Any reports from Special Antlerless season?

[wetcoaster]

I have been watching for reports back from anyone who headed up to participate in the emergency antlerless season but there is nadda. Anyone participate?

[Tinney]

ianwuzhere is up there right now with intent to take down 4 does. Buddies on mine went up with their 4 elk draws, took 4 elk and 2 muley DOES (neither pregnant...which I thought was weird). I scrapped my plans because of timing. I'd rather fish than hunt 8)

[wetcoaster]

Funny just two deer between a number of guys? I am guessing the success rate will be incredible. Anyone else head out?

[Tinney]

4 guys shot 4 elk and 2 deer....how much meat does a guy need?

[Mr. Dean]

We better git em. If we don't then the Allocations are going to shift over!

Correction..........We get priority of a minimum of 98% of antlerless.
My appology's

There should be something posted somewhere. Hunters were reguired to report these kills.

[Mini_Me]

My neighbour just came back he had 8 does.

[Rainwater]

8 Does, Thats Sick!

[sealevel]

what are you going to do with 8 skinny does . gotta be pretty lousy eating

[Tinney]

Rainwater, do you ever say anything useful?

[todbartell]

skinny? they've been eatin hay since October :lol:

[greybark]

:lol: AHHHH Tinny , New name same old attitude .

[Sideofabarn]

Dude, shouldn't you be out fishing?

[Tinney]

Tomorrow morning. There is no way I'm coming back alive :lol:

[sealevel]

skinny? they've been eatin hay since October :lol: you think a deer will stay fat on hay all winter.

[todbartell]

if they got food, they aint starvin'

maybe the guy had 8 road kills :lol:

[greybark]

[quote=Tinney]Not really. Morons still annoy me. But I just don't care as much about what goes on here.[/quote

:lol: AHHHH Tiny , New name same old attitude

[Sideofabarn]

Are you still doing the camp thing? How far out are you heading? And no, I'm not asking you to give up lake names...

[Tinney]

Going about 40km down the Holy Cross (South from Fraser Lake). Staying until friday if all goes well.

Hey greybark....shut up :lol:

[Browningmirage]

its nice to have purpose

[CHilko21]

I'm debating whether or not to head up on friday. My brother has an elk draw so he's going. Was gonna go to a jackpot cattle sorting but my riding partner is grounded with a bad back for a couple weeks now, so I dunno if I wanna head there without her. Besides, I need to get some more hunting in, I've been busy as S:eek::eek::eek: for the last couple months.

[Browningmirage]

being busy is good...unless it gets in the way of hunting and fishing. Im sure tinney agrees

[CHilko21]

Yeah, busy is good, better than being bored. But I think it's time for a little change of pace. I got called into work all this week, so I may as well escape when I can...I can't get called in if I'm not only out of cell service but also out of town now can I???

[bsa30-06]

My neighbour just came back he had 8 does.

Thats 6 more then he's allowed. I hope you mean him and his partners came back with 8 does.Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe the limit is 2.

[Hank Hunter]

Chilko, GO ELK HUNTING. work will still be there when you get back.

[Rainwater]

Conservation, ethics and all that stuff people used to do Tinney, there I said something usefull.

[Tinney]

Ethics are personal Rainwater. Yours may not match mine. But you might be closer than you think.

[Gateholio]

Tinney, try making your point without the name calling, please. Name calling makes people look childish.

[harder rd]

I am out of the loop can any one tell me more about this doe season. I am not much on shooting does myself ,but I do feel that it is some thing that we have to do some times .

[luckynuts]

Harder road? if it's the same Harder rd i'm thinking there's plenty of deer there to shoot if you have permision.

As for deer report haven't seen to many hunters out but with all the new snow and lower temperatures, just get out of your truck walk up to the starvin deer laying in the ditch cut it's throat and throw it in your truck. Pretty pathetic right now.

W.

[boxhitch]

all the new snow and lower temperatures, just get out of your truck walk up to the starvin deer laying in the ditch cut it's throat and throw it in your truck. Pretty pathetic right now.

W.
Serious ? you're suggesting a severe die-off ? Other locals don't feel it is too bad. ??

[willyqbc]

a fellow we know up there is friends with the bio....they are definately predicting heavy die-off, especially the young ones. For those of you who say this is a "typical winter" up there, guess again.... from personal experience I can tell you that there is waist deep snow up there right now...that alone is not the problem, about 1/2 way down in the snow there is a frozen crust so thick it would hold me up most of the time...I'm close to 300#'s. When we were there, the deer were not in the fields at all, they were all up on the wind scoured hillsides in the river breaks. Now for those of you who protest shooting deer when their is a die-off predicted.....if you have 2 deer and enough food for only one of them, if they both are trying to survive the strong one will not win out and survive.... the weak one will take enough food that they will both die. From what we can gather the bio was wanting the yearlings taken...not sure why they didn't request that in the notice though. With that in mind my partner and I took one nice young one each. Could have filled all tags but one each served our needs.

Chris

[wetcoaster]

I am out of the loop can any one tell me more about this doe season. I am not much on shooting does myself ,but I do feel that it is some thing that we have to do some times .

harder rd,

It is an antlerless season: translation not just a doe season it includes bucks that have dropped antlers. It is obviously a meat hunt that the province has called on an emergency basis due to agricultural conflict in region 7b.

here is a link to the press release on this site:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=10230&highlight=antlerless

(edited to add the link)

[wetcoaster]

I have been toying with the idea of heading up if I can just get ahead of work a bit. I could use some more meat in the freezer and deer hunting in February and March is a nice bonus as far as I am concerned.

Keep the reports coming thanks guys.

[luckynuts]

Well boxhitch just from my experience a lot of deer are starting to show ribs. The deer no longer run away from you. At one location there were 4 does and 4 yearlings hanging around an old bale and the yearlings were getting run off it by the does. I mean the does were standing up kicking them not letting them come in to feed. The best time to see herds of deer is just after the snowplow drives by, they come out in droves to scratch at the grass turn up by the plow along the ditches. It's funny a month ago i thought this antlerless season couldn't hurt the deer and that it might help a bit, I think I am way wrong. Oh well I guess time will tell.

W.

[GoatGuy]

They want the population cut down by 50% in the coming years. You'll probably see muley does go to a GOS. Too many deer!

My fav bio's retiring in May - I'm throwing a party!!! Feel sorry for the poor suckers that are going to takeover and have to clean up the mess..........

[harder rd]

thanks wetcoaster that was the info that I was looking for .thanks again for brining me up to speed.

[dana]

"They want the population cut down by 50% in the coming years."

So there goes any trophy potential right down the shitter eh? :mad:

[Derek_Erickson]

Dana's on to something

[Rainwater]

WillyQ. So you took two nice young ones, the way things are being described the deer should look emaciated and the marrow in the bones will not look normal. Still don't agree with it but would like to see some pics of starving deer please.

[oldtimer]

Gatehouse , thanks for shutting that kid up. He is most annoying isn't he ?? Mike
P.S. as I plan on sharing some of WillyQ's deer I will let you know as to the taste.

[boxhitch]

So there goes any trophy potential right down the shitter eh?
Shows there is more to be concerned about than trophies.

[dana]

Yea, 50% of the deer herd!!!!! Geeze, sounds like good management. All because some farmers are having a hard time during a drought. Sure hope that other bios in other regions don't catch on to this 'great management tool'.

[Rainwater]

Luckynuts, I watch deer kicking at each other (whities especially) during the year all the time. Please someone post some pics of some starving deer so we all know it's a die-off and not just political posturing for the farmers, Thank you!

[Browningmirage]

there may be something else happening here too.

Havent read all the posts thoroughly, but apparently if a doe is shot, its head has to be turned in for CWD testing. This could be due to the previous management policies which managed for high deer densities. Ive read a bunch of journals on the topic, and have picked up stuff from classes and such, but CWD manifests faster in higher populations (makes sense). Could be a high die off, or it could be that they are checking for something bigger, or both. By saying its a cull, they can test without worrying the public. Either way, by killing off animals, the speed at which CWD moves is slowed down. Mad cow occurs randomly in cattle, i cant see why CWD cant occur randomly in deer.

[dana]

CWD also seems to rear it's ugly head around game ranches, which we don't have in BC. BC is no where near high densities. Heck, look at states like Utah which are way way smaller than BC yet have ten times the deer and they are whinning that deer populations are at an all time low.

[CHilko21]

Chilko, GO ELK HUNTING. work will still be there when you get back.

Yeah...it'll still be there while I go sheep and moose and cariboo and wolf and coyote and bear and cougar and mulie and whitetail and my personal favorite, the neighbor's dog (kidding, kidding..maybe:lol:) hunting, but the piles will sure be big by the time I get back.....and I'll be broke long before then!

[elkguide]

I'm debating whether or not to head up on friday. My brother has an elk draw so he's going. Was gonna go to a jackpot cattle sorting but my riding partner is grounded with a bad back for a couple weeks now, so I dunno if I wanna head there without her. Besides, I need to get some more hunting in, I've been busy as S:eek::eek::eek: for the last couple months. never turn down an elk hunt.....work can wait....somethings are just more important....like family and elk.:lol:

[CHilko21]

never turn down an elk hunt.....work can wait....somethings are just more important....like family and elk.:lol:

Oh I totally agree....working til thursday....leaving on friday:)

[elkguide]

Oh I totally agree....working til thursday....leaving on friday:) go8-)d luck and shoot straight! We all expect pics when you get back.:lol:

[boxhitch]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wild/hunting/pdf/ib_070206_muledeerhunt.pdf
No mention of any check-in of deer heads, or any other parts, for that matter.
I hate rumours

[3kills]

boxhitch it was posted on here that one of the guys was talkin to the bios or co's and they had asked them to bring them in..and one of the guys on here that had gone up there took the heads in to be inspected...

[J_T]

There is a CWD program running in the East Kootenay. The contract is with the TBBC. Anyone finding a whitetail (dead) can turn the head in for $25. In the EK, there is no evidence that CWD has moved up from the states at this point.

JT

I agree with Oldtimer, thanks for moving Tinney off to something else.

[scuba]

you don't have to turn in the heads but they asked if they weren't shot in the head and you are in the area to bring them in.

[boxhitch]

boxhitch it was posted on here that one of the guys was talkin to the bios or co's and they had asked them to bring them in.
Well now, that clears it up. I should have known to check on HBC, instead of the Gov't of BC site. My Bad :roll:
So what else has been said/reported/released/rumoured about CWD in BC ?? If nothing, then lets keep it that way. We have enough trouble as it is.

[sealevel]

Well said Boxhitch

[Browningmirage]

Well now, that clears it up. I should have known to check on HBC, instead of the Gov't of BC site. My Bad :roll:
So what else has been said/reported/released/rumoured about CWD in BC ?? If nothing, then lets keep it that way. We have enough trouble as it is.

Well i dont know dude
We may have enough trouble as it is, but i would most certainly like to know if it was happening. It makes sense to me to be checking if things have been managed the way they have been up there. if for nothing at least just to check

[GoatGuy]

"They want the population cut down by 50% in the coming years."

So there goes any trophy potential right down the shitter eh? :mad:

Any facts to back that up?

I'm sure you've noticed the caliber of muley bucks the Sandhills of Sask has been producing (before the CWD cull) and the entire time they've been basically giving doe draws away to anyone who applies for eons.

My guess: You're stirring the pot!:lol:

[dana]

Goatguy,
One word, UTAH!!! Used to be the mecca of trophy mule deer, now it is worse than WA. Why???? Too many deer are being killed.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy,
One word, UTAH!!! Used to be the mecca of trophy mule deer, now it is worse than WA. Why???? Too many deer are being killed.

Come on, you gotta have something better than that?

[dana]

Actually, have you seen the trophy quality of Sask in the CWD units? I know some serious hard-core muley nuts that can give you a crapload of info on how that drastically affects trophy quality.

[GoatGuy]

Actually, have you seen the trophy quality of Sask in the CWD units? I know some serious hard-core muley nuts that can give you a crapload of info on how that drastically affects trophy quality.

Now it has but before the CWD hunts they had doe draws that you could get every year and it was producing whopper bucks.

[boxhitch]

Well i dont know dude
We may have enough trouble as it is, but i would most certainly like to know if it was happening. It makes sense to me to be checking if things have been managed the way they have been up there. if for nothing at least just to check
Agreed, but to use an open forum to create hyperbole is a poor research method. Lets get the facts.

[dana]

Goatguy,
Common, comparing LEH doe hunts to open general season on ALL deer (bucks, does, and fawns) in Feb when the deer are hurting the worst??????

[Browningmirage]

Agreed, but to use an open forum to create hyperbole is a poor research method. Lets get the facts.

doood, i dont understand where i went wrong...how did i create an extravagant exageration from saying that CWD could be manifesting (which just means make an appearance) in 7b? I understand its poor research, so i have been reading, and guess what...mad cow can appear in high populations randomly, why cant it in deer?

[oldtimer]

Well tonite I helped butcher 2 of the animals from this hunt and everyone was in agreement that they would both have trouble surviving this winter. ZERO FAT reserves. VERY VERY lean meat, as stated earlier I will let you know about the quality ( taste ) Mike

[wetcoaster]

Thanks oldtimer! I'll be watching for your report back on the quality when they make it to the table. This was exactly the kind of report I was hoping for. I hope it was an enjoyable hunt and the deer make good table fare. Were they both does, yearling bucks etc.?

[GoatGuy]

Well tonite I helped butcher 2 of the animals from this hunt and everyone was in agreement that they would both have trouble surviving this winter. ZERO FAT reserves. VERY VERY lean meat, as stated earlier I will let you know about the quality ( taste ) Mike

Any bone marrow discolouration???

[Rainwater]

Why are we talking about CWD on a hunt designed to kill deer on behalf of farmers who won't fence off their stacks. No CWD evidence is required as the Ministry was pretty explicit on WHY this hunt occured. Lets just hope there is no CWD. It sounds like this post has gone sideways and that's usually my job.

[Gateholio]

. It sounds like this post has gone sideways and that's usually my job.

yeah, so will you please get on with it? You've been slacking lately.

[Marc]

Just deleted 38 post of name calling and nothing related to the subject of the thread.

Oh and Tinney got a two week time out for consistently calling other members names.

Lets keep it to the subject...

[boxhitch]

No CWD evidence is required as the Ministry was pretty explicit on WHY this hunt occured
Missed that detail....Was there a MOE staement ?

It sounds like this post has gone sideways and that's usually my job.
Sorry to steal your thunder, Runoff. :)

[Rainwater]

Rainwater, Hoxbitch!

[Gateholio]

Now that the name caling has been done..was there a MOE statement describing *why* this hunt ocurred?

Hay?

Overpopulation?

CWD?

facts, please.

Please?

[GoatGuy]

Now that the name caling has been done..was there a MOE statement describing *why* this hunt ocurred?

Hay?

Overpopulation?



Both, straight from the fella who's set it up. Got the numbers at home. $$ loss for farmers and they want to cut the pop down by 50% in the next couple years.

They're worried they're gonna have a die-off

[Rainwater]

Goatguy, The memo from Andy says "agricultural conflicts", overpopulation was not mentioned in the letter so I guess we would have to assume that the farmers are the ones who feel the deer are overpopulated. On another note I was told last night (grain of salt here) that the farmers up there were given money to fence??? Anyone know this?

[Tank]

On another note I was told last night (grain of salt here) that the farmers up there were given money to fence??? Anyone know this?

It would have to be a pretty serious fence to make a difference!

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy, The memo from Andy says "agricultural conflicts", overpopulation was not mentioned in the letter so I guess we would have to assume that the farmers are the ones who feel the deer are overpopulated. On another note I was told last night (grain of salt here) that the farmers up there were given money to fence??? Anyone know this?


As posted before


Hungry ungulates forced into farm hay supplies by record snowfalls

By Carol van de Bon
FORT ST JOHN – While the Fish and Wildlife Branch of the B.C. Ministry of Environment in Fort St. John says there is no quick fix, Peace region farmers are dealing with high numbers of elk, moose and deer populations eating a limited winter hay supply.
After a summer drought, many Peace region farmers have either sold some of their cow herd to match their hay supply, or bought and transported hay from outside the area. Moose, elk and deer finding it hard to forage after November’s record snowfall amounts are discovering these farmers’ haystacks are easily accessible.
George Gieni, a cattle farmer situated along the Upper Half Way River, 80 miles due north of Fort St. John, is at his wit’s end dealing with 100 elk dining on his winter hay supply. After harvesting one third of his normal hay crop, and with no bales normally left over from the year before, Gieni purchased hay bales at $55 each. During the extreme cold snap of November, 40 bales – a quarter of his hay supply – were consumed by elk. Gieni says that he will be out of feed by February.
“This is why I have to get rid of most of my animals, because I don’t have enough feed.”
Numbers of deer are at an all time high in the Peace region, notes Andy Ackerman, regional manager for Environmental Protection of Fish and Wildlife, Fort St. John. A study last spring on North and South Peace agriculture land counted 15,000 mule deer. A whitetail deer study is ongoing.
Ackerman notes, “The elk population has increased significantly, also.” The past few years of mild winters, good natural forage feed and the Peace region’s prime farm land are contributing to high numbers of ungulates. Ackerman notes that in a normal number of two or three severe winters, half of the deer herd would die off naturally.
Gieni is desperately looking for solutions to his elk problem. He has rented a propane cannon from Fish and Wildlife (“which lasted one night”), encouraged hunters onto his property, flashed bright lights, loud radios, rifle shots in the air, used the smell of dead animal carcasses, all to no avail.
“They adapt so quickly to things,” he says.
Another North Peace farmer nervously watching his hay supply is Paul Cowger, who farms 15 km northwest of Fort St. John. Cowger has up to 27 elk, numerous moose and deer grazing on his pastures. Approximately 15 deer are feeding off his hay stack, along with five moose and their calves.
“Hopefully with my fingers crossed there’s enough (hay) to get by,” he says. Cowger pastures his 120 to 150 brood cows and calves on his own land year round. For a game or stack fence to be effective for his situation, Cowger would have to fence all his pasture land. Cowger wants to see hunting season increased, and would like to see government assistance for farmers to fence hay stacks. “Maybe I’m wrong in looking at it, but why should a taxpayer build a fence for me when Fish and Wildlife probably has other avenues to help the landowners take care of these animals.
“We need more collaboration from our Fish and Wildlife people, and it’s got to be serious help, not just listening,” notes Cowger.
Ackerman says the Fish and Wildlife branch in Fort St. John does has various programs to help farmers save their winter feed.
“We have extended our hunting seasons out. The limited entry season this year has been extended by almost two thirds, so we’re at 3,200 permits for doe deer.” Ackerman notes one program that farmers can be listed on is for hunters interested in cow elk season from December 1 to the end of February.
“We’re possibly looking at changing the limited entry to an open season for doe deer, possible doing the same thing for cow elk, although we haven’t finalized anything yet. We looking at any adjustments we have to make from our end of things how we can address this issue.”
Fish and Wildlife is also involved with grain and forage producer groups on two year studies on the affects on farmland of grazing by elk, moose and deer, notes Ackerman.
Moving a haystack to another site isn’t always enough. Darryl Massee, who farms approximately 20 miles south of Dawson Creek, bought $18,000 worth of hay this fall. He moved his haystack from an area 500 yards away, to 100 feet away from his house. The 11 moose and about twenty deer followed


OK, here you go:


Agr. mule are twice of what they normally are and they've been hitting the haystacks hard. The 3 year target is to cut the numbers in half.

LEH and open seasons this year weren't nearly as successfull as before.

This is the science part - I'm sure there'll still be plenty of nay sayers but oh well.

This makes sense because if MOE was solely worried about haystacks they'd open a season on white-tails and elk which are also extremely abundant in the region. Not to mention the fact that elk are voracious feeders and they defecate all over hay making it useless as cattle won't eat it.

[Rainwater]

What happened to the fencing and or the money ? Why not fence haystacks? EK does it. We fence orchards. Did they do counts or are they taking the farmers word ? PS. I like farmers.

[oldtimer]

Well as requested. I had some of WillyQ's deer the other night and in one word I would describe it as " TENDER " Mike

[Mooseman]

I just cut some up for a friend of mine. "Very" thin and no fat on any of them.

[30-06]

I have been watching for reports back from anyone who headed up to participate in the emergency antlerless season but there is nadda. Anyone participate?

wasnt this thread started to hear of some reports from this "Season" not to argue about if it is right or not.or why they did it?

[mtnmax]

lets see some pics of them deer!!

[Jetboat]

I posted these a couple weeks back but here ya go...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_2143.jpg

This farm is 1/2 mile east of mine and as of a week ago, they've found 15 dead mule deer in the hay yard...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/338winmag/IMG_2145.jpg

The neighbour 1 mile north has had up to 45 deer in his stack yard and only a couple guys have stopped in and shot a few.

[30-06]

it dosent look like there is an abundace of snow there

[Jetboat]

This is a windswept area and these aren't the best pic's. The more sheltered areas have snow depths of 5' and more. You can't see over the top of the grader piles along some of the roads from the cab of a 3/4 ton pickup. I'll take a couple more pics for you when I get a chance if you like.

[30-06]

alright i wouldnt mind see what all the talk is about up there

[wetcoaster]

wasnt this thread started to hear of some reports from this "Season" not to argue about if it is right or not.or why they did it?

Yep thanks for trying to keep it on track. Come on boys let's see those roundheads and hear the hunting stories!

[dana]

Reminds me of the old 'You know you're a redneck when" jokes except this one would be 'You know you've been stuck in the city too long when you long to see pics of starving antlerless deer killed in Feb and Mar.'
Maybe this pic will suffice for ya. If you believe those that are beating the doom and gloom drum, this deer probably looks a little bit better than those poor Peace Country deer.:roll:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Dec31005.jpg

[Rainwater]

I'm still waiting for the photos of the starving deer.

[wetcoaster]

Reminds me of the old 'You know you're a redneck when" jokes except this one would be 'You know you've been stuck in the city too long when you long to see pics of starving antlerless deer killed in Feb and Mar.'
Maybe this pic will suffice for ya. If you believe those that are beating the doom and gloom drum, this deer probably looks a little bit better than those poor Peace Country deer.:roll:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Dec31005.jpg

Hmmmm? I thought I remember you saying that you were leaving the site for the second time this year just a few weeks ago? It must be hard for an egomaniac to go without being able to tell anyone how great they are?:tongue:

Couldn't stay away long eh?:lol:

In truth yep I'm getting cabin fever but I enjoy a hunting story regardless if it is a rat being shot in the front yard with an air gun, a hungry round head shot over hay in march or a big monster muley buck shot and hiked out for two days. Everyone has their own definition of a precious trophy and it really depends on your experience and why you hunt.

[dana]

Westcoaster,
"Hmmmm? I thought I remember you saying that you were leaving the site for the second time this year just a few weeks ago? It must be hard for an egomaniac to go without being able to tell anyone how great they are?"

You must be thinkin about Tinney as I've never given a farewell speech or said I was going to leave this site. A couple weeks back I was pokin fun at the mods and I thought they were going to give me the boot, thus I said "bye bye". I'm still here so maybe they do have a sense of humor afterall. ;)

[Rainwater]

"as I snuck up by the Old John Deere I leaned over and pulled off an incredible in the eye shot at 15 metres as the doe leaned into the bale a little harder for her evening meal" Theres a story for ya!

[wetcoaster]

"as I snuck up by the Old John Deere I leaned over and pulled off an incredible in the eye shot at 15 metres as the doe leaned into the bale a little harder for her evening meal" Theres a story for ya!

:biggrin: Good one LOL! Now if only there was a partner magazine to the romance novel of the hunting world "Big Buck" called "Big Doe" that would make it in for sure.

Dana I was just razzing ya. Where the heck was I when Timney made his speech?! That would have been worth seeing and saving for later!:twisted: Now I am going to have to go do a search, you see what you've done. I can blame you when my wife gets mad at me for spending more time on the computer. Was the thread banned?

[Elkhound]

I was pokin fun at the mods and I thought they were going to give me the boot, thus I said "bye bye". I'm still here so maybe they do have a sense of humor afterall. ;)

No sense of humour here and I resent that you think we do :lol:

[30-06]

Reminds me of the old 'You know you're a redneck when" jokes except this one would be 'You know you've been stuck in the city too long when you long to see pics of starving antlerless deer killed in Feb and Mar.'
Maybe this pic will suffice for ya. If you believe those that are beating the doom and gloom drum, this deer probably looks a little bit better than those poor Peace Country deer.:roll:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Dec31005.jpg

if that post was directed towards me i dont live in the city i live far from it

[Gateholio]

Keep this in mind, please:

6. There is to be no frowning upon a member for the method of hunting used, or the sex, age of the animal. If it's legal then it's legal no if, and, or, but!

[Rainwater]

Regardless of Regulation #6 if a guy shoots a hungry doe using a tractor as rest while it feeds on a haystack that should be fenced, in the month of Feb ,then it "IS" our job to call him a slob hunter.

[Gateholio]

Regardless of Regulation #6 if a guy shoots a hungry doe using a tractor as rest while it feeds on a haystack that should be fenced, in the month of Feb ,then it "IS" our job to call him a slob hunter.

It's your job to judge other people that are involved in a legal activity?

I think not...

[Mr. Dean]

Regardless of Regulation #6 if a guy shoots a hungry doe using a tractor as rest while it feeds on a haystack that should be fenced, in the month of Feb ,then it "IS" our job to call him a slob hunter.

Rainy, I disagree...
If we don't like what is being fed off of the spoon, then we should take that matter up with the people that hold it - Not the one's feeding from it.

[Gateholio]

Rainy, I disagree...
If we don't like what is being fed off of the spoon, then we should take that matter up with the people that hold it - Not the one's feeding from it.

Exactly...

[wetcoaster]

Rainy, I disagree...
If we don't like what is being fed off of the spoon, then we should take that matter up with the people that hold it - Not the one's feeding from it.

X2 Well said! If you have a beef it should be taken up with those that called for the hunt.

[Rainwater]

I like that analogy about the spoon feeding so I apologize to all the starving spoonfeaders that had to drive for hours to shoot that "starving" deer. Good on ya'!

[GoatGuy]

Regardless of Regulation #6 if a guy shoots a hungry doe using a tractor as rest while it feeds on a haystack that should be fenced, in the month of Feb ,then it "IS" our job to call him a slob hunter.

Different than shooting a doe in a field in december? How about on the edge of a field? In the bush near the field?

Is it the time of year? The location? Impact on trophy quality?

[Rainwater]

Read the posts Goatguy, aren't they shooting starving deer in Feb? Did I miss something. As I have said before this is the time when true conservationists (actually the first conservators) STOOD UP for what was right. NOT, acted like hungry wolves and took whatever stood at the haystack. This is WHEN BCWeffers should be helping farmers by paying for feed on (let me stress here) on an INTERIM basis in order to help wildlife. Not whack the shit out of it when they are down. No I'm not going to be led down the "trophy" or whatabout in a "field" path with anyone. It's not about that and you KNOW IT!

[Rainwater]

PS: Gatehouse, You let people rant on here about night hunting by Natives and that's legal my friend. So put regulation 6 in the round file.

[GoatGuy]

Read the posts Goatguy, aren't they shooting starving deer in Feb? Did I miss something. As I have said before this is the time when true conservationists (actually the first conservators) STOOD UP for what was right. NOT, acted like hungry wolves and took whatever stood at the haystack. This is WHEN BCWeffers should be helping farmers by paying for feed on (let me stress here) on an INTERIM basis in order to help wildlife. Not whack the shit out of it when they are down. No I'm not going to be led down the "trophy" or whatabout in a "field" path with anyone. It's not about that and you KNOW IT!
What's the solution?

Here's where we're at. MOE 3 yr target is to cut the herd by 50%. This isn't only about farmers- they have all kinds of elk and wt's living in those same fields and there's no gos on them right now. Currently the deer are living off of farmer's haybales because there are too many of them.

If the hay was fenced the deer would be dying. Feeding them isn't the solution. If we feed them this year we'll have to do it next year.

As it is, feeding off of hay bales they're starving to death. I'd rather see them end up on somebody's plate then the grill of their truck or as wolf bait.

Do you have any better solutions? It'd be nice to go back in time but we're here now and we have a problem.

[Gateholio]

PS: Gatehouse, So put regulation 6 in the round file.


Despite what you wish to believe, Rule #6 still applies here.

[Rainwater]

AA was told years ago there was gonna be a problem so maybe we should ask the bio for a solution other than the Ted Nugent plan. The documentation I read (on this site) from WLAP said it was to address RANCHER CONFLICT which I guess they guess translates to too many deer. Liberal GOS (no leh), hunter friendly farmers,no point restrictions,longer archery seasons, prescribed burns, fenced hay stacks to keep farmers happy (what happened to that money anyway?). That's a start but we all knew that anyway didn't we.

[GoatGuy]

AA was told years ago there was gonna be a problem so maybe we should ask the bio for a solution other than the Ted Nugent plan. The documentation I read (on this site) from WLAP said it was to address RANCHER CONFLICT which I guess they guess translates to too many deer. Liberal GOS (no leh), hunter friendly farmers,no point restrictions,longer archery seasons, prescribed burns, fenced hay stacks to keep farmers happy (what happened to that money anyway?). That's a start but we all knew that anyway didn't we.

All your solutions are good for the future and will be addressed; unfortunately now is the word of the day and that is what we're looking for a solution for.

Proactive solutions are always the best approach but sometimes, for one reason or another, we get caught with our pants down.:lol:

[dana]

GG,
I have a hard time believing you actually think this makes sense. Did you go to the same school as Tinney or what? ;)

[GoatGuy]

GG,
I have a hard time believing you actually think this makes sense. Did you go to the same school as Tinney or what? ;)


How'd you know tinney and I went to the same school???? Who says I even went to school?

My point is we have a problem right now - this isn't last March when we could have set up proper regs and it isn't this spring when we can do it again, it's right now.

What are the other options?

It'd be nice for someone to put up a solution instead of complaining about their own vices/style and preference as to how and why they choose to harvest and consequently why they think how/why everyone else should follow in their boot tracks.

[dana]

GG,
I've asked the question before "Why right now???" and yet no one has answered it. Like I have said before and I know you know the science, if there is indeed a starvation situation going on here, this is not the way to deal with it. Personally, just based on what I am seeing in other areas of the province, I don't think there is a starvation situation going on. But of course I haven't been up to the Peace and maybe they are experiecing an issolated situation up there. If they are, having so-called hunters go up and whack healthy deer while the sick ones starve, is not the way to solve the problem now is it?

[Husky7mm]

Down in the kootenays Ranchers get paid well for elk and deer depredation on their grass. $5000-$20000 per yr. Because of this some of them dont even put up elk fences. I'm sure its no different up there in the peace. Now the rest of the province will have to suffer the hoards of extra hunters making new plans because this area has gone for shit! Deep snow and cold weather is nothing new up there, what/who is the real agenda!

[GoatGuy]

GG,
I've asked the question before "Why right now???" and yet no one has answered it. Like I have said before and I know you know the science, if there is indeed a starvation situation going on here, this is not the way to deal with it. Personally, just based on what I am seeing in other areas of the province, I don't think there is a starvation situation going on. But of course I haven't been up to the Peace and maybe they are experiecing an issolated situation up there. If they are, having so-called hunters go up and whack healthy deer while the sick ones starve, is not the way to solve the problem now is it?

Waited too long and too late.

If they were worried strictly about farmers they'd have the same season on whities and elk - that's very simple.

I understand the deer are in poor shape, the snow got seriously crunchy combined with cold weather. Having said that they also got some nice weather up there and apparently the big lake didn't freeze up until a week ago. So who really knows what will happen because the weather will dictate what happens in the end.

In any case harvesting 400 deer out of 7B is a drop in the bucket - last I was told but a reputable source 8-) all of 45 had been harvested?? Whoop dee do!


Speaking with my buddy who lives up there sounds like you'll see a longer GOS up there on mule does next year. I'm sure somebody will complain about that too.


So far as starvation issues go and winter kill I don't think that there are weak ones and strong ones it effects the entire population. Finite amount of feed and a certain number of calories which need to be eaten by the population. If you knock the population back the total number of calories required will decrease which may meet the available food source?????

Predators have also moved right into the lowlands and taken full advantage of the snow conditions. My buddy said there was a pack of Wolves right in HH two weeks ago and he and a couple buddies were gonna go and try to put the hurt on them.

After all is said and done this hunt/harvest will not have an impact on the deer herd.

From what I've read most of the posters believe that this type of hunt doesn't line up with what their so called moral code or is contrary to their preffered methods of hunting - that, I believe, is the real issue.

They don't believe it's hunting, course they don't take a second to look inside, at the roots of hunting or even examine their own actions as they relate to this hunt. Coming upon the realization that First Nations used to hunt in January and February on a regular basis was and is still the norm.


We've heard this hunt will affect trophy potential because bucks will be mistakenly shot, when it won't.


We heard taking a pregnant doe in February kills a fawn, course if that person has ever harvested a doe after Nov 1 during hunting season, they'd realize they've done the same. They'd also realize if the've ever harvested a cow moose or elk after mid-September they've probably done the same. Seem ironic?

Not to mention there was no discussion about the antlerless elk season which happens throughout the winter up there.

We've also herd about shooting off haybails in February and how sporting it is. Course is there a huge difference between throwing bait at the bottom of your treestand in January in the US on the side of field planted in 'mossy oaks big buck seeds'?

So far as CWD goes it was not the drive behind the hunt but the ministry is taking heads for testing as the threat is very real.

There's no such thing as a so called hunter! There are hunters and there are poachers. Tinney and I both learned that in class and I'm sure you were taught the same thing in Clearwater!:lol:

[Rainwater]

Goatguy, You do make some valid points in your counter to our concerns. Wildlife conservationists have been buying winter wildlife habitat to protect wildlife in other jurisdictions. Why? So they will have a place to forage during the winter, not so they can shoot them. We have been doing controlled burns on overgrown winter habitat. Why? So they will have a place to forage during the winter, not be whacked. There is no need to disguise the real issue here. Hopefully a lot will be learned from what has happened up there. I will say it is pretty easy to judge them up there when we are watching the grass grow down here in the South.

[dana]

GG,
The core of the issue is that all you have just said is happening all over the province. Should we just make a Feb-March slaughter the norm. We've been stackin good winters on top of good winters. There is no doubt wildlife populations are high across the board. Like I've said before, sure hope the bios in the other Regions don't get hairbrained ideas like this one. I like your comments about predators right in HH? Wow, geeze, we've got wolves right out our back door too. And lions too. Guess I should go out and kill some deer because we can't have just the wolves doing it.
I know you know the logic of a spur of the moment hunt like this is flawed. You just playing devil's advocate and that at least has kept the issue alive and allowed people to think for themselves. Ever think maybe the reason only 40 animals have been killed thus far during this so-called hunt may something to do with threads like this one? Ever think that maybe people are beginning to think for themselves instead of jumping on the 'kill for killing sake' bandwagon.
"From what I've read most of the posters believe that this type of hunt doesn't line up with what their so called moral code or is contrary to their preffered methods of hunting - that, I believe, is the real issue"
Ever wonder how we arrived at the code of ethics that we have in this province? Sportsmen and women spoke up and said certain things do not line up with their moral code. That is why we don't allow pitlamping, why we don't allow highfenced canned hunts, why we don't allow bear baiting, ect ect. I'd say that the lack of hunter involvement in this feb/mar 'harvest' should tell the bio up there something. It should tell him the majority of hunters in this province don't think it's a good idea.

[Gateholio]

From what I've read most of the posters believe that this type of hunt doesn't line up with what their so called moral code or is contrary to their preffered methods of hunting - that, I believe, is the real issue.

They don't believe it's hunting, course they don't take a second to look inside, at the roots of hunting or even examine their own actions as they relate to this hunt. Coming upon the realization that First Nations used to hunt in January and February on a regular basis was and is still the norm.


:lol:

Morals are pretty hard to legislate. :lol: It's far easier to legislate for safety and/or conservation.

I woudl guess that the lack of particiaption has to more to do with: Fairly remote acess for 90% of BC's population and zero "trophy" potential.

If the season included mature bucks (assuming they still had thier antlers) I bet we woudl see alot more particpation.8-)

I doubt it's because of conservation concerns, since the amount of deer taken by hunters would be a drop in the bucket compared to what will be taken by predators, roadkill and starvation.

[Rainwater]

Still missing the point hey Gatehouse.

[Gateholio]

Still missing the point hey Gatehouse.

Which point? Do you mean that snide comments actually have points in them?:lol:

I am commenting only on the reasons for lack of participation.

It's not conservation, since the # of deer killed by hunters would be small. The herd will not be wiped out by some deer being shot.

It may be because of personal ethics/morality, but that is hard to measure without a poll. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. IIRC we had a poll here that indicated a large percentage of the members woudl do it if it wasn't such a long drive.

It certianly has somethign to do with remoteness for much of BC's population. It's still a 4 hour drive from PG.

It may be because of the lack of "trophy" opportunity, but I am only speculating.

That's my point, and I made it without name calling.8-)

[ianwuzhere]

First deer with a bow. Was a great experience. Steaks are delicious...

[Rainwater]

That deer doesn't look starving but the cat does. After you get a few more with your bow the hard way you may look differently upon this kill at the stack, that's my assumption judging by the backdrop of the photo. Each to their own. Gate, My points are fairly direct and not snide. If I called someone a slob that was inappropriate but is still my opinion. You seem to think differently and keep saying the kill is small in comparison to roadkills and wolves, and that is still not the point is it.

[GoatGuy]

GG,
The core of the issue is that all you have just said is happening all over the province. Should we just make a Feb-March slaughter the norm. We've been stackin good winters on top of good winters. There is no doubt wildlife populations are high across the board. Like I've said before, sure hope the bios in the other Regions don't get hairbrained ideas like this one. I like your comments about predators right in HH? Wow, geeze, we've got wolves right out our back door too. And lions too. Guess I should go out and kill some deer because we can't have just the wolves doing it.
I know you know the logic of a spur of the moment hunt like this is flawed. You just playing devil's advocate and that at least has kept the issue alive and allowed people to think for themselves. Ever think maybe the reason only 40 animals have been killed thus far during this so-called hunt may something to do with threads like this one? Ever think that maybe people are beginning to think for themselves instead of jumping on the 'kill for killing sake' bandwagon.
"From what I've read most of the posters believe that this type of hunt doesn't line up with what their so called moral code or is contrary to their preffered methods of hunting - that, I believe, is the real issue"
Ever wonder how we arrived at the code of ethics that we have in this province? Sportsmen and women spoke up and said certain things do not line up with their moral code. That is why we don't allow pitlamping, why we don't allow highfenced canned hunts, why we don't allow bear baiting, ect ect. I'd say that the lack of hunter involvement in this feb/mar 'harvest' should tell the bio up there something. It should tell him the majority of hunters in this province don't think it's a good idea.

You've lost me, there are no other areas in the province that want to cut their mule deer herd in half.

Yes, devils advocate is true - not my kind of hunt but I'm certainly not shaking my fist at those who do participate either.

One must be conscious of the reasons why they don't believe in it; one must also realize that some of the hunts they have participated in aren't much different. After that, one must also realize that we all hunt differently and putting folks down without considering how they were brought up, who they are and why they hunt (meat, trophy, feed their family) is and always will be different - - - - - does that mean really mean they're slobs?

Hunting's roots go much farther than a hunting season for deer which must be from September to November. People used to harvest deer when they wanted to and when they needed to feed their families (I don't think this is any different - obviously anyone who harvests is ONLY doing it for meat). For some of us things are different today; we do it because we like it, but not for all.

I never said this was the only solution, merely that if you're gonna pipe up have an answer for right now. I would have been different to have this discussion a year ago, but we're here, now and it's something that is being delt with.


If it's about morals then lets get it out there and quit skirting the issue.

Those are great threads!

[GoatGuy]

That deer doesn't look starving but the cat does. After you get a few more with your bow the hard way you may look differently upon this kill at the stack, that's my assumption judging by the backdrop of the photo. Each to their own.

Each to their own is right - - I don't think belittling a young and new bowhunter is neither proactive, nor constructive for anyone.

Something prevelant in hunting though - putting other people's methods down.

Why are we recruiting fewer and losing more hunters? :lol:

[GoatGuy]

First deer with a bow. Was a great experience. Steaks are delicious...

Congrats:lol: ............

[willyqbc]

Something prevelant in hunting though - putting other people's methods down.

Why are we recruiting fewer and losing more hunters?

I was just thinking that!

Congrats from me as well, looks like a good shot and a nice clean kill!

Chris

[RiverOtter]

Something prevelant in hunting though - putting other people's methods down.


Pulling a "ZUMBO", so to speak.

RO

[dana]

GG,
My point is why do they want to cut the mule deer population by 50% in the Peace and not the entire province as deer numbers are up accross the board? Why a cull in the Peace and not a cull in the Cariboo, or in the OK or in the Thompson??? Why a cull just on Muleys in the Peace??? Are not elk and whitetails at very high pops as well???? It is a known fact that elk outcompete muleys, so if the carrying capacity is at max, why not cull elk as well???? Again why now. If the hunter harvest in this 'special' season is so flippin low, then why couldn't they wait???? Again I'll state my opinion that this is nothing but a new bio trying to make a name for himself and distance himself from the policies of the old bio. Sorry if you've heard good things about the guy, but it seems he may actually be managing for political reasons and not scientific reasons. To me, this is the Core of the issue. Again, I keep on bringing up other areas because I'd hate to see these kind of policies being implented here in the south. If you argue the high deer numbers, you have take that arguement to pretty much the entire province don't ya?

[RiverOtter]

BTW, good job with your bow Ian.

RO

[pmj]

Congratulations iwh, nice shooting. Wish I could get up there to get one or two.

[wetcoasthunter]

Why don't they just open the season up without all those restrictions up there (4 pt. or better), that might help?

[ianwuzhere]

thanx. it was definatly different- and more difficult hunting with a bow. To get a nice clean broad side shot took passing up a few deer that were within distance. In the end I felt more rewarded vs a gun. The arrow went right thru the lungs and came out the other side. Im still green to bow hunting but hope to practice on small game in the upcoming season and possibly get some good hunts in on some large game in the future.
Cheers!

[Bow Walker]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_72.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) Nice looking animal Ian.......good on ya for your first one!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)

[Gateholio]

Ian, well done.

Looks liek a good opportunity fo r anew bow hunter to practice his skills. Unfortunately, there are always some peopel that believe that *thier* way is the *only* way to do things...Hope you enjoy the steaks...



. You seem to think differently and keep saying the kill is small in comparison to roadkills and wolves, and that is still not the point is it.

Clearly, you have a comprehension problem. Twice I have mentioned that I am only speculating on the lack of participation, and I said that: I don't think that one of the reasons for it [lack of participation] was due to conservation concerns, since small numbers hunters would harvest would not impact the herd.

Do you understand now?

[Gateholio]

One must be conscious of the reasons why they don't believe in it; one must also realize that some of the hunts they have participated in aren't much different. !

Good point.

Is this much different than shooting an immature moose on the side of the road, that you bumped into while driving? Or shooting a spiker in the same circumstances?

In both cases, your prime motivation is the harvest of meat, expediently- Not a "deep in the backwoods hunting outing" experience.

[Mr. Dean]

First deer with a bow. Was a great experience. Steaks are delicious...

Looks like a well placed shot - Congrats!
Don't feel ashamed by that smile on your face. 8)

[wetcoaster]

Looks like a great doe and congrats on your first bow kill. Enjoy the venison while it lasts. It doesn't seem to matter how many deer I get it goes fast! Thanks for posting your story amidst all the naysayers.:cool:

[Rainwater]

I would like to take this opportunity to take back my slob hunter referance, my apologies. My emotions on this issue took the best of me.

[bighornbob]

Maybe we should look at it in another way. Maybe the ranchers are asking for a winter season on does and there is political pressure outside the MOE. So the bio puts in a February hunt to make the ranchers happy. He full well knows that that 90% of the hunters in the province are not going to go up there in the middle of winter to shoot a doe its not worth it. He also knows that if he put a 2 doe limit in the November buck season or during moose and elk season that every truck would be going home with 2 does for every hunter. He also knows the ranchers that are pissed off will shoot their two does and that at least makes them happy they are somewhat able to protect their land. He also knows most of the locals probably got their moose or elk and a buck and meat is not a primary concern.

So in his mind how many does are going to get shot a few by kids getting their first deer, a few by bowhunters getting into the sport, and more by the farmers that are pissed at the deer for eating their hay.

So if you add it up:
Kids get to shoot their first deer = great for our sport
Guy getting into bow hunting= great for our sport
A hunter who did not get his game=gets to put meat on the table
Farmer gets to shoot is dasterdly arch enemy= he feels goos about shooting them
So everybody wins.

Next year when there is more pressure from the farmers and politians for a winter hunt the biologist can say "Look we had a month long season on does and only 50 were shot, its not worth having. We tried the hunt and it did not work"

Maybe the bio is forward thinking. Just something to think about.

BHB

[Gateholio]

Maybe we should look at it in another way. Maybe the ranchers are asking for a winter season on does and there is political pressure outside the MOE. So the bio puts in a February hunt to make the ranchers happy. He full well knows that that 90% of the hunters in the province are not going to go up there in the middle of winter to shoot a doe its not worth it. He also knows that if he put a 2 doe limit in the November buck season or during moose and elk season that every truck would be going home with 2 does for every hunter. He also knows the ranchers that are pissed off will shoot their two does and that at least makes them happy they are somewhat able to protect their land. He also knows most of the locals probably got their moose or elk and a buck and meat is not a primary concern.

So in his mind how many does are going to get shot a few by kids getting their first deer, a few by bowhunters getting into the sport, and more by the farmers that are pissed at the deer for eating their hay.

So if you add it up:
Kids get to shoot their first deer = great for our sport
Guy getting into bow hunting= great for our sport
A hunter who did not get his game=gets to put meat on the table
Farmer gets to shoot is dasterdly arch enemy= he feels goos about shooting them
So everybody wins.

Next year when there is more pressure from the farmers and politians for a winter hunt the biologist can say "Look we had a month long season on does and only 50 were shot, its not worth having. We tried the hunt and it did not work"

Maybe the bio is forward thinking. Just something to think about.

BHB

Interesting points BHB. 8-)

[Mr. Dean]

So if you add it up:
Kids get to shoot their first deer = great for our sport
Guy getting into bow hunting= great for our sport
A hunter who did not get his game=gets to put meat on the table
Farmer gets to shoot is dasterdly arch enemy= he feels goos about shooting them
So everybody wins.

My head-space exactly.
I like the furtune telling story. I didn't think of that.

[boxhitch]

I would like to take this opportunity to take back my slob hunter referance, my apologies. My emotions on this issue took the best of me.
Hhhmm, backpedal-backpedal.......
Maybe someone has jumped the fence and has a bowhunt arranged ?

[Gateholio]

Hhhmm, backpedal-backpedal.......
Maybe someone has jumped the fence and has a bowhunt arranged ?

And maybe it's just someone that sees that a *new* bowhunter took the opportunity to try it out, using this specail season as a beta test to see if he would relaly be interested in bow hunting, and saw that the new guy was enthused, as anyone woudl be- abotu getting a deer, in a different or new manner, and decided that perhaps he was only lookign at the picture form one angle, and not the multi dimensional angles that comprise the vast differences between hunters.

I respect anyone that will sincereley apologize, and respect anyone that wil look at several sides in a balanced manner.

[Fisher-Dude]

Ian, nice shot and congrats on your first bow kill! Enjoy the steaks! Did kitty get to have a taste? 8-)

[boxhitch]

I respect anyone that will sincereley apologize, and respect anyone that wil look at several sides in a balanced manner.
Ditto , my post was in jest (missed the :smile: button)

[Gateholio]

Ditto , my post was in jest (missed the :smile: button)

ha ha...

Okay...spanking withdrawn:lol: 8-)

[Elkhound]

Congrats on the deer Ian. Looks good to me. Just getting into bow hunting myself. If I lived closer I would have taken a doe as well. Good for you

[Rainwater]

Man you guys won't even let a guy apologize in peace, and as I said it was my emotions about this "hunt" that got me worked up and that has NOT changed. Just gonna clean up my terminology.

[Mr. Dean]

Man you guys won't even let a guy apologize in peace, and as I said it was my emotions about this "hunt" that got me worked up and that has NOT changed. Just gonna clean up my terminology.
Serenity now, serenity NOW!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[bigwhiteys]

Sorry to drag this thread up... Just got word from a farmer up North (region 7) that they dragged 11 dead moose and 58 dead mule deer out of their fields this year that had died of starvation.

That's just on a few sections. :(

Carl

[30-06]

that sucks.hopefully it dosent hurt the population to bad.i will be going up there for moose/elk this fall.wonder if it will greatly lesson the odds of getting one

[lip_ripper00]

they dragged 11 dead moose and 58 dead mule deer out of their fields this year that had died of starvation.

That's just on a few sections. :(

Carl


well then the wolfves must be waddling around too full to run, should have a wolf cull now!!