Evidence of sex/species when boning out deer?

[Pangaea]

This will be my first season as a hunter and I'm coming to it a bit later (early 50's) in life. I've spent four weekends this summer target shooting and scouting (3x in 8-6/7; last weekend in 8-15, where I think I'll end up). My work schedule means that the only week long stretch I'll have will be around the Sept. 10 opener - pretty warm... I'm thinking that the gutless method or boning out and then into a cooler of ice will be the best way for a quick cool-down.

My question is: What the best way to preserve evidence of sex/species when you are doing this?

I know... joke forthcoming.:wink:

[Steeleco]

You can still leave a patch of hide on each of the 4 main pieces and a testicle on each of the hind ends should you do the gutless. They can be removed once you get home and won't affect the meat in any way.

I suppose for de-boneing you'd have to do similar?

[howa1500]

I thought you only needed to retain antlers OR testicles and tail

When doing gutless keep a testicle attached to the one hind quarter and voila

[HarryToolips]

I thought you only needed to retain antlers OR testicles and tail

When doing gutless keep a testicle attached to the one hind quarter and voila

You got it...thats what it says in the regs...Pangaea, one of the best things you can do is read the hunting regs thoroughly, you will learn alot of good stuff, plus you have to know the regs by law anyway:-D

[quadrakid]

There has been many threads on this subject.Just so you folks know,having the severed head of an antlered animal is not proof of sex.It must be naturally attatched to said critter.Testicles attatched to a quarter is proof as well.

[Peter Pepper]

There has been many threads on this subject.Just so you folks know,having the severed head of an antlered animal is not proof of sex.It must be naturally attatched to said critter.Testicles attatched to a quarter is proof as well.

Huh, that not how I read it. I thought it makes no mention of the head being severed or not. Going to have to re-read it next time I'm on the can.
I like to completely skin the quarters, and stick the meat in game bags.
If I'm not keeping the skull, (Usually too far to pack it, plus I haven't got better than a two point!) then I keep the balls (or girl parts or does) and tail and a patch of fur attached to one quarter. I hope this method is legal, any one else want to chime in?

[r106]

If you transport the animal whole then leaving the head attached is good enough. If you quarter leave a patch of hair on each quarter ( I believe in the regs there is a minimum size for the patch of hair required ) and testicle or tit attached to rear quarters, no antlers needed unless animal was harvested during a season with point restrictions. In which antlers must be transported with animal.

At least that's what I do

[hunter1947]

You can still leave a patch of hide on each of the 4 main pieces and a testicle on each of the hind ends should you do the gutless. They can be removed once you get home and won't affect the meat in any way.

I suppose for de-boneing you'd have to do similar?

X2 I agree this is true well said..

[howa1500]

I don't intend to argue but to be clear. Refer to page 20 of the regs.

The head does NOT need to be attached.

The line is naturally attached to the carcass OR one part of the carcass....

For deer its "the PORTION of the head that bears the antlers OR testicle or penis and tail, or a readily identifiable piece of the hide not less than 6cm square.

Those who disagree, check the regs. Nothing wrong leaving a patch of hide on each quarter but it's also unnecessary.

[Brambles]

Huh, that not how I read it. I thought it makes no mention of the head being severed or not. Going to have to re-read it next time I'm on the can.
I like to completely skin the quarters, and stick the meat in game bags.
If I'm not keeping the skull, (Usually too far to pack it, plus I haven't got better than a two point!) then I keep the balls (or girl parts or does) and tail and a patch of fur attached to one quarter. I hope this method is legal, any one else want to chime in?

A head cut off and 4 quarters cleaned of all hair and sex organs is not a legal method for transporting your animal to butcher or place of residence. Regardless if the antlers are going home with you or not!

if you sever the head you must make sure that a 1" square min patch of hair and sex organs are retained on at least one quarter

[steel_ram]

Take lots of pictures of your intact dead animal. It might save your butt. We got some guff for taking an elk out in too many piece's. I guess there's too many instances of people mix and matching animal parts to try to certail the law.

[Pangaea]

Thanks, everyone for the answers! Much as I had understood. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I had missed. And thanks steel-ram for the photo tip - though if I am successful, the chance of less than about 50 pix will be negligible...

[tayleoscar]

Can you transfer de boned meat with just the antlers accompanying the meat?

[Steeleco]

Until you get home the meat must have patches of hair still attached. There was a similar thread just yesterday. Have a look for it, you may find you answer there too.

Found it: http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?109392-Evidence-of-sex-species-when-boning-out-deer

[tayleoscar]

Thanks steeleco

[Phoneguy]

Cut and Paste from page 20 of the synopsis .... must leave ......ONE PART of the carcass:

Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached
to the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR
(ii) both a testicle or part of the penis,
AND the animal’s tail or another
readily identifiable part of the hide
not less than 6 cm2.
(b) If the animal is female, either
(i) that portion of the head which in
males normally bears antlers, OR
(ii) both a portion of the udder or teats,
AND the animal’s tail or another
readily identifiable part of the hide
not less than 6 cm.

[Mishka]

People are not understanding the "or" and the "and". If there is no head then you need to have evidence of sex and a patch of fur. If you are transporting the head, severed or not, then you do NOT need an additional patch of fur or additional evidence of sex.

[Steeleco]

Another CAN of WORMS!!

Sorry Mishka, but I beg to differ.

Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached
to the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed

I read this to say the head CANNOT be severed. It wouldn't take much to have one guy shoot a doe and borrow the head of his buddies buck to show male sex. All the while the buddy leaves the testicles attached also proving male sex?

[Mishka]

Can you transfer de boned meat with just the antlers accompanying the meat?

The antlers must be attached to the head, not cut off at the base. But otherwise, yes.

[Steeleco]

My son shot a nice 3 point 2 years ago in the youth season. She had a 3 point rack. The consensus in camp was to leave it whole. We never did get checked, but it's just not worth taking the chance IMHO

[howa1500]

Re: Steeleco,

Dude I totally respect you! But must disagree with you bolding and highlighting...

"must leave naturally attached
to the carcass OR one part of the carcass"

That is how you are allowed to quarter an animal in the field, and it not be illegal.

Otherwise you would have to transport every animal whole, there would be a lot less moose and elk being shot in the province if that were the case.

[Mishka]

But what about the other line, ​or one part of the carcass...

If someone is inclined to try and get away with something illegal, like your example. They will try no matter what.

[Mishka]

Of course, someone can do whatever they feel comfortable with as long as it meets those minimum requirements. There's nothing wrong with being extra careful.

[Steeleco]

Re: Steeleco,

Dude I totally respect you! But must disagree with you bolding and highlighting...

"must leave naturally attached
to the carcass OR one part of the carcass"

That is how you are allowed to quarter an animal in the field, and it not be illegal.

Otherwise you would have to transport every animal whole, there would be a lot less moose and elk being shot in the province if that were the case.

Sorry my aim was to show how you need the head attached if no other means of sexing the animal is left attached.


The writing on pg 20 In my view gives me a choice to leave the head intact OR sex organs and hair attached.

Once again the English language and our ability to read it the way it was written leave much to be desired!

[Steeleco]

But what about the other line, ​or one part of the carcass...

If someone is inclined to try and get away with something illegal, like your example. They will try no matter what.


Agreed with the cheating bit, cheaters will always find a way around the rules, or at least try!

[bighornbob]

Another grey area is "carcass". No where does it specify or give a definition of the word "carcass". The dictionary describes carcass as the body of a dead animal. To me the head is part of the carcass, just like the lower legs are part of the carcass and the entrails are also part of the carcass, as are the hind quaters. All parts of the carcass. So if the skull plate, bearing anters, is still naturally attached to the head, by their definition this is legal. So a detached head with antlers should be enough by their definition as its in the wildlife act.

BHB

[1/2 slam]

The antlers must be attached to the head, not cut off at the base. But otherwise, yes.


Absolutely NOT. Have a read of the thread that Steelco brought up and read the regulations. Antlers are not proof of sex. They can be removed. As Steelco said hair must remain attached and testicles on each hind quarter. Easy to do.

[sawmill]

And still no jokes?You guys are disappointing me.
Evidence of sex is getting your buddy to take a picture of you pleasuring your deer.

[fyffer]

hair on one hind quarter with testicles attached not both to my knowlege

[ducktoller]

The regs clearly state that antlers attached OR genitals attached as proof of sex.

If this is wrong pls let me know

[Mishka]

Agreed with the cheating bit, cheaters will always find a way around the rules, or at least try!


Unfortunately, very true.

[quadrakid]

If you have your moose hanging in quarters in camp with the head severed then you better have some testicular matter still attatched to quarters. That is only if you don,t want to have a pile of shit dumped in your lap when you are a long way from home.Its fine to debate it on the net,not so much fun debating with a CO when you are on safari. They should make it simpler to understand in the regs.

[Mishka]

Another grey area is "carcass". No where does it specify or give a definition of the word "carcass". The dictionary describes carcass as the body of a dead animal. To me the head is part of the carcass, just like the lower legs are part of the carcass and the entrails are also part of the carcass, as are the hind quaters. All parts of the carcass. So if the skull plate, bearing anters, is still naturally attached to the head, by their definition this is legal. So a detached head with antlers should be enough by their definition as its in the wildlife act.

BHB

That's pretty much the way I understand it. You cannot cut the antlers off at the base (no skull plate) and call that evidence of sex. That's why the regs says the portion bearing antlers, or for a doe where the antlers would normally be. The rest of the argument about having the antlers and the sex organs and patches of fur doesn't make sense as I've never seen that written anywhere.

[Mishka]

Absolutely NOT. Have a read of the thread that Steelco brought up and read the regulations. Antlers are not proof of sex. They can be removed. As Steelco said hair must remain attached and testicles on each hind quarter. Easy to do.

Yes, read the regulations and the other thread. It doesn't need to get complicated.

[Downwind]

Re: Steeleco,

Dude I totally respect you! But must disagree with you bolding and highlighting...

"must leave naturally attached
to the carcass OR one part of the carcass"

That is how you are allowed to quarter an animal in the field, and it not be illegal.

Otherwise you would have to transport every animal whole, there would be a lot less moose and elk being shot in the province if that were the case.

So as long as the head with antlers is still ATTACHED to part of the carcass (ie the body) then that is deemed proof of sex, yes. Once you remove the head from the carcass it is no longer proof of sex. Part of the carcass would be the front half or quarter with the head still attached to be used as proof of sex

[Gateholio]

We received a warning a few years ago from the CO's about this.

We were under the impression that the "antlers or genitals" meant that if you had the antlers with your boned out meat, you were good to go. Not so, according to the CO's

Almost all of our deer are packed out in pieces, so he explained what he wanted to see, which was:

Genitals and some hide attached to one hind quarter. Antlers and head-if severed form the remainder of the carcass- are not proof enough of sex.

This topic has been debated many times here, and some have argued that if you didn't leave the genitals on but had the antlers, that this was enough proof to satisfy the "antlers OR genital aspect of the regulation. I tend to agree that if you went to court and fought it, you would probably win ans the regulation is a bit ambiguous, however, you are only adding a few ounces to your pack and it will make the CO's happy so I don't see any problem with doing it. I'd much rather have a positive CO experience than debate with them on the finer points of law, when I just want to get my deer into the freezer. I also don't want to go to court to fight the ticket and fight to retrieve my meat and antlers.

[Downwind]

Another grey area is "carcass". No where does it specify or give a definition of the word "carcass". The dictionary describes carcass as the body of a dead animal. To me the head is part of the carcass, just like the lower legs are part of the carcass and the entrails are also part of the carcass, as are the hind quaters. All parts of the carcass. So if the skull plate, bearing anters, is still naturally attached to the head, by their definition this is legal. So a detached head with antlers should be enough by their definition as its in the wildlife act.

BHB

Body, torso, carcass...all the same thing. Head is not part of the carcass. If they had to put a definition in the book for every single thing the synopsis would be as big as big as War an Peace. The definition of carcass is what it is not what it is to you. Remove the head and you must have proof of sex attached on at least on of the four quarters. Prove to a CO that your buddy didn't just give you antlers to a bull he shot and you just lopped off the head of a cow you shot and said it was a bull? That's why it has to be attached to the carcass.

[Mishka]

Thanks for adding that, Gatehouse. It's very unfortunate that what a CO is looking for is not clearly spelled out in the regs. I agree it's not a big deal to keep the genitals attached, in fact I do that anyway. (no extra patches of fur though). But following the regs to the letter would potentially land me a ticket. Of course I would fight it and expect to win, but that's wasted time and effort.

[dana]

i have seen this debate so many times on this site. I have talked to several CO's that have all agreed, the skull plate with hide and antlers attached can indeed be your evidence of sex and species. They told me you do not need both nuts and antlers. One or the other. In antler restriction seasons, the antlers are the only evidence of sex needed.

[Gateholio]

i have seen this debate so many times on this site. I have talked to several CO's that have all agreed, the skull plate with hide and antlers attached can indeed be your evidence of sex and species. They told me you do not need both nuts and antlers. One or the other. In antler restriction seasons, the antlers are the only evidence of sex needed.

I agree with you, but not all CO's will.

After the warning we got, we changed our methods. Although my natural instincts are somewhat offended :) I decided to conform to what the CO's said they wanted to see, as it is such minimal effort involved to leave the genitals on, and avoid conflict. I'd rather see CO's take a few minutes and see everything is in order and get out doing real work than debating regulation with them by my pickup! :)

[Gateholio]

Thanks for adding that, Gatehouse. It's very unfortunate that what a CO is looking for is not clearly spelled out in the regs. I agree it's not a big deal to keep the genitals attached, in fact I do that anyway. (no extra patches of fur though). But following the regs to the letter would potentially land me a ticket. Of course I would fight it and expect to win, but that's wasted time and effort.

That's how I feel about it. I may be *correct* but for the minimal effort of leaving genitals on (and that should satisfy the retention of hide/hair rule too) why bother fighting, when you are dealing with a hard won set of antlers and a perishable product that you don't want flopping around in the back of a CO pickup all day and possibly never see again in good condition, even if you do win your day in court.

[smoothbor]

that may be so with the CO you spoke with but trust me packing an deer,elk,or whatever out of the bush with just antlers and skull plate will catch you a little poop in the east koots I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE I helped a guy out 3years ago and he was a new hunter on his own. Not with me but I did help him pack out an elk he shot as he was by himself and was camped close to us. when we came back into camp with the last 2 bags we were visited by the CO. The young fella had not left any hair, or genitals on the quarters and just had the antlers. He was issued a fine right on the spot and it was explained to him in black and white.I was not with him for the processing of the animal I just hiked up with him and brought down one quarter in a bag. As said before its not hard to leave hair or genitals attached and the weight is very minimal compared to a negative outcome. the individual I helped was very new it was his first elk and only second big game animal, he was upset about his fine and told me that he was just doing what his uncles and cousins told him to do. In the end some bad info cost him money, he was embarrassed and was upset that this would show on his record more than anything.

[dana]

I agree with you, but not all CO's will.

After the warning we got, we changed our methods. Although my natural instincts are somewhat offended :) I decided to conform to what the CO's said they wanted to see, as it is such minimal effort involved to leave the genitals on, and avoid conflict. I'd rather see CO's take a few minutes and see everything is in order and get out doing real work than debating regulation with them by my pickup! :)

i would rather debate with them and educate them on the law so they don't hand out unjustified tickets to newbies who were indeed following the law. If the CO still issued a ticket, I would just say "see you in court!" I am confident in the regs and I am sure a judge would agree with me. For added ammo, I might call on other CO's to give their perspective on it too.

[Gateholio]

That would be my natural instincts too, but my concern would be losing my deer until court, with no guarantee of a return.

I wonder if on one of the other threads someone contacted Stephen McIvor? An email from him would give a definitive answer.

[huntcoop]

That would be my natural instincts too, but my concern would be losing my deer until court, with no guarantee of a return.

I wonder if on one of the other threads someone contacted Stephen McIvor? An email from him would give a definitive answer.


I think Philcott had asked and received a reply from Stephen McIvor.

[Philcott]

Huntcoop,

I was going to stay quiet but since you brought it up here is the reply I got from Steve.


Hello Phil,




Thank you for your email dated January 23, 2013 addressed to Fish and Wildlife general enquiries and your email dated January 15, 2013 addressed to the honourable Steve Thomson, Minister of Forests, Lands, and Natural Resource Operations, regarding evidence of sex and species for harvested wildlife. Minister Thomson has requested that I respond on his behalf.





Below are the regulations regarding evidence of sex and species (note that these can be found in the Hunting Regulations (B.C. Reg 190/84) of the Wildlife Act):





Division 5 — Possession of Carcass


Possession of carcass


15 (1) In subsection (2), "deer" means mule (black-tailed) deer, white-tailed deer and fallow deer.


(2) For the purpose of section 36 of the Act, a person who possesses the whole carcass or part of a carcass of an elk, moose or deer must leave naturally attached to the carcass or one part of the carcass in the person's possession


(a) if the animal was male, either


(i) that portion of the head that bears the antlers, or


(ii) both


(A) a testicle or part of the penis, and


(B) the animal's tail or another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm2, and


(b) if the animal was female, either


(i) that portion of the head that in males normally bears antlers, or


(ii) both


(A) a portion of the udder or teats, and


(B) the animal's tail or another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm2.


(3) For the purpose of section 36 of the Act, a person who possesses the whole carcass or part of a carcass of a caribou must leave naturally attached to the carcass or one part of the carcass in the person's possession


(a) if the animal was male,


(i) a testicle or part of the penis, and


(ii) the animal's tail, another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm² or that portion of the head that bears the antlers, and


(b) if the animal was female,


(i) a portion of the udder or teats, and


(ii) the animal's tail, another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm2 or that portion of the head that normally bears the antlers.





There is no definition of “carcass” in the provincial Wildlife Act. In cases where things are not specifically defined in legislation definitions that are commonly found in dictionaries are used. Dictionary definitions of “carcass” vary; some include the head and hooves, some do not. The Conservation Officer Service does not consider a detached head as “part of a carcass”; hunters that retain that portion of the head that bears the antlers attached to a detached head do not meet the requirement for evidence of sex and species. If a hunter is using that portion of the head that bears the antlers as evidence of sex and species, it must be left naturally attached to a portion of the carcass other than a detached head (i.e. a front quarter).





A definition for “carcass” in the Wildlife Act, in my opinion, would be a beneficial addition to the legislation, help clarify the regulation to hunters and will be considered by the Fish, Wildlife, and Habitat Management Branch in the future.





Note: When there is an antler restricted season (spike-fork moose, 4 point Mule deer, 6 point elk, etc) on wildlife the hunter must keep the antlers of the wildlife, and the species licence under which the animal was killed, together and available for inspection by an officer. Additionally, when an animal is subject to compulsory inspection regulations (Mountain Sheep, Mountain Goat, elk in some areas, etc) there are additional requirements for submitting the antlers/horns to a qualified inspector.





Regards,

[MichelD]

A member here several years ago reported that he was on a hike in alpine hunt, brought out the de-boned meat and the antlers but no testes and was stopped by a C.O. and fined for no evidence of sex of animal left on the meat.

C.O. told him it was possible a hunter could pack in a 4-point rack from last year and shoot a doe.

[huntcoop]

...I was going to stay quiet but since you brought it up here is the reply I got from Steve.

Sorry :smile:

[Philcott]

Sorry :smile:

Not to worry.

[smoothbor]

Philcot thanks for the post I think it presents itself clearly and answers a lot of questions here. There really should be no ifs and or buts, it's very clear cut and dry.SB

[quadrakid]

Its very clear but it is not clear in the regs,they should explain it better in the regs.

[crazybushcreature]

Ok what I do is gut the animal in the bush. Then bring home to skin and wash. Do I still have to leave head/proof of sex when transporting it from home to the butcher than? I like to have it completly clean for the butcher.. Kinda hard when u got fur attached.

[Downwind]

Ok what I do is gut the animal in the bush. Then bring home to skin and wash. Do I still have to leave head/proof of sex when transporting it from home to the butcher than? I like to have it completly clean for the butcher.. Kinda hard when u got fur attached.

Skin out the nuts and leave attached for the butcher, easy

[Fisher-Dude]

Ok what I do is gut the animal in the bush. Then bring home to skin and wash. Do I still have to leave head/proof of sex when transporting it from home to the butcher than? I like to have it completly clean for the butcher.. Kinda hard when u got fur attached.

You need a nut or dink and a patch of fur to go to the butcher, and you need the antlers if there is an antler restriction. Teats and hair if you have a doe/cow.

I just leave a 6 cm square patch of hair on the knee of a front quarter, and skin out and leave a couple of inches of dink on the hind, or a teat. It's clean and easy for the butcher to remove for the cooler when you drop it off.

Steve MacIvor's email spells out the law, folks. Just do what he has explained and enjoy your hunt. The "I'll fight it in court" is the last thing a keyboard jockey wants to be doing in "real life."

[Survival Bill]

So you cant now process a deer 98% and leave a pound or two of meat with hid and proof of sex + tail?
I process my own at my retreat no way am I going to process deer at home...
only way I see things happening for me is to get CO to come over first before I process deer only how long till they get their sorry ass to my place first a day a week will they even bother?

[Fisher-Dude]

So you cant now process a deer 98% and leave a pound or two of meat with hid and proof of sex + tail?
I process my own at my retreat no way am I going to process deer at home...
only way I see things happening for me is to get CO to come over first before I process deer only how long till they get their sorry ass to my place first a day a week will they even bother?


You could always take it to the CO or MoE office nearest your retreat to get an inspection receipt, then fly at 'er. I'm not to keen on your idea of taking scarce CO time and budget to have them drive to you. I'd rather they be out catching poachers. Doubtful they will come out at your request at any rate, just to make things convenient for you.

[Steeleco]

It's my belief that once cut and wrapped its no longer open to inspection. No different that getting your game getting processed by a pro way up north then transporting it home frozen in coolers back to the LML as an example.

[dana]

You need a nut or dink and a patch of fur to go to the butcher, and you need the antlers if there is an antler restriction. Teats and hair if you have a doe/cow.

I just leave a 6 cm square patch of hair on the knee of a front quarter, and skin out and leave a couple of inches of dink on the hind, or a teat. It's clean and easy for the butcher to remove for the cooler when you drop it off.

Steve MacIvor's email spells out the law, folks. Just do what he has explained and enjoy your hunt. The "I'll fight it in court" is the last thing a keyboard jockey wants to be doing in "real life."

FD, in an age of trying to increase hunter recruitment and keep the old timers still in the game, I would think unneccessary fines by the CO service is counter productive. When the regs and wildlife act state one thing and yet some in the CO service harass law abing hunters who are just following the regs provided to them, I see a major problem, don't you? Reading countless stories over the years on the internet of guys who received warnings or tickets for this issue is not helping your hunter recruitment strategy. Maybe The BCWF should pursue this and get the regs changed with a proper definition of a carcus to start with??? Some email from some dude in the CO service posted on an internet hunting site is in no way a good way to figure out what is legal and what is not. I have had CO's tell me a completely different story to that email. A head is just fine. Do you think the rationale of What Ifs is a good way to determine a fine or not. "that 4 point rack could have been from last year" Are you freakin kidding. If a CO can't determine a rack on a freash skull plate from one shot a year ago that CO should not be in the Service. With the amount of hunters that backpack and the amount of hunters that travel far distances with their game, I am sure they do not want to be forced to bring animals out whole all based on the idea of what ifs.

[Jelvis]

Leave the head with antlers attached to the body
If you cut the body into quarters you need hair patch on each one.
Once you take antlers off you need a testicle on the carcass.
It's for security.
Two guys shooting together get one deer each
One guy has an antlerless tag
One has a buck tag
Figure it out if you were a CO at a game check.?
Guy pulls in with a deer in the back of the truck in pieces.
Not hard to figure out why you need antlers attached or a testicle.
Not all shooters do everything legal or see it as wrong in their eyes.
They make up what they think is right instead only keep it a secret.
Little wee lies and justification as to why it ain't really bad or wrong, "everyone does it", Is used as an excuse.

[f350ps]

i have seen this debate so many times on this site. I have talked to several CO's that have all agreed, the skull plate with hide and antlers attached can indeed be your evidence of sex and species. They told me you do not need both nuts and antlers. One or the other. In antler restriction seasons, the antlers are the only evidence of sex needed.
Is that skull plate with hide and antlers still naturally attached to the carcass? K

[Ambush]

This subject only gets confusing when people start adding in their " ...well to me it means...." when actually it is quite plain if you read it all.

The head attached to the body OR the evidence of sex left on ONE quarter. That satisfies the gender issue.

The tail attached to one quarter or a patch of identifiable fur attached to ONE portion of the carcass. That will satisfy the species requirement.

You can have other scenarios. Such as leaving the un-skinned head of a buck or doe attached to the whole, completely skinned carcass. The CO can identify sex and species in both cases. Or if boning out, leave a hair patch on one quarter. Lower down the leg is the easiest to leave and it sticks good. Cut under the penis and leave it with the same quarter.

I personally leave the tail and penis attached to one quarter. Wrap a baggy around the tail to keep hair off the meat.

Could a person still cheat? Sure, but cheaters are cheaters and no amount of rules will prevent that.

If you have fulfilled the requirements and a CO still has a problem, then it's time to talk to his superior or time to challenge it in court. I believe most CO's are competent and easy to reason with. For the "otherwise" few, they should be challenged and educated. A few of the new ones seem to have come out of training with the attitude that all hunters are just poachers that they haven't caught yet. Know your regs and don't be baffled or bullied into go beyond the lawful requirements.

[Mishka]

They definitely need to clarify the regs. If they want the head, with antlers, attached to the torso or portion of the torso, then they need to specify that. I did a quick search for a definition of carcass and it indeed includes the head. A dead animal is a carcass. The only time it may not included the head is when a carcass is used to reference a dead animal at the butcher that does not have the head attached. But if the animal at the butcher has the head attached, it is still referred to as a carcass.

I don't believe they can define carcass as a dead animal, but not the head. Just doesn't make sense. They need to change it to torso or something like that to make it clear. And in the meantime, stop giving out fines for people following the rules as stated.

[Ambush]

And in the meantime, stop giving out fines for people following the rules as stated.

I agree, but it is important that you know the rules and defend yourself if the CO is wrong. Remember they are not the judge. They can give you a ticket, but only a judge can compel you to pay it if you disagree. Claim your rights.

[Fisher-Dude]

Anyone have any question what this means?



Possession of carcass
36 (1) A person who possesses the carcass of any wildlife, whether or not the carcass has been divided, without leaving attached the parts required by regulation to be left attached, commits an offence.



Probably not, and it's context can't be any clearer. Now relate that to the requirements in the regs, and there should be no question what the carcass is.

[Peter Pepper]

Sooooo what about bear? No sex needed right?

[dana]

Is that skull plate with hide and antlers still naturally attached to the carcass? K

Yes, because the skull plate IS part of the carcus. the antlers must be attached to part of the carcus, ie skull plate. Cut them off like sheds at the pedicle, then you must leave a nut attached to another part of the carcus. Simple. To hear that guys have received warning and fines when having the entire head in their possession detached from the rest of the deboned meat is simply wrong and counter productive to the hunter retention and recruitment strategy. The head is just as much part of the carcus as the quarters.

[dana]

Anyone have any question what this means?





Probably not, and it's context can't be any clearer. Now relate that to the requirements in the regs, and there should be no question what the carcass is.

ie antlers or nuts. In point restriction seasons, antlers need to be naturally attached to part of the carcus. It can't be any clearer Pat, and yet you, who bangs the drum against restrictive regs, have created much more interpretation than is required. You, of all people, should be lobbying for the CO service to get their heads out of their asses on this one. If they do indeed want the head attached to the bulk of the carcus, then that is too restrictive for both backpack hunters and long distance hunters who are worried about meat spoilage. This needs to be fought to protect our rights and encourage more use of the backcountry. Pat, time to pony up for the hunters of this province and fight this thing.

[f350ps]

Yes, because the skull plate IS part of the carcus. the antlers must be attached to part of the carcus, ie skull plate. Cut them off like sheds at the pedicle, then you must leave a nut attached to another part of the carcus. Simple. To hear that guys have received warning and fines when having the entire head in their possession detached from the rest of the deboned meat is simply wrong and counter productive to the hunter retention and recruitment strategy. The head is just as much part of the carcus as the quarters.
I agree with you, as long as you've left a nut attached you're good to go! K

[dana]

As long as you leave the antlers naturally attached to part of the carcus you are good to go!

[Ambush]

In antler restricted areas, you need only have the antlers with you, no requirement to have them attached to anything but the skull cap. For two point moose, we always just capped them and left the ugly heavy head. Same for four point bucks. In that case though you are still required to leave evidence of sex and species attached to ONE quarter.

And yes cheaters have and will use one set of antlers to transport a different animal. But thieves are thieves and we can't cripple ourselves on a useless attempt to stop them.

[Midland]

Wow. Amazing thread. Just make it easy on yourselves, if you sever the head, just save a nut. However if you're to weak to haul out the extra couple ounces, then don't come back on here complaining when you get a ticket.

I feel the regs are clear as long as you read all of it, not just a couple key lines. If in any doubt, cover all your basis!

[CNE]

I agree with Dana. Always did it that way, all the guides I worked with did the same too. Never a problem. The head is part of the carcass. What the heck would it be if it weren't?? We aren't talking quarters here. Anyone that's ever actually had to pack an animal out further than a few miles from the truck is going to bone that thing out! You think I'm gonna pack a mulie, ram or a boo for 1-3 days with the hide attached to quarters? Give your head a shake! That thing is cut into pieces and stuffed into my pack along with all my other gear. The hide ain't staying on either! It's caped out long before I hike out.

[Fisher-Dude]

ie antlers or nuts. In point restriction seasons, antlers need to be naturally attached to part of the carcus. It can't be any clearer Pat, and yet you, who bangs the drum against restrictive regs, have created much more interpretation than is required. You, of all people, should be lobbying for the CO service to get their heads out of their asses on this one. If they do indeed want the head attached to the bulk of the carcus, then that is too restrictive for both backpack hunters and long distance hunters who are worried about meat spoilage. This needs to be fought to protect our rights and encourage more use of the backcountry. Pat, time to pony up for the hunters of this province and fight this thing.

I have better things to do for conservation programs than fight a clear regulation. You should talk to GG and the wildlife cte on these issues, I'm busy with other ctes these days! ;)

If you can't pack a 2 oz nut and a half ounce of hair, it's time you became a road hunter so you can chuck that sucker into the back of the Lada whole! :D

[dana]

If the antlers need to be attached to the carcus (which doesn't include the head according to some in the CO service) then how do you come to the conclusion that hunters can hack the antlers off during point restriction seasons and are good to go with a nut on a quarter???? So we are told we need the nuts because you could just pack in antlers from last year, can't that same argument be giving in point restriction seasons. Shoot a illegal bull moose no problem. Throw the antlers away but pack in the spike/fork antlers from last year. You will be safe because you just need to leave a nut attached to the quarter right???? In point restriction seasons the antlers need to be naturally attached to the carcus. If you are saying the head isn't the carcus, then yes, all backpack hunters and hunters who travel long distances will indeed have huge issues. I guess it would be better that we rip up a sensitive wetland with quads to get a spike/fork or tripalm out in huge pieces because we wouldn't want to break any rules about the antlers being attached to the carcus right??? don't just cherry pick the laws you like. This isn't just an evidence of sex issue, it is also is to identify a legal animal as a legal animal. So what is it, agree with some in the Co service that don't believe the head is part of the carcus and push hunters into further restrictions elimating hunting further than a few hundred metres from a road or disagree and call the entire dead animal the carcus and hunters can hunt the way they want too. I know where the courts would fall. If the CO service want to push this issue then sportsmen will need to push back or else we will loose yet more rights.

[Fisher-Dude]

Antlers need only be attached to the skull plate. The antlers attached to the skull plate are not considered part of the carcass, so all you need is a nut and patch of hair on a portion of the carcass.

I think you're over-thinking this. It's really quite simple.

[dana]

Yes it is simple, the skull plate is indeed part of the carcus. And i have talked to COs that agree with this. When I told the one CO about the so called email stating the CO Service do no call the head part of the carcus, he said, what email? He had never seen it and told me not to listen to anything I see on internet hunting sites. hahaha

[Fisher-Dude]

Hahaha, maybe you should email Steve MacIver, the guy who writes the regs and interprets them for Crown Council, and ask him. Two Steves should be able to agree on something. ;)

[f350ps]

Yes it is simple, the skull plate is indeed part of the carcus. And i have talked to COs that agree with this. When I told the one CO about the so called email stating the CO Service do no call the head part of the carcus, he said, what email? He had never seen it and told me not to listen to anything I see on internet hunting sites. hahaha
If you shouldn't be listening to anything on internet hunting sites then I'd take their advice! Go about your business the way you think it should be and everybody's happy, CO's included! K

[Cookie1965]

I just picked up a new copy of the regs and see a notice to hunters that clearly (to me at least) says that in a season based on antler or horn size the antlers or horns must accompany the carcass to residence etc etc. Accompany to me means with but not naturally attached. If a CO thought I'd carried in an old set of antlers with me I guess he could DNA test.

[howa1500]

How much work does it take for the ministry to add a couple lines of text to aid in clarification. I feel that would the simplest thing for them to do. If they want a head attached to a quarter to prove that it was part of animal, then clearly state that. Not an ambiguous statement in the regs. Clearly worded rules and regs are always easier to enforce. I feel that should I be ticketed I could get off in court, however I will pack a but just in case, and my 4 point rack from last year...............

[jamfarm]

The problem is, is that after you get your ticket after your successful hunt (say up Telegraph Road past Dease Lake!) and you choose to dispute that ticket, chances are you'll be disputing it in Provincial Court in Smithers or maybe PG, not the court near to you. For that reason, it makes it easy to leave a nut attached. Or spend 2 days driving, a day in court and $750 in gas to dispute that ticket.

[Fisher-Dude]

The other side of it is, the same people who bitch about cutbacks are the ones who want to pull our COs into the office and courtroom for a court case instead of having them protecting our valuable fish and wildlife resources that we all depend on.

Grow up and follow the $%&#in' rules! It's not that difficult to leave a nut and a 1" patch of hair on a quarter!

[Mikey Rafiki]

Yes it is simple, the skull plate is indeed part of the carcus. And i have talked to COs that agree with this. When I told the one CO about the so called email stating the CO Service do no call the head part of the carcus, he said, what email? He had never seen it and told me not to listen to anything I see on internet hunting sites. hahaha

Well then I wouldn't trust the CO's you are talking to. Maybe get them to send you an email so you have backup for the potential court date :)

We almost had a spike moose taken from us last year when we forgot to keep a nut on the hind quarter but still had the whole entire head with us, hide and all, not just the skull plate. All quarters still had hide on them. The only reason we got to keep it was because we had assisted the CO in an earlier poaching incident we reported.

You would think they could issue a memo internally so they would all get on the same damn page.

[dana]

Hahaha. Pat, who bitches all the time about lack of opportunity for resident hunters hmmm???? The law is clear but the CO who sent out an email did a shit poor job on explaining it and resident hunters are getting fines for actually following the law. He admits in the email that carcus needs a definition in the regs but have they done it? Nope! Just hand out tickets to legal hunters who don't have the balls to stand up for their rights. The new round of regs just came out and yet they did nothing to clarify the issue that has been ongoing on this site for freaking years. That is piss poor management don't you think ? I do!!! I don't bitch about COs but the guy that sent out this email dropped the ball big time. If you think an email posted on some Internet forum will hold up in court you are dillussional. The regs clearly state antlers or balls. If they wanted just balls, why didn't they state that in the first place. If you think I am wrong, show me in law where I am wrong. You can't because they don't have a definition for carcus. The CO's I talked to are some of the best this province have. Are you saying they are idiots just like me?

[ellenbill]

I agree with Fisher Dude. Get over it you guys! Do what I have done for the last 60 years. Leave a nut and sack on each hind quarter or portion thereof if you debone. This provides evidence of sex an species.Udders if female. All this talk about skull plates means nothing and just confuses novice hunters. If the head and antlers are still attached to the whole body (carcass) then you are also good to go. Let's close this thread now and get on with more important things like setting up our own roadblocks right beside the FN ones to get the attention we need.

[Fisher-Dude]

Hahaha. Pat, who bitches all the time about lack of opportunity for resident hunters hmmm???? The law is clear but the CO who sent out an email did a shit poor job on explaining it and resident hunters are getting fines for actually following the law. He admits in the email that carcus needs a definition in the regs but have they done it? Nope! Just hand out tickets to legal hunters who don't have the balls to stand up for their rights. The new round of regs just came out and yet they did nothing to clarify the issue that has been ongoing on this site for freaking years. That is piss poor management don't you think ? I do!!! I don't bitch about COs but the guy that sent out this email dropped the ball big time. If you think an email posted on some Internet forum will hold up in court you are dillussional. The regs clearly state antlers or balls. If they wanted just balls, why didn't they state that in the first place. If you think I am wrong, show me in law where I am wrong. You can't because they don't have a definition for carcus. The CO's I talked to are some of the best this province have. Are you saying they are idiots just like me?


Steve, you told me you wanted to get involved in the process. Here's your chance. Get the definition in the regs. Easy to do - write the proposal and get it implemented. Imagine what you'll be doing for the future of backcountry hunting in this province if you do!

Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it. Remember what John Holdstock told us - The world is run by those who show up.

[Gateholio]

Can debate this forever- or at least until carcass is defined- but the safe bet is to leave some genitals attached, imho

[6 K]

Here is another wrench for the works, you tag a big bull and want a live mount or want to sell a live mount hide. How do you leave a 6cm square on the deboned pieces?
I had this issue cleared up by the ministry a few years ago, BEFORE I went on the trip. So long as the hides were with the meat during transport and evidence of sex attached to one part of each animal. Everyone was happy.

[Pangaea]

Just want to say thanks to all for your replies. I got the answer I needed within a few posts, but subsequent posters fleshed out/developed the issue way beyond what I had realized. Love this site!