Something to think about.

[gcreek]

I don't know where this originated but it agrees with my thoughts. Are the "facts" written about the Kootenays true?





The Swede's kill around 100,000 moose every year on a land base less than 1/2 the size of BC. Main reason are a lack of predators and no FN's to deal with. Unregulated FN hunting has a large impact on ungulates, especially moose in rural BC, however the government is not about to change that any time soon, study or not.. In the Kootenays, Grizzly Bears and Black Bears take a high percentage of Moose calves, elk calves and fawns. Cougars are plentiful and last year we hunted and killed 210 cougars in the Kootenays, that equates to 13,000 ungulates no matter how you count, just from the Kootenays. Throw in ever increasing grey wolf numbers and we are on the cusp of predator pit conditions. Legal Hunters may harvest a reasonable 7% of any deer species annually.. that is not the harvest level now, due to declining deer numbers, moose numbers and elk numbers. We have cougars and wolves on the outskirts of every town in the Kootenays, hence high deer and now elk numbers in town, where it is safer. We presently have a big radio collared tom cougar on King street, killing Mule deer as they cross the rail road, three blocks from down town Cranbrook.


Kootenay National Park introduced wolves in 1981, ungulates in the park are almost non existent to-day as compared to numbers prior to wolves being released there..
Some hunting regulation need tweaking, access closures all need to be reviewed, they are not working., we need access to kill predators, packing out the edible portions of Black bears also comes to mind, there is no edible portions of black bears according to the Ministry of Health.
We need to regulate FN, kill more predators, especially wolves, cougars and bears, and keep these predator numbers well below carrying capacity. That is or should be the findings of 22 biologists after the four year study.

[two-feet]

Maybe Sweden has a large moose population because they grow willow for biomass and this makes good eats for them? Obviously lack of preds and FN helps but the capacity of the habitat is always the first factor to consider. And opening up access so we can hunt preds will have the opposite effect, giving the preds better access to the animals you are trying to protect. And many biologists already agree that hunting wolves will have little to no consequence in the larger scheme, for any serious reduction in the wolf population you need a campaign of poison and/or shooting from helicopters, and this campaign must be sustained perpetually or else the wolves will bounce back within 3-4 years.

[steel_ram]

I don't want BC to become a moose farm. We do have human issues we need to deal with but I prefer our present wildlife diversity.

[Darksith]

I wonder what the stats are for Newfoundland...

[yama49]

I wonder what the stats are for Newfoundland...

Sometimes you have to look elsewhere to find out what works, might not work here, but it might.. Don't be so narrow minded

[sawmill]

I wonder what the stats are for Newfoundland...

150,000 in 2007 with 6000 to 7000 taken every year.All from 4 that were introduced in 1900. So they say.

[two-feet]

I don't want BC to become a moose farm. We do have human issues we need to deal with but I prefer our present wildlife diversity.

I agree. A healthy, functioning ecosystem has predators.

[skibum]

I agree. A healthy, functioning ecosystem has predators.

Ya Me as the dominate predator.

An "ecosystem" is not some perfectly functioning system that is in balance. It is always in flux, and if one species is eliminated, adjustment to the "ecosystem are made. Humans are part of that ecosystem (which some refuse to admit) and we can eliminate or control the population of our competition

[panhead]

Tanx Gcreek ... Tink I'll get a plane ticket over dere vit Lana dis year. Maybe meet Lars over dere too ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Redneck is hunting in Arkansas and shoots and kills a deer. Upon closer examination he realizes that it was a cow.
Going up to the nearest farmhouse, he explains the mistake he has made to the farmer.
"My God!" the farmer says, "You done kilt my favorite heifer. She had a pussy just like a woman's!"
"Don't worry," the Redneck says, "I'll give you my wife. She has a pussy like a cow's."

[adriaticum]

From what I hear NF moose management is exemplary.

[GoatGuy]

Bit of truth, bit of fiction.

Missed habitat which is garbage in the EK.

Throw wolves into the mix and things go sideways - it's really a game changer. Most of the spots in the southern half of the province didn't have wolves until the last decade and they changing the dynamic for sure.

That cat is dead, think there's only one collar left - not sure who done it, probably one of the culls from cranbrook or the poaching crew. All the reports coming in from the trench are very young cats, lots of females and lots of stuff <80lbs. I think the 'crash' is in effect at least in that part of R4.

[Darksith]

Sometimes you have to look elsewhere to find out what works, might not work here, but it might.. Don't be so narrow minded

how was I being narrow minded? I just stated that Newfoundland has a high moose population and probably doesn't have the predators we have. Comparing somewhere that has high populations without the same obstacles as BC isn't really a relevant comparison though. Just like comparing the QCI deer population with the rest of BC...now I am being narrow minded!

Its the moose density that really is important rather than the harvest numbers. How the habitat/ecosystem supports the high density populations. There are so many factors involved. In NF I guess you could consider vehicles a predator over there

[gcreek]

Bit of truth, bit of fiction.

Missed habitat which is garbage in the EK.

Throw wolves into the mix and things go sideways - it's really a game changer. Most of the spots in the southern half of the province didn't have wolves until the last decade and they changing the dynamic for sure.

That cat is dead, think there's only one collar left - not sure who done it, probably one of the culls from cranbrook or the poaching crew. All the reports coming in from the trench are very young cats, lots of females and lots of stuff <80lbs. I think the 'crash' is in effect at least in that part of R4.


GG, the note was sent to me via email with no date and no source. Just wanted to know how much possible truth was included in it.

It's interesting how many that do hunt and are out in the "bush" still don't see the trees for the forest. (I did mean it that way...) Guess my job isn't over yet!

[MB_Boy]

I am not sure how much it impacts the moose population in Sweden but they also have quite the selective harvest. My Dad spoke at the Moose Conference there many years ago and although I don't require all the details I do recall him speaking of the different mentality in harvesting the big, mature breeding bulls; they didn't do it. In saying that they DO harvest cows if I recall correctly; I know that it doesn't take a "mature breeder" to spread his oats. :wink: That may have changed as we're talking 20 years ago now and obviously lack of preds is a notable factor.

I don't think that selective harvest has a huge impact but it was interesting to me in the different mentality.

I do recall seeing pictures of vehicle junkyards with TONS of vehicles from moose collisions.

Should I speak to Doc Moose I'll ask him what he knows of the current situation over there, management practices etc. (I know this thread is speaking more to the Koots but since Sveeeeden was mentioned I'll see what I can find out.) He has a lot of good bio friends over there....I'll ask him what he may know.

[GoatGuy]

Things are also changing in Sweden and across the EU as they have transitioned to a large carnivore conservation mandate. Essentially, the EU has told the rural countries that they have to have minimum predator populations before the individual countries can manage them (similar to SARA legislation in Canada and ESA in the US).

Wolf and 'brown bear' populations are on the rise. The 2004 pop estimate for wolves was 70 and the goal was a minimum of 200. Sweden used to 'keep' only a handful of wolves in the entire country...... expect change. I think the brown bear minimum goal is 1000.

[horshur]

I have hunted with fellows from Norway and Finland...it is a lot different there they harvest all age classes and have had very high quotas that the hunting club has to meet and as a member you must keep hunting till they are met it is not really a choice. ....

[finngun]

I have hunted with fellows from Norway and Finland...it is a lot different there they harvest all age classes and have had very high quotas that the hunting club has to meet and as a member you must keep hunting till they are met it is not really a choice. ....

at least in finland..shooting bull or cow..no point counting... and calf is 2 for one:mrgreen:,,means 2 calf or one mature moose..simple,,and works there.. why not try here:confused:

[Fisher-Dude]

I have hunted with fellows from Norway and Finland...it is a lot different there they harvest all age classes and have had very high quotas that the hunting club has to meet and as a member you must keep hunting till they are met it is not really a choice. ....


In BC, hunters argue with each other about harvesting all age classes even with our low quotas, whilst moose populations decline.

[GoatGuy]

I have hunted with fellows from Norway and Finland...it is a lot different there they harvest all age classes and have had very high quotas that the hunting club has to meet and as a member you must keep hunting till they are met it is not really a choice. ....

Are you saying that they harvest females and calves???

Crazyness. Apparently we in BC are the only jurisdiction in North America where the harvesting of anything other than male only is not only unsustainable, it is socially unacceptable.

[dana]

If one is going to compare Sweden to us, one must ask, how many other big game animals do they have besides moose? BC is ver very diverse. Not many Northern jurisdictions that even come close to our diversity. So, while it's nice to think about some other country's moose pops, are we saying the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? I can assure you, the Europeans look at us in longing, wishing they could have just a small portion of what we have. As a matter of fact, BC is the Dream for most of the world's hunters.

[finngun]

If one is going to compare Sweden to us, one must ask, how many other big game animals do they have besides moose? BC is ver very diverse. Not many Northern jurisdictions that even come close to our diversity. So, while it's nice to think about some other country's moose pops, are we saying the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I can assure you, the Europeans look at us in longing, wishing they could have just a small portion of what we have. As a matter of fact, BC is the Dream for most of the world's hunters.

they have most of big game,,same we have here..missing are gougar,,bison,,m.goat,,maybe some another to...here are some list..http://www.naturetravels.co.uk/wildlife.htm..

i don't say the grass is greener on the other side of the fence ,but on the other side of the fence they might have some better ideas,,than here..why not pick ideas what might work here to:confused: what is a problem like example.... double B C moose population..what we have here right now?BC has huge areas where moose is not very common animal..
and yes,,, BC is very diverse, but sometimes you hunting means travelling long distances before you are able to harvest wanted game..i like better to shoot game right where i'm living..if possible..:-|

[dana]

So they have 4 species of mountain sheep, 4 species of deer, 2 species of elk, 2 species of bear, caribou, moose, wolf, cougar, bison, mountain goat, plus a bunch of smaller critters like lynx, bobcat, and wolverine. All of which are huntable?

[finngun]

So they have 4 species of mountain sheep, 4 species of deer, 2 species of elk, 2 species of bear, caribou, moose, wolf, cougar, bison, mountain goat, plus a bunch of smaller critters like lynx, bobcat, and wolverine. All of which are huntable?

no but they have wayyy more moose per sq/km than here....and no fn night 'huntters' ..:mrgreen:

[dana]

Just because they have more moose harvested doesn't mean squat. Funny how a lot of Europeans still book moose hunts here. why if the hunting is so good there? I really get tired of the bitching that goes on on and on here. People don't have a clue how good they have it. Oh my gawd, hunting season was tuff. Get over it. Life isn't supposed to be easy.

[finngun]

just short sighted opinion,,nothing else.or have you tasting some bitter??/// I really get tired of the bitching that goes on on and on here///
where heck i been bitching anything here???? i just say as reality is,,and by the way how many years you been hunting in europe..?talking about experience..eh?
and what is wrong to learn about new things what are maybe better than here?
canada is great hunting place,,lets keep it that way..,but if we are smart we can make it even better..

[BlacktailStalker]

I wonder what the stats are for Newfoundland...

The newfies swerve long before the moose cross the road = less roadside casualties = more moose. Maybe BC should brew more screech.

[hunter fisher]

where and why does the MOH say bear in unedible?

[horshur]

actually if they have enough money they will hunt Kamtchaka for moose.....the reason they hunt moose here is the same as why they hunt there......they like hunting moose....many come over to hunt here the same species they hunt there.......there is also different method and different expectations...very unlikely in Nordic countries to shoot a big older bull as well...they come over here to get a Canadian moose.

I thought the whole point of mentioning Sweden was that they had higher harvest over smaller area with less wilderness area, high road density.. most likely because they have had aggressive predator management......if we had aggressive predator management there would be more moose to hunt ....less restrictions....less LEH...more hunter opportunity .

[two-feet]

Wolves keep their prey species at low abundance, and it would take a huge amount of resources ($) to keep them at a level that would see the moose/deer/elk/caribou make large gains in population size. This will only happen when the govt is told by a large (or small and vocal) part of the electorate that this is how we would like our tax dollars spent.

[HarryToolips]

If one is going to compare Sweden to us, one must ask, how many other big game animals do they have besides moose? BC is ver very diverse. Not many Northern jurisdictions that even come close to our diversity. So, while it's nice to think about some other country's moose pops, are we saying the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? I can assure you, the Europeans look at us in longing, wishing they could have just a small portion of what we have. As a matter of fact, BC is the Dream for most of the world's hunters.

Sounds about right, I have heard that BC has the most diversity basically in the world..makes sense, more of an array of species fighting over the same space/food source, equates to less moose.. what I have learned from this site however, is that the road access is what is really helpin the preds out, and of course hunters with more accessible land etc..so what I think would make BC even more awesome than it already is, would be to de-activate more loggin roads (I know, I know, $$$), and what I really have been lobbying for, leave more old growth forests alone, I find plenty of moose sign in old-growth, I would think they like the safety it provides with fallen dead timber, thick stands of different growth etc that makes it hard for preds to get at them..just my theories and opinions...

[dana]

just short sighted opinion,,nothing else.or have you tasting some bitter??/// I really get tired of the bitching that goes on on and on here///
where heck i been bitching anything here???? i just say as reality is,,and by the way how many years you been hunting in europe..?talking about experience..eh?
and what is wrong to learn about new things what are maybe better than here?
canada is great hunting place,,lets keep it that way..,but if we are smart we can make it even better..

finn,
I wasn't taking about you, I was talking about the constant bitching by many others on this site, like what this thread was really aiming for. With the biodiversity we have here, thinking we must have high moose pops everywhere is not looking at the big picture. I live in an area that once had some of the highest moose densities on the planet. Was a natural boom that happened due to a large forest fire. The moose boom had adverse effects for other critters, namely the Southern Mountain Caribou. And while moose were at unbelievable numbers for a few decades, it did see a major crash when a decade of harsh winters came in. Do we want to learn from nature or manage for high numbers so we can see both adverse effects on other critters and huge crashes after a huge high? IMO BC is currently experiencing a crash. One that has been caused by many factors. Some of which are actually unknown at this point and time. The fact is moose are crashing around many parts of the world. It was only a short while ago we were in a high point with moose in this province. I believe those days will be around again regardless of what happens to seasons and the such. We need to look at things in a big picture and stop worrying that the sky is falling everytime we encounter a tuff hunting season.

[finngun]

ok dana...:mrgreen: i rest my case....

[Fisher-Dude]

I thought the whole point of mentioning Sweden was that they had higher harvest over smaller area with less wilderness area, high road density.. most likely because they have had aggressive predator management......if we had aggressive predator management there would be more moose to hunt ....less restrictions....less LEH...more hunter opportunity .


Stop making so much sense.

Seems it's far more exciting on here for everyone to argue about calf seasons and call people names for shooting young animals than it is to call your MLA and ask to make more moose for everyone with aggressive predator management.