Region 5 mule deer closure

[chris]

So The region 5 mule deer rut closure has been in effect for a while now. Has anyone heard of wether it will ever be lifted or not? I remember something about a 2 year closure but that idea seems to have gone out the window.

[GoatGuy]

Was told it would last only two years - no surprise it has not changed and doubt it will. The counts weren't supported by anyone else in the wildlife branch, because they weren't supported by science, but that is what was used to reduce the season. Oddly enough those counts have not been carried out since due to a lack of funding, but the region has blown its budget on moose counts which also were not conducted within RISC standards so they are useless as well.

Region 5 is a nightmare. No accountability, transparency or science. Welcome to the world of the back door deals.

[Jelvis]

Could something have gone wrong in Williams Lake district with some kind of communication disaster?
PR seems at a low for the hunters from Willy's area. Infighting with the club members and disbanded a bit? Derision with some accusations as well as cool evasive atmosphere hampering progress in team work. People we all need a common goal to work together with (all users of the wild country). And to work together warmly and openly we need good communication skills. This takes learning and applying the things we learned.
The mule deer closure for the late fall needs to be addressed in order to progress into the final wanted outcome. Now that it is in place I don't think it will be changed any time soon and when it does it could be leh mule deer buck of a limited entry to fill that window now closed. Imho,
Jel .. we will see all leh and auctions in ten years from now imho -- just like the States does.

[Brian011]

Still plenty of time to shoot a buck, and it saves a few, the best time in region 5 is the last 10 days in November anyway.

[Fisher-Dude]

So The region 5 mule deer rut closure has been in effect for a while now. Has anyone heard of wether it will ever be lifted or not? I remember something about a 2 year closure but that idea seems to have gone out the window.

I heard it will be lifted the day after Rodger Stewart retires.

[srupp]

Hmm lots of deer and plenty of bucks...some pretty decent size...seems to me the changes have helped if just for the number of bucks

Srupp

[tigrr]

I hope it stays closed during the rut.
Wolf numbers are up.
Coyote numbers are up.
Black bears numbers are holding steady.
Grizzly bear numbers are up.
So having a little less hunting pressure for the survival of the bucks is a good thing. Take out a few black bears and coyotes and see the results. A trail cam was set up in front of a coyote den and the male brought in 22 fawns. Add to that the bears sence of smell to track the fawns (400 times better than human) and you see the population shrinking.
No I'm not a bioligist but talking to the old timers and the 150 animals wintering herds, they don't exist locally anymore!! Just don't want to see the population crash like the east coast fishery.
Just my humble opinion.

[Timbow]

I think the number of deer depends on where in the Cariboo you look. The numbers in the Quesnel north are low while you head 1/2 hour south and the numbers are up.

I would be interested to see the numbers out in the Chilcotin.

The Cariboo, much like other Regions, is such a vast area with many different biogeographic zones that it's hard to apply one solution to fix everything. Having a closure during the peak rut without addressing the predator problem is fruitless.

I still head out a few times during the closure with a whitetail tag in hand and maybe a chance at a wolf. During these hunts I am a full dedicated road hunter. I have only crossed the path with one other hunter and he was looking to fill his LEH doe.

[limit time]

Could something have gone wrong in Williams Lake district with some kind of communication disaster?
PR seems at a low for the hunters from Willy's area. Infighting with the club members and disbanded a bit? Derision with some accusations as well as cool evasive atmosphere hampering progress in team work. People we all need a common goal to work together with (all users of the wild country). And to work together warmly and openly we need good communication skills. This takes learning and applying the things we learned.
The mule deer closure for the late fall needs to be addressed in order to progress into the final wanted outcome. Now that it is in place I don't think it will be changed any time soon and when it does it could be leh mule deer buck of a limited entry to fill that window now closed. Imho,
Jel .. we will see all leh and auctions in ten years from now imho -- just like the States does.
For once jel...I do agree with you, this will happen...

[Fisher-Dude]

I hope it stays closed during the rut.
Wolf numbers are up.
Coyote numbers are up.
Black bears numbers are holding steady.
Grizzly bear numbers are up.
So having a little less hunting pressure for the survival of the bucks is a good thing. Take out a few black bears and coyotes and see the results. A trail cam was set up in front of a coyote den and the male brought in 22 fawns. Add to that the bears sence of smell to track the fawns (400 times better than human) and you see the population shrinking.
No I'm not a bioligist but talking to the old timers and the 150 animals wintering herds, they don't exist locally anymore!! Just don't want to see the population crash like the east coast fishery.
Just my humble opinion.


What effect will limiting buck harvest have on the survival of fawns? You do realize that limiting buck harvest will not increase deer populations. All the does are being bred even with buck to doe ratios as low as 5:100, and ratios in the Cariboo are generally above 20:100. So, what are we accomplishing besides making guide outfitters happy about lower hunter numbers?

[Jelvis]

-- If my aunt had a pair of nads she'd a been my uncle -- we can't change it only those who can use the scientific knowledge and wisdom they attained from colleges and university in biology and other related materials then graduated and sought out employment in Fish & Wild Life in all fields.
They were successful in the job interviews held by experienced staff supervisors for positions of great importance.
Now hired and working with a job they take pride in and do their best to succeed in making tools for sustainable goals in all wild life and lands, these and the thousands that work for BC in a very professional manner. They are the ones who decide what is best for the animals and set the rules and we obey them.
.. The Pro Bio's and Wildlife staff do this according to scientific research and nothing less. Let's respect all the work and effort that they put into reaching goals that will progress in all areas.
The CO's enforce the rules that are written down -- Let the Pro's do their jobs and they will manage very well

[GoatGuy]

-- If my aunt had a pair of nads she'd a been my uncle -- we can't change it only those who can use the scientific knowledge and wisdom they attained from colleges and university in biology and other related materials then graduated and sought out employment in Fish & Wild Life in all fields.
They were successful in the job interviews held by experienced staff supervisors for positions of great importance.
Now hired and working with a job they take pride in and do their best to succeed in making tools for sustainable goals in all wild life and lands, these and the thousands that work for BC in a very professional manner. They are the ones who decide what is best for the animals and set the rules and we obey them.
.. The Pro Bio's and Wildlife staff do this according to scientific research and nothing less. Let's respect all the work and effort that they put into reaching goals that will progress in all areas.
The CO's enforce the rules that are written down -- Let the Pro's do their jobs and they will manage very well

There is no science in Region 5 and the decisions have never been made by a wildlife biologist.

Nobody else in the branch supports what region 5 does or has done.

It's that simple.

[GoatGuy]

I hope it stays closed during the rut.
Wolf numbers are up.
Coyote numbers are up.
Black bears numbers are holding steady.
Grizzly bear numbers are up.
So having a little less hunting pressure for the survival of the bucks is a good thing. Take out a few black bears and coyotes and see the results. A trail cam was set up in front of a coyote den and the male brought in 22 fawns. Add to that the bears sence of smell to track the fawns (400 times better than human) and you see the population shrinking.
No I'm not a bioligist but talking to the old timers and the 150 animals wintering herds, they don't exist locally anymore!! Just don't want to see the population crash like the east coast fishery.
Just my humble opinion.

hey, if you want more deer that's probably consistent with many of the hunters out there. The changes to the season won't make more deer and region 5 has no plans to make more deer. Same thing as has happened with moose and sheep in Region 5.

[chris]

Well my question wasn't so much about wether the population could handle an opening during the rut, it was more directed to wether it would happen or not. I agree that there are lots of opportunities to get a buck during the open season. I don't think that a 10 day closure during the rut can really save that many bucks but I don't have any figures to base it on. I would love to see more deer but think that as a hunter the only way to work towards that is predator hunt. If everyone got out there and took a spring bear then maybe it would let a few more fawns and calves survive. I'm sure there is more to it than that but I'm no biologist and in my simple mind less predators equals more prey.

[GoatGuy]

Well my question wasn't so much about wether the population could handle an opening during the rut, it was more directed to wether it would happen or not. I agree that there are lots of opportunities to get a buck during the open season. I don't think that a 10 day closure during the rut can really save that many bucks but I don't have any figures to base it on. I would love to see more deer but think that as a hunter the only way to work towards that is predator hunt. If everyone got out there and took a spring bear then maybe it would let a few more fawns and calves survive. I'm sure there is more to it than that but I'm no biologist and in my simple mind less predators equals more prey.

Predation is definitely a factor, particularly when habitat is in terrible shape.

The biggest thing we need to start turning our minds to is habitat enhancement. A lot of that country should be burned every 10 years and hasn't been burned in 60.

[srupp]

Hmm the changes have indeed been succesful...more deer bigger bucks more bucks...thats eyes on field observations..closure did work imo
Srupp

[GoatGuy]

Hmm the changes have indeed been succesful...more deer bigger bucks more bucks...thats eyes on field observations..closure did work imo
Srupp

changing the season would have no effect on the numbers of deer.

[dellis]

changing the season would have no effect on the numbers of deer.
A couple guys here keep beating this same drum. Why bother with any restrictions at all then? Open season, year round, no bag limits, no antler restrictions, should work the trick.......we'll be up to our vents in deer, deer everywhere......makes no difference.

Look to the history books and see what unrestricted hunting did to even seemingly inexhaustible populations of wildlife(think passenger pigeon)........didn't turn out so well.
The north American wildlife model works because hunters deliberately choose to restrict harvest via special seasons etc. and thereby leave a percentage of game animals to survive and keep the species from going extinct.
Some of the guys on this site seem to have no conservationist mindset at all.........real hunters need wildlife, and are willing to restrict their kill in order to see that future generations also have the chance to enjoy the hunting lifestyle.
Some of the posters on this site come across as maybe being Anti Hunter's in disguise, attempting to divide us and keep us bickering between ourselves. Or maybe just dedicated, professional trolls.
As hunters we need to keep in mind, the future of hunting will be decided by the majority, non hunting public. If we appear to be disrespectful and wasteful, heedless of resources, what message will that send to the voting majority?

Darcy

[GoatGuy]

A couple guys here keep beating this same drum. Why bother with any restrictions at all then? Open season, year round, no bag limits, no antler restrictions, should work the trick.......we'll be up to our vents in deer, deer everywhere......makes no difference.

Look to the history books and see what unrestricted hunting did to even seemingly inexhaustible populations of wildlife(think passenger pigeon)........didn't turn out so well.
The north American wildlife model works because hunters deliberately choose to restrict harvest via special seasons etc. and thereby leave a percentage of game animals to survive and keep the species from going extinct.
Some of the guys on this site seem to have no conservationist mindset at all.........real hunters need wildlife, and are willing to restrict their kill in order to see that future generations also have the chance to enjoy the hunting lifestyle.
Some of the posters on this site come across as maybe being Anti Hunter's in disguise, attempting to divide us and keep us bickering between ourselves. Or maybe just dedicated, professional trolls.
As hunters we need to keep in mind, the future of hunting will be decided by the majority, non hunting public. If we appear to be disrespectful and wasteful, heedless of resources, what message will that send to the voting majority?

Darcy


Does and fawns control wildlife populations. To 'manage' a mule deer herd, you should be harvesting females - we don't do that to any significant degree in BC other than a few agricultural conflict scenarios. In effect, we don't 'control' or 'manage' mule deer populations. We are simply watching them decline. There have been a pile of hunters who think changing the hunting regulations for bucks will change deer, or that harvesting a handful of does is what's holding a population back - it isn't.

Buck:doe ratios have to be down less than 5:1 to have an impact on the deer population. The MINIMUM sex ratio for mule deer in BC is 20:100, which is much higher than places like Washington state, colorado etc. The decision to reduce the season was not supported by any researchers/scientists/managers as a means to improve the mule deer population. The change was not science-based it was a political decision. There are no managers inside the branch outside of Region 5 who supported the change. You will not find any credible mule deer researchers who will tell you that change in season had any effect on the mule deer population and you will also find the researchers do not actually support those antler restrictions and that they would prefer a non-selective buck harvest over a 4 pt harvest.

To increase mule deer populations you have to manage habitat. Most of BC's mule deer country is in fire maintained ecosystems. Most of those places should burn every 10-40 years. We also have invasive weeds in many parts and range which is in poor shape. We have had fire surpression since the 60s and in many places mule deer populations are down - they will continue to decline. As the populations decline hunters seem to think changing the regulations will solve their 'issues' instead of listening to mule deer researchers and ecologists.

Hunters should be trying to increase and protect the resource - they aren't. Right now they are trying to change the hunting regulations, which will have no positive long-term effects on mule deer populations.

There are places such as montana and idaho who are actively researching and increasing mule deer populations. The researchers from those places don't talk about hunting - they talk about habitat. They don't care whether the buck a hunter shoots has 1 or 13 points - they don't care how many bucks there are so long as it doesn't impact the population. In short, they care about mule deer.

I can see where your argument is coming from as you believe changes to buck only hunting regulations will protect mule deer. Unfortunately they won't. You won't find any mule deer researchers to support your assertions, and they will actually tell you the approach you are taking is incorrect. Appreciate the passion, but would prefer it be directed towards increasing the resource through science instead of going back to hunting regulations.

They've done that in the Cariboo since the 80s and they have fewer moose, sheep, goats then they ever have. At this point changing the hunting regulations might create a few more bucks, but it won't create more mule deer.

[srupp]

hmmm true I don't know your obvious wealth of knowledge..on the WHY..its just been my and many othere area hunters who have personally observed since the 2 week closure during the rut has seemed to result in more deer, more sightings of BIG bucks and a lot more...and again in my opinion more of all types of deer..females and males and trophies...

perhaps we do need doe harvest..Im ok with that...and more habitat burns etc..closing that mule deer 2 week during the rut has helped.

cheers

Srupp

[Blair]

-- If my aunt had a pair of nads she'd a been my uncle --
I hate to tell you this, but your aunt does have a pair of gonads. They are called ovaries.

[GoatGuy]

hmmm true I don't know your obvious wealth of knowledge..on the WHY..its just been my and many othere area hunters who have personally observed since the 2 week closure during the rut has seemed to result in more deer, more sightings of BIG bucks and a lot more...and again in my opinion more of all types of deer..females and males and trophies...

perhaps we do need doe harvest..Im ok with that...and more habitat burns etc..closing that mule deer 2 week during the rut has helped.

cheers

Srupp

Would expect to see more bucks and bigger bucks as the regs cut the buck harvest in half. There are about 15,000 hunters who don't go to region 5 now (about 30,000 less than the early 90s) and instead hunt in Regions 3 and 8. That will of course change if regions 3 and 8 change their regulations due to the increased pressure.

Could be more deer as well, but that's not a function of the buck season, that's just a function of changes in weather and predation.

You've lived through the changes in moose, sheep and goat. Need to turn the focus on making more wildlife, not regulations.

[Dannybuoy]

hmmm true I don't know your obvious wealth of knowledge..on the WHY..its just been my and many othere area hunters who have personally observed since the 2 week closure during the rut has seemed to result in more deer, more sightings of BIG bucks and a lot more...and again in my opinion more of all types of deer..females and males and trophies...

perhaps we do need doe harvest..Im ok with that...and more habitat burns etc..closing that mule deer 2 week during the rut has helped.

cheers

Srupp

I gotta agree with this ... though I am not familiar with region 5 . it is only reasonable that a shorter /restricted buck season (particularly during the rut)would result in more and likely bigger bucks .... this in itself = more deer .

[OutWest]

hmmm true I don't know your obvious wealth of knowledge..on the WHY..its just been my and many othere area hunters who have personally observed since the 2 week closure during the rut has seemed to result in more deer, more sightings of BIG bucks and a lot more...and again in my opinion more of all types of deer..females and males and trophies...

perhaps we do need doe harvest..Im ok with that...and more habitat burns etc..closing that mule deer 2 week during the rut has helped.

cheers

Srupp

Most hunters are biased whether they like to admit it or not. Those same hunters will equate seeing a few more bucks with a healthy mule deer population which is not necessarily the case at all. Does can only get bred once a year. Saving a handful of bucks won't make more deer.

[limit time]

*** it! Close 5 down completely...and let's see what happens.

[Argali]

[QUOTE=GoatGuy;1503337]
Buck:doe ratios have to be down less than 5:1 to have an impact on the deer population. The MINIMUM sex ratio for mule deer in BC is 20:100, which is much higher than places like Washington state, colorado etc.

5:100, I presume?

The lower deer density in B.C. probably necessitates a somewhat higher buck:doe ratio than high deer density areas like Colorado but a 20:100 ratio should more than suffice.

[curt]

the unfortunate reality is once closed getting anything reopened is not an easy task I wouldn't have high hopes to see this season anytime soon and he longer the ministry drags is feet on the wolf problem the more closures will be coming just watch.

[Fisher-Dude]

hmmm true I don't know your obvious wealth of knowledge..on the WHY..its just been my and many othere area hunters who have personally observed since the 2 week closure during the rut has seemed to result in more deer, more sightings of BIG bucks and a lot more...and again in my opinion more of all types of deer..females and males and trophies...

perhaps we do need doe harvest..Im ok with that...and more habitat burns etc..closing that mule deer 2 week during the rut has helped.

cheers

Srupp


No it hasn't. Buck hunting has no effect on the overall deer population.

If you're seeing more deer, it's due to better habitat and/or fewer predators.

[Jelvis]

Don't forget hunters are predators also and they take a share of mule deer bucks and need to be regulated like any thing or anyone else when dealing with Crown Land. It belongs to the Crown and not some Williams Lake Rodeo clown. Hahahahaa
Jel .. I'll take the Crown over some arm chair bio clown anyday --- lol -- Williams Lake Stampede -- tuff mudders

[Fisher-Dude]

Buck numbers don't determine the mule deer population levels. Does and fawns do.

[Jelvis]

You should have on an average 10% mature ( ready to slay and ready to lay ) mule deer bucks, tuff, big even antlered rack at least 24 inches wide and heavy with perfect symmetry about from four and a half year old average, with testosterone surging through every cell in their muscular big boned body, per one hundred ready to stop runnin and quit playin coy, and have some funnin with the big boy.
So ten stud muley bucks to breed one hundred doe in heat -- One stud about ten each.
They got from October 20 to November 24th to breed ten each. 35 days. Ten into 35 is 3.5
Every three and a half days the stud buck has to attend a hot doe in three day heat to make his ten.
This is for a healthy herd, so you need forested cover for wind break from wind chill and cover to hide, need water sources, need feed and other deer to breed to make healthy herd.
-- You can use this on your College courses -- your welcome
Jellapeeno

[GoatGuy]

Jelvis, do you have a source for the "10% mature 24 inch bucks"? Or is it more fiction from the jelly vault.

All bucks, which are over 1 year old are sexually mature, so I guess in BC the minimum post hunt objective is 20 "mature" bucks per 100 does.

The advice would net you an F in a college course.

[Sitkaspruce]

I gotta agree with this ... though I am not familiar with region 5 . it is only reasonable that a shorter /restricted buck season (particularly during the rut)would result in more and likely bigger bucks .... this in itself = more deer .

Explain how will this work?? If the does are all getting pregnent, how is saving a few bucks during the rut creating more deer?? Are bucks now giving birth??:wink:

Like GG and a huge buch of other who know are saying, saving bucks will NOT create more deer at the current 5-20+ bucks/100 does.

If hunters used as much passion as they do to blaming other hunters and always wanting to change regulations on things that really matter like habitat improvements, predation control, unregulated hunting and other things that affect deer, sheep, moose, caribou etc, thing would like start to change for the better and we would not be having these discussions.

We need to start listening to science, forget our emotions and arm chair bio thoughts and take steps to creating more animals. Do some research, there is lots out there.

Cheers

SS

[one-shot-wonder]

Jelvis its never too late to go to college, it is very apparent in your 60 or so years you haven't spent much time studying population dynamics, or much of anything other than the BC backroads map book.

Sad to see the boyz in the Cariboo are misled regarding mule deer (and many other species) management. Truly is sad Reg 5 used to have some of the provinces most abundant populations both in number and in quality.

[one-shot-wonder]

If hunters used as much passion as they do to blaming other hunters and always wanting to change regulations on things that really matter like habitat improvements, predation control, unregulated hunting and other things that affect deer, sheep, moose, caribou etc, thing would like start to change for the better and we would not be having these discussions.

We need to start listening to science, forget our emotions and arm chair bio thoughts and take steps to creating more animals. Do some research, there is lots out there.

Cheers

SS

Sitka hit the nail on the head. I would argue that reg 5 has to have some of the most apathetic sportsman in the province. I believe one of the main factors for the population declines us as hunters are at fault. By not taking the Ministry to task when needed, also not being an active club member and trying to make a difference through ecosystems restoration projects, advocacy or awareness. We are very quick to blame the wolf or mt pine beetle salvage logging, but soon or later one needs to look in the mirror.

Looking forward to the day when I can take my kids or grandkids to reg 5 for LEH mule deer hunts. :cry:

[Timbow]

Predation is definitely a factor, particularly when habitat is in terrible shape.

The biggest thing we need to start turning our minds to is habitat enhancement. A lot of that country should be burned every 10 years and hasn't been burned in 60.


Not sure if I understand the burn aspect every 10 years. What part(s) of the Cariboo are you referring to?

[Fred1]

Not sure if I understand the burn aspect every 10 years. What part(s) of the Cariboo are you referring to?

Anything in the IDF.. give or take a few years...

[Timbow]

Sitka hit the nail on the head. I would argue that reg 5 has to have some of the most apathetic sportsman in the province. I believe one of the main factors for the population declines us as hunters are at fault. By not taking the Ministry to task when needed, also not being an active club member and trying to make a difference through ecosystems restoration projects, advocacy or awareness. We are very quick to blame the wolf or mt pine beetle salvage logging, but soon or later one needs to look in the mirror.

Looking forward to the day when I can take my kids or grandkids to reg 5 for LEH mule deer hunts. :cry:

Speaking from experience? What part of the Region 5 you are from?

[GoatGuy]

Not sure if I understand the burn aspect every 10 years. What part(s) of the Cariboo are you referring to?

Here's some stuff on ER work and NDT-4 in the Cariboo.

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/bib98256_Cariboo.pdf

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/slrp/lrmp/williamslake/cariboo_chilcotin/plan/biodiv/biodiv3.pdf

[Dannybuoy]

Explain how will this work?? If the does are all getting pregnent, how is saving a few bucks during the rut creating more deer?? Are bucks now giving birth??:wink:

Like GG and a huge buch of other who know are saying, saving bucks will NOT create more deer at the current 5-20+ bucks/100 does.

If hunters used as much passion as they do to blaming other hunters and always wanting to change regulations on things that really matter like habitat improvements, predation control, unregulated hunting and other things that affect deer, sheep, moose, caribou etc, thing would like start to change for the better and we would not be having these discussions.

We need to start listening to science, forget our emotions and arm chair bio thoughts and take steps to creating more animals. Do some research, there is lots out there.

Cheers

SS

Quite simple to explain ... For every deer (buck) not killed , that would add 1 to the deer population ... If say 500 bucks were not harvested as a result of a closure .. that would be a plus 500 to the deer population .. correct ? The big wily bucks get pretty stupid during this period as they are thinking with their little head and as a result get whacked . As its a 4 point season , bigger bucks would be the ones directly affected ... hence " more and likely bigger bucks "
How can there be any argument to that ??

[srupp]

Sitka hit the nail on the head. I would argue that reg 5 has to have some of the most apathetic sportsman in the province. I believe one of the main factors for the population declines us as hunters are at fault. By not taking the Ministry to task when needed, also not being an active club member and trying to make a difference through ecosystems restoration projects, advocacy or awareness. We are very quick to blame the wolf or mt pine beetle salvage logging, but soon or later one needs to look in the mirror.

Looking forward to the day when I can take my kids or grandkids to reg 5 for LEH mule deer hunts. :cry:
Hmmmmm Im certain you did not mean to slag , slander and lump all Region 5 sportsman together under
the derogatory apathtic Title .I am certain , from personal knowlege that there are a Lot of caring concerned hunters up here that indeed Do get involved .

Cheers
Srupp
Williams lake
Region 5 sportsman

[OutWest]

Quite simple to explain ... For every deer (buck) not killed , that would add 1 to the deer population ... If say 500 bucks were not harvested as a result of a closure .. that would be a plus 500 to the deer population .. correct ? The big wily bucks get pretty stupid during this period as they are thinking with their little head and as a result get whacked . As its a 4 point season , bigger bucks would be the ones directly affected ... hence " more and likely bigger bucks "
How can there be any argument to that ??

That doesn't add 1 deer to the population. Existing bucks are already part of said population. You're not making more deer by saving a few bucks. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

[Fisher-Dude]

Quite simple to explain ... For every deer (buck) not killed , that would add 1 to the deer population ... If say 500 bucks were not harvested as a result of a closure .. that would be a plus 500 to the deer population .. correct ? The big wily bucks get pretty stupid during this period as they are thinking with their little head and as a result get whacked . As its a 4 point season , bigger bucks would be the ones directly affected ... hence " more and likely bigger bucks "
How can there be any argument to that ??


Let's try to explain it:

Post-hunt under your scenario, we have 5,500 deer instead of 5,000. With me so far?

We have food and habitat for 5,000 deer. We didn't do anything to create more habitat and food, we just stopped shooting 500 bucks by closing the hunting season.

We have more predators now because we've got more deer going into the winter, so preds have lots to eat.

All deer - bucks, does, and fawns - have 10% less food because we have a 10% higher population on the winter range. Same food production, that hasn't changed because you'd rather save deer than fix habitat. 5,500 deer competing for food because you "saved" 500 more deer, on the habitat that supports 5,000 deer.

What does that do? Over-winter mortality is much higher than normal, because your deer population is 10% weaker with less food for each deer. More predators are chasing those under-nourished deer, because you kept the protein pit over-full for them. The preds are having a great time, lots of weaker deer that are easier to kill because they are 10% under-fed.

Fawn mortality will be much higher, as the little guys are more vulnerable to both predation and starvation and disease. Buck mortality will be higher, because rut-weak bucks have more bucks to compete with in the rut, and thus they enter winter in rougher shape and of course they face 10% less food due to those bucks you saved competing for eats with the rest of the population.

The result? Higher deer mortality. More predators that over-wintered well. Under-sized fawns born the next spring because the does had 10% less food. More miscarriages from food-stressed does. The under-sized buck fawns never outgrow their small starting body size, and never reach their genetic potential for antlers, thus over time you end up with smaller-antlered mature bucks. The pre-fawning deer population will be similar or possibly less in number, and certainly less healthy compared to the population if those 500 bucks had been shot.

What is it you want? Does the aftermath of not hunting those 500 bucks give you what you desired? I'm betting it doesn't when the science of mule deer management is taken into consideration.

[dana]

This is NOT a rut closure! They have their timing wrong if they indeed think that. Seems back in the 80's and 90's the peak of the rut was that timeframe but not now! I don't know if you can blame climate change but damn spring has been showing up later and later and I would say that the deer have compensated for that. Seems the peak of the rut nowadays is Nov 20-30th. So you boys are dreaming if you think rut crazed deer are being saved? hahaha! All this season does is push hunters to Region 3 during the Longweekend and then back Region 5 for the 20th. Those that book their holidays with the longweekend in 3 are too early. No added deer being killed just hunters bitching that they didn't see deer like in the good ol' days because they didn't adapt and change like the deer did. if you get your timing wrong, your mindset to the 'health' of the herd will be drastically different than hunters who had their timing right. In Region 5, those who live there have had the timing right because that is the week they can hunt again. Thus, the sightings are high and 'more big bucks' are around. Just a matter of perspective. The timing has dictated the perception! The deer have always been there, the 'big bucks' too. They are just damn good at hiding. The peak of the rut just allows hunters too see them better is all.

[aggiehunter]

Tigerr, glad to see you expressed your opinion on here and have not been drinking the Koolaid that makes you believe hunters don't actually kill deer in the rut they just "see them more"....hurrrummphh......

[Timbow]

[QUOTE=srupp;1503819]Hmmmmm Im certain you did not mean to slag , slander and lump all Region 5 sportsman together under
the derogatory apathtic Title .I am certain , from personal knowlege that there are a Lot of caring concerned hunters up here that indeed Do get involved .

That's pretty much how I read it as well Steve. Hopefully we will one day get that closure back as a GOS. I heard a rumor it will be LEH for that current closure. Only time will tell.

[GoatGuy]

This is NOT a rut closure! They have their timing wrong if they indeed think that. Seems back in the 80's and 90's the peak of the rut was that timeframe but not now! I don't know if you can blame climate change but damn spring has been showing up later and later and I would say that the deer have compensated for that. Seems the peak of the rut nowadays is Nov 20-30th. So you boys are dreaming if you think rut crazed deer are being saved? hahaha! All this season does is push hunters to Region 3 during the Longweekend and then back Region 5 for the 20th. Those that book their holidays with the longweekend in 3 are too early. No added deer being killed just hunters bitching that they didn't see deer like in the good ol' days because they didn't adapt and change like the deer did. if you get your timing wrong, your mindset to the 'health' of the herd will be drastically different than hunters who had their timing right. In Region 5, those who live there have had the timing right because that is the week they can hunt again. Thus, the sightings are high and 'more big bucks' are around. Just a matter of perspective. The timing has dictated the perception! The deer have always been there, the 'big bucks' too. They are just damn good at hiding. The peak of the rut just allows hunters too see them better is all.

There are two outcomes, it break it up enough that out of regioners will go somewhere else, avoiding the long weekend, and secondly check when the cougar season opens.

Region 5 is all about the politics.

[Bugle M In]

This is NOT a rut closure! They have their timing wrong if they indeed think that. Seems back in the 80's and 90's the peak of the rut was that timeframe but not now! I don't know if you can blame climate change but damn spring has been showing up later and later and I would say that the deer have compensated for that. Seems the peak of the rut nowadays is Nov 20-30th. So you boys are dreaming if you think rut crazed deer are being saved? hahaha! All this season does is push hunters to Region 3 during the Longweekend and then back Region 5 for the 20th. Those that book their holidays with the longweekend in 3 are too early. No added deer being killed just hunters bitching that they didn't see deer like in the good ol' days because they didn't adapt and change like the deer did. if you get your timing wrong, your mindset to the 'health' of the herd will be drastically different than hunters who had their timing right. In Region 5, those who live there have had the timing right because that is the week they can hunt again. Thus, the sightings are high and 'more big bucks' are around. Just a matter of perspective. The timing has dictated the perception! The deer have always been there, the 'big bucks' too. They are just damn good at hiding. The peak of the rut just allows hunters too see them better is all.


Totally agree.
I have been hunting reg 3 for years, and the peak seems later, but I am not sure if breeding has started sooner, I am not a Bio, just my personal observations as well, seems to match Dana.
All reg 5 closure did was impact reg 3 REALLY hard...so if I am bitchin about all the ADDED hunting pressure in Reg 3, it's because it IS!
What needs to be established is a Predator Reduction ( Wolf ) plan. ( Althogh I know Nature will correct it over time, but we have the ability to curb it now, and keep regions Open IMO. )
Also more Habitat ( Burns ), need to be created, and if possible away for logging roads.
Always easy to close an area, so hard to get to re-open, and if it does....what has changed????were changes made????or will it just happen again.
What policy or solution is in place to better the original problem ( if there was one?? ).....Can't just keep an entire region close with out Impacting the Balance In another region.
You might as well be packing all the wolves from Reg 5 down to Reg 3 for 10 days....hunters will have impacts in Reg 3 if it continues this way.
And I don't want Reg 3 closed one day, cause someone in Reg 5 didn't get there **** together!

Somebody in that ministry for Reg5 better have a plan, or maybe some of the Bios from other reg's need to have a talk with them!?


Still don't understand why they don't just have a 4 pt restriction on.....wouldn't that work??
And if so, having hunters in there during this time...wouldn't that help in predator control possibly??, by having hunters in there looking for a 4 pt....maybe they come across a wolf or 2??.


I will admit, I hunt reg 3, not reg 5, so my opinion is limited to what I experience in Reg 3, I can't really say what is really going wrong in Reg 5.

But there has got to be a PLAN???not just closing it to solve the problem.

[GoatGuy]

Totally agree.
I have been hunting reg 3 for years, and the peak seems later, but I am not sure if breeding has started sooner, I am not a Bio, just my personal observations as well, seems to match Dana.
All reg 5 closure did was impact reg 3 REALLY hard...so if I am bitchin about all the ADDED hunting pressure in Reg 3, it's because it IS!
What needs to be established is a Predator Reduction ( Wolf ) plan. ( Althogh I know Nature will correct it over time, but we have the ability to curb it now, and keep regions Open IMO. )
Also more Habitat ( Burns ), need to be created, and if possible away for logging roads.
Always easy to close an area, so hard to get to re-open, and if it does....what has changed????were changes made????or will it just happen again.
What policy or solution is in place to better the original problem ( if there was one?? ).....Can't just keep an entire region close with out Impacting the Balance In another region.
You might as well be packing all the wolves from Reg 5 down to Reg 3 for 10 days....hunters will have impacts in Reg 3 if it continues this way.
And I don't want Reg 3 closed one day, cause someone in Reg 5 didn't get there **** together!

Somebody in that ministry for Reg5 better have a plan, or maybe some of the Bios from other reg's need to have a talk with them!?


Still don't understand why they don't just have a 4 pt restriction on.....wouldn't that work??
And if so, having hunters in there during this time...wouldn't that help in predator control possibly??, by having hunters in there looking for a 4 pt....maybe they come across a wolf or 2??.


I will admit, I hunt reg 3, not reg 5, so my opinion is limited to what I experience in Reg 3, I can't really say what is really going wrong in Reg 5.

But there has got to be a PLAN???not just closing it to solve the problem.

Everyone involved was told that reg change would last one regulation cycle, then be changed back. That was two regulation cycles ago. The managers rationale to change wasn't supported by science, nor was it supported by anyone outside region 5.,

The plan in Region 5 is politics. The management in that region has been the bain of the province for close to two decades. There isn't a wildlife manager inside the branch (other than region 5) or that has retired that has anything good to say about the way Region 5 has managed wildlife.

Sheep have dissapeared, moose have disappeared, caribou have disappeared and they've done next to nothing other than change the regulations, piss money away, conduct inventory outside of RISC standards.

It truly is a sad state of affairs.

[Bugle M In]

Everyone involved was told that reg change would last one regulation cycle, then be changed back. That was two regulation cycles ago. The managers rationale to change wasn't supported by science, nor was it supported by anyone outside region 5.,

The plan in Region 5 is politics. The management in that region has been the bain of the province for close to two decades. There isn't a wildlife manager inside the branch (other than region 5) or that has retired that has anything good to say about the way Region 5 has managed wildlife.
Sheep have dissapeared, moose have disappeared, caribou have disappeared and they've done next to nothing other than change the regulations, piss money away, conduct inventory outside of RISC standards.

It truly is a sad state of affairs.



Thanks for the reply...That seems to make sense....strangely and sadly.

So...who are the people involved in this political incorrectness.
Maybe it is time to draw some bull eyes on the individuals responsible...so that we all know what is really going on.
Before there is a solution, one needs to know the problem......we all obviously see the cause and effect, regardless of where each of us stand.
One thing is true, we all want a region full of game, and want the best way to rectify it, not just more BS policy with no cure.

[Ricky Bobby]

Hmmmmm Im certain you did not mean to slag , slander and lump all Region 5 sportsman together under
the derogatory apathtic Title .I am certain , from personal knowlege that there are a Lot of caring concerned hunters up here that indeed Do get involved .

Cheers
Srupp
Williams lake
Region 5 sportsman

Caring yes, involved no. Lots of coffee shop bitching, lots of back yard beer drinking guys willing to voice an opinion, very very very few willing to stand up and do something.

If that wasn't the case the Reg 5 BCWF board wouldn't be talking about having reg 3 take over their rolls due to lack of involvment.

[6pt_elk_wannabe]

Fisher dude, some very strong points you have there. But how could the fawns die of starvation if they're not born until spring when everything's growing again?

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for the reply...That seems to make sense....strangely and sadly.

So...who are the people involved in this political incorrectness.
Maybe it is time to draw some bull eyes on the individuals responsible...so that we all know what is really going on.
Before there is a solution, one needs to know the problem......we all obviously see the cause and effect, regardless of where each of us stand.
One thing is true, we all want a region full of game, and want the best way to rectify it, not just more BS policy with no cure.

I think the best place to start and finish with all this stuff is MLAs. They need to start hearing people are not happy with the way wildlife is being managed. The system in BC is broken. There is no funding, no plan, no transparency, and no accountability. Hunters and more importantly, wildlife, is really suffering for it.

We need change.

[Bugle M In]

I think the best place to start and finish with all this stuff is MLAs. They need to start hearing people are not happy with the way wildlife is being managed. The system in BC is broken. There is no funding, no plan, no transparency, and no accountability. Hunters and more importantly, wildlife, is really suffering for it.

We need change.


Agreed...best place to start is with MLA's or even the minister ( who ever the hell he or she is right now?!? )
That person is responsible for who we have managing each region.
Would make sense for that minister to talk to other Bio's from other regions to see why things are screwed up...to see who and what is responsible.
Unfortunately, we only get to vote which MLA etc we want...we don't get to vote on head officials in each department ie. top dogs at land and resources etc.

So either some one there is screwing this all up, and the Minister needs to investigate this...OR...
Maybe there is more to this and we don't know the real story...and top guys in Reg 5 are just following orders??

But if all is above board, and there is some bad stuff happening in Reg5...the minister is the guy who needs to address it....
Meaning time for some heads to roll....it can't keep going on this way.

A letter to the minister....better yet a petition to start having things addressed, to show there is support for change in reg5, and that MLA's there need to start listening.
The BCWF should be stepping up to the plate for this...this is what they should be best at...???

They can always find us here to sign up...they have lists for all Rod n Gun clubs etc. and all the MLA's #'s.

As stated before...other Regions in BC will suffer for what is happening in Region5....just wait and see...if we all just want to watch, it will happen.

[Dannybuoy]

That doesn't add 1 deer to the population. Existing bucks are already part of said population. You're not making more deer by saving a few bucks. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

If existing bucks cease to exist ... they are no longer part of the population ..... your not "making" more deer by saving a few bucks but 100 minus one is always less than 100
In response to FD's reply IF winter range/fees is the issue then I see your point , it certainly isn't an issue here in the OK . I would think with all the logging in region 5 that feed would be in over abundance as well .

[limit time]

Agreed...best place to start is with MLA's or even the minister ( who ever the hell he or she is right now?!? )
That person is responsible for who we have managing each region.
Would make sense for that minister to talk to other Bio's from other regions to see why things are screwed up...to see who and what is responsible.
Unfortunately, we only get to vote which MLA etc we want...we don't get to vote on head officials in each department ie. top dogs at land and resources etc.

So either some one there is screwing this all up, and the Minister needs to investigate this...OR...
Maybe there is more to this and we don't know the real story...and top guys in Reg 5 are just following orders??

But if all is above board, and there is some bad stuff happening in Reg5...the minister is the guy who needs to address it....
Meaning time for some heads to roll....it can't keep going on this way.

A letter to the minister....better yet a petition to start having things addressed, to show there is support for change in reg5, and that MLA's there need to start listening.
The BCWF should be stepping up to the plate for this...this is what they should be best at...???

They can always find us here to sign up...they have lists for all Rod n Gun clubs etc. and all the MLA's #'s.

As stated before...other Regions in BC will suffer for what is happening in Region5....just wait and see...if we all just want to watch, it will happen.
Lets ***in do it!!

[one-shot-wonder]

Speaking from experience? What part of the Region 5 you are from?

You don't have to live in the boo to recognize a problem......

[one-shot-wonder]

Hmmmmm Im certain you did not mean to slag , slander and lump all Region 5 sportsman together under
the derogatory apathtic Title .I am certain , from personal knowlege that there are a Lot of caring concerned hunters up here that indeed Do get involved .

Cheers
Srupp
Williams lake
Region 5 sportsman

Steve, your right I don't lump ALL the sportsman together as I some of my good friends are the VERY FEW that are actively trying to make a difference. I would love to hear of how these concerned hunters are getting involved? The definitely aren't at the political level, and I sure don't see a stewardship presence out executing habitat restoration projects, etc.

Feel free to update us all on the 'what's going on'. Including your own efforts.

I am not slagging on these individual hunters, but as a whole it is very apparent that either the wrong trees are being barked up or there is no barking at all.......

[one-shot-wonder]

Agreed...best place to start is with MLA's or even the minister ( who ever the hell he or she is right now?!? )
That person is responsible for who we have managing each region.
Would make sense for that minister to talk to other Bio's from other regions to see why things are screwed up...to see who and what is responsible.
Unfortunately, we only get to vote which MLA etc we want...we don't get to vote on head officials in each department ie. top dogs at land and resources etc.

So either some one there is screwing this all up, and the Minister needs to investigate this...OR...
Maybe there is more to this and we don't know the real story...and top guys in Reg 5 are just following orders??

But if all is above board, and there is some bad stuff happening in Reg5...the minister is the guy who needs to address it....
Meaning time for some heads to roll....it can't keep going on this way.

A letter to the minister....better yet a petition to start having things addressed, to show there is support for change in reg5, and that MLA's there need to start listening.
The BCWF should be stepping up to the plate for this...this is what they should be best at...???

They can always find us here to sign up...they have lists for all Rod n Gun clubs etc. and all the MLA's #'s.

As stated before...other Regions in BC will suffer for what is happening in Region5....just wait and see...if we all just want to watch, it will happen.

Glad to see you are passionate.....you recognize there is a problem (doesn't take a rocket scientist). You as well as the residents of Reg 5 need to drive change. How does one drive change?? You already answered the question.....get politically involved. Write an email to your MLA. Write an email to the Honourable Minister Steve Thomson. Show up to a BCWF regional or club meeting and ask questions.

The heads you are referring to that need to roll.......perhaps we should be asking why the Regional Manager Roger Stewart is allowing his region to go into the sewer!!!

As we all know if Region 5 gets squeaky the wheel will get its grease, it is just a matter of time. Glad to hear you care, time to step up and own your province.......

[Timbow]

Here's some stuff on ER work and NDT-4 in the Cariboo.

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/bib98256_Cariboo.pdf

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/slrp/lrmp/williamslake/cariboo_chilcotin/plan/biodiv/biodiv3.pdf


Thanks for the reply and info.

[dana]

I find some of the posts here rather comical. There are some that say the hunting of bucks during this timeframe won't affect the overall herd in Region 5 and yet we have the belief that it will indeed affect the overal herd in Region 3 ????? Seriously???? I beleive some are acting like chicken little by claiming the sky is falling. Fisher Dude pulls some numbers out of his ass on some make believe diaster and people jump on the bandwagon and follow him. While he is right that the harvesting of bucks in this window of 10 days is not going to hurt the population in the slightest, I don't believe not harvesting bucks during this timeframe is going to lead to a collapse like in his make believe scenerio. Neither do I believe that this closure in Region 5 will lead to a collapse in Region 3. Some need to step away from the sky is falling mantra that they have been preaching and actually look at reality. Deer numbers in both Region 5 and Region 3 are healthy and robust. Sure in some units we have experienced a slight drop from the highs of the mid2000s, that doesn't mean deer are going extinct! The number 1 reason for the decline was predator related. It was not habitat related whatsoever. As a matter of fact, Region 5 has experienced some very large and significant burns in the last 10 years. Winters have been historically milder that in the past as well. Significant moisture combined with high amounts of sun has lead to amazing veg growth. Essentially, you have good conditions to grow deer. So is it the end of the world or are some just over reacting?????

[Sitkaspruce]

Quite simple to explain ... For every deer (buck) not killed , that would add 1 to the deer population ... If say 500 bucks were not harvested as a result of a closure .. that would be a plus 500 to the deer population .. correct ? The big wily bucks get pretty stupid during this period as they are thinking with their little head and as a result get whacked . As its a 4 point season , bigger bucks would be the ones directly affected ... hence " more and likely bigger bucks "
How can there be any argument to that ??

Since you sound like a trophy hunter and want bigger bucks and not more deer, you do realize that with your theory, you will actually be shooting your up and coming "big bucks" by putting pressure on those 2-3yo bucks that grow 4pt, the bucks that already show great genes for being a "Big Buck". In a scense you are killing your deer before they get to the "Big Buck" stage. If you went to any buck, those who like the meat will shoot the spiker and young 2-3pt (who might never materialize into a 4pt) and will spend the time looking for one. Now you force those same meat hunters to drive around looking for a 4pt of bigger buck to put meat in the freezer, now putting more pressure on those bucks, mean while the smaller 3pt will remain a 3 pt. Not all MD bucks get to a 4pt in their life.

In the end, you have ask yourself, do you want "Big Bucks" or more deer, but since neither can be attained by the 4pt season, you will be scratching your head wondering what has happened when it goes to LEH.


If existing bucks cease to exist ... they are no longer part of the population ..... your not "making" more deer by saving a few bucks but 100 minus one is always less than 100
In response to FD's reply IF winter range/fees is the issue then I see your point , it certainly isn't an issue here in the OK . I would think with all the logging in region 5 that feed would be in over abundance as well .

Winter range is declining all across BC, hell we are going to take a good chunk of some of the best in the Peace by building Site C. Cutblocks do not provide winter range, they are good spring/summer range food and that is only if it has not grown up or the cattle have not overgrazed it. The Fraser breaks are good winter range (again if it is not overgrazed or fragamented by roads and human encroachment), but is shared by sheep, cattle and deer, so it is is not all good. Burns provide great food all season and cut back on evergreen encroachment, thus allowing important food to grow.

It is a balancing act that has been severly mismanaged here in BC. Too many political and emotional influences and not enough science based decissions being made, which affects both wildlife and hunters. We need to get back to grass roots science based wildlife management that benifits ALL.

Cheers

SS

[one-shot-wonder]

Dana,

Interesting perspective and I partially agree with you. However habitat is an issue partially. thanks to decades of fire suppression the habitat is not ideal for predator evasion, maximum nutrition, etc. Yes the 2003-04 and recent fires were helpful but we needed large scale fires in the late 80's & 90's to maintain healthy MD herds to thwart the escalating predator cycle. I fully agree the preds needed and continue to need to be dealt with, but we all know predator management doesn't happen.

The most effective approach is both pred reduction and habitat enhancement. The two go hand in hand.......

[Bugle M In]

" As a matter of fact, Region 5 has experienced some very large and significant burns in the last 10 years. Winters have been historically milder that in the past as well. Significant moisture combined with high amounts of sun has lead to amazing veg growth. Essentially, you have good conditions to grow deer. So is it the end of the world or are some just over reacting?????[/QUOTE]

Okay!....so why is 5 closed for 10 days???

I'm not worried about the sky falling!!.....Just worried about bad policy or other factors contributing to bad decisions and other areas paying for it.

Sounds like info from others also state this for region 5.

I'm not anti logging by any means...trust me...but logging doesn't always equate to good winter habitat or protection from bad winters.
I won't even start on roads and ease of access.

Trees do grow back.....and quite often they grow back faster then changing bad policies.

Leh or closed season for Mulies?? really....unless there is so much hunting pressure or winter range / migration routes that suddenly get screwed, is strange thinking to me.

[Fisher-Dude]

Here's what 8 of the most respected biologists in BC have to say about the Regional Manager in region 5 and his "decisions."

Pretty scathing when you've f'ed up so badly that this group has to go to the Minister and the media to call you out. Rather unprecedented among professional bios' ranks, I'd say. Read it through. It will give you some insight on the lack of biologically sound choices that were made when this regulation came to be.

100 Mile Free Press
Aug. 25, 2009
Joint Letter to the Honourable Barry Penner, Minister of Environment,
on the need for improved deer and moose management in
Region 5, Cariboo-Chilcotin.

Dear Minister Penner,

The eight signatories to this letter are retired senior wildlife biologists
who have extensive wildlife management experience in the province of
British Columbia.

We write to express our concerns about the lack of biologically sound
management strategies for mule deer and moose in the Cariboo-Chilcotin
region. This year’s regulation changes saw the continued erosion of hunting
opportunities for BC resident deer and moose hunters.

The 100 Mile Free Press recently published several letters and articles
from local residents complaining about the lack of hunting opportunities in
the face of abundant deer and moose populations. Visiting resident hunters
are seeking hunting opportunities in other regions or quitting hunting
altogether, which has impacts on the regional economy — an economy which is
already suffering from the severe economic downturn in the forest industry.

Overly conservative management of expanding deer populations results in
damage to deer habitat; private gardens and ranchers’ hayfields; attracts
dangerous predators to the urban/forest fringe; and can result in increased
vehicle/wildlife collisions.

In numerous meetings and in correspondence with local BC Wildlife
Federation members and in newspaper articles, the regional manager
continues to rationalize his actions as being necessary to meet the needs
of First Nations and for a perceived need to reduce the harvest of antlered
and antler-less deer in order to restore the sex ratio.

As experienced BC wildlife managers, we recognize and respect the
province’s responsibilities for conservation and its fiduciary
responsibilities to First Nations. It is our professional judgment,
however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake
Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal
reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own
observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be
exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats.

Responsible wildlife management puts conservation first, considers all
interests and prescribes sustainable harvest levels, which, in the case of
the Cariboo-Chilcotin, means greater hunting opportunities, not fewer as
prescribed by the Williams Lake regional manager.

The overly-restrictive regulations that have been implemented in Region 5
over the past 10 to 12 years place the deer and moose populations at risk
for a severe over-winter die-off such as occurred in the Peace River in the
2006-2007 winter. Such die-offs occurred in the Cariboo and Chilcotin in
the past when deer and moose populations exceeded the carrying capacity of
their habitats and benefitted no one.

In our view, the actions of the Williams Lake regional manager are contrary
to your ministry’s wildlife management policies. Instead of encouraging
more hunters through more liberal harvests to meet the goals of your
ministry’s Resident Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy and
simplifying the regulations as prescribed in the Provincial Wildlife
Harvest Strategy, the changes that were adopted for 2009-2010 added more
restrictions and complexity to the already overly complex regulations.

Adjacent regions, namely the Omineca and Thompson-Nicola, have been
administering successful moose management programs over a period of 25
years that sustain healthy, productive moose herds, produce more moose with
fewer complaints and enjoy a high degree of public support. Despite these
excellent examples, the Region 5 regional manager refuses to begin
implementing a similar strategy.

We respectfully request that you institute an independent review of Region
5’s mule deer and moose management strategies. Pursuing your government’s
goal of science-informed and consensus-based resource management planning
will not be possible as long as key members of your administration fail to
fully support your policies and develop their own unilateral approaches to
wildlife management.

Yours sincerely,

Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator
Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section

[dana]

Dana,

Interesting perspective and I partially agree with you. However habitat is an issue partially. thanks to decades of fire suppression the habitat is not ideal for predator evasion, maximum nutrition, etc. Yes the 2003-04 and recent fires were helpful but we needed large scale fires in the late 80's & 90's to maintain healthy MD herds to thwart the escalating predator cycle. I fully agree the preds needed and continue to need to be dealt with, but we all know predator management doesn't happen.

The most effective approach is both pred reduction and habitat enhancement. The two go hand in hand.......

No doubt in my mind that fire supression over the last 50 years has indeed changed things. But looking at things realistically, I don't see that changing over the next 50 years. Even after the 2003 fires and a inquiry report written by a former Premier saying we need more prescribed burns etc, the government will not do it due to liability issues. A wildfire caused by lightning is an Act of God if it burns down houses, a wildfire caused by government and approved by government that burns down houses is a Liable case and the government will be on the hook. They can even be sued over Air quailty. So they would rather gamble and let mother nature decide. You can't sue God!

The one thing that we must keep in mind is that fire suppression is not what it used to be. The days of Hit it Fast and Hit it Hard are long over. Now it is a mindset of Nobody moves, Nobody Gets Hurt! Saftey is the number 1 issue. We do not have hotshots dying in wildfires like in Merica. In all reality, we do not put out fires now, nature puts out fires! Sure, last year would have been drastically different if the countless spot fires were not actioned. Nature just didn't allow for things to get out of hand. For wildlife's sake, hopefully this year is different. :)

I do agree in some ares of the province wildlife have been mismanaged. I do agree that hunting regulation tweeks don't have the slightest impact on wildlife population dynamics. i do agree that many of the things done are due to social/political reasons and are not based on the reality of science. But....I don't believe the sky is falling. I have been a student of nature and I know she has a way of working things out. Sure moose pops have collapse in many areas of the province. But we are not alone in this. Moose pops are in drastic decline across most of North America. We have been here before! Historic highs to extreme lows and back again to highs. Interesting to read that letter years after it was written and see that the collapse predicted actually happened in Region 5 but it also happened in 7a and 3 which were being praised for their moose management. Sometimes nature just does what nature does and we can't do anything about it. Hopefully new things will be learned and the new science can be implented in the future 20 years down the line.

[dana]

" As a matter of fact, Region 5 has experienced some very large and significant burns in the last 10 years. Winters have been historically milder that in the past as well. Significant moisture combined with high amounts of sun has lead to amazing veg growth. Essentially, you have good conditions to grow deer. So is it the end of the world or are some just over reacting?????

Okay!....so why is 5 closed for 10 days???

I'm not worried about the sky falling!!.....Just worried about bad policy or other factors contributing to bad decisions and other areas paying for it.

Sounds like info from others also state this for region 5.

I'm not anti logging by any means...trust me...but logging doesn't always equate to good winter habitat or protection from bad winters.
I won't even start on roads and ease of access.

Trees do grow back.....and quite often they grow back faster then changing bad policies.

Leh or closed season for Mulies?? really....unless there is so much hunting pressure or winter range / migration routes that suddenly get screwed, is strange thinking to me.[/QUOTE]

Why is it closed? Simple fact of Social/Political reasons. Same reason the Region 8 closes on the 10th of Nov as well. With all the complaints about Region 5, no one is pointing the finger at Region 8 which has more restrictive seasons! Then there is the whole Region 4 debacle. hahaha. But do we want to open up that can of worms yet again for the upteenth time? Region 3 has been the leader in proper deer management and continue to go it on their own while the adjacent Regions give in to the Social/political excuses. I admit I was worried when Region 5 closed down that week, that it would have major ripples in Region 3. But here we are numerous years after and things are still steady as she goes and our deer population in most of the Region are Very healthy and vigourous. The influx of hunters over the Nov Long Weekend has not created a knee jerk reaction from our managers. They have bucked the social pressure and stayed the course. My hats off to them for doing a great job!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

We wave fingers and flap gums a lot in 8 trying to liberalize MD seasons. There's change a-foot, with a new science-based man coming to the helm in Penticton, so I have hopes for future changes and enhancements. ;)

[dana]

FD, I know you guys have bern working for change in 8 but rarely do we see those big HBC debate threads about 8 like we do with other Regions. Why is that? If the goal of these internet debates is to stir hunters to get involved and writing letters and such, then why have you not been pushing those same buttons about 8 when it is indeed one of the worst for hunter opportunity?

[Bugle M In]

My hats off to them in Reg 3 as well ...agreed.
when I speak of reg 3, I speak more of the impact that LM's, like myself, make when certain areas are closed.
Us weekend guys from the city only travel so far....so many units in reg3 don't get hit hard regardless of Reg5 being closed due to us cityboys not travelling as far.
But, man, some units are getting hammered since 5 is closed.
Same reason some Units in Reg8 suffer ( not all ), so I understand some of the regs for that region, especially when you add in some of the locals from some of those big towns inland as well.

But, getting back to the thread, I was curious to know why 5 is closed...what is going on there...is it a legit reason...or just bad management.
If so, then this is why this forum is in place.

This is a forum...and for each thread there will be people FOR something.... and others AGAINST.
That will never change, and I accept that.

What does humour me is, you can have a whole group of people FOR something, the majority let's say, yet some waste all their time chest beating what the reasons are for it....theories etc.
Meanwhile, the issue at hand...say a bad policy, is never addressed properly.

So, I guess what I am asking is...is it a bad policy...if so...what needs to be done to get someone to look at it...to fix it......who should be looking at it....If it indeed needs fixing.
From my understanding, from what some have said, there has been no science established for this decision....
Has BCWF or someone with a larger voice asked what's up or been given a reasonable explanation to what's going on.

Nothing is perfect and Each region will have it's quirks and problems ( and this is a good place to discuss them ),
Just sounds like Reg 5 seems to be worse ...or say in the cross hair by many here....deer...moose etc.....basically what Goatguy summarized.
This thread is about Reg 5, I made the mistake of adding Reg 3, only because Reg 5 policy is having a "Rippling" effect into some units in Reg 3 that obviously border Reg 5 units which are closed.
I guess that's why this thread caught my eye...cause where I hunt in Nov....I see an impact of vehicles...but I don't have the science to see what real impact it has.
And ya...some people here ARE LISTENING...because some of these guys are in fact stepping out of their trucks....and hoofin it....like myself.......BUT
Now we keep running into each other in the middle of nowhere, where once I walked and saw no one for years.
That only happened after Reg 5 closed....So ya....I have a personal interest in seeing 5 opened again...cause I'm getting too old to seek out new honey holes.

But seriously...sounds like Reg5 has more problems then it actually should...I think you even said that conditions and feed are and have been good several years.....
Hopefully some good can come from this thread, regardless of which side of the fence each of us stand on.
Let's face it...we all want healthy pops of all species....so we can hunt them...with equal opportunity.....period!

[dana]

BugleMIn,
Don't confuse hunter density with hunter success. Just because some areas might get crowded on a longweekend doesn't mean there is high success in that said area and the animal population suffers. There is an old saying that says "10 percent of the hunters kill about 90 percent of the game." What that is refering to is there are a low number of good hunters who see success on a regular basis and there are a lot of average to poor hunters who see success not so often. Most of the hunters who see success often are not hunting the super crowded conditions. When things get busy, animals tend to avoid exposure. They become heavy timber bound and nocturnal. Making the hunting conditions very tough. Like I said earlier, perception is not necessarily reality. When hunting conditions are poor, hunters tend to jump to conclusions that the animals have all died, so they get back from their hunts they post up on internet forums like this one saying how bad things are and that things need to change because the animal population is in the toliet! Hunters who have never hunted the said area believe what they are reading on the internet and soon there is a movement afoot to change the hunting regulations. Perception and reality are 2 different things. The hunters call the wildlife managers and demand changes when changes aren't needed. The wildlife mangers don't have balls to stay the course and cave and season changes are put into effect. No science, just social management at it's best. So when you ask what needs to change, I will put it out there that you need to change your own mindset first. You have twice hinted at affected game populations in Region 3 post Region 5 Nov closure. You are part of the problem, as there are many hunters on this site that will take your observations as gospel. Your perception is no where near reality.

[Bugle M In]

sorry Dana...disagree.

I'm not preaching...not my style.
If you look at what I said..was this.
I hunted an area that was low impact...really.
the area was passed along to me by a very successful mulie hunter ...such as yourself.
the reason he hunted here...because areas he would have preferred, just had way to much traffic for his liking.
For 20 years...I rarely saw a person in this area...the odd local who do keep it a secret..or try to.
But, as soon as 5 closed....I guess this so called secret...probably was not as much of a secret as now it became a parade over night.
Probably an old hot spot that slowed down and people gave up on...maybe...don't know....doesn't really matter.

As for you...I see how you end up in problems...at times with other members.
I actually enjoy reading your experience on Mulie hunting, never hurts to learn more from others.
the problem you have ...at times...and pops up quite often here on threads.....is you do chest beat yourself to much at times.
There are others here...who do think there is a problem within reg 5...and some who think things are fine...policies in place for a reason.
All I said is ...What's UP??....
Cause I do see the traffic in Reg 3 unit #**...big time....I don't care whats up in Clearwater...never go there...too far for a weekend....my problem I live in the city where my line of work exists.
And as for success...I'm fine... eat tag soup only cause I don't shoot dinks.....besides Elk much tastier...so when I book trips for longer travel, it for elk or something different like sheep.

Guess what I really want to say is...I don't feel it's a good idea to close a region down if it doesn't need to be..so as to spread out the demographics of hunters.
Deer will never disappear...nor moose nor wolf...I get it.

Thanks for the mindcheck...all okay here...really!!.
By the way...how is Skull mtn doing....heard from a local not so good...but hey bro...just one opinion.
Cheers.

[dana]

hahaha! You asked the question as to what's up and I gave you the answer! Social decisions based on emotion not science. You don't like the answer because part of the 'social' problem is actually your very own mindset. You agree with Goatguy in theory but throw it out in practice. Goatguy and others have stated the science. Buck harvest will not affect the deer population. You agree with that when it comes to Region 5. And yet you think the increased hunter traffic to Region 3 has affected the deer population in 3. Your words are there are places in Region 3 that are getting hammered. Those were the exact words that hunters in Region 5 used that lead to the closure!!!!! Being from the city, you don't get to see the areas you hunt very often. So the perception when you see a bunch of hunters on the longweekend, is the deer are getting hammered. Which I would say as someone who covers much of Region 3 year round is utter garbage! No where am I pounding my chest and talking about Clearwater. I am refering to the bulk of Region 3 in it's entirety. You mention Skull. I have heard many hunters bitch about skull. I have also heard many hunters bitch about Kamloops. The perception online is vastly different than the reality on the ground. Skull is still booming and Kamloops is unbelievable. The deer numbers are through the roof. In the 25 or so years that I have been hunting the Kamloops area, I have not seen so many deer. And yet there are some on the internet that say there are no deer left. They were all slaughtered by out-of-region hunters who decended upon Kamloops once Region 5 put in the closure. Again, perception does not match reality. Soooo, if the managers in 3 caved to public presure instead of following science, the late season could be lost forever. This is what has happened in Region 5. This is what happened in Region 4. Social management instead of management by science. Thank God the managers in 3 aren't the type to abandon science over the social whinning of hunters on the internet! You want to see change in the way things are managed across this province, start by applying the science and throw out the emotion. Perception versus reality. Who is going to win out?

[aggiehunter]

Science...Schmience.....

[jessbennett]

Hmm lots of deer and plenty of bucks...some pretty decent size...seems to me the changes have helped if just for the number of bucks

Srupp


exactly!!!! deer numbers are really good and there is tonnes of bucks. i guess extra regulations and closures DO work to increase animal populations....

[Jelvis]

Open country begins around Tatla Lake, when coming east.
Hwy 20.
-- Mule deer here.
Hwy 20 paved to Hanceville, 95 km's west of Williams Lake gives access to the West Chilcotin moose and mules.
Mu 5-1 used to be good hunting for mules in the south east corner, Windy etc.
MU 5-2 good moose and deer hunting, access from north or south end of Lac La Hache
MU 5-3 has good deer hunting in the southern part of 5-3
Mu 5-4 Hanceville south west -- Lees Corner and Taseko Lakes. (Big Creek - Fletcher lake - Taseko) road
Mu 5-5 Tatla Lake -- Chilko-Tsuniah road turns south from Hwy 20, 84 k west of Willy's Pond. And take a right fork at Bluff Lake road good deer on ridges behind Mosley Creek and Sapeye Lake. Good deer on the ridges just north of Tatla Village
Mu 5-13 (Chilcotin East)--- North and northwest of Alexis Creek has major logging roads which opened up what once was the best mule hunting is now fair. So many roads all through the country side. Lovely country to hunt and still has mules.
Some nice spots to hunt and have mule deer.
Clear cuts and logging roads have crisscrossed what once was a special hunting area with little access.
Jel -- Can you figure it out? No trees and lots of roads? lol -- no cover, no place to hide.

[jessbennett]

Buck numbers don't determine the mule deer population levels. Does and fawns do.


this is the dumbest thing i have heard in a while.
i take it you werent allowed to attend "sex ed" in school?? population is controlled by reproduction. if there is no bucks to breed the does, deer populations will not increase. ..........pretty simple stuff.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

this is the dumbest thing i have heard in a while.
i take it you werent allowed to attend "sex ed" in school?? population is controlled by reproduction. if there is no bucks to breed the does, deer populations will not increase. ..........pretty simple stuff.

So at what buck to doe ratios lead to an increase in Population and what buck to doe ratios lead to a decrease In population ?

[Jelvis]

Some say " Oh you don't need 4 year old mule deer bucks or older to breed the doe." A one year old can do it.
This isn't science or emotion, this is wayyyy out there.
In Region 3 year after year I see mule deer in the wilds of Kamloops.
The big bucks are doing the breeding and the youth bucks are watching from far away. Big bucks take over the situation just by being there. The subordinate bucks cower away and stand fifty yards away looking.
I've seen does kick and run from a two or three point like he was a bag a nuttin honey. Turned him down like he was a piece of sheet.
If there is 100 does that are entering estrus in an area of 60 square km's they will need ten burly brush busting bruiser bucks to do the deed, dirty deeds done dirt cheap. Those young small bucks don't have a chance in hell. No chance! He's got no chance.
Mule bucks will hang downwind of a hot doe, laying in wait, in the nearby trees just above the doe if possible.
The mature buck has mingled and mangled last season for real and knows what's next and when after he lip curls. He can sense the time is up and he comes down and the littler bucks and weaker dinks scatter like mice tails between their skinny bony legs.
The female mule deer wants to see the buck with a high, wide, thick, long, even tined rack of antlers.
She sees it and her knees get weak and he takes a peek. Then it's up to the lip curl sensor.
The buck can stay up to a three day stretch with one doe until she finally stops walkin and starts talkin.
After that he heads out and finds another in heat. Not hard to do for a big buck mule deer.
Big bucks can travel at 12 km an hour all day and night when lit up like a shooting star.
One thing you armchair bios forgot, buck mules cross over into the neighbors yard and those bucks from there come over to his home yard. They breed does from another bloodline friend a mine.
Jel .. You can use this in your University papers -- or college courses.

[limit time]

exactly!!!! deer numbers are really good and there is tonnes of bucks. i guess extra regulations and closures DO work to increase animal populations....
So why the restrictions?

[Ambush]

In whitetail populations with a good cross section of age classes, the mature bucks breed an average of 3.5 does per season. But since there are fewer mature bucks, then most of the breeding is done by younger bucks. Mature bucks "take" a doe off by themselves and wait on her before going looking for more, often referred to as "lock down". In so doing they miss a block of the estrous cycle. The less experienced bucks travel lots, taking every chance opportunity.

Not sure how much whitetail data can be transposed to mule deer, but some for sure.

[Gateholio]

Quite simple to explain ... For every deer (buck) not killed , that would add 1 to the deer population ... If say 500 bucks were not harvested as a result of a closure .. that would be a plus 500 to the deer population .. correct ? The big wily bucks get pretty stupid during this period as they are thinking with their little head and as a result get whacked . As its a 4 point season , bigger bucks would be the ones directly affected ... hence " more and likely bigger bucks "
How can there be any argument to that ??

4pt doesnt necissarily mean bigger. lots of smal 4 pts are killed in 4 pt season

[Jelvis]

It takes 5 and a half years for a mule deer buck to reach maximum skeletal growth. Fully grown skeleton.
-- now each year the antlers will grow bigger faster, because the calcium is maintaining and not growing.
therefore more antler development.
-- A human man's skeleton is done at 27 years old. Fully developed bones.
-- so a 5 and a half year old mule buck is 27 years old on a human scale.
a year and a half year old buck would be 6 so that's a pile of written bunk imho.

[Bugle M In]

Dana,

Please take the time to read all my posts anywhere throughout this site. ( on any thread )
Nowhere, and I mean nowhere....have I ever once stated that some species of game in some area are all gone or all shot up....NEVER!
If I hadn't had success at any time...it may be do to bad timing...hot weather, or just not very active or luck was not on my side...or not enough time to count 6pts etc.
Nowhere I ever stated....A region should be closed...ever!
The opposite in fact...
I understand areas change, populations shrink and swell...sometimes a little...sometimes a lot.
Big bodied deer , don't equate to big antlered or vice versa etc. etc....blah ba blah ba blah.
I watched large mature bucks breed...I've seen small not so mature bucks breeding or atleast trying to breed...yadayadayada

I don't hunt Reg 5...one day I might...who knows..??
A few people took the time to answer what I didn't know...what is happening in 5.
Goatguy replied...and one other posted a letter from 2009 from some top guys. ( apology to that person...can't think of their name right now )

The reason for my curiosity in 5 was because I did notice the large parade of vehicles in 3 where I hunt, same year 5 closed.
There is no point for argument on this.

I don't like seeing areas closed.....not without reason.
But all closing 5 does is just leave 3 exposed to more hunting pressure....and I don't want to see 3 ever closed like everywhere else.
I enjoy the late season hunt for mulies...a lot, since I spend the early season on elk mostly.
What I want to see is more areas OPEN!...so we guys can spread back out.....all I ever see are things closing.
I'm fine with 6 pt season in EK...but I think 3pt or better should be put back in place....just as long as there are opportunities.
No closure...no LEH....IMO
But please don't read more into stuff...no where do I want closure....no where do I say the game is all gone...
Some areas slow down...years later they pick up....

I do worry if more areas keep closing the window for hunting time, and that we all get compressed into tighter and tighter circles is all.

Honestly...I like the concept of LEH for it's real reason of inception , but where I hunt Goats in the East Koots...for every year since I have hunted them there, 15+
it has been 0.6:1 odds for drawing it...........never understood why they didn't remove it from the draw....no one else wants to climb into that hell hole, nobody applies, and
after 15 years...you think they might see it is not a concern due to too many hunters...but it stays leh?

So....don't get me wrong...don't ever consider my words "Hinting Towards " etc....unless they are actually spoken.

Oh ya,.....It does seem the rut has moved more into the Nov 20th to 30th, just my thought as well, so closing from 10th to 20th is maybe...just maybe...not helping anyways.

Sounds like that old letter from 2009 needs to be rehashed into some form of petition...if it is still the opinions expressed by many who's JOB it is to get this sort of stuff right.
I guess we can all have excuses why we don't often get involved...
but I have always taken the time to sign petitions, if, in my opinion it helps.

I follow this forum so as to stay somewhat in touch to on goings thruout the province etc.
I don't always have the time or opportunity for late breaking news....but that's why I became a member.

Forums...sometimes there like an Annual AGM gone wrong.
Anyways, just one thread, I think I will survive it!
Sometimes words typed and read are much differently interpreted, then if they had just been spoken.
I have met some great guys out in the woods the past few years, who also belong to this site...so it's been a positive for sure..

" Holy Shit...it just occurred to me!!!! I met most of these guys since Reg 5 closed!!:shock:
Who said good things can't come from bad decisions:mrgreen:

[LBM]

Dana,

Please take the time to read all my posts anywhere throughout this site. ( on any thread )
Nowhere, and I mean nowhere....have I ever once stated that some species of game in some area are all gone or all shot up....NEVER!
If I hadn't had success at any time...it may be do to bad timing...hot weather, or just not very active or luck was not on my side...or not enough time to count 6pts etc.
Nowhere I ever stated....A region should be closed...ever!
The opposite in fact...
I understand areas change, populations shrink and swell...sometimes a little...sometimes a lot.
Big bodied deer , don't equate to big antlered or vice versa etc. etc....blah ba blah ba blah.
I watched large mature bucks breed...I've seen small not so mature bucks breeding or atleast trying to breed...yadayadayada

I don't hunt Reg 5...one day I might...who knows..??
A few people took the time to answer what I didn't know...what is happening in 5.
Goatguy replied...and one other posted a letter from 2009 from some top guys. ( apology to that person...can't think of their name right now )

The reason for my curiosity in 5 was because I did notice the large parade of vehicles in 3 where I hunt, same year 5 closed.
There is no point for argument on this.

I don't like seeing areas closed.....not without reason.
But all closing 5 does is just leave 3 exposed to more hunting pressure....and I don't want to see 3 ever closed like everywhere else.
I enjoy the late season hunt for mulies...a lot, since I spend the early season on elk mostly.
What I want to see is more areas OPEN!...so we guys can spread back out.....all I ever see are things closing.
I'm fine with 6 pt season in EK...but I think 3pt or better should be put back in place....just as long as there are opportunities.
No closure...no LEH....IMO
But please don't read more into stuff...no where do I want closure....no where do I say the game is all gone...
Some areas slow down...years later they pick up....

I do worry if more areas keep closing the window for hunting time, and that we all get compressed into tighter and tighter circles is all.

Honestly...I like the concept of LEH for it's real reason of inception , but where I hunt Goats in the East Koots...for every year since I have hunted them there, 15+
it has been 0.6:1 odds for drawing it...........never understood why they didn't remove it from the draw....no one else wants to climb into that hell hole, nobody applies, and
after 15 years...you think they might see it is not a concern due to too many hunters...but it stays leh?

So....don't get me wrong...don't ever consider my words "Hinting Towards " etc....unless they are actually spoken.

Oh ya,.....It does seem the rut has moved more into the Nov 20th to 30th, just my thought as well, so closing from 10th to 20th is maybe...just maybe...not helping anyways.

Sounds like that old letter from 2009 needs to be rehashed into some form of petition...if it is still the opinions expressed by many who's JOB it is to get this sort of stuff right.
I guess we can all have excuses why we don't often get involved...
but I have always taken the time to sign petitions, if, in my opinion it helps.

I follow this forum so as to stay somewhat in touch to on goings thruout the province etc.
I don't always have the time or opportunity for late breaking news....but that's why I became a member.

Forums...sometimes there like an Annual AGM gone wrong.
Anyways, just one thread, I think I will survive it!
Sometimes words typed and read are much differently interpreted, then if they had just been spoken.
I have met some great guys out in the woods the past few years, who also belong to this site...so it's been a positive for sure..

" Holy Shit...it just occurred to me!!!! I met most of these guys since Reg 5 closed!!:shock:
Who said good things can't come from bad decisions:mrgreen:

Don't no anything about region 5 but curious about the region 4 goat area you mention.
You say nobody else hunts it or applys for it so doesn't really matter if it is not LEH or not you still
get to hunt it every year.
You mention you have hunted it for 15 plus years, how many goats have you taken in that time
and of what sex and age. what have you observed in this time for an increase or decrease in population.
Are you only there for a couple weeks a year in the fall or do you watch the area through all the seasons of a year.
Thanks.

[dana]

BugleMIn,
The intent in your words and the perception can be 2 different things. Most guys perceive I'm a grumpy old ******* but the reality is I am far from it. Your words were that some units in Region 3 were getting hammered. That is it. You mean more hunting pressure. Many on this site take those words to mean something totally different. To most, they intreprete those words to mean "Blood Bath" and "Slaughter". If those same people were hunting 3 and had similar experiences of heavy hunting pressure and lack of game seen, they jump on the bandwagon that their suspicions that 'all the deer are dead' are true in their minds. Thus, the bitching on the internet and the writing of letters and the pressure put on the Region Managers to change seasons. You might have not meant it when you wrote the words, but many will indeed intreprete something entirely different. Back to the perception and reality conflict yet again. Thus the reason I am vocal about 'Reality'! As I like to keep people focused on it so we don't end up going down the same road the other Regions have gone done. And as a side note, I just had a letter sent to me that the GOABC is indeed pushing for further restrictions in the deer seasons in Region 5. Besides the battle of perception versus reality, there is the battle of personal agendas too!!!!

[Fred1]

This is a great thread! Some good thoughts going around. I have a question regarding "what people are seeing" in certain regions. I believe our deer populations are as strong as ever. Im out in the bush every day and I see them (mulies and whites) everywhere, I find where they sleep, shit and feed. So what I have noticed in the fall (in Region 8) is the deer become very nocturnal - I have gone out with the big lights to look. Yup there they are... Region 8 sees a lot of road hunting pressure - I mean where cant you drive a Volvo station wagon? Some days Ill see a dozen trucks go past where Im working - and that's all over the place! I still find all the fresh deer sign in the bush. Most people do not see in the dark. So I am thinking people do not see deer in the day while they hunt and come back with reports "there are no deer left on Zipper Mouth Ridge...." I have been going hunting several hours before light to get set up and catch the deer moving at first light. So my question is: do you guys think this is happening in other regions as well due to increased hunter traffic?

[Fred1]

wth? That should say region eight...

[jessbennett]

So why the restrictions?

your asking the wrong person here.... i didnt makes the rules. i just have to follow them... and since the rules have been put in place, the population has increased. theres way more deer. theres way more bucks. and theres way more mature bucks. living here and being out there EVERY day whether it be hunting, or work, the populations ARE definately higher.

been living here and hunting here for years, and the deer populations are through the roof. actually i think there is too many now. and this has all happened since the rut closures and changed season that took affect a few years back. so is it just coincidence that theres more deer since the changes? i dont think so.

[OutWest]

this is the dumbest thing i have heard in a while.
i take it you werent allowed to attend "sex ed" in school?? population is controlled by reproduction. if there is no bucks to breed the does, deer populations will not increase. ..........pretty simple stuff.

You're missing the "pretty simple stuff."

You don't need high buck:doe ratios for all of the does to be bred. Pretty simple stuff.

[HarryToolips]

This is a great thread! Some good thoughts going around. I have a question regarding "what people are seeing" in certain regions. I believe our deer populations are as strong as ever. Im out in the bush every day and I see them (mulies and whites) everywhere, I find where they sleep, shit and feed. So what I have noticed in the fall (in Region 8) is the deer become very nocturnal - I have gone out with the big lights to look. Yup there they are... Region 8 sees a lot of road hunting pressure - I mean where cant you drive a Volvo station wagon? Some days Ill see a dozen trucks go past where Im working - and that's all over the place! I still find all the fresh deer sign in the bush. Most people do not see in the dark. So I am thinking people do not see deer in the day while they hunt and come back with reports "there are no deer left on Zipper Mouth Ridge...." I have been going hunting several hours before light to get set up and catch the deer moving at first light. So my question is: do you guys think this is happening in other regions as well due to increased hunter traffic?

I agree..I live and do most of my bush time in reg 8 and both WT and mulies from mine and people I know observations, seem to have healthy numbers ...I used to think restricting the season's would help but thanks to many 'science' guys on this site, I understand the biology of it and we need to keep decently long seasons in place like most regions have now... it is too bad that the region 8 biologists decided to close 8-12 to 8-15 to the 'any buck' muly season as well as all of the Koots..also too bad they shortened the spike fork moose season as well, although maybe there is reason for that one:confused:

[dana]

Jessb,
Couldn't possibly have been a result of post-wolf boom eh? The peak of the dogs are over and the deer can now come out of the thick stuff and stop hiding!

[Bugle M In]

Don't no anything about region 5 but curious about the region 4 goat area you mention.
You say nobody else hunts it or applys for it so doesn't really matter if it is not LEH or not you still
get to hunt it every year.
You mention you have hunted it for 15 plus years, how many goats have you taken in that time
and of what sex and age. what have you observed in this time for an increase or decrease in population.
Are you only there for a couple weeks a year in the fall or do you watch the area through all the seasons of a year.
Thanks.

Only ever took 2, never hunted each year, but years in between.
other partner took 1 on one year as well.
All billies, ...I believe all were 3 years of age.
Other times I went up just for sheep, and never applied for the Goat tag, as I wasn't interested in harvesting another goat.
Saw larger billies at times, but I wasn't going to shoot something I couldn't retrieve.
Hunts mostly were 2 day ventures, as water is hard to find...and once it was gone, we left...no interest in packing water from half way back down.
Usually did these hunts when Elk was slow, as a back up.
So, I never applied for the tag yearly...but I always followed the results each year as to LEH success.
As far as memory serves....it never hit 1:1.....0.6:1 always seemed to be the fixed #...so it seemed.
I only shook my head because the LEH was necessary due to hunting pressure in a lot of areas....but other areas obviously were not suffering...by the results of applicants...my opinion.
As for goats...seen lots...lots of nannies and youngans.

at times you would have thought the hills were dead....until you figure out...goats don't always stay near the top of every mountain.
When it gets hot....they will adjust just fine in the shade with lots of trees half way back down the mountain.
Bad tunnel vision sometimes when you objective is to just get to the top...Some hills are a hard climb!

Always lived in the city, so 1 week a year I will travel up there.
Can't really asses if some years are up or some down...
Hunting is always different..each time
sometimes you can't help but trip on game...other times you can walk miles and nothing.
just like elk or mulie hunting.
Sometimes awesome....sometimes sucks...mostly in between.

Those days are over....back won't take it any more....
Plus , they really don't taste all that good.
Sheep...seen em...came close....and some biggies...but not successful ...one partner was though...years ago.
I'll never claim to be a goat pro...there are others here more suited for that....
But goats and sheep were of interest to me more so ...then say moose or whities or bears etc.
Elk was my passion...just happened to be in a location were there are good sheep and goat opportunities...so why not try?

The LEH was just a weird quirk as I said...as no one applied, so why LEH is all...atleast there.
Im fine if I am called cheap.:-D

[jessbennett]

Jessb,
Couldn't possibly have been a result of post-wolf boom eh? The peak of the dogs are over and the deer can now come out of the thick stuff and stop hiding!

well im sure that the drop in predators has helped as well, whether it be dogs, or hunters. being out in the bush daily though i have been seeing wolves just as much now as i did a few years ago though, and in some places even more. so, while i somewhat agree with what you are saying, i dont think its the only reason the deer population is up. the deer population is on the rise, theres more bucks running around, and there's alot of bigger bucks running around. like i said i don't think is just a coincidence that it started after they changed the regulations. while i dont think its the ONLY reason, i do think its definately ONE of them.

[jessbennett]

You're missing the "pretty simple stuff."

You don't need high buck:doe ratios for all of the does to be bred. Pretty simple stuff.

so a higher buck to doe ratio does not help AT ALL in does being bred???? c'mon......... more bucks to breed does = more bred does=increase in population...... a higher population in general creates more procreation. seriously what do you think is going to be more productive? 500 does with 3 bucks? or 500 does with 50 bucks? the chances are higher that with more bucks around, those same 500 does have a higher chance of being bred...

[OutWest]

so a higher buck to doe ratio does not help AT ALL in does being bred???? c'mon......... more bucks to breed does = more bred does=increase in population...... a higher population in general creates more procreation. seriously what do you think is going to be more productive? 500 does with 3 bucks? or 500 does with 50 bucks? the chances are higher that with more bucks around, those same 500 does have a higher chance of being bred...

Correct. A higher buck:doe ratio does nothing to create more deer when the ratio is at a threshold where all of the does are being bred already. 10:100 or 40:100 makes no difference, does only get pregnant once a year.

[Fred1]

so a higher buck to doe ratio does not help AT ALL in does being bred???? c'mon......... more bucks to breed does = more bred does=increase in population...... a higher population in general creates more procreation. seriously what do you think is going to be more productive? 500 does with 3 bucks? or 500 does with 50 bucks? the chances are higher that with more bucks around, those same 500 does have a higher chance of being bred...

I agree with the thinking, to a point. What IS the optimum buck to doe ratio? All things considered Ie competition for those does, post rut mortality, the carrying capacity of the landscape (winter ground being the most important). I don't think there is a shortage of bred does any where in BC, mulies or whites? I assume the fields north of the Rudy Jonson bridge still exhibit 200 plus mule deer in them this time of year? I hope so. What I would be more concerned about regarding lower buck to doe ratios is genetic diversities ie antler growth. Here in region 8 areas like the Private FSR have seen mulies antler growth pretty much stop at three points. I have seen several groups lead by two points late in the rut. I can show you areas where the dominant bucks are barely three points and they are aggressive! Give em a grunt and they come lookin for a fight! So again here we go around in the circle of what do we want to see in our deer populations? More bucks? More big antlered bucks? Just more deer? (I don't think that's a problem). I do think the 4 point or better is a chit regulation. The argument of "if we shoot the three points, there will be no 4 points" argument is crap. I have three major four points living right here within city limits, I know they are not here until late into the end of November. Until then the groups of mulie does are being lead by two the points. I believe Those bigger older bucks are sill around. Just like clock work they came down out of the hills after the first big snowfall. So who is doing the breeding? I think that percentage was answered in a previous post. So get out there hunt hard, hunt stuff where you think no one else is and shoot the one you want. I tell you what, remove the 4 point restriction and the deer population will not suffer and more guys will be pullin the trigger!

[Jelvis]

Fence off a big area that keeps the deer in. A hectre square high fenced during a ten day period in the November mule rut.
-- Put a five year old mule deer buck in there
-- Put two doe in heat
-- Put a yearling spike buck in there.
Now see how long the spike buck has to live or is severely wounded by sharp tines and big muscle.
Big bucks control the area, they live for the rut, this is their job to fulfill, their body is in super shape their coats sleek and shiny, antlers shooting out all over, the little spike in the fenced area is done like dinner.
The big buck will mount both of the does.
Same in the wild.
The doe is the one who chooses who she will stop walking for. She picks the bigger buck and stops.
A stud buck cannot mount a walking doe, if she likes the buck he's in luck, she stops and he starts.
Mule deer live by there senses they have no imagination. They lip curl. Humans have major ability to imagine.
Deer don't they go by sight, sound, sniffs and ground vibrations in the moment.
Jel -- Your in the know, your in the now. Ask yourself this simple question do humans lip curl? Hahaha lol.

[dana]

Jelly, if you were to understand the social dynamics of mule deer you will know that big ol' mature bucks accept young bucks around their harems all the time. The young bucks are tolerated and actually do the Foreplay required to get a doe to come into estrus. When that moment happens, he'll just push the small buck out of the way and get the job done. This allows him to tend multiple does at once without running himself ragged. It is the 3 to 4 year old bucks that pose a problem to the harem master. They are young and full of piss and vinegar and ready for a fight. They will challenge the master and he will have to defend his harem. While he is doing this, it is quite common that an old warrior will sneak on in and take one of his does without his knowledge as he is fighting off the young bucks. The old warrior doesn't have to fight just has to be sneaky. I have watched this scenario play out again and again over the years. Heck, last year I watched a 175 class buck dominate a mountain side as he pushed off all the challengers. Meanwhile he totally accepted several young forkeys. Several bucks that were actually bigger than him would pass by in a round about way just to avoid him. Every once and a while they would grab a unattended doe and push her up the mountain well away from the threat of the dominate 175er.

[Jelvis]

I've seen two points with a big heavy smart five point mule bucks but only just b4 the rut or post rut but never during the estrus cycle hot and heavy. These big bucks are frenetic, they are on a mission.
A two point or spike could not keep up to a five year old stud buck just following him during the peak rut.
Besides the small buck ain't getting any anyway. The burly brush buster, the ole moss back, the rusty old buck, big daddy, is going to be way too busy to have some wanna be spike hanging around during the two week peak.
If you go to a local bar in town here, you see the scene and how the evening goes, with deer, it's all about lip curls and smell. Scent pads, glands, urine, spit, hocks, in between the toes of the hoof.
People over think things that animals do the same each year through photo periodism. Deer are controlled by the amount of day light that enters their eyes each day a different length, but repeats itself year after year.
Breeding is not about first frost or not cold enuff, it's about amount of daylight in the eyes.
If you had a year with no frost, the deer would still breed.
Jelly PHD ( Animal Habitat/Behaviour) Mule Deer Gestation Specialist and Winter Range Prognosticator

[GoatGuy]

I've seen two points with a big heavy smart five point mule bucks but only just b4 the rut or post rut but never during the estrus cycle hot and heavy. These big bucks are frenetic, they are on a mission.
A two point or spike could not keep up to a five year old stud buck just following him during the peak rut.
Besides the small buck ain't getting any anyway. The burly brush buster, the ole moss back, the rusty old buck, big daddy, is going to be way too busy to have some wanna be spike hanging around during the two week peak.
If you go to a local bar in town here, you see the scene and how the evening goes, with deer, it's all about lip curls and smell. Scent pads, glands, urine, spit, hocks, in between the toes of the hoof.
People over think things that animals do the same each year through photo periodism. Deer are controlled by the amount of day light that enters their eyes each day a different length, but repeats itself year after year.
Breeding is not about first frost or not cold enuff, it's about amount of daylight in the eyes.
If you had a year with no frost, the deer would still breed.
Jelly PHD ( Animal Habitat/Behaviour) Mule Deer Gestation Specialist and Winter Range Prognosticator
Jelvis, please refrain from fiction. There are people who have a genuine interest in wildlife management and science. An educated hunter is a better hunter.

[Rob Chipman]

"Open country begins around Tatla Lake, when coming east.
Hwy 20.
-- Mule deer here.
Hwy 20 paved to Hanceville,..."

It's paved to Anahim, and when I drove it 6 weeks ago it was flooded with deer.

[Jelvis]

No different than a fight after school behind the back stop, some deer like to watch a fight between two bucks.
Bucks fight other bucks in their weight class, like boxers do.
They see a buck their same size in the rut in a breeding area and when push comes to shove, in 30 seconds one of them could be neck twisted to the ground and the buck gores the one on the canvas. If the other buck makes it out of the fight and can still walk, the winner escorts the loser out of his area.
Each four year old or older buck has a spot that he defends waiting for the migration through. Once the action begins with the arrival of female mule deer on the elevation he's set up on, he will be looking for estrus doe.
If a rival buck shows up to get a sniff, he get's stiffed, POW!. Know your roll and shut yer mouth. This homey buck ain't giving it up without a battle to the finach cuz he ate is spinach.
A two point or a small four will pass by with head down, won't stop either and won't even look the stud in the eye, as he pussy foots by for fear of retaliation. Showing respect like a younger weaker subordinate buck should.
The massive buck has rubbed trees along each boundary line of his designated area by scraping trees and urinating and rubbing the glands of his eyes on twigs. Licking low hanging limbs with his saliva so all the deer know it's Brutus's area. What's the message this buck is giving? "Better bugger off right now cuz you smelled my place and I'll rearrange your ugly face, I'll make an example out of your sorry ass. Now go and don't even think about coming back, understand, beat it." "And this is your only warning, next time, your dead meat!"
Jello -- Mule Deer Mem Wars -- True and original information on mule deer rut area of a mature muley buck.
I will allow you to use this or parts of for your final papers -- A+ material on the Rocky Mountain Mule Deer.

[Timbow]

your asking the wrong person here.... i didnt makes the rules. i just have to follow them... and since the rules have been put in place, the population has increased. theres way more deer. theres way more bucks. and theres way more mature bucks. living here and being out there EVERY day whether it be hunting, or work, the populations ARE definately higher.

been living here and hunting here for years, and the deer populations are through the roof. actually i think there is too many now. and this has all happened since the rut closures and changed season that took affect a few years back. so is it just coincidence that theres more deer since the changes? i dont think so.

Sounds like it's raining deer in the puddle area.

[Bugle M In]

okay Jelly...I'll bite:shock:

So...mr big daddy is all set up...in the zone, waiting for this little band of does to get all loosy.
Smaller bucks in the the vicinity, but without a chance....fair enough.
But wait a minute ...2 legged creature picks him off....only hours before do goes into heat....
Now What!!!!??????????
Does the doe put on a chastity belt??? waits for the next cycle???because next buck has ...should we say...less experience.???
In theory...My opinion...big boy does breeding...but nothing goes as planned.
Maybe that one report that a member posted may have some truth...some bucks losing their virginity a little sooner.
Hey...let's face it...some do get lucky, life doesn't go according to plan all the time.
But then again...sometimes the plan does work out.

I find it hard to believe that the big boys always win.....
I remember my buddy calling me he had just seen a large 4 pt chasing a big ol 3 pt.
I told him I was wathching a dinky crab claw mounting a doe not 200 yrds away...at that same time.
who knows...maybe crabclaw was just practising...???
Depends on how you look at a scenario I guess...only dna would prove who scored on the final exam!:mrgreen:
cheers.

[Jelvis]

Hey, if your hunting early morning and see a nice four chasing a doe and Bammo! Four point staggers and rolls down the snowy slope. You cut your tag, and wow, I got this big buck cuz he was going to breed that doe.
Wrong! That was a smaller buck then Mister Big laying up the hill behind some trees and in some rocky bluff with some yellow grass watching you go nuttier than a fruit cake. That was a sattalite buck, they hang around for a sniff but she's not ready yet, she runs away playing shy.
You could have two smaller bucks over yonder watching on a ridge, some other does standing around and the big buck is worrying the doe and she stands for him. The lip curl tells the buck when the time is at hand.
The big buster laying up the hill lip curling watching you gut out some loser buck that already got beat up bad.
By him. You got a decent 155 or 160 while the pure 200 was watching you.
Some does are hot and some have been bred and some are going into the estrus cycle at different times through the rut estrus period, from October 23 to November 4th most mature doe are bred. Then after that from Nov 5 to the 12th or so, the odd yearling doe goes into heat and these are next, than from the 13th on it's left overs that fell through the cracks. They will cycle over and over til some buck finally takes the time to do his job.
Jel .. Mule Deer Attitudes at all Latitudes with gratitude -- One big buck dies, another takes his place on the mtn face.

[Hunterguy]

I to am a believer that light does help with when it comes to heat cycles. Owning a huge breeding farm for horses we would have people wanting to bring their mares in to be bred. They did not want to spend the extra money to have the mare stay the 21 days. Mares also show false heats which is a problem for our studs as we would wear them out trying to bring them into a stronger heat. To cure that we had a couple of none breeding studs who were great teasers, gentle and so. Getting back to the false heats it will speed the process up with grow lights above the stall 24/7 and over the years we had a lot higher success on getting mares home sooner.

[J_T]

In my experience its the smaller bucks that do the breeding. That's exactly why the big bucks are big. They lounge around and eat all day and don't worry about flirting with the females. They just take care of their business getting more horny and fatter.

[Jelvis]

Big buck smell in rut drifts on the winds and get's rubbed off on grass and low hanging brush.
Bucks watch their back trail because predators follow the prey's trail from fresh to fresher.
Bucks that are big bodied and big antlered attract does like bears to honey.
Trouble is when the does seek him out they draw heat, in more ways then one.
The buck who lives long hides in dense thickets with cover tree limbs and rocks with old dead stumps with the yellow grass all in between during daylight hours. He comes out in the dark only during the rut.
He could be lying down and the hot doe smells is hocks from a mile away drifting along the wind current.
When the doe comes closer to the "Love Doctor" she is laying a trail for the predator to follow. But she is only here for one reason right now, a one night stand.
Now the coyotes or cougar or wild dogs follow her scent to the treasure, and see more does, and the buck has slipped over the edge of the steep rocky slope down inside the thick forest cover. Color him gone!
Jel . Please don't draw the heat with the things following you -- to me -- can't you see? The stud draws a crowd.
His wanna be posse

[J_T]

The big boy in the pub thinks he's got the best chub. Thinks he deserves all the action. But how much is show and how far will he go? Does he have any traction? Does he have the meat, does she want his beat? The young buck's got the fire, it ain't about the heat, it's about the desire. Who does she give in to? The one who thinks he's worth more than two? She'll go with the one, who dogs her till she's done. Young bucks rule. That's why you and I are no longer alpha's. Find your place and chew on the alfalfa.

[frenchbar]

jelvis for Premier...

[Jelvis]

You dint see any breeding cuz the deer breed at night bucko lol, the breeding is done after dark.
And migration is done in the black of night as well, don't need stage fright relax, your not an expert.
--- breeding and migration is done at night by mule deer.
--- after the dark has taken over ---
Jelco Delco -- Don't Sweat my Swag!

[Bugle M In]

jelvis for Premier...

Now that confirms it for me for sure ...I will now, never vote again:-D

[Jelvis]

MU 5-14
Riske Creek

Access to Mu 5-14 from Hwy 20 west of Riske Creek via the Riske Creek road system.
Fair mule deer hunting in here hunters, some moose.
Access from Meldrum Creek road also, from Hwy 20. Check legal distance to shoot from the roads you drive.
Mu 5-14