PG moose populations?

[ratherbefishin]

I'm not hearing good things about the moose population in PG,any local knowlege?what do they attribute it to-lack of food supply,disease,predation,winterkill?Since hunting only accounts for 15% of mortality,whether we hunt or not has a minimal impact on game populations....

[killman]

You want my opinion? Well I will give it anyways...... Elk! They are the cause. For whatever reason since they have arrived the moose have vacated.......not bitchin just saying.

[Thatguy]

You want my opinion? Well I will give it anyways...... Elk! They are the cause. For whatever reason since they have arrived the moose have vacated.......not bitchin just saying.

I agree completely with your opinion. I live in the Peace and there are 10 elk for every one that there was a few years ago. I remember being a kid and thinking how strange it will be that one day it will actually be easier to fill an elk tag than a moose tag. That time is here, elk cull regulations aside. That being said, the moose populations have been recovering in the areas I hunt them in the last couple years.

[ratherbefishin]

That may be,but unless the elk are eating all the brouse,leaving the moose to starve,it's unlikely that is the main problem.Plus the cut blocks create plenty of new growth for deer,elk and moose.Years ago the moose pollutlation went through a boom bust cycle but as Jimmy Hatter stated,they ate themselves out of willow brouse and starved.
But if elk are seen to be a problem,then a GOS 'any bull',antlerless and increased tags should bring that back into line.

[tinhorse]

It is combination of many factors...easier access due to large cut blocks and roads being built, larger predator numbers, I've read mention of tick problems in some areas in bc, the killing of breeding cows in the spring by some groups, bad management in keeping the cow and calf seasons open when the populations were starting to drop and many more to put on top of that. Elk may be a factor in pushing the moose to different areas around the region but definetly not the cause in my opinion of the dropping populations.

[Thatguy]

A few winters ago, when the moose took that big hit, ticks were definitely a factor. Driving to and from work it seemed that about half of them were missing a lot of fur. As a kid riding to FSJ from Hudsons Hope and back, a dozen moose would be the norm in the winter with the snow pushing them into the valley. You still see moose on the drive but at a fraction of the number. However, I never once saw an elk and now its common to see several different herds in the hour drive, especially when the snow is breaking up on the south facing slopes. One look at the terrain and you can tell its ideally suited for elk habitat. Not saying that elk numbers are a big factor everywhere but in the Peace Valley, its undeniable. Herbicides have made a lot of cutblocks unproductive almost entirely and increased access has put a lot of winter pressure on the population from those without regulation. I personally like to blame the phenomenal amount of wolf sign I see everywhere I go, gives a reason for a guy to get out in the winter and break the cabin fever.
Same story as usual around here with the moose though. Everybody talking about the lack of moose until they shoot one, then it's another great hunting season.

[canadiancon]

Used to hunt 7:9 a lot and the wolves in there now are crazy, in and around tabor mountain they are all over. Had a pack come in around the tree line while we were sighting in our rifles out at the pit past the ski hill.

[fishingguy44]

I had a tag close by this year 7-08. We saw multiple grizz everyday, with a couple charging. Wolf on trail cam and fresh tracks daily and mornings of howlings. Just wish I saw a few of them in person.

[Deaddog]

moose populations around PG vary, if you are comparing the last couple of years they are stable, compared to a decade ago some areas are vastly decreased. That said there are areas that populations are stable or increased from a decade ago (in the Omineca region). What is the reason for the decrease in some areas? Hard to say , a number of factors I am sure, however I will be watching with great interest as to the findings from the recent data collection of moose heads. So far we have had four collared moose die from starvation? could be a feed issue, which at first glance looks like there is a ton, however quality of food or perhaps the effect of herbicide on the moose may be playing out. Only time will tell.

[two-feet]

moose populations around PG vary, if you are comparing the last couple of years they are stable, compared to a decade ago some areas are vastly decreased. That said there are areas that populations are stable or increased from a decade ago (in the Omineca region). What is the reason for the decrease in some areas? Hard to say , a number of factors I am sure, however I will be watching with great interest as to the findings from the recent data collection of moose heads. So far we have had four collared moose die from starvation? could be a feed issue, which at first glance looks like there is a ton, however quality of food or perhaps the effect of herbicide on the moose may be playing out. Only time will tell.
where did you hear that they died of starvation?

[markomoose]

No doubt the numbers are down.Too many massive clearcuts and too many predators.Hunt locally in 7-09 and they are logging the shit out of some areas.Saw more moose before the infestation of wolves and loggers.

[killman]

moose populations around PG vary, if you are comparing the last couple of years they are stable, compared to a decade ago some areas are vastly decreased. That said there are areas that populations are stable or increased from a decade ago (in the Omineca region). What is the reason for the decrease in some areas? Hard to say , a number of factors I am sure, however I will be watching with great interest as to the findings from the recent data collection of moose heads. So far we have had four collared moose die from starvation? could be a feed issue, which at first glance looks like there is a ton, however quality of food or perhaps the effect of herbicide on the moose may be playing out. Only time will tell.

I'm thinking the lack of food maybe do to the old blocks are getting so over grown?? Maybe some thinning or burning is needed to produce some new food? The super blocks the dead pine stands don't seem to have the regrowth of feed that the old spruce and Balsm forests do.

[lightmag]

I guided locally thi syear, 7-12b, 7-10, 7-15, between myself and 2 other guides and 10 full days of hunting hard, hiking, calling, sitting, driving, pushing bush, etc...... 1 bull was seen , 1 bull was shot a 2x3 on the very 1st day at 2:30pm on the road....... lots of cows were seen and almost all had calves :) with the reduced calf season to senior and youths it should help with calf survival rates.. all animals look very healthy as well. Lots of sign, fresh sign daily... but with the extremely warm fall, and during full moon phase i believe most movement was during the night . numbers are down, but not as bad as people might think.. they are pushed hard by atv's and people and after rut hole up pretty quick... cows arent pushed, chased and shot at as much and tend to be out feeding more especially when with calves. With thi swarm weather, post rut bulls are recovering , sleeping most of th eday and feeding first light, last light and at night, and remain in heavy cover most of the day. I think once a cold snap hits we will have more bull sightings late season as they group up and move more with cold weather.... thats my opinion

[Boner]

It's not often mentioned but with the large amount of wolf sign that I see, I think sledding down a snowed in FSR is not good for the moose either. The hard snowmobile track really makes it easy for the wolves to cover more ground quicker. Plus there's always good eats for the moose on the roadsides. The last time I sledded in 7-15 I saw six cows and one bull in a 12 km stretch. None were noticed in the cut blocks, just on the roads or roadsides and spurs.

[Deaddog]

where did you hear that they died of starvation?


regional biologists, part of the study that the gov't is doing with support from bcwf/spruce city wildlife and north central guide outfitters

[woodland2014]

I have hunted many years in the Prince George area. The moose population has dropped significant in the last few years (more than 50 percent in some areas) due to poor wildlife management. The cow/calf season is the biggest problem and should be cancelled. If You kill the breeding cows and calves, you have no future breeding population ending in no moose. Say there is a group of hunters with both bull and cow L.E.H draws and they come across a family group of moose, The whole group could be killed off including the calves, ending in loss of a breeding group of moose. Most People in the Prince George area agree with this and a petition should be started to end this slaughter.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I have hunted many years in the Prince George area. The moose population has dropped significant in the last few years (more than 50 percent in some areas) due to poor wildlife management. The cow/calf season is the biggest problem and should be cancelled. If You kill the breeding cows and calves, you have no future breeding population ending in no moose. Say there is a group of hunters with both bull and cow L.E.H draws and they come across a family group of moose, The whole group could be killed off including the calves, ending in loss of a breeding group of moose. Most People in the Prince George area agree with this and a petition should be started to end this slaughter.

They have the same issue with the moose in regions 5 with bull only LEH.
Not saying we should not change the seasons in 7A while the pops are where the are now, but saying the regulations are to blame is a very narrow view. Make sure you see the forest through the trees

[Ambush]

Before logging started here, there were very few moose. The problem isn't logging, it's the silviculture protocols that follow.

I clearly remember seeing the first time they herbicide'd am area I used to hunt. Everything was dead. A gray/brown, dead landscape that recently was prime, well used moose habitat.

Wolves are an issue, but a lack of food is a bigger problem. We have been chasing beetle wood for years now and very little logging has taken place near the aging, former spruce, cut blocks that used to support good moose populations. We are at or near the end of the beetle kill so that will change, at least in the PG area.

Many of the forestry regulations are not ungulate friendly.

[300win]

A whole bunch of factors are causing the change(weather is the main one), the re growth of aspen ecosystem is much more conducive to elk and whitetails. The pine beetle is one of the primary causes, lack of habitation,the herbicide and pesticide usage..........................................

[freonguy]

A buddy and I hunted seven good days at the beginning of October - his son, he and I had 2 any bull group draw. We were in 7-12 B -

He has hunted the PG area for 40 years - we had a heck of a time finding decent sign the first few days, and saw very little sign in very ' moosey ' areas.

Got to a place nearer Sinkut Mountain off the Bobtail that had promise, but the bulls were not responding to calling. Couple of mornings at 5:00 am - plus 11 C! We did lots of walking - saw two guys loading up what appeared to be a roadside kill small bull on the Bobtail on day 3.

The last day, I watched a cow and last years calf @ 200 yards for 30 minutes ( no knobbies on the young one ) till they wandered in the bush and right after that, a cow stepped out of the bush on the other side of the trail I was hiking @ 150 yards - wind was perfect, she had no idea I was there - perfect, I have a live decoy.

She kept looking back in the bush, I thought, here we go - two calves came out, no bone again. They fed for 20 minutes, oblivious to my presence, wandered into the bush.

His son showed up the next week and they hunted for 3 more days - nothing to show.

I had a good time, but it was discouraging to see so little sign where my buddy has traditionally seen much more.

Freonguy

[300win]

^^^I have hunted that area for years and most of the people that live in that area see what is left of the decimated moose population closer to town. I know bush workers up that way that see no moose on the FSR, elk are moving in..........

[jml11]

Last year the regional wildlife bio did a presentation on this very topic. He presented all the variables mentioned here with rationale for or against it as a potential cause of the decline (based on data he has recently collected). His preliminary results were that a combination of predators and lack of mature forest cover are the primary contributors. He also mentioned that the changes in the calf regulations will only have a minor effect on the overall populations since hunting was a not considered a factor in the decline.

[300win]

^^x2.............

[billjc33]

You can't try and pin point a cause, it is a combination of a lot of different things. You cannot remove hunting as a factor especially when you have the same amount of hunters hunting whether the population is strong or weak. A complete list of all factors:

1. Predators - Wolfs are getting most of the attention lately but you can't overlook the effect the bears are having on popualtions, both black and grizzly. Both populations are growing and the number of grizzly bears moving into prime moose areas in which they didn't occupy before is alarming.

2. Hunting/Logging/Access - Since the major bug kill logging push, the hunting landscape has increased significantly. With the amount of roads pushed deeper and the ability to access them with ATV's, populations of moose that had never seen humans before are being hunted. Don't get me started on calf season.

3. Herbicide/Feed - Clear cuts that once used to offer an abundance of food helping to increase the moose population are no longer. Dead, dried up cuts that allow more growth to the pine trees and limit the leafy plants are not just affecting the land temporarely. The herbicides are decreasing the feed that will be available when the pines become old growth as well.

4. Elk - Moose and elk seem to be co-existing in the Peace but history in 7A is that the moose never moved into the area until the elk left. By transplanting elk into the area and forcing them un-naturally onto the moose this may have some effect.

5. Poaching/Unregulated hunting - Take a drive down the FSR's around PG in December when the snow is on the ground and the moose stand out like a sore thumb and see how much hunting is happening. It's alarming.

[kootenayelkslayer]

By transplanting elk into the area...
Hmm well that's not true.

Lots of good theories out there for the moose decline. Truth is, no one really knows. One would have to imagine that the decline is being influenced by several cumulative factors.

[billjc33]

[QUOTE=kootenayelkslayer;1556364]Hmm well that's not true.

If you think that is not true then you are not informed. There has been over 20 truck loads elk fom Jasper national park transplanted to PG in the last 10 years

[ianwuzhere]

20 truckloads of elk? Wow, anywhere online can see this proof.. That like over two truckloads of elk a year, im sure someone has seen this going on out there..
Ive seen a fair amount of bulls this year in PG area. Some within 100m of elk. I dont think the few elk here and there are the cause of the decline in moose populations. 5 wolves shot this year. More then any other year.. Things change, moose move around. I have seen about the average number of moose this year as i remember to other years.. I am interested in seeing how the calf season restriction will do in a couple years. I bet there will be lots more immatures next year...

[kootenayelkslayer]

If you think that is not true then you are not informed. There has been over 20 truck loads elk fom Jasper national park transplanted to PG in the last 10 years

Haha that's funny. A lot of guys seem to believe that conspiracy. I've heard the stories of truckloads of elk being unloaded under the cover of darkness too, but it's not true. Elk naturally expanded to PG.

[GoatGuy]

You can't try and pin point a cause, it is a combination of a lot of different things. You cannot remove hunting as a factor especially when you have the same amount of hunters hunting whether the population is strong or weak. A complete list of all factors:

1. Predators - Wolfs are getting most of the attention lately but you can't overlook the effect the bears are having on popualtions, both black and grizzly. Both populations are growing and the number of grizzly bears moving into prime moose areas in which they didn't occupy before is alarming.

2. Hunting/Logging/Access - Since the major bug kill logging push, the hunting landscape has increased significantly. With the amount of roads pushed deeper and the ability to access them with ATV's, populations of moose that had never seen humans before are being hunted. Don't get me started on calf season.

3. Herbicide/Feed - Clear cuts that once used to offer an abundance of food helping to increase the moose population are no longer. Dead, dried up cuts that allow more growth to the pine trees and limit the leafy plants are not just affecting the land temporarely. The herbicides are decreasing the feed that will be available when the pines become old growth as well.

4. Elk - Moose and elk seem to be co-existing in the Peace but history in 7A is that the moose never moved into the area until the elk left. By transplanting elk into the area and forcing them un-naturally onto the moose this may have some effect.

5. Poaching/Unregulated hunting - Take a drive down the FSR's around PG in December when the snow is on the ground and the moose stand out like a sore thumb and see how much hunting is happening. It's alarming.

Any support for the top 5?


Curious, there's no calf season in region 5, why has it seen a greater decline in moose populations?

There's no calf seen in region 6, why has the SE portion seen a significant reduction in moose populations? Why are they experiencing poor recruitment?

There's no calf season in 7b, why have parts of it seen a decline?

There's no calf season in the North Thomson, region 3, why has it seen a significant decline?


Feel free to answer all individually.

[GoatGuy]

[QUOTE=kootenayelkslayer;1556364]Hmm well that's not true.

If you think that is not true then you are not informed. There has been over 20 truck loads elk fom Jasper national park transplanted to PG in the last 10 years

You've just proven you never know who you're talking to on the internet.

[Sitkaspruce]

mpotzold

Did you and your partner do your part and shoot your 4 bears to help the moose population??

You keep bring it up as a reason.....curious if you help the moose buy shooting those bears??

Another reason for the moose pop decline in some areas is the planting of mono culture stands of pine where we used to have mixed species. Pure pine stands do not provide good winter habitat.

Elk eat different food than moose. Moose are browsers (willow, cottonwood and other woody plant species), elk are grazers (grasses, sedges, grains etc), so they do not complete for the same food.

And to poster who said they transplanted 20 truck loads of elk from Jasper....thanks for the laugh!!!

Cheers

SS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Next time you're through Region 8, stop in for some BBQ bear burgers. You WILL change your mind!

SSS

[250 sav]

I believe that when the rule on taking black bear meat came into effect less people targeted them.I agree with what many have said about bears and moose poulation decline as being another signifcant factor. I don't hunt bears as I don't want arug and I don't eat them. I buy a bear tag every year in case I have to deal with a camp bear etc. from the mid sept to mid oct I hunted pg area lots a I was going to school there. I've seen as many as 18 blackbears in a day andthe most moose in aday was 6. over all thou I saw 11 blackbears for every moose I saw, and one grizz for every 4 moose I saw.

[kendoo]

I've hunted the upper Muskwa every year for 30 years & the first 25 years there were tons of elk, moose every where, grizzly (lots) a few black bear. The last few years still lots of elk only moved up the hills further. Hardly ever see a moose the last few years.
-- not many hunters, most are elk or sheep hunters
-- don't hear or see many wolves
-- no logging
-- no sustenance hunting
-- no railway tracks
So it's really puzzleing where the moose have gone, all though early years we saw 8 cow moose in a swamp & 1 had a calf & was slim & trim while the other 7 were big fat sway bellies so maybe wolves & bears cleaned them out & moved on or starved them selves out in any case when up to 5-6 years ago we would see se 10-15 moose in a 125 mile trip we don't see any now. Something odd is happening.

[ratherbefishin]

Nothing wrong with bear meat,it makes the best sausages you have ever had,and the hams cured and smoked rival pork.Bear fat renders down to a clear hard lard that is excellent for baking,if you haven't tried it,you're missing some fine eating

[eric]

Ya hunters need to take more Bears. Took one this spring and turned him into mostly burgers,great eating.
Going to take one every spring now.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Elk eat different food than moose. Moose are browsers (willow, cottonwood and other woody plant species), elk are grazers (grasses, sedges, grains etc), so they do not complete for the same food.

SS

Elk do browse on willow quite heavily in the winter, at least around the PG area. Not saying that it's significant enough to cause a moose decline though. My impression of the landscape is that food isn't limiting for the moose.

[Fisher-Dude]

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s558/land51/005_zps2fc26ac4.jpg


What did you do, beat the shit out of that bear with a hammer?

When are the anti-calf hunting posters going to address the points made above about all the significant moose population declines in adjacent regions with no calf seasons?

[tomahawk]

We came back from our bull moose shared leh hunt very impressed at the number of moose in the area that we hunt in 7 out of PG. We had 2 bull draws and filled them both in less then 12 hrs of hunting. Heard a lot more replying to our calls, lots of bush and trees beat to heck and tracks everywhere the ground was damp enough to show them. Easily,could,have taken more bulls if we had the draws. I have hunted this same area since 1981 and believe there are as many moose in there now as before or possibly even more. We called in the 2 bulls we shot and had close encounters with 4 or 5 other bulls, heard a cow calling and spooked a few moose as well, all in 12 hrs of hunting ( we were prepared for 2 weeks). So unlike most others who replied the area we were in is going strong, definitely more then 5'yrs ago and similar to 33 yrs ago when it was prime.