Proposed regulation changes in Region 6 (Copper, Yakoun, Kitsumkalum, Zymacord)

[Samsquantch]

FYI People the guiding industry has proposed a few regulation changes for the Skeena region including bait bans for the yakoun, zymacord and kitsumkalum rivers. As well as a fly only for the entire copper (Zymoetz) river. Speak up now. If these changes go through there is no going back.
I myself both fly fish and gear fish and I am seriously sick of the elitist attitude shown by the guiding industry and fly fisherman in general.
Please review and speak up before unwarranted and restrictive changes are made with no justification.

http://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/angling

[steel_ram]

Is the FF only, bait ban changes being put in place as a necessary conservation measure to reduce the effectiveness of fishers, therefore reducing the catch to decrease fish mortality, then it's a good thing. Doubt it's being put in place to limit fishing to "special" groups.

[Samsquantch]

from what I know the changes are being proposed by the guiding industry who feel that gear fishermen on the copper and bait guys on the kalum degrade their clients experience
(. If there is a conservation concern in any of the streams mentioned then fish that cant be harvested should not be allowed to be angled for by any methods. in my opinion.

[steel_ram]

If there is a conservation concern in any of the streams mentioned then fish that cant be harvested should not be allowed to be angled for by any methods. in my opinion.

That would be the next step, but I'd rather have an opportunity to fish, even if it is just low odds fly fishing, rather than no opportunity at all. Kind of like bowhunting and LEH.



If it is just to appease the guides, then screw them!

[guest]

No different then the GOABC stuff re hunting ...... Screw every one else attitude possibly ? Bottom line if its all about saving the fish, its a good thing ..... if its to keep some from enjoying the river with their style of fishing Hummmm sounds .... fishy ??

[40incher]

The guide sluts will never give up 'til they have it all.

It's never been about conservation ... fly only, C&R only, only the spey rods should fish ...

Shut 'er all down!

[Eastbranch]

These changes were proposed by local resident anglers to give some very sensitive steelhead populations more protection to aid recovery. FWIW, the ask was also to allow bait for anglers under 16 (ministry did not include this). Easy to vilify guides, but these changes were proposed by locals.

[SPEYMAN]

The rivers in question are native fish rivers. No hatchery clones. These regulations will allow angling and reduce the catch ratio. Had these type of regulations been imposed years ago on rivers, there would have been many more rivers with native fish rather than hatchery clones.

Having fished most of the rivers mentioned I have some knowledge of the catch ratio using bait and gear compared to artificial and fly. There must be a reason some guides fight to keep a bait fishery on the Stamp. Here we have the whole fishing community saying "stop the bait and spoon fishery".

[elknut]

From what I hear ...They should ban ..Intruder flys..They are very deadly and are fish killers..Just one mans opinion..

[Sofa King]

so, is it just going to become the norm on here now to whine about every little change that is made to regulations?
why on earth does someone need to use bait to fish in the first place?
how about put some effort in and learn a skill.
bait is for lazy people.

[Whonnock Boy]

Do you have anything good, or informative to say, or are you just here to whine about the whiners? Seriously, nothing but garbage spews from your posts, more than usual as of late.


so, is it just going to become the norm on here now to whine about every little change that is made to regulations?
why on earth does someone need to use bait to fish in the first place?
how about put some effort in and learn a skill.
bait is for lazy people.

[coach]

why on earth does someone need to use bait to fish in the first place?
how about put some effort in and learn a skill.
bait is for lazy people.

Some people believe in managing fishermen, others prefer to manage fish.. We went through this BS on the Thompson a few years ago. How has that worked out?

[coach]

Do you have anything good, or informative to say, or are you just here to whine about the whiners? Seriously, nothing but garbage spews from your posts, more than usual as of late.

Go easy on him, WB.. Nobody posts better tracks and shit pictures than Duallie! :razz:

[Samsquantch]

prove the kalum run is very sensitive and in need of recovery before restricting resident opportunity. the zymacord has likely never seen a large run of steelhead and pressure on that system likely reflects that. The copper is getting more pressure every year. Lets reduce the number of rod days given to guides during the QWS fiasco to curb over pressure and repeat captures there. Cant comment on the yakoun as I don't know the fishery over there at all.

[tinhorse]

All I know is when i am up there and fishing on the skeena and tributaries we catch 2:1 using the spey rod as opposed to gear. Casting a nice sinking line and letting it float through the riffles that the steelhead and other fish are sitting in and dragging the line through their mouths like the bottom bouncers do for sockeye on the Fraser is quite effective. There is already a non resident ban on fishing the upper parts of the skeena on weekends is there not (this was obviously not put forward by the guide outfitters). I think it is a bunch of oldtimers that want the resources to themselves and restrict others so they dont want to fish or can't afford to. You can get a decent gear rod and reel for $200. A spey rod,reel, line and flys will run you north of $1000. Surely would keep people off the waters.

Its like saying you can only hunt with a sako and zeiss scope, no savage/busnell combos allowed..... as well from what I have seen the Kalum has strong fish runs every year, why limit people on it. Look at the tseax, you can use bait on that river and it is a fractions the size of the kalum and has a run a fraction the size as well. Yet year after year it has excellent returns with huge fish. maybe they should just have a 1 fish per month quota like they do on the nass...

[adriaticum]

Fly fishermen constantly claim their superiority in catching fish, yet bait/gear fishermen always get shut out to supposedly preserve fish stocks.
Something doesn't compute there.
Gear restrictions have never worked and if you want to conserve a river either shut it down and ban retention.

[steel_ram]

Fly fishermen constantly claim their superiority in catching fish, yet bait/gear fishermen always get shut out to supposedly preserve fish stocks.
Something doesn't compute there.
Gear restrictions have never worked and if you want to conserve a river either shut it down and ban retention.

Huh? Since when have fly fishermen claimed to be superior at catching fish? It would be a pretty rare situation, especially with steelhead and salmon, that fly fishers aren't seriously disadvantaged. By choice.

Gear restrictions, that reduce the number of fish caught, and re-caught obviously work.

[gerrygoat]

Actually I have heard them say that too. Like with the hunting guides we need a lot less fishing guides, if there is a conservation concern then shut down the season instead of the catch and release crowd killing more fish. Some of these guys claim to catch 100 steelhead in a year, if they wound 1 in 10 that means there are 10 fish that die from this individual. Like with hunting someone that wants to catch a few fish to eat for his family is much more noble than a guy who hurts a lot of fish through catch and molest.

[Eastbranch]

Let's not re-open the AMP discussion folks, angling opportunities for residents up there has been greatly improved since the weekend closures and resident only times were implemented. Anyone who thinks spey fishers are flossing anything except sockeye, or catching 2-3x as many fish as bait fishers is totally out to lunch.

[steel_ram]

Actually I have heard them say that too. Like with the hunting guides we need a lot less fishing guides, if there is a conservation concern then shut down the season instead of the catch and release crowd killing more fish. Some of these guys claim to catch 100 steelhead in a year, if they wound 1 in 10 that means there are 10 fish that die from this individual. Like with hunting someone that wants to catch a few fish to eat for his family is much more noble than a guy who hurts a lot of fish through catch and molest.

And if the guy unwilling to try to catch them on the fly, or can't, instead was allowed to easily triple that catch then there'd be three times the mortality. But instead jumps up and down to get the limited opportunity (including his) closed down. That's smart! Even the most "noble" fisher or hunter loses one, that will die once in a wile. Some mortality is expected in fish AND game management, and if it is too high, then yes they will shut it down.

[adriaticum]

Huh? Since when have fly fishermen claimed to be superior at catching fish? It would be a pretty rare situation, especially with steelhead and salmon, that fly fishers aren't seriously disadvantaged. By choice.

Gear restrictions, that reduce the number of fish caught, and re-caught obviously work.


Maybe you live in some other world? :)

Gear restrictions work by the way of restricting me from fishing while allowing you to fish.
Not by the means of gear effectiveness.
Of course if you restrict 80% of the population from fishing that you will affect the populations.
The question is, is it fair to allow you to fish and not allow me to fish.
That's the question.
You might say it is, I might say it isn't and that's where the war starts.

[horshur]

so, is it just going to become the norm on here now to whine about every little change that is made to regulations?
why on earth does someone need to use bait to fish in the first place?
how about put some effort in and learn a skill.
bait is for lazy people.

good for you!!....

[adriaticum]

Actually I have heard them say that too. Like with the hunting guides we need a lot less fishing guides, if there is a conservation concern then shut down the season instead of the catch and release crowd killing more fish. Some of these guys claim to catch 100 steelhead in a year, if they wound 1 in 10 that means there are 10 fish that die from this individual. Like with hunting someone that wants to catch a few fish to eat for his family is much more noble than a guy who hurts a lot of fish through catch and molest.



Here is the difference.
Most fishing guides do catch and release.
It would be a similar issue if hunting guides guided photographers instead of hunters.
But I agree with you.
I am of opinion that if someone's ability to make money, affects my ability to eat, I will go for their head.

[gerrygoat]

I used to catch and release more now I just fish a lot less and make sure I don't over fish an area or species. Hardly fish for steelhead anymore because of the mortality thing.

[BRvalley]

I used to catch and release more now I just fish a lot less and make sure I don't over fish an area or species. Hardly fish for steelhead anymore because of the mortality thing.

so what's the mortality rate for steelhead?

[steel_ram]

Maybe you live in some other world? :)

Gear restrictions work by the way of restricting me from fishing while allowing you to fish.
Not by the means of gear effectiveness.
Of course if you restrict 80% of the population from fishing that you will affect the populations.
The question is, is it fair to allow you to fish and not allow me to fish.
That's the question.
You might say it is, I might say it isn't and that's where the war starts.

Absolutely not and wrong. Where in the regs does it say any one group can fish and other not. Are you suggesting when a person decides to take the fly rod instead of his gear rod he suddenly becomes a different person? That is rediculous! You can fly fish as well as I can. I'm not rich nor particularly talented. I do like a challenge, am patient and not lazy. If you choose not to pursue the available opportunity that's your problem.

[gerrygoat]

so what's the mortality rate for steelhead?

I have heard 1 in 10, would be interesting to see an independent study on that.

[BRvalley]

I personally don't agree with the proposed reg changes, but always interesting to hear numbers on mortality rates, lots of studies and from what i gather mostly around 5-10% on average, up to 20% in poor conditions....from what I've read gear and hook type (barbed vs barbless vs treble) has much less to do with survival than 1. water temps and 2. handling and time out of water

had the chance to speak with a biologist on the kitimat, his fish never left the water

[steel_ram]

From my experience I would argue that bait fishing has a higher mortality than other methods, but apparently I'm wrong. I think we would all agree that poor handling, ie. removing fish from the water, hero shots, overplaying etc. increase mortality. Definitely releasing all fish increases their chances for survival. (You'd think that would be obvious.)

Unrelated but on topic: They want to close the Kokish river above the new "Run of River," Hydro project to study what effect it has on migrating steelhead. Get's the big "Duh" from me. Shouldn't they have figured this before diverting the stream bed. If significant damage is realized, what are they gong to do about it? Nothing I bet.

[Confused]

Tackle restrictions under the guise of "conservation" are completely rediculous for the most part. These regs are all social issues in disguise of conservation.

[tubby]

Confused has it completely right!! None of these systems have shitty returns. This is about Spey /guides guys wanting more.
nothing to do with conservation. Just like the thompson almost all of the Spey community except for a few that don't care about there egos and Instagram/ facebook pics , know that it is other factors hurting those fish. Funny how a good percentage of the Spey guys on the thomp are sturgeon guides that buy roe off of comm/native fisheries that kill off the fish they are SO worried about.

If a system is in trouble shut it down. Don't Limit something just for people's personal agendas and gains.

[tubby]

What does more damage to steelhead, guides and there clients taking a shitload of hero shots at the expense of the fish just so the guide can get a big tip or the guys fishing gear?

[Ride Red]

Interesting Read by Louis Cahill;

Steelheaders are generally pretty serious about catch-and-release, but it’s likely that many are mortally wounding fish without ever knowing it.There are few species of fish as vulnerable as wild steelhead. These fish are beset on all sides by threats both natural and man-made. With their numbers dwindling, it’s safe to say, every steelhead counts. It’s vital that those of us who fish for them practice the best catch-and-release practices.
However, common landing practices can kill fish without the angler ever knowing. A team of biologists studying steelhead in British Columbia discovered this problem, quite by accident. These scientists were tagging steelhead with GPS trackers. They determined that the least intrusive way to capture the fish was, well, the same way we do it. With a fly rod. They landed the fish, tagged them with the GPS device and released them. When they went to their computer to track the fish’s progress they discovered something alarming.
Within two hours many of the fish they had tagged, and released in good health, were dead. They collected the fish and performed autopsies to determine what had gone wrong. In every case the cause of death was head trauma. It turns out that ‘steelhead’ is a misnomer. The fish’s head is, in fact, its most vulnerable spot.
When landing the fish the researchers had played them into shallow water where they would be easy to tail. As the fish came into the shallows they were on longer, fully submerged. Without the resistance of the water surrounding them, their powerful thrashing was able to generate momentum that is not possible underwater. The flopping fish simply hit their heads on a rock.
The fish appeared fine when released, but their injured brains began to swell and soon they were dead. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Fish have evolved in an environment where hitting their head on anything with enough force to cause damage is almost impossible. Their brains lack the natural protection enjoyed by terrestrial species.
Luckily, this unfortunate outcome is easily avoided. The angler has a couple of good options. Landing fish by hand in knee deep water is a little tougher but much safer for the fish. You can grab the leader to control the fish long enough to tail it. After a fish or two it will feel very natural. When possible, it’s best to use a good catch-and-release net. This is safest for the fish and easiest for the angler. A net helps you seal the deal while the fish is still fresh and requires little reviving.
Always control your fish once he’s landed. Keep his gills wet and support his head in case he makes a sudden attempt to escape. Keeping him, dorsal fin up, will keep his range of motion side-to-side, making it harder for him to injure himself. When possible keep him in deeper water. Never beach a fish when landing him and never lay him on the bank for a photo. It’s just not worth it.
Wild steelhead are a precious resource. Those of us who come to the river looking for them must lead by example and do our best to to be good stewards of these remarkable fish. Their future is, literally in our hands.

[Ride Red]

More info;

http://www2.humboldt.edu/cuca/documents/publications/Taylor&BarnhartSteelhead.pdf

[Ride Red]

Another good read;

HOW MANY WILD STEELHEAD DID YOU KILL THIS YEAR?

By Jeff Mishler

Let’s just say for the purpose of this piece that you’re a catch and release angler. You release all wild steelhead, salmon and trout because, well, it’s the law on most rivers here in the pacific northwest and more importantly, an angler concerned about the future of the sport, mostly likely, has come to realize that the future of any fishery lies in the preservation of genetic diversity which can only be ensured through abundant wild adult escapement. Releasing wild fish keeps the gene pool rolling along its natural way. And while some anglers are good at catching fish and others are not, it’s very probable that some anglers catch a lot of wild fish because they target them specifically; for whatever reason, they ignore the put and take fishery available to sport fishermen in most states and choose to pursue wild fish presumably using tackle and techniques that minimize mortality of the resource.

No angler of good intentions wants to admit that their catch and release routine, routinely kills wild fish. But these routines are often old habits passed down the family line and they can be hard to break, even if they negatively impact the resource we think we are protecting.

Consider the following scenario:

It’s early March. You and a buddy are drift fishing for winter steelhead on one of Oregon’s many coastal rivers. You hook six steelhead, land four and released all of them because most of the fish in the system at this time of year are in fact wild. Three of the steelhead you landed, you hooked drifting a pearl/pink corkie with a single hook and one of the steelhead was hooked after you threaded a sandshrimp under the corkie rig. Let’s say you are fishing from a drift boat. The water is high and off-color making it difficult to find a place to step to shore. So, for every fish hooked, you had to fight them longer than usual because the swift current made it difficult to bring the fish alongside the boat. Each fish hung in the current downstream from the bow until it was exhausted---In fact, that is when you lost the other two. You were certain they were ready, but they made one last turn away from the boat, towards the shore and the direction of pull on the line changed. The hook pulled free and those two got away---But not the other four. After three attempts, your buddy slides a net under the steelhead and hauls it into the boat. It flops around a bit but you eventually unhooked the size 1 bait hook from the corner of its mouth. You hold the steelhead up for a picture or two and then slide the fish over the side. You hold it upright for a moment because that’s what they say you should do to revive a tired fish, but it kicks out of your hand and swims off. Let’s just say the four steelhead you landed responded similarly. From your perspective, it would be reasonable to assume that all of the steelhead survived after release because they did in fact swim off on their own.

Could you believe that the opposite might be true? More than likely, all four steelhead died from a long-term, delayed mortality, a truth difficult for the angler to confirm because in most instances, death occurs hours, if not days later.

In the previous scenario, you, the angler, made specific choices that directly affected the overall mortality of catch and release fishing. What we do once the hook is set has more bearing on a wild fish’s survival than the gear we choose. Whether we fly fish only or pinch the barbs on our favorite plugs, equipment has little statistical impact on the overall percentage of mortality associated with catch and release---It is widely promoted that a fish hooked in the corner of the mouth or outside the mouth experiences a 3% chance of mortality if it is landed promptly, kept in the water and released quickly. The use of barbed or barbless hooks doesn’t seem to change that percentage significantly. Mortality is determined greatly by our behavior, or habits.

Dr. Bruce Tufts is a professor of biology at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. He has studied the physiological effects of catch and release fishing since the late 1980’s. The findings from his research have helped shape catch and release regulations throughout North America.

According to Tufts, factors such as time out of water and length of fight combine to determine a released fish’s chance of survival. In his study, “Physiological Effect of Brief Air Exposure in Exhaustively Exercised Rainbow Trout: Implications for “Catch and Release” Fisheries”, Tufts studied the effect of time out of water periods of zero, 30 and 60 seconds for rainbow trout after exhaustive exercise. In 57-degree water, after 12 hours of recovery time, the control group-- fish that were held in captivity but not exercised--experienced no mortality. The group not exposed to air immediately after exercise experienced 12% mortality. The group exposed to air for 30 seconds after exercise experienced 38% mortality, and the group exposed to air for 60 seconds after exercise experience 72% mortality. 7 out of 10 trout died after 12 hours when exposed to air for 60 seconds.

Tufts concluded, “…the brief period of air exposure which occurs in many “catch and release” fisheries is a significant additional stress which may ultimately influence whether a released fish survives”. According to Tufts’ study, any exposure to air significantly decreases a salmon, trout, or steelhead’s chance for survival.

In the above fishing scenario, how long would it take you to clear the net, unhook the fish, take the pictures and then put the fish back into the river? It is very, very difficult do it in less than a minute. I’ve timed numerous anglers trying to do exactly what I have described and in most instances, it takes two minutes or more once the fish is brought on board. So one might conclude that if 7 out of 10 rainbow trout die after an air exposure of 60 seconds, then 3 of the 4 steelhead netted and brought into the drift boat, died within 12 hrs after release.

Tufts states in a 2004, In-Fisherman, article, “When you remove a fish from water the secondary lamellae in the gills collapse, inhibiting gas exchange”. Tufts and I use similar analogies when trying to explain how detrimental it is to hold a fish out of water for long periods of time after landing it. Imagine running 100 meters as fast as you can and when you cross the finish line someone grabs you my the back of the head and forces it underwater for a minute. What’s your chance of mortality? Salmon, trout and steelhead breathe air about as well as we breath water.

Tufts states in an article published in, Atlantic Salmon Journal, Spring 2001, “There’s No Excuse Not to Stop Killing Salmon” that, “the studies have documented (delayed mortality) in salmon and other species…it is not something that occurs immediately after the period of exhaustive exercise…therefore not something that would be apparent to an angler releasing a fish. Delayed mortality can occur in fish that appear absolutely normal at the start of the recovery period.”

60 seconds out of the water and you’ve killed 7 out of 10 fish. This is somber news.

Additionally, Tufts does not take into account the cumulative affects of removing a fish’s protective slime by netting and bringing the fish on board, increasing the chance of bacterial growth on the skin after release and the accompanying increased stress levels. Nor does he address the mortality impacts of hook placement and the increased blood loss from the most vital organ, the gills, when a fish is hooked inside the mouth on a delicate gill rake. Some states have made laws requiring anglers to use single barbless hooks and to keep fish in the water at all times if it is to be released to reduce the chance for post release mortality.

The whether the capture of wild salmon and steelhead is intentional or accidental, catch and release fishing causes mortality at a rate higher than most well intended anglers could ever imagine. It is possible that the angler who chooses to target wild fish, kills more wild steelhead, salmon or trout than the equally effective angler who chooses his angling opportunities according to the run timing of specific hatchery returns and kills every legal hatchery fish he or she catches; the determinant being the combination of variables the angler has no control over, and a few that one does. If I catch 20 wild steelhead in four days of fishing and handle them carelessly, it is possible that I might have killed 14 of them, six more than the eight fish, four day limit of the angler whacking and stacking hatchery fish. One has to ask, whose behavior is better for the resource?

[Ride Red]

So, considering the previous angling scenario, the high water day from the drift boat, what could you have done differently to increase the chance of survival for those four wild fish you released?
---First, wear waders if you can. Hip boots are fine. An angler has to get down into the water to properly release a fish. If the water is in fact too high and there is no accessible shore, pull anchor and find calmer water to land the fish.
---Use a net with a rubber or soft mesh. Hard nylon is too hard on the fish. If you can get to shore, slide the fish into the net but leave it in the water. Don’t reef up on the handle and haul it out onto shore. If you net the fish from the boat, don’t bring the fish into the boat. Leave it hanging over the side.
---The fish must stay in the water. Make sure its head is submerged. Get down on your knees, wait for the fish to calm down, and reach in carefully to remove the hook with a pair of pliers.
---Don’t rip the hook out of the mouth. Gently back it out, the direction it went in. Even with a barb, if the hook is lodged in the corner of the mouth or lips, the hook should come out easily with a soft tug.
---If the hook is buried in a gill rake, down in the gullet or buried in the tongue, don’t remove it. The fish’s chances of survival with such a hook placement are reduced as it is. Removing a barbed hook from these areas will certainly kill it. Clip the leader, leaving at least 18 inches trailing outside the mouth and do your best to revive the fish. The old myth that the hook will dissolve over time can be questioned when one uses stainless steel or chrome hooks designed not to rust. (How many shiny hooks have you found hanging in the shoreline brush long after the mono has rotted away?)
---When you are ready to release the fish, gently hold it upright in the current. Don’t move it back and forth. This drives water and sediments under the gill plate from the wrong direction inhibiting the all important gas exchange, effectively smothering the fish.
---When the fish seems ready to go, hold on to it a little longer. Its fins should be erect and its movements positive. Most fish will bolt from the hand out of fear when they start to get their senses back but haven’t recovered enough to hold themselves upright in the current. If allowed to swim away, they often roll over and die under a rock somewhere downstream. This is the “not apparent” part of the delayed mortality Tufts refers to. Yeah they swim off, but some of them die.
---Don’t touch the gills. The angler who puts his fingers into the gills of a fish they plan to release, for whatever reason, has probably killed that fish by damaging the delicate lamellae needed for gas exchange (breathing).
If you want to take a picture of the fish hold it gently at the wrist of the tail while supporting the girth under the pectoral fins. Keep the head in the water while the photographer focuses and sets the exposure. Only when the photographer is ready, when they say so, should you lift the fish out of the water an inch or two. Take the picture and immediately place it back into the water. Reset and repeat if you like. Don’t stand up and hold it out. Stay low. If you drop the fish, it’s close to the water and won’t be injured. How many times have you seen someone drop a squirming fish onto the rocks or into the bottom of the boat? All bad. I can always tell if a fish has been out of the water for a long period of time by the amount of water running off its body. Sadly, most fish are bone dry when pics are taken.

Unfortunately, ego and pride often overtake common sense in those exciting moments when a big wild fish works us over. Taking a fish out of the water is purely a convenience for the angler or guide. Yeah, we want that baby. Gotta get a picture of that bad boy. But, if you fish with the intent of releasing the wild ones, why wouldn’t you, in good conscience, do everything you can to ensure that the trophy you plan to release, realizes its purpose? Go buy the right net. Pinch your barbs. Get out of the boat if you can. Don’t use divers and bait during the wild run. (Gut and gill hooked fish experience 68-80% mortality depending on which study you use) Keep the fish in the water at all times. Fight the fish quickly.

The wild ones are amazing creatures and should be released unharmed to spawn and provide future angling opportunities. It’s our responsibility as stewards and primary users of the resource to make sure that happens. I know that some habits die hard and the processes we’ve used for years are often second nature, but taking additional care when releasing wild fish is just plain ole’ common sense that doesn’t compromise the experience, so why not try. We will all benefit from your effort.

[steel_ram]

Good info. I am appalled at some's handling of fish. How many times have I see anglers backing up the beach hauling a flopping salmon up the beach, spend time on the hero shot and then liberate the fish, watching it slowly swim back out in the flow. I suspect the dead salmon that accumulate in the deep slow pools immediately below popular fishing spots are not post spawn mortality. Especially chums in October.

One of the first things I was taught, was to make sure there was always water between the fish and the rocks. Even an inch of water can make a huge difference.

[303savage]

I think the problem with bait fishing is the # of fish that swallow the bait and get hooked in the gills etc. Increasing the mortality.
The flip side is that kids like to catch fish and bait is more effective for a beginner.

[303savage]

I think the problem with bait fishing is the # of fish that swallow the bait and get hooked in the gills etc. Increasing the mortality.
The flip side is that kids like to catch fish and bait is more effective for a beginner.
If the kids lose intrest it will be just us old farts fishing

[Eastbranch]

I dunno what the OP was doing (intentionally misleading people?). But anyway just to clarify, neither the zymacord or copper rivers had any changes proposed, the comment period is closed now anyway. See here for the proposed reg 6 changes: http://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/angling?region=18&mu=All

As posted earlier, FWIW, allowing bait for youth anglers was recommended by the resident anglers that proposed the bait closure (for the yakoun....the kalum summer run population is heavily overexploited and the bait ban extension has been warranted for a while now). Here is a screengrab showing pretty clearly a continued decline in the quality of the yakoun fishery which warrants closing it to bait which will hopefully reduce capture rates and increase spawning success. We know the steelhead questionnaire is an overestimate because there's a pretty strong bias toward over-reporting steelhead capture rates, but it's still good for monitoring trends.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Tako870/yakgrab_zpsb3b67114.jpg

Generally speaking, winter run steelhead are more sensitive to the sub-lethal impacts of repeated capture (taking direct mortality (hooking & landing) right out of the equation) than summer run fish are (lower egg production, increased pre and post spawn mortality resulting in fewer repeat spawners, etc). Bait has the highest capture rate of all angling methods, as well as the highest direct mortality rates, therefore it proposes the highest risk to the population.

The ministry must balance risks to the population with the stated goal of also allowing a recreational fishery. Removing bait from the fishery significantly reduces risk to the population while still providing for a fishery. Those that don't want to fish without bait are only being eliminated from the fishery by their own disinterest in picking up other tackle.

[BRvalley]

I'm not overly familiar with these rivers, been fishing them 3 years now...where did that graph come from? I'd like to read more on the study

what happened in the 80's?

[shoot to kill]

I dunno what the OP was doing (intentionally misleading people?). But anyway just to clarify, neither the zymacord or copper rivers had any changes proposed, the comment period is closed now anyway. See here for the proposed reg 6 changes: http://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/angling?region=18&mu=All

As posted earlier, FWIW, allowing bait for youth anglers was recommended by the resident anglers that proposed the bait closure (for the yakoun....the kalum summer run population is heavily overexploited and the bait ban extension has been warranted for a while now). Here is a screengrab showing pretty clearly a continued decline in the quality of the yakoun fishery which warrants closing it to bait which will hopefully reduce capture rates and increase spawning success. We know the steelhead questionnaire is an overestimate because there's a pretty strong bias toward over-reporting steelhead capture rates, but it's still good for monitoring trends.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Tako870/yakgrab_zpsb3b67114.jpg

Generally speaking, winter run steelhead are more sensitive to the sub-lethal impacts of repeated capture (taking direct mortality (hooking & landing) right out of the equation) than summer run fish are (lower egg production, increased pre and post spawn mortality resulting in fewer repeat spawners, etc). Bait has the highest capture rate of all angling methods, as well as the highest direct mortality rates, therefore it proposes the highest risk to the population.

The ministry must balance risks to the population with the stated goal of also allowing a recreational fishery. Removing bait from the fishery significantly reduces risk to the population while still providing for a fishery. Those that don't want to fish without bait are only being eliminated from the fishery by their own disinterest in picking up other tackle.

show me a study that says mortality with bait is higher.....to be honest, large spoon hooks hurt fish the most in my experience...Ive caught hundreds of steelhead on bait and have deep hooked maybe 2-3 and they werent bleeding. On the other hand my first summer steelhead on a dry was gut hooked and bled a lot.

[steel_ram]

From what I understand, mortality is higher with bait fishing simply because it is a more effective way to catch fish, therefore more fish being caught, handled, released. Apparently, per fish landed, all methods are about equal. My personal experience is that fish will take bait much further back in the mouth and are more likely to hit arteries.

[Eastbranch]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[steel_ram]

show me a study that says mortality with bait is higher.....to be honest, large spoon hooks hurt fish the most in my experience...Ive caught hundreds of steelhead on bait and have deep hooked maybe 2-3 and they werent bleeding. On the other hand my first summer steelhead on a dry was gut hooked and bled a lot.

I caught maybe 100 fish on bait. Not many, because I preferred other methods when they worked. I would guess 1 in 20 fish caught the hook in the rakers with bait and sadly swam away bleeding. Never saw blood with a fly, spoon or float fishing, which is how the majority were caught. I did catch a cutthroat this year that took the fly in the gills. I doubt a fish hooked in the guts would bleed at all, unless one went neanderthal removing it.

[BRvalley]

I'm a data ninja. I get things other people can't and I'm not alllowed to tell how. Ha. The graph is just compiled from the steelhead questionnaire that gets mailed out each year to every angler who bought a steelhead stamp. There were more fish in the 80s...

feel free to PM...

why were there more fish in the 80's? what caused the increase in early 80's? what caused the decline for the past decade?

what you're proposing, as I understand it right now, is that increased mortality rates from bait fishing is the only environmental factor behind the recent decline in reported catches? I'm a big picture guy, open minded, will always read the data and form my own opinion, but I just don't buy that....if a river is hurting, shut it down, lots of other angler opportunity in the region

[Eastbranch]

Anglers are the only aspect in the control of the BC ministry. The rest is up to the ocean and DFO. The jury is in on mortality. Bait causes more of it. Fly doesn't. People who disagree had lots of opportunity to comment on policy that would guide these type of regulatory decisions.

My personal suspicion is that, like every other fishery in the 80s, population numbers were boosted by a lot of things; good ocean survival, river fetilization, habitat enhancement, reduced logging rates, better env protection laws, etc. The 70s and 80s saw a lot of money and time put into steelhead and salmon recovery efforts. It worked. Then we voted in some bad governments and it stopped.

[tubby]

Typical fly mentality from arctic red. Nothing to do with conservation just personal gains. Look at the bigger picture of the more harmful impacts to the steelhead. I really don't care if they bring bait bans in, but why waste energy on such a small part of what's actually causing the steelhead numbers to decline. If these people actually cared about the fish they would be putting pressure onto other factors.

[steel_ram]

Typical fly mentality from arctic red. Nothing to do with conservation just personal gains. Look at the bigger picture of the more harmful impacts to the steelhead. I really don't care if they bring bait bans in, but why waste energy on such a small part of what's actually causing the steelhead numbers to decline. If these people actually cared about the fish they would be putting pressure onto other factors.

You think misc. wild fishing societies are not looking at the "more harmful impacts"? Do you think they should just ignore the "small parts"? Steelhead are dying the death of a thousand cuts. There isn't just one big factor. Wouldn't it be nice if things were just that simple.

[Eastbranch]

What the question should really be is why a large group of anglers ignore and try to discredit facts and study results they asked and paid for. If bait anglers really cared about steelhead populations they would stop ignoring facts and come to terms with the risk the method poses to population sustainability. If someone came to me with dozens of conclusive reports and said fly hooks have a 25% mortality rate I'd quit tomorrow. Because I actually care about the fish. Bait anglers only seem to want to complain about perceived persecution and elitism from other sectors.

[303savage]

I think how the fish is handled has a lot to do with mortality too. There are some real A.Holes out there when it comes to handling a fish.
I've seen some people boot the fish out of the water upon the shore, let flop around for a couple min. jerk the hook and boot them back in.

[tubby]

Way more of an issue than what bait or gear does.

[steel_ram]

Way more of an issue than what bait or gear does.

Yup! Both need to be addressed. A few rivers in the states don't let you remove a fish from the water . . . . or use bait.

[6.5x55]

So here we are fighting over the scraps of whats left after years of environmental degradation and pollution. Where is the will to address the serious problems so that a person can go to a river ,catch a fish, take it home and eat it? The blood sport of catch and release fishing ,with the issues raised in this thread make hunting so much more humane.

[Confused]

FYI People the guiding industry has proposed a few regulation changes for the Skeena region including bait bans for the yakoun, zymacord and kitsumkalum rivers. As well as a fly only for the entire copper (Zymoetz) river. Speak up now. If these changes go through there is no going back.
I myself both fly fish and gear fish and I am seriously sick of the elitist attitude shown by the guiding industry and fly fisherman in general.
Please review and speak up before unwarranted and restrictive changes are made with no justification.

http://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/angling


I cant find the link to the Zymoetz proposal you alude too. Found the others. Am I missing something, or just blind.

Thanks,

[steel_ram]

I guess it's the whole mentality that one should be entitled to bring something home to eat that has to change. Very few people need to hunt, fish, gather in this province, in this day "to feed their families." It's cheaper and guaranteed if you go to the grocery store.

[Eastbranch]

Steelhead have never been and will never be abundant enough to harvest. Their biology doesn't allow for it. Harvest fisheries spanning the globe and the first 4/5ths of the 20th century reduced populations to fractions of historical abundance. The evidence stands on its own. The BC steelhead management framework outlines goals for BC steelhead mgmt, clearly and for the right reasons. Bait fisheries act as a significant detriment to wild steelhead recovery. It's not an arbitrary or loosely considered decision.

Confused, you aren't. There was no zymoetz regulation change proposal.

[shoot to kill]

I haven't seen a scientific study yet of mortality rates of steelhead on all techniques. Personal experience of myself and fishing buddies who are all good rods is there are very few bleeders on bait, we're talking hundreds of steelhead each to hand and and less than a dozen deeply hooked fish. Anyone who has seriously fished spoons for steelhead can tell you the spoon hooks do a lot of damage. My fly fishing caught steelhead numbers are much less as I havent devoted the same amount of time but in my experience the deep hooked ratio is similar to gear caught fish. Dry flies in my experience results in most of the deeper hooked fish. Trailer hooks on long intruders can be a problem as well and there should be a restriction on length.

[Brez]

so, is it just going to become the norm on here now to whine about every little change that is made to regulations?
why on earth does someone need to use bait to fish in the first place?
how about put some effort in and learn a skill.
bait is for lazy people.
A 3 or 4 or 5 year old has trouble fly-fishing. Why limit their opportunities. We need to recruit more and your idea hurts.

[SPEYMAN]

The OP was incorrect. There is no regulation proposal for fly fishing only. The proposal is a "bait" restriction on certain rivers. Years ago there was no bait allowed on Vancouver Island rivers. The cutthroat and steelhead fishing was world class.

[steel_ram]

A 3 or 4 or 5 year old has trouble fly-fishing. Why limit their opportunities. We need to recruit more and your idea hurts.

I'm in my 50's and still have difficulties with level winds and center pins some days. Fly fishing is about as rudimentary as it gets.

[Brez]

I'm in my 50's and still have difficulties with level winds and center pins some days. Fly fishing is about as rudimentary as it gets.
Good for you. I'm in my 50's and when 6 or 7, I learned on a short fiberglass rod and fly reel, but was taught and used bait (worms). We all have our knacks and strengths. I'm not talking about tackle, I'm talking bait or flies. What get a young child a fish easier in most situations? I can take a kid to the river and have them cast a chunk of bait out a few feet and let it sink to the bottom, or sit on a dock and dangle bait, with a heck of a good chance that they will hook a fish, and get hooked on fishing, or have them flog the air, water, and anything around and have them frustrated and put off. They can learn the "finer" points later. How many Squaw-fish (or whatever they may be called now), walleye, bass, sun-fish, white-fish have you caught on your flies?
Oh, and same goes for trolling hardware for kokanee and trout on our lakes and river here.

[steel_ram]

Good for you. I'm in my 50's and when 6 or 7, I learned on a short fiberglass rod and fly reel, but was taught and used bait (worms). We all have our knacks and strengths. I'm not talking about tackle, I'm talking bait or flies. What get a young child a fish easier in most situations? I can take a kid to the river and have them cast a chunk of bait out a few feet and let it sink to the bottom, or sit on a dock and dangle bait, with a heck of a good chance that they will hook a fish, and get hooked on fishing, or have them flog the air, water, and anything around and have them frustrated and put off. They can learn the "finer" points later. How many Squaw-fish (or whatever they may be called now), walleye, bass, sun-fish, white-fish have you caught on your flies?
Oh, and same goes for trolling hardware for kokanee and trout on our lakes and river here.

I haven't caught a walleye on a fly. These new reg. changes are not effecting the types of fishing most little kids are involved with. Ironically, the proposed changes are help make sure these kids have fish to fish for in 20 years.

[coach]

Ironically, the proposed changes are help make sure these kids have fish to fish for in 20 years.

Changing regulations as a "feel good" move will have very little chance of ensuring those fish will be there 20 years from now. Habitat work and changes to commercial fishing practices are far more important steps.

[SPEYMAN]

The way our Government works we have little chance of changing commercial fishing, logging or resource retraction methods in the near future. We can put regulations in place to reduce the catch rate on what we have left. We have curtailed the harvest all we can do now is control the numbers.

Would be a good idea to stop all harvesting of all fish until we really have a handle on what and how much allows for a sustained harvest.

I remember Dr. Dick Beamish telling us at a meeting that the DFO knew exactly how many fish were going to return to every river in B.C., as soon as they got there. The Feds and the Province have been playing "russian roulette" with the fishery from day one.