Five Point Bull Elk

[Walksalot]

A five point bull elk appears to have been shot and left in a cut block. We have to make sure before we shoot. It is possible it could have been a predator but the location strongly suggests it was human error, 50 yds inside the cut block and not very far from the landing. The CO.s have been notified. The scavengers have pretty much cleaned it up.

[JIL_24/7]

This is really too bad. Does anyone know what the typical penalty is for something like this if it is self reported? And is the penalty different if a person is found to be guilty through sources and investigation?

[Bc Deer Hunter]

Ah man terrible news.. Do you know which region this happened in?

[Fisher-Dude]

This is really too bad. Does anyone know what the typical penalty is for something like this if it is self reported? And is the penalty different if a person is found to be guilty through sources and investigation?

Those who self-report a mistake are dealt with much, much differently from those who leave game to rot and run and hide.

There's a section in the regs that explains what to do if a mistake is made.

[Salty]

I know a fellow who shot at a immi moose that turned out to be a cow quite a few yrs back. He had spotted and ID'd a legal immy that disappeared then reappeared so he thought, but the reappearance was a cow who's head was hidden from view. He was questioned very extensively a couple of times and I believe the end result was no LEH moose for a year or something very similar. Its the right thing to do and the smart thing to do even for those that don't care about doing the right thing.

[Ron.C]

Agree, it's the right thing to do.

Like any other violation, comes down to the investigation conducted by the CO the inident is reported to. Each case will be based off its own set of circumstances.

[Walksalot]

Both my son and I were discussing, as we looked at what was left of the animal, what we would do if either one of us made a mistake and both of us agreed that we would be a true sportsman and report the mistake to the authorities. Granted some scavengers got a free ride on the roller coaster but it truly is a waste. This took place in 8-09 and there are not enough elk in this area to have this happen.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Both my son and I were discussing, as we looked at what was left of the animal, what we would do if either one of us made a mistake and both of us agreed that we would be a true sportsman and report the mistake to the authorities. Granted some scavengers got a free ride on the roller coaster but it truly is a waste. This took place in 8-09 and there are not enough elk in this area to have this happen.

lots of 5 points in region 8-09 very little 6 points tho, sad to see this happen again

[Fisher-Dude]

lots of 5 points in region 8-09 very little 6 points tho, sad to see this happen again

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

[.300WSMImpact!]

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

cant disagree, but is a 3 point season sustainable, I would say no with the pressure, but who am I

[Steeleco]

cant disagree, but is a 3 point season sustainable, I would say no with the pressure, but who am I

LEH only for 3-4-5 points, let the 6 points be. Just my opinion!

[Fisher-Dude]

cant disagree, but is a 3 point season sustainable, I would say no with the pressure, but who am I

Season used to be 3 point, 3 months long with more elk hunters.


LEH only for 3-4-5 points, let the 6 points be. Just my opinion!

What would limiting opportunity and harvest do for elk?

[J_T]

Season used to be 3 point, 3 months long with more elk hunters.



What would limiting opportunity and harvest do for elk? Different times. At that time, less roads for access, less game calls to fool animals, with open sites on firearms. Most elk hunting was done well after the rut and focused more on a migration pattern. Transitional range was less densely populated, no high fences on farmland and no internet for information gathering. Very different.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Season used to be 3 point, 3 months long with more elk hunters.



What would limiting opportunity and harvest do for elk?

Plus the elk population in the area has doubled since the fire.

[Ourea]

Season used to be 3 point, 3 months long with more elk hunters..........



Granted.
There were also only a fraction of the FSR's that we currently now see.
Most of the once extensive old growth has been removed or dissected leaving very little undisturbed habitat for elk to survive and hide in compared to the era you are referring to. The Okanagan population has more than tripled leading to unprecedented encroachment. There are more and more tools at a hunters disposal none of the least being social media that pretty much pulls the pants down on any area.
FN's is becoming an unquantified factor in the majority of harvest do to said FSR density and unprecedented access to elk areas.
The dynamics have changed dramatically and regulation needs to reflect that understanding.
Do to the mentioned factors we are already seeing a significant drop in harvest and is trending down aggressively.


What would limiting opportunity and harvest do for elk?[/QUOTE]

It would allow for a robust herd that is balanced in both age and sex which puts more legal bulls out overall.
The later seasons and 3 point restriction back in the day was a major factor in hammering down the overall health of our Reg 8 herd.
If memory serves harvest plummeted to a handful of elk being legally harvested in the OK area for a number of years.
Of that harvest almost all were 3 points with an occasional 5 point.
(Ironically half of that harvest was from the same 3 or 4 guys every year)

Anyway, that's the first few things that jump out at me at first blush.

[RiverOtter]

lots of 5 points in region 8-09 very little 6 points tho, sad to see this happen again


The result of too many years of 6 point only season.


cant disagree, but is a 3 point season sustainable, I would say no with the pressure, but who am I

JMO, but why would it need to be a 3pt season?

I don't see why we couldn't have a 5 points or more season, especially in areas with healthy populations and or heavy 5 point genetics.

[OutWest]

JMO, but why would it need to be a 3pt season?

I don't see why we couldn't have a 5 points or more season, especially in areas with healthy populations and or heavy 5 point genetics.

If a population can sustain it, why not? There is no conservation concern. The 6 point season in Region 8 was not meant to be a long term fixture.

[J_T]

And Region 8 Elk hunters wonder why their all over in the EK or WK.

[coach]

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

Are you saying that region 8 has a plethora of mature 5 points?

[nelsonob1]

This is really too bad. Does anyone know what the typical penalty is for something like this if it is self reported? And is the penalty different if a person is found to be guilty through sources and investigation?

I self reported a mistake last season. I was interviewed, instructed on my mistake and fined. They also thanked me for my honesty. If you make a mistake, self report and pay the fine. Otherwise you may lose the license.

[Fisher-Dude]

Different times. At that time, less roads for access, less game calls to fool animals, with open sites on firearms. Most elk hunting was done well after the rut and focused more on a migration pattern. Transitional range was less densely populated, no high fences on farmland and no internet for information gathering. Very different.

Actually, we drove right thru the middle of what is now 8-09's OK Mountain Park, in our truck, with scoped rifles. Access was better than it is today for the area in question.

[Fisher-Dude]

It would allow for a robust herd that is balanced in both age and sex which puts more legal bulls out overall.
The later seasons and 3 point restriction back in the day was a major factor in hammering down the overall health of our Reg 8 herd.
If memory serves harvest plummeted to a handful of elk being legally harvested in the OK area for a number of years.
Of that harvest almost all were 3 points with an occasional 5 point.
(Ironically half of that harvest was from the same 3 or 4 guys every year)

Anyway, that's the first few things that jump out at me at first blush.


Nothing to do whatsoever with elk harvest. 100% to do with 100 years of fire suppression and no suitable habitat.

The surge in the elk population did not correlate to the implementation of the 6 point/shortened season. The surge in population happened many years afterwards, and it's no coincidence that it was in the years immediately after the fires of 2003.

What's wrong with guys harvesting 3 and 5 point elk? Are they lesser hunters for doing so?

[Jetboater]

I self reported 8 years ago as I shot the 5 point fighting the 6 point. Took a 110 dollar fine cancelled my tag and recovered the animal. Delivered to the co in inveremere he said I was the first person to self report that year with 100 5 points shot. co will view you as an honest person who made a mistake if you report it. But a poacher if you don't.

[Mikey Rafiki]

I've only seen one mature 300+ inch 5 pointer in my life. All of those 5 points up there are just younger bulls, no different than they are here in the 6 point GOS.

[Fisher-Dude]

1977/78 regulations:

Elk, 3 pt (8-1, 8-9, 8-10) Sep 1 - Nov 30

Elk, 3 pt (8-4 to 8-7) Sep 22 - Nov 15

We used to manage by MU. Might be worth the extra ink and paper to do that again.

[Husky7mm]

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

Should only be huge 5 pointers in the east koots then, right? Wrong , every year few more 6's slip though the army's of hunters and become even bigger a and smarter six plus pointers the following. Plus a bunch of new 6 pointers joining the population. I found the elk hunting just got a little better every year. A very conservative antlerless harvest helps a ton to grow the population quick. Too bad they have to keep ranchers happy too....
IMO Anything less than a six point season puts a huge pressure on young dumb 2 1/2 year old bulls that respond to any bugle or cow call. Changing it would create a very high harvest followed by slow years, instead of good steady elk hunting for those that put in some effort. The six point gene is in most bulls even as a spike. Spikes do plenty of breeding believe it or not. The 6 point gene will not be wiped out.
Shouldn't be any moose with 3 on the brow any more either.......
IMO the with an increase in liberal seasons the system is gonna fall apart. A great big harvest followed by crappy hunting, and then more leh.

[Argali]

co in inveremere he said I was the first person to self report that year with 100 5 points shot. t.

Good on you for self-reporting but if what the CO is true about 100 5-points being show, then clearly there is a major problem. Either the rule is just too difficult, or a significant portion of hunters are too lax in trying to implement the rule. In practise, it is difficult to count the points unless the elk is in the open and not moving much. In areas with stable elk populations, it might be worth considering a 5-point rule instead of 6-point because the difference between a 3-4 point and a 5-point is a lot more obvious than between a 5- and 6- point

In terms of what FisherDude was saying, there is nothing wrong with killing 3 or 5 point elk, unless you kill all of them. In a small area like 8-09 with a small elk herd and a large and increasingly experienced hunter population, it is not that difficult to harvest nearly all the bulls in the herd if you allow rifle hunting during the rut. Elk become fairly predictable during the rut and once those patterns are established, harvesting them becomes easier, as Ourea pointed out by mentioning that the same 3-4 guys got an elk every year. Now suppose there are 30-40 guys with the same experience and talent - not many bulls from a small herd would survive if any bull was fair game.

An any-bull season would be more easily sustained if rifle hunting was eliminated during the rut, and the season ran from say Oct. 20 to Nov. 15 ... after the rut, when the bulls have done their duty, left the cows, and are usually holed up alone in thickets, not moving around much, and not very responsive to calls. They are harder to find, harder to hunt, and it would be more difficult to wipe out all the bulls. You would have to stop the season prior to when heavy snows push them out of their holes toward winter range.

You could open such a season for any-bull. The bulk of the harvest would probably be the younger 3-5 point bulls, and the total bull elk harvest would probably sustainably exceed the current harvest under the 6-point season.

However, I would certainly prefer a Sept 6-point hunt than an early-Nov 3-point hunt by a wide margin.

[Fisher-Dude]

The six point gene is in most bulls even as a spike.

Link to data?

[Husky7mm]

You left as fisher dude and came back as goat guy , lol
no data just the way it is, like mulies. Most become 4 pointers and will remain 4 points until they die. Genes Are passed on through the female also.

[Fisher-Dude]

The number of elk hunters in region 8 declined by 60.3% since the implementation of the 6 point season in 1999.

Average 1990 - 1998 = 1252 hunters
Average 1999 - 2006 = 498 hunters

The season change was good for killing off hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

Most become 4 pointers and will remain 4 points until they die.

Link to data?

[Argali]

1977/78 regulations:

Elk, 3 pt (8-1, 8-9, 8-10) Sep 1 - Nov 30

Elk, 3 pt (8-4 to 8-7) Sep 22 - Nov 15



Why not go back to 1972-73 regulations under the old-old region settings when the Okanagan was region IV and unit 6 encompassed the entire drainge of Okanagan Lake (east and west sides to height of land)

GOS 1972-73:

Bull Elk: Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Anterless Elk (GOS!):Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Bull Moose: Sept 16 - Nov. 15
Anterless Moose Nov. 11- Nov. 15
Goat Sept 29 - Oct 1
Sheep 3/4 Sept 23 - Oct 1
Cougar Apr1 - Mar31
wolf sorry no season

and hey how about this:
Caribou any sex: Sept 2 - Oct 29 for unit 5 Monashee (Mable and Sugar lake drainages)

[Fisher-Dude]

Why not go back to 1972-73 regulations under the old-old region settings when the Okanagan was region IV and unit 6 encompassed the entire drainge of Okanagan Lake (east and west sides to height of land)

GOS 1972-73:

Bull Elk: Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Anterless Elk (GOS!):Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Bull Moose: Sept 16 - Nov. 15
Anterless Moose Nov. 11- Nov. 15
Goat Sept 29 - Oct 1
Sheep 3/4 Sept 23 - Oct 1
Cougar Apr1 - Mar31
wolf sorry no season

and hey how about this:
Caribou any sex: Sept 2 - Oct 29 for unit 5 Monashee (Mable and Sugar lake drainages)


Those were the days my friend.

Funny how all we've done since 1972 is restrict hunters with shorter seasons and more point restrictions, yet all we have to show for it is much less game and fewer hunters.

Perhaps restricting hunters should be abandoned in favour of making more game?

[J_T]

Managing by MU is like managing by the Honey hole. In today's world of information, everyone would simply chase the elk season from MU to MU. The data you always ask about has been proved out in region 4. A more liberal elk hunt was not sustainable. Or rather the more liberal elk hunt met the objective of reducing elk numbers by over half to appease the ranchers. Of course habitat is the key to population growth. So is predator management, access management, new game calls and the internet.

But hey, if you guys in Region 8 want to go forward with more liberal elk seasons fill your boots. Just don't head over to Reg 4 when there's no elk left.

[Ourea]

With the cancellation of the 3 point restriction and a tightened season we saw a rebound of bulls with a bit of age.
As a result the herd became healthier relative to their habitat.
This was well before the fires that recently enhanced the current populations.

With recent fires came increased sight lines and a very slow re-gen process due to our arid climate.
More roads.
Endless sight lines.
More roads.
Endless sight lines.......

Backing up......the lengthened season and 3 point restriction from years gone by resulted in very few bulls got to blow out their birthday candles after two years of age.
Mortality on 3 yr+ bulls was brutal underscored by the fact they were virtually non-existent.

Now, thanks to habitat enhancement, our numbers are up.
That number appears to be remaining stable yet harvest numbers are going down.... for three years running. 2014 will show no different.
Hmmmmm.
That says that the percentage of 3-4+ year old bulls surviving the gauntlet that is the OK elk GOS is becoming fewer and fewer.
This is because of the previously mentioned factors.
We are relying on the survival of 3 yr old bulls to provide a fresh crop of legal 6 point bulls the next season.

Open a GOS five point to fuel the appetite for a higher harvest and then a six point bull becomes an anomaly.
We then hammer the two and three year old bulls going forward to the point where a five point is considered a "good bull" for the area.

Drop that down to a three point season to satisfy "opportunity".....immature bulls now make up the majority of the bull population....well, common sense has to become a factor in anyone's optics when looking at this unique area and situation.

I know the inventory intimately and could go on.......

Back to the OP and his point.
If you make a mistake. Report the infraction. Hold your head high for doing the right thing.
Those that make mistakes and admit them sleep at night.
Those that try to cover them up .......

[Jagermeister]

Why not go back to 1972-73 regulations under the old-old region settings when the Okanagan was region IV and unit 6 encompassed the entire drainge of Okanagan Lake (east and west sides to height of land)

GOS 1972-73:

Bull Elk: Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Anterless Elk (GOS!):Sept 16 - Dec. 3
Bull Moose: Sept 16 - Nov. 15
Anterless Moose Nov. 11- Nov. 15
Goat Sept 29 - Oct 1
Sheep 3/4 Sept 23 - Oct 1
Cougar Apr1 - Mar31
wolf sorry no season

and hey how about this:
Caribou any sex: Sept 2 - Oct 29 for unit 5 Monashee (Mable and Sugar lake drainages)Back in those days, there was not the road network that exists today. If you were hunting elk, you either hoofed it yourself of horsed.
There was only one road into the upper Arawana area with a little loop by the dams. That area had no side roads and the lodgepole pine that had fallen over made hunting elk downright difficult.
The other roads, Chute Lake, Reservoir, Carmi, Venner Meadows (Shuttleworth Creek) and Camp McKinney pentrated the area but side roads off these were very limited.
So it's not likely we will ever see those generous seasons again.
There is no excuse for a hunter to make the mistake of shooting a non-legal animal. If you're not sure, don't shoot. The excitement of the chase runs high, but how can you call yourself a hunter when you shoot and run and hide from the deed?

[GoatGuy]

Road density into regen kills critters. Both regulated hunter and un-regulated hunter harvest goes up significantly with widespread access into new cutblocks. Due to government's "log it all" approach road density has gone through the roof - so has roads and so has harvest.

If people want more critters make more habitat. If you want more restrictions keep sticking with your "God-given right" to roads.

The Okanagan has both the highest road and hunter density in the Province. People will have to deal with one or the other at some point some, otherwise they will get to sit at home on the couch and talk about "the good old days".

[GoatGuy]

Managing by MU is like managing by the Honey hole. In today's world of information, everyone would simply chase the elk season from MU to MU. The data you always ask about has been proved out in region 4. A more liberal elk hunt was not sustainable. Or rather the more liberal elk hunt met the objective of reducing elk numbers by over half to appease the ranchers. Of course habitat is the key to population growth. So is predator management, access management, new game calls and the internet.

But hey, if you guys in Region 8 want to go forward with more liberal elk seasons fill your boots. Just don't head over to Reg 4 when there's no elk left.

The hunt achieved the objective.

There are a ton of areas in the EK that could sustain a 3 pts season, namely every road closure. There are still a pile of spots in the EK that have extremely high sex ratios - areas where there are literally no elk shot other than a couple by the outfitter. Hunted for 10 days there, we saw two (2) hunters the whole time in an area that is about 25 kms long.

Your last sentence is a bit of an embellishment. If you want a few spots where the boys are running into lots of elk I don't mind sharing. Just have to lay some boot leather down.

[Ride Red]

Personally, I'd like to see more deactivated roads like they used too. Not saying all roads need to be closed, but with some areas being completely open to vehicle traffic is ridiculous. The pine beetle areas have more roads layed out than any local subdivision, thus leaving animals more susceptible to drive up traffic.

For those who have self reported, good on you. No matter what you do in life, being an adult should mean owning up to your responsibilities and accepting the consequences as it really does make your life easier.

[robk]

Hunted 8-9 and 8-10 for many years as was raised in Penticton. Have found a number of 5 points shot and left over the years as well as cow carcasses left or wounded. There seems to be a gene in the Okanagan that produces 1 fighting tine on each side bending down rather than up making the 3 point on top rule of thumb invalid as a 6 pt. Have left a number of Elk walk away over the years rather than make a mistake. Yes there are more roads and new cuts, however the old hunting areas have grown over giving plenty of cover, much of it almost impossible to get into and if you do you may get a 10-20 yard view. My theory is that due to the heat and hunting pressure early season the Elk are not active during the day and you have to get onto the ridges before daybreak and listen more than you toot. I would have no problem with LEH only, or 3,4,5 pt only if "everyone" left the 6 pts alone. We are getting up there now, just turning 60, but still spend most of the day in the timber ( on my 3rd generation GPS) and are willing to do what it takes to get him out. Was in 8-9 for 6 days last week, camped at 5500 hunting to 6500, didn't see or hear any Elk but had a great time wearing out another pair of boots. Oh ya we did take a nice 4X4 mulie, worked a WT wihout success and ate some grouse. Better than an week at work and home chores.

[J_T]

The hunt achieved the objective.

There are a ton of areas in the EK that could sustain a 3 pts season, namely every road closure. There are still a pile of spots in the EK that have extremely high sex ratios - areas where there are literally no elk shot other than a couple by the outfitter. Hunted for 10 days there, we saw two (2) hunters the whole time in an area that is about 25 kms long.

Your last sentence is a bit of an embellishment. If you want a few spots where the boys are running into lots of elk I don't mind sharing. Just have to lay some boot leather down. I can see I was completely misunderstood.

[Walksalot]

The Okanagan Mountain fire and the Garnet fire created some fabulous habitat but as far as the elk go I think the population is not as big as some seem to think. I would bet a dollar that 100-150 animals would be a fairly good estimate of the total population. There are some studies done on elk which suggest that a population below 150 animals shouldn't be hunted.
Back in the days of 3 point or better, as logging and access increased, the population took a big hit. I went into Bob Linchon(sp) and suggested the season should be changed. I never bought an elk tag for ten years feeling the elk population was in such decline. It wasn't until the harvest of bull elk plummeted to next to zero did wildlife biologists recognize there was a problem and the six point or better season was implemented. In discussion with the provincial wildlife biologist I suggested new blood be introduced to try and enhance the genetics of the elk population. The answer I got was that the conflict between the agricultural community and an enhanced elk population would be a huge issue. Mother Nature helped with the recent fires. I think any deviation from the current elk season in the Okanagan would be a huge mistake. In my opinion, hunters who are in favor of a 3 point or better season for elk in the Okanagan are hunters who care not for a responsible wildlife management strategy for elk they are hunters who simply want to shoot an elk.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The Okanagan Mountain fire and the Garnet fire created some fabulous habitat but as far as the elk go I think the population is not as big as some seem to think. I would bet a dollar that 100-150 animals would be a fairly good estimate of the total population. There are some studies done on elk which suggest that a population below 150 animals shouldn't be hunted.
Back in the days of 3 point or better, as logging and access increased, the population took a big hit. I went into Bob Linchon(sp) and suggested the season should be changed. I never bought an elk tag for ten years feeling the elk population was in such decline. It wasn't until the harvest of bull elk plummeted to next to zero did wildlife biologists recognize there was a problem and the six point or better season was implemented. In discussion with the provincial wildlife biologist I suggested new blood be introduced to try and enhance the genetics of the elk population. The answer I got was that the conflict between the agricultural community and an enhanced elk population would be a huge issue. Mother Nature helped with the recent fires. I think any deviation from the current elk season in the Okanagan would be a huge mistake. In my opinion, hunters who are in favor of a 3 point or better season for elk in the Okanagan are hunters who care not for a responsible wildlife management strategy for elk they are hunters who simply want to shoot an elk.

The bull harvest crashed after the bad winter of 96/97 when we also lost a pile of our deer.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

With the cancellation of the 3 point restriction and a tightened season we saw a rebound of bulls with a bit of age.
As a result the herd became healthier relative to their habitat.


Is there a correlation between herd health and old bulls? Link? Or is it just nice to have big bulls for social reasons?


Personally, I'd like to see more deactivated roads like they used too. Not saying all roads need to be closed, but with some areas being completely open to vehicle traffic is ridiculous. The pine beetle areas have more roads layed out than any local subdivision, thus leaving animals more susceptible to drive up traffic.


Back when I hunted in the 1970s, the Forest Service used to grade most of the roads for us a few times a year! Deactivation meant an old road grew in with alders.



The Okanagan Mountain fire and the Garnet fire created some fabulous habitat but as far as the elk go I think the population is not as big as some seem to think. I would bet a dollar that 100-150 animals would be a fairly good estimate of the total population. There are some studies done on elk which suggest that a population below 150 animals shouldn't be hunted.



Last count in 8-09 was 270 elk (2009) http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4219_WSI_4219_RPT_2009ELK.PDF.

Princeton count in 2013 (http://www.kelownacapnews.com/news/186255131.html)was 340 elk, with a pop estimate of 525 animals.

Population for region 8 was estimated (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4219_WSI_4219_RPT4.PDF) at 922 elk in 2002, and is considered much higher now as habitat from fires has improved populations. Count comments are "more than double the animals" in previous surveys.

The hunt is region-wide, not MU specific, so the "population being hunted" is more than sufficient. A bull only season will not affect overall population numbers unless sex ratios fall below conservation concern levels, somewhere below 8 : 100. We're far above that, with 19 : 100 in the 2009 survey, statistically right on the provincial target of 20 : 100.

See more surveys here: http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/siwe/details.do?id=4219

[bighornbob]

Was in 8-9 for 6 days last week, camped at 5500 hunting to 6500, didn't see or hear any Elk but had a great time wearing out another pair of boots. Oh ya we did take a nice 4X4 mulie, worked a WT wihout success and ate some grouse. Better than an week at work and home chores.

Forgot to mention another quad roll over:mrgreen::mrgreen:

BHB

[mooseslayer]

With the cancellation of the 3 point restriction and a tightened season we saw a rebound of bulls with a bit of age.
As a result the herd became healthier relative to their habitat.
This was well before the fires that recently enhanced the current populations.

With recent fires came increased sight lines and a very slow re-gen process due to our arid climate.
More roads.
Endless sight lines.
More roads.
Endless sight lines.......

Backing up......the lengthened season and 3 point restriction from years gone by resulted in very few bulls got to blow out their birthday candles after two years of age.
Mortality on 3 yr+ bulls was brutal underscored by the fact they were virtually non-existent.

Now, thanks to habitat enhancement, our numbers are up.
That number appears to be remaining stable yet harvest numbers are going down.... for three years running. 2014 will show no different.
Hmmmmm.
That says that the percentage of 3-4+ year old bulls surviving the gauntlet that is the OK elk GOS is becoming fewer and fewer.
This is because of the previously mentioned factors.
We are relying on the survival of 3 yr old bulls to provide a fresh crop of legal 6 point bulls the next season.

Open a GOS five point to fuel the appetite for a higher harvest and then a six point bull becomes an anomaly.
We then hammer the two and three year old bulls going forward to the point where a five point is considered a "good bull" for the area.

Drop that down to a three point season to satisfy "opportunity".....immature bulls now make up the majority of the bull population....well, common sense has to become a factor in anyone's optics when looking at this unique area and situation.

I know the inventory intimately and could go on.......

Back to the OP and his point.
If you make a mistake. Report the infraction. Hold your head high for doing the right thing.
Those that make mistakes and admit them sleep at night.
Those that try to cover them up .......


I think you are spot on with this one Ourea....

[Husky7mm]

The hunt achieved the objective.

There are a ton of areas in the EK that could sustain a 3 pts season, namely every road closure. There are still a pile of spots in the EK that have extremely high sex ratios - areas where there are literally no elk shot other than a couple by the outfitter. Hunted for 10 days there, we saw two (2) hunters the whole time in an area that is about 25 kms long.

Your last sentence is a bit of an embellishment. If you want a few spots where the boys are running into lots of elk I don't mind sharing. Just have to lay some boot leather down.

Everyone does get a chance at those elk too, usually around the last week of the season when the migrate to the main valleys. Makes for some fun hunting and is one of the reasons that not all the legal bulls are not taken.

[.300WSMImpact!]

how many region 8 hunters from 2006-2013, I would bet a lot more

[Jagermeister]

The Okanagan Mountain fire and the Garnet fire created some fabulous habitat but as far as the elk go I think the population is not as big as some seem to think. I would bet a dollar that 100-150 animals would be a fairly good estimate of the total population. There are some studies done on elk which suggest that a population below 150 animals shouldn't be hunted.
Back in the days of 3 point or better, as logging and access increased, the population took a big hit. I went into Bob Linchon(sp) and suggested the season should be changed. I never bought an elk tag for ten years feeling the elk population was in such decline. It wasn't until the harvest of bull elk plummeted to next to zero did wildlife biologists recognize there was a problem and the six point or better season was implemented. In discussion with the provincial wildlife biologist I suggested new blood be introduced to try and enhance the genetics of the elk population. The answer I got was that the conflict between the agricultural community and an enhanced elk population would be a huge issue. Mother Nature helped with the recent fires. I think any deviation from the current elk season in the Okanagan would be a huge mistake. In my opinion, hunters who are in favor of a 3 point or better season for elk in the Okanagan are hunters who care not for a responsible wildlife management strategy for elk they are hunters who simply want to shoot an elk.
That elk herd on Okanagan mountain and to the south were a transplant herd to begin with. It was done in the late '40s and it expanded rapidly. By 1952 they were creating a big problem for the orchadists in the Naramata area. I was quite young back then and vaguely remember that if a hunter had an un-used tag (the metal ones) for any animal species, he could harvest one elk regardless of sex or age. The population was vastly reduced. It served two fold, smaller population and those that remained were not so frequent orchard visitors. Of course, tall fences were erected as well.
Aside from the Naramata herd, the other areas to the south did not have any elk. Even the low end of Christian Valley was devoid as well as the Conkle Lake/Mount Baldy too. I believe that the elk migrated westward from the trench much like the whitetail deer.
It would be correct to assume " the conflict between the agricultural community and an enhanced elk population would be a huge issue. "
It's one thing for a elk herd to be in an orchard, can you imagine the mayhem of that same elk herd thundering through a vineyard on the Naramata benches. You will get that liberal elk season if that starts to happen.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

It's one thing for a elk herd to be in an orchard, can you imagine the mayhem of that same elk herd thundering through a vineyard on the Naramata benches. You will get that liberal elk season if that starts to happen.

Oh, I've seen the devastation an elk herd can cause when they break into a block of icewine grapes.:shock::shock::shock:
Cha-Ching!!!!

SSS

[Walksalot]

Oh, I've seen the devastation an elk herd can cause when they break into a block of icewine grapes.:shock::shock::shock:
Cha-Ching!!!!

SSS

A lot of the time the reason for the elk getting into an orchard or vineyard is an open gate. A well maintained fence and closed gates have always kept them out.

[Walksalot]

That elk herd on Okanagan mountain and to the south were a transplant herd to begin with. It was done in the late '40s and it expanded rapidly. By 1952 they were creating a big problem for the orchadists in the Naramata area. I was quite young back then and vaguely remember that if a hunter had an un-used tag (the metal ones) for any animal species, he could harvest one elk regardless of sex or age. The population was vastly reduced. It served two fold, smaller population and those that remained were not so frequent orchard visitors. Of course, tall fences were erected as well.
Aside from the Naramata herd, the other areas to the south did not have any elk. Even the low end of Christian Valley was devoid as well as the Conkle Lake/Mount Baldy too. I believe that the elk migrated westward from the trench much like the whitetail deer.
It would be correct to assume " the conflict between the agricultural community and an enhanced elk population would be a huge issue. "
It's one thing for a elk herd to be in an orchard, can you imagine the mayhem of that same elk herd thundering through a vineyard on the Naramata benches. You will get that liberal elk season if that starts to happen.

My father was born and raised in Penticton and I was born and raised in Penticton(63 years) so we have seen the ups and downs of the elk population. Historically the limiting factor for the elk herd has been habitat. The elk were mistakenly released from rail cars at Arawana way back when.

[Ourea]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1544913]Is there a correlation between herd health and old bulls? Link? Or is it just nice to have big bulls for social reasons?


Quite a few US biologists, the ones that actually have the funding to do comprehensive wildlife surveys compared to us, have been managing elk herds to enhance mature bull numbers for the overall health of general heard. Concerns are over having bulls less than 3 - 5 years of age doing the majority of the breeding.

This is from a paper on Utah elk management objectives that is a common voice with most US states elk management strategies.....

"These influences are definitely affecting season setting, criteria and goals.
These are the primary reasons why we established a statewide goal of moving up and narrowing breeding periods, ESTABLISHING MATURE BULL OBJECTIVES, and capping general season permit numbers."

And yes, part of the mature bull strategy is social but it is also based on science.
Maintaining elk populations at historic age and sex ratios is a viable strategy based on science.
Depleting an age class out of any given population can lead to big problems down the road.

[GoatGuy]

The Okanagan Mountain fire and the Garnet fire created some fabulous habitat but as far as the elk go I think the population is not as big as some seem to think. I would bet a dollar that 100-150 animals would be a fairly good estimate of the total population. There are some studies done on elk which suggest that a population below 150 animals shouldn't be hunted.<br>
<br>That guesstimate is extremely low for 8-9. &nbsp;Winter time in the park often finds more than double that from the air, not to mention the elk south and north. &nbsp;Usually a big group the hangs out in Kelowna now too &gt;50 at the north east end of 8-9.

[Ourea]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1544913]Is there a correlation between herd health and old bulls? Link? Or is it just nice to have big bulls for social reasons?

As I stated early,... a balance of age, specifically with bulls, results in a healthier herd overall.
Reducing restrictions in heavily hunted areas with unlimited access is a slippery slope.

From a paper on Oregon State elk management............

"Studies have shown that
more bulls and older bulls enhance
reproductive effectiveness
and may ultimately improve calf
elk survival. Elk are haremforming
animals which in
naturally balanced populations
have bull/cow ratios
commonly running 50:100 or
higher. The next challenge is
to develop hunting regulations
which achieve desired bull
ratios (statewide minimum of
10 bulls per 100 cows, after hunting
season).".........

[Walksalot]

<br>
<br>That guesstimate is extremely low for 8-9. &nbsp;Winter time in the park often finds more than double that from the air, not to mention the elk south and north. &nbsp;Usually a big group the hangs out in Kelowna now too &gt;50 at the north east end of 8-9.

I am extremely glad to hear that. I have had a bad feeling with regards to the elk numbers in 8-09.

[mechdude]

Well if 3 point is not sustainable and no 6 points because they are hunted out and we as hunters can't do the right thing the only other option is limited entry and we don't want to see that

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A lot of the time the reason for the elk getting into an orchard or vineyard is an open gate. A well maintained fence and closed gates have always kept them out.

Agreed. This was back just after the land changed hands. Issue was taken care of a decade ago

[Ourea]

Well if 3 point is not sustainable and no 6 points because they are hunted out and we as hunters can't do the right thing the only other option is limited entry and we don't want to see that

No one said that there are "no 6 points".
The understanding is that due to hunting pressure and access that the survival rate of bulls beyond 4 years is minimal with the majority being killed the yr they become legal. Reducing the restrictions on this heavily hunted area is not a solution.

[GoatGuy]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1544913]Is there a correlation between herd health and old bulls? Link? Or is it just nice to have big bulls for social reasons?

As I stated early,... a balance of age, specifically with bulls, results in a healthier herd overall.
Reducing restrictions in heavily hunted areas with unlimited access is a slippery slope.

From a paper on Oregon State elk management............

"Studies have shown that
more bulls and older bulls enhance
reproductive effectiveness
and may ultimately improve calf
elk survival. Elk are haremforming
animals which in
naturally balanced populations
have bull/cow ratios
commonly running 50:100 or
higher. The next challenge is
to develop hunting regulations
which achieve desired bull
ratios (statewide minimum of
10 bulls per 100 cows, after hunting
season).".........




Not sure who the author is, but this looks a bit more like a sale's pitch than science.

BC minimum sex ratios are 20:100. Most of BC is going to be in that 35:100 and greater. The places you'll see things lower is around Crazybrook and likely in the ag area in the Peace.

[J_T]

Well if 3 point is not sustainable and no 6 points because they are hunted out and we as hunters can't do the right thing the only other option is limited entry and we don't want to see that In reality there is another option and that is a bow season. Less impact, reduced harvest and maximum participation. Probably increase quality too. But aside from that. I agree with Ourea, no one is saying there aren't 6 pts, but everyone expects them to be standing in the open. We know there are 9 - 12 year old big bulls out there. They just don't make themselves visible and vulnerable. Our observations agree with GG's comments. 20 - 30 bulls per 100 cows. Many of those 'visible' 6pts are young bulls. If we open up to a 5pt season, we need to understand there are many 2 year old 5pts. Good vegetation and genetics does that. And I also understand there are many 5pts which will never become a 6pt. I'm ok with that. Luck of the draw.

[Fisher-Dude]

Quite a few US biologists, the ones that actually have the funding to do comprehensive wildlife surveys compared to us, have been managing elk herds to enhance mature bull numbers for the overall health of general heard. Concerns are over having bulls less than 3 - 5 years of age doing the majority of the breeding.

This is from a paper on Utah elk management objectives that is a common voice with most US states elk management strategies.....

"These influences are definitely affecting season setting, criteria and goals.
These are the primary reasons why we established a statewide goal of moving up and narrowing breeding periods, ESTABLISHING MATURE BULL OBJECTIVES, and capping general season permit numbers."

And yes, part of the mature bull strategy is social but it is also based on science.
Maintaining elk populations at historic age and sex ratios is a viable strategy based on science.
Depleting an age class out of any given population can lead to big problems down the road.














There's nothing in what you posted that indicates a scientific rationale for growing big bulls.

I'd ask you why you want to put all the hunting pressure on the big bull component of the elk population (6 pt) if you're trying to grow big bulls. In every instance I've researched, harvest across all age and sex classes of ungulates results in the "healthiest" herds and results in more large specimens of mature animals than antler-restricted harvest.

[Fisher-Dude]

Thelen (1991) assumed that antler characteristics of
elk were polygenic traits, inherited in simple
Mendelian fashion but with no dominance or epistasis.
Antler size increased with age, but antler characteristics
were also assumed to be an additive function
of multiple loci (i.e. the greater the number of
alleles favorable for large antlers, the larger the
antlers). Heritability, the proportion of variation in
antler size attributable to genotype, varied from 25%
to 75%. Breeding success was controlled by both
age and antler size. Age-specific survival of bulls was
also negatively correlated with antler size (i.e., a survival
cost of carrying heavy antlers was assumed).
Hunting strategies were modeled to reflect various
possible management objectives. Hunting regimes
that specified minimum antler sizes always reduced
the frequency of large antler alleles in modeled populations.
When heritability of antler traits was modeled
as 50%, allele frequencies were altered by
approximately 10–20% after 50 years. When heritability
was assumed to be 75%, the 50-year reduction
in favorable allele frequency was on the order
of 20–25%; with heritability of 25%, the 50-year
reduction was about 10% (Figure 1).
By contrast, other hunting regimes had little
effect on the frequency of existing alleles in the
population. A nonrestricted harvest strategy, in
which the sex and age of individuals harvested was
directly proportional to their abundance in the
population, had little effect on allele frequency
after 50 years. The nonrestricted hunting regime
also resulted in relatively high yield overall, but low
yield of trophy males.But a split hunting regime, in
which spike (mostly yearling) and >5 point (trophy)
males were legally taken (but 2–4 point males
protected) resulted simultaneously in moderate
overall harvest, moderate harvest of trophy males,
and little change in large-antler alleles (Figure 1).
It is likely not coincidental the mortality pattern
produced by the split hunting regime resembled
that of an ungulate population experiencing only
nonhunting mortality (high mortality in young age
classes, low among mature animals, high again as
animals senesce). Thelen’s (1991) model suggested
the possibility of achieving a sustainable harvest
(including of trophy males) while avoiding substantial
alterations in allele frequencies, by moderating
hunting pressure focused on large males and
simultaneously harvesting young males vulnerable
to natural mortality. Klein et al. (1992) also recommended
a split hunting regime as one that would
produce a good compromise between hunter satisfaction
and long-term evolutionary concerns.
Thelen’s results were sensitive to heritability of
antler size (Figure 1). There is little doubt that
antler characteristics are heritable traits (Harmel
1983, Williams et al. 1994, Lukefahr and Jacobson
1998, Wang et al. 1999). However, all studies to date
have estimated heritability under captive conditions,
thus the “unexplained” portion of antler variability
(i.e., that remaining after inheritance is
explained) has been low. In the wild, we would
expect age-specific antler size to vary considerably
with nutritional status as well as with genotype
(Brown 1990).
An additional, important factor in such models is
the strength of reproductive advantage enjoyed by
males with desired traits. Conventional wisdom
suggests that males with the largest horns and
antlers have the highest reproductive success
(Solberg and Sæther 1994). But just how much
higher? The rate of loss of alleles affecting horn and
antler size on the population caused by hunter
selection of large males would be higher if males
vulnerable to hunting dominate the breeding, and
lower if smaller males (which would presumably
survive a selective hunt) also make substantial contributions
under natural conditions.


http://people.montana.com/~rharris/WSBhuntinggenetics.PDF

[GoatGuy]

In reality there is another option and that is a bow season. Less impact, reduced harvest and maximum participation. Probably increase quality too. But aside from that. I agree with Ourea, no one is saying there aren't 6 pts, but everyone expects them to be standing in the open. We know there are 9 - 12 year old big bulls out there. They just don't make themselves visible and vulnerable. Our observations agree with GG's comments. 20 - 30 bulls per 100 cows. Many of those 'visible' 6pts are young bulls. If we open up to a 5pt season, we need to understand there are many 2 year old 5pts. Good vegetation and genetics does that. And I also understand there are many 5pts which will never become a 6pt. I'm ok with that. Luck of the draw.

Down low I think you are correct. I think you will find sex ratios of 50:100 or better in the road closure areas and high elevation winter range areas such as the elk valley are well above 40:100.

The biggest issue I see in terms of controlling the harvest is road density - it's literally out of control. I has also increased the 'un-regulated' (First Nations and poaching) mortality significantly for all species.

Personally, more interested in making more wildlife, and that is a habitat issue.

[Mikey Rafiki]

The nonrestricted hunting regime
also resulted in relatively high yield overall, but lowyield of trophy males.

So this is suggesting that harvest across all sex and age groups results is a low yield of big mature bulls. Is that contrary to what you wrote in the previous post?

But a split hunting regime, in
which spike (mostly yearling) and >5 point (trophy)
males were legally taken (but 2–4 point males
protected) resulted simultaneously in moderate
overall harvest, moderate harvest of trophy males,
and little change in large-antler alleles (Figure 1).

^This is the way to open it up like they did in the Kootenay's, but how many of the hunters that are taking 6 pointers would go out and shoot a spike instead? Maybe a lot, maybe very little.

[Fisher-Dude]

The nonrestricted hunting regime
also resulted in relatively high yield overall, but lowyield of trophy males.

So this is suggesting that harvest across all sex and age groups results is a low yield of big mature bulls. Is that contrary to what you wrote in the previous post?

But a split hunting regime, in
which spike (mostly yearling) and >5 point (trophy)
males were legally taken (but 2–4 point males
protected) resulted simultaneously in moderate
overall harvest, moderate harvest of trophy males,
and little change in large-antler alleles (Figure 1).

^This is the way to open it up like they did in the Kootenay's, but how many of the hunters that are taking 6 pointers would go out and shoot a spike instead? Maybe a lot, maybe very little.

Would appear that that is what that study found, however, most hunters "tagging out" on "meat bulls or cows" rather than killing a 6 point would influence how many mature elk were taken, and I would expect that is why yield on big bulls was relatively lower than in the restricted study.

With >80% of hunters being meat hunters, you can bet they shot the first raghorn or delicious cow that presented an opportunity, rather than holding out for a 6 point bull. Thus, fewer big bulls are harvested under a non-restricted regime than in a 6 point only regime.

When I'm hunting 6 points in the EK with a concurrent spike season, I'll thump a spike if I get the chance, definitely! With the harvest preferences of hunters as I stated above slanted heavily towards meat, so will the vast majority of others.

With the spike season geographically restricted to the ag zones, however, it's likely relatively few are taken. The ones I saw last time I was there during spike season were happily grazing alfalfa behind a big "F Off!" sign. Had to seek out 6ers on public land instead.

[358mag]

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

Link to data ????

[buddyrip]

have had three different bulls inside of 80 yards this week, two were good five points. the third was at least five but couldn't make that final count. had to let him walk. shooting a five point would be poor judgement, not a mistake. shoot first, ask questions later, that's how hunters get killed.

[buddyrip]

could have been one of the ones I saw earlier on the edge of a cut block. wonder where that was?

[OutWest]

If a balance of age, specifically with bulls results in a healthier herd, then shouldn't we be harvesting across all age classes rather than attempting to restrict harvest to a certain class?

The area which most are referring to here is hardly unlimited access - Region 8 sure, 8-09 no. No doubt it has become a popular place to hunt but save for a few years of artificially high harvest, things are coming back down to earth so to speak. With the majority of hunters being meat hunters, they are going to plunk the first legal bull they see whether it's a 3,4,5 or 6 point bull thus spreading harvest out across the male component of the population. Sure, a few more bulls may get shot but if said population is meeting targeted objectives then I fail to see the reluctance to increase hunter opportunity. I guess the question begs, do they want older bulls because they believe it results in a healthier herd or do they want it for purely social reasons?

[j270wsm]

The result of too many years of 6 point only season.

This sounds like the same BS that some people were trying to say about sheep growing smaller horns because we target full curl rams( recent study proved horn/antler growth isnt affected by hunting) All horned/antlered ungulates have a typical antler/horn configuration/shape. This is something that can not be influenced by hunting pressure especially point restrictions.

Since the EK went to 6+pt bulls our elk population has sky rocketed. Most guys that shoot bulls here are shooting 2.5-3.5yr old bulls that are 250-300", 6pt bulls. Back when they still did tooth aging all my 6pt bulls came back at 2.5yrs old, most of them were 270"-285".

[J_T]

If a balance of age, specifically with bulls results in a healthier herd, then shouldn't we be harvesting across all age classes rather than attempting to restrict harvest to a certain class?

The area which most are referring to here is hardly unlimited access - Region 8 sure, 8-09 no. No doubt it has become a popular place to hunt but save for a few years of artificially high harvest, things are coming back down to earth so to speak. With the majority of hunters being meat hunters, they are going to plunk the first legal bull they see whether it's a 3,4,5 or 6 point bull thus spreading harvest out across the male component of the population. Sure, a few more bulls may get shot but if said population is meeting targeted objectives then I fail to see the reluctance to increase hunter opportunity. I guess the question begs, do they want older bulls because they believe it results in a healthier herd or do they want it for purely social reasons?Wouldn't it then make sense to go the route that other regions are? Implement an any bull archery season, distribute archery hunting to include an archery antlerless season, implement a GOS spike season, and increase LEH for antlerless, including opportunities for youth/senior. Would this not result in hunting and harvest across all age classes?

[ellenbill]

The skyrocketing elk population in the east kootenay is more related to the cancellation of the senseless cow/calf slaughter in the 90's and the bad winter 96/97.We have not seen a winter like that since. It sure caught the biologists with their pants down!

Yes the 6 point thing has helped the Bull/Cow ratio but is not the biggest factor in involved.
Its now time to go back to what it was with the exception of shooting cows and calves.

[Husky7mm]

If there were a 5 point season then people would be finding dead 4 points in the bush..... The people that ground check, make mistakes, can't count will still be out there. I have found dead spikes during cow seasons and dead cows during spike season. IMO mostly rookies, and people that are frusterated and running out of time in there hunt. Elk are smart they don't stand beside the road for long. That's where the mistakes happen, by the roads. Reducing access would be a great start to reducing non legal kills, but that doesn't catier to the opportunity push. Plus it would make the accessible areas even more congrested cause quite frankly most don't want to get off their ass.

[Ride Red]

Fisher Dude,

I also started hunting in the later 70's. Yes, the main roads were graded, but a lot of the spur roads were taken out of commission. They weren't completely deactivated, but the access at the intersection or a culvert removed. These were my favorite areas as I was able to walk in without the bother of vehicles driving by and the reason for some of my success back then.

[ellenbill]

If there were a 5 point season then people would be finding dead 4 points in the bush..... The people that ground check, make mistakes, can't count will still be out there. I have found dead spikes during cow seasons and dead cows during spike season. IMO mostly rookies, and people that are frusterated and running out of time in there hunt. Elk are smart they don't stand beside the road for long. That's where the mistakes happen, by the roads. Reducing access would be a great start to reducing non legal kills, but that doesn't catier to the opportunity push. Plus it would make the accessible areas even more congrested cause quite frankly most don't want to get off their ass.


Not likely. In my 60 years of very successful elk hunting I have only ever seen about 3 4points. They go from 3points to 5's,4' are rare. Therefore I doubt you would find many dead 4 points.

[Husky7mm]

I found a dead 4 point bull elk beside busy road a few years back. I have seen a few fours albeit rare. Theres a fair amount on the alberta outdoors cause they have a 3 point season lots of threads of little bulls shot, 3's , 4's, 5's even spikes with little stickers.
My main point is there will always be a % of people that offend.

[j270wsm]

The skyrocketing elk population in the east kootenay is more related to the cancellation of the senseless cow/calf slaughter in the 90's and the bad winter 96/97.We have not seen a winter like that since. It sure caught the biologists with their pants down!

Yes the 6 point thing has helped the Bull/Cow ratio but is not the biggest factor in involved.
Its now time to go back to what it was with the exception of shooting cows and calves.

yes, the high number of cow elk tags in the 90's and the bad winter of 96/97 kicked the sh*t out of our elk population. We have had a few winters since 96 that were hard on the elk and now we have way too many wolves. But there are still lots of 6pt bulls shot in the EK every year.

What will we accomplish by changing the season back to 3+pt?

[j270wsm]

Not likely. In my 60 years of very successful elk hunting I have only ever seen about 3 4points. They go from 3points to 5's,4' are rare. Therefore I doubt you would find many dead 4 points.


Not sure where you hunt but I seen lots of 4pt and 5x4 bulls every year.

[GoatGuy]

Husky,

do you mean to tell me that they have a 3 pts season and it hasn't destroyed the elk population?

my goodness. Now I've heard it all.

[ellenbill]

yes, the high number of cow elk tags in the 90's and the bad winter of 96/97 kicked the sh*t out of our elk population. We have had a few winters since 96 that were hard on the elk and now we have way too many wolves. But there are still lots of 6pt bulls shot in the EK every year.

What will we accomplish by changing the season back to 3+pt?

It might make it easier for us old farts that have trouble getting off our asses to get some meat for the freezer and allow some younger 6 spikes to become prime breeders as well as trophy Bulls for those that hunt for that purpose.

[ellenbill]

Fisher dude has it right!

[358mag]

Fisher dude has it right!
Link to data please and thanks .....:wink::wink:

[358mag]

It might make it easier for us old farts that have trouble getting off our asses to get some meat for the freezer and allow some younger 6 spikes to become prime breeders as well as trophy Bulls for those that hunt for that purpose.

So if you seen a young 6x6 in a 3pt+ season you would pass on it and look for a 3pt ??????

[ellenbill]

Link to data please and thanks .....:wink::wink:

I know this won't satisify you but 60 years of elk hunting has given me all the data I need.

[ellenbill]

So if you seen a young 6x6 in a 3pt+ season you would pass on it and look for a 3pt ??????

Get real, as I said I'm a old fart and want the meat.

[358mag]

I know this won't satisify you but 60 years of elk hunting has given me all the data I need.

As been stated many times on this site by the internet experts "don't let your emotions get in the way of scientific data" that is unless it fits into your plans ........
I respect your 60+ years of hunting and hope you have many more . I am just a rookie with only 45+ years of hunting so still learning .

[J_T]

Fisher dude has it right!Not even close. Not hardly worth a response.

[j270wsm]

It might make it easier for us old farts that have trouble getting off our asses to get some meat for the freezer and allow some younger 6 spikes to become prime breeders as well as trophy Bulls for those that hunt for that purpose.

I'm a meat hunter as well, first legal bull gets it every year. last year my son filled my tag with a cow in the youth/senior season. Did you apply for any of the leh cow tags, or try and take advantage of the youth/senior seasons or the spike bull seasons? There are lots of chances for guys to get elk. Ive ran into a few older guys hunting cows this year, I've told and shown them where the elk hang out. There are lots of 2-3yr old bulls that make it through hunting season. I start seeing them 4-6days after the season ends. Last year I walked 800yds up an old road into a drainage and took pics of 14bulls hanging out together. 11 were 6x6 bulls between 280-325" one was 6x5 and the other 2 were 5pts. These bulls were in an area that gets hunted by lots of people.

[OutWest]

Not even close. Not hardly worth a response.

What exactly is he not even close on? His info is accurate.

[J_T]

What exactly is he not even close on? His info is accurate.
1) he makes the case that the only difference between today and 30 years ago is the number of hunters
2) he believes going back to regulations of 30 years ago would meet current objectives
3) he proposes regulations of 30 years ago would be sustainable

The only accurate statement is the number of hunters. The demographics of the hunter is changing, wildlife management objectives are changing, the influence of First Nations is changing, and the approaches are different in today's world, our habitat, access, hunting styles game calls optics and weapons are much more in favour of the hunter, predator populations influence are all different and I don't see where he is considering any of it.

Look at the elk seasons in region 4 vs those in region 8.

[The Hermit]

My wish list...

Habitat enhancement.
All season any bull archery seasons.
Habitat enhancement.
Vehicle/Road restrictions.
Habitat enhancement.
Time of day quad restrictions. (No ATVs before 9am and from 4pm till dark)
Habitat enhancement.
$10 per head bounty on wolves
Habitat enhancement
$1000 per head bounty on poachers :mrgreen:

And FD here are my links... http://www.beyondbakedbeans.org/custom/L1010087.JPG And here are yours... http://eyebeam.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/node_top/projects/images/sausage.jpeg LOL J/K LOL

[ratherbefishin]

Has the '6 point ' only rule reduced the number of bulls that will ever reach 6 points by taking them out of the genetic pool leaving 5 point Bulls to breed which will never have 6 points?

[Spy]

Not likely. In my 60 years of very successful elk hunting I have only ever seen about 3 4points. They go from 3points to 5's,4' are rare. Therefore I doubt you would find many dead 4 points.


Has the '6 point ' only rule reduced the number of bulls that will ever reach 6 points by taking them out of the genetic pool leaving 5 point Bulls to breed which will never have 6 points?
No still lots of 6 points around to do the breeding.. JT knows what he is talking about :-)

[Spy]

My wish list...

Habitat enhancement.
All season any bull archery seasons.
Habitat enhancement.
Vehicle/Road restrictions.
Habitat enhancement.
Time of day quad restrictions. (No ATVs before 9am and from 4pm till dark)
Habitat enhancement.
$10 per head bounty on wolves
Habitat enhancement
$1000 per head bounty on poachers :mrgreen:

And FD here are my links... http://www.beyondbakedbeans.org/custom/L1010087.JPG And here are yours... http://eyebeam.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/node_top/projects/images/sausage.jpeg LOL J/K LOL
I like your wish list but would put a bigger bounty on wolves & poachers ;-)

[Spy]

Wouldn't it then make sense to go the route that other regions are? Implement an any bull archery season, distribute archery hunting to include an archery antlerless season, implement a GOS spike season, and increase LEH for antlerless, including opportunities for youth/senior. Would this not result in hunting and harvest across all age classes?

That makes way to much sense ;-)

[ellenbill]

What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander! Bow hunter paradise?

[J_T]

What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander! Bow hunter paradise?
Not talking about a bowhunters paradise. Talking about appropriate harvest levels for sustainable participation. Time to see it for more than just user groups. There are tons of bowhunters/rifle hunters and on this site is a good example.

[Husky7mm]

Husky,

do you mean to tell me that they have a 3 pts season and it hasn't destroyed the elk population?

my goodness. Now I've heard it all.

No, but they try their damnedest!!!! My guess is to appease farmers, tons of ag land, the only thing they want to manage in northern alberta is to keep the elk numbers down.

[GoatGuy]

No, but they try their damnedest!!!! My guess is to appease farmers, tons of ag land, the only thing they want to manage in northern alberta is to keep the elk numbers down.
They manage elk numbers through a 3 pts restriction? They don't have antlerless hunting?

[358mag]

They manage elk numbers through a 3 pts restriction? They don't have antlerless hunting?
Lots of antlerless elk hunting resident hunting LEH in northern Alberta , buddy + his crew always get a draw .

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We'll never know what kind of seasons that the elk can sustain since we don't have enough money for proper inventories. The bios always have to err on the side of caution.

Welcome to wildlife management in BC.

SSS

[J_T]

We'll never know what kind of seasons that the elk can sustain since we don't have enough money for proper inventories. The bios always have to err on the side of caution.

Welcome to wildlife management in BC.

SSSWell, that does seem to be the case in Reg 8. In Reg 4 we continue to introduce new opportunities and revise existing opportunities on an ongoing basis to find the balance between objectives and sustainability. Everyone has bought into the idea of dynamic management. Give something a try, if it doesn't go according to predictions, adjust. But adjust quickly.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Well, that does seem to be the case in Reg 8. In Reg 4 we continue to introduce new opportunities and revise existing opportunities on an ongoing basis to find the balance between objectives and sustainability. Everyone has bought into the idea of dynamic management. Give something a try, if it doesn't go according to predictions, adjust. But adjust quickly.

Region 4 certainly has had more 'practical' inventory work in recent years than over here in Region 8. We seem to spend limited resources counting moose....finding more moose than previous counts....but it has resulted in decreased opportunity.
We might just have to take on your dynamic approach and see what happens.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

Region 4 certainly has had more 'practical' inventory work in recent years than over here in Region 8. We seem to spend limited resources counting moose....finding more moose than previous counts....but it has resulted in decreased opportunity.
We might just have to take on your dynamic approach and see what happens.

SSS


Yes, we double our moose population and then cut the season in half. Maybe ignorance is bliss?

At least the non-residents can still go shoot as many bulls as they did before the residents had their season chopped in half. That's all that matters in BC, a viable guide-outfitter industry.

[Fisher-Dude]

Not even close. Not hardly worth a response.

As long as bow hunters can shoot any bull you don't care what the vast majority of hunters are allowed to shoot. Well, I should rephrase that, because you do care what the rest of the hunters are allowed to shoot: as long as a rifle hunter doesn't shoot a 4 point, you're happy because a bow guy can shoot it.

Too bad there aren't more organizations looking out for the interests of ALL hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

My wish list...

Habitat enhancement. Valid
All season any bull archery seasons. Social?
Habitat enhancement. Valid
Vehicle/Road restrictions. Social
Habitat enhancement. Valid
Time of day quad restrictions. (No ATVs before 9am and from 4pm till dark) Uber-social
Habitat enhancement. Valid
$10 per head bounty on wolves Unless you kill 80% of wolves every year, put the $10 toward something meaningful, like habitat
Habitat enhancement Valid
$1000 per head bounty on poachers :mrgreen: Vaild

And FD here are my links... http://www.beyondbakedbeans.org/custom/L1010087.JPG And here are yours... http://eyebeam.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/node_top/projects/images/sausage.jpeg LOL J/K LOL


My comments in bold.

Social regulations are what have killed off hunters and cheapened the value of wildlife in government's eyes for the past 40 years. All we have now after this 40 year experiment is less game and groups like yours calling for more social regulations.

A better solution is to make more game.

[J_T]

As long as bow hunters can shoot any bull you don't care what the vast majority of hunters are allowed to shoot. Well, I should rephrase that, because you do care what the rest of the hunters are allowed to shoot: as long as a rifle hunter doesn't shoot a 4 point, you're happy because a bow guy can shoot it.

Too bad there aren't more organizations looking out for the interests of ALL hunters.
Yawn. I'm confused, I'm out there now, hunting a 6 pt, just like everyone else.

[GoatGuy]

Well, that does seem to be the case in Reg 8. In Reg 4 we continue to introduce new opportunities and revise existing opportunities on an ongoing basis to find the balance between objectives and sustainability. Everyone has bought into the idea of dynamic management. Give something a try, if it doesn't go according to predictions, adjust. But adjust quickly.

Region 4 isn't managing by objectives, it's managing when minimums are triggered.

The antlerless elk is entirely for homesteader elk, pushed exclusively by the ranching community. Local hunters have always thought more elk better, even if they lived on winter range 12 months/year. The Minister held on to the decision until the very last minute to close the GOS. The ranchers still do not support the regulatory suite and at this point one of the most famous loudmouths is also pushing to have her land removed from the ALR so it can be chopped up and sold to Alberta. Oddly enough it is being supported by the elected officials. This direction will certainly have a long lasting effect on wildlife populations as the red plate cash flow will be a huge incentive for landowners to move their property out of large holdings and into a subdivision.

Your managers recognize they are managing entirely for social reasons and that it has next to nothing to do with sustainability or objectives. The road closures which were implemented for sheep and as refugia for elk when there was a 3 pts season have now become a social restriction.

Just got done hunting in the EK the other week - saw two resident sheep hunters, the first residents we've seen in there for over 5 years. The area is loaded with elk and I bet there hasn't been a resident elk hunter in there for over 10 years. There were a couple guys that hunted one drainage in about 30 kms. All this on a 6 pts season. Guess the objective is to shoot 0 elk in the area.

Goat leh which are chopped up into a hundred sub-units, and managed downward to ensure harvest never occurs.

Just like the 4 pts mule deer season in Region 4. What a joke. Everyone in the branch recognizes it is entirely social, and will not do a thing for mule deer. It also has nothing to do with the management objectives or sustainability.

We can even go back a few years and find inflated population estimates for multiple species to increase quota and consistent and consecutive outfitter over-harvest.


Given the abundance of wildlife populations, particularly elk, region 4 has some of the most tragic management in BC, second only to the Peace. Just like the rest of the province, you are managing socially and only to minimums.

The big difference between region 4 and 8 on elk is region 8 has a fraction of the elk, and very few ag conflicts. If we had 5,000 elk sitting on farmers fields eating their crops I'm sure there would be wayyyyy more cow harvested and a spike season as well.

BC is so far behind the rest of North America it isn't even funny. No money, no management.

[J_T]

Region 4 isn't managing by objectives, it's managing when minimums are triggered.

The antlerless elk is entirely for homesteader elk, pushed exclusively by the ranching community. Local hunters have always thought more elk better, even if they lived on winter range 12 months/year. The Minister held on to the decision until the very last minute to close the GOS. The ranchers still do not support the regulatory suite and at this point one of the most famous loudmouths is also pushing to have her land removed from the ALR so it can be chopped up and sold to Alberta. Oddly enough it is being supported by the elected officials. This direction will certainly have a long lasting effect on wildlife populations as the red plate cash flow will be a huge incentive for landowners to move their property out of large holdings and into a subdivision.

Your managers recognize they are managing entirely for social reasons and that it has next to nothing to do with sustainability or objectives. The road closures which were implemented for sheep and as refugia for elk when there was a 3 pts season have now become a social restriction.

Just got done hunting in the EK the other week - saw two resident sheep hunters, the first residents we've seen in there for over 5 years. The area is loaded with elk and I bet there hasn't been a resident elk hunter in there for over 10 years. There were a couple guys that hunted one drainage in about 30 kms. All this on a 6 pts season. Guess the objective is to shoot 0 elk in the area.

Goat leh which are chopped up into a hundred sub-units, and managed downward to ensure harvest never occurs.

Just like the 4 pts mule deer season in Region 4. What a joke. Everyone in the branch recognizes it is entirely social, and will not do a thing for mule deer. It also has nothing to do with the management objectives or sustainability.

We can even go back a few years and find inflated population estimates for multiple species to increase quota and consistent and consecutive outfitter over-harvest.


Given the abundance of wildlife populations, particularly elk, region 4 has some of the most tragic management in BC, second only to the Peace. Just like the rest of the province, you are managing socially and only to minimums.

The big difference between region 4 and 8 on elk is region 8 has a fraction of the elk, and very few ag conflicts. If we had 5,000 elk sitting on farmers fields eating their crops I'm sure there would be wayyyyy more cow harvested and a spike season as well.

BC is so far behind the rest of North America it isn't even funny. No money, no management. Your comment about the number of elk between Reg 4 and Reg 8 is the key here. This conversation started because there was discussion of so many elk in Reg 8 that a 3pt season should be implemented. "reg 8 has a fraction of the elk".

Whether we're managing by objective or minimum trigger is almost irrelevant. Unless you define both. At least in Reg 4 we're creating new opportunity based on some criteria. And adjusting. Of course there is a social pressure. I guess that's life. To many people worried about themselves. And too bad about the 5000 elk in the fields, 5 years ago, there was 15000. I was pushing for 30,000. It doesn't take long to bring the population down. To someone's target objective. But I/we as hunters don't make the rules, we operate within them. At least we have an opportunity here for input.

I'm not sure about your reference to your recent hunt unless it's just to admit that you too see better hunting in the EK than Reg 8. I agree. Not seeing other hunters in the area you choose to hunt is great.

[GoatGuy]

Your comment about the number of elk between Reg 4 and Reg 8 is the key here. This conversation started because there was discussion of so many elk in Reg 8 that a 3pt season should be implemented. "reg 8 has a fraction of the elk".

Whether we're managing by objective or minimum trigger is almost irrelevant. Unless you define both. At least in Reg 4 we're creating new opportunity based on some criteria. And adjusting. Of course there is a social pressure. I guess that's life. To many people worried about themselves. And too bad about the 5000 elk in the fields, 5 years ago, there was 15000. I was pushing for 30,000. It doesn't take long to bring the population down. To someone's target objective. But I/we as hunters don't make the rules, we operate within them. At least we have an opportunity here for input.

I'm not sure about your reference to your recent hunt unless it's just to admit that you too see better hunting in the EK than Reg 8. I agree. Not seeing other hunters in the area you choose to hunt is great.

Yes, if it's a question of sustainability a 3 pt season could be implemented in parts of Region 8, other places it wouldn't work, same as region 4. Point is, it isn't a sustainability or conservation related issue at all. It's a bunch of social BS. There is no reason for a region wide 6 pts season in region 4 other than social.

The management minimum for bulls is fail safe. All you have is 20 bulls per 100 cows, that is it. The current regulatory regime is not a sustainability or conservation related issue, it's a fail-safe regulation. You are cherry picking, not managing a resource.

I think it's a waste of a resource. Having a road closure on a 6 pts season which no resident hunters ever use is pretty ridiculous. There's no reason in the world why there couldn't be a 3 pts season to incentivize some people to go in and shoot some elk instead of stockpiling them in those areas. I don't hunt elk, have very little interest. Having said that a yearling or two year old bull is far, far more attractive than a 4 or 5 year old. Have no idea what a person does with a collection of 280-320" runts from the EK. A lot of chew toys for the dog. Get a real kick from all the 'big bull' hunters.

[GoatGuy]

Lots of antlerless elk hunting resident hunting LEH in northern Alberta , buddy + his crew always get a draw .

So they have a 3 pts season and antlerless hunting and they still have elk. Crazyness!

[ellenbill]

[QUOTE=J_T;1546761]Your comment about the number of elk between Reg 4 and Reg 8 is the key here. This conversation started because there was discussion of so many elk in Reg 8 that a 3pt season should be implemented. "reg 8 has a fraction of the elk".

Whether we're managing by objective or minimum trigger is almost irrelevant. Unless you define both. At least in Reg 4 we're creating new opportunity based on some criteria. And adjusting. Of course there is a social pressure. I guess that's life. To many people worried about themselves. And too bad about the 5000 elk in the fields, 5 years ago, there was 15000. I was pushing for 30,000. It doesn't take long to bring the population down. To someone's target objective. But I/we as hunters don't make the rules, we operate within them. At least we have an opportunity here for input.

I'm not sure about your reference to your recent hunt unless it's just to admit that you too see better hunting in the EK than Reg 8. I agree. Not seeing other hunters in the area you choose to hunt is great.[/

Cam you explain what you mean by "we're creating new opportunity based on some criteria" I have seen no change for Elk other than hunting in the trench below 1100 metres and that's a zoo.

[358mag]

So they have a 3 pts season and antlerless hunting and they still have elk. Crazyness!

Not sure if its a GOS for bulls or what there antler restrictions are . But yes they do have elk ,most of my buddy's hunting is done on private farm land and getting permission is a little tough .
Sure we could also have a 3pt season out here too but for how long and would it be in the best interest of the elk or just the best interest of the hunters . Would make great round table talk at the next allocations meeting .
Guess we could also push for a 3/4 curl GOS for region 4 bighorns and see how that goes too ......:wink:

[Mikey Rafiki]

I don't hunt elk, have very little interest. Having said that a yearling or two year old bull is far, far more attractive than a 4 or 5 year old.

Can't tell the difference between my 6 pointer this year and my spiker from last year except for another 100 pounds of premium venison. My uneducated guess would be 3.5 years old so maybe I hit the sweet spot on size and taste. They were both taken in early archery season so I think that helps the yum factor too.

Those elk from road closures get hunted hard once they move into the main valleys come October, if we are talking about areas they migrate out of like Quinn Creek. I know all the road closures in the main trench get hunted hard.

I'm all for more opportunity if it's sustainable but it has to be preceded by convincing education, which I fear is impossible as proven when everyone thought the mule deer would go extinct once it went to any buck.

[GoatGuy]

Sure we could also have a 3pt season out here too but for how long and would it be in the best interest of the elk or just the best interest of the hunters . Would make great round table talk at the next allocations meeting .
Guess we could also push for a 3/4 curl GOS for region 4 bighorns and see how that goes too ......:wink:

Places that could sustain it and places that couldn't in Region 8. Some spots definitely have to reduce road density, even with the current regime, particularly for other species. Stuff becomes pretty easy with funding for inventory and clear objectives. Convoluted when people don't want to increase inventory and funding, but would rather put in their 0.02, and increase their own slice of the pie. Seems pretty common, even more clear when reading the proposals.

Allocations meetings probably wouldn't be the best place for discussion, as conservation pokes it's head out seldom to never. People show up looking for a handout instead of trying to make more wildlife.

With the handouts, poachers, inflated population estimates, and historical over-harvest bighorns in Region 4 have their own set of problems. That was before a couple bad winters. Guess is the harvest will be less than 15 rams this year for the whole region. Again, branch staff are probably busy writing responses to quota appeals instead of working on wildlife populations in Region 4.

The days of the "me" people.

[GoatGuy]

Sure we could also have a 3pt season out here too but for how long and would it be in the best interest of the elk or just the best interest of the hunters . Would make great round table talk at the next allocations meeting .
Guess we could also push for a 3/4 curl GOS for region 4 bighorns and see how that goes too ......:wink:

Places that could sustain it and places that couldn't in Region 8. Some spots definitely have to reduce road density, even with the current regime, particularly for other species. Stuff becomes pretty easy with funding for inventory and clear objectives. Convoluted when people don't want to increase inventory and funding, but would rather put in their 0.02, and increase their own slice of the pie. Seems pretty common, even more clear when reading the proposals.

Allocations meetings probably wouldn't be the best place for discussion, as conservation pokes it's head out seldom to never. People show up looking for a handout instead of trying to make more wildlife.

With the handouts, poachers, inflated population estimates, and historical over-harvest bighorns in Region 4 have their own set of problems. That was before a couple bad winters. Guess is the harvest will be less than 15 rams this year for the whole region. Again, branch staff are probably busy writing responses to quota appeals instead of working on wildlife populations in Region 4.

The days of the "me" people.

[GoatGuy]

Can't tell the difference between my 6 pointer this year and my spiker from last year except for another 100 pounds of premium venison. My uneducated guess would be 3.5 years old so maybe I hit the sweet spot on size and taste. They were both taken in early archery season so I think that helps the yum factor too.

Those elk from road closures get hunted hard once they move into the main valleys come October, if we are talking about areas they migrate out of like Quinn Creek. I know all the road closures in the main trench get hunted hard.

I'm all for more opportunity if it's sustainable but it has to be preceded by convincing education, which I fear is impossible as proven when everyone thought the mule deer would go extinct once it went to any buck.
If we're seeing 340 bulls in the ek I think a bunch of them are escaping bullets when they push down.

your last sentence is bang on. Going on close to 20 years without doe hunting mule deer in the ek with little sign of "abundance" and people are still concerned with any buck. So sad.

[LBM]

The hunt achieved the objective.

There are a ton of areas in the EK that could sustain a 3 pts season, namely every road closure. There are still a pile of spots in the EK that have extremely high sex ratios - areas where there are literally no elk shot other than a couple by the outfitter. Hunted for 10 days there, we saw two (2) hunters the whole time in an area that is about 25 kms long.

Your last sentence is a bit of an embellishment. If you want a few spots where the boys are running into lots of elk I don't mind sharing. Just have to lay some boot leather down.

Don't think you can consider all road closures as the same, a couple buddys and I have been in a few this year and seen more hunters then anything, even the ones that still drive in.
But I will take you up on your offer about sharing we will bike/hike into the area where you only saw 2 hunters send me the info. Thanks.

[358mag]

Places that could sustain it and places that couldn't in Region 8. Some spots definitely have to reduce road density, even with the current regime, particularly for other species. Stuff becomes pretty easy with funding for inventory and clear objectives. Convoluted when people don't want to increase inventory and funding, but would rather put in their 0.02, and increase their own slice of the pie. Seems pretty common, even more clear when reading the proposals.

Allocations meetings probably wouldn't be the best place for discussion, as conservation pokes it's head out seldom to never. People show up looking for a handout instead of trying to make more wildlife.

With the handouts, poachers, inflated population estimates, and historical over-harvest bighorns in Region 4 have their own set of problems. That was before a couple bad winters. Guess is the harvest will be less than 15 rams this year for the whole region. Again, branch staff are probably busy writing responses to quota appeals instead of working on wildlife populations in Region 4.

The days of the "me" people.
Nice to see that someone sees the big picture we have to be conservationist first if we want to continue hunting . The days of the me me II are hopefully in the past .
Must be time for a road side campfire and cold happy pophttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.png

[Fisher-Dude]

Don't think you can consider all road closures as the same, a couple buddys and I have been in a few this year and seen more hunters then anything, even the ones that still drive in.
But I will take you up on your offer about sharing we will bike/hike into the area where you only saw 2 hunters send me the info. Thanks.

But did you get off the road in the road closure? Could be everyone hunting the same 66 foot wide right-of-way, expecting to have it all to themselves.

[HarryToolips]

Season used to be 3 point, 3 months long with more elk hunters..........



Granted.
There were also only a fraction of the FSR's that we currently now see.
Most of the once extensive old growth has been removed or dissected leaving very little undisturbed habitat for elk to survive and hide in compared to the era you are referring to. The Okanagan population has more than tripled leading to unprecedented encroachment. There are more and more tools at a hunters disposal none of the least being social media that pretty much pulls the pants down on any area.
FN's is becoming an unquantified factor in the majority of harvest do to said FSR density and unprecedented access to elk areas.
The dynamics have changed dramatically and regulation needs to reflect that understanding.
Do to the mentioned factors we are already seeing a significant drop in harvest and is trending down aggressively.


What would limiting opportunity and harvest do for elk?

It would allow for a robust herd that is balanced in both age and sex which puts more legal bulls out overall.
The later seasons and 3 point restriction back in the day was a major factor in hammering down the overall health of our Reg 8 herd.
If memory serves harvest plummeted to a handful of elk being legally harvested in the OK area for a number of years.
Of that harvest almost all were 3 points with an occasional 5 point.
(Ironically half of that harvest was from the same 3 or 4 guys every year)

Anyway, that's the first few things that jump out at me at first blush.[/QUOTE]



I'm no expert but I would think that with a little funding, somehow, toward de-activating a percentage of spurs off of main FSR's, the elk hunting AND moose AND mule deer hunting in the Okanagan would be greatly enhanced in the coming years...

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm no expert but I would think that with a little funding, somehow, toward de-activating a percentage of spurs off of main FSR's, the elk hunting AND moose AND mule deer hunting in the Okanagan would be greatly enhanced in the coming years...

When hunter harvest is NOT a factor in these game populations with the current restrictive and LEH seasons, how will your plan improve elk/moose/mule deer hunting?

[GoatGuy]

Don't think you can consider all road closures as the same, a couple buddys and I have been in a few this year and seen more hunters then anything, even the ones that still drive in.
But I will take you up on your offer about sharing we will bike/hike into the area where you only saw 2 hunters send me the info. Thanks.

Hahaha, for you I would recommend the akamina kishenina. Pile of country, next to no hunters and some whopper elk.

Road closure starts september 10th.

Have fun.

[ellenbill]

When hunter harvest is NOT a factor in these game populations with the current restrictive and LEH seasons, how will your plan improve elk/moose/mule deer hunting?

Good point Fisher dude.Back in the 50s and 60s there was relatively little access to the elk in the okanagan and not many hunters.The elk numbers did not increase much beyond what it is today.

[HarryToolips]

When hunter harvest is NOT a factor in these game populations with the current restrictive and LEH seasons, how will your plan improve elk/moose/mule deer hunting?

-First off, I suggest picking up a copy of the BC Outdoors Magazine and educate yourself, read the 2014 hunting forecast
-Reducing road access would thus far be our only way of reducing FN's harvest
-Links to road access impact on moose populations, as I posted for you on the thread that I started about FSR De-activation:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/moose.pdf
Can't seem to copy a link on this one, so google this one:

ROAD DENSITY AND POTENTIAL IMPACTS ON WILDLIFE
SPECIES SUCH AS AMERICAN MOOSE
IN MAINLAND NOVA SCOTIA

I know these are for moose, but you should get the idea..
-Finally, road access is known to give preds an upper hand:
http://www.wildlandsleague.org/attachments/Roads.Report.pdf

[Fisher-Dude]

So you want to control FN harvest? Do you have any documentation of the impact of FN harvest on animal populations in the areas you're proposing (ie, not Nova Scotia moose which have no preds and vastly different habitat from the Okanagan)?

How did moose and elk numbers double in the Okanagan the past decade with the huge FN harvest impacts you're assuming?

Have you investigated the legal ramifications of your idea which could be considered an infringement on FN rights?

These are the questions that game and forestry officials will be asking you when you knock on the door with your head full of ideas.

I really hope you're not relying on BC Outdoors' hunting forecast to guide your hunting. That would be like relying on Jelvis' 1982 road synopsis to guide your next trek into the forest. Perhaps that's the reason for your shitty success rate rather than a lack of game animals?

[J_T]

Cam you explain what you mean by "we're creating new opportunity based on some criteria" I have seen no change for Elk other than hunting in the trench below 1100 metres and that's a zoo.

Contrary to what GG is suggesting about participants on the wildlife committee. I believe through working together everyone has a greater understanding of the pursuits of others and greater respect. Of course there are times when discussions get heated. It's what you do with the information that is important.

To your point:
It isn't all about wildlife management in the EK, but all of Reg 4.
In 2010, where elk in the West Kootenay not on LEH?

In 2011 a WK GOS for elk was created, season length was consistent with other WK Mu's, Oct 1 - 20
In the EK, a Sr/Yth season for antlerless was introduced
In the EK we saw our first spike season in a long time.
Of course this might be targeting the rancher agenda, but it is still about creating opportunity

In 2012 - 2014 Regulations the WK elk GOS was aligned to a Sept 10th opening
The WK archery season was also aligned to Sept 1-9 and remaining MU's were added

In 2014 - 2016 we've adjusted antlerless harvest by removing the GOS antlerless, shifting to a lower harvest model on cows through archery and continued to maintain focus on whining ranchers with some private land hunts. I see this as inconsequential for the most part, but the action does portray acknowledgement of the position of the ranchers.

May seem like small steps to some, but I know it's a lot of work for others. I did want to add, if you are having difficulty finding quiet locations to hunt below 1100 send me a PM. It can be difficult to think outside the high fences and what we traditionally see as the agriculture zone. Take a good look at the map for the sub 1100 metre. Lots of good pockets to hunt.

[The Hermit]

My comments in bold.

Social regulations are what have killed off hunters and cheapened the value of wildlife in government's eyes for the past 40 years. All we have now after this 40 year experiment is less game and groups like yours calling for more social regulations.

A better solution is to make more game.

FD - You are like a spoiled little boy worried that your brother might get a gold star when you only got a silver star... pick up a bow and get to work slacker... nothing is stopping you from enjoying the opportunity, you even own a crossbow!

You see my brother it isn't just about "social" reasons its actually about creating opportunity within a conservative conservation model. To wit, bowhunters take far fewer animals than rifle hunters due to the difficulty inherent in the pursuit, ergo by expanding "bowhunting" opportunity we create opportunity for anyone that wants to hunt hard. I'm proposing that we take animals across the age/maturity spectrum which you seems to think and agree is a good idea. The question is whether a GOS is sustainable given today's reality, and as much as you still like the 60's and 70's things have changed..... its time to toss out your bell bottoms and put down the pipe my friend!

To the OPs point since we are up close and personal at the moment of truth bowhunters are less likely to miscount tines when there are antler restrictions (regardless of the efficacy validity of said restrictions).

Similarly road closures do protect over hunted herds/drainages... (wolves, bear, cougar, poachers, and hunters regardless of race). Clowures are reviewed every year at teh Provincial table and seem to be agreed upon by the BCWF as well as the other participants.

I'll admit that in MY personal perfect hunting nirvana that quads simply screw things up... environmental damage, and interrupting herd behaviour... see this year after year. I love riding for the joy of it, and quads are awesome tools for game extraction but otherwise suck sausage. If you are just riding logging roads take the truck, quieter, safer, warmer.

When are you coming to the island... free archery lesson for you anytime! See bowhunters aren't eletist snobs, we would even welcome YOU! ;-)

[Fisher-Dude]

When there's no scientific reason to restrict harvest, there's no need for access restrictions nor special weapons seasons.

With the moose and elk populations doubling in the past decade in the area of discussion, why should hunters support further restrictions on hunting them?

[The Hermit]

I agree, "when there is no conservation concern" then we are on the same page and as bowhunters have said all along, we don't want to take anything away from rifle hunters. We DO want to encourage new and youth hunters.

The question remains as to whether an any bull GOS is sustainable in the long run. l have my doubts... it isn't 1970. However, allowing a hunter to take any bull with a bow won't have any significant impact on populations but would increase his/her odds and perhaps balance out the kill across the maturity span which is desirable. Moreover, it may encourage people to take up bow hunting and parents to take their kids out bow hunting ergo any way you slice it - increase opportunity and increase the number of hunters out there with virtually zero conservation risk.

Wouldn't you rather have a bow season than an LEH?

[HarryToolips]

So you want to control FN harvest? Do you have any documentation of the impact of FN harvest on animal populations in the areas you're proposing (ie, not Nova Scotia moose which have no preds and vastly different habitat from the Okanagan)?

How did moose and elk numbers double in the Okanagan the past decade with the huge FN harvest impacts you're assuming?

Have you investigated the legal ramifications of your idea which could be considered an infringement on FN rights?

These are the questions that game and forestry officials will be asking you when you knock on the door with your head full of ideas.

I really hope you're not relying on BC Outdoors' hunting forecast to guide your hunting. That would be like relying on Jelvis' 1982 road synopsis to guide your next trek into the forest. Perhaps that's the reason for your shitty success rate rather than a lack of game animals?

Why do you think I have had shitty success? Because I've passed on smaller deer/bears/wt does with fawns?? My first few seasons I harvested plenty of bucks. I've also learnt hunting all on my own, I've never had an oldie like you to teach me:mrgreen:.. My next door neighbor's are FN's, their regs that they are 'supposed' to follow are bucks/bulls harvest only, considering for moose our bull:cow ratio is not within MOE guidelines in certain MU's within reg8, I would think it would be them rather than our spike-fork bull harvest, because as you say, our GOS's are very restrictive.. The BC outdoors magazine also gets all of their data from the MOE, who get their data from hunters filling out their 'Hunter Harvest Questionaires'. They also believe that in some MU's within reg8 and reg3, our 'sustainable harvest' for mule deer is reaching it's max.. De-activating a few spurs off of main FSR's certainly won't hinder the populations.. and you also failed to recognize the proven research about road access increasing predation, and that as we know is a huge factor on overall ungulate populations..

[Fisher-Dude]

Where is your proof that road using preds (wolves) are taking a toll on moose and elk in Region 8? There's no data whatsoever to support that assertion, as the populations are climbing rapidly. I've found one wolf kill of a moose in the past 3 years, yet I've found many more 3 point moose shot and left than that.

Deer counts are well within MoE guidelines as well. There are no sex ratios in the whole region that are approaching a conservation concern. "Sustainable harvest reaching its max" is a fallacy when sex ratios are fine with a male-only harvest. We don't manage to deer numbers, we manage to sustainable sex ratios.

Have you signed up to help on the winter range project, to actually make more animals, or do you find it easier to go on about layering more regulations on hunters? We've restricted hunters for 40 years, and where has that got us?

Also, have you spoken to the BCWF Access Chairman and Committee for Region 8 about this? Without their support, you won't get anywhere, and I'm quite confident that I already know what their response to you will be. They'll be asking for proof of access being detrimental when the moose and elk pops have doubled and deer ratios are solid.

[GoatGuy]

Where is your proof that road using preds (wolves) are taking a toll on moose and elk in Region 8? There's no data whatsoever to support that assertion, as the populations are climbing rapidly. I've found one wolf kill of a moose in the past 3 years, yet I've found many more 3 point moose shot and left than that.

Deer counts are well within MoE guidelines as well. There are no sex ratios in the whole region that are approaching a conservation concern. "Sustainable harvest reaching its max" is a fallacy when sex ratios are fine with a male-only harvest. We don't manage to deer numbers, we manage to sustainable sex ratios.

Have you signed up to help on the winter range project, to actually make more animals, or do you find it easier to go on about layering more regulations on hunters? We've restricted hunters for 40 years, and where has that got us?

Also, have you spoken to the BCWF Access Chairman and Committee for Region 8 about this? Without their support, you won't get anywhere, and I'm quite confident that I already know what their response to you will be. They'll be asking for proof of access being detrimental when the moose and elk pops have doubled and deer ratios are solid.

Your moose season went from 6 weeks to 2 weeks.

That is because of access.

Simple.

[Fisher-Dude]

Your moose season went from 6 weeks to 2 weeks.

That is because of access.

Simple.

Really? Or an overly-conservative manager who likes donuts and coffee from a segment of the population that opposes our moose hunt?

Don't switch horses in mid-stream.

[GoatGuy]

Really? Or an overly-conservative manager who likes donuts and coffee from a segment of the population that opposes our moose hunt?

Don't switch horses in mid-stream.

No, it's because of access. The provincial minimum is 30 bulls:100 cows. Those are the rules we live by, otherwise you're no different than raincoast, the suzuki foundation or the other anecdotal folks out there.

Did the work on it. Best predictor of spike-fork harvest is road density in early seral cutblocks. That is what kills moose, not road density, or even moose density, it's roads into new cutblocks. I would expect similar results for mule deer, which are going to be below provincial minimums in some MUs as well.

Harry is correct, road density into regen also has a huge impact on First Nations and poaching related mortality. That was already well established in other jurisdictions.

Ride for the science brand.

It's a choice; access versus opportunity. Looks like your choice is access. Personally, I don't think access is a "God-given" right. Would rather have the opportunity to have a tag in hand then drive all over hell's half acre with a NIL.

[HarryToolips]

Exactly GoatGuy..that is what I am trying to say FD, I know the elk and mulies are doing OK, but I also love moose-hunting, and would like to see the spike-fork season increased again to Sept 20- Oct31 like it was before and how it is in many other regions around reg8. Rather have access cut down and a tag in hand like GG says compared to waiting 20 years for a LEH to hunt a moose in the Okanagan..

[Fisher-Dude]

Here's what will happen: you'll restrict access and the season won't change. Guaranteed.

One need only look at GoatHumper's favourite place, region 4, where access was restricted years ago when there were more liberal 3 point elk seasons and any muley buck and any bull moose, and now with way shorter antler-restricted seasons, these closures are still in place.

There's no conservation concerns whatsoever in these closed areas, and seasons are severely restricted, yet the roads remain closed. Go figure.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Even a 727 pilot should get it, but apparently not. Although some on here lobby day and night to remove those region 4 access restrictions, they get confused in region 8 and lobby for closures even with fail-safe, short, antler-restricted seasons. Uuuuuuuummmmmmmm.........

[GoatGuy]

Here's what will happen: you'll restrict access and the season won't change. Guaranteed.

One need only look at GoatHumper's favourite place, region 4, where access was restricted years ago when there were more liberal 3 point elk seasons and any muley buck and any bull moose, and now with way shorter antler-restricted seasons, these closures are still in place.

There's no conservation concerns whatsoever in these closed areas, and seasons are severely restricted, yet the roads remain closed. Go figure.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Even a 727 pilot should get it, but apparently not. Although some on here lobby day and night to remove those region 4 access restrictions, they get confused in region 8 and lobby for closures even with fail-safe, short, antler-restricted seasons. Uuuuuuuummmmmmmm.........

Hahahaha, you've already lost opportunity because of the "god given right" to access. If you want to continue to lose opportunity continue to push for unmitigated access.

[J_T]

Hahahaha, you've already lost opportunity because of the "god given right" to access. If you want to continue to lose opportunity continue to push for unmitigated access. Well, there is a balance that might be found. FD could have all the access he demands, but he might have to hunt with a bow to keep it sustainable.

[GoatGuy]

Well, there is a balance that might be found. FD could have all the access he demands, but he might have to hunt with a bow to keep it sustainable.
Who knows, maybe, but when you look at some of the mortality and find unregulated hunting accounts for up to 80% and that it's all unreported, and non-selective there is certainly a bigger picture problem. One area where every cow moose collared ended up shot.

besides unless you can get him a permit to shoot from the truck I doubt he will buy into it. "king of the road" lol

[J_T]

I'm well aware resident hunter harvests account for but a small percentage of total deaths of our prey species. Work with who we can, with what we have.

i'm sure he's got a sun roof. A crossbow turret could be mounted.

[Husky7mm]

So they have a 3 pts season and antlerless hunting and they still have elk. Crazyness!
If that is what you call it.....
-archey 3 point + A25-s16 general S17-N30
-archey cow A25-O31 leh of every tom , dick, & FD N1-J20
This is for all crown land, not just the farmland sometimes 100 ks plus away. Seeing elk on crown land is a rarity, sercuring permission on private land is very difficult due to the few ruining it for many. The majority of bulls taken are little 1.5-2.5 yr olds coming into the calls in the first few days of the rut. The intense pressure hoards of hunters put on the small scattered herds put them into nocturnal mode for months. Those that shoot a 5 pointer think that actually got a big bull. A 300 bull is a monster! The liberal season brings more every year who all believe they will get an elk too, and then they get desperate and poach , or trespass. Until recently access on crown was abounding. None regulated harvest, poaching and year round hunting are prevelant.
The liberal season catiers to the the recent alberta culture " take what you can while you can"
The elk numbers are surpressed , they are "managed" for maximum yield and minimum conflict. The quality of the hunt and the entire experience suffers. Does this sound like good time too you ?

For those that care about a quality sustainable hunt year after year , and strong game populations, fight for it or you will end up with the same.

[The Hermit]

Hey FD - you bought a camera drone yet? ;-) Just poking fun at you brother.

I love it that everyone is concerned and willing to speak their minds on this topic, its important and having read all these posts there is one thing I think EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US AGREES ON... THE NEED TO ENHANCE HABITAT. If you can't offer the time, hopefully you can support those organizations that can and do... BCWF, UBBC, WSSBC, BCTA, GOABC, and your local F&G clubs! Get involved!

[Walksalot]

Habitat also includes places to seek refuge. The places to hide are just as important as good grazing. Looking at the logging plans in 8-09 and the plans to keep standing timber for the animals is hide is sad to say the least. There is an elk corridor for the elk in the Howard Lake area but they would need directional signs to stay with in it's boundaries.

[boxhitch]

Habitat also includes places to seek refuge. Agreed , and that includes refuge in the middle of a cut-block , for a multiple of species. And I think it only going to get worse with new pellet plants being built that will use up debris. I hate the doom and gloom about the future of logging in BC but I fear more the future of wild things.

[LBM]

Hahaha, for you I would recommend the akamina kishenina. Pile of country, next to no hunters and some whopper elk.

Road closure starts september 10th.

Have fun.
Havent had a lot of time to do research but a quick google search shows most trails coming in from pincher, didn't notice the 25km of road closure you mentioned or maybe that wasn't a closure you were taking about. Will research more. Yes I no road closures start on the 10th but others don't seem to care about it and still drive in.

[GoatGuy]

If that is what you call it.....
-archey 3 point + A25-s16 general S17-N30
-archey cow A25-O31 leh of every tom , dick, & FD N1-J20
This is for all crown land, not just the farmland sometimes 100 ks plus away. Seeing elk on crown land is a rarity, sercuring permission on private land is very difficult due to the few ruining it for many. The majority of bulls taken are little 1.5-2.5 yr olds coming into the calls in the first few days of the rut. The intense pressure hoards of hunters put on the small scattered herds put them into nocturnal mode for months. Those that shoot a 5 pointer think that actually got a big bull. A 300 bull is a monster! The liberal season brings more every year who all believe they will get an elk too, and then they get desperate and poach , or trespass. Until recently access on crown was abounding. None regulated harvest, poaching and year round hunting are prevelant.
The liberal season catiers to the the recent alberta culture " take what you can while you can"
The elk numbers are surpressed , they are "managed" for maximum yield and minimum conflict. The quality of the hunt and the entire experience suffers. Does this sound like good time too you ?

For those that care about a quality sustainable hunt year after year , and strong game populations, fight for it or you will end up with the same.

Hahaha, I have a buddy in GP who has killed 3 B&C bulls there, so a 300 bull isn't a monster. Rode the horses all over 'public land' in that country that has lots of elk in it.

Sounds like a classic Husky story.

If only they had a 6 pts season over there everything would be sooooo much better.

[GoatGuy]

Havent had a lot of time to do research but a quick google search shows most trails coming in from pincher, didn't notice the 25km of road closure you mentioned or maybe that wasn't a closure you were taking about. Will research more. Yes I no road closures start on the 10th but others don't seem to care about it and still drive in.

The outfitter there kills the biggest bulls in the EK....................... by far.

Some of the closures start the 1st some the 10th.

[Husky7mm]

Hahaha, I have a buddy in GP who has killed 3 B&C bulls there, so a 300 bull isn't a monster. Rode the horses all over 'public land' in that country that has lots of elk in it.

Sounds like a classic Husky story.

If only they had a 6 pts season over there everything would be sooooo much better.

Yes, probably in the 6 point unit to the west , Bahahaha !!!! A few always slip through to the next season.
How current is this info cause up till fairly recently there WERE lots of elk and few hunters but it has done a 180 thanks to attractive seasons and the net?

[BCrams]

I'm not really an elk hunter although I like getting out for them. The Kootenay road closure stuff is intriguing. I spent 5 minutes deciding if I were to hunt a road closure for elk, I would just go way back with a bike and pack cart rigged up to it to the back end of West Alexander or the longest road closures in the Wigwam / Flathead. No expectations, just have a look at the map and go.

[Walking Buffalo]

Hahaha, I have a buddy in GP who has killed 3 B&C bulls there, so a 300 bull isn't a monster. Rode the horses all over 'public land' in that country that has lots of elk in it.

Sounds like a classic Husky story.

If only they had a 6 pts season over there everything would be sooooo much better.

Did his bulls come from a three point area?

The three point rule for Alberta is used in areas where management goals are to limit the herd size,
Used in conjunction with general archer cow and draw rifle cow licenses.

In the vast majority of three point areas a four year old bull is an anomoly excepting a few areas with large pri ate ranches.


How bad is the bull age structure component in our three point areas? The Alberta bowhunters association is
lobbying for rifle season to be put on a six point rule (archery to stay at three points) based on their claim that
rifle hunters kill all the legal bulls every year and no animals are reaching maturity.


With your work in wildlife management and a proponent of the sheep full curl/ 8 year old rule, I fi d it perplexing that you seem to be suggesting that having an elk herd without mature bulls is an acceptable
social structure.

[Fisher-Dude]

How bad is the bull age structure component in our three point areas? The Alberta bowhunters association is
lobbying for rifle season to be put on a six point rule (archery to stay at three points) based on their claim that
rifle hunters kill all the legal bulls every year and no animals are reaching maturity.


3 point bull elk are sexually mature. Sounds like someone wants the bush (and animals) to themselves.

[Ourea]

3 point bull elk are sexually mature. Sounds like someone wants the bush (and animals) to themselves.

There is endless data from all key elk states in the US that contradict your "long as there is sperm it doesn't matter the age for breeding" jargon. Why would almost all states agree to the same doctrine that the age of the bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the herd.

The data from these reports suggests that when older bulls do the breeding (as it should be in nature)

*pregnancy rates increase
*the rut is more synchronous and shorter
*less stress on both bulls and cows

It is a common understanding that to enhance herd productivity it is recommended that the season be designed so that older bulls are retained in the population.

This is not a hunters opinion, it's science.
If pretty much all US states accept and try and manage accordingly, one would think it is for very good reasons, based good science. They have far more resources than we have up here so I trust that they are not all wrong.

This is considered by the mangers of wildlife to be the gold standard for healthy elk herds.
Younger bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the population.
Don't argue with me....take it up with the bio's in all key elk states and tell them they are doing it wrong.

[Argali]

While most of the U.S. states with GOS elk rifle seasons do not have a 6 point rule, they generally have the rifle season well after the rut - like from Oct. 25 to Nov. 30. Hunting during the rut is archery only. Archery disturbs the elk rut to some degree, but much less than rifle hunting, particularly in open areas with heavy hunting pressure.

After the rut, it really doesn't matter which age class of bulls are harvested as long as a sufficient percentage survive for the next year.

The U.S. system is probably more effective as the rut proceeds more normally, and the bull harvest after the rut can be maximized across all age classes. The down side is not having the experience of rifle hunting during the rut and tough hunting after the rut. However, the archery during the rut is excellent!

[Fisher-Dude]

Someone better back up Oreo's statements with a good reason why we'd restrict hunters to shooting only the "mature" 6 point breeding bulls if having those bulls do all the breeding is "best for the herd."

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes. Maybe we should be targeting 3 pt or less post rut??

[Husky7mm]

I'm not really an elk hunter although I like getting out for them. The Kootenay road closure stuff is intriguing. I spent 5 minutes deciding if I were to hunt a road closure for elk, I would just go way back with a bike and pack cart rigged up to it to the back end of West Alexander or the longest road closures in the Wigwam / Flathead. No expectations, just have a look at the map and go.
If you want to hunt elk the hard way you can earn one the hard way. If want to hunt elk easy that you can get them that way too. In good elk country there are nice bulls 5 mins from town , living under everyone's nose like a smart whitetail. He sits and listens to all the trucks driving by everyday. He only moves with calculation. It's cat and mouse game. When war isn't waged against the entire herd the elk are also much more predictable and huntable.

[GoatGuy]

If there's some peer reviewed litt I would love to see it. Not sales sheets from game managers.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Someone better back up Oreo's statements with a good reason why we'd restrict hunters to shooting only the "mature" 6 point breeding bulls if having those bulls do all the breeding is "best for the herd."

I don't have any sources or reports or anything, but does this make sense?

If we allow all bulls to reach 6 point age you are guaranteed that many of them will breed before they are killed and you are pretty much guaranteed many will make it until the next year and beyond to do the same. Not just purely due to numbers but also because I believe those mature bulls are harder to kill than the 3 pointers. If you start targeting them a couple years earlier you obviously lessen the chance of them getting to that 6 point age. Of course right off the bat there will be more mature bulls that keep breeding and getting bigger due to the harvest of younger bulls, which is great, but once they start to die off is there enough young ones that made it to the 6 point age if the harvest it too great?

No expert. Just speculating. Don't jump on me for throwing this out there.

[Rhyno]

I don't have any sources or reports or anything, but does this make sense?

If we allow all bulls to reach 6 point age you are guaranteed that many of them will breed before they are killed and you are pretty much guaranteed many will make it until the next year and beyond to do the same. Not just purely due to numbers but also because I believe those mature bulls are harder to kill than the 3 pointers. If you start targeting them a couple years earlier you obviously lessen the chance of them getting to that 6 point age. Of course right off the bat there will be more mature bulls that keep breeding and getting bigger due to the harvest of younger bulls, which is great, but once they start to die off is there enough young ones that made it to the 6 point age if the harvest it too great?

No expert. Just speculating. Don't jump on me for throwing this out there.

Haven't read all the posts, but going to add my 2 cents on this one. I am by no means an expert!

But before I moved to Cranbrook I hunted the peace, cows open and 3 point or better. In 3 years the only cows we shot or even had an opportunity on were during winter draws. Of the bulls we shot most were 6 a few were 5's, no 3 or 4 points, we weren't holding out, just shooting the first legal elk.

Don't know why, less pressure? Better management??

[boxhitch]

Lots of out-of-province hunters are jealous of B.C. liberal rifle season , especially so close or during the prime rut . 3 or 6 point , we maybe should look at what is best to sustain the rifle hunt in that period .


The data from these reports suggests that when older bulls do the breeding (as it should be in nature)

*pregnancy rates increase
*the rut is more synchronous and shorter
*less stress on both bulls and cows

That would be good read. Not sure how anyone could quantify whether the rut goes smoother with fewer or more large bulls. there would still be lots of fighting and chasing no matter. Also suggesting somehow the younger bulls somehow miss the mark ?

[boxhitch]

But before I moved to Cranbrook I hunted the peace, cows open and 3 point or better. In 3 years the only cows we shot or even had an opportunity on were during winter draws. Of the bulls we shot most were 6 a few were 5's, no 3 or 4 points, we weren't holding out, just shooting the first legal elk.Hard to compare with the 7-20 ag zone hunt. Have seen a couple of farms that get regular 15-20 elk year after year and the one 6 gets taken regularly , so after that its smaller bulls. That herd number is also lower that last couple of years , only 10-15 regulars.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Also suggesting somehow the younger bulls somehow miss the mark ?

I would imagine like most mammal species the ladies are much more receptive to mature males. Plus a little experience can't hurt :)

Assuming that's true, with more mature males you will have a lot more successful breeding early in the rut before they herd up and things get really competitive. I've seen the big boys mounting the cows in the middle of August so there can be a decent amount of successful breeding before the season even begins.

[GoatGuy]

That would be good read. Not sure how anyone could quantify whether the rut goes smoother with fewer or more large bulls. there would still be lots of fighting and chasing no matter. Also suggesting somehow the younger bulls somehow miss the mark ?
This has been done for elk and mule deer. No statistical relationship between age, sex ratio, timing, etc. I am curious to see if this study has been repeated as has been inferred above.

sheep and moose required minimum age and therefore sex ratios to ensure a synchronized rut, drop and minimize male mortality.

goat a totally different species all in itself.

there has always been work done on captive white-tails. It was a bit more clumsy, but got done during first estrus so you won't see a big effect on the drop, therefore the population.

Having said that always keen to see new, peer reviewed research.

[j270wsm]

Someone better back up Oreo's statements with a good reason why we'd restrict hunters to shooting only the "mature" 6 point breeding bulls if having those bulls do all the breeding is "best for the herd."


Exactly how old is a mature 6pt? So what's the difference between a 1.5-2.5yr old 3-5pt or a 2.5yr old 6pt? Between myself and a few friends we have hunted/taken enough 6pt bulls over the last 10yrs to know bulls can be 270" 6pts and only be 2.5yrs old.

[HarryToolips]

I don't have any sources or reports or anything, but does this make sense?

If we allow all bulls to reach 6 point age you are guaranteed that many of them will breed before they are killed and you are pretty much guaranteed many will make it until the next year and beyond to do the same. Not just purely due to numbers but also because I believe those mature bulls are harder to kill than the 3 pointers. If you start targeting them a couple years earlier you obviously lessen the chance of them getting to that 6 point age. Of course right off the bat there will be more mature bulls that keep breeding and getting bigger due to the harvest of younger bulls, which is great, but once they start to die off is there enough young ones that made it to the 6 point age if the harvest it too great?

No expert. Just speculating. Don't jump on me for throwing this out there.

Exactly what I was thinkin..

[HarryToolips]

There is endless data from all key elk states in the US that contradict your "long as there is sperm it doesn't matter the age for breeding" jargon. Why would almost all states agree to the same doctrine that the age of the bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the herd.

The data from these reports suggests that when older bulls do the breeding (as it should be in nature)

*pregnancy rates increase
*the rut is more synchronous and shorter
*less stress on both bulls and cows

It is a common understanding that to enhance herd productivity it is recommended that the season be designed so that older bulls are retained in the population.

This is not a hunters opinion, it's science.
If pretty much all US states accept and try and manage accordingly, one would think it is for very good reasons, based good science. They have far more resources than we have up here so I trust that they are not all wrong.

This is considered by the mangers of wildlife to be the gold standard for healthy elk herds.
Younger bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the population.
Don't argue with me....take it up with the bio's in all key elk states and tell them they are doing it wrong.

I am nowhere close to an expert, but, one would also think that it would be better for mature AND younger bulls to be doing the breeding, rather than just a few older mature bulls in the herd.. more bulls breeding = more genetic biodiversity which is what any given population needs no??

[Walking Buffalo]

3 point bull elk are sexually mature. Sounds like someone wants the bush (and animals) to themselves.

Mature like a 16 year old kid.

Any links to back up this dumbass comment?

[.300WSMImpact!]

I dont exactly like it but here in region 8 where every year most of the 6 point elk get killed each year, some pockets all the 6 points get killed, I dont see a shortage of calves in the spring, seems all the cows still get bread, its nice to see 6 plus year old bulls but in region 8 that doesnt happen and there is still a fair amount of elk killed each year, sustainable yes I would say. All that being said I would rather see the season the way it is then go to LEH

[Husky7mm]

Hahaha, I have a buddy in GP who has killed 3 B&C bulls there, so a 300 bull isn't a monster. Rode the horses all over 'public land' in that country that has lots of elk in it.

Sounds like a classic Husky story.

If only they had a 6 pts season over there everything would be sooooo much better.

I can't believe you would make up a STORY like that to try and prove a point ;)

[OutWest]

I dont exactly like it but here in region 8 where every year most of the 6 point elk get killed each year, some pockets all the 6 points get killed, I dont see a shortage of calves in the spring, seems all the cows still get bread, its nice to see 6 plus year old bulls but in region 8 that doesnt happen and there is still a fair amount of elk killed each year, sustainable yes I would say. All that being said I would rather see the season the way it is then go to LEH

Just curious where you are getting these statistics from? Factual or just coffee shop gibberish? Have numerous 6 points on our cams year after year that survive the season, have posted a number of them on here.

[J_T]

I run about 6 - 7 cameras in the area we hunt (from May to October) and the number and type/age of bulls we see on the cam is very different from the ones we see through binoculars during the hunt. Many many distinguishing antler features which we never see out in the open during daylight hours.

Lets not be fooled by what we see during the hunt. I would highly doubt all the six pts in reg 8 are taken by seasons end. But I do believe we should think through opening up hunting opportunity and increased opportunity on the same age class.

[HarryToolips]

If our elk pops are stable and increasing like they say in reg 8, then obviously the 6 point season is going along smoothly..I agree with many then that we should increase hunter opportunity. Therefore, why don't they try running the 6 point season a little longer, say til Oct 31st would that work?? Or, would making a GOS season for 6 point or greater bulls + say 3 point only would that work, or would opening up a 3 point only along with the 6 point or greater result in too many 4 and 5 pointers being mistakenly shot?

[.300WSMImpact!]

Just curious where you are getting these statistics from? Factual or just coffee shop gibberish? Have numerous 6 points on our cams year after year that survive the season, have posted a number of them on here.

Factual from my cams, have many legal Bulls on my cams, every year I see most if not all dead either on Hbc or in person,

[Ourea]

Lots of out-of-province hunters are jealous of B.C. liberal rifle season , especially so close or during the prime rut . 3 or 6 point , we maybe should look at what is best to sustain the rifle hunt in that period .



That would be good read. Not sure how anyone could quantify whether the rut goes smoother with fewer or more large bulls. there would still be lots of fighting and chasing no matter. Also suggesting somehow the younger bulls somehow miss the mark ?

Endless data on the mature bull component.
I wouldn't bring attention to it otherwise.
I will post numerous links at some point given time.
Surprised that this data is being refuted by some.