.223 for deer?

[guywitha270]

Hey guys. I'm wanting to buy a rifle in a smaller caliber. Both for me to have fun and to get my daughter into shooting. Leaning towards .223 for it's versatility. I plan on using a 55 gr. Barnes TTSX or a Winchester 95/5 in a 64 gr. The Winchester site says the 95/5 is intended for deer. Thoughts? I know that the Barnes seems a little light but I also know they hit like a freight train. Anyone hunt with either of these small bullets?

[Mugger]

How old is your daughter, I recommend 243 or 308 with shells you can buy that have reduced powder and recoil. I have three daughters and started them with .22 during saftey training and shooting then advanced to 243 for deer hunting. My 14 year old carried my 7mm for a moose hunt with a bipod on it. Many options out there and many opinions. Engoy this time with your kids and keep shooting fun, many different types of targets to keep them in to it.

[Gateholio]

I know the Barnes will completely penetrate a deer. It will make nice clean kills if you and your daughter do your part. Not much margin for error with a .223, so keep that in mind.

[mike-juliet]

Lots of people in the states love .223 for whitetail hunting. I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting a gun that small out west for deer. I have no doubt that with modern bullet offerings and precise shot placement you can ethically kill a mule deer with a .223. With that being said I believe we all as ethical hunters owe it to the animal to use a cartridge that has enough kinetic energy to ethically kill an animal with less than perfect shot placement. Because of this I usually suggest the minimum of a .243 for Western deer hunting. For introducing your daughter to firearms I would pick up a Savage Mk. 2 bolt action .22LR to help her learn the fundamentals of shooting.

[lovemywinchester]

I killed two bucks in 12 with the 55 g Hornady. Killed them both no problem. One thing to keep in mind is that the entry and exit holes are so small with the 22 bullet you will have little blood if you need to track it. If you are close to the animal its going through for sure.

https://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-55-GR-GMX-Superformance/

[guywitha270]

My daughter already has a 22lr and is a good shot with it. Good point about the blood trailing issue though, hadn't thought of that one. Thanks for the tip!

[835]

IMO too small. Yes it will kill them fine, but like Gate has said... there is no room for error.
.243 7-08 308 etc.

when i started hunting,,, as a kid. i used a .284. I dont think people give kids enough credit to handle recoil. Obviously everyone is different. But if your daughter is quite driven you shouldnt have a problem.

Google "Recoil chart" it will give you some compairisons.

just to add.. That "room for error"
Remember that your daughter is new. so when you guys have found that nice lil buck she is going to be super excited. You might need that room for error. That .223 would work fine in the hands of a guy who is calm enough to pic the perfect shot. I just cant see it being a good idea in the hands of a kid, no matter how much range time the kid has. Id rather spend that range time with a cartridge that has more punch so when they get all wound up ( like they should!) and smoke the shoulder the bullet has a better chance of killing.

[recoil]

I would look at getting a 308 and using decreased loads until she is comfortable with it, will be much better in the long run especially if she ever decides to go after a bear or immy. I bet after a couple of trips to the range you could switch it up to the full power stuff and she wouldn't even notice.

I would shoot a blacktail with a .223 but you are taking your chances with a mature 300lb+ interior muley, they can soak up a fair amount of lead sometimes, even with a good lung hit.

http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-125-gr-SST-Custom-Lite/

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=736

[Jagermeister]

.223 is too small for deer unless you're shooting bambi'.
Step it up to a .243Win, you will be better off.

[KodiakHntr]

Think bullets....Not headstamps.

Have shot deer and black bear with a 223AI, and seen deer shot with a 223 and 22-250, 45gr tsx's, 53gr tsx's, 55gr soft points, 64gr power points, etc etc etc......

I firmly believe there hasn't been the deer built yet that will shake off a tsx of any size from a 223 when put squarely on the shoulder. Or head on. Or quartering.

Watched a rather nice whitetail tip over in my field this year, shot with a 53gr tsx as he ran as hard as he could go quartering for the trees. Hit just ahead of the last rib, and ended up in his neck after breaking some ribs and vertebrae. That one was somewhere around 176 yards, IIRC. Saw a very large bodied muley take a 45 tsx a couple years back (gf's first buck) from a 223AI square through the shoulders. Bang flop.

Use a well constructed bullet, put bullets in the front half of the deer, and kill them. I'd not be concerned on shooting a deer (of ANY size) using a TSX/TTSX up to around 300 yards.

(That said, the 243 is one hell of a capable killer cartridge. Every hunter should own at least one in my opinion.)

[3centsolution]

Nobody has mentioned the 6.5x55 yet, pretty much 0 recoil with the lighter 120-130gr bullets and deer do nor walk away from it. Is has been used extensively for moose in Finland with the heavier bullets.

[coach]

While I'm sure the .223 is more than capable of doing the job, the risk of losing an injured animal isn't worth it, IMO. Having introduced 4 youngsters to hunting in the last few years, I've tried multiple calibers. I now own a couple of 7-08's in youth models (one Tikka and one Marlin). Combined with a pabst recoil pad, that they wear over their jacket, all of the kids have been extremely comfortable with the 7-08.

[sawmill]

Last thing you want is your daughters first buck to be a shitshow.Get a .243.Besides,a .243 with 100 gr. will take an elk or even a moose.
I shoot a .243 Browning lever gun for deer and I LOVE it.Deadly accurate,fun to shoot(low recoil)inexpensive if you buy factory,which is all I shoot and you can get shells for it almost anywhere.
Three damn nice 5x5 whities on my wall,all with .243 and all one shot kills.I didn't dump a ton of money on a scope either.Bushnell 3200.Great glass for the money.
.223 is a varmint gun.
The .243 will last her a lifetime.

[325]

If all I had was a 223, I would use it, but I agree with others, a 243 would be a huge step-up, with manageable recoil.

[hunter1993ap]

what about a muzzle brake? I know when I was ten the 243 we had booted me hard, I didn't feel comfortable with it. but my dad had a 7mm rem mag with a muzzle brake and it was comfortable to shoot. the first animal I shot was with a 223 because this was what I had spent all my time practicing with. it was a 5'5 black bear. I put the first round right dead center in the chest, and put a lot more rounds in him before he died. not that he wouldn't have died from the first shot.. right after that I started using the 7mm. I am glad I did because in the field things happen quick and are never perfect. its now the only rifle I use and has killed a lot of animals for me. if you did go with a bigger caliber with a muzzle brake it is a way to get her used to one rifle and stick with it for a long time. but I know lots of guys are dead set against muzzle brakes. so this is up to you. I'm glad I learned this way because being new to the game you will make mistakes. and sometimes the little extra a large caliber gives you is all you need.

even tho the guys online tell you if you do your part and put the bullet where its supposed to go things will be fine. the truth is this doesn't always happen, people are not saints, like some on this site, and things do go wrong. and when things go wrong in the field what is better?? a small caliber that can get the job done if everything is perfect. or a large caliber that will give you the extra oomph when you need it?

[sawmill]

Nobody needs a muzzle break on a .243.
Get a good one,I only know Browning,outstanding but pricey.

[sawmill]

Oh,by the way,a bad shot is a bad shot.A.500 Nitro express might fix it but..............
It ain`t what you shoot,it`s how you shoot.Bigger cal. won`t make it right.
Good all round gun for the kid and practice,practise.

[hunter1993ap]

Nobody needs a muzzle break on a .243.
Get a good one,I only know Browning,outstanding but pricey.

I wasn't talking about a 243. put a brake on a larger caliber and use it to learn on and once you grow into. like a 7mm or a 30 06. I only have to use one rifle and have used it since I have been ten years old.

[Gateholio]

I shot a black bear with a 223 at about 175 yards.

It died.

[hunter1993ap]

Oh,by the way,a bad shot is a bad shot.A.500 Nitro express might fix it but..............
It ain`t what you shoot,it`s how you shoot.Bigger cal. won`t make it right.
Good all round gun for the kid and practice,practise.

I disagree. if you are a couple inches back and hit the liver you figure there is no difference b/w a 223 and lets say a 300 win?

[KodiakHntr]

Last thing you want is your daughters first buck to be a shitshow.Get a .243.Besides,a .243 with 100 gr. will take an elk or even a moose.
I shoot a .243 Browning lever gun for deer and I LOVE it.Deadly accurate,fun to shoot(low recoil)inexpensive if you buy factory,which is all I shoot and you can get shells for it almost anywhere.
Three damn nice 5x5 whities on my wall,all with .243 and all one shot kills.I didn't dump a ton of money on a scope either.Bushnell 3200.Great glass for the money.
.223 is a varmint gun.
The .243 will last her a lifetime.

While I don't disagree with you, and I'd have zero qualms with shooting a moose or elk with a 243, will you read what you just wrote?!?!?! A 223 spitting a 62gr ttsx or 75gr amax isn't enough for a 300lb deer, but a 100gr sp at the same speed is ok for an animal that's three times the size?

[sawmill]

While I don't disagree with you, and I'd have zero qualms with shooting a moose or elk with a 243, will you read what you just wrote?!?!?! A 223 spitting a 62gr ttsx or 75gr amax isn't enough for a 300lb deer, but a 100gr sp at the same speed is ok for an animal that's three times the size?

If I had one rifle I`d rather it was the .243 over the .223.Is what I was saying.I use my Brno 30.06 on the big stuff,but.....................

[todbartell]

exit hole from a 45gr TSX @ 3280 fps on a mule deer

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/356_42490355515_1437_n.jpg

Expect the same penetration from a 223/TSX to a 30-30 with 150gr soft points.

[hunter1993ap]

hey TB is that a 223 short mag?

[RiverOtter]

While I agree that a 243 has more "Jam", fact is, anything that'd run away from a warp speed .224 TSX isn't gonna drop dead with the identical shot from a .243........

Will also add, I'd never even think of subjecting a young kid to a muzzle brake. As many or more shooters develop a flinch from muzzle blast as recoil. With todays bullets, there is absolutely no need to force too big of gun on a kid.

[RiverOtter]

hey TB is that a 223 short mag?

Been a few years, but I believe that was a 221 Fireball.....

[hunter1993ap]

While I agree that a 243 has more "Jam", fact is, anything that'd run away from a warp speed .224 TSX isn't gonna drop dead with the identical shot from a .243........

Will also add, I'd never even think of subjecting a young kid to a muzzle brake. As many or more shooters develop a flinch from muzzle blast as recoil. With todays bullets, there is absolutely no need to force too big of gun on a kid.
I never knew that the blast from a brake developed a flinch. I just know from the brake I have the sound and concussion isn't that bad. but I have been around ones that just "rock" you. the boss system stands out, as it seemed to send a shockwave to all standing around it.

[835]

Been a few years, but I believe that was a 221 Fireball.....


looks "Fatter" then "Flat tops and Fireballs" but that picture does look like that doe...
Wicked thread that was....

[RiverOtter]

Muzzle blast in general, though often brakes(depending on style) make it worse by directing more noise/concussion towards the shooter.

[RiverOtter]

looks "Fatter" then "Flat tops and Fireballs" but that picture does look like that doe...
Wicked thread that was....

That's not a very nice thing to say about Mr. Bartell.........:mrgreen:

[835]

he can take it!

that is the only .221 Fireball i have seen is the pic in that thread.

[todbartell]

Gatehouse's hands are big, but not THAT big :mrgreen: It's a 221 Fireball, which is smaller than a 223, and runs about 400 fps slower

entrance
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/356_42489770515_6176_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/18672_215629072991_6820642_n.jpg

[guywitha270]

Thanks for the conversation fellas. I like the idea of having a double use gun. But I guess a .243 could also be for double use.

[Kudu]

Load it up with 64 grain Nosler Bonded Performance BSB's - go out and harvest Whitetail or Mulie's - sit back and laugh at the clowns on here who said it could not be done ....:mrgreen:

[steel_ram]

These threads pop up once a month at least. Same conversation, same participants and same pic's. Please sticky it.

[KodiakHntr]

And here I was thinking it's been a long time since one of these 223/deer threads popped up on hbc.....

[lovemywinchester]

These threads pop up once a month at least. Same conversation, same participants and same pic's. Please sticky it.

Thats funny. I thought about copy and pasting my response from the last one.

[Gateholio]

If someone wants to post links to all the other .223 threads I could merge them and sticky them all together :)

[brotherjack]

A 223 will kill anything you shoot right with it, and a TSX will hugely improve your range of what 'shot right' is. But google some youtube videos of a 223 making impact with a row of water jugs, and also some of a 308 win making impact with water jugs. It is obvious that the 223 is in no way shape or form even close to the impact horsepower of even the lowly 308 (many hunters consider it a bit small for elk-sized things).

If you handload, I'd suggest something in 30-cal (for me, I personally adore boring old 308 Winchesters), and pick up some 30-30 bullets and stoke em up with Trail Boss or similar to 30-30 ish levels. If you don't handload, 243 is probably the most kid-friendly of the more serious calibers.

All IMHO, of course.