Cat Hunting Etiquette EK

[GoatGuy]

Is it common for people to purposely run cat tracks over with their sled on another run when someone else has already started a chase?

Buddies started a run last weekend on a Bobcat which cut across another road and someone, who knew they were running it, had headed down and driven over the tracks with their sled and up and down the road. By the time they had things all sorted out the day was a bust.

Is it that competitive out there?

[Ferenc]

Recreational sledders that dont know...some of them are crazy !!!

[xfactor]

An anti riding a sled?

[GoatGuy]

Should have mentioned, the sledder was hunting and knew they were cutting the dogs loose on that cat.

[EGLPNT]

Ibtl!!.......

[LBM]

Lots of crap that goes on down there. Turning out on a cat already started. Driving ahead as already mentioned. Hunting on private land. Calling in others to shoot the cat. illegal guiding. Shooting cats and leaving them or not reporting them. shooting females with kittens. Could go on and on about it but most don't seem to care. A lot of this is done by some pretty well knowing sheep/big game guides as well, makes a guy wonder what goes on in the rest of the big game season.
Would what happened to your buddys not be considered interfering with a hunt.

[Ferenc]

An anti riding a sled?

Yes your right...never met one that was anti....but crazy...forsure !!!!!

[blackbart]

I have heard horror stories about the EK cat hunters. I hope it isn't true, and would like some of the cat hunters to post up. When I see a cat hunter around my parts I stop and get their phone number so that I can call if I spot some fresh tracks. Always good to have friends out in the bush as opposed to enemies....

Any truth to guys driving around at midnight and stomping on tracks to "claim them" for themselves at daylight?

[LBM]

I have heard horror stories about the EK cat hunters. I hope it isn't true, and would like some of the cat hunters to post up. When I see a cat hunter around my parts I stop and get their phone number so that I can call if I spot some fresh tracks. Always good to have friends out in the bush as opposed to enemies....

Any truth to guys driving around at midnight and stomping on tracks to "claim them" for themselves at daylight?

Yes, and many times they never come back

[xfactor]

Should have mentioned, the sledder was hunting and knew they were cutting the dogs loose on that cat.


Then that's plain and simple...if you were there first, he's a prick!

[BlacktailStalker]

EK sounds like a shit show. I wouldn't stand for any of that... I'm not much of a talker in those predicaments :lol:

An outfitter spun donuts on a tom I was on 4 years ago....They had been after it for 3 years and let out on it 4 times and couldn't catch it.
I was pissed, they saw where I let out on it and while I was walking it out in the pissing rain they cut it again 5-6km up the road.
I walked it out (and up) over 3000' and the dogs took it from the top all the way down.
By the time I got off the mtn and figured it all out at the crossing they made the loss at, there was 75 yards of road literally roto-tilled from his F350. Slush sprayed everywhere, 10-20 yards into the trees, mud etc.
Dogs were young and couldn't figure it out so hit the road and kept going. I had to walk 5km back to the truck and go after them.
I caught it a couple days later and let it go. It treed above a deep ravine and if I shot it he wouldn't have been recoverable so I snowballed him hoping he'd jump. No luck.
Guess he remembered getting snowballed because they finally caught it the next year but he tore the shit out of his dogs.... He was only 142lbs and rumour had it he was all torn up.
I went in the next day and caught the one that diced him up LOL and he had a solid 10-12 lbs on him. Funny how things work out sometimes.

There are cats everywhere, there's no reason to be ignorant or even competitive, it ruins the purpose of being out.

[TheProvider]

Always smarter to take the time to mess up someones hunt than to simply move on and hunt another track or somewhere else.

I can only imagine some of the stories out there.

[Elkaholic]

EK sounds like a shit show. I wouldn't stand for any of that... I'm not much of a talker in those predicaments :lol:

An outfitter spun donuts on a tom I was on 4 years ago....They had been after it for 3 years and let out on it 4 times and couldn't catch it.
I was pissed, they saw where I let out on it and while I was walking it out in the pissing rain they cut it again 5-6km up the road.
I walked it out (and up) over 3000' and the dogs took it from the top all the way down.
By the time I got off the mtn and figured it all out at the crossing they made the loss at, there was 75 yards of road literally roto-tilled from his F350. Slush sprayed everywhere, 10-20 yards into the trees, mud etc.
Dogs were young and couldn't figure it out so hit the road and kept going. I had to walk 5km back to the truck and go after them.
I caught it a couple days later and let it go. It treed above a deep ravine and if I shot it he wouldn't have been recoverable so I snowballed him hoping he'd jump. No luck.
Guess he remembered getting snowballed because they finally caught it the next year but he tore the shit out of his dogs.... He was only 142lbs and rumour had it he was all torn up.
I went in the next day and caught the one that diced him up LOL and he had a solid 10-12 lbs on him. Funny how things work out sometimes.

There are cats everywhere, there's no reason to be ignorant or even competitive, it ruins the purpose of being out.


I am of the same nature you are Andy. Around here you would not believe the competition for cats. There are not alot left after the past few years and the a-holes that helped are finding it out as well. We have a few areas we stick to as there are cats to run and less competition and crap from other hunters. But it seems most are in it for their own ego and don't care about the other houndsmen out there. I don't care to ever kill a cat, I just want to run my dogs and it seems as though people just dont want to run together at all.

[eastkoothunter]

EK cat hunting is very competitive these days, but there are good guys out there still. Unfortunately some of those 'horror' stories are true though. Such as sheep hunting in the area, there's a lot of ego involved, like any hunting I guess; everyone want to brag about the biggest and most sought after animal. I know a lot of killing cats has to do with saving the sheep; any cat in a sheep winter range won't survive. On the other side of things, most hound hunters I know do it for the sport and the bonding with dogs. A lot of guys just like to run cats these days, unless they tree that above exceptional tom. GPS collars make cat hunting much easier than what it was years ago, and therefor allowing more people to do it. As with any hunting, it's definitely not like it was years ago.

[GoatGuy]

Was gonna head over there for something to do, but I think I'll just convince the boys to come out here.

It's unfortunate as he's a guy I helped with a sheep LEH a few years ago and I've always had quite a bit of respect for him.

In this case I'm sure the pendulum will swing fast and hard.

[LBM]

I am of the same nature you are Andy. Around here you would not believe the competition for cats. There are not alot left after the past few years and the a-holes that helped are finding it out as well. We have a few areas we stick to as there are cats to run and less competition and crap from other hunters. But it seems most are in it for their own ego and don't care about the other houndsmen out there. I don't care to ever kill a cat, I just want to run my dogs and it seems as though people just dont want to run together at all.

Its only gona get worse with the declining number of cats and people running around to get the last one.

[GoatGuy]

Its only gona get worse with the declining number of cats and people running around to get the last one.

come on over to region 8, not a lot of houndsmen and lots of cats.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Just a SHI*HEAD ! would do that and interfere with the hunt ! :twisted: Guys like that needs a PUNCH in the head or something like that ! :wink: RJ

[budismyhorse]

Its only gona get worse with the declining number of cats and people running around to get the last one.

Declining?? Where? My cat hunting buddies are saying its absolutely nothing to tree 2-3/day....

I've got buddies who pred call them in without dogs.....

There is talk of no quota on females and even 2 cat bag limit in the west......

Are they really declining?

[budismyhorse]

I have heard horror stories about the EK cat hunters. I hope it isn't true, and would like some of the cat hunters to post up. When I see a cat hunter around my parts I stop and get their phone number so that I can call if I spot some fresh tracks. Always good to have friends out in the bush as opposed to enemies....

Any truth to guys driving around at midnight and stomping on tracks to "claim them" for themselves at daylight?
Have you ever seen the parking lots at gas stations and tim hortons between 12-3 am after a snowfall?!?!

Isnt that normal cat hunting behaviour to head out early , freshen up tracks and wait for light??

[Elkaholic]

Declining?? Where? My cat hunting buddies are saying its absolutely nothing to tree 2-3/day....

I've got buddies who pred call them in without dogs.....

There is talk of no quota on females and even 2 cat bag limit in the west......

Are they really declining?

It all depends on if you are talking East or West. East IS in decline and people are not stopping at all. The west has very little pressure and as a result they are wanting to loosen up the regs over there to draw some of the hunters out that way.

[budismyhorse]

talking strictly in the east..........I'm told from the cat boys I know there are more cats now than ever. No big guys but lots of cats in total.........

The statement I've heard is back awhile ago you could go all night and not cut a track........now you have your pick and if they don't see any size they just run any of the "other" tracks they passed on.

Interested if that holds up to the HBC review ;)

[LBM]

Declining?? Where? My cat hunting buddies are saying its absolutely nothing to tree 2-3/day....

I've got buddies who pred call them in without dogs.....

There is talk of no quota on females and even 2 cat bag limit in the west......

Are they really declining?

Yes declining in various regions of the east kootenays.

[LBM]

Have you ever seen the parking lots at gas stations and tim hortons between 12-3 am after a snowfall?!?!

Isnt that normal cat hunting behaviour to head out early , freshen up tracks and wait for light??

Maybe to some that's normal but not to all.
That would also explain all the Tim Horton garbage on the roads this winter.

[LBM]

talking strictly in the east..........I'm told from the cat boys I know there are more cats now than ever. No big guys but lots of cats in total.........

The statement I've heard is back awhile ago you could go all night and not cut a track........now you have your pick and if they don't see any size they just run any of the "other" tracks they passed on.

Interested if that holds up to the HBC review ;)
Well some don't see it that way and more are starting to notice this. Some say there is lots but they are seeing the same cats tracks over and over.
The toms don't get a chance to get big, way to many getting shot.
Have gone days with out finding a track.
Sounds like your buddys are the type mentioned already. What if they cut a bigger track and don't go back to the one they marked.
Not to be rude but sounds like all your info comes from the coffee shop since everything you have said is from what you have heard or been told
none from personal experience.

[budismyhorse]

Darn near Zero personal experience...... Just confirming the banter I hear around town and in different hunting circles

[tracker]

come on over to region 8, not a lot of houndsmen and lots of cats.

I can't speak for the rest of region 8 but the southern part is in rough shape for cougar and lots of hunters out there too..

[budismyhorse]

Soooooo back to etiquette...

So how does the "other half" hunt? They leave their house at 7 and find what they find in daylight? Meaning they do not under any circumstances drive around in the dark with 2 million candle power flashlights and then sit on tracks and release dogs at first light?

im actually very curious

[J_T]

Budismyhorse, you were at the meeting. A collaring campaign carried out last year in the cariboo recovery area, revealed very few cats in the Purcell side of the trench. From St Mary's to highway 3. Those they did collar quickly moved to the east side (of the trench) in January to spend the winter feeding on wintering deer elk and sheep. A large track of land in the Purcells was covered and only three cats found.

And you heard Stew talk about the West Kootenays. A guy I've known 50 years, and he knows cats. He and Rocco M, with their last three weeks hunting, they couldn't find a track. SO LBM, yes, there was a hard discussion on opening up the quota on cats, but i don't think it went anywhere.

It isn't much different than elk or deer. They congregate in good winter habitat. Therefore, the competition (of hunters) to hunt them is increased.

I talked to Lunenberger a couple weeks ago. At that point they had taken 2 cats and 5 wolves. Need more everyone hunting wolves.

To your original question GG. I suppose it is competitive. But for the most part, there is a lot of respect.

[GoatGuy]

I can't speak for the rest of region 8 but the southern part is in rough shape for cougar and lots of hunters out there too..

Have heard that about south R8, but the guys hunting central north have no problems finding lots of cats and big ones too.

[eastkoothunter]

There's no rule or regulation to when you can go look for cat tracks; not allowed to dump dogs before light though. Snow conditions and the distance traveled are taken into consideration when determining a time to leave; I've done it anywhere between 2am and first light. Everybody wants to be first to a hunting area and cats are no different. I agree on declining numbers for some areas of the EK's, especially decent size toms. Caught wind today that the female quotas are close to being met in some EK areas; not sure if its 100% true though, just word of mouth.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Have heard that about south R8, but the guys hunting central north have no problems finding lots of cats and big ones too.

I know of a fair share of cats in region 8, dog guys only want to hunt them where they can drive around and find the dogs,

[budismyhorse]

Budismyhorse, you were at the meeting. A collaring campaign carried out last year in the cariboo recovery area, revealed very few cats in the Purcell side of the trench. From St Mary's to highway 3. Those they did collar quickly moved to the east side (of the trench) in January to spend the winter feeding on wintering deer elk and sheep. A large track of land in the Purcells was covered and only three cats found.

And you heard Stew talk about the West Kootenays. A guy I've known 50 years, and he knows cats. He and Rocco M, with their last three weeks hunting, they couldn't find a track. SO LBM, yes, there was a hard discussion on opening up the quota on cats, but i don't think it went anywhere.

It isn't much different than elk or deer. They congregate in good winter habitat. Therefore, the competition (of hunters) to hunt them is increased.

I talked to Lunenberger a couple weeks ago. At that point they had taken 2 cats and 5 wolves. Need more everyone hunting wolves.

To your original question GG. I suppose it is competitive. But for the most part, there is a lot of respect.

of course I remember the meeting.... Just asking for info that probably wasn't part of it....and might even support or contradict..... Can't learn much without asking questions!


Typical cat hunters saying "some regions" are in decline....haha... It's all fun stuff JT

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Have heard that about south R8, but the guys hunting central north have no problems finding lots of cats and big ones too.

Don't doubt that for a second.
Last year I found waaaaaay more cat tracks on local hikes in the central OK than I did cat hunting for two days on sleds ( 3 guys) in the south OK in perfect snow conditions.

SSS

[J_T]

of course I remember the meeting.... Just asking for info that probably wasn't part of it....and might even support or contradict..... Can't learn much without asking questions!


Typical cat hunters saying "some regions" are in decline....haha... It's all fun stuff JT Yup for sure. And my post wasn't intended to be confrontational, more the opposite, looking for you to confirm what I heard more than anything.

[BlacktailStalker]

I know of a fair share of cats in region 8, dog guys only want to hunt them where they can drive around and find the dogs,

Bingo.
Get off the beaten track if you want to find a nice 6-8/9 year old tom. Just cuz a guy has dogs doesn't mean he knows how to hunt cats !
I think people should learn more about what happens when you pull the trigger if they're concerned about cat numbers or more importantly quality of cats. The fact there is a female quota closing soon, is indication of the mentality of the EK, which would piss me off if I lived there.
Our cats are at an all time high at the moment with current estimates @ 5-600 and wolves surprisingly lower than I thought at 150-250.
Most guys are still shooting "monster" 3.5 year old toms every time they see that near mature frame in a tree, they get all wet in the pants... my thoughts are it's the same in most places and people arent filtering through the wrong ones to find the better ones. People are scared to let a cat go because of where they caught it and they then 'think' its going to get shot 'for sure' if they don't kill it. Not likely and even so, who gives a shit? Shoot that tom in your favorite area and a new tom rolls in and kills every damn kitten for 50 miles and the occasional female if he finds her kittens while she's there. If any of you guys killing cats want to learn a bit pick up a book called Cougar Management Guidelines, written by a compilation of biologists and cat specialists out of Washington and other places. Cats are like goats, you can change a lot in an area by pulling a trigger, especially with multiple rigs rolling around.

[budismyhorse]

Very interesting post...

[eastkoothunter]

People are scared to let a cat go because of where they caught it and they then 'think' its going to get shot 'for sure' if they don't kill it. Not likely and even so, who gives a shit? . agree 100%

[bighornbob]

not allowed to dump dogs before light though.
Can you point out where it says that in the regs??

BHB

[LBM]

of course I remember the meeting.... Just asking for info that probably wasn't part of it....and might even support or contradict..... Can't learn much without asking questions!


Typical cat hunters saying "some regions" are in decline....haha... It's all fun stuff JT

Well if its all a joke to you and of no concern no sense in answering your questions.

[bugler]

Like hunting for anything most guys have respect but there are always a few people who don't get the whole etiquette thing. Makes your blood boil when you get scooped by an ignorant slob but you can't force ethics on people, just have to move on.

Still too many cats around here but it is true that mature toms are hard to come by. I have seen photos of a couple pretty good ones though.

[hunter1993ap]

Don't doubt that for a second.
Last year I found waaaaaay more cat tracks on local hikes in the central OK than I did cat hunting for two days on sleds ( 3 guys) in the south OK in perfect snow conditions.

SSS

the cat tracks I saw late fall in the central ok was nuts this year. one day I found half a dozen fresh sets on top of new snow. made me think about getting back into a hound. although none of the tracks I found that day had any size, I have found some big tracks around.

[LBM]

Bingo.
Get off the beaten track if you want to find a nice 6-8/9 year old tom. Just cuz a guy has dogs doesn't mean he knows how to hunt cats !
I think people should learn more about what happens when you pull the trigger if they're concerned about cat numbers or more importantly quality of cats. The fact there is a female quota closing soon, is indication of the mentality of the EK, which would piss me off if I lived there.
Our cats are at an all time high at the moment with current estimates @ 5-600 and wolves surprisingly lower than I thought at 150-250.
Most guys are still shooting "monster" 3.5 year old toms every time they see that near mature frame in a tree, they get all wet in the pants... my thoughts are it's the same in most places and people arent filtering through the wrong ones to find the better ones. People are scared to let a cat go because of where they caught it and they then 'think' its going to get shot 'for sure' if they don't kill it. Not likely and even so, who gives a shit? Shoot that tom in your favorite area and a new tom rolls in and kills every damn kitten for 50 miles and the occasional female if he finds her kittens while she's there. If any of you guys killing cats want to learn a bit pick up a book called Cougar Management Guidelines, written by a compilation of biologists and cat specialists out of Washington and other places. Cats are like goats, you can change a lot in an area by pulling a trigger, especially with multiple rigs rolling around.
The EK is probably a lot different then the coast and a lot of what you say may be true but happens at different levels in different regions, states or provinces.
The problem in some areas here is the older class Toms are gone so then any Tom gets shot now its any cat for some thing has to get shot now its worse for after driving around for 3 or 4 days and only finding one track they have to shoot it. New cats arnt just rolling in as they say. Many of these guys hunt in groups of 2 to 5 trucks with 2 to 3 in each and they all have a guy that wants to shoot something. Ive met 1 or 2 guys that do it to actually run dogs and take pictures.

[LBM]

Can you point out where it says that in the regs??

BHB
Putting the dogs down would be considered hunting so time limits are the same as for hunting any big game.
Some years ago they were/tried charging people for looking for tracks in the dark, There was some groups
that were working in 8hr shifts continually driving the roads.

[eastkoothunter]

Putting the dogs down would be considered hunting so time limits are the same as for hunting any big game.



Thank you. I was going to say the same, it falls under pursuit/hunting of an animal, such as any other game animal

[dana]

Someone hinted driving roads at night with spotlights to locate tracks??? Hope the hunters don't have a firearm in their possession while doing this.

[bugler]

Someone hinted driving roads at night with spotlights to locate tracks??? Hope the hunters don't have a firearm in their possession while doing this.

Indeed they do. Ever carried your rifle into your hunting location before daylight (or out after dark) with your headlamp turned on? Were you hunting or just trying to get from A to B? Did you inspect any tracks that happened to be on the trail during your travels?

Ever stop and gaze at a nice buck in your headlights, gun on the seat beside you? Or stop and look admiringly in the daylight at the beauty standing on the other side of the posted fence? Maybe raised your bino's to get a better look. You weren't going to shoot it, that would be illegal. But there is nothing wrong with looking.

It's a bit of a grey area but it has been tested here. A few years ago the CO's tried to lay some charges along the lines of what you're alluding to. They were all thown out, it is considered acceptable to look for tracks with a light.

[BlacktailStalker]

The EK is probably a lot different then the coast and a lot of what you say may be true but happens at different levels in different regions, states or provinces.
The problem in some areas here is the older class Toms are gone so then any Tom gets shot now its any cat for some thing has to get shot now its worse for after driving around for 3 or 4 days and only finding one track they have to shoot it. New cats arnt just rolling in as they say. Many of these guys hunt in groups of 2 to 5 trucks with 2 to 3 in each and they all have a guy that wants to shoot something. Ive met 1 or 2 guys that do it to actually run dogs and take pictures.

That's a tough crowd. Hard to make a dogs with that little game around.
Maybe the female quota is a blessing for these areas, otherwards it would be a real slaughter.
Good running to ya!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Someone hinted driving roads at night with spotlights to locate tracks??? Hope the hunters don't have a firearm in their possession while doing this.

YOur kidding right Dana?

[budismyhorse]

Well if its all a joke to you and of no concern no sense in answering your questions.

Sorry LBM I didn't want to give you he sense I think this is a joke.... I just get a kick out of hunters being coy..... That's all.... Not wanting to give up an area they hunt. I do it all the time myself;)

if you don't want to talk about how or where you hunt.... Just want to bash how other guys do it (the theme of the thread)..... Then that's fine..... I'm just curious how guys look for cats if they don't go out in the wee hours to look.

It would seem to me that everything would be run by the time you got to the bush if you weren't looking in the dark.

Considering how the cats are in decline and the big ones are gone.... Good conditions are hard to get sometimes.... You'd want to be out there idling around in the dark as well if you want to have a chance....no?

[Kudu]

Indeed they do. Ever carried your rifle into your hunting location before daylight (or out after dark) with your headlamp turned on? Were you hunting or just trying to get from A to B? Did you inspect any tracks that happened to be on the trail during your travels?

Ever stop and gaze at a nice buck in your headlights, gun on the seat beside you? Or stop and look admiringly in the daylight at the beauty standing on the other side of the posted fence? Maybe raised your bino's to get a better look. You weren't going to shoot it, that would be illegal. But there is nothing wrong with looking.

It's a bit of a grey area but it has been tested here. A few years ago the CO's tried to lay some charges along the lines of what you're alluding to. They were all thown out, it is considered acceptable to look for tracks with a light.

Exactly - no one can stop or fine you for that.

[budismyhorse]

YOur kidding right Dana?

No doubt...... This is what I'm after.... Seriously....are there cat hunters that DO NOT look in the dark?

[LBM]

Sorry LBM I didn't want to give you he sense I think this is a joke.... I just get a kick out of hunters being coy..... That's all.... Not wanting to give up an area they hunt. I do it all the time myself;)

if you don't want to talk about how or where you hunt.... Just want to bash how other guys do it (the theme of the thread)..... Then that's fine..... I'm just curious how guys look for cats if they don't go out in the wee hours to look.

It would seem to me that everything would be run by the time you got to the bush if you weren't looking in the dark.

Considering how the cats are in decline and the big ones are gone.... Good conditions are hard to get sometimes.... You'd want to be out there idling around in the dark as well if you want to have a chance....no?

Whos being coy The topic was on the EK and that's what I said I was talking about
Have you said were all your buddys hunt since you have already said you don't.
Depending on the drive I leave about an hr before light don't have spotlights etc on the truck.
I don't want to be racing around all night trying to beat someone to a track that's not what
it is about to me, and yes it is getting worse every year. If hunting is a big competition to you
and your buddys that's your choice just not what Im in to.
I disagree with JT and bugler that the majority are good and only a few bad apples I would say its the exact opposite
but you have to be out there to see it.

[LBM]

That's a tough crowd. Hard to make a dogs with that little game around.
Maybe the female quota is a blessing for these areas, otherwards it would be a real slaughter.
Good running to ya!
Yes its a tough go and there should be a Realistic female and Tom quota to stop over harvest.

[budismyhorse]

Very cool info .... Thx.

I don't really know exactly where they hunt.... They are pretty coy;)


lots are from the elk valley.... Some cranny boys seem to go "north" a lot...... Wherever that means.... Skook?

[bugler]

I disagree with LBM that most cat hunters are dicks and that there are hardly any cats left. I would say it's the exact opposite but you have to be out there to see it.

I do agree that mature toms are scarce, and that this may not be good for the cat population and that a kitty crash may be on the horizon. Keeping my fingers crossed....maybe we'll get back to what it was like back in the 80's where finding a track was so tough that not many could be bothered to do it, and our sheep herds were in much better shape.

[budismyhorse]

Great post

[Everett]

Not a cat hunter even though I have killed them but I see no shortage in the trench every time I seem to turn around there seems to be a young tom trying to turn me into dinner. Hunter etiquette from Cranbrook based hunters can be very low at times so your initial report does not surprise me. There something in the water in Cranbrook that produces rude hunters.

[bugler]

Gawd Everett, seriously? Even the hunters from Kimberley can't get over this old Cranbrook/Kimberley rivalry. Let it go man! The Dynamiters and Royals are long since retired, time the good people of Kimberley retire this Small Town's (similar to Small Man's) Disease.:mrgreen:

The OP talked about the EK, not Cranbrook. From my experience it is just as likely the jerks were from Kimberley.

[LBM]

I disagree with LBM that most cat hunters are dicks and that there are hardly any cats left. I would say it's the exact opposite but you have to be out there to see it.

I do agree that mature toms are scarce, and that this may not be good for the cat population and that a kitty crash may be on the horizon. Keeping my fingers crossed....maybe we'll get back to what it was like back in the 80's where finding a track was so tough that not many could be bothered to do it, and our sheep herds were in much better shape.

I never said most cat hunters are dicks those are your words, but do consider you one of the bad apples after your talk last year about killing of females and cougars in family units.

[LBM]

Gawd Everett, seriously? Even the hunters from Kimberley can't get over this old Cranbrook/Kimberley rivalry. Let it go man! The Dynamiters and Royals are long since retired, time the good people of Kimberley retire this Small Town's (similar to Small Man's) Disease.:mrgreen:

The OP talked about the EK, not Cranbrook. From my experience it is just as likely the jerks were from Kimberley.
Cranbrook and Kimberly are probably the largest centers in the EK so more then likely most of the bad apples come from there but there is some in every town up and down the valley and they come from other regions as well. Have run in to a few from alberta and Saskatchewan as well. Its not just in the cat hunting world its in general season as well. Hunting is really changing.

[Everett]

Gawd Everett, seriously? Even the hunters from Kimberley can't get over this old Cranbrook/Kimberley rivalry. Let it go man! The Dynamiters and Royals are long since retired, time the good people of Kimberley retire this Small Town's (similar to Small Man's) Disease.:mrgreen:

The OP talked about the EK, not Cranbrook. From my experience it is just as likely the jerks were from Kimberley.

Just for your info I a not from Kimberley I am from Halifax I have lived all over the world and in many places in in the EK I hunt in at least four hunting regions every year and have hunted in all 9 regions in BC. I am in the bush pretty much more than any one on this site outside of Wayne and will state without blinking that Cranbrook hunters are the biggest assholes in BC. If you are driving down a road in the trench in BC and the guy coming the other way stops for a chat he is either from Kimberley or from LML or the OK if he blasts past you on a quad walking into a mountain bowl on a hiking trail he is from Cranbrook.
Sorry mate I know not every Cranbrook hunter is an asshole but the percentage of assholes to nice hunters is huge.

[GoatGuy]

Hahaha, in this case the fellow isn't from Crazybrook........ but it is a very, very special place when it comes to hunting, hunters and wildlife management.

Seems to be a huge gap when it comes to the transfer of information and knowledge.

[GoatGuy]

One thing that I find interesting, although it isn't necessarily applicable for this situation, is if these houndsmen are running into each other and nobody plans on shooting something why wouldn't you run you dogs together? If it's about the dogs, does it really matter?

Typically, if we see something that we don't want to shoot and run into another hunter we usually tell them where it is or help them harvest the animal. Never seen an animal with someone's initials tatooed into the hide.

[dana]

No doubt...... This is what I'm after.... Seriously....are there cat hunters that DO NOT look in the dark?

I said this in jest but it does raise a question. If I were to drive around with a spot light all night long in the fall looking for deer and I had a rifle in the truck what assumption are most going to jump too??? It seems it is alright for cat hunters so it must be alright for deer hunters too????

And to answer your last question, nope, I don't feel the need to look in the dark when I am out looking for cat tracks. It is obvious I know nothing about how to do it right as pointed out on another thread. ;)

[eastkoothunter]

One thing that I find interesting, although it isn't necessarily applicable for this situation, is if these houndsmen are running into each other and nobody plans on shooting something why wouldn't you run you dogs together? If it's about the dogs, does it really matter?

Typically, if we see something that we don't want to shoot and run into another hunter we usually tell them where it is or help them harvest the animal. Never seen an animal with someone's initials tatooed into the hide.

A lot of guys tend to run their dogs together, but many times the aggression of different dogs running with each other leads to some brutal fights at the tree. I have one that is far to aggressive to run with others. You'd never guess it until you see him at the tree. All this mumbo jumbo comes down to the person you're dealing with and the size of the cougar. Because the big ol' toms are hard to find, that's when you see the asshole side of people.

And yes, some Cranbrook folk can be hard to deal with, but you'd be surprised how many people you run into from the Okanagan/LML in the EK's who think it's there territory because they've hunted it for a year or two. Each area has its good and bad people; some local and some not.

[BlacktailStalker]

One thing that I find interesting, although it isn't necessarily applicable for this situation, is if these houndsmen are running into each other and nobody plans on shooting something why wouldn't you run you dogs together? If it's about the dogs, does it really matter?

Typically, if we see something that we don't want to shoot and run into another hunter we usually tell them where it is or help them harvest the animal. Never seen an animal with someone's initials tatooed into the hide.

Bingo .

[BlacktailStalker]

A lot of guys tend to run their dogs together, but many times the aggression of different dogs running with each other leads to some brutal fights at the tree. I have one that is far to aggressive to run with others. You'd never guess it until you see him at the tree. All this mumbo jumbo comes down to the person you're dealing with and the size of the cougar. Because the big ol' toms are hard to find, that's when you see the asshole side of people.

And yes, some Cranbrook folk can be hard to deal with, but you'd be surprised how many people you run into from the Okanagan/LML in the EK's who think it's there territory because they've hunted it for a year or two. Each area has its good and bad people; some local and some not.

This isn't a bad thing, identify those culls, leave them at the tree and eliminate any future shitty breedings.

[GoatGuy]

All this mumbo jumbo comes down to the person you're dealing with and the size of the cougar. Because the big ol' toms are hard to find, that's when you see the asshole side of people.

Yes, that's unfortunate. Tells me it's about the kill, not the dogs then.

Always meet people who try to mask the scent of BS. Part of life I suppose.



And yes, some Cranbrook folk can be hard to deal with, but you'd be surprised how many people you run into from the Okanagan/LML in the EK's who think it's there territory because they've hunted it for a year or two. Each area has its good and bad people; some local and some not.

Always a few bad apples anywhere you go.

Crazybrook seems to carry more than its fair share. Been some pretty entertaining moments over the years.

[GoatGuy]

This isn't a bad thing, identify those culls, leave them at the tree and eliminate any future shitty breedings.

My buddy calls it score .22.

[LBM]

One thing that I find interesting, although it isn't necessarily applicable for this situation, is if these houndsmen are running into each other and nobody plans on shooting something why wouldn't you run you dogs together? If it's about the dogs, does it really matter?

Typically, if we see something that we don't want to shoot and run into another hunter we usually tell them where it is or help them harvest the animal. Never seen an animal with someone's initials tatooed into the hide.

For some of the reasons already mentioned by EKH. Dogs that don't know each other can cause more problems because of there own personal traits or competiveness during the run not to mention the already mentioned problems at the tree. A lot of work can go into training a dog and it can be hampered or ruined by running with another.
IMO turning large groups of dogs out isn't really helping the dogs farther down the line any there just following the other dogs. Would rather have 1 to 3 dogs at a tree then 5 to 10.
What I would usally do if ran into someone that I would run with is let them run there dogs on the track and if it happened again run mine the next.
Although many say its just about the dogs they also say unless its really big or they have someone else that wants one. I don't pack a gun when running only a panasonic.

[LBM]

This isn't a bad thing, identify those culls, leave them at the tree and eliminate any future shitty breedings.

Its opinions or attitudes like this why I don't run with many others.

[MadCat]

Sounds like you guys not from the EK have it pretty easy cat hunting. If your not up in the wee-hours of the morning after a fresh snow fall you wont be chasing a cat that day unless you catch the one that is crossing in the day light. And as for what those guys did GG that's BS. Don't think I would put up with that, that guy needs a serious talking too.

[MadCat]

And to answer your last question, nope, I don't feel the need to look in the dark when I am out looking for cat tracks. It is obvious I know nothing about how to do it right as pointed out on another thread. ;)

And if you lived down here I would be surprised if you caught more than a couple cats a season.

[dana]

I would imagine I could go for a walk and still find plenty of cat tracks that don't cross roads. ;)

[GoatGuy]

Budismyhorse, you were at the meeting. A collaring campaign carried out last year in the cariboo recovery area, revealed very few cats in the Purcell side of the trench. From St Mary's to highway 3. Those they did collar quickly moved to the east side (of the trench) in January to spend the winter feeding on wintering deer elk and sheep. A large track of land in the Purcells was covered and only three cats found.

And you heard Stew talk about the West Kootenays. A guy I've known 50 years, and he knows cats. He and Rocco M, with their last three weeks hunting, they couldn't find a track. SO LBM, yes, there was a hard discussion on opening up the quota on cats, but i don't think it went anywhere.

It isn't much different than elk or deer. They congregate in good winter habitat. Therefore, the competition (of hunters) to hunt them is increased.

I talked to Lunenberger a couple weeks ago. At that point they had taken 2 cats and 5 wolves. Need more everyone hunting wolves.

To your original question GG. I suppose it is competitive. But for the most part, there is a lot of respect.

Don't know who presented the cougar data, but most of that is incorrect. Should probably push for a written status report so we're all on the same page, including the collar data and kill investigations.

Lots of guys in the WK running cats right now and having a great time doing it. A pile of it that isn't accessed and it seems for many mule deer is the primary concern.

To be honest the information sources are well known for copious amounts of BS. Not trying to stir the pot, have a big smile on my face, but seriously the stories I could tell hahaha.

[J_T]

Most of what is incorrect? That Lunenberger hasn't killed 2 cats and 5 wolves at the time I was talking to him between Christmas and New Years? Or that those tasked with a contract to collar and monitor cats (Dave Lewis?) are not good at their job? Or they're bull shitting at meetings to support some hidden agenda? Sure, I know Stew Hawes was building a house and I found it funny that the only cat he was able to find was actually spending the winter in the basement of the house he was building. In my post I'm reiterating information from a wildlife management meeting. Bud was there. He can state whether I didn't hear the information correctly. You can't. You weren't there. I thought committee's mean, everyone has a role and everyone reports back. Being a part of those meetings means believing in each other, respect, credibility and integrity. We're not talking about hearsay and hunters who come to a meeting with no credibility. Sometimes you confuse me. While I've been at this (conservation, giving back, habitat enhancement, and wildlife committees) since you were probably a toddler, I find you are the reason I want out of contributing to wildlife management, rather than becoming more involved.

[GoatGuy]

Most of what is incorrect? That Lunenberger hasn't killed 2 cats and 5 wolves at the time I was talking to him between Christmas and New Years? Or that those tasked with a contract to collar and monitor cats (Dave Lewis?) are not good at their job? Or they're bull shitting at meetings to support some hidden agenda? Sure, I know Stew Hawes was building a house and I found it funny that the only cat he was able to find was actually spending the winter in the basement of the house he was building. In my post I'm reiterating information from a wildlife management meeting. Bud was there. He can state whether I didn't hear the information correctly. You can't. You weren't there. I thought committee's mean, everyone has a role and everyone reports back. Being a part of those meetings means believing in each other, respect, credibility and integrity. We're not talking about hearsay and hunters who come to a meeting with no credibility. Sometimes you confuse me. While I've been at this (conservation, giving back, habitat enhancement, and wildlife committees) since you were probably a toddler, I find you are the reason I want out of contributing to wildlife management, rather than becoming more involved.

The stuff about the cats. Would just ask for a written status report. Maybe miscommunication; all the cats didn't move to the east side of the trench in January. Enough said.

Not saying you didn't hear correctly would just consider the sources, that's all. There are several houndsmen in the WK who have been out treeing and killing cats no problem. There is much more to that story. The who what where and when needs to be answered to tell the full story. As said, I'm smiling. We're all friends here! :-D

[rocksteady]

Cat hunting with dogs in the EK can be cutthroat... And I am not talking trout.


I reference my post from a couple years ago, while running with my buddy and his pooches, when the GO tried to lay claim to our marked track, then it turns out he was 10 miles outside of his territory....

Pride and money make idiots of the best people.

[eastkoothunter]

This isn't a bad thing, identify those culls, leave them at the tree and eliminate any future shitty breedings.

I'd rather not 'cull' one of my best dogs, just because it doesn't get along with other guys hounds. He runs fine with my other two, so there's really no problem in that sense. I can think of a lot of different ways that a dog is part of a shitty breed. I'm not going out of my way to run with other people, although I'm not opposed to it. I'd like to think I run a smooth operation with my three hounds, my dad and some close friends. Less BS to deal with (dogs and people) and not being involved in killing cats not worth it; just memories, exercise and some pictures.

[rocksteady]

I'd rather not 'cull' one of my best dogs, just because it doesn't get along with other guys hounds. He runs fine with my other two, so there's really no problem in that sense. I can think of a lot of different ways that a dog is part of a shitty breed. I'm not going out of my way to run with other people, although I'm not opposed to it. I'd like to think I run a smooth operation with my three hounds, my dad and some close friends. Less BS to deal with (dogs and people) and not being involved in killing cats not worth it; just memories, exercise and some pictures.

I think he was being sarcastic. No one would kill a dog cause it would not run with others.... Maybe get pissed or feel like beatin it, but never kill it...

Things turned out okay when we ran no-tail with you and jasons dogs......except I was 3rd in line to be shooter on that cat.....

[bugler]

Just for your info I a not from Kimberley I am from Halifax I have lived all over the world and in many places in in the EK I hunt in at least four hunting regions every year and have hunted in all 9 regions in BC. I am in the bush pretty much more than any one on this site outside of Wayne and will state without blinking that Cranbrook hunters are the biggest assholes in BC. If you are driving down a road in the trench in BC and the guy coming the other way stops for a chat he is either from Kimberley or from LML or the OK if he blasts past you on a quad walking into a mountain bowl on a hiking trail he is from Cranbrook.
Sorry mate I know not every Cranbrook hunter is an asshole but the percentage of assholes to nice hunters is huge.

Ha ha Everett, I know from living between the two communities all my life that it generally does not take a new Kimberley resident long to become indoctrinated to the anti Cranbrook mentality. It is part of Kimberley's culture to Cranbrook bash at any opportunity. Honestly, how do you know he is from Cranbrook if he doesn't stop to talk to you?

Well, the worst hunting etiquette story I heard this year was of 4 heroes from Kimberley beating up a senior citizen because he was hunting in "their" spot. Now that's rude. I know not every hunter from Kimberley is a jerk but for such a small town 4 is a lot.

[rocksteady]

.....but maybe it was a real good hunting spot... (wink, wink)

[LBM]

Cat hunting with dogs in the EK can be cutthroat... And I am not talking trout.


I reference my post from a couple years ago, while running with my buddy and his pooches, when the GO tried to lay claim to our marked track, then it turns out he was 10 miles outside of his territory....

Pride and money make idiots of the best people.
So did this outfitter turn dogs out and harvest this cat out of his territory and if so what happened when you reported him.

[hunter1947]

There are lots of cat hunters here in the cranbrook area yes you are right GG its very competitive out there cat hunting its getting as bad as when a person hunts for prey out there its like if I was after a big bull elk and I confronted a hunter on my pursuit for this elk said I am after a big bull elk right now he is headed up hill above us and the other hunter says I am going after this elk as well..

I was shed hunting a few years ago near the cranbrook area I saw fresh cat tracks headed north up hill there was a truck parked where I was he had let his hounds out onto the tracks I drove about 3k up hill to try a new place for sheds along came a truck with his hounds..

I confronted this cat hunter that let his dogs out onto fresh cat tracks parked by my truck I said to this cat hunter there already is a hounds man with his dogs on these cat tracks the cats tracks where headed north up hill where I was parked this cat hunter that had just arrived where I was parked I said can you hear the hounds below us he said yes there onto a different cat then this one ..

I said to the hounds men its probably the same cat tracks he turned and said its a different set of cat tracks we are onto I said I dough it the cat came from below here where I was he did not care said got to get going after this cat I might had been wrong who knows ??? my thoughts after my conversation with this cat hunter there are some cat hunters out there that just don't give a cats about other fellow cat hunters......

[Everett]

Ha ha Everett, I know from living between the two communities all my life that it generally does not take a new Kimberley resident long to become indoctrinated to the anti Cranbrook mentality. It is part of Kimberley's culture to Cranbrook bash at any opportunity. Honestly, how do you know he is from Cranbrook if he doesn't stop to talk to you?

Well, the worst hunting etiquette story I heard this year was of 4 heroes from Kimberley beating up a senior citizen because he was hunting in "their" spot. Now that's rude. I know not every hunter from Kimberley is a jerk but for such a small town 4 is a lot.

Don't get me wrong Bugler there is also asshole hunters in Kimberley as well they seem to pretty much be everywhere in the Kootenays. But Cranbrook is a special case there something in the water that makes hunters into jerks. I like I said in my last post I hunt all over BC and this area is the worst and Cranbrook is the epicenter except maybe Fernie which is probably the most unfriendly town in BC.

[rocksteady]

So did this outfitter turn dogs out and harvest this cat out of his territory and if so what happened when you reported him.

Did not know he was outside his territory until the took the cat in for CI, where you have to draw the x on the map. Then the CO's got involved and not sure about the final outcome.

[aggiehunter]

I've only run into good guys in Cranbrook...but I only go in the BOS...now the CO's...different story!!!!!!!!!

[Everett]

I've only run into good guys in Cranbrook...but I only go in the BOS...now the CO's...different story!!!!!!!!!

That's interesting I keep hearing about Jerk CO's in the EK but I have always found them to be super nice guys.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Don't get me wrong Bugler there is also asshole hunters in Kimberley as well they seem to pretty much be everywhere in the Kootenays. But Cranbrook is a special case there something in the water that makes hunters into jerks. I like I said in my last post I hunt all over BC and this area is the worst and Cranbrook is the epicenter except maybe Fernie which is probably the most unfriendly town in BC.

I've lived, worked and hunted in each town of Fernie, Sparwood, Kimberley and Cranbrook throughout my entire life. I've yet to have a bad run in with another hunter. Maybe it's just my luck. Driving past someone because they want to get out hunting is not a mean thing to do. The last thing I want to do when I head out to the bush is to get into gossip session, although I will gladly oblige if a guy rolls down his window and wants to talk. Disparaging a single community because you have run into some bad apples is unfortunate.

Back to the thread, there are very few cat hunters in Cranbrook. I haven't run into a single hound kennel inside the City as the lots are too small and the bylaw complaints drive them out. On the other hand, the people from Gold Creek, Jim Smith, New Lake, Moyie, Wasa, Fort Steele, Bull River and especially Wycliffe are giving us a bad name! Oh, and don't get me started on Jaffray... just follow the Budweiser cans to the fresh cat tracks.

[Husky7mm]

That's interesting I keep hearing about Jerk CO's in the EK but I have always found them to be super nice guys.
I second that!

[J_T]

That's interesting I keep hearing about Jerk CO's in the EK but I have always found them to be super nice guys. I doubt this thread was started to bash CO's but I will say, that my own personal experience left me bewildered with the approach of CO's. (sorry if I wasn't clear, I was trying to be both nice and respectful)

[BlacktailStalker]

I'd rather not 'cull' one of my best dogs, just because it doesn't get along with other guys hounds. He runs fine with my other two, so there's really no problem in that sense. I can think of a lot of different ways that a dog is part of a shitty breed. I'm not going out of my way to run with other people, although I'm not opposed to it. I'd like to think I run a smooth operation with my three hounds, my dad and some close friends. Less BS to deal with (dogs and people) and not being involved in killing cats not worth it; just memories, exercise and some pictures.

Amen. Good program then. I'm not interested in running with people for the most part either although I do enjoy the old timers and there are a few (more) I would like to spend a few days with.
I helped a few guys get started, trained their dogs behind mine every damn weekend for over two years, lost all my dogs and you'd think they'd be around to return the favour when I got pups ? Not a chance. Typical of people really and houndsmen tend to be loners anyways.... so less BS is right.
We're all pussies compared to the old school hounders as far as I'm concerned, it's hard not to lose the shit eating grin listening to them talk, great stories, some abstract ideas and lots of knowledge and things seen by those old codgers.

[rocksteady]

I heard, but can't confirm, that there are 400 members of the East Kootenay houndsman association, doubt there are 400 cats round here, so do the math......too many chasers, versus the number of cats....

Therefore...... CONFLICTS!!

[eastkoothunter]

Amen. Good program then. I'm not interested in running with people for the most part either although I do enjoy the old timers and there are a few (more) I would like to spend a few days with.
I helped a few guys get started, trained their dogs behind mine every damn weekend for over two years, lost all my dogs and you'd think they'd be around to return the favour when I got pups ? Not a chance. Typical of people really and houndsmen tend to be loners anyways.... so less BS is right.
We're all pussies compared to the old school hounders as far as I'm concerned, it's hard not to lose the shit eating grin listening to them talk, great stories, some abstract ideas and lots of knowledge and things seen by those old codgers.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's amazing watching the old homemade videos from the late 80's/90's. I'd like to see how many guys would/could still run hounds without the aid of the GPS tracking system.

[bugler]

I've lived, worked and hunted in each town of Fernie, Sparwood, Kimberley and Cranbrook throughout my entire life. I've yet to have a bad run in with another hunter. Maybe it's just my luck. Driving past someone because they want to get out hunting is not a mean thing to do. The last thing I want to do when I head out to the bush is to get into gossip session, although I will gladly oblige if a guy rolls down his window and wants to talk. Disparaging a single community because you have run into some bad apples is unfortunate.

Back to the thread, there are very few cat hunters in Cranbrook. I haven't run into a single hound kennel inside the City as the lots are too small and the bylaw complaints drive them out. On the other hand, the people from Gold Creek, Jim Smith, New Lake, Moyie, Wasa, Fort Steele, Bull River and especially Wycliffe are giving us a bad name! Oh, and don't get me started on Jaffray... just follow the Budweiser cans to the fresh cat tracks.

Love it!!! Yes, those Wycliffe jerks seem to embody all the negative traits found in both Cranbrook and Kimberley so they are real losers! I also agree that they're not as bad as all those scum from Jaffray. Typical random suns a bitches them Jaffray folks!

Where does it end? Maybe it's best if we don't make broad general negative statements about certain groups of people, as much as it makes us feel better about ourselves:mrgreen:

[aggiehunter]

..oh...and I've run into good CO's too..derail...back to cat hunting.

[GoatGuy]

Budismyhorse, you were at the meeting. A collaring campaign carried out last year in the cariboo recovery area, revealed very few cats in the Purcell side of the trench. From St Mary's to highway 3. Those they did collar quickly moved to the east side (of the trench) in January to spend the winter feeding on wintering deer elk and sheep. A large track of land in the Purcells was covered and only three cats found.

And you heard Stew talk about the West Kootenays. A guy I've known 50 years, and he knows cats. He and Rocco M, with their last three weeks hunting, they couldn't find a track. SO LBM, yes, there was a hard discussion on opening up the quota on cats, but i don't think it went anywhere.

It isn't much different than elk or deer. They congregate in good winter habitat. Therefore, the competition (of hunters) to hunt them is increased.

I talked to Lunenberger a couple weeks ago. At that point they had taken 2 cats and 5 wolves. Need more everyone hunting wolves.

To your original question GG. I suppose it is competitive. But for the most part, there is a lot of respect.

So this is something that's really been eating at me for quite a while. There are two things that really bother me - bad information and people saying something and doing the exact opposite. I have no time for this program.

If I understand you correctly, Stew has been saying he couldn't find a track and he didn't want to change to a 2 cat limit due to a shortage of cats (there's nothing new with that tune). And that is fine, if the concern is legitimate and the person stating that acts in a manner consistent with their stated opinion. So, there's no cats - then don't shoot any.

Stew has been guiding for the past 3 years which is also totally fine. What isn't fine is the fact he's been guiding for cats outside of the tenured area, in resident only areas, under a 70b permit (completely legal).

Have no problem with managing cougars in the caribou recovery zone intensively, and increasing the bag limit, which was requested by the WKO or issuing a 70b if resident are not able to achieve the management objective and have been consulted. Mule deer are hurting and so are caribou - naturally it's a quick transition to liberalize.

The fact that the subject matter expert on your call said there aren't enough cats while he has been guiding in resident only areas really burns my you know what. To paraphrase, we can't increase the bag limit because there aren't any cats, but I can guide in resident only areas for cats. The fact that he killed a cat down in the PD after ripping every houndsman in the WK for hunting cats down there burns me even more.

So the story is there's no cats and we can't find any so we shouldn't have a two cat bag limit. The reality is hunting outside of the guide territory and shooting cats in the same areas where "there aren't enough cats". As I said - no issue with 70(b) permits and managing cougars intensively. I do have a HUGE issue with spreading BS especially on a conference call where a person is supposed to be providing information as a 'subject matter expert'. This is kind of like saying you don't support the 6 pts elk season because it's unsustainable and then going out and hunting in the exact same season. That is BS.

So when I say consider the source, that is why. Don't believe everything you hear.


I have zero time for this kind of crap and I can guarantee you the fireworks are going off in the WK.

[Mulie-Stalker]

Hey Guys....Im more of a watcher and really enjoy these threads, but this one got my blood boiling. Goat Guy you are really on the ball and have hit the nail on the head with this one. The guys in the West Koots must be fired up....would this be a bit of a conflict of interest? Hippocratical move ? Who is this guy Stew ?.....and why would the hounds-man listen to this guy? One last question ,I didn't even realize that outfitters are allowed to hunt outside of there boundaries, going into areas that are resident only WTF is that about. Shouldn't us residents be notified before the government would do this. Anyhow my 2bits

[DUTCHY]

This is a great thread and it I find some merit in what various people have to say regardless of what side of the fence they are sitting on. I also find it interesting to listen to people's thoughts on harvest quotas, male vs. female harvest, large age class toms (or the lack there of in "some areas") and the implications of harvesting toms that are not necessarily "mature" or in their "prime". Bottom line is based on hunting regulations and existing seasons it is 100% legal to shoot toms and females and who are we to judge people for what sex and age class animal they chose to harvest??? Let's not forget, cougar management in British Columbia is not managed for trophy quality and management guidelines are based on the best information available. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't, but don't hate the player.........hate the game.

Problem I have is when experts and decision makers have a different agenda and GG nailed this one on the head. Stew may have made more enemies than friends based on some of his personal decisions and comments lately. Illegal......no, truthful and unethical.......being questioned by some for sure. For a guy to make professional opinions on cat numbers which may or may not influence quotas in the WK, many would be interested to know just how many cats he has helped guide here in the WK and how many were females and big toms vs. young toms............but we are to accept that as ok because someone bases their livelihood on it??? Cummon......really? Pretty hypocritical position to put yourself in. Stew isn't really that bad of a guy, but I will tell you what, people in the WK are gonna have a hard time believing anything that comes out of his mouth from now on and I KNOW there has been friendships lost because of this. It's unfortunate really. We are dumping on houndsmen because of their ethics and beliefs but not all houndsmen are the same and contrary to what they say, most houndsmen have different beliefs and agendas than the next houndsman, and if they tell you they don't then chances are you are being lied too. Kuddos to those of you that do it for all the right reasons.

Truth be told, I have far more respect for a guy/gal who spends weeks in a row and kills a small tom or female by sitting on a kill or tracking one without dogs than a guy who kills an 8 year old Boone and Crockett tom. That's just my opinion and that animal would make it a bigger trophy in my eyes than a big age class tom. We as hunters are our own worst enemies and if we just went about our merry little hunts and quit making such a competition out of everything and worrying about what the next guy is doing then we wouldnt have threads like this.

[DUTCHY]

One more thing......GG mentioned that guiding of cougars is being and has occurred in the WK over the past couple years in resident-only areas (outside of traditional guide outfitter territory boundaries) under a 70b permit. While this is completely legal, many people in the WK have a problem with this. Originally we were told that these permits were issued in MU's with caribou recovery efforts and now that has been extended to adjacent MU's and more than just one outfitter because allowable cougar harvest quotas in the WK were historically never met and the WK could sustained additional cougar harvest, and it was beneficial to mule deer and ungulates, blah, blah, blah, blah. Regardless of the reasons whether they be political or to support biology and wildlife management, if that is the case then we as resi's should be entitled to this additional harvest through increase quotas. On one hand we have so called experts saying the WK cannot support an additional cougar harvest or an increased hunter quota of 2/hunter/year but we have essentially allowed outfitters to take advantage of a cougar quota that has traditionally not been met on an annual basis in the WK. I am not crapping on outfitters nor am I saying let's kill all the cougars but let's make sound and structured decisions where it makes sense............and the current situation, DOES NOT make a whole bunch of sense.

[tracker]

Truth be told, I have far more respect for a guy/gal who spends weeks in a row and kills a small tom or female by sitting on a kill or tracking one without dogs than a guy who kills an 8 year old Boone and Crockett tom.


Comparing apples and oranges again !! Obviously you don't know a true Houndsman .

[J_T]

Seems the discussion has denigrated into comparing watermelons and raisins. Dutchy, if you live in the WK, and I can only assume you do, then talk to your wildlife representatives about how you feel. I can assure you on the committee there are others that feel as you do.

As to "who this guy Stew is", well I apologize to him for using his name. I did so to establish credibility in a statement to Budismyhorse earlier in the thread. Who this guys is, is a person I have known for many years and in fact, he has been well used by Government over the years in various wildlife management objectives. I can assure you when he was asked for an opinion by Government at a wildlife meeting, they didn't just flip through a phone book and pick someone.

When compared with the unknown faces and arm chair biologists of HBC, he comes with more credibility for me personally. For those reading this thread, I would be cautious about taking the discussion in directions of assumption. That's how witches started getting burned at the stake in the middle ages.

GG, as always you make some valid points. Let's keep perspective. Region 4 has a good working wildlife management committee. It was under the context of Trappers, Houndsman, Hunters and Government that topics of wildlife management and hunting opportunity comes up. Collecting information to support strategies and decisions, is not about what a guy hunts or where a guy hunts. It's about collecting information, determining objectives and going forward.

[LBM]

So this is something that's really been eating at me for quite a while. There are two things that really bother me - bad information and people saying something and doing the exact opposite. I have no time for this program.

If I understand you correctly, Stew has been saying he couldn't find a track and he didn't want to change to a 2 cat limit due to a shortage of cats (there's nothing new with that tune). And that is fine, if the concern is legitimate and the person stating that acts in a manner consistent with their stated opinion. So, there's no cats - then don't shoot any.

Stew has been guiding for the past 3 years which is also totally fine. What isn't fine is the fact he's been guiding for cats outside of the tenured area, in resident only areas, under a 70b permit (completely legal).

Have no problem with managing cougars in the caribou recovery zone intensively, and increasing the bag limit, which was requested by the WKO or issuing a 70b if resident are not able to achieve the management objective and have been consulted. Mule deer are hurting and so are caribou - naturally it's a quick transition to liberalize.

The fact that the subject matter expert on your call said there aren't enough cats while he has been guiding in resident only areas really burns my you know what. To paraphrase, we can't increase the bag limit because there aren't any cats, but I can guide in resident only areas for cats. The fact that he killed a cat down in the PD after ripping every houndsman in the WK for hunting cats down there burns me even more.

So the story is there's no cats and we can't find any so we shouldn't have a two cat bag limit. The reality is hunting outside of the guide territory and shooting cats in the same areas where "there aren't enough cats". As I said - no issue with 70(b) permits and managing cougars intensively. I do have a HUGE issue with spreading BS especially on a conference call where a person is supposed to be providing information as a 'subject matter expert'. This is kind of like saying you don't support the 6 pts elk season because it's unsustainable and then going out and hunting in the exact same season. That is BS.

So when I say consider the source, that is why. Don't believe everything you hear.


I have zero time for this kind of crap and I can guarantee you the fireworks are going off in the WK.
Some interesting stuff I definitely don't agree with any guide/outfitter being able to hunt outside of there zones.
Would be interesting if its the same stew that use to complain about an outfitter taking to many cats in the WK
maybe he has know joined forces with him. Money can change peoples views and beliefs.
Your 6 point thoughts is also like those that complain and say we don't need LEH but then they still apply.

[GoatGuy]

Some interesting stuff I definitely don't agree with any guide/outfitter being able to hunt outside of there zones.
Would be interesting if its the same stew that use to complain about an outfitter taking to many cats in the WK
maybe he has know joined forces with him. Money can change peoples views and beliefs.
Your 6 point thoughts is also like those that complain and say we don't need LEH but then they still apply.
Yes, same individual and yes he is working for him.

Don't think it's the same - my concern with this is sustainability. People who are willing to state a season is not sustainable and continue to hunt it is an issue. I think it speaks volumes about their character.

[GoatGuy]

Seems the discussion has denigrated into comparing watermelons and raisins. Dutchy, if you live in the WK, and I can only assume you do, then talk to your wildlife representatives about how you feel. I can assure you on the committee there are others that feel as you do.

As to "who this guy Stew is", well I apologize to him for using his name. I did so to establish credibility in a statement to Budismyhorse earlier in the thread. Who this guys is, is a person I have known for many years and in fact, he has been well used by Government over the years in various wildlife management objectives. I can assure you when he was asked for an opinion by Government at a wildlife meeting, they didn't just flip through a phone book and pick someone.

When compared with the unknown faces and arm chair biologists of HBC, he comes with more credibility for me personally. For those reading this thread, I would be cautious about taking the discussion in directions of assumption. That's how witches started getting burned at the stake in the middle ages.

GG, as always you make some valid points. Let's keep perspective. Region 4 has a good working wildlife management committee. It was under the context of Trappers, Houndsman, Hunters and Government that topics of wildlife management and hunting opportunity comes up. Collecting information to support strategies and decisions, is not about what a guy hunts or where a guy hunts. It's about collecting information, determining objectives and going forward.

The folks in the WK have pretty serious heartburn over this for a multitude of reasons, valid reasons at that.

There's always a lot of BSers in the hunting community. My concern is when people make decisions in regards to wildlife management based on BSers or information which lacks a credible source. Self-induced on his part - you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and expect people to believe you.

[jordan klasner]

lbm, goat guy who are you? whats your names? whats your relation with stew. just want to get my facts straight here. seems pretty chicken to bad mouth a guy on a public form and not sighn a name to it.

[GoatGuy]

lbm, goat guy who are you? whats your names? whats your relation with stew. just want to get my facts straight here. seems pretty chicken to bad mouth a guy on a public form and not sighn a name to it.

Feel free to pick up the phone and call him.

[LBM]

lbm, goat guy who are you? whats your names? whats your relation with stew. just want to get my facts straight here. seems pretty chicken to bad mouth a guy on a public form and not sighn a name to it.
Not bad mouthing anyone, just surprised that's all, a bit different from the way his views use to be if its the guy I think there talking about.. Since its upset you I can guess which outfitter being mentioned now as well since you work for him also. Kinda funny just recommended him to a American maybe that wasn't such a good idea.
I have no relation to stew.
Just went back and re-read some posts and seen that it is the person was thinking of, quit surprising.

[jordan klasner]

I did he doesn't know anyone by the name of goat guy

[GoatGuy]

I did he doesn't know anyone by the name of goat guy

Hahahaha, glad to hear he's answering his phone now.

[J_T]

The folks in the WK have pretty serious heartburn over this for a multitude of reasons, valid reasons at that.

There's always a lot of BSers in the hunting community. My concern is when people make decisions in regards to wildlife management based on BSers or information which lacks a credible source. Self-induced on his part - you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and expect people to believe you. You serious about your comment that if a hunter doesn't think a hunting season is sustainable he has the obligation not to hunt it? Hunters are opportunists man. I don't think a doe season in the EK is or was sustainable, but, to be a part of a collaborative team and to show others that it wasn't all about me (your quote) I supported the decision. And I hunted whitetail (with a bow) and I harvested a doe. What about all the guys who didn't want to support the WK elk GOS? Most of them still hunted it. Hunters are opportunists, create an opportunity to get outdoors and they take it. Your suggesting most hunters are hypocrites. Everyone has thoughts about what is sustainable and what isn't. Well, maybe we should all just accept at some level, we're all hypocrites.

[Gateholio]

You serious about your comment that if a hunter doesn't think a hunting season is sustainable he has the obligation not to hunt it? Hunters are opportunists man. I don't think a doe season in the EK is or was sustainable, but, to be a part of a collaborative team and to show others that it wasn't all about me (your quote) I supported the decision. And I hunted whitetail (with a bow) and I harvested a doe. What about all the guys who didn't want to support the WK elk GOS? Most of them still hunted it. Hunters are opportunists, create an opportunity to get outdoors and they take it. Your suggesting most hunters are hypocrites. Everyone has thoughts about what is sustainable and what isn't. Well, maybe we should all just accept at some level, we're all hypocrites.

I don't know much about this cougar issue but I read this and thought of many hunters that don't support a season for whatever, so they refuse to participate and even buy antler less LEH applications in hopes of "saving " an animal.

I think they are probably nuts, but at least they stick to thier principles- however misguided they may be. :)

[GoatGuy]

You serious about your comment that if a hunter doesn't think a hunting season is sustainable he has the obligation not to hunt it? Hunters are opportunists man. I don't think a doe season in the EK is or was sustainable, but, to be a part of a collaborative team and to show others that it wasn't all about me (your quote) I supported the decision. And I hunted whitetail (with a bow) and I harvested a doe. What about all the guys who didn't want to support the WK elk GOS? Most of them still hunted it. Hunters are opportunists, create an opportunity to get outdoors and they take it. Your suggesting most hunters are hypocrites. Everyone has thoughts about what is sustainable and what isn't. Well, maybe we should all just accept at some level, we're all hypocrites.

I'm suggesting it's hard on credibility, particularly when someone's directly involved in management decisions.

For example, if someone believed an area was being over-hunted, and wouldn't hunt it I would respect them. If they believed a season would compromise a population, and didn't hunt it I would respect them. If someone believed shooting an animal wasn't consistent with their personal conservation ethic, I would respect them.

Oppositely if someone chewed other people out for hunting an area and thought it should be shut down, then went out, hunted it themselves and shot something I don't think that's being 'opportunistic' or "because I can" is a good excuse. That doesn't fly.

Marginalizing personal beliefs are individual choices. These are things people deal with every day. Heck, we see it in the news all the time - anti-prostitution politicians end up with prostitutes and so it goes. Personally I could really careless about what people do on a personal level so long as it doesn't negatively affect others or the resource.

When information compromises decision making in regards to the resource, marginalization effects us all. Been to that dance multiple times and it never ends well. Guess all this 'case study' really points to is the need for data and science.

[J_T]

Yawn, midnight in Bogota. I gotta get to sleep before someone puts a stake in the ground, lights a fire and looks for a witch to burn.