question for keyboard lawyers

[Samsquantch]

If I shoot from one leh area where im not allowed to tag an animal into another area where I am allowed to tag an animal am I breaking the law?
Technically im not hunting animals in the area im not allowed to be in correct? Just a thought.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I would say as long as the animal is in your zone you are good to go....as long as you're not in a National Park or something like that.

But don't trust what I say.

SSS

[.330 Dakota]

Must be shooting across a road,,,big no no, or across a river?

[ryanb]

Could be height of land too. I'd say you AND the animal need to be in the appropriate zone.

Disclaimer: This legal opinion is worth what you paid for it.

[Dannybuoy]

I'd say just the animal needs to be in the appropriate zone


Disclaimer: This legal opinion is worth what you paid for it

[rocksteady]

I think you are splittin proverbial hairs...

[4 point]

My uneducated guess is it would not be ok. But of course could be wrong.

[panhead]

I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot ...

[RiverOtter]

I'd be more concerned about shooting an animal in your zone and having it run/swim into another.....

Likely a moot point, either way, as you'd have a clear conscience knowing you shot it in your zone and would have no need to get a CO involved.

[ru rancher]

id say its mostly an ethics thing personally id say it would be fine sice the draw is for that zone and you are there to control the population in that zone doesnt matter if your in the zone or not just how i look at it of course accros roads and such are of limits thats just dangerouse but thats just my thinking on that one

[moosecaller]

If you are standing in Canada and shoot a Canadian moose across the boarder which you saw run from Canada into the US is it legal? Same thing you are out of your zone, therefore illegal. The yanks would hang you from the nearest tree.

[RiverOtter]

If you are standing in Canada and shoot a Canadian moose across the boarder which you saw run from Canada into the US is it legal? Same thing you are out of your zone, therefore illegal. The yanks would hang you from the nearest tree.
Totally different scenario......

And besides he's killing the animal in his LEH zone while standing in another, not standing in his zone and shooting into a closed one......

[Gateholio]

I think you may be illegally hunting. Not sure though as it's certainly legal to glass from LEH zone to another.

[Fred1]

Just my guess... I would guess you are hunting illegally. My reasoning is, are you not hunting from the point at which you are standing? I am very curious to the answer to this. I hunt a region where this scenario is possible and it could open some doors.

Disclaimer: I took Law in grade 9... got a C- ....

[r106]

I don't see a problem with it. But legally I would think it's a no no? It would be tough to explain to CO why your tag is for Zone A but physically your in Zone B

[dana]

I've often thought about this situation, as there are many areas where a river is the boundary between 2 units. Being on one side and shooting across to the other is very doable in many areas. Could be a matter of a short distance even like under 30 metres. Discharging a firearm in most areas is not an offense unless it is a highway restriction or park. So if the animal is in the right area for the LEH tag, does where the shot comes from matter?

[albravo2]

I bet most CO would have trouble answering this one.

I would argue that the important thing is the location of the animal when shot. Not where it was shot from OR where it wandered after it was shot.

Curious if one of our resident COs will offer an opinion on this.

[j270wsm]

Pretty sure both hunter and hunted must be in the zone the tag is good for.

[dana]

So if you are on a sandbar in the middle of a river and that river is the boundary between 2 units, can you still shoot a moose standing 20 yards from ya on the shore of the unit you have a tag for??? What if the moose was on the same sandbar as you?

[Ambush]

I think you'd be looking for a fine. If you shoot you are hunting and your standing in the wrong area, which means you are hunting in an area not open to you to hunt.

[j270wsm]

So if you are on a sandbar in the middle of a river and that river is the boundary between 2 units, can you still shoot a moose standing 20 yards from ya on the shore of the unit you have a tag for??? What if the moose was on the same sandbar as you?

What side of the river is the boundary? As far as I know, most boundaries don't start until the high water mark, If my assumption of where the boundary starts is correct, then you and the moose would be in fair territory.

[Gateholio]

Someone email McIvor :)

[dana]

Why are you not allowed to hunt in the unit you are standing in? While you might have an Any Bull LEH tag for the adjacent unit, could it not still be open for Spike/Fork Moose in the unit you are standing in. Perhaps deer are open, coyotes, wolves???? The animal you have a LEH tag for is not the only reason hunting exists for the hunter right? If the animal is standing in the unit you have a tag for, what makes discharging a firearm in the unit you are standing in illegal? If the argument is because you are hunting, then read the definition of hunting. Read it and read it again. Can you glass from one unit into another? Is that not looking for an animal with the intent to kill it? Should we be afraid of being ticketed with a pair of binos or a spotter in the wrong unit for our tag????

[Sofa King]

if the animal is open in the other region, then you should be hunting it in that region.
why would you be in the other one if you are hunting that animal?
how would anyone prove where you shot it from anyway?

[Ambush]

Why are you not allowed to hunt in the unit you are standing in? While you might have an Any Bull LEH tag for the adjacent unit, could it not still be open for Spike/Fork Moose in the unit you are standing in. Perhaps deer are open, coyotes, wolves???? The animal you have a LEH tag for is not the only reason hunting exists for the hunter right? If the animal is standing in the unit you have a tag for, what makes discharging a firearm in the unit you are standing in illegal? If the argument is because you are hunting, then read the definition of hunting. Read it and read it again. Can you glass from one unit into another? Is that not looking for an animal with the intent to kill it? Should we be afraid of being ticketed with a pair of binos or a spotter in the wrong unit for our tag????

I was referring to the animal you just shot in the zone you are not standing in, not just "hunting' in general.

[ACE]

We rolled a few rocks and spooked some Bighorn rams from Alberta into BC ...... didn't shoot.

[moosecaller]

Totally different scenario......

And besides he's killing the animal in his LEH zone while standing in another, not standing in his zone and shooting into a closed one......

My point was he is in one area shooting into another..... illegal! Be it from one zone to another or one country to another NO difference it's illegal. He is not licensed to shoot from one area into another area for a legal kill just the one the LEH is authorized to.

[ACE]

My point was he is in one area shooting into another..... illegal! Be it from one zone to another or one country to another NO difference it's illegal. He is not licensed to shoot from one area into another area for a legal kill just the one the LEH is authorized to.

Agree ....... makes sense.

[ru rancher]

My point was he is in one area shooting into another..... illegal! Be it from one zone to another or one country to another NO difference it's illegal. He is not licensed to shoot from one area into another area for a legal kill just the one the LEH is authorized to.
maybe you should post the link to the regs that say that if you are so sure personaly never read anything that supports your point. and thats why i say its more of an ethics thing.

[*bcgold*]

What happens if you have a leh for moose in zone A and you shoot it and it doesn't drop. You track a half decent blood trail for a click and you end up finding it in zone B?

[Gun Dog]

I would say that YOU are hunting from where ever you are. If you're in a NO HUNTING area then you shouldn't be hunting.

The game you are hunting must be in an area where it can be hunted.


From the Wildlife Act, Management Unit Regulation:
River or creek as boundary
2 (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a river or creek, or any part of a river or creek, forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the right hand bank of the river as you face downstream.

(2) If any part of the West Road (Blackwater) River, Liard River or the Peace River forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the left hand bank of the river as you face downstream.

[Mulehahn]

I would think that it is legal as you would be cutting your tag (harvesting) the animal in which the LEH is authorized for. We have had the discussion many times on here to only cut your tag when the animal is recovered. As has been stated LEHs are for population control in the zones they apply. If the animal is taken in that zone it should not matter where it was shot from.

[ru rancher]

I would say that YOU are hunting from where ever you are. If you're in a NO HUNTING area then you shouldn't be hunting.

The game you are hunting must be in an area where it can be hunted.


From the Wildlife Act, Management Unit Regulation:
River or creek as boundary


2 (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a river or creek, or any part of a river or creek, forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the right hand bank of the river as you face downstream.

(2) If any part of the West Road (Blackwater) River, Liard River or the Peace River forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the left hand bank of the river as you face downstream.

so yes they said the game was in the area so we agree there. the rest of that boundry stuff says nothing about shooting across it

[moosecaller]

maybe you should post the link to the regs that say that if you are so sure personaly never read anything that supports your point. and thats why i say its more of an ethics thing.

Plead a legal case on ethics that will get you virtually nowhere in the legal system..."your honour I felt I was speeding ethically and therefore should not be fined for my infraction"? Ethics and law are two very different things. Show me where ethics can override and take precedence above the law? Back to you.

[RiverOtter]

My point was he is in one area shooting into another..... illegal! Be it from one zone to another or one country to another NO difference it's illegal. He is not licensed to shoot from one area into another area for a legal kill just the one the LEH is authorized to.

Well then, I sure hope you don't get caught with a rifle slung over your shoulder and binoculars up to your face looking at a moose across the boundary.....

Based on the definition of "Hunting" you could be deemed illegal......

[RiverOtter]

As per rivers, creeks and lakes as boundaries, the lines are usually drawn mid stream......

Dana's sand bar argument might very well come down to the number of hooves in the zone at the time the trigger trips.........:mrgreen:

[Gateholio]

I think this is one of the things that isn't spelled out clearly in any regulation and would need to be interpreted. I actually found myself wondering about this situation a number of years ago when I could have shot a ram across the Fraser. Was standing in no LEH area, ram was in legal zone. I didn't shoot for a number of reasons, but did wonder about it.

I also wonder if this is merely an academic discussion as a) the spirit of the law as the animal is in the zone it's supposed to be. And b) unless it's a very public area, who is even going to notice? :)

[Philcott]

Good topic and interesting to think about.


From the Wildlife Act, Management Unit Regulation:River or creek as boundary




2 (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a river or creek, or any part of a river or creek, forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the right hand bank of the river as you face downstream.


(2) If any part of the West Road (Blackwater) River, Liard River or the Peace River forms a part of the boundary of a management unit, that part of the boundary is conclusively deemed to follow the left hand bank of the river as you face downstream.

I've never really taken note of this information in the past. Thanks for posting it.

[steel_ram]

So what if you shoot in the original scenario and the wounded animal runs into the zone (the wrong zone) of which you are standing in? Then if caught, your pooched . . . . . aren't we all bored.

[TPK]

I would error on the side of this being illegal ... you are hunting for an animal (or class of animal .. ie: antler restriction) in a zone closed to that animal or antler configuration. The animal is in a zone where it can be hunted but you are not in a zone that allows you to hunt that animal.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Now that you mention it....I did the exact same thing.
I shot a ram in an open area across a river while I was standing in a closed area. CO knew about it but I don't think it crossed either of our minds at the time.

SSS

I think this is one of the things that isn't spelled out clearly in any regulation and would need to be interpreted. I actually found myself wondering about this situation a number of years ago when I could have shot a ram across the Fraser. Was standing in no LEH area, ram was in legal zone. I didn't shoot for a number of reasons, but did wonder about it.

I also wonder if this is merely an academic discussion as a) the spirit of the law as the animal is in the zone it's supposed to be. And b) unless it's a very public area, who is even going to notice? :)

[ru rancher]

Plead a legal case on ethics that will get you virtually nowhere in the legal system..."your honour I felt I was speeding ethically and therefore should not be fined for my infraction"? Ethics and law are two very different things. Show me where ethics can override and take precedence above the law? Back to you.
i never said ethics would make anything that was illegal legal just simply said it would be your decision as to shot accross a boundry or not because theres no law against it. just to help you sleep at night!

[ru rancher]

so how can people legally hunt with jet boats on the fraser? i dont know all the laws around it because iv never had the desire but as long as they are driffting its legal to shot no matter what side of the river they are on. it would be illegal if shooting across a boundry was illegal because of the previous post stating where the boundrys are!

[dana]

Here's another one to chew on. 400 metre shooting restriction from said road. You drop down into a draw with a meadow in the bottom. Meadow is 300 metres from said road. You hike to another meadow more than a km from the said road but don't see a moose. You turn around and start hiking back towards your vehicle on the said road. When you are 200 metres from the first meadow you see a spike moose standing in that meadow. The GPS says you are 500 metres horizontal distance from the said road. Can you legally shoot the moose? You are outside the shooting restriction but the moose isn't.

[Fred1]

Boom! :)

[Dannybuoy]

Here's another one to chew on. 400 metre shooting restriction from said road. You drop down into a draw with a meadow in the bottom. Meadow is 300 metres from said road. You hike to another meadow more than a km from the said road but don't see a moose. You turn around and start hiking back towards your vehicle on the said road. When you are 200 metres from the first meadow you see a spike moose standing in that meadow. The GPS says you are 500 metres horizontal distance from the said road. Can you legally shoot the moose? You are outside the shooting restriction but the moose isn't.

Yes ! its the discharge of the firearm that must be 400 m from the road not the animal .

[180grainer]

It's an interesting argument. The LEH agreement is that the animal must be killed in "X" area. No stipulation on where the assassin must be. Just an implied assumption based on modern hunting capabilities that he/she must be fairly close. There is no law stating you couldn't whack a nice Stone with a drone......

[Rich_D]

Yes ! its the discharge of the firearm that must be 400 m from the road not the animal .

Was about to type the same thing so I'll just give a X2 and that's that.

Would be nice to hear what a CO (or better yet, 5 or 10 CO's and get an average "professional opinion") thinks about this hypothetical scenario.

Even asking 2 or 3 CO's would probably result in the same diversity we are encountering here.

It's not listed in the reg's as a rule so is it not then legal to shoot the animal in Zone A from Zone B when the legal Zone is in fact A?

[ru rancher]

Here's another one to chew on. 400 metre shooting restriction from said road. You drop down into a draw with a meadow in the bottom. Meadow is 300 metres from said road. You hike to another meadow more than a km from the said road but don't see a moose. You turn around and start hiking back towards your vehicle on the said road. When you are 200 metres from the first meadow you see a spike moose standing in that meadow. The GPS says you are 500 metres horizontal distance from the said road. Can you legally shoot the moose? You are outside the shooting restriction but the moose isn't.
id say nothing rong with this one because it has more to do with how far a bullet can fly past an object it is fired at. of course they can go way farther then 400m but you got to draw the line somewhere right

[Mulehahn]

Here's another one to chew on. 400 metre shooting restriction from said road. You drop down into a draw with a meadow in the bottom. Meadow is 300 metres from said road. You hike to another meadow more than a km from the said road but don't see a moose. You turn around and start hiking back towards your vehicle on the said road. When you are 200 metres from the first meadow you see a spike moose standing in that meadow. The GPS says you are 500 metres horizontal distance from the said road. Can you legally shoot the moose? You are outside the shooting restriction but the moose isn't.

I can not see how it would be illegal, however, unless I misunderstand what you are saying, it strikes me as being more dangerous and defeating the purpose of the law. I would much rather have someone stand in the middle of the road and shoot at a target 500yds off of it than stand 500yds off of the road and shoot towards it.

[Kopper]

Dana how I see your question is: under the highway shooting allowance it says it is unlawful to discharge a firearm across or discharge a firearm or hunt within that allowance. Under the definition of hunt it includes shooting at; as I understand it that would be illegal, right? Correct me if ya think I'm wrong.

[Whonnock Boy]

I would not hesitate shooting an animal in one zone from another. Until I hear otherwise, it will be business as usual.

[Kopper]

Oh, as for the original question the regs are pretty clear on what hunting is. On this matter the regs don't discrimate from mu to mu. If you shoot from the zone or mu you don't have the LEH permit for to the zone or mu you do have the permit for you still are indeed hunting; which would be unlawful. It's called a limited entry "hunting" permit because it allows you to hunt a species where otherwise there would be a closed season (or antler/horn restrictions); and we all know you can't hunt in a closed area lol. Just my 2 cents...;)

[dana]

Dana how I see your question is: under the highway shooting allowance it says it is unlawful to discharge a firearm across or discharge a firearm or hunt within that allowance. Under the definition of hunt it includes shooting at; as I understand it that would be illegal, right? Correct me if ya think I'm wrong.

Most shooting restrictions are not hunting restrictions. Many you can shoot a bow or a shotgun within them.

As for the saftey aspect of the scenario I described, you and the moose would be down in a draw and the road above you. I also mentioned horizontal distance as that is what a GPS Go To would show, but with slope distance, you can be quite a bit further, especially if it is a very steep slope coming down to the meadow. For the average joe who hasn't much experience correcting slope distance to horizontal distance, it might be hard to understand. But for a guy like me who has tight chained many a cable block, it is easy to see how sometimes you have to climb 70 metres to pull tight 50 . ;) Shooting restrictions are slope distance not horizontal distance.

[yama49]

Oh, as for the original question the regs are pretty clear on what hunting is. On this matter the regs don't discrimate from mu to mu. If you shoot from the zone or mu you don't have the LEH permit for to the zone or mu you do have the permit for you still are indeed hunting; which would be unlawful. It's called a limited entry "hunting" permit because it allows you to hunt a species where otherwise there would be a closed season (or antler/horn restrictions); and we all know you can't hunt in a closed area lol. Just my 2 cents...;)


I disagree,who says your hunting in the MU, might be using it as a travel corridor, or its open season in that MU. I believe its is, where you kill the animal...

[boxhitch]

I believe its is, where you kill the animal...The only reasonable answer.
Why would anyone care where the shot came from , if the target animal is in the zone covered by the permit ? The point of the leh permit is to allow the killing of a critter , inn many cases as a management tool , not to limit the travel or viewing by the hunter.

[deer nut]

Not gonna happen.....

[Kopper]

Damn I thought I nailed those lol. Dana I did not take into account slope into the question. My bad.
Cheers.

[msawyer]

The wildlife act defines hunt as follows:

"hunt" includes shooting at, attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following after or on the trail of, stalking or lying in wait for wildlife, or attempting to do any of those things, whether or not the wildlife is then or subsequently wounded, killed or captured, [emphasis added]

(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or
(b) while in possession of a firearm or other weapon;

Then check section 11 of the wildlife Act... busted!!!

[ru rancher]

i see it as simple as this when you go in to check in your sheep they dont ask where did you shoot this ram from they ask where was this ram when it died simple as that couldve bin a kilometer away they could care less!

[Xenomorph]

This is actually interesting enough to worth doing a little bit of research. I'll look into it.

[Xenomorph]

i see it as simple as this when you go in to check in your sheep they dont ask where did you shoot this ram from they ask where was this ram when it died simple as that couldve bin a kilometer away they could care less!


I tend to agree with this unless you are in a NO DISCHARGE area taking a shot to an animal in your licensed LEH should be legal and allowed.

[ru rancher]

I tend to agree with this unless you are in a NO DISCHARGE area taking a shot to an animal in your licensed LEH should be legal and allowed.
i totaly agree as long as its legal to discharge the gun then there cant be anything against it

[Pemby_mess]

I ran into this question in October. A partner headed up to a ridge line that was the break for two different MUs. One side was "any buck", the other- "4 point" antler restriction. We were glassing into the "any buck" region when a two point blacktail buck with trailing does travelled along a parallel ridge up and over the dividing ridge perpendicular to us, into the 4 point region. We didn't take a shot for a few reasons but this exact question was on our minds and was the sole reason we didn't pursue.

Our feeling was that we could take the two point If the situation was opposite. Ie: we were shooting from the four point region into "any buck". We were also using google earth to give us the boundary line and weren't completely sure how accurate it was. Confusing to say the least.

[TPK]

Well, I asked our local CO and here's his response ...
"You got it right, it would be illegal, and your reasoning is spot on. A person needs to be standing in the area open for hunting before they can pull the trigger.
It works both ways as well. A person can’t be standing in an open area and shoot an animal that is standing in a closed area. For this I am thinking of a person standing beyond the minimum distance required to hunt near a maintained road, but shooting an animal that is standing within the minimum distance.

Hope that helps. "

Conservation Officer Jeff Piwek
Quesnel | Conservation Officer Service | Ministry of Environment

[cruiser]

Shooting restrictions are slope distance not horizontal distance.

Interesting, I never noticed slope distance being specified in the regs and always assumed that ALL legal distances are horizontal distance :confused: Can see how it would be easier on guys in the field to not have to think about correcting for slope.

[BRvalley]

thanks for taking the time to email a CO....now if we ask 2 more co's, will we get the same answer? lol

[Fred1]

Nice! :)

[Dannybuoy]

While the CO is correct in what he answered "A person needs to be standing in the area open for hunting before they can pull the trigger" No-one said the area was closed to hunting , but only that a LEH tag was for the adjacent zone . So I still believe it would be legal to shoot from one zone to another provided both zone were open to shooting/hunting .