Mule Deer Rut

[Liveforthehunt]

Well it's that time of the year again or is it lol? Every year I have guys telling me that the mule deer rut occurs after whiteys and I'd rather not argue so I just continue on my path to each there own opinion. So I'm asking you guys ...just for an opinion I know what I have seen over the years and the animals I shoot during certain times of the year but I want to hear other sides of the story... I have seen a very very strong second mule deer rut still going strong December 10th. I'm bringing this up because I came across a solid rub line today with some good sized trees freshly rubbed within the last couple days connecting within the next week hopefully :D cheers!

[IronNoggin]

Always been my impression that the Muley's "Prom" goes off first.
But then what the hell would I know with only 50 years of in-field observations under my belt? http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/Idunno.gif

Cheers,
Nog

[.264winmag]

In my experience everything up until nov.10 is mostly pre-rut activity. That includes Blacktails, mulies and whitetails. I have seen immature bucks act like it's on full bore but this is my experience with mature bucks. Also have seen rutting activity into early dec. The best is yet to come:)

[Everett]

Well the Muley rut in the EK started today and no sign of the WT rut.

[Sofa King]

mulies have been making rubs for a couple weeks already.
and the whities I saw a couple days ago had bark shavings all over their antlers.

[.264winmag]

Seen bucks rub in oct plenty, but does still unreceptive till nov.10?

[dana]

The peak of the muley rut typically occurs between Nov 15th-25th. The odd doe comes in early and a lot of times they get missed which causes them to come in again around Dec 8th-13th. The young bucks always are eager and showing signs of rutting early. Many hunters confuse this with the real event. I saw 2 little muley bucks sparing last week. Does that mean the rut is on? Well, I've seen bucks spar the first week of Sept all the way through till they drop their antlers in late Jan and early Feb. I've seen little bucks harass does well into Feb meanwhile mature bucks sleep 50 yards away. Do you think a little chasing means the rut is on then????

[tomahawk]

The peak of the muley rut typically occurs between Nov 15th-25th. The odd doe comes in early and a lot of times they get missed which causes them to come in again around Dec 8th-13th. The young bucks always are eager and showing signs of rutting early. Many hunters confuse this with the real event. I saw 2 little muley bucks sparing last week. Does that mean the rut is on? Well, I've seen bucks spar the first week of Sept all the way through till they drop their antlers in late Jan and early Feb. I've seen little bucks harass does well into Feb meanwhile mature bucks sleep 50 yards away. Do you think a little chasing means the rut is on then????

Bingo!!! Mature bucks rut for a shorter time then the little dink bucks but rut way harder for that shorter time. Little bucks, little bull moose or whatever are not as aggressive but feel the desire a lot longer then the breeding big males.

[.264winmag]

Kinda what I have been lead to believe Dana, except many of the does being bred later seemed to be younger maybe coming in late cause their first estrus?
I do recall now of a mature Mulie buck I took years ago nov.1 high in the selkirks. This thing was all horns and nuts, not a stitch of fat on him. Stunk like a rotten skunk and his stomach resembled a deflated medicine ball lol. I'd say heavy rut there, meat was some strong too!

[GoatGuy]

Bucks breeding does since last week in region 8 just like every other year.

[OutWest]

Bucks breeding does since last week in region 8 just like every other year.

Yup, that was a good show yesterday until the trigger was pulled.

[Steelpulse]

We've always done best november 10-20, seeing most activity and most connections with mature deer at all times of day, heading out for a week, starting thursday

[Grousedaddy]

Went out yesterday got bored and pulled out the rattle bag and had a 2 point mulie come in after about 20 min . It got pretty warm after 10 though and didnt see anything else

[TARCHER]

Prince George region is give or take a few days around nov 20

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yup, that was a good show yesterday until the trigger was pulled.

Hopefully something died??

[2chodi]

We have been seeing white-tail scrapes and small and medium sized white-tailed bucks following the does in the Peace for over a week now.

[GoatGuy]

We have been seeing white-tail scrapes and small and medium sized white-tailed bucks following the does in the Peace for over a week now.

This is interesting, things are still pretty quiet on the white-tail front down south. Hung a bunch of cams yesterday and it seemed quiet although a lot of the spots down here the deer move into and that usually doesn't happen until this week and next.

[LYKTOHUNT]

I was just checking out a goofy horned buck (palmated with weird long brow tines) just below our office building, his neck was fat and he was not getting far away from the does.

[Bugle M In]

the big boys should be moving in there now, obvious from some post of successful hunters, the bucks are swollen, and should be on the move. IMO

[curt]

a few yrs back I was in region 8 nov 26 bow season I have never experienced a full on rut like that in my 20 plus yrs in the bush it was crazy to see ill never forget that

[dana]

It is easy to understand why the Region 8 boys always see early rutting, they are out of the bush on the 10th and don't have a clue what goes on after that end date. What they see as pre pre rut condition they honestly believe to be the real thing because that is all they see when they are hunting. ;)

[GoatGuy]

It is easy to understand why the Region 8 boys always see early rutting, they are out of the bush on the 10th and don't have a clue what goes on after that end date. What they see as pre pre rut condition they honestly believe to be the real thing because that is all they see when they are hunting. ;)

Must be something we missed, thought a buck humping a doe was considered the rut, now you're telling me it's just practice.

Where do they sell these mulw deer prophylactics?

[OutWest]

Hopefully something died??

Eventually, after a bit of a rodeo..

[dana]

Outwest,
Great Looking Buck!!!!

Goatguy,
Don't confuse one super early doe and one lucky buck as to be "The Rut". The Insanity of the Peak is still weeks away. BTW I have watched bucks mount does in Jan and Feb as well as July and Aug. Just because some buck try, don't mean they actually get any. :) When it comes to the Pre-rut, many hunters don't understand that deer have several weeks of Foreplay. It typically is the younger bucks that work the does up, chasing, licking, mounting. When the true rut comes in, the mature buck walks out of the woodwork and does the deed. If there are numerous mature bucks and numerous hot does, Insanity occurs. What you are seeing in Late Oct and Early Nov is just childsplay compared to what happens mid to late Nov.

[GoatGuy]

Outwest,
Great Looking Buck!!!!

Goatguy,
Don't confuse one super early doe and one lucky buck as to be "The Rut". The Insanity of the Peak is still weeks away. BTW I have watched bucks mount does in Jan and Feb as well as July and Aug. Just because some buck try, don't mean they actually get any. :) When it comes to the Pre-rut, many hunters don't understand that deer have several weeks of Foreplay. It typically is the younger bucks that work the does up, chasing, licking, mounting. When the true rut comes in, the mature buck walks out of the woodwork and does the deed. If there are numerous mature bucks and numerous hot does, Insanity occurs. What you are seeing in Late Oct and Early Nov is just childsplay compared to what happens mid to late Nov.
Interesting what's a "mature buck" versus young bucks constitute?

[GoatGuy]

I guess while we're on the topic when do the fawns drop? And what is the gestation period?

[Sleep Robber]

Nice Buck Outwest !!

[srupp]

Hmmm whatever the timing ..today at approx 1 pm en route from Kamloops to Cache Creek...approx where the fossil digs are...before the mushroom farm there are a couple of large alphalpha fields along tge highway...there were 5 or so does and two respectable bucks..shooters and braggers they both were..chasing the does in what to me appeared to be rutting activity..bright light along the highway...
Srupp

[happyhunter]

Not sure about the rut but the Muleys in the east koots are definitely on the move! But I have only observed smallish bucks hanging around the does so far.

[Sofa King]

Outwest,
Great Looking Buck!!!!

Goatguy,
Don't confuse one super early doe and one lucky buck as to be "The Rut". The Insanity of the Peak is still weeks away. BTW I have watched bucks mount does in Jan and Feb as well as July and Aug. Just because some buck try, don't mean they actually get any. :) When it comes to the Pre-rut, many hunters don't understand that deer have several weeks of Foreplay. It typically is the younger bucks that work the does up, chasing, licking, mounting. When the true rut comes in, the mature buck walks out of the woodwork and does the deed. If there are numerous mature bucks and numerous hot does, Insanity occurs. What you are seeing in Late Oct and Early Nov is just childsplay compared to what happens mid to late Nov.

wtf dana?
they saw deer rutting.
you weren't there, but you are telling them they didn't see what they saw.
you don't know.
if they were rutting, then they were rutting, period.
maybe you haven't seen any rutting yet, that doesn't mean that some aren't in some areas.

[curt]

I\m no biologist but all I know is I seen bucks fighting, chasing and mounting does I seen does that were dripping blood I seen some monster bucks protecting small groups of does and I seen it all on November 26th pre rut post rut wtf do I know but deer were fighting, f**king and bleeding that I do know :)

[curt]

you said humping ba ha ha ha!!!
Must be something we missed, thought a buck humping a doe was considered the rut, now you're telling me it's just practice.

Where do they sell these mulw deer prophylactics?

[one-shot-wonder]

More than one estrus opportunity, the rut ebbs and flows through November......

[dana]

More than one estrus opportunity, the rut ebbs and flows through November......

and December ;)

[Bugle M In]

rut is on, bucks searching for Does etc etc.
Now, is a doe actually in heat today???? I don't know!
But this activity has started and will continue.
Yes, by end of Nov. .. and some where from now til then, the Apex of the rut will happen.
Let's just get out there and have some fun....bucks are coming in, the rodeo should be soon ( I get what Dana is saying )
But, when you hit it right and you are lucky to be in the right place at the right time...it's a hell of a lot of fun!
Only way to know is to get out there~ one place may differ from the next...luck and timing is the major player in success.
Some back road honey knowledge helps for success, but bucks are coming!....ha ha!
good luck all

[knockturnal]

I've taken a few good bucks over the years on Halloween that were all rutted up and pushing does around.

[dana]

Goat,
To play Devil's Advocate, why do you complain about Region 5's closure of the Rut if it actually occurs the last week of oct and the first week of Nov???? Do you think Region 8 and 5 closing on the 10th is just a date they pulled out of their asses????? If so, why the constant complaints of those closures????

If you read my first post you will see I say the odd doe comes in early. Said that in my last post too. The odd doe comes in late as well. But this thread was asking more about the Peak was it not??? When is that Peak?? Is is before whitetails or after? Was that not what the OP was asking???? My answer was very direct and true. The Peak is normally between the 15th and the 25th. Region 5 closes for a portion of the peak but not it's entirety. Region 8 misses all of the Peak. You should be beating the drum against your own Region because when it comes to mule deer, Region 5 has more opportunity than 8.

[Liveforthehunt]

Thanks for all the input everyone is voiced to there opinion I am quite successful and have shot a couple good muleys over the years pushing 200 not to brag with a lot of time spent in the bush and all the whitetails I have rattled in have been early in their rug November 10th-22 cheers some good opinions here

[srupp]

Hmmm probably early activity...just getting interested however they were rather large bucks for so early? Hmmm
Im thinking that the bucks I shot during the last week of the gos up here were more in rut...3rd week of Nov?
Interesting year fer sure..
Good info Mr. Dana
Cheers
Srupp

[Caretaker]

Im no authority on the subject but was a C/O for 25 years, l know the average mule deer doe gestation period is 205 days, give or take, all fawns are dropped the first of June

[Weatherby Fan]

All the years I hunted in area 8 I've wittnessed 3 times between Nov 5th -9th decent sized 4 points "humping" does, two of them died shortly after dismounting !
In all cases they had groups of 5 or 6 does with them.
Hunting in area 3 Ive seen a buck breeding a doe as late as Dec 5th, from my own experience I think the bulk of rut occurs between 10th-20th for Mule Deer in area 3 as far as White Tails I have no idea.

[Goliath]

Goat,
To play Devil's Advocate, why do you complain about Region 5's closure of the Rut if it actually occurs the last week of oct and the first week of Nov???? Do you think Region 8 and 5 closing on the 10th is just a date they pulled out of their asses????? If so, why the constant complaints of those closures????

If you read my first post you will see I say the odd doe comes in early. Said that in my last post too. The odd doe comes in late as well. But this thread was asking more about the Peak was it not??? When is that Peak?? Is is before whitetails or after? Was that not what the OP was asking???? My answer was very direct and true. The Peak is normally between the 15th and the 25th. Region 5 closes for a portion of the peak but not it's entirety. Region 8 misses all of the Peak. You should be beating the drum against your own Region because when it comes to mule deer, Region 5 has more opportunity than 8.

You nailed it Dana.

[quaint bucket]

Do you guys let them finish the rest of the does or just wait for them to get off one?

[charlie_horse]

As far as the rut goes does elevations and that stuff still as important or is it best to stay on the does when you find them regardless of elevation and terrain?

[tomahawk]

If you find hot does, no need to leave, if your in the heat of the rut, it's just a matter of time till the bucks cross the path the does walked on and pick up there scent and along come bucks, or they are under cover waiting for the does to come into more secure timber or whatever they feel secure in. Find the does in the rut and the bucks are not far.

[tomahawk]

There are 3 stages to every rut. Pre, main rut and post rut!! These are spread out over a couple months and during that time there is varied activity of rutting behaviour but the heat of the rut is what most of the big bucks have prepared themselves for. Smaller bucks, bulls etc are less intense but last longer.

[Bugle M In]

If you find hot does, no need to leave, if your in the heat of the rut, it's just a matter of time till the bucks cross the path the does walked on and pick up there scent and along come bucks, or they are under cover waiting for the does to come into more secure timber or whatever they feel secure in. Find the does in the rut and the bucks are not far.

good point about some bucks waiting for does to come into more secure timber.
Not all bucks run back and forth so much, some bucks seem to hold down a small area, and hang there, knowing the does will be by.
If the doe is in heat, than he may be lured out into surrounding , more open areas as she wanders from point to point.

[GoatGuy]

Goat,
To play Devil's Advocate, why do you complain about Region 5's closure of the Rut if it actually occurs the last week of oct and the first week of Nov???? Do you think Region 8 and 5 closing on the 10th is just a date they pulled out of their asses????? If so, why the constant complaints of those closures????

If you read my first post you will see I say the odd doe comes in early. Said that in my last post too. The odd doe comes in late as well. But this thread was asking more about the Peak was it not??? When is that Peak?? Is is before whitetails or after? Was that not what the OP was asking???? My answer was very direct and true. The Peak is normally between the 15th and the 25th. Region 5 closes for a portion of the peak but not it's entirety. Region 8 misses all of the Peak. You should be beating the drum against your own Region because when it comes to mule deer, Region 5 has more opportunity than 8.

I think the hunters rut and the rut are two different things. I think when the majority of the does come in to estrus things are relatively quiet as the bucks don't have far to travel before they run into hot does. I think the majority of the bucks are killed when there are fewer hot does and the bucks are putting some major miles on looking for something coming in to heat (typically yearlings and two year olds).

Just my experience but we've shot a lot of deer right around halloween +- 5 days, and 'mature bucks' (I'm guess we're talking about 4+ year old deer, stuff north of 170) and at that time they are skin and bones. No fat and they are busy doing some heavy breeding and a lot of laying down when they're with a hot doe.

Another part of all this is nutrition as it has been shown that body condition can affect timing. Does in better shape usually cycle earlier. Given our situation here with protein, the fact that some of the areas seldom to never produced a spike (all 2 pts and better as yearlings) and a lot of does that threw and carried twins this could also play a role.

As far as the regs discussion goes if it can be supported and maintain sex ratios I'm all for it. Our sex ratios in some areas are extremely low - way lower than what Region 5 staff used to trigger their changes. Region 8 has the highest hunter density and road density in the Province period. That translates into a lot more deer and moose being killed as compared to both Regions 3 and 5. If the objective is to maximize 'opportunity' we will have to close a lot of roads to ensure sex ratios are in the ballpark of the provincial minimum.

[Fisher-Dude]

Goat,
To play Devil's Advocate, why do you complain about Region 5's closure of the Rut if it actually occurs the last week of oct and the first week of Nov???? Do you think Region 8 and 5 closing on the 10th is just a date they pulled out of their asses????? If so, why the constant complaints of those closures????

If you read my first post you will see I say the odd doe comes in early. Said that in my last post too. The odd doe comes in late as well. But this thread was asking more about the Peak was it not??? When is that Peak?? Is is before whitetails or after? Was that not what the OP was asking???? My answer was very direct and true. The Peak is normally between the 15th and the 25th. Region 5 closes for a portion of the peak but not it's entirety. Region 8 misses all of the Peak. You should be beating the drum against your own Region because when it comes to mule deer, Region 5 has more opportunity than 8.


I think you're right. Region 8's seasons are fked up in comparison to R5. I've tried unsuccessfully for the past 6 years to get the season back to the pre-97 die-off date of Nov 15th. No luck.

I'll still submit it every 2 years and hope for the best though.

4 point is foolproof, but too many fools say no to the idea of a measly 5 days of hunting 4 points. Guess they are afraid someone will kill a bigger deer than they kill.

Peak rut date according to an oldtimer like me: November 17th.

[Bugle M In]

I think the hunters rut and the rut are two different things. I think when the majority of the does come in to estrus things are relatively quiet as the bucks don't have far to travel before they run into hot does. I think the majority of the bucks are killed when there are fewer hot does and the bucks are putting some major miles on looking for something coming in to heat (typically yearlings and two year olds).

Just my experience but we've shot a lot of deer right around halloween +- 5 days, and 'mature bucks' (I'm guess we're talking about 4+ year old deer, stuff north of 170) and at that time they are skin and bones. No fat and they are busy doing some heavy breeding and a lot of laying down when they're with a hot doe.

Another part of all this is nutrition as it has been shown that body condition can affect timing. Does in better shape usually cycle earlier. Given our situation here with protein, the fact that some of the areas seldom to never produced a spike (all 2 pts and better as yearlings) and a lot of does that threw and carried twins this could also play a role.

As far as the regs discussion goes if it can be supported and maintain sex ratios I'm all for it. Our sex ratios in some areas are extremely low - way lower than what Region 5 staff used to trigger their changes. Region 8 has the highest hunter density and road density in the Province period. That translates into a lot more deer and moose being killed as compared to both Regions 3 and 5. If the objective is to maximize 'opportunity' we will have to close a lot of roads to ensure sex ratios are in the ballpark of the provincial minimum.

was given the same reason..."nutrition affecting body condition which translates to timing" from a previous Biologist from Kamloops.
Peak Rut is always a bit different each year., give or take a week or 2.
Honestly, by the time someone here reports that such such place or region that the deer are in full rut....you are probably too late!...for the Full Rut.
Deer start near end of Oct, and will go till Dec, but, somewhere in there is the peak.
Many will say the later part of Nov, say in Reg 3 for mulies, and my past experiences would agree...somewhere in last part of Nov, if you could hunt for 2 straight weeks,
you will probably witness the Full Rut ...IMO

[GoatGuy]

I think you're right. Region 8's seasons are fked up in comparison to R5. I've tried unsuccessfully for the past 6 years to get the season back to the pre-97 die-off date of Nov 15th. No luck.

I'll still submit it every 2 years and hope for the best though.

4 point is foolproof, but too many fools say no to the idea of a measly 5 days of hunting 4 points. Guess they are afraid someone will kill a bigger deer than they kill.

Peak rut date according to an oldtimer like me: November 17th.

If anything you will lose part of your any buck season, just like the spike-fork season, because road density is WAY too high.

[dana]

Goat,
You have the nutruition thing backwards. If you are seeing bucks that are skin and bones already by Halloween, they were undernourished and will certainly not survive any serious winter hardships. The same rings true with early does. They are typically young (first year at breeding age) and by being breed early, their is a good chance of miscarage or fawn death as they get dropped in poor weather conditions if they are born too early in the spring. Good nutrition areas like the Interior Wetbelt mean bucks go into the rut with gobs of fat and actually come out of the rut with a good portion of that fat remaining. This allows them to actually cope quite well in adverse winter conditions. The bucks at highest risk of winter death are actually the 2 and 3 year olds that run themselves ragged with their tongues hanging out from the begginning of Nov till Dec, all in hopes to get 1 piece of tail snuck out from the grasp of the mature buck's harem. By mature bucks, I am talking 5-10 year olds. When you have numerous mature bucks (5+)all with numerous hot does, you will see what I mean by Utter Chaos. Hahaha. Never seen this happen in early Nov and I have witnessed it countless times. All out brawl fights, chasing, lip curling, mounting, stealing, stealing back, does going every direction, the stench of a barn yard, deer hair from both bucks and does being ripped by antlers, red pee stained snow everywhere, bucks spitting at each other, fawns running for cover for fear of being run over, young bucks running for cover for fear of an ass kicking and of course the Final act of a big brute passing on his genes. All this my friend happens during the Peak. A wam, bam, thank you mam that lasts about 4 days.

[GoatGuy]

Goat,
You have the nutruition thing backwards. If you are seeing bucks that are skin and bones already by Halloween, they were undernourished and will certainly not survive any serious winter hardships. The same rings true with early does. They are typically young (first year at breeding age) and by being breed early, their is a good chance of miscarage or fawn death as they get dropped in poor weather conditions if they are born too early in the spring. Good nutrition areas like the Interior Wetbelt mean bucks go into the rut with gobs of fat and actually come out of the rut with a good portion of that fat remaining. This allows them to actually cope quite well in adverse winter conditions. The bucks at highest risk of winter death are actually the 2 and 3 year olds that run themselves ragged with their tongues hanging out from the begginning of Nov till Dec, all in hopes to get 1 piece of tail snuck out from the grasp of the mature buck's harem. By mature bucks, I am talking 5-10 year olds. When you have numerous mature bucks (5+)all with numerous hot does, you will see what I mean by Utter Chaos. Hahaha. Never seen this happen in early Nov and I have witnessed it countless times. All out brawl fights, chasing, lip curling, mounting, stealing, stealing back, does going every direction, the stench of a barn yard, deer hair from both bucks and does being ripped by antlers, red pee stained snow everywhere, bucks spitting at each other, fawns running for cover for fear of being run over, young bucks running for cover for fear of an ass kicking and of course the Final act of a big brute passing on his genes. All this my friend happens during the Peak. A wam, bam, thank you mam that lasts about 4 days.
It's not a nutrition issue down here. The early does are usually old healthy does. They are also much more prone to throw twins. Yearlings often come in later. Same thing they've found everywhere else.

On the buck front many of the areas with great nutrition do not have spikes - ever. Succession appears to be changing that.

I think the difference between timing might be nutrition and the easy winters here versus what you experience up there and later green-up. Would be interesting to shoot a few does in december to see what timing looks like in the different areas.

What you refer to are the types of things we used to see regularly down here and at this time of the year with the whopper bucks. Of course, that was before the days of photos on the interweb lol.

More importantly is the whole timing and cycle issue is controlled by the does, not the bucks.

[GoatGuy]

On the gestation front rams is there. IIRC 205 days.

If the drop happens June 1-7 that puts us at Nov 5-12?

That is probably the easiest way to determine the 'peak'.

[dana]

I was down there too remember. Grew up there and spent a good amount of time on the Saddle. I remember Utter Chaos there and it certainly wasn't Oct when I would be in the bitter cold with my fingers freezing to the aluminum shaft arrows watching bucks go crazy. I have also spent a good amount of time in the late season in Region 5 witnessing the same event the last 3 days of Nov.
i have killed plenty of muley does turning that timing. Lots of fat and big healthy does. Being a picky hunter, I sit back and watch and know the difference between young little does and mature does. It is the mature does that come into heat all within the same time period. Your theory doesn't ring true with what happens in the real world. The further north you go and the harsher the climate, the earlier the rut. The warmer the weather, the later the rut.

[Fisher-Dude]

road density is WAY too high.

Said the guy with a flock of shitters. You trying to create your own cowboy oasis?

174,000 hunters and it was open for any buck Sep 1 to Nov 30 in R8. Muley and WT does both open with a GOS most of the month of November.

Now we can't have 5 days of 4 point mule deer. Bullshit. No, more like chickenshit in the MoE, afraid of vocal guide-outfitters with donuts.

[GoatGuy]

Said the guy with a flock of shitters. You trying to create your own cowboy oasis?

174,000 hunters and it was open for any buck Sep 1 to Nov 30 in R8. Muley and WT does both open with a GOS most of the month of November.

Now we can't have 5 days of 4 point mule deer. Bullshit. No, more like chickenshit in the MoE, afraid of vocal guide-outfitters with donuts.

Less access and more deer back then as well.

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

Can't use science only when it suits you.

[GoatGuy]

I was down there too remember. Grew up there and spent a good amount of time on the Saddle. I remember Utter Chaos there and it certainly wasn't Oct when I would be in the bitter cold with my fingers freezing to the aluminum shaft arrows watching bucks go crazy. I have also spent a good amount of time in the late season in Region 5 witnessing the same event the last 3 days of Nov.
i have killed plenty of muley does turning that timing. Lots of fat and big healthy does. Being a picky hunter, I sit back and watch and know the difference between young little does and mature does. It is the mature does that come into heat all within the same time period. Your theory doesn't ring true with what happens in the real world. The further north you go and the harsher the climate, the earlier the rut. The warmer the weather, the later the rut.

Would be interesting to see what it looks like with some collars or shooting a few does.

Productivity in the saddle is nothing like what we are experiencing in other parts with better nutrition.

[dana]

Pre-highway and Pr89 and 96 winter kills, the Saddle was the second largest winter range in the province. The numbers of deer was staggering. Don't always throw out the past from your logic just because you weren't there to remember it. History is a very good teacher. You have this way of believing it is only the today that counts and everyone in the past screwed things up royally. Ain't always the case. Some very solid management in the past with large successes like what the Saddle used to be.

[Fisher-Dude]

Pre-highway and Pr89 and 96 winter kills, the Saddle was the second largest winter range in the province. The numbers of deer was staggering. Don't always throw out the past from your logic just because you weren't there to remember it. History is a very good teacher. You have this way of believing it is only the today that counts and everyone in the past screwed things up royally. Ain't always the case. Some very solid management in the past with large successes like what the Saddle used to be.

We used to hunt the Piggery right above that. When we hit the migration just right, it was amazing the number of deer, and lots of great bucks, that funneled through there. And whadyaknow, it was any buck right to Nov 30th and there were way more hunters than today.

There is all this belly-aching about too much access, but the same belly-achers say that walking is so much more effective than road hunting. Back in the 70s and 80s, the demographics of hunters were skewed to a much younger age group than today, and pretty much everyone hiked to hunt. We didn't need roads to get where we were going.

In light of this, correlating access for less-effective road hunting layered with antler point restrictions with more hunters on late any buck seasons hunting in an arguably more effective (hiking) manner makes the "too much access" of today something of a red herring. The hunters hiked, there were more hunters, the season was way longer, and there were no restrictions on harvest. Now we're restricted by antler points, we're too old to hike and 75,000 of us have died, we have short seasons, and some punks are saying we have to shut down access to "save the deer?" WTF?

The argument really isn't as cut and dried as some think. Old timers like Dana and myself who hunted these areas 25 to 45 years ago can hopefully add some insight to what worked in game management to these wet-behind-the-ears 30-something upstarts! ;)

[GoatGuy]

We used to hunt the Piggery right above that. When we hit the migration just right, it was amazing the number of deer, and lots of great bucks, that funneled through there. And whadyaknow, it was any buck right to Nov 30th and there were way more hunters than today.

There is all this belly-aching about too much access, but the same belly-achers say that walking is so much more effective than road hunting. Back in the 70s and 80s, the demographics of hunters were skewed to a much younger age group than today, and pretty much everyone hiked to hunt. We didn't need roads to get where we were going.

In light of this, correlating access for less-effective road hunting layered with antler point restrictions with more hunters on late any buck seasons hunting in an arguably more effective (hiking) manner makes the "too much access" of today something of a red herring. The hunters hiked, there were more hunters, the season was way longer, and there were no restrictions on harvest. Now we're restricted by antler points, we're too old to hike and 75,000 of us have died, we have short seasons, and some punks are saying we have to shut down access to "save the deer?" WTF?

The argument really isn't as cut and dried as some think. Old timers like Dana and myself who hunted these areas 25 to 45 years ago can hopefully add some insight to what worked in game management to these wet-behind-the-ears 30-something upstarts! ;)

It's actually pretty simple. Dana also referred to the number of deer on winter range in antlers saddle. Compared to today it isn't the same place and won't be. The habitat is in poor shape, there simply are not as many deer, and access is through the roof.

Nonetheless the numbers are the numbers. Sex ratios are low in some MUs, below the provincial minimum for both mule deer and moose. This is due to succession and a decline in habitat coupled with increased road density associated with and into logged areas. Your "God given right" to be able to quad every single inch of the region will result in more reductions in opportunity. It really is that simple.

You can argue with that if you want, but you join the folks at raincoast and suzuki foundation, throwing science out the window and using your own personal opinion.

One way or the other it's coming.

[GoatGuy]

Pre-highway and Pr89 and 96 winter kills, the Saddle was the second largest winter range in the province. The numbers of deer was staggering. Don't always throw out the past from your logic just because you weren't there to remember it. History is a very good teacher. You have this way of believing it is only the today that counts and everyone in the past screwed things up royally. Ain't always the case. Some very solid management in the past with large successes like what the Saddle used to be.

Not sure if this is pointed at me of FD, but yes I agree there were a ton of deer. I don't think anyone screwed it up. Simply a case of a lack of habitat management and you have fewer deer. Increase access and you have more bucks shot and sex ratios in decline.

Productive and increasing deer populations makes things easy from a management perspective. We currently don't have the habitat for that and what we do have is so road laden now we have sex ratios for both moose and mule deer which are on their way downhill.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sure would be nice to get updated regional-wide ratios so everyone can be on the same page.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

It's actually pretty simple. Dana also referred to the number of deer on winter range in antlers saddle. Compared to today it isn't the same place and won't be. The habitat is in poor shape, there simply are not as many deer, and access is through the roof.

Nonetheless the numbers are the numbers. Sex ratios are low in some MUs, below the provincial minimum for both mule deer and moose. This is due to succession and a decline in habitat coupled with increased road density associated with and into logged areas. Your "God given right" to be able to quad every single inch of the region will result in more reductions in opportunity. It really is that simple.

You can argue with that if you want, but you join the folks at raincoast and suzuki foundation, throwing science out the window and using your own personal opinion.

One way or the other it's coming.


Actually, the Saddle and the Piggery are all under access restrictions right now. According to your "theory" that area should be full of deer.

Funny how that didn't work out.

Good to see you avoided the complex issue of hunter demographics versus access versus hunting method effectiveness. Wouldn't want those worms let out of the can.

[curt]

and thats what i seen region 8 Nov 26th exactly what you discribed!!
Goat,
You have the nutruition thing backwards. If you are seeing bucks that are skin and bones already by Halloween, they were undernourished and will certainly not survive any serious winter hardships. The same rings true with early does. They are typically young (first year at breeding age) and by being breed early, their is a good chance of miscarage or fawn death as they get dropped in poor weather conditions if they are born too early in the spring. Good nutrition areas like the Interior Wetbelt mean bucks go into the rut with gobs of fat and actually come out of the rut with a good portion of that fat remaining. This allows them to actually cope quite well in adverse winter conditions. The bucks at highest risk of winter death are actually the 2 and 3 year olds that run themselves ragged with their tongues hanging out from the begginning of Nov till Dec, all in hopes to get 1 piece of tail snuck out from the grasp of the mature buck's harem. By mature bucks, I am talking 5-10 year olds. When you have numerous mature bucks (5+)all with numerous hot does, you will see what I mean by Utter Chaos. Hahaha. Never seen this happen in early Nov and I have witnessed it countless times. All out brawl fights, chasing, lip curling, mounting, stealing, stealing back, does going every direction, the stench of a barn yard, deer hair from both bucks and does being ripped by antlers, red pee stained snow everywhere, bucks spitting at each other, fawns running for cover for fear of being run over, young bucks running for cover for fear of an ass kicking and of course the Final act of a big brute passing on his genes. All this my friend happens during the Peak. A wam, bam, thank you mam that lasts about 4 days.

[HarryToolips]

It's actually pretty simple. Dana also referred to the number of deer on winter range in antlers saddle. Compared to today it isn't the same place and won't be. The habitat is in poor shape, there simply are not as many deer, and access is through the roof.

Nonetheless the numbers are the numbers. Sex ratios are low in some MUs, below the provincial minimum for both mule deer and moose. This is due to succession and a decline in habitat coupled with increased road density associated with and into logged areas. Your "God given right" to be able to quad every single inch of the region will result in more reductions in opportunity. It really is that simple.

You can argue with that if you want, but you join the folks at raincoast and suzuki foundation, throwing science out the window and using your own personal opinion.

One way or the other it's coming.

So how do we make road de-activation happen on a certain percentage of roads, as was discussed on my FSR de-activation thread several months ago?? Is there any way us as hunters can make the MOE do this??

[Bugle M In]

I've seen a few areas now, that have quad ,2 seated and such access, which never did before.
I can assure some of those 250 - 300 pound boys...NEVER EVER, climb into these areas years ago.
There is a lot of Access now, way more than ever, and way more user groups, not just hunters accessing it...tearing up etc.
Other places, which were winter grounds, some in the EK's, now hold huge condo development etc.
Up until 20 - 30 years ago, there was little change, if any, small towns stayed small etc.

And as we all know here, Wolves are over taking ( for now ) at an alarming rate...all over.
There have always been large expanses of land, which were free of wolves, never seen there before sort of thing...20 - 30 years ago.
Let's face it!...there everywhere, soon to be walking outside your living room in many areas!

There is no 1 smoking gun here that is responsible for all this, that all are talking about, it's a combination
of things, and I know all you guys posting above know that.

I personally believe in some road closure access, for one just to be out somewhere with out a quad jamming by etc.
But, I hunt a road closure area for Elk, and it helped for years in my opinion, but once wolves came in...it didn't matter!
I don't like the closure say in Reg 5 while Reg 3 is open, only because I believe it should be open as to spread out hunter #'s.
5 being close has created quite a log jam of hunters in parts of 3.

There are plenty of reasons things are F'd up, and not 1 thing contributes to the whole problem.
Now back to the original thread, I'm going to leap out and say...Nov 26th for the Apex of the rut.
But I already seen that it can be different by a week or 2 , from 1 year to the next!
Seen it with my own 2 eyes, so I don't give a S*** who tells me what I saw!
I know what a rut is, and hope many on this forum get a chance to experience it...lots of fun!!

[Fisher-Dude]

But, I hunt a road closure area for Elk, and it helped for years in my opinion, but once wolves came in...it didn't matter!



Yup. Hunter harvest is usually insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

It's just too bad that governments (aka politicians getting donations from commercial hunting interests) keep restricting hunters more and more and more while habitat disappears and predators flourish.

We've restricted hunters for 40 years and all we ended up with is less game. Maybe restricting hunters doesn't work.


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/headbashwall.gif

[Bugle M In]

Yup. Hunter harvest is usually insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

It's just too bad that governments (aka politicians getting donations from commercial hunting interests) keep restricting hunters more and more and more while habitat disappears and predators flourish.

We've restricted hunters for 40 years and all we ended up with is less game. Maybe restricting hunters doesn't work.


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/headbashwall.gif

I don't think any of us ( hunter's ) like restrictions, either road closures or shortened seasons for sure.
But development will continue, more winter range lost, with little money put in to make up for new habitat to be created.
Which makes me wonder, how can you create new winter range, which was inherently already there for the game...they decide where they can and
have survived for thousands of years, in their TRADITIONAL winter range.

Throw in easier access does not help, and I know you disagree on this, but I have seen people who are in no physical shape o be where they are...but they are now!
And, on a side note, I am now having physical difficulties, so yes, I am thankful for the easier access, but I still know in the past with my current condition,
I wouldn't have been able to.

And yes, we all agree government is the main problem in this, as they seem to be in many aspects of what impacts our lives, whether it be hunting or something else.

As for right now, all we as hunters can do is start taking out some wolves, but sadly, it won't be affective I believe.
With the cost of gas etc for us LM's, it's not worth going up to go after wolves on a regular basis.
In the end, nature will work it out, as I believe the biologist here will stick to that as the game plan.
And for us, hunters, we will have to possibly suffer thru more slower, less successful opportunities for quite som time, IMO.

But all of you have made some strong points, and the combination of those points would help, but more things need to be corrected.
FN and not knowing the amount of game they are taking.
Winter Range and encroachment by development. ( yes game is successful in summer areas with all the logging etc ), but those #'s need to be supported and fed in Winter Range.
prediatation , wolves and cougars etc and their high #'s right now ( we all have seen the explosions of their #'s )
Many user groups using what once were small trails and turning them into Highways etc.
Vehicles weren't so much the problem, but once ATV's came in, they get Everywhere! or damn near everywhere. ( Sorry ATV guys, but it is the truth )
Government and special interest groups etc etc.
The list goes on, and it's a big list of problems ! which in the end impact wildlife, which impacts our success.

Hopefully the person who started this post, has been given some insight on the question of " THE RUT "
As we, myself included, have started really a whole different thread!

I would say again, mid to end November, with the rutting activity starting near end of Oct, and the fall off the rut in Beginning Dec.
Only sad part, was that years ago, the season was much longer, end of Dec, AND, Snow pact was much higher and earlier than it has been
for quite some time now.
The opportunity to hunt later in the season, with most deer and Large bucks being pushed down into the winter areas, is no longer present, which is
one thing I really miss not having the opportunity to do, as some very large deer were taken late into Dec, even if not in the record books!
And those bucks would have breed does by that point in time.

Those were the days I guess, can't say if it will ever happen again?????

[GROOTSKY]

Has anyone noticed the affects of a stormy day( cold & snow) during the height of the rut? The reason I ask, a few years back on Nov. 23 we got our first real dump of snow, 6" plus, a friend of mine called to ask for help with the buck he shot and on my way to him I seen five bucks in different areas along a stretch of only a few KM, all of witch were various 4 points.

He had been hunting the same area for the previous few days with only limited sightings. This all happened during the day as the snow started flying early in the morning. Coincedence?

[tadpole]

Coincidence? I think not. Snow storms are the best times to hunt deer. They really do move a lot in times like this.

[Sofa King]

I was thinking about upping my odds maybe.
I have a deer decoy, actually it's my full-mount deer target for archery.
I was thinking to take it out and set it up where i'll maybe try to do a wait.

so, for this early part of the season, should I set it out with the antlers on it?
or without?

I know the bucks should be more interested in scrapping right now, but, they are also being seen with does as well.

[dana]

GG,
There is zero science in your ramblings. Let me get this straight, the muley rut in Region 8 has moved 3 weeks earlier than it historically ever was and this is a result of access and better, more successful hunters???? Seriously???? First you throw the habitat card out and make up nonsense that somehow your habitat is better than everywhere else in the province, and now you are declaring that increased access has made the rut 3 weeks early???? So, what, deer didn't like to rut in the safety of zero hunting pressure with the season shut down, so they all decided that they would rather rut and risk death when hunters are out and about on the prowl??? So you are telling me the deer in Region 8 actually prefer risky sex over safe sex???? :) And you call out the Region 4 boys as crazy? Hahaha.

When it comes to access, you are no more Special down there. As a matter of fact, the Mountain Pine Beetle barely touched you compared to many other areas of the Interior. MPB Salvage has created tons of access that would blow your mind if you ventured out of that little bubble of yours. As for hunter success, you give hunters way too much credit and don't give mule deer the respect they deserve. The modern hunter and all his toys is pathetic at the art of hunting. Mule Deer are a very smart critter and can easily avoid the modern human hunter even during the crazy time of year, the rut.

[GoatGuy]

GG,
There is zero science in your ramblings. Let me get this straight, the muley rut in Region 8 has moved 3 weeks earlier than it historically ever was and this is a result of access and better, more successful hunters???? Seriously???? First you throw the habitat card out and make up nonsense that somehow your habitat is better than everywhere else in the province, and now you are declaring that increased access has made the rut 3 weeks early???? So, what, deer didn't like to rut in the safety of zero hunting pressure with the season shut down, so they all decided that they would rather rut and risk death when hunters are out and about on the prowl??? So you are telling me the deer in Region 8 actually prefer risky sex over safe sex???? :) And you call out the Region 4 boys as crazy? Hahaha.

When it comes to access, you are no more Special down there. As a matter of fact, the Mountain Pine Beetle barely touched you compared to many other areas of the Interior. MPB Salvage has created tons of access that would blow your mind if you ventured out of that little bubble of yours. As for hunter success, you give hunters way too much credit and don't give mule deer the respect they deserve. The modern hunter and all his toys is pathetic at the art of hunting. Mule Deer are a very smart critter and can easily avoid the modern human hunter even during the crazy time of year, the rut.

The low sex ratios are due to what are historically smaller deer populations in some areas and increased road density. The sex ratios are a reflection of hunter harvest. Region 8 has the highest road density and highest hunter density in the province. That is fact. I don't think anyone said it was due to mountain pine beetle or your impression of who touched what.

Mule deer sex ratios, where they've been flown, tend to reflect that, particularly in the western side of the region. The provincial minimum is 20 bucks: 100 does post season. There are several MUs that are and will be lower than that - you will probably find a couple of MUs in R3 below provincial minimums as well. Ratios are below what was found and used to trigger changes in R5. Moose sex ratios also reflect these issues. Hunter density and road density in Region 3, 4 and 5 is lower than Region 8. Of course there are MUs where harvest could be increased if we had the money to manage more intensively.

The limiting factor for deer populations in Region 8 is principally habitat. Fire surpression and anthropogenic change are the two main issues.

Generally speaking the catch all for road density is 0.6 km/km2. In region 8 you might find a handful of MUs with FSRs less than that density nevermind the total road density.

The rut timing is clearly debatable. If you believe the rut is the last week of November this puts fawn drop Mid-end of June. Might be reasonable. When do fawns show up where you hunt? Easiest thing is to count backwards about 205 days.

To review the issues are:

1) Sex ratios are below provincial minimums
2) This is due principally to lower density deer populations and increased access
3) Lower density deer populations are a function of habitat

I hope this makes sense.

If you don't believe me please feel free to contact your regional biologist. He is well aware of the effects of road density and early seral stage on spike-fork harvest. The MLR is interesting.

Unfortunately we are coming to a crossroads in some areas. Reduce opportunity or reduce access.

Lastly, we haven't even gotten started on the habitat destruction that is occuring across the region. That is another conversation - ironically the majority of it occurs during the spring/summer on winter range.

[Papa Sasquatch]

I am having a beer downtown beautiful Coalmont.
Spent the past three days seeking the elusive wt buck.
I got two days left before i run out of beer and must return to the grind stone.

[GoatGuy]

Actually, the Saddle and the Piggery are all under access restrictions right now. According to your "theory" that area should be full of deer.

Funny how that didn't work out.

Good to see you avoided the complex issue of hunter demographics versus access versus hunting method effectiveness. Wouldn't want those worms let out of the can.

Believe I stated the issue with mule deer populations is habitat.

The effect of harvest on sex ratios is due to road density.

Did not state that reduced access would make areas 'full of deer'. Stated that low sex ratios are due to high hunter and road density.

[GoatGuy]

Mule deer hunters per km2
Region 3 =0.18
Region 4= 0.06
Region 5 = 0.07
Region 8 = 0.31

Of course not head of a pin measurement but gives a decent idea.

[one-shot-wonder]

Actually, the Saddle and the Piggery are all under access restrictions right now. According to your "theory" that area should be full of deer.

Funny how that didn't work out.

Good to see you avoided the complex issue of hunter demographics versus access versus hunting method effectiveness. Wouldn't want those worms let out of the can.

Antlers Saddle has had motor vehicle access restrictions for maybe a year, year and a half, IIRC it came into effect in early 2013. Hardly enough time to rebound mule deer numbers, especially seeing as the habitat and predators have not been addressed, nor was an enforcement on "unregulated harvest".

[Bugle M In]

okay, can someone pm me where antlers saddle and the piggery is??:mrgreen:
No really! please pm me if ya don't mind!

[bcmulie]

Interesting discussion. I took a quick look at my trail cam photos (from region 3) for the past couple years, and could only locate 2 fawn photos in June - one on June 7 and the other June 22. The fawn in the second photo is clearly older than the one from June 7 (not surprisingly). Since fawns move very little the first few days of life, I would say the June 7 fawn was at least several days old - probably born in the first couple days of June. Based on the size differences, the June 22 fawn was probably also born quite early in June. This would put the breeding dates at around Nov 5-10. An admittedly small sample size, but it does suggest that the peak rut (by which I mean the time when most does are bred) is earlier than some have guessed. I would be curious to know when others running trail cams typically first see fawns showing up.

[Bugle M In]

Interesting discussion. I took a quick look at my trail cam photos (from region 3) for the past couple years, and could only locate 2 fawn photos in June - one on June 7 and the other June 22. The fawn in the second photo is clearly older than the one from June 7 (not surprisingly). Since fawns move very little the first few days of life, I would say the June 7 fawn was at least several days old - probably born in the first couple days of June. Based on the size differences, the June 22 fawn was probably also born quite early in June. This would put the breeding dates at around Nov 5-10. An admittedly small sample size, but it does suggest that the peak rut (by which I mean the time when most does are bred) is earlier than some have guessed. I would be curious to know when others running trail cams typically first see fawns showing up.

yup, that would be the best way to figure stuff out.
Maybe a thread could be started on just that alone....trail cam of fawns with date stamps.
sounds good to me!
as stated, a bio from Kamloops during the 70's who main focus ( said by he ) was mule deer.
He said it was late Oct...pretty sure I didn't confuse that point.
My experiencing with seeing heavy rutting activity was always the 3rd week of Nov.
But, I am not everywhere on the map at the same time, and I do believe people who say they saw what they saw.
But, if a fawn takes 205 to drop, then photos such as yours would be a better indicator.
But, do some fawns drop prematurely???or some drop later than expected???
My daughter was born late???, and other are born early??
But photos with time stamp is a great solution in this argument/ uuhhmmm , I mean discussion!

[.264winmag]

I've also found that there's a 'lull' in overall deer numbers seen in early to mid November. My theory is that this may in fact be the peak of breeding season as most bucks have found a date and are in the thick stuff gettin er done. Then shortly after there seems to be those couple 'epic' days that come every year, every buck in the forest seems to be out and about. Maybe the majority of the does have been bred at this time and they're out looking for other receptive females? They don't seem to hold harems like an elk, often seen them run out in the open and push their doe into the thick stuff.

[M.Dean]

Animals have to rut around the same time every year, reason is if we had a real late winter this year and the Deer didn't go into rut until middle of Dec lets say, the Does would be giving birth around the end of June, then if we got a real cold October, like we've had before, a lot of the young Deer would die. Now, if this happened 2, 3 or 4 years in a row, they would become extinct, and we'd all have to hunt wall lizards, feral pig's and turtles! Ever wonder why all the fruit and vegetables ripen in the fall? It's the changing amount of daylight and dark hours as fall approaches, I believe it's call "Photosynthesis" Try typing that word without spell check!!! So, there in a nut shell is why Deer and Moose and all other animals "Rut" pretty well the exact same time each year.

[tadpole]

They just follow the photoperiod, and they don't care for a winter time change.:-D

[GoatGuy]

I've also found that there's a 'lull' in overall deer numbers seen in early to mid November. My theory is that this may in fact be the peak of breeding season as most bucks have found a date and are in the thick stuff gettin er done. Then shortly after there seems to be those couple 'epic' days that come every year, every buck in the forest seems to be out and about. Maybe the majority of the does have been bred at this time and they're out looking for other receptive females? They don't seem to hold harems like an elk, often seen them run out in the open and push their doe into the thick stuff.

This is consistent with my perception. I also think you have other factors such as snow pushing deer on to winter range later in nov bringing hunters "luck" and the thought that the rut is on, when they're really just cleaning up the few remaining does.

See the same thing with wt.

[bighornbob]

Enough of the arguing about when the deer are screwing or if fisher dude actually gets out of his vehicle to take a piss (my bet is he only opens the door and leans toward it).

Lets talk about a shooting 6 and 7 year old rams, something that everyone can agree on:):)

BHB

[BCrams]

Enough of the arguing about when the deer are screwing or if fisher dude actually gets out of his vehicle to take a piss (my bet is he only opens the door and leans toward it).

I thought Fisher-Dude mentored you on the art of vehicle / quad hunting for bighorns with a pee bottle?? This true FD??

[untilthelastbeat]

Git em dana, git em! Hahaha love your input on mule deer and agree 100%. I hunt region 3 for muleys every year from 3500ft up to 5000ft and every year they usualy start herding does around the 20th-25th and then all hell breaks loose around the 25th until anywhere around dec 10th. The actual rut not the 3 points trying to get a peice.

[bigbuckbuster]

I guess while we're on the topic when do the fawns drop? And what is the gestation period?
This sums it up for me. Fawns drop in the second week of May every year and the Mule Deer Gestation period is 115 days. That tells me that the peek of the rut is in and around the 10th of November. I hear people say "its too warm for the rut to start". temperature has nothing to do with it.

[Fisher-Dude]

Enough of the arguing about when the deer are screwing or if fisher dude actually gets out of his vehicle to take a piss (my bet is he only opens the door and leans toward it).

BHB


You haven't learned bugger all in 8 years on this site. Try to pay attention!

BCRams gets a gold star for his answer. Well done!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0u6Lb6RCz4

[OutWest]

This sums it up for me. Fawns drop in the second week of May every year and the Mule Deer Gestation period is 115 days. That tells me that the peek of the rut is in and around the 10th of November. I hear people say "its too warm for the rut to start". temperature has nothing to do with it.

Those numbers don't quite add up...

Mule deer gestation period is 205 days give or take a few.

[GoatGuy]

Enough of the arguing about when the deer are screwing or if fisher dude actually gets out of his vehicle to take a piss (my bet is he only opens the door and leans toward it).

Lets talk about a shooting 6 and 7 year old rams, something that everyone can agree on:):)

BHB

There's a reason the field mouse walks on all fours.

Need I say more?

[Bugle M In]

ok...if the rut / copulation day is Nov 10th 2014, and gestation days are (205 days) from Nov 10th 2014, than fawns should drop on June 3rd 2015.
Here is a calculator http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/time/date-day.php

So, lets see if some members can post picks of the earliest fawns on their trail cams come 2015 ( end of may til end of june ).
Than we can put this all to rest!
Although it might be a little different from region to region I suspect..IMO.

Only question is, is gestation 205 days, and do we all agree on this??

[Fisher-Dude]

Pics taken 06/13/10. 205 days before that = 11/20/09.

These little guys were no more than a couple of days old.



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1168.jpg


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1158.jpg

[horshur]

Antlers Saddle has had motor vehicle access restrictions for maybe a year, year and a half, IIRC it came into effect in early 2013. Hardly enough time to rebound mule deer numbers, especially seeing as the habitat and predators have not been addressed, nor was an enforcement on "unregulated harvest".

antler saddle is F ed for habitat...probably better they would keep them thinned out in there anyway....It was bad there 25 years ago it aint got better...access restrictions
will make it worse.

[Sofa King]

i think it's funny how people think it's an exact science.
humans gestation is 9 months.
how many babies are actually born at exactly 9 months?

it's not complicated.
best chances for survival is to have their babies in spring.
so, they get bred accordingly, to roughly give that amount of time.
some will be bred a little early, some a little late.

and the statement saying that it isn't the real rut if it's 3pointers breeding??
I've seen massive 3pointers that were by far the dominant buck in the area.
there's plenty of dink 4points out there.
if does are getting bred, the rut is on, period.

[GoatGuy]

Pics taken 06/13/10. 205 days before that = 11/20/09.

These little guys were no more than a couple of days old.



What were these three doing?

And what do does and fawns do for the first couple of days? And first couple weeks?

Getting in to some serious learning here.

[Liveforthehunt]

Thanks for the info everyone some very good advice and outlooks here I know one things for sure they are starting to hit the ground got a couple pictures from buddies that took a couple pigs today unfortunately I had to work Pushing 190 big deer getting out this weekend to look for something of size cheers

[Papa Sasquatch]

One thing i know for sure no rut going on here . Coalmont BC

[bcmulie]

Cool pics, F-D. For the first 3-5 days fawns normally lie curled up, only rising to nurse, and they are also normally separate from their mother. She will hide them in the brush and then stay away so that her scent doesn't attract predators, returning only to nurse them. So while it's possible those fawns are only a couple days old (they look pretty small to me - much smaller than the June 22 fawn I have on my trail cam), it's more likely that they are slightly older than that.

[GoatGuy]

Cool pics, F-D. For the first 3-5 days fawns normally lie curled up, only rising to nurse, and they are also normally separate from their mother. She will hide them in the brush and then stay away so that her scent doesn't attract predators, returning only to nurse them. So while it's possible those fawns are only a couple days old (they look pretty small to me - much smaller than the June 22 fawn I have on my trail cam), it's more likely that they are slightly older than that.

Correct....................

[GoatGuy]

antler saddle is F ed for habitat...probably better they would keep them thinned out in there anyway....It was bad there 25 years ago it aint got better...access restrictions
will make it worse.

You are right it's a mess. Not having a quad making a new trail every 50 yards should help - it certainly won't make it worse.

Most of the winter range in the south-central okanagan now has quad/dirt bike and mountain bike trails all over it. Braided trails seem to be everywhere. The environmental damage is a whole nother issue that is only going to accelerate limitations on the use of ORVs.

[Fisher-Dude]

Cool pics, F-D. For the first 3-5 days fawns normally lie curled up, only rising to nurse, and they are also normally separate from their mother. She will hide them in the brush and then stay away so that her scent doesn't attract predators, returning only to nurse them. So while it's possible those fawns are only a couple days old (they look pretty small to me - much smaller than the June 22 fawn I have on my trail cam), it's more likely that they are slightly older than that.

Yep. These little guys could take 2 or 3 steps then they were down on their bellies, as they didn't have enough strength yet to go any further. I spotted the doe walking across the block, then lie down, and these little gaffers were right there. Hadn't seen them until she walked in to where they were lying down. Pretty cool to watch them.

[Fisher-Dude]

You are right it's a mess. Not having a quad making a new trail every 50 yards should help - it certainly won't make it worse.

Most of the winter range in the south-central okanagan now has quad/dirt bike and mountain bike trails all over it. Braided trails seem to be everywhere. The environmental damage is a whole nother issue that is only going to accelerate limitations on the use of ORVs.


Not to mention all the jackasses on horses that are gouging out trails everywhere, chainsawing green trees, leaving parasite-infected shit piles everywhere, contaminating drinking water, etc.

Time to put plates and diapers on those fricken things, and ban them from mule deer winter range where they do nothing but disturb the animals during critical times of the year.

[BCrams]

Plenty of papers out there on fawn drops with the use of VITs. One study had the majority dropping around June 10th. This puts it in line with FD's photo's that they likely dropped 3-5 days earlier as mentioned by Mulie.

[Fisher-Dude]

Plenty of papers out there on fawn drops with the use of VITs. One study had the majority dropping around June 10th. This puts it in line with FD's photo's that they likely dropped 3-5 days earlier as mentioned by Mulie.


So my estimated Peak Rut Day of Nov 17th is bang on! :D

Killed Nov 17th. Had to wait until the doe stepped out of the way and his nose popped out of her behind before pulling the trigger.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Merritt.jpg

[bigbuckbuster]

Those numbers don't quite add up...

Mule deer gestation period is 205 days give or take a few.
You are correct, I should do some more research before I start typing lol. I was going off of memory and was obviously mistaken

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So my estimated Peak Rut Day of Nov 17th is bang on! :D

Killed Nov 17th. Had to wait until the doe stepped out of the way and his nose popped out of her behind before pulling the trigger.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Merritt.jpg

That's just foreplay:-D.

[Liveforthehunt]

November 17th seems a bit late but give or take a week or two of being late that year ;) lol

[luckofthedraw]

How are things looking? This is my first time hunting the region 3 rut, and I saw good bucks on tcam pics btwn the 3-8 (4 bucks in 5 days). Since then it seems to have dried up(0 bucks since) and I'm pissed because I had to be out of town. Also had a big boy running and grunting a doe in that time, but couldnt stop him to draw back.I know people say the rut is still a few days away....however, from what i witnessed, it could be over. Hows other areas looking? Input?

[Fisher-Dude]

Saw a region 3 buck lip-curling yesterday. He was on the prowl but didn't have any does yet.

[M.Dean]

The rut is in full swing! If you keep going out, your chances of wacking a decent 4 point are real good right now! I've been hearing a few story's in the last week of some real nice looking bucks, think I might try to brave the elements in the morning and go for a rip up the mountain on the Quad. But even with a electric vest, hand and thumb warmers, windshield, toe warmers in my Sorels, hand warmers in my wool mittens, and my coffee cup plugged in, it'd have to be a near B & C Buck for me to get off the Quad and shoot it in this cold weather!

[Bugle M In]

The rut is in full swing! If you keep going out, your chances of wacking a decent 4 point are real good right now! I've been hearing a few story's in the last week of some real nice looking bucks, think I might try to brave the elements in the morning and go for a rip up the mountain on the Quad. But even with a electric vest, hand and thumb warmers, windshield, toe warmers in my Sorels, hand warmers in my wool mittens, and my coffee cup plugged in, it'd have to be a near B & C Buck for me to get off the Quad and shoot it in this cold weather!

I can think of a few other parts to place those hand warmers as well, was cold out there for sure!