2 of 5 Actions Tested... Student's Choice?

[hare_assassin]

Quick question for the firearms handling portion of the CORE examination. The book states "2 of 5 actions".

My question is, does the student get to choose the 2 actions, or does the examiner?

In other words, does your 10-year-old kid have to be proficient at all 5 actions in order to have a chance at passing the CORE?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

They usually "draw" the choices of actions. Students need to know all actions and these should be covered in the course.

SSS

[hare_assassin]

They usually "draw" the choices of actions. Students need to know all actions and these should be covered in the course.

SSS

That's unfortunate. I guess my daughter will have to wait a few more years. There's no way she can safely work a full-sized lever action, semi, or pump.

[Chopper]

No ... at ten years old and a good mentor by her side, if she was failed , that would be BS

Were not trying to turn her lose with a gun here ... were trying to get her a buck

[quaint bucket]

instructor picks for you. that's how they did mine for my PAL. I got to skip the firearms portion for the CORE.

[hare_assassin]

No ... at ten years old and a good mentor by her side, if she was failed , that would be BS

Were not trying to turn her lose with a gun here ... were trying to get her a buck

Then she should be able to choose the actions. She's comfortable with youth-sized bolts and break-action, and that's all I'll ask her to use until she grows more.

If someone handed her anything else, she'd refuse to handle it, and I think that is for the best.

[hare_assassin]

instructor picks for you. that's how they did mine for my PAL. I got to skip the firearms portion for the CORE.

We aren't talking about PAL. We are talking about CORE.

I had to know all the actions for PAL, too. That makes sense, because I can go buy any action I want. I should be familiar with them all.

For my tiny daughter, I think it is stupid that the instructor can hand her any 2 of the 5 actions and she has to be able to safely operate them.

The only time she'll be handed those actions is during the test.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hmmmm....now you're testing my memory.
I had to draw for my PAL and "thought" my daughter also did the same for her CORE. Maybe she didn't?

No worries....stick her through the CORE. I'm sure she'll do fine. My daughter passed when she was 10.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Maybe they would be fine with her explaining and instructing someone how to use the actions and prove safe. I know some of those old pump actions need decent strength to operate. A good instructor would take this into account.

[hare_assassin]

Maybe they would be fine with her explaining and instructing someone how to use the actions and prove safe. I know some of those old pump actions need decent strength to operate. A good instructor would take this into account.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Lever actions pose the same issue. It takes some strength to operate them. She's strong for her age, but heck even I find a Marlin 336 a bit of a bitch to load rounds into. Then cycling the action takes a good firm snap of the arm, meanwhile maintaining full control of the muzzle. For a grown man, this is easy enough with some practice. For a small child, not so much.

So, what you are saying is that the instructor would use their best judgement to ensure the child is asked to operate guns that they could reasonably expected to operate safely?

This makes sense, of course, but common sense is less and less common all the time.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Lever actions pose the same issue. It takes some strength to operate them. She's strong for her age, but heck even I find a Marlin 336 a bit of a bitch to load rounds into. Then cycling the action takes a good firm snap of the arm, meanwhile maintaining full control of the muzzle. For a grown man, this is easy enough with some practice. For a small child, not so much.

So, what you are saying is that the instructor would use their best judgement to ensure the child is asked to operate guns that they could reasonably expected to operate safely?

This makes sense, of course, but common sense is less and less common all the time.

The instructor should be using their best judgement, but there are good ones and bad ones.

I still recall my CORE course when I got a 1 hour time out for saying "Don't point that $%#&ing gun at my face." The other student who pointed the gun at my face didn't get disciplined, but I did for letting a foul word slip out.

However, at my PAL course there were students that had very little experience with firearms, and the instructor did help a couple people when they froze up during the practical gun handling. He made sure they knew how it worked before leaving the course, but didn't fail them on the spot when they said they couldn't remember everything so they weren't comfortable working the action. That's the principle of it all, not doing anything unless you know it's safe.

[Ozone]

If she is to be tested on it, then they should teach her it. Any less is a failure on there part and if that's the reason she fails, I would ask for a refund.

[hare_assassin]

If she is to be tested on it, then they should teach her it. Any less is a failure on there part and if that's the reason she fails, I would ask for a refund.

That's a good way to look at it.

However, as a parent I'd like her to enter the course already prepared to pass. This is why I asked the question I did. I want to know just how much I need to push her to learn about actions she'll likely never use, and which will likely prove to be very difficult to physically operate at her age.

[Island Idiots]

I have been a core instructor in the past. Students should know how all the different actions work. The instructor will say,
Please pick up a lever action firearm. Thats how I did it and how it was taught to me. Its about firearm safety. Every CORE graduate should be able to make safe any firearm they come across. Period.

[albravo2]

Am I missing or forgetting something? Why not just get her a youth hunting license and she can hunt off your tags? She only needs her CORE to get a hunter number and a full hunting license with LEH privileges.

[hare_assassin]

She only needs her CORE to get a hunter number and a full hunting license with LEH privileges.

And that's what she wants.

[hare_assassin]

Every CORE graduate should be able to make safe any firearm they come across. Period.

I disagree. Every PAL or POL licensee should be expected to do so, but to require that from every CORE graduate is excessive, IMO.

Safely operating a firearm, in general terms, is far more important than one's ability to work an action that they a) have no intention of using, and/or b) have great difficulty using.

10 is the minimum age to get a hunter number. Is it reasonable to expect 10-year-olds to be proficient with all 5 actions?

If so, then I guess she has to wait till she is older/bigger.

[Barracuda]

What LEH was your ten year old daughter thinking of?

Given enough time and training and if it is important to her she should have no problem working the action on any firearm used in the core test , even if she is small she should be able to do it.
Until then I am sure like most kids that she would be happy hunting off of your tags with her youth license for big game and DBL for small game .

[snow]

I disagree. Every PAL or POL licensee should be expected to do so, but to require that from every CORE graduate is excessive, IMO.

Safely operating a firearm, in general terms, is far more important than one's ability to work an action that they a) have no intention of using, and/or b) have great difficulty using.

10 is the minimum age to get a hunter number. Is it reasonable to expect 10-year-olds to be proficient with all 5 actions?

If so, then I guess she has to wait till she is older/bigger.

All 5 actions will be there to practice with (even during course breaks) and the instructor will go over each action. Are you concerned about your daughter's size and strength or why would not she be able to learn all 5 actions if she can learn 2??
Which actions will be on the practical exam depends on the instructor completely. They might even ask her conversationally what game she wants to hunt and with what gun, and then might ask her to pick up that gun/action for the exam from the 5 that will be on the table.

[hare_assassin]

What LEH was your ten year old daughter thinking of?

Antlerless mule deer, for starters.


Given enough time and training and if it is important to her she should have no problem working the action on any firearm used in the core test , even if she is small she should be able to do it.
Until then I am sure like most kids that she would be happy hunting off of your tags with her youth license for big game and DBL for small game .

All of this implies that I now need to go out and buy a lever, pump, and a semi-auto (all in kid-size), so she can practice using all of these actions. Not going to happen.

[hare_assassin]

All 5 actions will be there to practice with (even during course breaks) and the instructor will go over each action. Are you concerned about your daughter's size and strength or why would not she be able to learn all 5 actions if she can learn 2??

The strength required to work a bolt or break-action is far less, and they make kid-sized guns in these actions. Pretty straight-forward.

She's very small for her age, despite being very, very strong. It is a matter of proportion. Even "youth" guns are on the big side, for her.

Despite that, I know a lot of other 10-year-olds and I can't think of one of them who has the size and strength to be able to work a full-sized pump shotgun or lever action in a safe manner.


Which actions will be on the practical exam depends on the instructor completely. They might even ask her conversationally what game she wants to hunt and with what gun, and then might ask her to pick up that gun/action for the exam from the 5 that will be on the table.

If that's the case she would choose bolt and break, and be done with it. Based on this thread, that's not the case.

[Barracuda]

kid sizes most likely wont be used in a test so getting them might not be the best way to go.
A semi auto , pump , break , bolt action and a lever of some type shouldn't be that hard to find and when she takes the CORE she will have access to them in the course so she can practice with them. on a side note I have had break actions where you would need a Wrestlers thumb to open them

[snow]

The strength required to work a bolt or break-action is far less, and they make kid-sized guns in these actions. Pretty straight-forward.

She's very small for her age, despite being very, very strong. It is a matter of proportion. Even "youth" guns are on the big side, for her.

Despite that, I know a lot of other 10-year-olds and I can't think of one of them who has the size and strength to be able to work a full-sized pump shotgun or lever action in a safe manner.



If that's the case she would choose bolt and break, and be done with it. Based on this thread, that's not the case.

During the exam they asked me what kind of gun I would get/purchase for hunting, and I said bolt, so then they asked me to pick up a bolt from there a prove it... but that was in my case. Same thing could happen to your daughter, but you can't rely on that, in any case she must know all 5 and she cannot choose which ones she would be asked to prove during the exam.

[Barracuda]

by that an examiner can also ask what type of action you are used to and if you say bolt and pump they could choose break open and lever.

you could always ask your examiner what firearms they use for the testing that way you know if its a full size or small frame youth firearms

[hare_assassin]

I'll simply have to tell her that she'll need to wait a few years.

Thanks all.

[kurtl]

I just did my CORE in February and the instructor picked the action for you to handle and be tested on, although you will need some knowledge of all action types and the different ammunitions. You can ask the instructor questions about handling a firearm safely, just as if you are hunting with a friend and they handed a firearm to you that you weren't familiar with. This is showing that you are safe and cautious and are asking for help to be safe and that's what they are looking for (pretty much what our instructor told us). If for some reason she can't actually operate the action I don't think it would matter as long as she could explain how to ACTS and PROVE the firearm and carry it safely, because they do quiz you on that too (i.e. fence crossing).

I did the CORE first and challenged the PAL after, but that was backwards. If I was to recommend anything it would be to do the firearms safety course first, and then do the CORE after that way you only have to do the gun handling once. If you do the CORE first like I did, you have to do the gun handling at the CORE course and then again at the Firearms course (and I had the same instructor and it was only a couple of days later). She would have to apply for the minors license. It says on the RCMP site: "Generally, the minimum age is 12 years, but exceptions may be made for younger people who need to hunt to sustain themselves and their families. Applicants must have taken the Canadian Firearms Safety Course and passed the test."

At least if she had the same instructor for this course and the CORE class they might not re-test as she's already shown competence with firearms. The people at my CORE course that got to skip the gun handling part actually had to show their PAL, so you might be have to check with an instructor about this in case she doesn't actually get her minors license.

[Ozone]

I'll simply have to tell her that she'll need to wait a few years.

Thanks all.

Its better to try and fail, than never try at all. You seem to have it predetermined which action the tester will choose.

Personally I don't understand why the handling part is on the test. Isn't that for the firearms safety course?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'll simply have to tell her that she'll need to wait a few years.

Thanks all.

My daughter passed at 10 and I'm sure yours can too!

SSS

[hare_assassin]

I just did my CORE in February and the instructor picked the action for you to handle and be tested on, although you will need some knowledge of all action types and the different ammunitions. You can ask the instructor questions about handling a firearm safely, just as if you are hunting with a friend and they handed a firearm to you that you weren't familiar with. This is showing that you are safe and cautious and are asking for help to be safe and that's what they are looking for (pretty much what our instructor told us). If for some reason she can't actually operate the action I don't think it would matter as long as she could explain how to ACTS and PROVE the firearm and carry it safely, because they do quiz you on that too (i.e. fence crossing).

I did the CORE first and challenged the PAL after, but that was backwards. If I was to recommend anything it would be to do the firearms safety course first, and then do the CORE after that way you only have to do the gun handling once. If you do the CORE first like I did, you have to do the gun handling at the CORE course and then again at the Firearms course (and I had the same instructor and it was only a couple of days later). She would have to apply for the minors license. It says on the RCMP site: "Generally, the minimum age is 12 years, but exceptions may be made for younger people who need to hunt to sustain themselves and their families. Applicants must have taken the Canadian Firearms Safety Course and passed the test."

At least if she had the same instructor for this course and the CORE class they might not re-test as she's already shown competence with firearms. The people at my CORE course that got to skip the gun handling part actually had to show their PAL, so you might be have to check with an instructor about this in case she doesn't actually get her minors license.

Thanks for the feedback. I was aware that a PAL covers the gun handling requirements of CORE, but I am also aware that good working knowledge and physical ability to operate all actions is necessary for PAL. I do not think all of that should be necessary for a kid to go shoot their own bag limit of hares with a .22 bolt or take their first deer with a single-shot .243. I could have my daughter practice the entire summer with the .243, get her to the point where she is ready to nail anything within 100 yards, but then have her denied hunting opportunities because she can't load/unload/PROVE a 12GA pump and/or an SKS.

Seems out of touch with reality. But perhaps it's just me.

[hare_assassin]

Its better to try and fail, than never try at all. You seem to have it predetermined which action the tester will choose.

Personally I don't understand why the handling part is on the test. Isn't that for the firearms safety course?

Based on the vast majority of responses here, she is expected to know and be able to operate all 5 actions. It will take quite some time before she is ready for that.

Encouraging a child is one thing; setting them up for failure is another.

It's no big deal. She'll just have to wait.

[snow]

i think the examiners are nice people just like we are :-) and they would not let your daughter fail esp. if they see she has been trying to learn about those guns. they care about safety, not about the ability to load a gun or open/close the action (i think). when i took the course most of the guns were very old with seriously worn out and stiff actions, but it was enough to kind of demonstrate what you would do to prove the firearm.
hopefully a core instructor can advise here.

[Foxton Gundogs]

That's unfortunate. I guess my daughter will have to wait a few more years. There's no way she can safely work a full-sized lever action, semi, or pump.

She probably couldn't handle a full size P14 Enfield or a Stevens 12 ga double with 30" barrels either. There are 'kid size' leavers, pumps and semi autos as well as bolts and breaks that she can learn to handle safely. I'm sure the instructor isn't going to give her a gun she can't keep both ends of off the ground at the same time.

[hare_assassin]

She probably couldn't handle a full size P14 Enfield or a Stevens 12 ga double with 30" barrels either. There are 'kid size' leavers, pumps and semi autos as well as bolts and breaks that she can learn to handle safely. I'm sure the instructor isn't going to give her a gun she can't keep both ends of off the ground at the same time.

Well, I guess I need to re-mortgage my house so I can go out and buy all those kid-sized guns, and then pray that you are right that the instructor will have an array of disabled, kid-sized guns for her to be tested on.

Or, just wait a couple years.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Well, I guess I need to re-mortgage my house so I can go out and buy all those kid-sized guns, and then pray that you are right that the instructor will have an array of disabled, kid-sized guns for her to be tested on.

Or, just wait a couple years.

OR go to the local gun store I'm sure if you explain your situation they will let he handle them, try your local gun club as well there are probably good people around that will help you out remember she's taking the COURSE not challenging the test so she will be instructed. My point was there are guns of all actions and configerations that are to big for a child to handle, they are not going to give her something she can't safely handle no need to get snarky.

[hare_assassin]

OR go to the local gun store I'm sure if you explain your situation they will let he handle them, try your local gun club as well there are probably good people around that will help you out remember she's taking the COURSE not challenging the test so she will be instructed. My point was there are guns of all actions and configerations that are to big for a child to handle, they are not going to give her something she can't safely handle no need to get snarky.

Didn't mean to be snarky. Just being realistic. As I said earlier, even most "youth" guns are too big for her. The Savage Rascal fit's her perfectly. If there are guns of all action types in that size then my google skills really suck, because I can't find them.

[Foxton Gundogs]

They make a very small 410 pump(sorry not sure who the mfg is), Henry makes a youth lever gun my friends 7 yr old is shooting both and he's not a big kid, and there are a number of youth semi 22s. BUT as I said she is taking the course so she will be taught on appropriate guns no instructor is going to try to make a kid handle something to big for them, or set them up to fail. Call the instructor and ask state your concerns get it from the horses mouth but don't write your kid off because you THINK she may fail.

[Island Idiots]

I disagree. Every PAL or POL licensee should be expected to do so, but to require that from every CORE graduate is excessive, IMO.

Safely operating a firearm, in general terms, is far more important than one's ability to work an action that they a) have no intention of using, and/or b) have great difficulty using.

10 is the minimum age to get a hunter number. Is it reasonable to expect 10-year-olds to be proficient with all 5 actions?

If so, then I guess she has to wait till she is older/bigger.

You can disagree but the regulations are the regulations. It should be noted that in the course of my duties as an instructor, if an individual attempted to priove the firearm, and couldnt say move the action release, but tried to, I would acknowledge that they attempted to do the right thing and assisted them in pushing the release if they were not strong enough.
I agree that it shouldn't be the instructors duty to prevent success in the testing. If the tester did all the right things but couldnt work parts of the action because of strength issues or even for older folks if it was dexterity, as long as the individual looked for the safety or the release and attempted to do the right thing, they passed.
I would suggest you have that conversation with the instructor before hand. Let your daughter test. Physical ability should not stand in the way of success.
My comments were regarding knowledge of how to make firearms safe, not neccessarily the physical ability to do so.
Cheers, I.I.

[hare_assassin]

You can disagree but the regulations are the regulations. It should be noted that in the course of my duties as an instructor, if an individual attempted to priove the firearm, and couldnt say move the action release, but tried to, I would acknowledge that they attempted to do the right thing and assisted them in pushing the release if they were not strong enough.
I agree that it shouldn't be the instructors duty to prevent success in the testing. If the tester did all the right things but couldnt work parts of the action because of strength issues or even for older folks if it was dexterity, as long as the individual looked for the safety or the release and attempted to do the right thing, they passed.
I would suggest you have that conversation with the instructor before hand. Let your daughter test. Physical ability should not stand in the way of success.
My comments were regarding knowledge of how to make firearms safe, not neccessarily the physical ability to do so.
Cheers, I.I.

I appreciate your perspective as an instructor on this.

[Phoneguy]

Got to remember, as instructors we have to provide decommissioned fire arms. That means either buying already decommissioned, or getting others decommissioned. That is not cheap. Unfortunately, smaller, youth sized guns are not often decommissioned! And what has been decommissioned has done its time, is well used and or abused..

James

[hare_assassin]

Got to remember, as instructors we have to provide decommissioned fire arms. That means either buying already decommissioned, or getting others decommissioned. That is not cheap. Unfortunately, smaller, youth sized guns are not often decommissioned! And what has been decommissioned has done its time, is well used and or abused..

James

Exactly what I figured. Which is why I am concerned that she will have difficulty physically operating full-sized guns during a test.

Apparently this will be taken into account, rather than be used as a reason to fail her. We'll have to see how it goes, I guess.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Nothing wrong with being "optimistic".....but in reality, I too, was more worried than my daughter. A parent's nature I guess?

She'll be fine.

SSS

[hare_assassin]

There's a course available locally in about 10 days. I'll have to see if she feels like going for it.

The prospect of being able to enter this year's LEH might give her even more motivation.

Thanks to all. I'll be sure to post back with an update...