlies become an unhuntable species. We'll just have a bigger wreck. Didn't the BCWF endorse a lower number of LEH grizzly tags being issued to resident hunters My question is why? Doesn't that go against the theory of making more wildlife.
As to phoning McLellan, most of the politically correct answers you get over the phone or read in a book aren't what the guys in the know will tell you over a beer. Google on my friend.
I still haven't figured out how 40% of BCs harvestable wildlife went down to 3500 lost opportunities then dropped to losing 186 animals if the guides clients get them. When you look at it 186 animals providing 3500 hunting opportunities shows that some must have very poor hunting skills. Or maybe that numbers inflated as well.
I'd be very interested as to what the province wide resident / non resident share really is, province wide for all species in all MUs. Is it 4%. Maybe only 2%. But the I guess the only harvest numbers accounted for are the guides, so we'll never really know.

Bruce has said on multiple occasions, "tell them they can fire me then." He is a hardcore researcher. He doesn't care about politics or being politically correct. That is why government often does not let him speak to the media on grizzly bear management - he does not tow the party line. There is another grizz researcher who nobody's allowed to talk about who gives anyone who wants to know the straight goods. If you want to know about grizzly bears those are the people to ask. A lifetime of following grizzly bears around, radio collars, gps collars, hair traps, darting and collaring grizzlies from the air, kill site investigations pale in comparison to anyone's "experience" and knowledge in BC. The longest standing grizzly project in North America. There isn't a person in BC who could hold a candle to the research and experience he has - not ONE.

Unfortunately the rest of your rhetoric is fiction. No one endorsed lower grizzly LEHs. Where you got that from is beyond me. Whoever it was feel free to discount them as a liar in the future - add them to the list which is getting longer by the day. Pile of folks in Region 4 who have been added to that list in the last couple of days.

Again we are dragging science into an online debate. If you don't care enough to know, or pick up the phone and call one of the world's most respected grizzly bear ecologists please don't waste my time. If you want to poke the bear bring some numbers. You've been asked on multiple occasions and there has been no follow through. The BCWF press release was very clear on where the numbers came from and the supporting data was also released to the public.

You are starting to sound like a GOABCer. Lots of fiction, hearsay and an unwillingness to ask subject matter experts. The days of entertaining that kind of BS are over. GOABC and its approach are becoming irrelevant. GOABC is ticking more resident hunters and British Columbians off by the day.

If you want to know about grizzly bears feel free to pick up the phone and ask the source instead of the BS program and "I heard".

And if you want to know about what the BCWF endorses feel free to pick up the phone and call or check the website. Pretty sure there was a letter sent to the director of Fish and Wildlife on the grizzly issue in August and there have been a few meetings since. I have a couple emails in my inbox about this issue from last week.

Lastly, separate yourself from the crowd. If you want to talk numbers then bring some. The business of "I heard" is not something people are entertaining anymore. Wildlife managers, researchers, ecologists, resident hunters and British Columbians are not impressed. GOABC and "I heard" are becoming irrelevant.

[REMINGTON JIM]

For those of us who really don't know SSS or BC Rams and You seem to know them Well - Can you Please Elaborate on what they have done Wrong ?? Tell us your side of things ! you say and i Quote you : " Stealing from the Resident Hunter " thats a very SERIOUS allegation - so the rest of us can make up our on mines on whats Really the Truth - if you will not tell us then i am of the opinion that you are all BS ! So whats it going to be i ask you ? :confused:

Cheers RJ

NEVER did get a reply either on here or a a PM from Hunter of the Stone - Really would like a BETTER explanation of what HE ( Hunter of the Stone ) meant by SSS STEALING from the Resident Hunters !

So Hunter of the Stone - you gonna speak up this time or shut the F**K up ? :confused: Your choice ? But make one - OK Thks

Cheers RJ

[Fisher-Dude]

So does Oil-Coal-Timber and pretty well all and every natural Resource. Why should be Nature and Wild Game be treated differently. Besides unlike resident Hunters, GO are highly regulated, have a vested interest in there Land base and are therefore additional Eyes and Ears for the Branch.

Get it, I hope.
Thanks.

I dunno, Curly. Seems to me that the "vested interest in the land" wouldn't include killing every legal sheep on the mountain. How many more sheep is your outfit going to kill? The exec at GOABC has already said they are going from an average of about 11/year to 20/year in region 4, basically doubling their average annual kill.

I don't think that's too good for people who claim some sort of "vested interest" in the land. And it sure isn't good for the sheep.

[Hunter of the Stone]

NEVER did get a reply either on here or a a PM from Hunter of the Stone - Really would like a BETTER explanation of what HE ( Hunter of the Stone ) meant by SSS STEALING from the Resident Hunters !

So Hunter of the Stone - you gonna speak up this time or shut the F**K up ? :confused: Your choice ? But make one - OK Thks

Cheers RJ

How about you ask them. You're not going to believe what I tell you anyway. In fact, I have my doubts if you even know what a PTA is. If you did you would not be asking the question. I rest my case. On the other matter, I have no intentions of shutting the F**K up as you request. The people that need to shut up well very shortly into the new year as your crying peters out like all ways.

[Hunter of the Stone]

I dunno, Curly. Seems to me that the "vested interest in the land" wouldn't include killing every legal sheep on the mountain.

Like shooting spike/fork moose and decimating the moose herds. This is what the resident does not the guide.

[d6dan]

PTA = Permit to accompany

for those of you not in the know. :wink:

[REMINGTON JIM]

How about you ask them. You're not going to believe what I tell you anyway. In fact, I have my doubts if you even know what a PTA is. If you did you would not be asking the question. I rest my case. On the other matter, I have no intentions of shutting the F**K up as you request. The people that need to shut up well very shortly into the new year as your crying peters out like all ways.

May be i am not going to believe you KNOW cause your full of SHIT ! - and if you think you can BULLY me you better start rethinking that cause it ain't gonna happen - and yea both BC Rams and SSS and a few others have pm ed me with there side of the storey and it does sound a lot more CREDIBLE then you do ! You know your not doing the GOBAC anygood and you sure as hell are not Welcome on HBC - so GFY ! Im DONE with you and i think a lot of others are too ! :wink:

Cheers RJ

[LBM]

Like shooting spike/fork moose and decimating the moose herds. This is what the resident does not the guide.

I can only speak about region 4 but yes I believe the spike/fork moose season is not a good thing for conservation.

[Fisher-Dude]

I can only speak about region 4 but yes I believe the spike/fork moose season is not a good thing for conservation.

You have zero science or population stats to back that up. But feel free to give your unfounded opinion on the matter.

[LBM]

May be i am not going to believe you KNOW cause your full of SHIT ! - and if you think you can BULLY me you better start rethinking that cause it ain't gonna happen - and yea both BC Rams and SSS and a few others have pm ed me with there side of the storey and it does sound a lot more CREDIBLE then you do ! You know your not doing the GOBAC anygood and you sure as hell are not Welcome on HBC - so GFY ! Im DONE with you and i think a lot of others are too ! :wink:

Cheers RJ

Im glad hunter of the stone is back and I don't see any where on this topic where he was full of ----. BC rams and SSS took out non-residents on permits and killed a couple of animals thus taking them away from residents. The same thing they and many others are complaining about that the guide outfitters are doing. So in my opinion they are hypocrites.

[Fisher-Dude]

So in my opinion they are hypocrites.

How many times did those non-residents you took out with your hounds buy gas for your truck?

[LBM]

You have zero science or population stats to back that up. But feel free to give your unfounded opinion on the matter.

Post #327 in the letters to MLA thread may help a bit.
Can you post up the population stats for the last 4 or 5 years for each MU in region 4?

[LBM]

How many times did those non-residents you took out with your hounds buy gas for your truck?

Never, to me that is compensation.

[Fisher-Dude]

Never, to me that is compensation.

You stick with that version of events. That's the safest route for you on this forum.

Nice to see you admit you're taking non-residents out.

[Hunter of the Stone]

May be i am not going to believe you KNOW cause your full of SHIT ! - and if you think you can BULLY me you better start rethinking that cause it ain't gonna happen - and yea both BC Rams and SSS and a few others have pm ed me with there side of the storey and it does sound a lot more CREDIBLE then you do ! You know your not doing the GOBAC anygood and you sure as hell are not Welcome on HBC - so GFY ! Im DONE with you and i think a lot of others are too ! :wink:

Cheers RJ

I would like to know how I'm Bullying you. Typical uninformed resident all for me attitude is what you have. I'm glad the PTA's are now clear in your mind. When you didn't even know what they were a day ago. Now you're brainwashed by 2 of the worst abusers of that program. Lets be clear although they won't admit it. They also tried to work the statement. PTA's are at the discretion of the manager. Into a PTA for sheep. Now be done with me if you want. I'm far from done supporting wildlife and more restriction on all hunters.

[LBM]

You stick with that version of events. That's the safest route for you on this forum.

Nice to see you admit you're taking non-residents out.

Why lie about things doesn't seem to help you.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Im glad hunter of the stone is back and I don't see any where on this topic where he was full of ----. BC rams and SSS took out non-residents on permits and killed a couple of animals thus taking them away from residents. The same thing they and many others are complaining about that the guide outfitters are doing. So in my opinion they are hypocrites.

Couple animals? Please elaborate.

[houndogger]

Just to clarify Permit to accompany can only be done in areas of GOS. So any attempt at stating it is taking opportunity away from residents is simply a lie. it is unfortunate GOABC cannot just stick to facts and continually "spin" items such as the above. As stated before, the simple truth is residents of bc have less opportunity this week than we had on dec 10th. Spin the numbers any way you want.. but that simple truth is agreed upon by all.

How is it not if they kill a animal that belongs to the residents of BC?

[bearvalley]

Just to clarify Permit to accompany can only be done in areas of GOS. So any attempt at stating it is taking opportunity away from residents is simply a lie.

I have to disagree.
Ex 1: A resident of Ontario comes to BC to hunt a moose with his "friend" in a GOS area under a PTA.
The Ontario resident shoots a bull moose. He takes it home to Ontario. It's his.
Or let's take it farther....
Ex 2: A resident of Ontario comes to BC to hunt moose with a Licensed Guide Outfitter in a GOS area.
The Ontario resident shoots a bull moose. He takes it home to Ontario. It's his.

I fail to see much difference between the two scenarios. Both moose went to Ontario.

[boilerroom]

How is it not if they kill a animal that belongs to the residents of BC?

I'm curious also...

[houndogger]

I'm curious also...

600 pta is a fair ding a year don't you think?

[Alpine Addict]

I have to disagree.
Ex 1: A resident of Ontario comes to BC to hunt a moose with his "friend" in a GOS area under a PTA.
The Ontario resident shoots a bull moose. He takes it home to Ontario. It's his.
Or let's take it farther....
Ex 2: A resident of Ontario comes to BC to hunt moose with a Licensed Guide Outfitter in a GOS area.
The Ontario resident shoots a bull moose. He takes it home to Ontario. It's his.

I fail to see much difference between the two scenarios. Both moose went to Ontario.

Exactly. X2

[boilerroom]

600 pta is a fair ding a year don't you think?

I'd like to see a system where a small number of non-residents are allowed to participate in an LEH system where guiding was not mandatory and PTAs were eliminated.

If someone has a Grandma from out of Province that wants to hunt - there's her chance :lol: and if she wants to hire a guide to help - let her at 'em!

[houndogger]

[QUOE=Deaddog;1581619]again, lets keep it factual, what you have not said above is in regards to the allocation policy, a PTA hunt cannot occur for a species that is on LEH. Thus the PTA does not "stop" a resident of BC from hunting in that area.

Reduction of opportunity for resident hunters via the Thomson allocation policy actually will "stop" residents from hunting a percentage of the animals that were taken away by the Thomson Allocation policy. GOABC's opposition to PTA's comes down to money once again, wanting more of the pie. In the latest sneaky maneuver the GOABC had the trappers raise PTA's as an issue at the provincial hunting and trapping meeting.. really... how is that a trappers issue, so happens the trappers rep also guides.. go figure!!! My question to you is when is enough going to be enough.
you do not see resident hunters continually trying to subvert GOABC's business or take away animals from them. We had an agreement in 2007 and by GOABC'S own admission , they booted their exec out, began to covet gov't and donate money to them. BCWF stuck by there word and did not try and take anything away from goabc.

The outrage you see today is a combination of the Thomson allocation policy and the continued grinding by GOABC at every turn of resident hunters.[/QUOTE]

The exec at the time sure got a ridiculous boost in Rosie elk didn't they. Very strange...

[houndogger]

I'd like to see a system where a small number of non-residents are allowed to participate in an LEH system where guiding was not mandatory and PTAs were eliminated.

If someone has a Grandma from out of Province that wants to hunt - there's her chance :lol: and if she wants to hire a guide to help - let her at 'em!

The system in place is being abused it's very obvious. When I signed up to do some contract work for the ministry I was point black asked if I had done any PTA in the past. Lol it's obviously a very grey area. You take me for a goat I will take you for...friends? Lol

[Gateholio]

This is obviously getting pretty personal. I'm going to warn people to keep to actual FACTS and discuss the subject only.

People that can't follow this pretty simple request will get time outs or just get booted off HBC again.

Hope that is clear enough.

[Rackmastr]

The system in place is being abused it's very obvious. When I signed up to do some contract work for the ministry I was point black asked if I had done any PTA in the past. Lol it's obviously a very grey area. You take me for a goat I will take you for...friends? Lol

Its also a great opportunity to be able to hunt with friends and family from another province. I hunt Alberta with friends and enjoy my time over there. I look forward to spending time with a couple of those friends in BC on a hunt sometime too, as exploring different provinces, states, etc is a great experience in my opinion.

Yes, its abused at times, however its also a valuable tool and one that opens doors for people to be able to spend time with family and friends doing what we enjoy. I'd love to be able to take my Dad for a northern moose hunt at one point down the road and let him see northern BC with a tag in his pocket.

[LBM]

Its also a great opportunity to be able to hunt with friends and family from another province. I hunt Alberta with friends and enjoy my time over there. I look forward to spending time with a couple of those friends in BC on a hunt sometime too, as exploring different provinces, states, etc is a great experience in my opinion.

Yes, its abused at times, however its also a valuable tool and one that opens doors for people to be able to spend time with family and friends doing what we enjoy. I'd love to be able to take my Dad for a northern moose hunt at one point down the road and let him see northern BC with a tag in his pocket.
Why does he need a tag in his pocket, he could still go along with you as an observer just like your friend did this year on your goat hunt.
IMO the PTA is abused more then not one change would like to see is that the non-resident must hunt off the residents tags like with the junior tags.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

one change would like to see is that the non-resident must hunt off the residents tags like with the junior tags.

Interesting idea. I like it.

[TARCHER]

Good you stepped in Gatehouse, your timing was about right. Been hunting happily along in BC for over 40 yrs, having a good time, meat in the freezer. Never even heard of this PTA till 2 days ago. Interesting.

[houndogger]

Its also a great opportunity to be able to hunt with friends and family from another province. I hunt Alberta with friends and enjoy my time over there. I look forward to spending time with a couple of those friends in BC on a hunt sometime too, as exploring different provinces, states, etc is a great experience in my opinion.

Yes, its abused at times, however its also a valuable tool and one that opens doors for people to be able to spend time with family and friends doing what we enjoy. I'd love to be able to take my Dad for a northern moose hunt at one point down the road and let him see northern BC with a tag in his pocket.

I think family PTA's would b fine IMO.

[bearvalley]

Interesting idea. I like it.

Great idea all around. Completely removes the cloud over the " friend " issue.

[Rackmastr]

Why does he need a tag in his pocket, he could still go along with you as an observer just like your friend did this year on your goat hunt.
IMO the PTA is abused more then not one change would like to see is that the non-resident must hunt off the residents tags like with the junior tags.

Our opinions differ on this one, so not much point in going round and round about it IMO.

That being said, I dont mind your idea that you've posted, however how does it address any of the 'abuse' that you are directly talking about?

[Rackmastr]

Great idea all around. Completely removes the cloud over the " friend " issue.

Not sure how it does that....as under that system people still could pay for the ability and do the same type of abuse, only difference is the tag would be filled as a resident tag. Same issues that people are stating are big problems (paying, fake friends, deals, etc)

Then non-hunting family members start getting tags so their friends of friends can shoot critters, etc, etc...

Abuse happens regardless of the program. Hell, cancel the PTA all together and abuse will still happen, it will just be done in secrecy, etc. Its a sad reality that any system is going to have abuse.

[Whonnock Boy]

To add, we would be punishing the many, because of the few.

[bearvalley]

Abuse happens regardless of the program. Hell, cancel the PTA all together and abuse will still happen, it will just be done in secrecy, etc. Its a sad reality that any system is going to have abuse.

Sad to say, but you're right.

[Gateholio]

To add, we would be punishing the many, because of the few.

Exactly. Even if there wasn't a PTA, a resident could still bring a "friend" on a sheep hunt for "wildlife photography" purposes. You could drive yourself nuts trying to figure out every angle. PTA isn't a real problem.

Bringing it up is just an attempt by GOABC to deflect what's been going on. Stay focused...

[Piperdown]

Exactly. Even if there wasn't a PTA, a resident could still bring a "friend" on a sheep hunt for "wildlife photography" purposes. You could drive yourself nuts trying to figure out every angle. PTA isn't a real problem.

Bringing it up is just an attempt by GOABC to deflect what's been going on. Stay focused...

Right on Gates keep focused people!!!

[Hunter of the Stone]

the concern over pta's are simply GOABC greed. Instead of attempting to grow their clientel, they have resorted to trying to steal whatever they can from residents. 102,000 resident hunters... 600 PTA's and this is a huge concern for GOABC??? wow. But back to the topic at hand of GOABC stealing resident opportunity's from residents thru the Thomson allocation policy. as is apparent GOABC simply want to minimize and deflect... lets keep talking about the largest hijack of resident opportunity since 2005

600 PTA's. That's more than the allocation of Dec-10 changed the numbers and you are OK with that?

[brno375]

600 PTA's. That's more than the allocation of Dec-10 changed the numbers and you are OK with that?

Looks like resident hunters have a battle on two fronts.

[Gateholio]

600 PTA's. That's more than the allocation of Dec-10 changed the numbers and you are OK with that?

Deflect, deflect, deflect.....

GOABC should look at those numbers and see what a missed opportunity looks like.

But they remain in the dinosaur age and think stealing from residents will fix their business woes.

[bearvalley]

I don't think the overall PTA system is what came under scrutiny. Only a handfull of PTAs that had a commercial aspect raised a flag.

[Hunter of the Stone]

Deflect, deflect, deflect.....

GOABC should look at those numbers and see what a missed opportunity looks like.


But they remain in the dinosaur age and think stealing from residents will fix their business woes.

No Deflection. It is a matter of fact. Resident hunters applied for 600 PTA's last year. If half of them were successful on Moose that's 300 moose taken away from the resident. Math on this one is not that tough and the G/O's have nothing to do with this.

[Hunter of the Stone]

I don't think the overall PTA system is what came under scrutiny. Only a handfull of PTAs that had a commercial aspect raised a flag.

Creates a loop hole that can be used and abused by those that want to use it. I think most are honest and have stuck with family as it was intended.

[Fisher-Dude]

Write your MLA and express your disgust at their giving away your rights to feed your family.

GOABC and their shrinking members (haha!) gave the Christy Liberals over $100,000 to back door a deal to rip off resident hunters.

Very short-sighted of Christy and Gang to line their pockets today and lose out on another 4 years of MLA pension credits, don't you think?

[bearvalley]

No Deflection. It is a matter of fact. Resident hunters applied for 600 PTA's last year. If half of them were successful on Moose that's 300 moose taken away from the resident. Math on this one is not that tough and the G/O's have nothing to do with this.

But it's different. It's not stealing from the BC resident hunter. Man I have to give my head a shake. This entire issue is taking on union hall mentality.

[bigwhiteys]

Deflect, deflect, deflect.....

GOABC should look at those numbers and see what a missed opportunity looks like.

But they remain in the dinosaur age and think stealing from residents will fix their business woes.

Reflect, Reflect, Reflect.... The PTA system is a joke. 600 back-door deals from residents stealing animals from other residents. You want to hunt in BC? Pay up because as taxpayers that's what we all do (and it's one of your big arguments against non-residents - our economic contribution) BC = Bring Cash. If you want to bring a non-resident "friend" hunting he should be shooting something off your own tag not taking away an animal from your neighbour in your GOS. If you want to be that kind-hearted fellow that shares our animals for peanuts with your non-resident buddies it should cost you the tag.

I know of several first hand cases totally unrelated to anyone on this site where people have abused the PTA system for their own personal gain or "tradesies" hunts. If we're all against non-residents hunting here the system should be abolished. One less thing for the guides to bitch about, more opportunity for residents in their GOS.

[Daybreak]

No Deflection. It is a matter of fact. Resident hunters applied for 600 PTA's last year. If half of them were successful on Moose that's 300 moose taken away from the resident. Math on this one is not that tough and the G/O's have nothing to do with this.

Nonsense.

If 300 PTA's were successful that's 300 (or more) resident hunters that took part in a successful moose hunt and went home with a great experience to relate to their friends and family. Not to mention that the meat is shared amongst all so everyone wins.

Beats the dickens out of reporting to friends and family that there will be no moose trip period this year because the tag allotment heavily favours the GOABC and no one in our circle of friends or family received a tag.

GOABC has EVERYTHING to do with this.

[Ambush]

Resident hunters applied for 600 PTA's last year. If half of them were successful on Moose that's 300 moose taken away from the resident.

OK HotS:

First: NONE of the PTA's preempted someone else's LEH hunt.

Second: This is how you provide fiction as fact. There were NOT 600 PTA's given out for moose as you would have the un-informed speculate from your assertion. How many were for bears, that everyone feels there should be more of killed?

Third: You're a knowledgeable guy. Why can't you see that there is a big difference between " speaking plainly" and being offensively rude!

[brno375]

If you want to bring a non-resident "friend" hunting he should be shooting something off your own tag not taking away an animal from your neighbour in your GOS. If you want to be that kind-hearted fellow that shares our animals...with your non-resident buddies it should cost you the tag.



Agreed Carl

[Gateholio]

No Deflection. It is a matter of fact. Resident hunters applied for 600 PTA's last year. If half of them were successful on Moose that's 300 moose taken away from the resident. Math on this one is not that tough and the G/O's have nothing to do with this.

Except...that's not what happened. Deflect, deflect....

[Gateholio]

Reflect, Reflect, Reflect.... The PTA system is a joke. 600 back-door deals from residents stealing animals from other residents. You want to hunt in BC? Pay up because as taxpayers that's what we all do (and it's one of your big arguments against non-residents - our economic contribution) BC = Bring Cash. If you want to bring a non-resident "friend" hunting he should be shooting something off your own tag not taking away an animal from your neighbour in your GOS. If you want to be that kind-hearted fellow that shares our animals for peanuts with your non-resident buddies it should cost you the tag.

I know of several first hand cases totally unrelated to anyone on this site where people have abused the PTA system for their own personal gain or "tradesies" hunts. If we're all against non-residents hunting here the system should be abolished. One less thing for the guides to bitch about, more opportunity for residents in their GOS.

More deflection. If you want to put PTA's on a resident tag, go make a case for it with your MLA.

Fact is, most PTA's are done perfectly above board, no back room deals. No politician payoffs.

Unlike GOABC

The GOABC fan club would like nothing more than for us to go off to another subject. Stay focused, people.

[Hunter of the Stone]

OK HotS:

First: NONE of the PTA's preempted someone else's LEH hunt.

Second: This is how you provide fiction as fact. There were NOT 600 PTA's given out for moose as you would have the un-informed speculate from your assertion. How many were for bears, that everyone feels there should be more of killed?

Third: You're a knowledgeable guy. Why can't you see that there is a big difference between " speaking plainly" and being offensively rude!

I did not say all PTA's were for moose. It was an example in simple math hoping the likes of you could see the big picture. It's only offensive because it fails to fit your views.

The real honesty of the matter is like I said on this site 4 years ago on the same battle by the same people. KEEP IT UP AND KEEP LOOSING. No one feels sorry for you.

[Hunter of the Stone]

More deflection. If you want to put PTA's on a resident tag, go make a case for it with your MLA.

Fact is, most PTA's are done perfectly above board, no back room deals. No politician payoffs.

Unlike GOABC

The GOABC fan club would like nothing more than for us to go off to another subject. Stay focused, people.

its all part of the gates.

[Fisher-Dude]

I know of several first hand cases totally unrelated to anyone on this site where people have abused the PTA system for their own personal gain or "tradesies" hunts.


No you don't.

[brno375]

I was under the impression that a PTA was for family and that they hunted off the host's license and tags, and so had no issue with it as it did not affect residents nor G/O's.

But, if they get issued their own license & tags, then those numbers count as non-residents hunting in BC, and I would think that the Ministry would take into account these numbers when managing the resource. If the argument is it doesn't matter because they only hunt in places with a GOS, then why don't we open a non-resident LEH in those areas where the $ is earmarked for habitat enhancement? The winner would have the option of going it alone or hiring the G/O. Imagine how much $ that would generate and it would let Joe Average have an opportunity, and work at making the pie bigger. At least it would put the "rich foreigners taking all our animals" argument to bed, and work towards creating a bigger pie for all, right?

[Ferenc]

Supposed to be for family..... No cousins tho should ... start another thread on this. Black clouds looming !!

[GoatGuy]

The PTA issue is one which does not affect resident hunters as PTA are given out in areas where wildlife populations are GOS and there is plenty of wildlife available. PTA have not been issued for thinhorn sheep, nor bighorns in recent memory.

The allocation issue is for areas where wildlife is for the most part LEH, where there is not plenty of wildlife available for everyone and where resident hunters have been transferred to outfitters. The allocations issue is also about sheep.

This is a GOABC attempt to divert - nothing more.

[Hunter of the Stone]

No you don't.

as a matter of fact yes I do. The intent of the PTA's is to allow immediate family to hunt. I know of multiple cases where the hunter and host were not even related. Permit obtained by lies. Sorry FD but resident hunters lie to get what they want. SSS and BC Rams were not related to the Canada in the Rough Crew and that was also a commercial use of the permit.

[Knute]

They are required to be related if a non-resident alien.

If they are a Canadian citizen or lived in their sole and permanent residence in Canada for 12 months immediately prior to the hunt they do not have be related.

[Ambush]

I did not say all PTA's were for moose. It was an example in simple math hoping the likes of you could see the big picture.

The "likes of me"?? What am I like? Describe me in just three words.

And yes, you made a very deliberate attempt to bolster your position with a misleading suggestion. You used "300 moose" as opposed to 300 animals in a calculated effort mislead.

Less simple math and more an attempt to subvert real numbers.

[Walking Buffalo]

Reflect, Reflect, Reflect.... The PTA system is a joke. 600 back-door deals from residents stealing animals from other residents. You want to hunt in BC? Pay up because as taxpayers that's what we all do (and it's one of your big arguments against non-residents - our economic contribution) BC = Bring Cash. If you want to bring a non-resident "friend" hunting he should be shooting something off your own tag not taking away an animal from your neighbour in your GOS. If you want to be that kind-hearted fellow that shares our animals for peanuts with your non-resident buddies it should cost you the tag.

I know of several first hand cases totally unrelated to anyone on this site where people have abused the PTA system for their own personal gain or "tradesies" hunts. If we're all against non-residents hunting here the system should be abolished. One less thing for the guides to bitch about, more opportunity for residents in their GOS.



What a bunch of self serving bs....

I lived and hunted in BC for 15 years. No one in my family currently living in BC hunts.
So when I return to BC for a hunt it is a "back door deal"?

You are not only insulting me and others that use a PTA to hunt BC you are insulting the BC residents that we hunt with, including several that post here.


So you think NR should have to use a Resident's license...

Why not apply this idea to outfitter hunting too?

[Salty]

They don't have anything so they're grasping at straws as GoatGuy points out this PTA thing has nothing to do with the allocation issue they aren't allowed at all in the LEH hunts they're only approved for GOS areas if at all.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's the criteria for a PTA.
Seems people posting here have never read it before.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pasb/applications/process/accompany_hunt.html

The direct relative issue only pertains to non Canadians.

[Gateholio]

as a matter of fact yes I do. The intent of the PTA's is to allow immediate family to hunt. I know of multiple cases where the hunter and host were not even related. Permit obtained by lies. Sorry FD but resident hunters lie to get what they want. SSS and BC Rams were not related to the Canada in the Rough Crew and that was also a commercial use of the permit.

You are either lying, completely ignorant of the PTA system or you are being deliberately obtuse. You don't need to be related to take a Canadian on a PTA.

Your continue to make false accusations and personal attacks, despite a warning posted in this thread. As such, it's probably time for you to get booted from HBC again. Despite you being a great encouragement for BC hunters to stand against GOABC.

Stop LYING, Willy.

Stop trying to play Sherriff, Willy. If you think a crime was committed, report it to the COs. Obviously nothing illegal took place or you would have pounced years ago.

[Hunter of the Stone]

If you want me gone. Go ahead and delete my account. The same old posters on here doing the same old thing really isn't that appealing that I care. I can watch the comedy in other ways. So if it makes you happy just do it.

[f350ps]

I don't wanna see Willy get punted yet, he's the best anti GOABC motivator we have on this site, every time he opens his mouth stupid falls out! Keep talkin Willy! K

[Hunter of the Stone]

You are either lying, completely ignorant of the PTA system or you are being deliberately obtuse. You don't need to be related to take a Canadian on a PTA.

Your continue to make false accusations and personal attacks, despite a warning posted in this thread. As such, it's probably time for you to get booted from HBC again. Despite you being a great encouragement for BC hunters to stand against GOABC.

Stop LYING, Willy.

Stop trying to play Sherriff, Willy. If you think a crime was committed, report it to the COs. Obviously nothing illegal took place or you would have pounced years ago.

Making a lot of assumptions aren't you. For your information I have in the past turned people in. I know of a PTA that was issued twice in 4 years with an engine builder in North Carolina. (no relationship) Non Resident and left the country with an export permit. Brought in a damn fine river boat engine. I also know of others as I have said.

No I'm not trying to side track the allocation issue as I believe it's done and you can now do nothing about it. The formula is set. I do not see government going backwards on the issue. But I will wish you good luck.

[Fisher-Dude]

I know of several first hand cases totally unrelated to anyone on this site where people have abused the PTA system for their own personal gain or "tradesies" hunts.



No you don't.



as a matter of fact yes I do. The intent of the PTA's is to allow immediate family to hunt. I know of multiple cases where the hunter and host were not even related. Permit obtained by lies. Sorry FD but resident hunters lie to get what they want. SSS and BC Rams were not related to the Canada in the Rough Crew and that was also a commercial use of the permit.


How interesting. I replied to Carl, but Willy answered in the first person.

[Hunter of the Stone]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1582025]How interesting. I replied to Carl, but Willy answered in the first person.[/QUOTE

Carl knows of the same cases.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Basic Eligibility CriteriaThe following criteria must be met in order to proceed with an application for an Accompany to Hunt Permit:


Must be a BC resident, who is a Canadian citizen, or a permanent resident (landed immigrant) of Canada;
Must be 19 years of age or older; and must have:

Held a BC resident hunting licence AND a big game species licence for 3 of the 5 years immediately preceding application for this permit; OR,
Successfully completed the BC Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Education Program, and held a BC resident hunting AND a big game species licence for 2 of the 5 years immediately preceding application for this permit;


Must possess, or be qualified to possess, a BC resident hunting licence in good standing; and,
Must not have applied for or been issued an Accompany to Hunt Permit during the same licence year as the application.
A person is not eligible for a permit if another permit under section 70 (1) (a) of the Act has been issued for a different time period in the same licence year that applies to the non-resident or non-resident alien whom the person will accompany under the permit.
A person is not eligible for a permit under section 70(1) (a) of the Act if either the applicant or the non resident or non resident alien to whom the permit would apply, has been convicted of an offence:

Specified under section 84 (1) (a) of the Act, within the 5 year period immediately preceding the application for a permit; or,
Specified under (a) section 84 (1) (b) of the Act, or (b) the Firearm Act within the 3 year period immediately preceding the application for a permit.


Applicants may accompany either or both:


A non-resident - a person who is not a resident of British Columbia but who

is a Canadian Citizen, a permanent resident of Canada; or,
Has his/her sole or permanent residence in Canada and has resided in Canada for the 12 month period immediately prior to the date of this application.


A non-resident alien (a person who is neither a resident nor a non-resident) whose relationship to the applicant falls within the following categories:




Father;
Mother;
Spouse;



Brother;
Sister;
Father-in-law;



Son;
Daughter;
Mother-in-law;



Uncle;
Aunt;
Son-in-law;



Nephew;
Niece;
Daughter-in-law;



Grandson;
Granddaughter;
Brother-in-law;



Grandfather;
Grandmother;
Sister-in-law.



NOTE: “COUSIN” is NOT an accepted relationship





Restriction of hunt area:

Applicants are restricted to hunt within ONE Region with a choice of three Management Units (M.U.s) within that Region.

[Fisher-Dude]

Carl knows of the same cases.


Keep on diggin'.


http://www.blogography.com/photos42/DaveDig.gif

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Couple animals? Please elaborate.

Still no answer LBM???
Please respond.

SSS

[burger]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1582025]How interesting. I replied to Carl, but Willy answered in the first person.[/QUOTE

Carl knows of the same cases.


Have you informed the authorities?

[guest]

fairly consistent method of doing business for goabc, put out some accusations or innuendo's about situations, mislead people on the facts, then when challenged go silent...until they can figure out another way to STAB resident hunters in the back. Unfortunately most of us want to see the good in people, this is what GOABC preyed upon over the past seven years, ... the goodwill of residents of BC , finally they pushed to far and now are suffering the consequences. GOABC as an organization is broken, it's way of doing business has been exposed, until the outfitters of this province fix their own house, things will continue as normal within GOABC. Resident hunters have reached the breaking point and thus clubs throughout the province are engaging their members for a lengthy and PUBLIC fight over the thomson allocation policy. What i can say to GOABC is this.......UNLESS the Thomson allocation policy is changed.... this fight has just begun.

well said Deaddog ........ X 100

[bigwhiteys]

No you don't.

I've had my own hunting website up for about 8 or 9 years now. It's found in Google for all kinds of hunting related searches + BC. I have personally fielded requests (with offers of hunts to exchange) to be a hunter host for strangers from Canada, USA and Europe. Most of the requests were for Island Black Bears as I have lots of content surrounding that topic and it seems to be a popular non-resident hunt. Some of the requests are public comments on if you'd like to read them. Generally these people are unfamiliar with our laws here and I refer them to the GOABC or specific outfitters if they are asking about hunting in a particular region or species. I have not ever, nor do I plan to apply for a PTA but the system is definitely used as leverage for some.

[Fisher-Dude]

People asking if they can come hunting in BC certainly isn't illegal, nor abuse of the PTA.

[REMINGTON JIM]

fairly consistent method of doing business for goabc, put out some accusations or innuendo's about situations, mislead people on the facts, then when challenged go silent...until they can figure out another way to STAB resident hunters in the back. Unfortunately most of us want to see the good in people, this is what GOABC preyed upon over the past seven years, ... the goodwill of residents of BC , finally they pushed to far and now are suffering the consequences. GOABC as an organization is broken, it's way of doing business has been exposed, until the outfitters of this province fix their own house, things will continue as normal within GOABC. Resident hunters have reached the breaking point and thus clubs throughout the province are engaging their members for a lengthy and PUBLIC fight over the thomson allocation policy. What i can say to GOABC is this.......UNLESS the Thomson allocation policy is changed.... this fight has just begun.

YUP Well said there Jim :) You have a lot of BACKERS LETS GET IT ON ! cheers :wink: RJ

[REMINGTON JIM]

If you want me gone. Go ahead and delete my account. The same old posters on here doing the same old thing really isn't that appealing that I care. I can watch the comedy in other ways. So if it makes you happy just do it.

Oh and Now you want use to feel Sorry for you - oh Poor YOU ! F OFF ! good Riddance - JMO :wink:

Cheers :) RJ

[Hunter of the Stone]

Oh and Now you want use to feel Sorry for you - oh Poor YOU ! F OFF ! good Riddance - JMO :wink:

Cheers :) RJ

Actually its the other way around. I feel sorry for all you guys coming in after the fact and wanting to change things when you fail to have enough signatures on your position to even present a new idea. So again good luck. I will sit back and see what they ram down your throat next.

[Salty]

When you bought this stolen allocation they did tell you it has to go through the house to actually be legal Willy no? That's not done yet.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Actually its the other way around. I feel sorry for all you guys coming in after the fact and wanting to change things when you fail to have enough signatures on your position to even present a new idea. So again good luck. I will sit back and see what they ram down your throat next.

Ok Pal i will TRY and Suck it up and Thks again for all the Enlightening LIES too ! :wink: Cheers RJ

[guest]

Actually its the other way around. I feel sorry for all you guys coming in after the fact and wanting to change things when you fail to have enough signatures on your position to even present a new idea. So again good luck. I will sit back and see what they ram down your throat next.

WOW, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF ATTITUDE THAT RUNS THE GOABC TO WARDS BC RESIDENTS AND HUNTERS

and we we wonder why residents are fed up .........

WE STAND TOGETHER STRONGER THEN EVER ........

Stay strong RESIDENTS OF BC, this is the kind of attitude your loosing this provinces wildlife too.

KEEP LOOKING OUT FOR ALL BC RESIDENTS AND WILDLIFE, and your rights as a RESIDENT.

[Gateholio]

Making a lot of assumptions aren't you. For your information I have in the past turned people in. I know of a PTA that was issued twice in 4 years with an engine builder in North Carolina. (no relationship) Non Resident and left the country with an export permit. Brought in a damn fine river boat engine. I also know of others as I have said.

No I'm not trying to side track the allocation issue as I believe it's done and you can now do nothing about it. The formula is set. I do not see government going backwards on the issue. But I will wish you good luck.

And nothing to do with Bcrams or SSS

You are trying to deflect again, trying to imply those guys did something illegal. More bullshit from GOABC
i

[LBM]

Still no answer LBM???
Please respond.

SSS

Sorry SSS don't live on here like some others would rather be outside to see whats going on. Was referring to the goat hunt were one of the goats may of actually been shot by a resident which would mean one animal on a PTA.

[LBM]

Our opinions differ on this one, so not much point in going round and round about it IMO.

That being said, I dont mind your idea that you've posted, however how does it address any of the 'abuse' that you are directly talking about?
Many of them wont want to be giving up there tag for that takes there opportunity away to kill something so they would not apply.

[LBM]

Not sure how it does that....as under that system people still could pay for the ability and do the same type of abuse, only difference is the tag would be filled as a resident tag. Same issues that people are stating are big problems (paying, fake friends, deals, etc)

Then non-hunting family members start getting tags so their friends of friends can shoot critters, etc, etc...

Abuse happens regardless of the program. Hell, cancel the PTA all together and abuse will still happen, it will just be done in secrecy, etc. Its a sad reality that any system is going to have abuse.
Yes its a sad reality about how things are abused, even sadder that most don't care about it there more worried about the chance that they may lose an opportunity to kill something.

[Gateholio]

Yes its a sad reality about how things are abused, even sadder that most don't care about it there more worried about the chance that they may lose an opportunity to kill something.

No, it's just the opportunity to hunt.

More GOABC deflection

[Hunter of the Stone]

his c
WOW, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF ATTITUDE THAT RUNS THE GOABC TO WARDS BC RESIDENTS AND HUNTERS

and we we wonder why residents are fed up .........

WE STAND TOGETHER STRONGER THEN EVER ........

Stay strong RESIDENTS OF BC, this is the kind of attitude your loosing this provinces wildlife too.

KEEP LOOKING OUT FOR ALL BC RESIDENTS AND WILDLIFE, and your rights as a RESIDENT.

Why have I became a spokes person for GOABC? I am not a guide nor outfitter. I have not been a part of any guiding institutions, clubs or anything else since 1993. My interest is in the resident hunter immediately after, well being of wildlife. I have watched predators devastate small valleys. I've also watched Southern B.C. move north through the Caribou, Prince George, Chetwynd, Fort St John and now Pink Mountain and beyond. This can't continue much longer, at some point we need to get to management and harvest levels. So far all I've seen is fighting over the unknown. How many moose are there, argue and answer that first. Then we can actually have an allocation that is accurate.

[Hunter of the Stone]

And nothing to do with Bcrams or SSS

You are trying to deflect again, trying to imply those guys did something illegal. More bullshit from GOABC
i

Don't think I said they did anything against the law. I did imply and stand behind the fact. They tested the PTA to its limits at the expense of you and I, as resident hunters.

[300win]

I am new to GOABC politics, just wondering how many of the outfitters are from other countries and what is the laws governing it (ie. quotas... etc.) ????

[Daybreak]

You will find your answers here

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pasb/applications/process/game_guide.html#eligibility

[Daybreak]

The regulations state that GO's must be either a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada. No exceptions.


There are strong indications that some of the GO's in fact are owned and financed by foreigners (American, European) and use bogus phone numbers and addresses to appear as Canadian owned and operated. Some of the GO's also employ foreigners to come into Canada, work the hunting season and then return to their native countries. I am aware of Australians and Kiwis who work "our" hunting season in Canada and return to Australia and New Zealand in time to work their own hunting seasons.


Some of our members here have better details as to particular GO's who are affiliated with the GOABC and appear to be residing in the USA and funded by foreigners.


For you and other HBC members that are unsure of the details please do not hesitate to put questions forward. We want our members to have all the information and make educated and wise decisions on this matter. Once you feel you can form an opinion we ask that you give thought to the petitions and sign them as this will help to have the allotment rescinded.


Lastly, as many of us return to work today, talk to your co-workers and share the information. Make sure everyone is aware of the back room, under-handed deal that was struck and how lop-sided the allotment will become unless we speak loud and clear immediately.


Thanks for your interest and support.

[Daybreak]

his c

Why have I became a spokes person for GOABC? I am not a guide nor outfitter. I have not been a part of any guiding institutions, clubs or anything else since 1993. My interest is in the resident hunter immediately after, well being of wildlife. I have watched predators devastate small valleys. I've also watched Southern B.C. move north through the Caribou, Prince George, Chetwynd, Fort St John and now Pink Mountain and beyond. This can't continue much longer, at some point we need to get to management and harvest levels. So far all I've seen is fighting over the unknown. How many moose are there, argue and answer that first. Then we can actually have an allocation that is accurate.

Unknown? What are you talking about? Do you even know?

There is nothing unknown about the backroom deal the GOABC made to take a dis-proportional number of tags other than how they and the Liberals had the idea that they could to try to slip it past unsuspecting resident hunters over the Christmas season.

An allocation that is accurate? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Accurate to what? Accurate to who?

I think reasonable, in-line with other jurisdictions, and approved by the resident hunters would be better descriptors for the allocations.

The more I read the GOABC double speak the more I think they should sign off and let those of us that have an interest other than our pockets books straighten this mess out. The people speaking here for GOABC are clearly not capable of putting any thoughts forward that benefit anyone but themselves and refuse to acknowledge the position from which the resident hunters are speaking.

[Hunter of the Stone]

The regulations state that GO's must be either a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada. No exceptions.


Actually anyone can own the hunting country. The holder of the Guide Outfitter Certificate must meet the above. He / She must also be present in the area while there is hunters in the bush.


There are strong indications that some of the GO's in fact are owned and financed by foreigners (American, European) and use bogus phone numbers and addresses to appear as Canadian owned and operated. Some of the GO's also employ foreigners to come into Canada, work the hunting season and then return to their native countries. I am aware of Australians and Kiwis who work "our" hunting season in Canada and return to Australia and New Zealand in time to work their own hunting seasons.

Yes; some are owned by outside interest, hunting clubs etc., None to my knowledge use bogus phone numbers. It is not illegal for some one from the USA or else where to book hunts while home. There is in fact booking agents offering hunts world wide. Cabala's is one of the biggest out there.


Some of our members here have better details as to particular GO's who are affiliated with the GOABC and appear to be residing in the USA and funded by foreigners.


Anyone doing this does not hold the actual certificate. The branch actually monitors this very diligently. I know of a couple areas that faced major disciplinary actions in years gone by, because the holder of the certificate was not present and had pre signed declarations.



For you and other HBC members that are unsure of the details please do not hesitate to put questions forward. We want our members to have all the information and make educated and wise decisions on this matter. Once you feel you can form an opinion we ask that you give thought to the petitions and sign them as this will help to have the allotment rescinded.


It would be nice if when providing details. If they were correct so educated decisions could be made.


last, as many of us return to work today, talk to your co-workers and share the information. Make sure everyone is aware of the back room, under-handed deal that was struck and how lop-sided the allotment will become unless we speak loud and clear immediately.


Good Luck.

[brno375]

....at some point we need to get to management and harvest levels. So far all I've seen is fighting over the unknown. How many moose are there, argue and answer that first. Then we can actually have an allocation that is accurate.

Hi Willy

I believe the argument right now, at least for some Regions like 4, is that game populations were highly overestimated and allocations were awarded that were in fact too high and could not be supported. Therefore, with a smaller number of tags being allocated to the G/O, he is saying he needs more of the resident share to keep his business profitable. As I said before, I'm not anti G/O but in a free market economy businesses either make it or they don't, and part of the risk in the G/O business is fluctuating game populations. The tax paying resident hunters should not have to forego their share to keep the G/O in the black. Now, because the G/O allocation is smaller, so is the allocation to resident hunters, so there will be less tags and the odds for the LEH draws with increase. There may be some bitching and whining from some of them, but that will always occur.

Once the tug-of-war is over, how is the resource managed to increase game populations for all?

[Daybreak]

Put any spin on the regulations you like. They are all there in my link for people to examine and interpret as they are meant to be.

[Hunter of the Stone]

Unknown? What are you talking about? Do you even know?


Tell us how many moose there are. Then you tell me what the harvest number of these moose should be. Then we can take a look at what the natives require. Once that completed we can look at resident demands and utilization. After all that we can look at G/O's and predators. Maybe once the smoke all clears the numbers are something that can be worked with for a couple of years while we gather information and do things to make more moose. Numbers probably are really not that bad. That is why I see the Ministry carrying on exactly as announced.


There is nothing unknown about the backroom deal the GOABC made to take a dis-proportional number of tags other than how they and the Liberals had the idea that they could to try to slip it past unsuspecting resident hunters over the Christmas season.

You know nothing of back room dealings. Your BCWF reps were at the table and privy to all the information. The outcry started when your reps failed at the bargaining table. Have you ever asked them why. Back door dealings is not the answer.


An allocation that is accurate? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Accurate to what? Accurate to who?


An allocation that best uses our resource for the benefit of all British Columbians. Not just a few hunters.


I think reasonable, in-line with other jurisdictions, and approved by the resident hunters would be better descriptors for the allocations.


Other jurisdictions have nothing in common with B.C. We still have a decent amount of wild life. Most other jurisdictions implemented measures after their game populations were hurting more than ours.


The more I read the GOABC double speak the more I think they should sign off and let those of us that have an interest other than our pockets books straighten this mess out. The people speaking here for GOABC are clearly not capable of putting any thoughts forward that benefit anyone but themselves and refuse to acknowledge the position from which the resident hunters are speaking.

Like to see that (not) We would be out of game in 10 years.

[Hunter of the Stone]

Hi Willy

I believe the argument right now, at least for some Regions like 4, is that game populations were highly overestimated and allocations were awarded that were in fact too high and could not be supported. Therefore, with a smaller number of tags being allocated to the G/O, he is saying he needs more of the resident share to keep his business profitable. As I said before, I'm not anti G/O but in a free market economy businesses either make it or they don't, and part of the risk in the G/O business is fluctuating game populations. The tax paying resident hunters should not have to forego their share to keep the G/O in the black. Now, because the G/O allocation is smaller, so is the allocation to resident hunters, so there will be less tags and the odds for the LEH draws with increase. There may be some bitching and whining from some of them, but that will always occur.
square miles that a reside
Once the tug-of-war is over, how is the resource managed to increase game populations for all?

I also believe region 4 should be changed. However for the rest of the Province, if the resident demand is not being met, I see nothing wrong with it being given to The G/O. Remember there is a lot of country in B.C. I can think of thousands of square miles in the North that a resident is totally incapable of getting a thousand pounds of moose meat out to a truck. What is wrong with these trophy bulls being hunted by someone who has the equipment and means to hunt them. Much of what we see on here is over the accessible moose. Time to think a little broader.

[300win]

You will find your answers here

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pasb/applications/process/game_guide.html#eligibility
Thanks Daybreak: Wow, seems like my resident LEH troubles will continue. Why the question came to fruition is locations where I've try to hunt Island elk,moose etc. the GO's sounded foreign.... and I can't afford 20K for a hunt, how much off that money goes offshore?? I am all for an industry that hard working British Columbians are trying to make a living at not ones that seemed to be manipulated for rich foreigners man caves!!

[Hunter of the Stone]

Put any spin on the regulations you like. They are all there in my link for people to examine and interpret as they are meant to be.

I do know the regulations. I held the certificate once for a non-resident owner, while he got his citizenship.

[Daybreak]

So you now admit that the deal was made with insufficient information but GOABC is willing to live with it because according to your expertise the "numbers are PROBABLY not that bad". It's all good when it suits your needs isn't it?

To say that other jurisdictions have "nothing in common" with BC is absurd.

Hard to fathom that the GOABC is the saving grace in terms of game management for now and the future. I don't see them looking out for the resident hunter now or in the future.

[Daybreak]

Thanks Daybreak: Wow, seems like my resident LEH troubles will continue. Why the question came to fruition is locations where I've try to hunt Island elk,moose etc. the GO's sounded foreign.... and I can't afford 20K for a hunt, how much off that money goes offshore?? I am all for an industry that hard working British Columbians are trying to make a living at not ones that seemed to be manipulated for rich foreigners man caves!!

You are more than welcome. There are lot's of details about this issue to be read, you will find a good explanation on both of the petition pages. I have no interest in this specific matter other than trying to ensure that the resident hunter, whether it's me, my neighbour or the hunter on Vancouver Island, retain the current opportunity's to hunt. Resident hunters numbers are growing by leaps and bounds as the people of BC look for alternatives to feed their families. This is not the time to sacrifice opportunities to hunt.

[Fisher-Dude]

We all know Willy is technically incapable of using the quote feature to the extent shown in the above responses.

His son Carl runs a website and is technically capable.

Passwords are like condoms: change them often and don't share them with anyone.

[325 wsm]

as the people of BC look for alternatives to feed their families. This is not the time to sacrifice opportunities to hunt.


If the issue is the opportunity to feed their families I think you need to broaden your thinking. As a hunter you will pay dearly for every pound of meat you put in your freezer. As a guide you will be paid well and in most cases have a freezer full of meat at the end of the season. I managed to put 3 sheep and a hind quarter of moose into the freezer this year and made a good wage while doing so. The only real difference is I dont pull the trigger. Maybe a system where residents could allot their tag to a GO and guide the hunt would be beneficial for those who are having difficulties feeding their families.

[Daybreak]

I do know the regulations. I held the certificate once for a non-resident owner, while he got his citizenship.

Great. Just great.

Now you tell us that you are comfortable and accustomed to aiding foreign interests (non-residents) in influencing the management of BC's wildlife.

You have sold yourself and the resident hunters out.

[TARCHER]

Who shot the three sheep and why didn't they take the meat?

[Hunter of the Stone]

So you now admit that the deal was made with insufficient information but GOABC is willing to live with it because according to your expertise the "numbers are PROBABLY not that bad". It's all good when it suits your needs isn't it?

To say that other jurisdictions have "nothing in common" with BC is absurd.

Hard to fathom that the GOABC is the saving grace in terms of game management for now and the future. I don't see them looking out for the resident hunter now or in the future.

The BCWF / GOABC or whoever. Point your finger all you want, but remember your official recognized representatives were at the table, along with the ministry and GOABC.

Why would GOABC support the resident to the degree you ask. The GOABC or G/O will continue to try and enhance game populations. His ability to stay in business demands that he be a steward of the land. That is not rocket science.

[Hunter of the Stone]

We all know Willy is technically incapable of using the quote feature to the extent shown in the above responses.

His son Carl runs a website and is technically capable.

Passwords are like condoms: change them often and don't share them with anyone.

Sorry FD. But willy can use the quote feature and he can also hunt mature moose.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Sorry SSS don't live on here like some others would rather be outside to see whats going on. Was referring to the goat hunt were one of the goats " may " of actually been shot by a resident which would mean one animal on a PTA.

Hmmm ! MAY have being shot ? again more maybes ! So no FACTS just assumption and Whatever :sad: RJ

[Hunter of the Stone]

Great. Just great.

Now you tell us that you are comfortable and accustomed to aiding foreign interests (non-residents) in influencing the management of BC's wildlife.

You have sold yourself and the resident hunters out.

Business is business and to be honest with you, I really don't care about the resident hunter posting the same old nonsense on here day after day. That person fails to do anything constructive for hunting, other than trying to satisfy his own greed.

[burger]

Business is business and to be honest with you, I really don't care about the resident hunter posting the same old nonsense on here day after day. That person fails to do anything constructive for hunting, other than trying to satisfy his own greed.

Own greed??? I am pretty sure residents only motivator is the hunting part whereas GO hunt for money and meat as well. Money and greed makes people do horrible things. You have spent a large portion of your life selling animals for money but it was never greedy???? Holy shit balls I've heard it all. I have never made a penny hunting but instead paid thousands. Greedy?? Really? All residents on here want is better opportunities for all residents to hunt.

[Salty]

Business is business and to be honest with you, I really don't care about the resident hunter posting the same old nonsense on here day after day. That person fails to do anything constructive for hunting, other than trying to satisfy his own greed.

So you pay off the government to steal quota from resident hunters and resident hunters are trying to satisfy their own greed, got it. Keep posting Willy you're the best thing that ever happened to our cause it just keeps getting better.

[ACE]

Hunter of the Stone .......
Please keep posting here. Your arrogance and comtempt for the resident hunters of this province comes shining through, and is very inspirational for 'us' resident hunters in our dispute with the provincial government.

Selling yourself to the highest bidder combined with an air of entitlement is a winning combination in your book.
Have yourself a very prosperous 'New Year' .......

[brno375]

I also believe region 4 should be changed. However for the rest of the Province, if the resident demand is not being met, I see nothing wrong with it being given to The G/O. Remember there is a lot of country in B.C. I can think of thousands of square miles in the North that a resident is totally incapable of getting a thousand pounds of moose meat out to a truck. What is wrong with these trophy bulls being hunted by someone who has the equipment and means to hunt them. Much of what we see on here is over the accessible moose. Time to think a little broader.

How about this as a solution:

1. Legislate that all monies raised from the sale of licences, tags, LEH, fines, etc get reinvested back into the resource instead of general revenue. With habitat enhancement, etc we can all work towards making the pie bigger.

2. The cost of a hunting licence and tags are increased $10 each, and a LEH application is increased to $10. Remember, the money goes back into the resource and out of the total $ that resident hunters spend on hunting each year, this increase isn't going to break the bank.

3. The allocation gets legislated at 85/15 for moose, elk, bison, mule deer, whitetail, black bear, and 70/30 for sheep, goat, grizzly bear, caribou. There is NO sliding scale where residents have to kill more animals to increase or keep their share, and G/O's don't have to make access difficult to increase or keep their share. If each user group wants more, work to increase the game populations.

4. In areas where resident allocation is under-utilized, a LEH is set up for non-resident Canadians and non-resident aliens. The winners get to come hunt self guided or employ the services of the G/O. Each LEH entry is $10, they can buy as many as they want, and they pay the non-resident prices for their license and tags. Remember, all this money is reinvested into the resource.

5. Every individual, either resident or non-resident, must pay for a hunting license and applicable tags if successfully drawn for a LEH authorization.

6. PTA's hunt off the license and tags of their resident host. If they want their own license, they can enter the LEH draw for non-residents.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.

8. Implement a points system for LEH authorizations.

There is no free lunch; you can't have something for nothing.

Is this thinking broad enough?

[bridger]

One way to raise several millions of dollars of direct revenue for wildlife management in BC. Do away with the compulsory guide law and put non residents on leh. Sell the tags directly to the hunter instead of giving them to the outfitter for nothing.

[Ambush]

I'm good with most of that. Leave off #'s 7 and 8 and I'm good with all of it..

[bearvalley]

How about this as a solution:

1. Legislate that all monies raised from the sale of licences, tags, LEH, fines, etc get reinvested back into the resource instead of general revenue. With habitat enhancement, etc we can all work towards making the pie bigger.

2. The cost of a hunting licence and tags are increased $10 each, and a LEH application is increased to $10. Remember, the money goes back into the resource and out of the total $ that resident hunters spend on hunting each year, this increase isn't going to break the bank.

3. The allocation gets legislated at 85/15 for moose, elk, bison, mule deer, whitetail, black bear, and 70/30 for sheep, goat, grizzly bear, caribou. There is NO sliding scale where residents have to kill more animals to increase or keep their share, and G/O's don't have to make access difficult to increase or keep their share. If each user group wants more, work to increase the game populations.

4. In areas where resident allocation is under-utilized, a LEH is set up for non-resident Canadians and non-resident aliens. The winners get to come hunt self guided or employ the services of the G/O. Each LEH entry is $10, they can buy as many as they want, and they pay the non-resident prices for their license and tags. Remember, all this money is reinvested into the resource.

5. Every individual, either resident or non-resident, must pay for a hunting license and applicable tags if successfully drawn for a LEH authorization.

6. PTA's hunt off the license and tags of their resident host. If they want their own license, they can enter the LEH draw for non-residents.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.

8. Implement a points system for LEH authorizations.

There is no free lunch; you can't have something for nothing.

Is this thinking broad enough?

One of the more reasonable posts to date. At least you're thinking.

[Ambush]

One way to raise several millions of dollars of direct revenue for wildlife management in BC. Do away with the compulsory guide law and put non residents on leh. Sell the tags directly to the hunter instead of giving them to the outfitter for nothing.

You mean like when I draw for Wyoming or Alberta? Sounds too fair to be acceptable.

[Fred1]

How about this as a solution:

1. Legislate that all monies raised from the sale of licences, tags, LEH, fines, etc get reinvested back into the resource instead of general revenue. With habitat enhancement, etc we can all work towards making the pie bigger.

2. The cost of a hunting licence and tags are increased $10 each, and a LEH application is increased to $10. Remember, the money goes back into the resource and out of the total $ that resident hunters spend on hunting each year, this increase isn't going to break the bank.

3. The allocation gets legislated at 85/15 for moose, elk, bison, mule deer, whitetail, black bear, and 70/30 for sheep, goat, grizzly bear, caribou. There is NO sliding scale where residents have to kill more animals to increase or keep their share, and G/O's don't have to make access difficult to increase or keep their share. If each user group wants more, work to increase the game populations.

4. In areas where resident allocation is under-utilized, a LEH is set up for non-resident Canadians and non-resident aliens. The winners get to come hunt self guided or employ the services of the G/O. Each LEH entry is $10, they can buy as many as they want, and they pay the non-resident prices for their license and tags. Remember, all this money is reinvested into the resource.

5. Every individual, either resident or non-resident, must pay for a hunting license and applicable tags if successfully drawn for a LEH authorization.

6. PTA's hunt off the license and tags of their resident host. If they want their own license, they can enter the LEH draw for non-residents.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.

8. Implement a points system for LEH authorizations.

There is no free lunch; you can't have something for nothing.

Is this thinking broad enough?

Yup one of the better posts on this thread. I like the whole thing!

[bearvalley]

One way to raise several millions of dollars of direct revenue for wildlife management in BC. Do away with the compulsory guide law and put non residents on leh. Sell the tags directly to the hunter instead of giving them to the outfitter for nothing.

I didn't know outfitters got "tags for nothing". Last I knew the non resident hunter bought them. Just like you and me only he paid more.

[Gateholio]

Don't agree with everything but Brno is thinking outside the box. Won't get GOABC on board with that though. :)

[Hunter of the Stone]

How about this as a solution:

1. Legislate that all monies raised from the sale of licences, tags, LEH, fines, etc get reinvested back into the resource instead of general revenue. With habitat enhancement, etc we can all work towards making the pie bigger.

2. The cost of a hunting licence and tags are increased $10 each, and a LEH application is increased to $10. Remember, the money goes back into the resource and out of the total $ that resident hunters spend on hunting each year, this increase isn't going to break the bank.

3. The allocation gets legislated at 85/15 for moose, elk, bison, mule deer, whitetail, black bear, and 70/30 for sheep, goat, grizzly bear, caribou. There is NO sliding scale where residents have to kill more animals to increase or keep their share, and G/O's don't have to make access difficult to increase or keep their share. If each user group wants more, work to increase the game populations.

4. In areas where resident allocation is under-utilized, a LEH is set up for non-resident Canadians and non-resident aliens. The winners get to come hunt self guided or employ the services of the G/O. Each LEH entry is $10, they can buy as many as they want, and they pay the non-resident prices for their license and tags. Remember, all this money is reinvested into the resource.

5. Every individual, either resident or non-resident, must pay for a hunting license and applicable tags if successfully drawn for a LEH authorization.

6. PTA's hunt off the license and tags of their resident host. If they want their own license, they can enter the LEH draw for non-residents.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.

8. Implement a points system for LEH authorizations.

There is no free lunch; you can't have something for nothing.

Is this thinking broad enough?

Best post on this site since Dec-10th. I agree with most of your points in principle. Need a little refining though on a couple.

[GoatGuy]

How about this as a solution:

1. Legislate that all monies raised from the sale of licences, tags, LEH, fines, etc get reinvested back into the resource instead of general revenue. With habitat enhancement, etc we can all work towards making the pie bigger.

2. The cost of a hunting licence and tags are increased $10 each, and a LEH application is increased to $10. Remember, the money goes back into the resource and out of the total $ that resident hunters spend on hunting each year, this increase isn't going to break the bank.

3. The allocation gets legislated at 85/15 for moose, elk, bison, mule deer, whitetail, black bear, and 70/30 for sheep, goat, grizzly bear, caribou. There is NO sliding scale where residents have to kill more animals to increase or keep their share, and G/O's don't have to make access difficult to increase or keep their share. If each user group wants more, work to increase the game populations.

4. In areas where resident allocation is under-utilized, a LEH is set up for non-resident Canadians and non-resident aliens. The winners get to come hunt self guided or employ the services of the G/O. Each LEH entry is $10, they can buy as many as they want, and they pay the non-resident prices for their license and tags. Remember, all this money is reinvested into the resource.

5. Every individual, either resident or non-resident, must pay for a hunting license and applicable tags if successfully drawn for a LEH authorization.

6. PTA's hunt off the license and tags of their resident host. If they want their own license, they can enter the LEH draw for non-residents.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.

8. Implement a points system for LEH authorizations.

There is no free lunch; you can't have something for nothing.

Is this thinking broad enough?

You are right in the ball park of where we were at.

[Everett]

One way to raise several millions of dollars of direct revenue for wildlife management in BC. Do away with the compulsory guide law and put non residents on leh. Sell the tags directly to the hunter instead of giving them to the outfitter for nothing.

We have a winner and while were at just abolish the Guide outfitting industry. Why a experienced hunter from Alberta needs to employ a guide to be BC is a joke and to top it off who probably is a foreigner.

[brno375]

yup, 1 thru three would be non starters for gov't and GOABC, the list looks good for the most part.. that said the gov't has been saying for years they would put license revenues into wildlife..with no results... GOABC wants 75-25 and 60-40....period. And they are close to getting it. More phone calls, emails,letters and "talks" with MLA's are the only thing that will correct this mistake, caused by GOABC and it's way of doing business.

I believe if resident hunters put forward ideas to resolve this issue in their letters and talks with their MLA's, as a group they will be better received. Think of it as a presentation: argue your case, present the numbers, and propose a solution. Even if the people in the government don't make a decision that day, the ideas put forth will be in their head and they will think about them. A letter that strictly screams "Hey A-hole, that's not fair, and if you don't change it, I will not vote for you again!" does nothing to put this issue to bed.

[ACE]

Good post brno375 .......
Agree with all of it.
Thank you for your post and ideas.

[brno375]

We have a winner and while were at just abolish the Guide outfitting industry. Why a experienced hunter from Alberta needs to employ a guide to be BC is a joke and to top it off who probably is a foreigner.

I believe there is a place for the G/O's in this province, but if you want to abolish them, be prepared to pay for them. How much do you think your license and tag is going to cost after doing that? Those who use the resource support the costs of managing it.

[325 wsm]

brno375 you are one of the few on this thread who is actually thinking instead of just bitching. If you could come up with something more refined, start a proposal and petition it on here, residents would look a whole lot better. As far as non res hunters without a guide as others have suggested that would just cause another shit storm. Imagine all the ….whoops I shot the wrong animal,good thing I dont live here, lets get out of here quick scenarios …. theres already enough uneducated hunters running around.

[325 wsm]

Maybe you could abolish Non res hunters and the govt could charge residents what the non residents are paying now. $600 for a sheep and $1000 for a grizz tag and $200 to the HCTF. this may recuperate some the lost foreign revenue.

[Seeker]

Lastly, as many of us return to work today, talk to your co-workers and share the information. Make sure everyone is aware of the back room, under-handed deal that was struck and how lop-sided the allotment will become unless we speak loud and clear immediately.

Just did, 2 more names from non-hunters who support our position, thanks for the encouragement .......Willy!

[brno375]

Maybe you could abolish Non res hunters and the govt could charge residents what the non residents are paying now. $600 for a sheep and $1000 for a grizz tag and $200 to the HCTF. this may recuperate some the lost foreign revenue.

See post #238

[REMINGTON JIM]

We have a winner and while were at just abolish the Guide outfitting industry. Why a experienced hunter from Alberta needs to employ a guide to be BC is a joke and to top it off who probably is a foreigner.

Boy Everett - you are gonna be the most POPULAR fellow on here with the GOABC ! :lol: RJ

[brno375]

brno375 you are one of the few on this thread who is actually thinking instead of just bitching. If you could come up with something more refined, start a proposal and petition it on here, residents would look a whole lot better. As far as non res hunters without a guide as others have suggested that would just cause another shit storm. Imagine all the ….whoops I shot the wrong animal,good thing I dont live here, lets get out of here quick scenarios …. theres already enough uneducated hunters running around.

Thanks 325 WSM. I believe that the odds would be obscenely high for the non-resident draw, and although some will probably decide to have a go at it on their own, I think that there will be those that hire the G/O in one form or another for their once in a lifetime draw. Will there be the occasional illegal animal harvested? Probably, but that even occurs now. I'm sure the Ministry takes this into account when they manage the resource.

[358mag]

[QUOTE=Everett;1582401]We have a winner and while were at just abolish the Guide outfitting industry. Why a experienced hunter from Alberta needs to employ a guide to be BC is a joke and to top it off who probably is a foreigner.[/QUO
So Everett how would you control the flocks of experienced hunters from Alberta and the rest of Canada that would just love to come out to wonderful BC and hunt ??
Think it just might get a little too busy for most BC resident hunters ....just saying sorry don't have any stats to prove my statement ,just a gut feeling .

[GoatGuy]

brno375 you are one of the few on this thread who is actually thinking instead of just bitching. If you could come up with something more refined, start a proposal and petition it on here, residents would look a whole lot better. As far as non res hunters without a guide as others have suggested that would just cause another shit storm. Imagine all the ….whoops I shot the wrong animal,good thing I dont live here, lets get out of here quick scenarios …. theres already enough uneducated hunters running around.

1) The split suggested is pretty close to what the BCWF resolution stated.

2) Most of North America does not require a guide and does not give 'exclusive rights'. Non-residents are given the choice to hire an outfitter or not. No, that is not an anti-outfiter statement, it's just a fact.

At the end of the day what we have learned is once you give someone a quota they will fight to avoid being cut - and rightly so as it effects their bottom line. The fundamental problem comes down to these issues of success factors and regional averaging.

There are a million ways to generate more revenue for the resource. BC's non-resident and resident license fees are generally low when you compare them to the rest of North America.

[Fisher-Dude]

So Everett how would you control the flocks of experienced hunters from Alberta and the rest of Canada that would just love to come out to wonderful BC and hunt ??
Think it just might get a little too busy for most BC resident hunters ....just saying sorry don't have any stats to prove my statement ,just a gut feeling .


It would be an LEH. We could control the number of hunters and harvest easily, the same way so many US states and some Cdn provinces do in similar non-resident programs.

If some NR gets drawn, he can choose to hire a guide, or he can choose to get up REALLY early and try to follow my pickup on a greasy road that he doesn't know. ;)

[brno375]

Best post on this site since Dec-10th. I agree with most of your points in principle. Need a little refining though on a couple.

Thanks Willy. Which couple?

[358mag]

Thanks Willy. Which couple?

#7 make it a $500.00 Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags.
#8 not sure if BCWF would be on board with the LEH point system unless they have changed there position , they have always pushed for the lottery type draw but what ever .

[Fisher-Dude]

Re: #8. It doesn't matter what type of draw system is used. The only way your odds will get better is if there is an increase in AAH. Period.

Seeing as how the Thomson Gift gives away a significant portion of residents' AAH, your odds are worse. A different draw system will not change that whatsoever.

Re: #7 comments by 358: It's already illegal to apply for LEH or any other permit under the Wildlife Act if a person has outstanding WLA fines.

[brno375]

I'm good with most of that. Leave off #'s 7 and 8 and I'm good with all of it..

Thanks Ambush. The reason I put #7 on the list was to aid in getting a true count on the number of animals harvested every year so the Ministry can better manage the resource. One would think that resident hunters would want to give them this information and not be forced by imposing a monetary penalty for non-compliance. The other option is compulsory inspection for everything but I think filling out a form would be a better choice. I put #8 on the list to try to make the LEH system a little more balanced for those resident hunters that put in for the same low odds draw every year. Eventually their number HAS to come up, and so everyone gets a turn.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Ambush. The reason I put #7 on the list was to aid in getting a true count on the number of animals harvested every year so the Ministry can better manage the resource. One would think that resident hunters would want to give them this information and not be forced by imposing a monetary penalty for non-compliance. The other option is compulsory inspection for everything but I think filling out a form would be a better choice. I put #8 on the list to try to make the LEH system a little more balanced for those resident hunters that put in for the same low odds draw every year. Eventually their number HAS to come up, and so everyone gets a turn.

If you have a points based lottery system you can give people a point for completing harvest data.

Carrot vs stick.

[Fisher-Dude]

The best balance in an LEH system comes from a totally random draw. You know, like the one we use now. If there's nothing to draw because wealthy foreigners are shooting it all, it doesn't really matter.

I'm good with increasing questionnaire compliance. It's mandatory in some states.

[358mag]

It would be an LEH. We could control the number of hunters and harvest easily, the same way so many US states and some Cdn provinces do in similar non-resident programs.

If some NR gets drawn, he can choose to hire a guide, or he can choose to get up REALLY early and try to follow my pickup on a greasy road that he doesn't know. ;)
So would there be a cut back on the amount of LEH tags to reduce the amount of "rich non resident hunters" or would it fall into the 85/15 -70/30 formula ?
Sure the northern resident hunters would just love to see truck loads of out prov. hunters towing riverboats,quads,argos etc hitting the Alaska highway every fall Hell I know the greasy road you drive on and I still cant keep up:roll:

[358mag]

Re: #8. It doesn't matter what type of draw system is used. The only way your odds will get better is if there is an increase in AAH. Period.

Seeing as how the Thomson Gift gives away a significant portion of residents' AAH, your odds are worse. A different draw system will not change that whatsoever.

Re: #7 comments by 358: It's already illegal to apply for LEH or any other permit under the Wildlife Act if a person has outstanding WLA fines.

7. Completion of the Ministry harvest questionnaire is mandatory, with a $100 fine for those who do not fill it out. Until the fine is paid, the individual can not enter for a LEH, nor buy a license/tags. This money gets reinvested into the resource.
Just change it to a $500.00 fine keep the rest in there .

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This is what someone told me the other day so I'm not sure if it is true. Please correct me if its not accurate.

In alberta the guide outfitters are guaranteed their tags. If they have 8 tags for antelope and there is a die-off they still get to keep their tags and the residents take the cuts. Makes for simple business math and no need to lobby anyone for more tags. You buy an outfit with x number of tags that's what it will always have. No over-inflated quotas pushing up the purchase price
Of course, we are dealing with percentages a lot different than here in BC. Max is 10%. Not sure if they arrive at their # of tags. Maybe an average population over the last decade??

[brno375]

The best balance in an LEH system comes from a totally random draw. You know, like the one we use now. If there's nothing to draw because wealthy foreigners are shooting it all, it doesn't really matter.

I'm good with increasing questionnaire compliance. It's mandatory in some states.

Pat, I was thinking the following: if a resident hunter puts in for a moose draw in his back yard, where the odds are 15:1, as long as the supply and demand stay the same, he will be rewarded with a LEH authorization once in those 15 years, as after each unsuccessful year, he gets closer to the top. If after 5 years that hunter decides to put in somewhere else, he starts all over again. Think of it as an enhanced odds system. Maybe that would be a better way for me to describe it what I am thinking.

As for vilifying wealthy foreigners, I just don't get it. Good for them for being successful and good for them for hunting. They are part of our fraternity.

[Fisher-Dude]

I was thinking the following: if a resident hunter puts in for a moose draw in his back yard, where the odds are 15:1, as long as the supply and demand stay the same, he will be rewarded with a LEH authorization once in those 15 years, as after each unsuccessful year, he gets closer to the top. If after 5 years that hunter decides to put in somewhere else, he starts all over again. Think of it as an enhanced odds system. Maybe that would be a better way for me to describe it what I am thinking.

Doesn't matter. You should be drawn every 15 years in any system. Your odds of being drawn only get better when there are more tags given out.


As for vilifying wealthy foreigners, I just don't get it. Good for them for being successful and good for them for hunting. They are part of our fraternity.

They are NOT part of our fraternity. Our fraternity hunts for different reasons, and does the conservation work that keeps sustainable herds on the mountain. Foreigners do not.

[Fisher-Dude]

So would there be a cut back on the amount of LEH tags to reduce the amount of "rich non resident hunters" or would it fall into the 85/15 -70/30 formula ?
Sure the northern resident hunters would just love to see truck loads of out prov. hunters towing riverboats,quads,argos etc hitting the Alaska highway every fall Hell I know the greasy road you drive on and I still cant keep up:roll:

It would be whatever the GO allocation is. Should be no more than 5% if there are only 4500 NRs compared to 102,000 Rs, as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't affect Rs' allocation, it would replace the GO allocation.

They apply for an NR LEH, if successful they can load up the truck and hit the Alaska Hwy or Carmi Road or hire a GO. Everybody happy, happy, happy.

[Everett]

[QUOTE=Everett;1582401]We have a winner and while were at just abolish the Guide outfitting industry. Why a experienced hunter from Alberta needs to employ a guide to be BC is a joke and to top it off who probably is a foreigner.[/QUO
So Everett how would you control the flocks of experienced hunters from Alberta and the rest of Canada that would just love to come out to wonderful BC and hunt ??
Think it just might get a little too busy for most BC resident hunters ....just saying sorry don't have any stats to prove my statement ,just a gut feeling .

Same way we control residents the CO service. We put Canadian citizen on LEH %10 of all tags. Than you charge them $50 per LEH application plus the automatically have there card billed for tags if they draw. We end up with more tags for residents and the government ends up with more money and we kill the GO industry. Its a win win for everyone except a few guides and there fat ass American clients.