Poaching???

[steepNdeep]

Hunting has become a big business for some people and when there is money involved, some are tempted to cross that line...

Would you do business with someone that was convicted of poaching?

Would it change things if you had been doing business with them before they were convicted or before you knew about it?

[mark]

What type of business are you talking about? Would I hire him as an outfitter, no. Would I build him a house, or sell him a car, why not.

[Chuck]

Geez that's a tough one...and what if it's someone you hold near & dear? It's kinda like the question "Is it ok to lie?" or is the cup half full or half empty. Seriously folks, my best guess would be to get away from them - look out for yourself and loved ones, your integrity, and your sanity so you can sleep well and carry on to HUNT another day! My 2 cents.

[steepNdeep]

What type of business are you talking about?

Hunting businesses - guides, equipment, etc.

[bigwhiteys]

If someone has been convicted of a serious wildlife offence they have absolutely zero business working in the hunting/outfitting industry.

Just my personal opinion.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[WoodOx]

If someone has been convicted of a serious wildlife offence they have absolutely zero business working in the hunting/outfitting industry.


Fully agree. forget about hunting - if a corporation offers a fradulent/misinformed public offering etc, they too shol dbe removed from theindustry. Obviously, further political issues arise when power and law come into play!

[lapadat]

"If someone has been convicted of a serious wildlife offence they have absolutely zero business working in the hunting/outfitting industry.

Just my personal opinion."

I agree with Carl on this one.

I would consider the nature of the offence. Was it a stupid mistake or was there an obvious attempt to profit from the resource?

I think there is a big difference between a 'fail to cancel species licence' conviction versus guiding without a licence or hunt wildlife during closed season, hunt with a light, etc

[bigwhiteys]

I would consider the nature of the offence. Was it a stupid mistake or was there an obvious attempt to profit from the resource?

Definitely consider the nature of the offence...

eg.. The C. Bighorn that was poached out of the farmers field this year... I would consider that serious and when caught a very clear message should be sent...

Carl

[WoodOx]

Carl

Did anything come of that poaching?
Do u still have picturesof the Ram poached - or was it someone else on the forum..

[Nails]

My brother and I got elk draws in 2001 for cr and conuma. We meet up with this fellow how had an elk tag also for cr. He seem of good sorts and we shared info. A few days later, this fellow shot an elk with his bow and we helped along with other people looking for the elk,it was never recovered.

He took this loss real hard I guess and cross the line shooting an 6x6 elk with a rifle and making it look like an arrow shot it , ( He had never watch forensic files tv show). The Co's were informed and were waiting for him when he came out of the bush with elk, he was charged with poaching.


He seemed like a nice guy, but unfortunately I would never hunt with him or use his services as guide/outfitter.

[bigwhiteys]

Carl Did anything come of that poaching?
Do u still have picturesof the Ram poached - or was it someone else on the forum..


I do not know... I think it was Stone Sheep Steve that posted it up here.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There was one lead over on Huntshoot(thanks to Cariboo for sticking it at the top) from an Alaskan State Trooper. They were working in conjunction with Washington State Game officials and caught some guys with several poached trophies including, what he thought, may have been the ram in question. Haven't heard anything more.

Here's the link back to the story and pic.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=9182

SSS

[WoodOx]

thanks a bundle steve

[GoatGuy]

Hunting has become a big business for some people and when there is money involved, some are tempted to cross that line...

Would you do business with someone that was convicted of poaching?

Would it change things if you had been doing business with them before they were convicted or before you knew about it?


Depends on the conviction?????


Bring it into the real world.


Speeding ticket vs. a serial killer.


Get it?

Things getting haywire in your part of the country?

[dana]

Steep,
I see you had this posted on MM and she's been nuked this morn. Always nice when ol' bobcat goes on his tangents eh? ;) It was probably just your timing as the official CODOW press release came out last week on DeerKing, who at one time was very respected on MM, but not now. His poachin has created many disillusioned MM members. I'm sure Bobcat was just thinkin you were creating yet another thread on the subject of DK.
As to your question, I think the degree of the offense definately plays a roll into the decision making of whether or not to continue doing business or even maintaining a friendship. If you look at the DK thread you'll see numerous people saying they will maintain their friendship and are supporting him through his hardships, even though they all say what he did was repulsive and unjustifiable. Sometimes friendships go through hardtimes and yet the friendships still remain. You can relate wildlife offenses to other criminal activity. Do you abandon a friend that is arrested for a DUI???? It's dead wrong and you don't support the action but you may chose to help your friend instead of cutting off ties to him. Now if the DUI meant he killed family or friends of yours in an accident, you may feel totally different. It's the severity of the offense that dictates your final decision.

[steepNdeep]

Steve - I posted this on a few sites, just to see the different attitudes. I hadn't looked at MM since last fall. Was Deer King the guy that wrote that book on Muleys back in the day?

GG - I was actually thinking of Glen Berry of Berry Thunder Bugles / Videos and his incident with an elk in Idaho. I own a Thunder Bugle now and love it, but I don't think I'll buy another one... http://huntshoot.coastangler.com/hunting/images/smilies/frown.gif

Here's the story:

IDAHO FALLS - Filming the shooting of a big 6 x 6 bull elk in Idaho is something that should have been the perfect film subject for Glen Berry, owner of Big Bull Productions, a company that specializes in the producing videos of big game hunts all around the globe. The problem was that Berry was hunting the bull with a Montana tag! While the video that witnesses reported seeing being shot was never recovered, their precise GPS (Global Positioning System) marking of the kill site and nearly instantaneous reporting of the incident via cell phone to IDFG Senior Conservation Officer Lew Huddleston, helped earn Berry a film credit for poaching.

On September 19, 2005, witnesses observed Berry kill the big 6 x 6 bull elk approximately ½ a mile inside Idaho. The site was astride the Idaho side of the Continental Divide, so little doubt could have existed as to what state the party was hunting. Additional confirmation regarding Berry's knowledge of the exact location of the kill site was confirmed by the fact that he purchased an Idaho elk tag after the bull had been shot!

The witnesses observed the kill site and recorded its location with a GPS and immediately reported the information to Officer Huddleston. This information and the ensuing investigation resulted in a 27 hour-long work day for Huddleston, something that is not all that uncommon for an Idaho Conservation Officer during the fall hunting season!

Whereas some film stars reap millions for their productions, Berry ended up costing him! He pled guilty to the four charges; Possession of an unlawfully taken big game animal, Hunting without an Idaho elk permit, Failure to validate his elk tag, and Violating the U.S. Forest Service Travel Plan. The penalties were the maximum for the possession, $1,000 plus court costs, $750 civil penalty, 180 days in jail and 3 years license revocation. The other three violations resulted in $9,000 in fines, plus court costs! Because Idaho is a member of the Wildlife Violator Compact, Berry will also not be able to hunt as part of his filming during the next three years in any of the 20 other member states!

Because his son Chad Berry was part of this big game shooting gone bad, he is scheduled for trial on possession of unlawfully taken animal in Clark County in January.

Here's a link to the source.
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/re...fm?NewsID=2894 (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=2894)

[Will]

Well I wouldn't buy a Used Car from someone that was charged with resetting odometers..........:redface:

And I probably wouldn't Hire an Outfitter/Guide that had "Known" Wildlife Poaching charges either ;-)

However I guess every incident deserves it's Own conciderations.:-|

I do know some 100% stand up guys that through 100% Honest errors on thier Part that have in the past been charged under the Wildlife act.:redface:
They turned themselves in when thier errors became apparent to them.

Do I still Hunt with these Guys ?........You bet your A$$.

[dana]

Steep,
Deerking was a wildlife photographer and hunting consultant from CO that was a very active member of MM over the last 5 or 6 years. He was a internet legend for killing big bucks and filming big bucks. He was very well liked and made a ton of friendships with MM members. It took a good year for the case to work through the system and finally after all the rumors and speculation the official press release came out last week.

ANTLER FEVER’ DROVE COLORADO RESIDENT TO POACHING
Jeff Coldwell, 43, of Firestone, Colorado recently pled guilty to poaching charges
In May of 2006, Jeff Coldwell pleaded guilty to illegal possession of three or more deer in Weld County. In addition to the loss of the illegally taken wildlife, he forfeited his muzzleloader and the court fined him $7,500 with 36 months probation. Coldwell also pled guilty to abuse of public records in Adams County and received a 2 year deferred sentence for false statements made regarding a bear license. The courts donated a portion of his fine to Operation Game Thief.
The abuses also led the Colorado Wildlife Commission to suspend Coldwell’s privilege of applying for, purchasing, or exercising the benefits conferred by all DOW licenses for 20 years. His license privileges are also suspended in 22 Wildlife Violator Compact states.
It all began with a hunch. Wildlife Officer Windi Padia contacted Jeff Coldwell while on ATV patrol in Game Management Unit 20 during the 2005 muzzleloader season. Coldwell had a muzzleloader, but no hunting license in his possession. Noticing a clump of deer hair near his truck, Padia inquired further, but Coldwell denied taking a deer. Coldwell was visibly nervous throughout the contact and told Padia he had been hunting with a family member who had a deer license for GMU 18, about seven miles to the west and over the Continental Divide. After checking the records for Coldwell’s license, Officer Padia found that it was valid for GMU 20 only.
Additional Wildlife Officers, Aimee Ryel and John Koehler, were engaged to conduct interviews in Coldwell’s hometown, whereupon he admitted he had taken a large mule deer buck illegally in GMU 18 and had already transported the cape out of the unit by backpack. Another deer was shot by the licensed family member and both animals were left to rot. Officers hiked to the kill site and located the trophy-quality skinned buck, as well as a quartered buck. The meat was only salvageable on one of the animals.
Now, the full arm of the law reached in--a search warrant was obtained for Coldwell’s residence yielding evidence that Coldwell used another family member's license to tag a buck in 2000. Padia seized Coldwell’s computer and found further evidence of a wildlife violation--emails from Coldwell showed that he had gone bear hunting in 2005 and finding that people were camped near his hunting spot, promptly told a representative from the DOW that he was not able to go on his bear hunt due to medical issues. Six bear preference points were reinstated to Coldwell based on his statements. This fraudulent activity led Officer Padia to charge him with abuse of public records. After disposition of the case in Adams County, his bear preference points were revoked.
In connection with the case, two members of Jeff Coldwell’s family have received citations for wildlife violations and have chosen to pay their fines.
One poaching leads to proof of another
Evidence also seized from Coldwell’s computer revealed information from a 2003 Trophy Hunter magazine article depicting Coldwell in Fox Park, also in GMU 18, with a harvested buck. This evidence prompted Officer Padia to obtain another search warrant for his residence. The buck in question was seized and it was determined that Coldwell poached it in 2003 in GMU 18 during muzzleloader season. He did not have a license for GMU 18 that year.
“Transferring licenses, a form of ‘party hunting’, has severely negative impacts on our wildlife,” said Officer Windi Padia. “Hunting opportunities are regulated for a reason—any additional opportunity created by a poacher is one less opportunity for an ethical hunter. Everyone who values our wildlife should know that poaching doesn’t pay.”
You can help stop poaching. If you see a poaching incident, report it. Poaching is a crime against you, your neighbor, and everyone else in the state of Colorado. Call 1-877-COLO-OGT toll-free or Verizon cell phone users can just dial #OGT. If you'd like, you can e-mail us at game.thief@state.co.us (game.thief@state.co.us).

The Colorado Division of Wildlife is the state agency responsible for managing wildlife and its habitat, as well as providing wildlife related recreation. The Division is funded through hunting and fishing license fees, federal grants and Colorado Lottery proceeds through Great Outdoors Colorado.
For more information about Division of Wildlife go to: http://wildlife.state.co.us (http://wildlife.state.co.us/).

[wjh131]

No, I don't think I would. Perhaps if it was an honest mistake. There was a guide near my hometown who is a stand up guy, good guide, excellent hunter. Anyways, this past year he guided a couple guys to above average (170+) whitetails. Then the guy takes an absolute monster (220 non-typical) after legal light on posted land. People back home don't have a clue what he was thinking. I guess he just got a little jealous or impatient. His trophy was taken away but he will still be able to guide.

[416]

I'm with GG........were talking poaching in this instance, but where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it? Truth is, most of us have at one time or another broken some laws, either knowingly or by mistake. I tend to try and live by the philosophy of not judging my fellow man.......what goes around comes tends to come back around, and very few have a claim to a perfect track record

[steepNdeep]

Dana - Wow - I remember his wildlife photos, now. That sucks for him, but it seems like the punishment fits.

What's the real story with that Ryan Hatch guy from Muley Crazy videos / magazine? I read something about him being in trouble...

[hunter1947]

I myself would not put a-side my friend ,if she or he committed an offence that i could tolerate. I would help them trough it with what advice i could give them if they ask for my help ,but i would only tolerate this crime to as certain degree before i would wash my hands with this friend of mine. hunter 1947.

[steepNdeep]

Depends on the conviction????? Bring it into the real world. Speeding ticket vs. a serial killer.

GG - By poaching I mean purposefully killing an animal illegally. I don't call a ticket for forgetting your triggerlock or license "poaching".

[sealevel]

Theres reasons sometimes to shoot game out of season. In 1981 when morgage rates were 24% you couldn`t find a job. i had a young family i shot 3 doe`s during that winter to eat. i have not had to do that again. i am not ashamed of it and would do it again if that situation came up .

[boxhitch]

Sustenance permits are available, to anyone who qualifies. Then its roasted or fried, not poached.

[Will]

GG - By poaching I mean purposefully killing an animal illegally.
Yes that Sucks.......:mad:

Although for some reason I can "understand" a poached animal for sustenance but a Poached animal for the Horns is really disgusting :|

[steepNdeep]

i shot 3 doe`s during that winter to eat.

Like Boxhitch said, the CO's and regs make allowances for that and I see no problem with it if there is a real need.

[ALPINE]

I'm with GG........were talking poaching in this instance, but where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it? Truth is, most of us have at one time or another broken some laws, either knowingly or by mistake. I tend to try and live by the philosophy of not judging my fellow man.......what goes around comes tends to come back around, and very few have a claim to a perfect track record

I have to agree with this. Nobody is perfect, sh#% happens

[Mr. Dean]

Shit does happen.

If the shit happened to be a Guide dropping a deer out of bounds, that was seperated/divided by a mountain...Then I want no part of that shit.

This isn't a mistake.
IF it was, the guide should understand these sentiments. For if the shoe was on anothers foot...What would he have said.

[Rainwater]

I do not believe there are sustenance permits any longer.

[steepNdeep]

What's the real story with that Ryan Hatch guy from Muley Crazy videos / magazine? I read something about him being in trouble...

Dana - Do you know how this case turned out or any of the background on it? Does he work as a guide? I've seen some of his video's and he films some great live bucks...


Seven Indicted for Violations of Federal Wildlife Laws
BY Kevin Ellis
FEDERAL WILDLIFE OFFICERS ASSOC'

A Federal Grand Jury in Phoenix, AZ, indicted seven individuals for 29 violations of the airborne Hunting Act, Lacey Act, and conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act.

The investigation began in 1998 and focused on several big game guides in Utah, Arizona and New Mexico who were suspected of unlawfully using aircraft prior to and during hunting seasons to locate deer and elk for hunting clients and unlawful hunting on the Navajo Indian Reservation.

Among the people indicted were Ryan Hatch, game writer/videographer, from Kanab, UT; Kenneth Clint Heiber, Red Bluff, CA; Joseph Aggi, Chico, CA; Howard Gilmore, Santa Barbara, CA; Joe Keller, Coalinga, CA; Robert Loring, Redding, CA; and Sam Carpenter, Kanab, UT. Various violations were cited, including 21 violations of Airborne Hunting, Lacey Act, and conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act.

The investigation that led to the indictment was conducted by the USFWS, the Arizona Game and Fish Department, and the Navajo Department of Fish and Wildlife. The prosecution is being handled by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Phoenix.

[dana]

There was a big write up in Trophy Hunter several years ago plus it was wildly debated on MM. I think the archives don't go back that far though as I did a search to find the press release and I couldn't find it for ya. This was all under Operation Navajo Buck. Thousands of dollars spent on the investigation with very little to show for it. Lots of speculation of a botched investigation but the fact is not much for proof was found. All Hatch was found guilty of is not having a $10 accompaning fee on the Rez when he was filming a hunt. That fee ended up costing him a $1000 if I remember correctly as that was what he was fined. Can't remember the other specifics but I think he may have lost his chute plane as well??? I'll have to go through my back issues of Trophy Hunter and try to find the article when I have some spare time.

[steepNdeep]

Dana - you sure know your hunting gossip. Apparently they could start a Redneck CSI ... Googled it:




OPERATION NAVAJO BUCK
The U.S. Attorney's Office and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have announced the sentencing of 11 individuals for violating federal wildlife laws stemming from an investigation dubbed "Operation Navajo Buck." The 11 paid a total of $84,000 in fines, restitution and penalties, along with one aircraft forfeited to the court.


The investigation which began in 1998, focused on several big game guides based in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, who were suspected of unlawfully using aircraft prior to and during hunting seasons to locate deer and elk for hunting clients in northern Arizona. The investigation also focused on illegal guiding and hunting on the Navajo Indian Reservation.


The following individuals were convicted of federal criminal violations for unlawful hunting on the Navajo Indian Reservation and sentenced as follows:


Mule deer videographer Ryan S. Hatch, Kanab, UT, was convicted of a criminal violation of the Lacey Act related to the taking of a mule deer on the Navajo Indian Reservation in 1997. Hatch was sentenced to five years probation and ordered to pay a $1,000 fine.


Steven Stayner, Mesa, AZ, was ordered to pay a $1,000 fine. A Federal civil action seeking the forfeiture of a powered parachute aircraft owned by Stayner is currently being litigated for alleged violations of the Airborne Hunting Act.


Kenneth Clint Heiber, Red Bluff, CA, was ordered to pay a $5,000 fine and $25,000 restitution to the Navajo Department of Wildlife. In addition Heiber was ordered to abandon a trophy mule deer killed on the Navajo Indian Reservation in December 1997, and subsequently seized by Agents of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in March of 2000.


Daniel Smith, Jr., San Jose, CA, was ordered to pay a $5,000 fine and $25,000 restitution to the Navajo Fish and Wildlife Department. In a related civil action, a 1998 Buckeye powered parachute valued at approximately $10,000 was forfeited to the government.


Joseph Aggi, Red Bluff, CA, was ordered to pay a $2,000 fine and ordered not to hunt for a period of two years.


Samuel S. Jaksick, Jr., Reno, NV, was ordered to pay a $4,500 fine and $7,500 restitution to the Navajo Department of Wildlife.


Julius Fontuna, Phoenix, AZ, was ordered to pay a fine of $2,500.

A. Paul Stewart, Phoenix, AZ, was ordered to pay a fine of $2,500. A federal civil action seeking forfeiture of a powered parachute aircraft owned by Stewart for alleged violations of the Airborne Hunting Act, is currently being litigated.


The following individuals paid Federal Violation Notices for unlawful hunting on the
Navajo Indian Reservation as follows:
Daniel Smith, III, San José, CA - $5,000
Larry Nicolds, Garland - $5,000
Mark LeFeyre, Tropic, UT


The federal Lacey Act makes it unlawful to transport, sell, receive, acquire or purchase wildlife which was taken, transported, possessed, or sold in violation of state, federal, or indian tribal laws or regulations. Violations carry maximum fines of up to $250,000 for a person, $500,000 for a corporation, and up to five years in prison. All vehicles and aircraft used in violation of the Lacey Act are subject to forfeiture.

The federal Airborne Hunting Act makes it unlawful to shoot animals from an aircraft or to harass animals with an aircraft. The Airborne Hunting Act Regulations prohibits a person, while on the ground, from taking or attempting to take wildlife by means, aid, or use of an aircraft. Maximum penalty for violations of the Airborne Hunting Act include fines of up to $100,000 for a person, and $200,000 for a corporation, and one year in prison.


The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service conducted the investigation with assistance from the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the Navajo Department of Wildlife. The prosecution was handled by Assistant Paul V. Rood and Camille Bibles of the U.S. Attorney's Office, District of Arizona, Phoenix.


The investigation that led to the convictions was conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS), Division of Law Enforcement, with SA Kevin Ellis as the case agent. He received assistance from the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the Navajo Department of Fish and Wildlife. Numerous agents from several regions and state officers helped with surveillance, undercover work, search warrant preparation and execution, interviews, trial preparation, and property inventories. SA Ellis was presented with a plaque for "Appreciation of his wildlife conservation efforts in Arizona" given to him from the FWS agents stationed in Arizona before his departure to Colorado.

[dana]

Since Steep seems to like to keep on bringing this up in recent threads about my article in Muley Crazy Magazine, I thought I would look through my Trophy Hunter Mags and find the article I was talking about. It's an eye opening read, one that Steep might find interesting.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/File0017.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/File0018.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/File0019.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/File0020.jpg

[dana]

Bump for Steep. Seems like he is avoiding responding to this topic. ;)

[bsa30-06]

Holy crap that is some story, thanxs for posting it.

[steepNdeep]

Dana - I haven't been on here much and I just read your article (sorry but I have a life outside of hunting ;) ) It sounds like a typical legal clustertruck... not a big surprise. In the article, he stressses a $10 permit, but a hunting license is only a small $20 piece of paper, and if you choose to hunt without one...

There are 2 sides to every story and that article is one side. The other side is that they paid a total of $84,000 in fines, restitution and penalties, along with one aircraft forfeited to the court.

As most people know, with good lawyers there are many legal loopholes and it's difficult to get a prosecution even when people are blatantly guilty (ask OJ).

Where there's smoke, there is usually fire. I guess eveyone chooses what they want to believe. If Hatch isn't guilty, I feel sorry for him getting dragged through all of that. (To his credit, he hasn't been in sh!t since then...) After reading both sides, it appears to me that at least some of the people he was associating with were guilty of something...

Apparently, you have to be careful who you choose to associate with, or you might get dragged through the mud with them...

[steepNdeep]

Apparently, you have to be careful who you choose to associate with, or you might get dragged through the mud with them...

I forgot to add: If you profit from teh hunting industry, you put yourself under public strutiny and have to be especially careful (and set a good example)...

When I started this thread, some similar chit had just started going down in BC. There was a big investigation going on, and a guy in the area had associated with a suspect in the investigation. Due to his association with the suspect, the CO's turned him upside down for a while. As you can imagine, some interesting comments floated around during the process...

Since then, they have concluded the investigation and laid charges on the suspect but found absolutely nothing wrong with the guy in the area. However, I'm sure he wishes he never associated himself with the suspect in the first place...

Everyone learns from their own mistakes, but a wise man learns from other's mistakes...

[dana]

In the article, he stressses a $10 permit, but a hunting license is only a small $20 piece of paper, and if you choose to hunt without one...

The difference is when I buy a hunting licence I'm hunting. Ryan didn't have an accompanying permit. He wasn't hunting, he was just filming. It's a misdemener but it ain't poaching.

Do you spend your life disassociating from people that may or may not be breaking the law? If your buddy gets a DUI offense, do you cut off all ties to him because you might be considered a drunk too???? How far do you take your high moral ground? If you go on a hunting trip and your buddy brings a buddy, do you ask for a criminal check before you approve? You must, as you don't want to even by a elk call from a company that has been associated with a wildlife offense.

[steepNdeep]

Do you spend your life disassociating from people that may or may not be breaking the law? If your buddy gets a DUI offense, do you cut off all ties to him because you might be considered a drunk too????

No, but I don't hang out with low life criminals, either. It's a personal call... I personally won't support a guide, outfitter or supplier that is a convicted poacher.

Would you?

[dana]

You were just talking about your friend being guilty by association weren't you? So if you are worried about that, how do you keep away from those individuals, especially pre-any charges? You seem to think Hatch is guilty because of who he was filming. Do you know who these guys are? They are guys that bought Conservation tags for huge $. They aren't your normal lowlife scumbag poacher. They were just guys in the public eye. So, you are saying Hatch is a guilty poacher because he filmed a hunt when he didn't have an accompany permit??? How does that make him a Poacher? You seem to like using that word. Tell me, how is a misdemeaner equivalent to poaching? An equivalent BC example would be if you were stopped by a CO and you didn't have a piece hide on each quarter and he intrepted the regs different than you. This has been debated several times on this site. If the CO charged you, are you a Poacher????
And I am guilty because I buy Hatch's products and have my article of MnT published in his magazine????? Where do you draw the line and when do you let go of things in the past?

[Phreddy]

To me, anyone who shoots anything other than within the same guidelines and rules and regs that the rest of us are subject to is a waste of good air, the odd sustenance hunter excepted. Anyone who is just out to get a good set of horns, which are tougher than hell and taste even worse, is just providing good ammunition for the anti-gun crowd.

[dana]

Phreddy,
Trophy Hunters actually kill way less animals because they are selective hunters that are willing to eat their tags year after year while they look for the right animal. And the idea that big animals taste bad is a myth. MnT was an old old buck and he tastes great. Don't have many MnT roasts left.

[steepNdeep]

I personally won't support a guide, outfitter or supplier that is a convicted poacher. Would you?

Would you support a convicted poacher? (I'm not talking about Hatch) Just answer the question...

[dana]

Depends on the what you consider 'poaching' don't in? Severity of the crime needs to be taken into consideration. Shooting game with the use of spotlights, shooting game out of season, shooting over the bag limit, wanton waste ect all are severe convictions and should get a severe response from the hunting community. Misdemeners like canceling the tag incorrectly or that sort of thing, I don't see as a issue to hold over someone forever. There is also the fact of people learning from their mistakes. People tend to do stupid things when they are young. Self control can be hard to grasp. Teens are notorious for doing stupid things. Sometimes this stupity spills over to wildlife infractions. Do you hold those against someone for the rest of their lives? Or is there a point that you learn to let go and forgive?

[Brambles]

I just read that article that Dana posted, sounds like government bull$hit to me and I wouldn't consider them poachers. Its a shame what they made those guys go through, and a shame how they wasted mucho taxpayers dollars on that stupid operation

To consider them poachers means that anyone who has gone hunting with a buddy and afterwards he bought you a beer or paid half of gas or bought Mcdonalds, whatever, is guilty of the same thing.

Horsecucky

I don't like poachers anymore then the next guy, but these guys weren't poachers.

The only thing that seemed a little odd and wasn't elaborated on much was that someone bought Hatch a truck after he connected on a big mulie.
But nowhere did I read where he was even charged with shooting an illegal buck, and to me that would be poaching...

[Phreddy]

I agree Dana.
I do contract work mentoring young teens for the MCF in our area, and find that if given the opportunity they thrive on learning how to hunt responsibly, and learn some darn good life skills in the process. I believe that, if given the opportunity to prove it, even the worst kids can pleaseantly surprise you.
We often go out to the different forestry campsites & clean them up on Mondays & Tuesdays after a weekend, and these kids really get into it while learning to respect the outdoors.

[The Hermit]

I would not spend a dime in a business where the owner was convicted of poaching. I would probably tell everyone I know that might do business with them about their poaching conviction and that I'd recommend doing business elsewhere.

[steepNdeep]

Depends on the what you consider 'poaching' - Shooting game with the use of spotlights, shooting game out of season, shooting over the bag limit, wanton waste ect.

That is what I consider 'poaching'. So, would you support someone convicted of that or not? Simple question, Dana...

[dana]

"Do you hold those against someone for the rest of their lives? Or is there a point that you learn to let go and forgive?"

Simple question isn't it? Why won't you answer it?

Do you bring your high moral ethic into other aspects of your life as well. Lets see, do you make sure the guy selling you gas isn't a wife beater, or do you double check to see if the guy at the grocery store hasn't been convited of tax fraud? You see Poaching is a crime. But it is not any more serious than many other crimes out there. Fact is many hunters on the internet talk smack with the 'Hang em High' attitude and yet they would support their buddy who just lost their licence to a DUI. Lets see, get behind a wheel drunk and kill someone is totally AOK but that POACHIN SOB that shot that deer out of season to feed his starvin family, WELL THAT GUY SHOULD HAVE HIS NUTS CUT OFF right??? Like I said, it all depends on the severity of the situation don't it. I answered your question several times now, why don't you answer mine?

[horshur]

That is what I consider 'poaching'. So, would you support someone convicted of that or not? Simple question, Dana...

What do you mean by support??? Buddy if you are playing a game where you don't shop,fill up your gas,bank,borrow, because someone may have broke the law(don't attach stronger values to wildlife offences--who or what is more important?) you are gonna be a lonely man. I'll tell ya plain--yes I would, have , and will continue----shoot the shit with any ole time cowboy and you are talking with a poacher(Camp meat)--any eight year old boy with a stick bow, rock, or BB gun with a robin on the front lawn.
Sorry bud--fatal error in my oppinion. Have you ever bought something from a convicted drunk driver?? Ever associated with friends that smoke pot--be hard to avoid that in the koots. Tax evasion--never met anyone who did that? list goes on and on.

[BlacktailStalker]

I think there's a fine line between it all and the chances of everybody seeing eye to eye on it is unlikely. Hopefully the eyes of the beholder acts a lot more appropriately than the convict they judge. That's all a guy can do really.

[Brambles]

that POACHIN SOB that shot that deer out of season to feed his starvin family, WELL THAT GUY SHOULD HAVE HIS NUTS CUT OFF right??? Like I said, it all depends on the severity of the situation don't it.

You bring up a good point, as I have posted previously, I don't like poachers much, but to me, a guy feeding his starving family, well I don't look at him in the sam light as a guy who kills a trophy or any animal for that matter out of season or in the dead of night, whatever the circumstances, just because he doesn't care about the rules or doesn't think that they apply to him.

Now your comparison about the gas station attendant or grocery bagger is a little skewed, a better comparison would be, would you invest your hard earned money with a guy who was convicted of embezzlement??? I think not. Would you leave your kids with a convicted pedafile even though he served his time, absolutly not. You are right Dana, every circumstance should be judged in its own light, some people see only in black and white, and some people see in black, gray and white. There is always a gray area IMO

Every once and a while I drink with a guy who was charged with poaching, never convicted, good chance he done it, actually I'm pretty sure he did but thats not my call. We don't go hunting, and I won't go hunting with him, but I'm civil because we have mutual friends and I don't mind bantering with him for a while if you can wade through the B.S.
I try and stay open minded and hear both sides of the story.

Personally I'm too honest to Poach, sure every one jokes about it, couple days after the season you see the big guy, but I have too much respect for myself to do that, to me its about the sport/hunt, and to me its not much of a sport if you don't play by the rules.

Brambles

[dana]

Brambles,
When Steep started this thread it was about whether he should buy an elk call from a company where the guy who started the company just got charged with a wildlife offense. I personally don't think that hard about the equipment I buy. If it bothers Steep, then don't buy the calls from now on, but don't expect everyone is going to jump on the same high moral ethic bandwagon. Steep then decided to make this personal towards me by bringing up on several other threads about Hatch's issues and basically trying to call me out because I had an article published in Hatch's magazine. That is why I posted up the Trophy Hunter article. Now all of a sudden, Steep doesn't want to talk about Hatch?

To bring this thread to a more personal level, I'm sure some read the charges laid against my former employer, Wayne Dzaman of Adams Lake Outfitting. There was a thread on here about it awhile back. According to the CBC report I heard, they have been charged with killing mountain goats in a no-hunting zone. Do you think I still associate with those guys? Hell No! I cut off my ties with them long before the $hit hit the fan. I didn't like their ethics and I certainly didn't like being treated like $hit by my employer.

[Brambles]

Brambles,
When Steep started this thread it was about whether he should buy an elk call from a company where the guy who started the company just got charged with a wildlife offense. I personally don't think that hard about the equipment I buy. If it bothers Steep, then don't buy the calls from now on, but don't expect everyone is going to jump on the same high moral ethic bandwagon. Steep then decided to make this personal towards me by bringing up on several other threads about Hatch's issues and basically trying to call me out because I had an article published in Hatch's magazine. That is why I posted up the Trophy Hunter article. Now all of a sudden, Steep doesn't want to talk about Hatch?

To bring this thread to a more personal level, I'm sure some read the charges laid against my former employer, Wayne Dzaman of Adams Lake Outfitting. There was a thread on here about it awhile back. According to the CBC report I heard, they have been charged with killing mountain goats in a no-hunting zone. Do you think I still associate with those guys? Hell No! I cut off my ties with them long before the $hit hit the fan. I didn't like their ethics and I certainly didn't like being treated like $hit by my employer.

Hey no sweat Dana, I'm not taking sides here. I'm doing my time and offering my 2 bits. Call it another perspective if you will:)

[dana]

When you live in a small town, it's hard not to do business with someone who has had a wildlife offense in their past, especially when you got a couple hard-core CO's like we've got. Do I no longer talk to these people? Heck, I see the CO's BSing with these same guys at social events even.

[steepNdeep]

"High and moral ground???" I started this thread, 'cause I had the same questions and I just wanted to see what others had to say... To me it definitely depends on the context and situation. (I personally still hate bureaucracy and in my y'uth, was a bit of a rebel...)

I think that Berry, who makes alot of $$$ from hunting selling supplies and videos of his hunts, knowingly crossed the line. I was debating whether to buy my next call from him and that was one of my only comments in this whole thread. The rest were questions...:mrgreen:

As for Hatch - from what I can tell, I don't think he did much wrong, except not having the proper access permit to film on the Reserve (which isn't a big deal)... :wink:

However, from what I've read, it seems like the others in the case did cross the line, with the Airborne Hunting Act - forfeiting 2 or 3 "chute planes", a trophy mule deer and paying $30,000 each in fines.
Was Hatch was filming these guys? :wink:

[steepNdeep]

Steep then decided to make this personal towards me by bringing up on several other threads about Hatch's issues
I made one comment in your MM thread... I thought a "Legendary Shitstirrer" could take a bit of stirrin'...


Now all of a sudden, Steep doesn't want to talk about Hatch? I don't mind talking about Hatch, I just wanted you to answer the question first, without getting hung up on Hatch...


Lets see, do you make sure the guy selling you gas isn't a wife beater, or do you double check to see if the guy at the grocery store hasn't been convited of tax fraud?
Dana and Horshur your logic is a bit off - Like Brambles and Will said "A better comparison would be, would you invest your hard earned money with a guy who was convicted of embezzlement??? I think not. Would you leave your kids with a convicted pedafile even though he served his time, absolutly not... " But buying a hunting license from a guy that has speeding tickets has nothing to do with it...

Dana, you should be a lawyer - you talk in circles and avoid the question. I'll make it easy for ya... Would you buy hunting services and/or supplies from a guide or outfitter recently convicted of serious poaching crimes that he knowingly committed so that he could profit???.... Yes or No?

[Phreddy]

To me, the hard core poacher is like the guy we have in town who has had as many as 3 elk hanging in his garage at a time. He guides (un-registered) in the area, and while I wouldn't come right out and call him a drug pusher, let's just say he travels in pharmaceuticals.
It's unfortunate that by the time the word gets out, the evidence is long gone.
The local sporting goods store and our f&g club won't allow him or his "hunting partners" to register in any of our big buck, etc., contests.
The funniest part is that last year he set up his new cabin tent in prime elk territory, blocking off the entrance into the whole area, and when he went to town for supplies someone stole it.

[hunter1947]

To me, the hard core poacher is like the guy we have in town who has had as many as 3 elk hanging in his garage at a time. He guides (un-registered) in the area, and while I wouldn't come right out and call him a drug pusher, let's just say he travels in pharmaceuticals.
It's unfortunate that by the time the word gets out, the evidence is long gone.
The local sporting goods store and our f&g club won't allow him or his "hunting partners" to register in any of our big buck, etc., contests.
The funniest part is that last year he set up his new cabin tent in prime elk territory, blocking off the entrance into the whole area, and when he went to town for supplies someone stole it.
Good for them who took his tent ,he deserves what happened , i have no use for people that block off right a ways into hunting areas.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[dana]

Steep,
How many times can I answer the question for ya? But why can't you answer the question I throw at you? Hmmm. I think someone doesn't like to think the answer through so that someone avoids the question. Your comparison don't fly. Buying services, can mean anything from buying gas to buying a jug of milk. Would I hunt with a guide that has been convicted? Hmmm, I told you I don't work for Adams Lake because of their ethics, so why would I book a hunt with the same kind of people? And you say I'm going around in circles?

[horshur]

Dana, you should be a lawyer - you talk in circles and avoid the question. I'll make it easy for ya... Would you buy hunting services and/or supplies from a guide or outfitter recently convicted of serious poaching crimes that he knowingly committed so that he could profit???.... Yes or No?

Why wouldn't you?--probably a fire sale:wink:--bought a fridge down the road from a convicted pot grower--I nail shoes on the the kids horses of convicted growers. Do not make wildlife offenses more heinous than other more common crimes. IMO they are less. I can even answer the question--would I hunt with one--Maybe-maybe not-it depends. Have I hunted with some--yep. Does that bother you?

[hunter1947]

If i new someone that was a poacher ,i would not be around him hunting at all ,period ,that's what i think of pouching.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[steepNdeep]

I don't work for Adams Lake because of their ethics, so why would I book a hunt with the same kind of people?

That wasn't so hard...


"Do you hold those against someone for the rest of their lives? Or is there a point that you learn to let go and forgive?"

Except for the grade 12 that broke my nose in grade 8 (although I periodically remind him that I would stomp him, now...) I don't have anyone to forgive for anything... If I did I'm sure that I would eventually...


Do not make wildlife offenses more heinous than other more common crimes. IMO they are less. Have I hunted with some--yep. Does that bother you?

No, and I don't care if you sleep in the corral, either... :biggrin: Some guys that I grew up with and now live up your way and ride loud motorcycles, but I still have a beer with them when I see them...

Are we having fun yet??? I'm dizzy and done. 8)