Criminalize the use of dog e-collars???

[Foxton Gundogs]

Just read this pile of garbage on another forum. Time for a letter/phone call blitz. Is this really what we elect our representatives to do. The man has probably never seen an E collar let alone looked into the proper use of one.



Contact information
http://kennedystewart.ndp.ca/more-contact

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...12/page-1.html (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...12/page-1.html)



Mr. Kennedy Stewart (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-615, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals—electric shock collars).

He said: Mr. Speaker, I am proud to rise today to introduce a private member's bill promoting animal welfare in Canada. This bill would ban the use of harmful electric shock collars on companion animals, better known as “household pets”. Using shock collars is widely recognized as causing needless pain and being cruel and inhumane, and use has been restricted in numerous other jurisdictions.
I am particularly honoured to be putting this bill forward, because it is a truly constituent-driven initiative. It is inspired by Gwendy and Alfie Williams, two committed advocates from my riding of Burnaby—Douglas, who have been mobilizing concerned citizens to protect animals for more than seven years. Without a doubt, never before has my office received so many petitions and letters on a single specific issue. However, really what swung me to action is a local elementary school. Students from this school joined the chorus of voices seeking a ban on the use of these harmful shock collars.
I believe this is how our democracy should function. MPs should come here to Ottawa and put forward ideas on behalf of their community that elects them. When this happens, we are doing our duty to serve Canadians.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There's a reason why we don't let children in this country vote. This guy lives in a fantasy world

[adriaticum]

NDP need something to do.

[Stresd]

I'm sure that my Pups, Sport Collar could be sized to fit a NDP member. Who here wants the controller.:mrgreen:

[nedarb2]

I'm sure that my Pups, Sport Collar could be sized to fit a NDP member. Who here wants the controller.:mrgreen:

the nick button must be sticking, sorry :mrgreen:

[Big Lew]

Criminalize the use of dog e-collars??? Just read this pile of garbage on another forum. Time for a letter/phone call blitz. Is this really what we elect our representatives to do. The man has probably never seen an E collar let alone looked into the proper use of one.
Totally agree with you! I have one and used it when first training my exuberant, previously untrained and undisciplined lab with great results. I first tried it out on myself, going from the lowest setting and on up to #8 out of 12. It is only intended to disrupt the dog's train of thought, or to gain it's attention....not to hurt or punish the dog. I got good results without having to turn it up very high, so I can't understand why anyone would suggest that a properly used unit would be cruel, hurtful, or tramatic to a dog. My dog gets very excited if I even pick the unit up because he knows we're going out to have some fun. In my opinion, Mr. K Stewart is either an emotionalist, or hasn't used, observed one properly used, or investigated via interviewing professional dog trainers using them. I have select words not allowed on this site that would more accurately describe him.http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/disgust.pnghttp://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Really%20Mad.gifhttp://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Don%27t%20Go%20There.gif

[JLsteel]

As per usual, the NDP continue to comment on issues they do not fully understand

[limit time]

Next it will be choke chains. ( vote NDP)

[Foxton Gundogs]

Any one wishing to voice their objection to this FACTLESS, EMOTION DRIVEN Bill that has the potential of far reaching effects on the dog and hunting community can do so by Emailing Robert Sopuck MP at, robert.sopuck@parl.gc.ca (robert.sopuck@parl.gc.ca) he is the MP heading up the fight against this bill, it only takes a few minutes of your time

[adriaticum]

Just heard from a Tisol worker that their dropped all choke, prong collars and e-collars from their inventory because some people complained.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Lots of support coming in the 3 major players in the E collar industry are working together and on board, just heard from Dogtra bringing me up to date on their position.

[dellis]

I'd like to table a bill requiring sitting MP's and MLA's to wear e-collars to work. And we can all put our names in a lottery for control of the buttons for a day.
Darcy

[adriaticum]

I'd like to table a bill requiring sitting MP's and MLA's to wear e-collars to work. And we can all put our names in a lottery for control of the buttons for a day.
Darcy

Best idea in a long time.

[Kasomor]

Just put in a phone call to my local MP's office. Of course it is closed but I left a message. I shall await their call :-)

[Iron Glove]

Emailing our MP about this.
The difficult part of this is that while most here would agree that an E Collar is an effective tool it has to be used, not misused. Having seen a Professional dog trainer have a Lab doing the funky chicken I can understand the negative optics of E Collars.
Personally, we don't use them on our dogs, matter of choice. We do however use "beep" collars with a citronella spray option and have found them to be quite effective in reducing reactive incidents. Every dog trainer, vet, consultant we have ever used has said that an E Collar, used correctly is an effective and humane tool however almost all of them strongly suggested getting a trainer experienced in their use to take us through the routine first. One trainer said she would not provide training on E Collars because quite simply she didn't have the experience. She did train us on the "beep" collars which were also highly recommended by a trainer / consultant who is a recognized dog behaviour expert.
Too bad that the sale of E Collars don't require a brain test, might eliminate the very small number of users who are idiots.
We were at a Receiver Specialty a few years back ( it was an easy way for our old girl to get two "Q's" and Firsts in two agility runs ) and one dog owner had his dogs kenneled and when they got excited he booted the kennel pretty hard to shut them up. His dogs were highly trained hunting dogs. At what point does the end justify the means ?

[325]

I used a citronella collar. It worked well with my dog. I don't think shock collars should be banned, but they should not be used to replace early socialization and rigorous obedience training, which unfortunately, is often the case.

[Foxton Gundogs]

I used a citronella collar. It worked well with my dog. I don't think shock collars should be banned, but they should not be used to replace early socialization and rigorous obedience training, which unfortunately, is often the case.

Actually it's not "often the case". E collars (I hate the term shock collar, as do most that are familiar with their proper use)are used 100s if not 1000s of times a day properly by competent trainers all over North America. It's like the Psycho who snaps and guns down a bunch of people at the mall, that's what you hear about not the 1000s of law abiding gun owners using their firearms in a responsible manner every day. As I have said before its not the tool it's the hand that wields it, and unfortunately with E collars as with firearms its those idiot we hear about.

[Montana]

I don't use an e-collar....not because I think they are inhuman, but because I'm afraid I'd do something wrong and screw a dog up and the old fashioned way has worked for me....just takes longer. Having said that, if you read any of the old training books you'll find that many of the old trainers used slingshots and would even pepper a dog with birdshot if it misbehaved and was out of their reach... How many dogs lost eyes or where totally ruined because of these methods? My problem with e-collars is that inexperienced people who have never trained a dog think they are the magic tool... If someone cannot train a dog without an e-collar, they really should think twice before using one. An e-collar in the hands of someone who doesn't know exactly what they're is a disaster waiting to happen......

[albravo2]

Should ban sticks too. They can be hell on dogs if the user is intent on doing something stupid. Just like an e-collar.

I don't use ours anymore, mostly because on our skinny hound it had to be so tight to stay put that I always felt I was choking her.

[Big Lew]

I'm assuming you don't mean anything derogatory toward those that are dog trainers, or are familiar on how to use an e-collar correctly and humanely. I'm very familiar with how most professional dog trainers used to train dogs well before the e-collar or citronella collars were available. I also had very good results with training dogs for trials and hunting during that time. I won't go into detail on how many champions were trained, but the use of these relatively new tools, properly used, most often gets excellent results more quickly and with less trauma to the dog, but it also depends on what type of program the dog is being trained for. As an example, if you're training a dog in a closed or controlled area for something like agility, using treats works extremely well without collars, but out in an open area, and if the dog is totally wound up to retrieve, treats or only commands etc don't always work so an e-collar will usually help in getting the dog's attention back to task. When I first started training my dog for trials, I watched the pros for awhile, and their usual method was a long cord which they would use to yank the dog off it's feet if they yelled out a command and the dog ignored them. Some used more inhumane methods like pellet guns. I have used treats 90% of the time, supplementing with an e-collar, while training my current extraordinarily rambunctious and hyper lab to retrieve and obey a host of other commands. His progress is astounding, especially considering his total lack of training or discipline when we took him over about 15 months ago at one year old.

[Montana]

E-collars are like guns, as someone has already mentioned.... They are simply a tool and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they are a very effective, humane tool for training a dog....in the hands of an idiot, they are no better than someone peppering a dog with birdshot.....

We get bombarded with hunters from all over the U.S. and Canada here when our pheasant season opens.... I'd conservatively estimate that 75% of the dogs I see people working are wearing an e-collar. When they leave their pickup putting an e-collar on their dog is almost as automatic as grabbing their shotgun and shells. Of course they use the e-collar pretty much entirely to keep their dog close...... When the dog reaches out too far, they get zapped and it's not always a nick...

Every year here they have what they call a "Legends Hunt".... Ex-NFL players come here for the opening weekend. They pay an entry fee and teams are formed for the weekend...it's a fundraiser for the football program at MSU-Northern. A few years back I was invited to join them (they wanted me because I had dogs)... 6 man teams. What a fiasco... I hunted with them for a couple of hours and then came up with some phoney reason to leave... How someone didn't get shot is beyond me... Every dog other than mine had e-collars on.... guys were screaming at their dogs, dogs were getting zapped left and right, dogs were running off and getting lost, etc.... Is that the norm with e-collars? I dont know.... I'm guessing it's far too common than people realize... There are serious hunters who use the e-collar properly and have very well trained dogs, but for every one of those I'm guessing there are a dozen who probably shouldn't even have a dog.......they are the ones who are the problem...

Hunters are required to go through a hunter safety class before they can buy a license...... Maybe dog owners should be required to go through a class on the proper use of an e-collar before they are allowed to purchase one.....

[Iron Glove]

Big Lew, probably the best, well balanced post here.
The comment about treat training for agility is dead on. As you know, you can't use any type of collar in an agility run, it's all close quarters, intense training and yup, treat, treat, treat. Wife was at a trial and some newbie was standing at the fence with a treat bag and using a squeaky toy. Our dog starts the run, bee line to the treats and squeaky and a quick DQ. Wife flips out, protests to the Judges and she was allowed another run at the end of the trial, getting another "Q".
As some have said, it's the trainer, not the tool.

[Foxton Gundogs]

I don't use an e-collar....not because I think they are inhuman, but because I'm afraid I'd do something wrong and screw a dog up and the old fashioned way has worked for me....just takes longer. Having said that, if you read any of the old training books you'll find that many of the old trainers used slingshots and would even pepper a dog with birdshot if it misbehaved and was out of their reach... How many dogs lost eyes or where totally ruined because of these methods? My problem with e-collars is that inexperienced people who have never trained a dog think they are the magic tool... If someone cannot train a dog without an e-collar, they really should think twice before using one. An e-collar in the hands of someone who doesn't know exactly what they're is a disaster waiting to happen......

Two very interesting statements. The first I give two big thumbs to you Tim. We are talking about a man(Montana) with a great deal of experience as a breeder and trainer here. I wish more of the wanabe trainers who I think in some cases get their E collar the same day they get their 8 week old puppy because that's what the "pros" use would take a chapter from his book. To those I say learn to train first then LEARN to train a dog AND use an E collar before you actually use one.
I learned to train from my Gramps before E collars were in use. He taught me to run a dog down and give it a good shaking if it wouldn't listen because you cant call a dog to you then punish it when it obeyed your last command. I resisted the E collar for many years until I started to train with a fellow that actually knew the art of the collar. He taught me and I began to use it on my retrievers first. As I got older and ended up with a very bad ankle I started collar conditioning my Spaniels because there was no way I could run them down. I can truthfully say I could not be training ad hard as I do without E collars.
Thanks for your input Montana, even tho you personally choose not to use one You have provided a great back up for what I have been saying all along about it being the handler not the collar.

[325]

Actually it's not "often the case". E collars (I hate the term shock collar, as do most that are familiar with their proper use)are used 100s if not 1000s of times a day properly by competent trainers all over North America. It's like the Psycho who snaps and guns down a bunch of people at the mall, that's what you hear about not the 1000s of law abiding gun owners using their firearms in a responsible manner every day. As I have said before its not the tool it's the hand that wields it, and unfortunately with E collars as with firearms its those idiot we hear about.

There are also many trainers who do not use them, nor do they recommend them. Amongst trainers who know what they are doing, I'm sure E-collars are a valuable tool, and should be available to them. But many people who resort to E-collars (not trainers, but dog owners), are trying to solve issues that could have been mitigated with proper training and socialization.

[Big Lew]

There are also many trainers who do not use them, nor do they recommend them. Amongst trainers who know what they are doing, I'm sure E-collars are a valuable tool, and should be available to them. But many people who resort to E-collars (not trainers, but dog owners), are trying to solve issues that could have been mitigated with proper training and socialization.

I agree with you, but there are some situations that an e-collar can address (properly used) more efficiently than standard methods. My dog, as an example, wasn't socialized during the most important first year of his life. He eagerly and quickly progressed through his training, including ignoring other people and dogs while he was retrieving, even weaving through or waiting for an open path to his destination. He still would get too excited though when meeting other people and dogs otherwise, to the point he focused all his attention toward them, not his trainer. By using the e-collar set only enough to get his attention, he has made good progress. He loves to chase coons and coyotes out of our yard. I haven't used the collar for quite some time, and don't need to. Now, even if he is in hot pursuit, one 'No' command will immediately stop him, and then a 'get in' command will have him sitting by my side even if he is still wound up tight. I still use and carry treats for rewarding him, especially under these circumstances. The problem with treats though as a solitary training tool is that some dogs get too wound up and excited and will ignore or refuse any tidbit.

[Foxton Gundogs]

There are also many trainers who do not use them, nor do they recommend them. Amongst trainers who know what they are doing, I'm sure E-collars are a valuable tool, and should be available to them. But many people who resort to E-collars (not trainers, but dog owners), are trying to solve issues that could have been mitigated with proper training and socialization.
I agree, all my pups are socialized from the time they are 4 weeks old, And yes as Montana said(and I have great respect for his knowledge and opinion) not all trainers use them, but my point was its the idiots that give the tool a bad name when itshould be the idiots getting the flack someone who abuses a dog will do it if now with an E collar then with a belt, stick or a boot.

[325]

I agree, all my pups are socialized from the time they are 4 weeks old, And yes as Montana said(and I have great respect for his knowledge and opinion) not all trainers use them, but my point was its the idiots that give the tool a bad name when itshould be the idiots getting the flack someone who abuses a dog will do it if now with an E collar then with a belt, stick or a boot.

Yes, very true. It's unfortunate that trainers may lose a valuable tool because of a few highly visible idiots.

[Montana]

Thanks, Jim.....you're giving me far more credit than I deserve... My dogs are a bunch of renegades.. ;) I used an e-collar on a dog that started chasing deer years ago.... I still have it around here somewhere (the collar, not the dog!).. I've thought about giving one a try because like you, I'm getting too old to chase down a pup and haul it back when it disobeys... I think I know enough now to not screw up a pup... I think the primary reason most people use a collar for upland hunting is to keep a dog in close, be it a spaniel or a point dog, or at least that's what I see when I'm out hunting.

About 35 years ago I had to live in town when I was going to college... Had a Setter then that would bark when I left. The neighbors complained, so I bought a "bark collar". They were relatively new back then. Talk about learn fast.... I put the collar on the dog on the lowest setting and it took about two times and he knew exactly what was going to happen. After that, I didn't even need to turn the collar on but I hated using it because he was absolutely petrified of it.. It got to the point where if he barked all I had to do was open the back door and show him the collar and he'd go in his doghouse and not make a peep for hours... Looking back, I didn't condition him to the collar like I should have.... He needed to associate the barking with the shock, not that it was the collar giving him the shock.... I was young and dumb.

[yamadirt 426]

I love my ecollar. I will continue to use it even if there is a ban and i dont think that will happen anyway. I mostly use the audible sound in the field as its very quiet and it depends on what we are hunting. Its a common sense thing for me. Since i keep an intact male my only quirk with him is fighting the urge of nature at the dog park with the ladies, and its usually a specific dog not every bitch in the park. Males he does not give a shite about. If he is blatantly ignorning a come back call he gets a nic but usually if i turn my back he starts running. or if he gets out of sight for too long in the bush he will get nicked, 30secs is too long for me. He is my indicator when it comes to game and I need to see his expressions and he knows that. Just another tool in the box for me. Im so sick of the pc crowd. I dont think anyone should have to test to get a dog. I dont think we should have to license dogs either. Way too much bullshit to wade through. I think if an experience person sees something not quite right they should say something and maybe help out if the other persons agrees. If not then f'em.

[eaglesnester]

I guess it is better if your dog runs out of the yard into the path of a car or truck. This POS has to be NDP.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Damn Tim wish we were closer this would be a great discussion over a cold one rather than a thread on the net, BUT lost of good info coming out from a couple of old pharts shooting the chit lol. I have bark collars as well but rather than leave them on but turned which can irritate the neck with the prongs, I take an old web collar screw an appropriate size piece of 2x2. The dogs figure out pretty quick they don't have the collar on but haven't figured out the "dummy" collar YET lol

[fowl language]

ok fellas, what would you recommend I use on foxton gd.. he is a great companion and hunting partner but even at his age he still gets excited when he meets new people. any thoughts as I am worried that he might even start to tinkle a bit....fowl

[Cedar Cowgirl]

ok fellas, what would you recommend I use on foxton gd.. he is a great companion and hunting partner but even at his age he still gets excited when he meets new people. any thoughts as I am worried that he might even start to tinkle a bit....fowl

I also am given to understand on good authority that he becomes almost uncontrollable when ducks start coming into the goose decoys. I recommend a Tri-Tronics Pro 500 set on HIGH.

[fowl language]

oh cedar cowgirl, let us not delve into that can of worms. that is the first time I have ever seen a lay down blind vibrate so bad at the sight of a couple thousand ,that it had to have vibrated about 2 feet out of it,s original starting position. I think perhaps not even a shock collar could help. and I thought the meth lab was a bit whiney, my god......fowl

[Islandeer]

You just can't take the idiot factor out of any ownership thing ...... they are great tools used properly. The trainer needs to be trained on usage first.

[Sasquatch]

For those of you who think it can't happen here......

http://globalnews.ca/news/1437344/new-quebec-law-bans-shock-collars-prongs-on-pets/

[quaint bucket]

i know the ndp fellow from my old place. he's definitely an emotional fellow...

good info from this thread... definitely gave me a better idea on how to train my dogs...

[Foxton Gundogs]

For those of you who think it can't happen here......

http://globalnews.ca/news/1437344/new-quebec-law-bans-shock-collars-prongs-on-pets/

Not to late Email Bob Sopuck he is the MP heading up the fight to stop this stupid bill his Email address has appeared in a number of posts here

[Kayte]

I don't use e-collars, I an a positive reinforcement type person, but I can understand how they could be utilized in certain situations, especially if you have a sport dog working at a distance.

The thing that bothers me, is that there is a local "trainer" (I use the term loosely) who straps e-collars on every dog for every behavioural/training problem. Want to teach your puppy to sit? e-collar. Teach your dog to stay on a mat while you back up six feet? e-collar. He also doesn't give the dog any opportunity to learn what he's asking before correcting it. He doesn't use the collar to "proof" a behaviour, he sets the dog up to fail and then punishes their confusion. I used to walk by the park where he trained, and the screaming flinching dogs were horrible to watch.

THAT is the image that most people think of when they hear e-collar. Not "experienced trainer using a tool correctly", it's more like "some tool who calls himself a trainer".

I'm not a fan of banning things in general (and also not a fan of the NDP ;) ). I do think that people need to learn how to use the tool before purchasing it though. I hate seeing crappy/cheap e-collars for sale at pet stores, because any idiot can walk in, buy one, and ruin their dog. I absolutely agree that it comes down to the person holding the remote, but sometimes we have to remember that there are an awful lot of dumb people out there.

Ban e-collars? no. But educate? hell yes.

[Barracuda]

I strap on the Tritronics and the dogs get excited they think its go time (exercise ,training or hunting), in fact we keep them on the dogs a lot even if we don't use them as they are considered to be under direct care and control according to many bylaws very much like a leash ( depending where you are if you look at the actual bylaw an e collar can be considered direct control same as a leash) . Heck even Cesar Milan uses e-collars and he is the pied piper of the whole touchy feely feel good at one with the unicorn sandal wearing visceral ball pooch parade :lol: