elk season opened up north yesterday

[Schmaus]

Looks like there is an open season on elk up north until the end of march

http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2005-2009/2007ENV0023-000270.htm

[Nails]

sounds like there must a problem there, wish I could be there, awesome opportunity to beat the winter blues.

[talver]

whats next a antlerless moose season next?????

[Jetboat]

Too bad they didn't open everything up when all the folks were up here last fall. Then we wouldn't have to watch deer & elk herds slowly starve to death, right? But hey that's alright, we had another 3" of snow last night. With more snow/cold forecasted and no end in sight it should help speed up the deaths of the starving pregnant does & cow elk. If it was up to me, for muleys in region 7B, you'd have to harvest a doe & have it compulsary inspected before being issued a buck licence. As for elk, have an any-elk season from Sept 1-15 and branched antlered bulls (3pt) open until November 30. Then after the late winter/spring inventories are compiled, make the necessary adjustments for the following season. But I'm only a resident hunter of the north Peace who has witnessed the game population fluctuations for the past 25 years, so what the hell would I know, right?

[The Hermit]

Lucky guys that have the time to get up there for a freezer full of the best eating on earth!! I'd be there in a heartbeat! Wonder what a flight from Vic to Ft St John would cost... hummm. ;-)

[BlacktailStalker]

I cant imagine they'd be the best eating in those conditions. Maybe similar to spawning salmon ?

[mark]

This really sucks, the elk hunting was just starting to get really good up there where i hunt!

[boxhitch]

This one includes the area around Pink Mountain. How much agricultural land is there ?

[mark]

This one includes the area around Pink Mountain. How much agricultural land is there ?

There are lots of ranches right at the bottom of pink mtn. I bet the bison are in there thick as well, with this harsh winter!

[boxhitch]

Bison hunt ! Now your talking. They do more damage each than 10 Elk.

[sparkymacker]

Hmmmm.....the kids are out school next week...I wonder if it is worth making a run up there? I still have an elk tag from last year and my son can get one.

[Mr. Dean]

That's a LOOOONG drive.
What kind of shape are they in?

I LOVE Elk steaks!

[sparkymacker]

I got some contacts from I guy who I know who went up for the anterless Mule deer opening. The ranchers are more than happy to accomodate the hunters as the game is decimating their hay supply which is low anyways. From the sounds of it the cattle will be starving next.

[300H&H]

I am off work and have the time to go. Can anyone tell me where a good place to start would be ? Should I contact the COs first or just try to find a good area ? I've never been there so it will be totally new for me. Not to mention I have yet to get a elk !#@%* What are the road & weather conditions like ? Thanks for any help you can give.

[Jetboat]

What are the road & weather conditions like ?

Lot's of snow and more forecast. Here's a pic of a typical road in the farm country 15 min north of Fort St. John taken a few days ago...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_2173.jpg

[mark]

Wow, people are warming up the lawn-mowers here in K-town! Ha, Ha!

[sparkymacker]

Looks like it is not time to bring out the Toro up there! That is unreal, the guy I was talking to that went up there said all you see of the fences is the tops of the posts sticking through the snow. What is your opinion of going up there jet?

[Jetboat]

Wow, people are warming up the lawn-mowers here in K-town! Ha, Ha!
:tongue:

Here's the Peace river valley via horse & sleigh a week ago...lot's of deer, moose & elk along the way...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_0230.jpg

About -14C...beautiful day...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_0255.jpg

My daughter with her fiance's team. Now this is the way to hunt in the late season...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_0267.jpg

[Mr. Dean]

Awesome pic's!

[hunter1947]

I don't like this open season for antlerless elk ,they should of had it during the open elk season. If the cow is pregnated ,she only has 4 months till she drops the cafe. There could be two tween males inside her ,or one female or one male ,or a single male or a single female. :frown: hunter 1947.

[Gateholio]

Wow, all and I mean ALL of the snow is gone form my yard...Altough down the valley a bit they still have lots. Always weird to see diffeent weather patterns within a 30 minute drive...8-)

I'm flying up to PG in a week, maybe I should pack a rifle:lol:

[boxhitch]

Have the bulls drop their headgear yet ? Should be a few sheds close to the hay also.

[Jetboat]

Have the bulls drop their headgear yet ?

Short answer, yup. On a side note, I saw a 5x5 muley with about a 26" spread a few days ago across the road from our place.

[30-06]

snow is pretty much all gone here.there is still TONS up there

[Rainwater]

Still waiting for pics of all the starving Elk. I wonder if kneejerk is an actual biological term?

[dawn2dusk]

those were some neat pictures of Peace country. Gotta love the diversity of BC. I cut the grass here in Victoria last weekend.

Kinda a shame to harvest game now. Surley aren't in their prime.

[Rainwater]

Sparkymacker, No the cows won't starve as they will be feeding on the Spring range where those dead Elk used to feed.

[hunter1947]

I was island deer shed hunting this weekend and i saw a fork deer with his head gear still on ,i wish the antlers would have fallen off him when he looked at a funny looking guy like me .LOL :lol: hunter 1947.

[moosehunter]

QUOTE=BCHunter]out of all the resients i called that were on the list for the elk and deer only one said they have the elk come back on a daily basis...and they live by Pink Mnt :eek: i'll pass. bear season is coming fast and the hounds are itching to get out[/QUOTE]
We were considering going up there for a hunt. If very few people are having elk problems I wonder why they would kick open this season. I saw a sh*t load of vehicles heading South today with gear but no elk. Anyone got the skinny or some ideas?

[tfl]

This open season like the opening for deer is to help out the farmer,it's not to kill all the starving animals. The farmers that have the most problems are the ones that don't let people hunt on their land, so it seems.
By opening these seasons the game department has basiclly put the ball in their court, By showing they are trying to address the problem.
The problem being alot of mild winters, lots of good farmland to feed on = lots of deer,elk and moose. Mothernature will bring things back into balance like she did 11 or 12 years ago with that big die-off due to the harsh winter.
Most of the elk I've seen have been on the peace river breaks along with deer and moose and were looking not too bad.
I even saw a moose (which are the first to drop their horns or so I thought)with one still on, as well as 3 deer (one with both still) and 2 bull elk just last weekend, which tells me they must be in not too bad a shape. Yet I saw deer on the haystacks that started to loose their horns over a month ago.
The deer that stayed on the flat lands (fields) around the hay stacks away from the large river valleys where they have probabley wintered all their life or at least the last 9 or so years, Aren't doing so well.
It really sucks being a hunter and having to see it all, but what do you do?
Just my 2 cents, (take it for what you think it's worth)

[Guido02]

Was out to look around. Shooting one of ten to 15 pregnant cow elk, standing in belly deep snow, eating at a hay bale did not do too much for me. Distance was 80 yds max. I am not sure how they taste either but I am having trouble pulling the trigger.

[Rainwater]

Then don't pull the trigger, be a sportsmen.

[Mulie_Hunter]

I actually have a moral issue with this aswell, The whole " They're Starving! Lets go kill em" really doesn't make any sense to me.

[palmer]

To add more STRESS to animals already stressed to the max....I think its passed time to hunt them and just hope they make it through. Could be very poor hunting up there for the next few years.

[willyqbc]

Then don't pull the trigger, be a sportsmen.


....and if you TRULY BELIEVE in your own mind that by taking an animal you will be helping the population as a whole...is that not part of the definition of being a true sportsman??

now the debate as to wether or not the cull is actually needed or not is another issue...but if you believe you are helping the health of the overall population by participating then you are indeed a sportsman....and if you just want some elk steaks...good on ya...you are no less a sportman in my eyes for participating in a cull.

just my opinion
Chris

[sparkymacker]

Was out to look around. Shooting one of ten to 15 pregnant cow elk, standing in belly deep snow, eating at a hay bale did not do too much for me. Distance was 80 yds max. I am not sure how they taste either but I am having trouble pulling the trigger.

I was thinking about going up there, but I had the same thought. Probably a trip you would end up wanting to forget.

[todbartell]

bow only!!!

[Rainwater]

WillyQ. That's where we will just have to agree to disagree. This is when we stand up for wildlife. Even upon request I see no photo evidence on this site of starving deer/elk and all indicators are that this so called cull is to appease the farmers which is even more distastefull. Shooting pregnant wildlife after they have eaked out and existance through a harsh winter is just NOT RIGHT! Spin 'er anyway ya want I and many others I have spoken too will not agree. Just trying to keep it civil.

[boxhitch]

[quote=Rainwater. Shooting wildlife after they have eaked out and existance through a harsh winter is just NOT RIGHT!.[/quote]

This might as well say 'don't hunt'. What does being pregnant, or not, have to do with it ?
Day to day life is a tough existence for all wildlife, regardless of weather.
There are critters dieing in peoples yards up there from lack of food. I say take the opportunity to fill the freezer, hell fill two ! It will help to take the pressure off next fall. If you don't like the term 'hunt' used in this application, then call it something else.

[Rainwater]

Boxhitch, You can sure call it what you want. I'll keep calling it a cull on behalf of the Ranching community and some hunters are bending over backwards to give it some kind of terminology to make it OK in everyones minds. As far as your pregnancy issue I'll let you figure out why we don't have seasons when they are pregnant and a few months away from birthing. PS. I'm still waiting for some photos of all these starving deer and Elk in peoples yards and have only asked, well a dozen or so times. So PLEASE just before you whack that starving pregnant cow elk feeding on that hay stack and have your photo taken with it please take a picture of it while it's alive and starving (you should have time before the stalk) and post it on here for all of us to look at.

[30-06]

WillyQ. That's where we will just have to agree to disagree. This is when we stand up for wildlife. Even upon request I see no photo evidence on this site of starving deer/elk and all indicators are that this so called cull is to appease the farmers which is even more distastefull. Shooting pregnant wildlife after they have eaked out and existance through a harsh winter is just NOT RIGHT! Spin 'er anyway ya want I and many others I have spoken too will not agree. Just trying to keep it civil.


im with ya there.

[Tinney]

Tinney, You want to call names, do it elsewhere.

[Islandeer]

Well everyone here is the result of paranoid wildlife management. When the carrying capacity of the land is reached and in this case exceeded then when you have a tough winter animals will die. Who influences MOE ? I will let you answer that one. And now after the correction those same user groups that helped pincvh the quota's will demand even tighter harvest quota's. As far as these poor animals starving well when you don't kill enough during the regular season this is the result. This will be repeated in all management units so get used to it or speak up.

[Rainwater]

Tinney, The only picture I saw on here was of healthy animals feeding on farmers haystacks and one in the ditch half eaten by coyotes, could of been road kill. If you think this cull is for the benefit of the herd and not the Ranchers your as whacky as people call you on here, but I won't call you any names. You are right about one thing, I wake up once and while at night and think about the direction everyone is heading with respect to wildlife management and it keeps me worrying. I guess being oldschool ain't gonna cut it anymore.

[jessbennett]

here we go again........:roll: if you dont like it dont participate and dont think less of or ridicule anyone who does agree with it. its funny how people are quick to judge when the beliefs arent the same as theirs. this day and age is wonderful, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and ideas.democracy is o wonderful thing and to all those that dont agree with it..... i respect your views and ideas on this... why???? because you are allowed to feel that way.............if you are for it, all the power to ya..... if i had the time id be up there being a "sportsman" myself.;-)

[Tinney]

They're pet names Clarke....I love everyone here :)

[wsm]

belly deep snow, that hardly seems like fair chase. it sounds to me as if it would be like hunting a game farm. doesn't sound like much fun.

[browningboy]

Had a good friend just get back from the hunt, sucessfull but said will never do it again, there are several reasons but not worth mentioning here as it would probably be taken out of context. One thing I was wondering, if they are wanting to eliminate some elk/deer due to winter kill etc. why are they opening up the ones on private property? These are the animals that are most likely to survive, the ones in the bush will face starvation/wolves/ etc. so this seems backwards to me, just seems like they are pleasing the farmers.

[Tinney]

The ones most likely do die are the ones in the haystacks because hay is not a nutritional feed for deer and elk, FYI.
I would be willing to bet a paycheck that deer and elk NOT habituated to haystacks are doing just fine up there.

[browningboy]

The ones most likely do die are the ones in the haystacks because hay is not a nutritional feed for deer and elk, FYI.
I would be willing to bet a paycheck that deer and elk NOT habituated to haystacks are doing just fine up there.



Could be, but what nutritional feed is out there, bark?? I know they have lasted for years etc. but I bet theres alot of winter kill off the "lands" as well, but I don't live up there so if you don't experience it on a daily level, things always look different.

[Tinney]

There's lots of things deer eat naturally....hay is not one of them. Hay has probably killed more deer in the history of man than man has.

[browningboy]

There's lots of things deer eat naturally....hay is not one of them. Hay has probably killed more deer in the history of man than man has.


You can be opening up a can of worms on that one! Anyway, the opening is plainly a meat trip, it sure isn't hunting.8)

[Tinney]

Can of worms nothing. The history has proven this time and again.

If you don't learn from history, it repeats itself.

Hay is bad for ungulates.

Meat hunt? Duh

[GoatGuy]

As far as your pregnancy issue I'll let you figure out why we don't have seasons when they are pregnant and a few months away from birthing.

We've had several seasons in the past which went straight through to Christmas which specifically targeted female deer, moose and elk. We've also had bow seasons, and still do, that continue well into december for does.

We also have LEH seasons, and probably in the future GOS, on many female animals well after they've become pregnant. Basically if you've hunted LEH antlerless moose or elk during or after September you've been hunting pregnant females. Same goes with deer after the beginning of November.

We also have rifle and bow hunts that put pressure on bucks right in the middle of or the tail of the rut when they're at their weakest; throw a bunch of snow on top of that and going out and shooting a 4pt really from the roadside ain't much different than shooting one in a field - never mind the any buck season of the past or the any deer/any elk seasons that I've been finding digging through old regs.

This is the way many people hunt in BC and is a fact of life. In the prairies its standard. This probably doesn't line up with your moral compass either, or maybe you haven't examined your actions. In any case it certainly doesn't make it wrong.


So why is it so much worse now? All doe seasons that have occured in the Okanagan for bow were and still are during and right after the rut, right in the middle of winter range - prime hunts where concentrations are high and hunting's good! All kinds of complaints about the mule doe bow season being eliminated, losing opporunity, when it is not much of a "hunt", when seen through your eyes, for many who were hunting on private lands and in orchards (probably easier than up north). Even for those hunting in the bush a december bow/doe season is a piece of cake if you get a good dump of snow. Hunting on winter range in December are 100 deer days and the deer certainly don't carry the same wits as they do in September.

Ironically I haven't heard anyone complain about any of the above hunts yet????? Why is that? Does two months make a big difference????


If you have another reason fire away; I don't think this one holds too much weight (kinda like NP's! :lol: )

[horshur]

There's lots of things deer eat naturally....hay is not one of them. Hay has probably killed more deer in the history of man than man has.

Tin---Elk do pretty good on hay---but got to side with yah on deer---poison---were lucky there are any deer left in ranching country.:roll:

[J_T]

I have to throw my hat in this ring too.

Are the elk really starving (I mean, not going to make it to spring?)
Or are we placating the wants of the ranching community.

We have very similar issues in the Eask Kootenay of course. Hay feeding versus creating transitional range is a huge topic when animals are in tough.

In part, when it gets to this, it is partly a sign of 1) poor wildlife management and 2) poor management of the rancher wildlife conflict.

I do agree with those that feel a hastily called hunt is a poor management decision.

A transitional and critical winter range strategy appears to be required.

JT

[hunter1947]

They should just leave everything alone. Like you said ,will they make it to spring ???? maybe 50% will ???. I just think that this is a nother way of ether filling there pockets with money or thinning out pest elk around the farmers fields.???? hunter 1947.

[Rainwater]

Where have you guys been. Deer in our Valley eat green Alfalfa, daily and survive just fine thank you. I never see them in the stacks because we don't have the severe winters. Have seen whities near Osoyoos in a Hay stack.

[GoatGuy]

Where have you guys been. Deer in our Valley eat green Alfalfa, daily and survive just fine thank you. I never see them in the stacks because we don't have the severe winters. Have seen whities near Osoyoos in a Hay stack.

??????????????????????????????????

[Fisher-Dude]

I'll agree with GG on this one. The late bow season on female deer means they are being shot while pregnant, so I cannot see pregnancy as an excuse to dispute the northern hunts.

Too often I think people oppose others' opportunities to hunt because they think it means one less animal for themselves. Come to me when you have exhausted all reasonable efforts to get your own game, and have been totally unsuccessful with no chances to harvest because someone else shot all the animals off, and we'll talk. Until then, embrace opportunity that gets folks out hunting.

[Jetboat]

The antlerless deer/elk harvest is too little, too late for many local ranchers. The drought of last year very severely limited the availablity of feed. A lot of cattle producers have to purchase feed from neighbours who have feed surplus to their needs. Here's just one small example. A cattle producer friend of mine made a deal last fall with his neighbour to buy 150 bales to feed his herd during spring until the pastures are open. Fine. He was all set. Until the other day. The neighbour plowed a trail into the field where the spring bales were stacked and you can guess what they found. There were 300 round bales fenced off beside the bush only about 100 remained. His neighbour doesn't have enough feed for his own cattle now, let alone surplus bales to sell. The farming/ranching community is getting pissed and unless something is done, there will be a lot of deer & elk shot and left to rot by frustrated people who are protecting their livelyhood. At least with this open season, the meat will be utilized. Also, those of you who are cutting your lawns and watching the girls run around with halter tops on, have to understand that it's been -16C with tons of snow up here. The night before last, it was -25C at my place. It's not spring, it's late winter around this country. Perhaps if you lived up here you would have a different perspective on what it's like. Thank you, rant off :lol:

[boxhitch]

A cattle producer friend of mine made a deal last fall with his neighbour to buy 150 bales to feed his herd during spring until the pastures are open. Fine. He was all set. Until the other day. The neighbour plowed a trail into the field where the spring bales were stacked and you can guess what they found. There were 300 round bales fenced off beside the bush only about 100 remained. His neighbour doesn't have enough feed for his own cattle now, let alone surplus bales to sell.
While I do agree with having a season on critters, to clean out some of the over-pop'ed private property, I also think the farmers should be doing more to protect their own livelihood, without asking for a gov't handout to do it. There are deterrents available to them to keep feed protected. Electric fencing comes to mind.

[Rainwater]

Still waiting for some pics of the starving deer. Sorry guys but really there is a difference between a sperm swimmin around looking for an egg and a fetus ready to spring out to life. I remember a video from Princeton when the Natives shot some Elk at this time. The guy was holding up a fetus (calve) and people were not impressed. It was part of there heritage to provide an unborn calve, in our region unborn sheep are a thing. Don't bitch when you see them doin' it if it is just OK with you guys. Put some money together to help the farmers fence their stacks or just keep bein' spin doctors to make you feel better about it. I guess we can look forward to more Feb, Mar and April hunts with attitudes like you guys have. Great fodder for the anti's.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sorry guys but really there is a difference between a sperm swimmin around looking for an egg and a fetus ready to spring out to life. ...... I guess we can look forward to more Feb, Mar and April hunts with attitudes like you guys have....... Great fodder for the anti's.

Sounds like an old abortion debate that doesn't have a resolution here, but a fetus is a fetus is a fetus, one inch long or ten inches long. If you told your wife she wasn't really pregnant when she was puking with 5th week morning sickness, you likely wouldn't father any more children! :lol: Just a little bit pregnant? Yeah.

Hopefully the bios (new one!) in the area can do some better planning and let the hunters harvest a bit more liberally in the GOS (and maybe in a COVETED BOW SEASON TOO!). From what I've heard, it sounds as though this is in the works.

The anti's will make fodder from anything, including knee deep goose shit in our parks. My reply to any anti who quotes this situation is really very straightforward: it's a classic example of what happens when hunting ISN'T allowed and the game animals starve to death and raid farms on which the majority of people rely for their FOOD. Slam-dunk convincing argument IMO.

[Rainwater]

Ride the painted pony let the.... still waiting for pics of the starving deer.

[Tinney]

Where have you guys been. Deer in our Valley eat green Alfalfa, daily and survive just fine thank you. I never see them in the stacks because we don't have the severe winters. Have seen whities near Osoyoos in a Hay stack.

I'm with GG here

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????

GREEN ALFALFA is not HAY!

You don't see them in stacks because they aren't habituated to the stacks. The deer don't know that eating hay is killing them, all they know is that they're getting a full belly the easy way!

[Gateholio]

Those that are against this season because of pregnancy issues should refrain from any later season hunitng season trips.

There may be some small difference between a doe carrying a 3 month old fetus and a 1-1.5 month old fetus, but not much.

[Browningmirage]

Fisher dude is right, a fetus is a fetus is a fetus, and lordy lordy can noone get through to you Rainwater, you seem to be getting pissed off for no reason.

Heres a beginners lesson on how carrying capacity works...it was in your core course manual.

A habitat can only support so many individuals...when that number is exceeded; starvation, disease, and predators come out and decrease numbers. Its all natural.

What happens if a lot of natural predators are taken care of (by farmers protecting their livestock)? The carrying capacity doesnt change dramatically, but the mechanisms to keep the population at optimum levels are taken away (sure there may be enough feed due to artificial reasons, such as hay) however, the carrying capacity has been exceeded, and now unhealthy populations exhist (not necessarily starving ones...you do the math ive provided enough info here.

Dont impose your morals on other people people, as long as it is done within the law, you have no right, none whatsoever. While a major part of Canadian governance lies in people opposing something they dont believe in, dont even start if your unwilling to try and change something.

I am against many things this country has recently passed, most of them moral issues. I am acting out against them...are you? If not...ill leave the rest up to you

[Sitkaspruce]

One other thing you all have to think about here is that when a winter like this hits, a lot of females will abort their fetus in order to survive. It will be interesting to see how many fawns/calves to does/cows will the ratio be. Mother nature can be cruel. It is after all the survival of the fittest.

One other thing, we are all hunters and to read and see each other making comments about one's choice just makes it easier for the anti's to be divide and conquer. Whether you agree or disagree with another's choice, you should only be making comments that support the hunting community.

Oh yea, I'm all for shooting animals to eat, at anytime there is an open season as long as it is done for sound biological reasons.

[Fisher-Dude]

One other thing you all have to think about here is that when a winter like this hits, a lot of females will abort their fetus in order to survive. It will be interesting to see how many fawns/calves to does/cows will the ratio be. Mother nature can be cruel. It is after all the survival of the fittest.


Very true. So in essence, those who shoot female deer in the late bow season would tend to take a higher percentage of pregnant deer than those who shoot females in March after a stressful few months, since some will have aborted their fetuses (feti?) later in the year. The percentage of does that are pregnant should always be at its highest in the first week of December right after the rut, since for any stress reason a doe may abort at any time thereafter. Ain't this an interesting turn of events! 8-)

[horshur]

Tin---do a search and post info regarding hay being bad for deer like you stated(death) cause I can't find that info. Farmed deer are fed Alfalfa hay.
What I did find was that they are not well adapted to hay and process it ineffiently but it is among the forage they feed farmed deer(Whitetail and Mule deer). See posted link read down to the paragraph titled "HAY"

http://albertadeer.com/library/articles/general.htm

[Tinney]

Oh so now we should be feeding deer hay because game farms do it? Smokin hot idea! Hell, why don't we just shut down hunting in BC and High-fence it all since deer like hay so much.....game farming is the new age man!
I don't care if you can't find it. HAY is NOT a natural deer feed.

Enough of this crap already.

[horshur]

Oh so now we should be feeding deer hay because game farms do it? Smokin hot idea! Hell, why don't we just shut down hunting in BC and High-fence it all since deer like hay so much.....game farming is the new age man!
I don't care if you can't find it. HAY is NOT a natural deer feed.

Enough of this crap already.

Tin---google search and post the info---it's that easy. Just prove me wrong-- If it's common knowledge it should be easy to find shouldn't it???
Also---except that cultivated hay has been developed and modified for certain traits all it is sun and wind dried grasses, sedges and legumes. Deer naturally do feed on dry grasses, sedges and legumes.

[Tinney]

Do your own goddamn research! I've got enough of my own to finish! :evil:

Again, I'll refer you to the statements I've made in the past....

I'm not intent on proving anything to any of the uneducated armchair biologists on this website!

[Sitkaspruce]

Deer are traditionally browser, like moose, so their stomach is used to eating woody twigs. That what Island deer feed on.
Elk are grazers and traditionally feed on grasses and the such.

Thats not to say that they do not eat other types of food, it is just what they are best at getting the best nutrition from.

BC Bucks may be able to help on this as he is a biologist.

[willyqbc]

According to this article, if deer eat hay all the time and the microbes in their stomach are used to it they can do fine on hay...however if they suddenly switch from a different food source over to hay the microbes in the stomach cannot adapt fast enough and the deer can actually "starve with a full stomach". So in essence if the deer have been living in the peace river breaks all year and are now forced to switch their diet to hay....they are in big trouble.

not sure if this is a credible organization or not but it is an interesting read.

http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinthewest/feeding.html

Chris

[GoatGuy]

That's right Willy I didn't want to say anything before to hijack more than I already had, but in short feeding deer hay that aren't conditioned is bad news - it can infact kill them. That's why people are discouraged from feeding deer hay in bad winters (among other things).

[dana]

Just worked out the details and I'm on my way up. Just think, I shoot 1 elk and I get 3. Gotta love fresh calf elk fried over the fire. ;) No, there is no difference to a doe or a cow being 2 weeks along to being just shy of full term. No difference at all.:rolleyes:
I too am still waiting for someone to post up photos of all these starving critters. Come on, stop beatin around the bush and get the pics up. Prove to us that this hunt is somehow more than trying to appease a bunch of whinning ranchers.

[Kirby]

Do your own goddamn research! I've got enough of my own to finish! :evil:
You make statements all the time and yet you constantly bitch and moan when somebody asks for proof.



Again, I'll refer you to the statements I've made in the past....

I'm not intent on proving anything to any of the uneducated armchair biologists on this website!

Here is a tip in science and in general conversations you need to be able to provide a source for your data. Not state "its common knowledge". If you don't wanna back up what you say don't say it.

Kirby

[Kirby]

Enough of this crap already.

Ok, bye bye(again).

Kirby

[J_T]

You make statements all the time and yet you constantly bitch and moan when somebody asks for proof.Kirby, nicely said. My thoughts exactly.


Prove to us that this hunt is somehow more than trying to appease a bunch of whinning ranchers. I have to agree with Dana here. My concern is that this is less a wildlife management decision than an effort to address rancher's issues. Doesn't anyone feel hunters are a pawn in the slaughter. It isn't a hunt.

Why not let the Nature and the predators take their natural course and reduce the population? In 1996 in the Kootenay we had a devastating winter, some ranchers and only a couple of hunting organizations provided hay feed for wildlife. Most including MOE didn't agree with hay feeding. What the MOE did do quickly though, was to move into the winter and transitional range and contract for the thinning of trees that would lay down and become feed for deer and elk. More natural feed. As for the starvation, we sat back and let nature take its course.

I - like many of you - am not concerned about the gestation of the animal, I just don't think we want to bring abortion etc into a hunting chat room.

JT

[Browningmirage]

IF people are so upset about the opening, then do what the farmers did...whine and complain to get the opening closed. Its probably getting old, but sitting and complaining, whining and sniveling, downtalking other hunters...on this forum...and nothing gets done

[pupper]

I personally think its better to let someone, ie. hunters, shoot and eat an elk rather then letting the elk starve and rot in farmers fields.

Justin

[30-06]

Ok, bye bye(again).

Kirby

well said..

[Tinney]

Blah blah blah. Kirby your usefulness on this forum amazes me :lol: The personal attacks are getting old. Try contributing somehting for once.

Explain to me why i should back up something that is scientific fact? Why should I have to explain it to you? If you think I'm wrong, go prove me wrong. I'm right. Hay is bad for deer.

Will someone please go take pictures of straving deer to shut up the peanut gallery?

[30-06]

Blah blah blah. Kirby your usefulness on this forum amazes me :lol: The personal attacks are getting old. Try contributing somehting for once.

Explain to me why i should back up something that is scientific fact? Why should I have to explain it to you? If you think I'm wrong, go prove me wrong. I'm right. Hay is bad for deer.

Will someone please go take pictures of straving deer to shut up the peanut gallery?


Go Cry In The Corner...To Shut Up The Peanut Gallery..YOU R THE PEANUT GALLERY BUD

[Tinney]

Mmhmmm....deterioration to an attack on me. Classic HBC members :lol: Get over yourself

[30-06]

Mmhmmm....deterioration to an attack on me. Classic HBC members :lol: Get over yourself

you just make it so easy

[horshur]

Do your own goddamn research! I've got enough of my own to finish! :evil:

Again, I'll refer you to the statements I've made in the past....

I'm not intent on proving anything to any of the uneducated armchair biologists on this website!

tinn -- Check out in the library-- Norman Vincent Peale "How to win friends and influence people"--I'd highly recomend you read it.;)

[kbb]

Let's hear some of the numbers.
I need some info.
Thinking of heading up there too. :lol:

[Tinney]

Win friends and influence people? On HBC? Yeah right! LMAO!

Why the hell would I care about a bunch of uneducated loudmouth armchair biologists on HBC?
The people I know and respect on this forum know who they are.

[Tinney]

Let's hear some of the numbers.
I need some info.
Thinking of heading up there too. :lol:

You picked a good thread to join in on. Welcome aboard kbb :)

[30-06]

Win friends and influence people? On HBC? Yeah right! LMAO!

Why the hell would I care about a bunch of uneducated loudmouth armchair biologists on HBC?
The people I know and respect on this forum know who they are.

guys lets leave poor kris alone.he might pack-up and leave AGAIN

[Tinney]

I'm waiting for someone to post something useful......

Is it possible to block member's posts so I don't have to read the junk? If there was a "report to mod" feature I could find I would have done so already.

[dana]

Back to the whole debate of this hunt, my biggest issues with it is a very slippery slope of game management to try to appease one user group such as ranchers. They had a rough year up there with the drought. Well that is life as a rancher. You can blame deer and elk all you want but the fact remains, if you are a farmer or rancher, your career is based on things way out of your control, ie the weather. As I've stated before, you start doing knee jerk wildlife management in one area of the province, what is to stop another wildlife manager from doing the same in their area. Do we want to see these so-called hunts as a norm in the province, based on using an excuse of a high snow year and get a bunch of hunters on the bandwagon justifing it in their minds because the animals are starving blah blah blah, when the real issue is rancher/wildlife conflict???? So, for those that are backing this issue, are you willing to see this same thing happen in your back yards. Should we just let them change seasons willy nilly at the spur of the moment whenever they feel like it, all because "the old bio was an asshole so therefore I'm gonna make a name for myself" kind of attitude. Where is the science???? Again, I ask this question and yet no one wants to step up and talk about the meat and potatoes of this issue. Lets bring in the abortion debate instead. Lets side step the issues. Lets play this game of 'we can't argue, we must stand unified or else the antis' bullshit. Common now. Give me a flippin break. Tell me why this hunt is needed. Tell me what the carrying capacity for the Peace is and what the numbers are right now. Tell me some cold hard facts. Are deer and elk indeed starving???? Give me some damn pics to prove your case.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

The people I know and respect on this forum know who they are.[/quote]

Thanks I know you respect me. :lol:

[dana]

And Tinney,
Pay closer attention in school there bud. You have a long way to go before you know it all.

[Browningmirage]

dont we all...dont we all

[Silent Wolf]

I am going to go and sit in the corner with some popcorn and keep watching (reading) the show:lol:

[J_T]

Dana, I couldn't agree more.

Through the 80's in the East Kootenay the ranching community successfully lobbied government for extensive harvests of elk. All in an attempt to leave more feed for the ranging cattle.

The end result was not enough elk to support a good hunt. The latter part of the 80's and the 90's saw the EK conservation groups working hard to get herd numbers back up. At what cost? How many studies where carried out?

A strategy was developed that prevented ad-hoc management. Nature ran its course many a winter. Sometimes a sad site to see, but that's nature.

Is this wildlife management up there in Reg 7 or a science project?

I'm not suggesting anyone not take advantage of the opportunity that has presented itself. I'm suggesting appropriate wildlife management requires a plan. Managing a resource.

JT

[willyqbc]

I have sent an email off to Andy Ackerman in hopes that he will respond with his reasoning for this opening...will post up any reply I get.


my biggest issues with it is a very slippery slope of game management to try to appease one user group such as ranchers.

I agree with JT, there definately needs to be a plan, but the fact of the matter is the ranchers ARE A USER GROUP in this province and their needs have to taken into consideration in that plan, thats why they sit on allocation committees etc. We cannot simply ignore their needs because we think it will inhibit the quality of our hunts. Nor is it reasonable to expect them to put up very costly high fences to protect their crops because the previous 7B wildlife manager has allowed the populations up there to get out of control. I'm sure there is a certain amount of wildlife damage that a rancher expects as part of life as a rancher....but it's crazy up there right now. Think of it this way...and be honest here.... if wildlife was costing you personally tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a year...what would you do????

and no I'm not a rancher:lol:.....might be time to walk a mile in the other guys shoes though

Chris

[dana]

Willy,
If there is a process then there would be no need for knee-jerk seasons right? Yes, ranchers are a stake-holder. Yes they should have input. This is where the rubber meets the road and the discussions take time. There are no instant fixes.

[J_T]

fact of the matter is the ranchers ARE A USER GROUP in this province and their needs have to taken into consideration in that plan, thats why they sit on allocation committees etc. We cannot simply ignore their needs because we think it will inhibit the quality of our hunts. Nor is it reasonable to expect them to put up very costly high fences to protect their crops because the previous 7B wildlife manager has allowed the populations up there to get out of control. I'm sure there is a certain amount of wildlife damage that a rancher expects as part of life as a rancher....but it's crazy up there right now. Think of it this way...and be honest here.... if wildlife was costing you personally tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a year...what would you do????
Willy, you are exactly correct. But, as a stakeholder they must be sitting at meetings. The rancher's issue of wildlife, must be high profile enough to be getting discussed and some sort of balanced approach to manage the wildlife / rancher conflict should be happening.

In the East Kootenay, most ranchers are moving to the high game fence. They don't mind deer but the elk eat to much ground. Government (our tax dollars) is paying for the fencing.

Of course that brings up the topic of when, how and how many cattle should be allowed on range land. The land that wildlife must exist on, during tough winters.

Habitat management is the key and there is a lot of it going on here.

To answer your question: If I were up there, if I were a rancher, I would understand and appreciate nature. The crown resource is much like my own cattle. It must be managed. And I'd be calling my insurance agent to see if crop depredation is covered on my policy. Bottom line, if I were a rancher, we go through good times and bad, I wouldn't see hunters as helping me at all. I'm sure the ranchers would rather see a less high profile approach to reducing wildlife numbers too.

JT

[J_T]

Gee, did Tinney finally go to bed?

[Silent Wolf]

No I think someone duct taped his mouth shut and tied his hands up so he cant type for a while. Red Green would be happy his tape is going to good use.8-)

[Kirby]

Blah blah blah. Kirby your usefulness on this forum amazes me :lol: The personal attacks are getting old. Try contributing somehting for once. I'm not here to contribute I'm here to entertain myself between hunting seasons.


Explain to me why i should back up something that is scientific fact? Why should I have to explain it to you? If you think I'm wrong, go prove me wrong. I'm right. Hay is bad for deer.

If you claim something and then back it up you should at least have the facts to back it up. If you don't have the facts your just making up crap, how usefull is that?

Kirby

[Gateholio]

Where is the science???? Again, I ask this question and yet no one wants to step up and talk about the meat and potatoes of this issue. Lets bring in the abortion debate instead. Lets side step the issues. Lets play this game of 'we can't argue, we must stand unified or else the antis' bullshit. Common now. Give me a flippin break. Tell me why this hunt is needed. Tell me what the carrying capacity for the Peace is and what the numbers are right now. Tell me some cold hard facts. Are deer and elk indeed starving???? Give me some damn pics to prove your case.

You are asking for proof and facts, but the question coudl easily be turned back- You say it's wrong, when a professional biologist has said it's okay.

So where are your proof and facts? Where is your science?




I still believe that any deer or elk taken on these openings by hunters will not amount to a drop in a bucket. A large bucket...8-)

[willyqbc]

WOW!! very fast response from Mr.Ackerman...so here ya go boys, right from the horses mouth so to speak, this is his reply to my email




Chris, the basis for the season is the following:



We have an elk population that has been constantly growing, especially on agricultural land, for the past few years.

Many of these elk have become part of a "resident" population that exists primarily on agr. land

The producers have been facing a number of pressures in the past few years including BSE, drought, an excreta ban in grain, and this year, the heaviest snowfalls since 1957.

Because of the drought, pressures on natural range, and the heavy snowfall, the elk, sometimes to the numbers of 100 or 200, are hitting haystacks, and standing crops. When they visit the haystacks, they also defile the feed thus leaving behind unusable feed.

Producers are estimating losses of up to $4million this year because of deer and elk eating their hay and feed.

This season is not long and it will deal with some of the problem.

With all of the above to consider, measures had to be taken to reduce some of the pressures on producers with long term damage to the sustainability of the herds. After a review by ministry staff and the Minister, it was determined that both hunts could occur at this time of year. We are planning to replace LEH seasons with open seasons this coming year to offer more opportunities for hunters and keep the deer and elk populations to a reasonable level on agricultural land.

Decisions are not always easy to make but the government is in the position of having to consider all sides of any issue. Conservation is always the first priority for any species and that is always taken into consideration.



Chris

[Gateholio]

I'm gussing he intended to type this:

With all of the above to consider, measures had to be taken to reduce some of the pressures on producers with out long term damage to the sustainability of the herds

:)

[willyqbc]

he still types better than you gate!!!!:lol:

Chris

[Gateholio]

he still types better than you gate!!!!:lol:

Chris


I am sitting here, weeping, because of your unkindness.:-( :-(







8)

[Rainwater]

Browningmirage, No I am not trying to impose my moral code on you or anyone on this site. HBC is for people to express how they feel, it's up to you guys to use your on moral fibre. There is a HUGE differance between a deer that has survived all winter with a fawn in her than one that has just had sex with a buck. Logging trucks, hunters, wolves all behind her and ready to give birth, whack.! I have sat on the Hunter advisory committe in Region 8 for years and don't remember having Ranchers sitting at the table unless they were disguised as hunters. Talked to local Ranchers and they never remember deer eating hay until about 15 or so years ago. They all said green alfalfa used to kill deer but they just got used to it.

[Triggerman]

Kind of a dilemna:

The farmers are losing cattle, which will be killed for meat, because the Elk ,that hunters would kill for meat, are eating the feed.

Welcome to nature. Live and let die. Either by age, starvation, the arrow or the bullet. The weak will be food for something or someone. At least hunters put the meat to good use and appreciate and honor the animal it came from.

[horshur]

My take is that it is an attempt to make the best out of a not so good situation.
While I do not have much knowledge of what goes on up there I find it easy to assume that larger herds exist because of ranchers hay anyhow--they are dependant on it and the fields that grow it. If Ranchers are left holding the bill there should be compensation or an ability for them to recoop losses---pay to hunt maybe? If the Elk and deer were an asset somehow then it would be no big deal really. As it is they are a liability. I would want them gone myself.
I don't really understand the fuss regarding the season????

[Rainwater]

Triggerman, The cattleman aren't shooting their cows just before they drop though are they. Wouldn't be much of a herd the following year would it!

[willyqbc]

I'm still confused on the whole pregnancy argument Rainy.....a doe shot in october will obviously produce as many fawns as a doe shot in february...zero. So logistically for the herd it makes no difference. So...is it that you feel because she's made it this far she "deserves" to come to full term and give birth? honestly not trying to be snide here...just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

Chris

[Mr. Dean]

Triggerman, The cattleman aren't shooting their cows just before they drop though are they. Wouldn't be much of a herd the following year would it!

I think what they're saying is that these wild animals are gonna kill off their pregger cattle for them, via starvation.

[Gateholio]

I don't really understand the fuss regarding the season????

I dont either.
:|
Under 100 deer and far less elk have been shot by hunters, this isn't going ot make a blip on the population levels.

[Mr. Dean]

I'm trying me damdest to somehow free up 5 days....

[willyqbc]

pick me up on the way by!!!:lol:

Chris

[Rainwater]

Willy, I don't take anyones comments as being snide, this is a forum for opinions and what is said on the HBC site goes nowhere in the real world. I find it almost impossible to try and explain to some people why we don't kill or have liberal hunting seasons at the same time animals are close to or are giving birth. It's just plain logistics and as an expert armchair biologists I have witnessed things that can happen to animals close to birthing that can give them many complications. Shooting, helicopters and logging can all have an effect on expectant females. We need those little ones to carry on the next generation. I'm not complaining because I'm worried about another dead animal I'm complaining because it just simply goes against common sense wildlife management. If some guys want to hunt pregnant animals in March and April under the disguise of opportunity then please come to the next hunter advisory commitee meetings with your complete rational for it and we will swing by the experts. As I have said before "I don't always know what I am talking about but I am usually right"!

[Tinney]

pick me up on the way by!!!:lol:

Chris

Me too! :lol:

I went to bed. it was late and nothing was being contributed.
To someone who said I should pay more attention, you're probably right. But I'm the one in school, at least :)

And someone still needs to explain to me why I need to appease your simple minds by backing up my statements with a slew of scientific papers that someone will just call biased anyway. I don't have to prove anything to you.

I think that's all folks. You got a well written and comprehensive reply to why the season is taking place.

Oh and I'm also still confused as to why there is a outcry about shooting does. Shooting bulls and bucks far more reduces the potential population numbers of animals anyway. What's the buck to doe ratio in your area? Shooting a buck prior to the rut that will breed 5-10 does/year and produce 15-25 offspring is much more detrimental than shooting a single doe that might produce 10 offspring in her lifetime.

Whoa! :lol:

[willyqbc]

We need those little ones to carry on the next generation.

again...if that particular doe had been shot in October there still would be no little one to carry on the next generation. So would I be right in assuming you feel that no females should be taken at any time of the year? I could wrap my head around that point of view (allthough I don't agree:) ), but I still can't understand how the stage of pregnancy has any relevance, we all know killing a female kills successive generations so why does it matter to the population numbers if she is not bred yet,1 week pregnant, or 3 months pregnant. I certainly respect your right to your opinion, I just can't connect the dots on this particular line of logic, but I've been known to be kinda thick at times!!8-)

Chris

[pupper]

... you start doing knee jerk wildlife management in one area of the province, what is to stop another wildlife manager from doing the same in their area. Do we want to see these so-called hunts as a norm in the province,...

Yah, we wouldnt want anyone to make the most of a situation by making a quick decision. We should let thousands of deer and elk die of starvation and desease instead of making an apt decision, nature takes care of itself just like it did with the pine beetle right!!!! and that worked out perfect.

Justin

[moose55]

are the cow elk not calfing wright now at this time of the season.

[Tinney]

moose55,

No, not for another few weeks at least. There is still better than 4 feet of snow on the ground in FSJ and area.

[Browningmirage]

Alrighty heres a good chunk of info, directly from a book from a rather famous wildlife biologist (Val Geist)

"Conversely the need for nutrient rich food has kept deer out of desserts and grasslands, because grasses are low in nutrients...due to multiple births in females and antler growth in males"

Hay is bad for deer???...Anyone???

[Tinney]

If you've got the time to find articles, giver hell. But I'm just plain old too stubborn and lazy to do it :lol:

[Browningmirage]

meh i just had some time to go reading, i wanted to see what Val Geist was all about...definately interesting, but that was on one of the first pages.

[Rainwater]

Just looking out my front window at 47 mulie deer feeding in a hay field, its only slightly green right now. Willy Q, I have no problem with doe harvest and have taken a few myself. It looks like now people are starting to want to "advocate" hunting 365 with no concern about when a deer might give birth. My fingers are already getting sore from saying the same thing over and over but I will re-type it. After dodging arrows and bullets, pitlampers, logging trucks, cars, wolf and coyotes, ticks and every other thing that can be thrown at a deer/elk you then have a season just before those SURVIVORS are gonna give birth under some trumped up excuse such as "great another opportunity". It's almost as if some people will take any opportunity to kill an animal even when it needs your help to survive. Either that or they are worried about being labled an anti because they are opposed. I tried to slice this up a few differant ways and it still stinks to me and have listened intently to guys trying to justify it. I look forward to these guys presenting a LEGIT new opportunity package for an any sex deer/elk hunt at calving time to the next regs meeting. This will be my last post on this topic and hope all you guys have a great weekend.

[Tinney]

Rainwater, not to try to draw you back in, but I don't think anyone is disputing that it is poor timing. Even I am somewhat in agreement that this decision could have been made sooner. However, I think this is a case of the allocated tags not being filled by hunters and it is a reaction to this. Something to think about also is that if they do in fact want to cut the herd numbers by 50%, then the most logical way to reduce numbers quickly would be to have a harvest on pregnant females, would it not? I don't really think there's much more to say here than already has been.
Kris...out

[dana]

The question still remains, why do they have to cut the numbers by 50%??? Just to appease the ranchers or is there solid science behind it??? Like I've said numerous times, I would HATE to see this kind of thing going on in other Regions. It is a slippery slope. We cut the herd up there by 50% because the farmers are hurting by the drought, what's to stop ranchers in the south from wanting the same????

[talver]

So is anyone going to post a pic of these starving elk ???????????

[curt]

well i was lucky enough to have the opportunity to take a run up there unfortunately I had some bad luck with my truck but if I could have stayed I know I would of got one no problem I hooked up with a rancher by fluke and he told me of some spots to try including a beauty peice on his own land there was an elk taken the morning we arrived from this particular ranch and they were moving around mostly right at dark but we seen lots up on the hills where the snow had blown away and they could get at some grass but wow is it winter up there some locals told me they have not had snow like this year in like twenty years it's damn deep with some snow shoes we would have scored but you cant get around at all up there right now. The animals did look very healthy even with all that snow but it helps that they are living on the hay for all the live stock it's costing the ranchers lots of extra hay right now most have absolutely no problem with guys comeing and thinning out the herds.

[Mr. Dean]

So I'd need a couple of snow machines?

[Schmaus]

I definately think snowmobiles are the answer. Theres nothing quite like shooting an elk and then seeing it pulled through the snow at 70 miles per hour by a brand new RX 1 Turbo sled.

[hunter1947]

So is anyone going to post a pic of these starving elk ??????????? Yes ,lets see some evidence of the dead ,i would like to see a couple dozen of the elk that have died ,or a movie clipping of the dead elk ???????. hunter 1947.

[brno375]

And someone still needs to explain to me why I need to appease your simple minds by backing up my statements with a slew of scientific papers that someone will just call biased anyway. I don't have to prove anything to you.

Wow Timney, do you take this attitude in your papers as well? What do your profs think of this? In any debate, you support your argument with references. Even if someone disagrees with you, you have credibility.


If you've got the time to find articles, giver hell. But I'm just plain old too stubborn and lazy to do it

Well, at least you are being honest, and I have some respect for this statement.

As for the open antlerless season, I do not have a problem with it. It replaces a LEH season (how many actually went and what was the success rate?), and all successful harvests must be inspected. By doing so, the bio keeps watch on the population and will shut the season down, if need be, for conservation issues.

Do I think the season was originally put in place to appease farmers? Yes I do, and I would be happy to lend a hand but find it hard to justify a third trip up there this season. What would be nice is if the proposed new open season next year coincides with another season like mule deer in Nov, or elk/moose in Sept/Oct. From what I have heard from locals is that the deer/elk are suffereing from collic; their bellies are full but they are plugged up.

The Queen Charlotte Islands have a deer season that runs June 1 - Feb 28, with an antlerless season that runs Sept 1 - Feb 28, and has a bag limit of 15 and a possession limit of 15. When I hunted there in Feb a few years back, it was a possession limit of 3 and a bag limit of 9. We took quite a few does, and a lot were pregnant, but no one makes a fuss about this season.

[willyqbc]

[quote][The Queen Charlotte Islands have a deer season that runs June 1 - Feb 28, with an antlerless season that runs Sept 1 - Feb 28, and has a bag limit of 15 and a possession limit of 15. When I hunted there in Feb a few years back, it was a possession limit of 3 and a bag limit of 9. We took quite a few does, and a lot were pregnant, but no one makes a fuss about this season. /QUOTE]

Excellent point Brno.....so how bout it folks...why is it ok to whack pregnant does there but not up north? From what I understand from freinds who have gone to the charlottes a few times, "ease of harvest" is about the same as this northern cull....the does are pregnant in both cases...so why is shooting pregnant charlottes deer considered a "hunt" and perfectly moral and ethical while this northern cull is causing sucjh contreversy??

Thanks for the fresh perspective Brno..this could get interesting again!!:)

Chris

[hunter1947]

I don't believe on shooting any animal that is pregnant period ,there has to be some other way of controlling any kind of animal population. hunter 1947.

[Tinney]

Wow Timney, do you take this attitude in your papers as well? What do your profs think of this? In any debate, you support your argument with references. Even if someone disagrees with you, you have credibility.



Well, at least you are being honest, and I have some respect for this statement.

As for the open antlerless season, I do not have a problem with it. It replaces a LEH season (how many actually went and what was the success rate?), and all successful harvests must be inspected. By doing so, the bio keeps watch on the population and will shut the season down, if need be, for conservation issues.

Do I think the season was originally put in place to appease farmers? Yes I do, and I would be happy to lend a hand but find it hard to justify a third trip up there this season. What would be nice is if the proposed new open season next year coincides with another season like mule deer in Nov, or elk/moose in Sept/Oct. From what I have heard from locals is that the deer/elk are suffereing from collic; their bellies are full but they are plugged up.

The Queen Charlotte Islands have a deer season that runs June 1 - Feb 28, with an antlerless season that runs Sept 1 - Feb 28, and has a bag limit of 15 and a possession limit of 15. When I hunted there in Feb a few years back, it was a possession limit of 3 and a bag limit of 9. We took quite a few does, and a lot were pregnant, but no one makes a fuss about this season.

HuntingBC.ca and my scholastic papers are two very separate entities my friend ;) I can't see a purpose in citing sources on a forum board such as this. :lol:

[Tinney]

I don't believe on shooting any animal that is pregnant period ,there has to be some other way of controlling any kind of animal population. hunter 1947.

There is......did you put in for an antlerless tag or participate in the antlerless season during the GOS in oct/nov? The other plan failed...

[hunter1947]

No i did not. The season should open up for cow elk or deer in july and oug ,that way you would not be killing a pregnet animal and then you would see if the cow or deer had young ones buy there side then get rid of the cows that don't have young. hunter 1947.

[Tinney]

Well I think that makes it pretty clear.

[Mr. Dean]

In reg 2 you can hunt deer through Jan 15 (select MU's w/ restrictions), either sex...

[bighornbob]

I heard Andy Ackerman talk this weekend at the sheep show and he brought up some important comments. Although he is a wildlife bio his boss in Victoria still makes the final call and that call is to make everybody happy. That means making farmers and hunters happy. This hunt or cull whatever you want to call it will by no means eliminate all the elk or any hunter oppurtunities in the fall. His main concern is the animals conservation not seeing a 200 point muley in every feild or that you can tag out in the fall in one day.

He gave of numbers of animals and I cant remember exactly what they are but there are way more elk and mule deer now then there was a few years ago hence the hunt this winter to help out the farmers.

He also said that this fall a lot of the LEH seasons for does and cows will be replaced with regular seasons so hopefully hunters can kill in the fall and the winter. There will be longer buck seasons and earlier seasons in the mountain areas. So hopefully some deer will be killed before they come down and winter on some of the fields.


Some people compare this to the elk hunting in the late 80's in the koots. Yes elk numbers dropped but was the seaon ever closed, did you miss any elk hunting due to it. Before all the antlerless tags you were able to drive to your nearest field or clearcut and tag out in the first morning of your hunt. Well this ended but you could still go up into the mountains and try your luck hunting a 6 point elk. When you mention elk hunting people imagine seeing a large bull herding cows on an open slide on a cool brisk morning. Not too many will mention dring around looking for a 3 point bull wandering around. So even with all the elk killed we did not lose any elk hunting, sure it may have got tougher for a few but we were still able to hunt and the animals were never in any danger of becoming endangered and look at it now the best elk hunting that area has ever seen.

BHB

[Browningmirage]

Well I think that makes it pretty clear.

Yes...very clear...

The thing is, seasons in August dont address problems now,

kinda akin to offering a flu vaccine...6 months after flu season, it doesnt deal with the now problem.

Look at the big picture, not just the small one. Sure the elk and deer are killed while they are pregnant, what does this help stop in the future???? well many things; for example, roadkill, disease, etc etc. Theres a bigger picture than OMG shes pregnant, i cant believe i shot her, and it is on an ecosystem level not just a farmfield level.

Also understand that in the world of ecology, more is not necessarily better...there is much more to look at

For example look at fish hatcheries; they seemed like a grand idea back in the day. Evidence is arising that they dont reproduce as effectively, their genetics are inferior, and they drag down fitness of an entire population: Plain and simple they are detrimental to wild populations. If policy makers had looked at the big picture, they would have possibly realised some of this, and maybe have considered different methods. By looking only at elk and deer populations, you are missing that there are more animals in an ecosystem; animals that may be hurt by such large numbers of deer and elk (no im not talking anything farm related).

[hunter1947]

If there is a problem now ,we just have to bite the bullet and do what we have to do down the road to thin out and control the cow elk. Can someone tell me why there is no male season open at this time of the year ??????. To have a well balanced elk population you need 20 bulls to 100 cows. 7-20 and others regions sounds like the ratio is out of whack ????. :roll: hunter 1947.

[willyqbc]

these culls are not specific to male or female...it is simply "antlerless"

Chris

[hunter1947]

these culls are not specific to male or female...it is simply "antlerless"

Chris Still does not answer my question as i said above. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif hunter 1947.

[Browningmirage]

If there is a problem now ,we just have to bite the bullet and do what we have to do down the road to thin out and control the cow elk. Can someone tell me why there is no male season open at this time of the year ??????. To have a well balanced elk population you need 20 bulls to 100 cows. 7-20 and others regions sounds like the ratio is out of whack ????. :roll: hunter 1947.

Its a bit trickier, while some still havent dropped antlers, alot have. I dont know about you, but getting close enough to see its wang isnt high on my to do list

[MattB]

I would guess that its due to the fact that they dont want people just targeting the bulls...They want to reduce the pop'n. To do that shoot the females.

[hunter1947]

It sounds like you can shoot anything ???? if so then that is another reason the elimination period should be in july and Aug ,then they can see what is a bull and what isn't. hunter 1947.

[Browningmirage]

It sounds like you can shoot anything ???? if so then that is another reason the elimination period should be in july and Aug ,then they can see what is a bull and what isn't. hunter 1947.

But if it doesnt matter what you are shooting, i dont see a problem having the season now...itll be more effective anyway

[hunter1947]

The first post ,the link states that antlerless season only ,this tells me that the management is not doing there job right to manage the elk herds near private land ,why did they let it go on this long before doing something about it ???? http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif hunter 1947.

[300 wsm]

they are not thinking of the herds they r doin simply so the crops dont suffer with the snow pack and the animals agriculturally theyll be in the shitsss

[hunter1947]

they are not thinking of the herds they r doin simply so the crops dont suffer with the snow pack and the animals agriculturally theyll be in the shitsss I see this but why only cows and not bulls ,they bouth do the same damage don't they ??????. am i missing something hear ????? :roll: hunter 1947.

[300 wsm]

we are all missin the facts behind this they jus give us what they decide to interms of facts but hey if i had the time id go up with a bow to take a calf

[Tinney]

It sounds like you can shoot anything ???? if so then that is another reason the elimination period should be in july and Aug ,then they can see what is a bull and what isn't. hunter 1947.

You didn't go shoot a tasty cow in october....neither did the other 200 hunters they expected to show up (Guessing nubers here).
Uh-oh.....didn't meet our harvest numbers and we're having the winter from hell....better do something!
So they pissed off a bunch of namby pamby trophy hunters who faint at the sight of a fetus.....whoopdy do.

[Meatman]

I got 2 in the shop tonight from a couple of guys that went up for spring break. They dressed out at 300lbs each, there isn't much fat but the muscle mass is still there. They shouldn't turn out too bad.

I cant imagine they'd be the best eating in those conditions. Maybe similar to spawning salmon ?

[Schmaus]

Thats not too bad the ones we got a couple of years ago in Dec were only around 330 each we got three cows. They were excellant eating.

[tmarschall]

Tinney

So they pissed off a bunch of namby pamby trophy hunters who faint at the sight of a fetus.....whoopdy do.

That is certainly part of the equation. Down here with all the Axis does running around it is something you have to get use to. They have no season of estrus. They cycle about a month after they drop the last fawn, regardless of the time of year. They multiply like rabbits so does are a must harvest to control the population. They should think about the overall good it does for the population, don't worry about feelings... I doubt the wolves ask the cows if they are carrying!!!!

[Tinney]

OK don't get me wrong.....they do take all different perspectives into consideration.....but ultimately, the decision is made for the health of the herd (hopefully) and not as a PR move.

[ryanhuntslots]

two down last weekend , meat looks great ,cant wiat for the bar-b-q

[30-06]

Anyone Have Any Pic On The Elk,Moose, Or Deer Up There.Im Interested In What The Animals Are Looking Like.Hopefulyl The Weather Turns Soon

[jessbennett]

atta boy ryan...:D ......