Who Here Likes Hikin/Huntin/Camping In and Around Old-Growth-Forests

[HarryToolips]

Whether it be hikin, huntin, fishin or gold-panning out of some stream, I for one much rather be doing it in a old-growth forest instead of some clear-cut or replanted cut-block. At mid to higher elevations especially, I can't help but notice the amount of roads and clear-cuts everywhere. Due to my concern, I did a bit of research and found this:

http://www.fpb.gov.bc.ca/SIR36_Conserving_old_Growth_Forests_in_BC.pdf

I know that logging has a huge role in jobs and the BC economy, plus creates forage for ungulates etc, but like everything in life there's gotta be a balance. Plus old-growth is still important for ungulates and other creatures as well. All I hope is that they follow through with the recommendations on this report and preserve more old-growth forests, instead of always thinkin about the mighty $$..

[elknut]

A friend of mine years ago had a trapline ...He always checked out the upcoming projected log blocks for our area..He was flabbergasted when he found out his whole trapline was to be logged..He complained loudly and was told simply..The Forest Services intent is to log every loggable tree..I had friends in the Forest Service and they too were against this..We cannot control very much ..It seems it's pre ordained..

[HarryToolips]

A friend of mine years ago had a trapline ...He always checked out the upcoming projected log blocks for our area..He was flabbergasted when he found out his whole trapline was to be logged..He complained loudly and was told simply..The Forest Services intent is to log every loggable tree..I had friends in the Forest Service and they too were against this..We cannot control very much ..It seems it's pre ordained..
Ya that's pretty sad, according to this report the Ministry of Environment is supposed to preserve a certain percentage of old growth forests everywhere.. let's hope that this is not another thing the government screws up..I posted this because I'm sure that there's lots of outdoor enthusiasts out there that agree with my views, and if they care enough maybe they should write the Ministry of Environment and complain just like I did...

[OutWest]

Ya, those 50 year old "old growth" pine blocks in Region 5 are something else.

[BCLogger]

I can assure you that any old growth tree you see, unless it is in a park or private land, will be logged within the next 15 years...good luck stopping us :) And also, no one cares if the trees are getting cut or the environment is getting screwed,,,all we look at is our paycheque!

[monasheemountainman]

tellin it like it is, I like your honesty!

[Hunt-4-Life]

Good job trollin' there dude. If you want to find Moose look for old growth spruce.

[Westslope]

Plenty of old growth yet, just harder to find around logging roads, because the road was built for and payed for by the timber that was logged. As much as we would like roads that accessed pristine wilderness no one wants to pay the cost of building those roads except industry.

If you like hanging out in old-growth in managed forested areas (not parks or Ecological Reserves) I encourage you to highlight the Old Growth Management Areas link in Imap. This will show you were these exist and you can enjoy them to your hearts content. License holders are not allowed to log these unless they have a very good reason (safety, forest health), even if they have to log a portion it is typically constrained to 10% or 2ha whatever is less.

https://apps.gov.bc.ca/pub/geometadata/metadataDetail.do?recordUID=51680&recordSet=ISO19115

[panhead]

Flew up to Prince Rupert a few years ago to do some work and it was a beautiful clear flight all the way. Every single valley we passed over had a road into it and the valley bottoms were cleared. The harder to get wood on the sidehills was still standing. I think if you fly over Washington State you get a good picture of the future. Have a friend in Bella Coola who was a faller his whole life and now owns the last stand of old growth in the valley. I asked him one day why he doesn't take the profit. His reply was "I've been cutting these down my whole life and I kinda like lookin' at these." Bet I know what happens when he passes though ...

[two-feet]

Yes, all of the high quality, easily accessable timber will, or has been, taken. But the wood that does not pass the cost/benifit equation will not be logged. As the roads stretch further and further into the back country the cost to get the wood to the mills goes up and up, rising fuel prices also add to the cost of doing business. Therefore a marginal stand located 200km from the mill may not be cut where as the same stand 50km from the mill would be. This more applies to the northwest as the mills do not extend north of hwy 16.
The rate of cut is alarming and another example of short term profit taking vs sound long term management. The crazy beetle wood boom complicates it more. The moon-scape that much of the central interior has become is an experiment in the making.
To answer the original question. I love the old growth. It is becoming a rare treat to walk in old growth river valley spruce but there is not much better than spending time with those giants.
Maybe somebody on here knows where the province is in terms of harvesting the second growth? That would be interesting to know.

[elknut]

Ya, those 50 year old "old growth " pine blocks in Region 5 are something else......This is not what was logged..It was 2-300 year old spruce and huge pine ...20-26 inch at the butt..All gone now..Just drive out to Noname and Spanish and see the size of the standing butts..It started as a checkerboard then they came back and clearcutted the rest..This was when the beatle was in it's beginning..The Wilcox and Timothy are all gone..The Cariboo is decimated...The only real forest is the coast ..Those trees are just fantastic..I laugh when someone says a 300 year old tree is mature...On Vancouver island in the Nimkish at Vernon camp they have a cross section of a douglas fir that was cut down in 1958..It dates to 200 years...BEFORE CHRIST...Now thats mature..I know we can't save them all but surely we must save something..Who gave one or two generations the right to log all our forests out in 50 years!!!

[HarryToolips]

I can assure you that any old growth tree you see, unless it is in a park or private land, will be logged within the next 15 years...good luck stopping us :) And also, no one cares if the trees are getting cut or the environment is getting screwed,,,all we look at is our paycheque!
And here folks is an example of a person who is obviously not a true BCoutdoorsman...if he was, he would appreciate the old-growth forests..there should be a certain percentage of old growth stands everywhere in the province that are left untouched.. the province should instead be looking to log some of the replanted cutblocks that were planted way back and maybe are now ready for harvest.. if we can't find any of those, well then it's definitely not sustainable what were doin is it??? I would think an exception would be beetle-kill trees that have any value, those should be harvested...

[one-shot-wonder]

The flood gates are wide open on the timber market......My office is located on a haul route to the Tolko in town. every second truck is loaded with spruce, balsam and fir......so much for beetle salvage. Pretty sad the government is only thinking of a balanced budget in order to be re-elected for another term.....4 years is very short sighted in my opinion!

[one-shot-wonder]

http://digitalcollections.library.ubc.ca/cdm/singleitem/collection/westland/id/106/rec/3

a little dated but an interesting video on land use. 20 years later and?????

[Sofa King]

And here folks is an example of a person who is obviously not a true BCoutdoorsman...if he was, he would appreciate the old-growth forests..there should be a certain percentage of old growth stands everywhere in the province that are left untouched.. the province should instead be looking to log some of the replanted cutblocks that were planted way back and maybe are now ready for harvest.. if we can't find any of those, well then it's definitely not sustainable what were doin is it??? I would think an exception would be beetle-kill trees that have any value, those should be harvested...

how wrong you are.
so, are you saying that a logger, miner, or commercial fisherman can't be a BCoutdoorsman?
he can "appreciate" the trees and still do his job.
he "appreciates" that they put food on the table to feed his family.
sorry, but a tree standing is not more important than a person starving.

[two-feet]

Its like everything else you can name: the huge multinational companies some how "own" the rights to what belongs to every Canadian, exploit it to the breaking point, leave a big mess and then cry for subsidies when the resource is depleted. In the mean while average Joe is blessed with a wage he can live on for as long as the resource lasts. The multinational makes its billions and our land base gets degraded. Forestry, fishing, mining, farming etc etc.
sorry for the rant

[avadad]

Aldo Leopold is rolling in his grave...
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/43828.Aldo_Leopold

[avadad]

Its like everything else you can name: the huge multinational companies some how "own" the rights to what belongs to every Canadian, exploit it to the breaking point, leave a big mess and then cry for subsidies when the resource is depleted. In the mean while average Joe is blessed with a wage he can live on for as long as the resource lasts. The multinational makes its billions and our land base gets degraded. Forestry, fishing, mining, farming etc etc.
sorry for the rant

No need to be sorry. Your just speaking the truth.

[Sofa King]

Its like everything else you can name: the huge multinational companies some how "own" the rights to what belongs to every Canadian, exploit it to the breaking point, leave a big mess and then cry for subsidies when the resource is depleted. In the mean while average Joe is blessed with a wage he can live on for as long as the resource lasts. The multinational makes its billions and our land base gets degraded. Forestry, fishing, mining, farming etc etc.
sorry for the rant

and where would our countries economy be if the logging, mining, etc stopped?

[two-feet]

and where would our countries economy be if the logging, mining, etc stopped?

I have been employed in resource based jobs my whole life, firefighting, logging, mining, log building. I just feel there are better ways to use our resources than the rape and pillage and sell raw materials for bottom dollar model that has so successfully cut down all of our trees, caught all our fish and left so many families caught in the boom/bust cycle. Ask the Newfies how it worked out for their fishery.

[HarryToolips]

how wrong you are.
so, are you saying that a logger, miner, or commercial fisherman can't be a BCoutdoorsman?
he can "appreciate" the trees and still do his job.
he "appreciates" that they put food on the table to feed his family.
sorry, but a tree standing is not more important than a person starving.
That's not what I'm saying at all, in fact one of my best friends is a logger.. I was making reference to BClogger's attitude toward it.. he obviously doesn't care if all old-growth is logged, whereas a real BCoutdoorsman would want a certain percentage of old-growth left un-touched like myself.. I don't think loggin should totally stop, I think a certain percentage of old-growth should be left alone everywhere, and if we've logged down to that percentage, we should then only be loggin replanted blocks that have grown enough to be harvested..

[HarryToolips]

I have been employed in resource based jobs my whole life, firefighting, logging, mining, log building. I just feel there are better ways to use our resources than the rape and pillage and sell raw materials for bottom dollar model that has so successfully cut down all of our trees, caught all our fish and left so many families caught in the boom/bust cycle. Ask the Newfies how it worked out for their fishery.
Exactly..a big problem with our society in my opinion is we always gotta be buildin buildin buildin all the time.. why can't we just sustain what we already have.. as soon as we stop buildin our economy goes down the pits..

[Westslope]

I see this thread so similar to many others here on HBC. It would be wise to stop and read what people say instead of just blundering on with an opinion. What you are proposing Harrytoolips is already in place! Its so easy to overlook facts when you have an axe to grind, I doubt many if any people that are posting on this subject have actually done research and looked at the science that is behind the current management of resources in BC.

For the most part we are in a clean-up mode from previous generations of poor management decisions in the natural resource sector and are working towards something better. So if you are an older guy who is retired and busy bitching about not having any old growth to drive around in than maybe you should have done something and advocated for change when you were younger, the old ideal of closing the door after the horse gets out applies here. Forest Licensee's weren't even really responsible for reforestation of logged areas until 1987, not to say forests weren't getting planted but, it was basically the governments (taxpayers) responsibility. So for the older axe grinders on here, why didn't you say something then?

What we are doing today is easily the best it has ever been, although I will be first to admit it's not perfect and still needs substantial improvements as with all management of natural things it is a work in progress. If you want to change things get involved with the process, go to meetings, speak with professionals, get the facts and make cases based on that, not just "I drove around once and seen a big clearcut" or the "multinationals are raping our forests" if you did some research on these points you would see there is a whole lot more of a story here than meets the eye. Forests and minerals, oil and gas are BC residents property and it's in our best interest to manage them well. You can't grind for a change if your opinion is so far from reality that no one will take you seriously. To make an informed argument you better damn well be informed!

My rant..

[BCLogger]

...whereas a real BCoutdoorsman would want a certain percentage of old-growth left un-touched like myself...

...and that, my friend, is exactly why there's reserves called Parks :mrgreen:

[HarryToolips]

I see this thread so similar to many others here on HBC. It would be wise to stop and read what people say instead of just blundering on with an opinion. What you are proposing Harrytoolips is already in place! Its so easy to overlook facts when you have an axe to grind, I doubt many if any people that are posting on this subject have actually done research and looked at the science that is behind the current management of resources in BC.

For the most part we are in a clean-up mode from previous generations of poor management decisions in the natural resource sector and are working towards something better. So if you are an older guy who is retired and busy bitching about not having any old growth to drive around in than maybe you should have done something and advocated for change when you were younger, the old ideal of closing the door after the horse gets out applies here. Forest Licensee's weren't even really responsible for reforestation of logged areas until 1987, not to say forests weren't getting planted but, it was basically the governments (taxpayers) responsibility. So for the older axe grinders on here, why didn't you say something then?

What we are doing today is easily the best it has ever been, although I will be first to admit it's not perfect and still needs substantial improvements as with all management of natural things it is a work in progress. If you want to change things get involved with the process, go to meetings, speak with professionals, get the facts and make cases based on that, not just "I drove around once and seen a big clearcut" or the "multinationals are raping our forests" if you did some research on these points you would see there is a whole lot more of a story here than meets the eye. Forests and minerals, oil and gas are BC residents property and it's in our best interest to manage them well. You can't grind for a change if your opinion is so far from reality that no one will take you seriously. To make an informed argument you better damn well be informed!

My rant..

I am 31 years old, and have complained about it for a long time... I belong to the Peachland Sportsman's Club, go to meetings, and I will be bringing this topic up once I get a response back from the Ministry of Environment, I e-mailed them my concerns about a month ago, and I will be doing a follow-up e-mail to them soon enough if I have not heard..and yes I have done my research, I read the entire 40 somethin page report that I made the link to at the start of this thread..Thanks

[Westslope]

Ok Harry, I see you have done some research in reading that FREP report - excellent source of information for sure. So are you specifically concerned with there not being enough old growth management areas? Do you feel that these areas that are being chosen to be OGMAs are not capturing the original intent? How are you defining old growth in the interior sense (age, species composition etc)?

Many of the ecosystems in the interior have traditionally been managed by fire or insects that lead to dead timber and bigger fires (Natural Disturbance Type 4). Traditionally speaking I don't believe that pure stands of "old growth" timber made up a huge component of timbered areas as a whole in the interior.

If you have specific concerns I would continue to do what your doing but, you may want to get in touch the with MFLNRO as well, they will likely have a bit better grasp on what the landscape level objectives are for your area regarding timber harvest. You can also look into some of the reports published by the Forest Practices Board as well there might be some interesting stuff for you on the ABCFP website.

[HarryToolips]

Thanks for all your comments and concerns Westslope, glad you care as well..I am worried that the Ministry will not follow through with the recommendations on this report and preserve OGMA's (Old Growth Management Areas) everywhere, I am concerned they will only look at the mighty $$ and just mow em all down, without considering their ecological importance to a huge variety of creatures...

[two-feet]

We all care, hopefully most of those on this sight would consider themselves conservationists first and hunters second. For some reason I don't see Canfor or Westfraser etc in the same light. Their end goal is a financial one. Where as we see a beautiful stand of timber up a river valley they see "fiber". These big companies would NEVER change their practices unless it made them more money or they were forced to by the govt. Forgive me for not having faith in the big companies or for thinking that the little guy has much of a voice. I also write letters and try to get involved but it is a David vs Goliath scenario. And when you have guys that will happily cut the last old growth tree for his paycheque then we have problems. I wish I could have seen the land as my grandpa saw it and I hope my grandkids can see it as I have.
As stated, I am not against development. I just feel we need to choose the right projects and keep the pace to a sustainable level.

[HarryToolips]

We all care, hopefully most of those on this sight would consider themselves conservationists first and hunters second. For some reason I don't see Canfor or Westfraser etc in the same light. Their end goal is a financial one. Where as we see a beautiful stand of timber up a river valley they see "fiber". These big companies would NEVER change their practices unless it made them more money or they were forced to by the govt. Forgive me for not having faith in the big companies or for thinking that the little guy has much of a voice. I also write letters and try to get involved but it is a David vs Goliath scenario. And when you have guys that will happily cut the last old growth tree for his paycheque then we have problems. I wish I could have seen the land as my grandpa saw it and I hope my grandkids can see it as I have.
As stated, I am not against development. I just feel we need to choose the right projects and keep the pace to a sustainable level.
I'm with ya 1000% bud!

[boxhitch]

Here ya go HT
maybe some indication which way the BC Gov't leans on environmental protection

cpawsbc.org/news/changes-to-park-act-condemned-by-environmentalists-for-threats-to-protected