Mule Deer and Antler point restrictions

[GoatGuy]

Can we have this stickied please?

http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/MDWG%20Fact%206.pdf

Antler restrictions are harvest restrictions that limit buck
harvest to animals that meet specific antler criteria. The
most common type of antler restriction is a point restriction.
Antler point restrictions have been used as a harvest strategy
with the hope they will increase the number of large-antlered
bucks in a mule deer population. Experience of many states
and provinces with antler point restrictions suggest this
harvest strategy has very limited potential to produce more
trophy bucks and could result in other unintended challenges.

BACKGROUND
Increasing the number of big-antlered bucks is typically the
basis for hunter demands to implement antler point restrictions.
The idea seems straightforward and promising; if we just don’t
allow hunters to harvest young bucks, they will grow older and
bigger and be available for harvest later. Most western states
and provinces have, at one point in time, employed some type
of antler point restriction attempting to increase the number of
“trophy” bucks in their herds.


THE GOOD
• Decreases hunter pressure and total buck harvest by discouraging some hunters who do not want to be
restricted to a particular antler-sized buck. This can be beneficial when harvest is heavy in relation to the
number of available bucks, but not heavy enough to warrant changing to limited quota seasons.
• In some cases, antler point restrictions have increased the proportion of bucks in the population, but this
effect may not be long-lasting.
• In remote areas with limited access, antler point restrictions have been used in combination with general
seasons to maintain hunter opportunity

[GoatGuy]

THE BAD

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the
average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age
classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the

smaller-antlered young bucks.
• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low
buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively
few, or no, additional fawns.

THE UGLY

• Antler point restrictions dramatically reduce hunter participation, harvest success, and total harvest.

• Antler point restrictions increase the number of deer shot and illegally left in the field; this can be significant,

and has been documented in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Nevada, and Montana.
• Antler point restrictions can cheapen the value of young bucks by changing the threshold for success from
“a buck” to a quest where only a big buck will do.
• Antler point restrictions may discourage hunters (especially beginning and young hunters) by increasing the

difficulty of locating and identifying legal deer.


CONCLUSIONS


After decades of use and many evaluations reporting disappointing results, most western states and provinces

have discontinued statewide antler point restrictions. The two main reasons for abandoning widespread antler

point restrictions are (1) unacceptable accidental-illegal kill, and (2) harvest mortality was increased (focused) on

the very age classes they intended to promote. Available data and experience suggest antler point restrictions result

in no long-term increase in either the proportion or number of mature bucks, or the total deer population. A few

jurisdictions still have limited areas with antler point restrictions, due to hunter preference. The use of antler point

restrictions in a combined strategy with general seasons is used in at least one case to maximize hunting opportunity.

There are additional reasons why the widespread use of antler point restrictions has not been successful. Research

has shown buck fawns born to does in poor body condition have difficulty outgrowing the effects of poor body

condition at birth, and may never reach their genetic potential for antler growth. Regulations protecting these

bucks from harvest are counterproductive to the intended benefit.


Most western states and provinces have concluded that sustainable improvements in buck:doe ratios and the number

of mature bucks can only be realized by reducing harvest through 1) a limited-quota license system that decreases

overall total buck harvest while allowing some level of doe harvest, or 2) setting a very short hunting season in early

fall when more mature bucks are less vulnerable.


It has been suggested while antler point restrictions may increase the proportion of bucks in certain populations with

low buck:doe ratios, there is no evidence they substantially increase the total number of adult (mature) bucks.

[bridger]

The results of many years of antler restrictive seasons in the peace confirm these conclusions. A classic case study

[Husky7mm]

I believe it, but I also believe that the harvest in the kootenays at this time needs to be limited in some way, shape or form.

[fuzzybiscuit]

Small font sizes give me a headache. Must be getting old.

[HarryToolips]

Ya I think it's through my thick skull now lol

[GoatGuy]

I believe it, but I also believe that the harvest in the kootenays at this time needs to be limited in some way, shape or form.

Do you want more deer or do you want to limit the hunting season and harvest?

These are two very separate issues. One is about wildlife, the other is about you.

[emerson]

Long any buck bow seasons. Lots of hunting, very little mortality.

[coach]

Ya I think it's through my thick skull now lol

Cheers, Harry! What a difference a year makes. :-D

[Gateholio]

Long any buck bow seasons. Lots of hunting, very little mortality.

Read the post above yours

[RiverOtter]

About time this was "Stickied".....

Thanks for the brief, concise explanation GoatGuy, hopefully a few more people will get it now.

[spear]

Do you want more deer or do you want to limit the hunting season and harvest?

These are two very separate issues. One is about wildlife, the other is about you.

Can someone explain why lower mortality rates and INCREASED days of hunting is not better for hunters and wildlife?

[Husky7mm]

Do you want more deer or do you want to limit the hunting season and harvest?

These are two very separate issues. One is about wildlife, the other is about you.

Way to high a demand for what little amount of Mule Deer there is.

[knockturnal]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could someone please explain how the 6 point bull elk antler restriction is any different than the 4 point Muley restriction when it comes to the article that Goatguy posted. Wouldnt the same be happening with the elk as well?

[GoatGuy]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, could someone please explain how the 6 point bull elk antler restriction is any different than the 4 point Muley restriction when it comes to the article that Goatguy posted. Wouldnt the same be happening with the elk as well?


The 6 pts elk season is a fail safe season. It was introduced as part of the recovery strategy in the EKs after a bad winter. It was never intended to be a long-term season. There are several MUs that could easily sustain a 3 pts or any bull GOS for that matter. There are of course a few that would likely remain 6 pts due to extremely high access.

The reason there isn't one is due to political and social reasons- it has nothing to do with managing healthy elk populations.

[GoatGuy]

Way to high a demand for what little amount of Mule Deer there is.

Science when it's convenient, beliefs when it isn't.

Definitrly a history of that and you can see the effects. Failing wildlife populations.

[GoatGuy]

Can someone explain why lower mortality rates and INCREASED days of hunting is not better for hunters and wildlife?

I think the ball's in your court on this one. The facts start the thread- if you feel like disproving or contesting them feel free. Remember to support them ...... with science and data. On the wildlife side demonstrate how your concept will either increase mule deer recruitment or reduce mortality. On the hunter side demonstrate how you will increase hunter participation, harvest or satisfaction.

[Squire]

I have always wondered how it could be beneficial to genetics to kill only the largest breeder bucks in September in the high country well ahead of the rut.

The tri-palm requirement for moose has the potential to remove the tri-palms from the breeding stalk.

A couple of examples of the Law of Unintended Consequences manifesting itself.

[wos]

If I'm not wrong the 4 point seasons were implemented to give hunters hunting opportunities not killing opportunity. Personally I like and enjoy 3 months of deer hunting 2 of witch are largely unimpeded by hunting pressure. Its way more enjoyable than a anythingthatmooves season that lasts for 1 week.

[knockturnal]

The 6 pts elk season is a fail safe season. It was introduced as part of the recovery strategy in the EKs after a bad winter. It was never intended to be a long-term season. There are several MUs that could easily sustain a 3 pts or any bull GOS for that matter. There are of course a few that would likely remain 6 pts due to extremely high access.

The reason there isn't one is due to political and social reasons- it has nothing to do with managing healthy elk populations.

So, if im understanding your properly, the mule deer population is starting to wane and people think that implementing a 4 point only season is the way to fix it, when in reality, it will only hurt the population even more. The reason that this is not such a big deal with the elk is that their population is healthy and in check.

[coach]

If I'm not wrong the 4 point seasons were implemented to give hunters hunting opportunities not killing opportunity. Personally I like and enjoy 3 months of deer hunting 2 of witch are largely unimpeded by hunting pressure. Its way more enjoyable than a anythingthatmooves season that lasts for 1 week.

4 point seasons weren't implemented to extend seasons - therefor they weren't created to increase opportunity. We used to have twice as many hunters and a 3 month "any buck" season and deer populations were healthier than what we have today.

Your second point makes it clear you favor managing hunters rather than wildlife. Unfortunately what's best for some hunters isn't what's in the best interest of our mule deer population.

[wos]

4 point seasons weren't implemented to extend seasons - therefor they weren't created to increase opportunity. We used to have twice as many hunters and a 3 month "any buck" season and deer populations were healthier than what we have today.

Your second point makes it clear you favor managing hunters rather than wildlife. Unfortunately what's best for some hunters isn't what's in the best interest of our mule deer population.
I never said 4 point seasons were implemented to extend seasons I am very aware of the gradual shift towards them so we can keep our long season. Trust me I would love nothing more than 3 months of any buck hunting and a 2 week doe season but I just don't see it being sustainable. And yes I think unfortunately the powers that be have found its easier to manage hunters than wildlife. I'm not trying to stir the pot I just love hunting and always have and always will. If arbitrary laws like antler restrictions or hunting methods are what it takes to keep a season open I'm willing to play the game. I think the deer numbers are still above avrage in the areas that I hunt I can only speak from my own obsorvations form the last 25 years

[coach]

I never said 4 point seasons were implemented to extend seasons I am very aware of the gradual shift towards them so we can keep our long season. Trust me I would love nothing more than 3 months of any buck hunting and a 2 week doe season but I just don't see it being sustainable. And yes I think unfortunately the powers that be have found its easier to manage hunters than wildlife. I'm not trying to stir the pot I just love hunting and always have and always will. If arbitrary laws like antler restrictions or hunting methods are what it takes to keep a season open I'm willing to play the game. I think the deer numbers are still above avrage in the areas that I hunt I can only speak from my own obsorvations form the last 25 years

The regulation process starts at your local club level. "Management" concepts such as APR's begin with a few like thinking people convincing their club to push for these types of regulations. Each club in the region then has their own voice at the regional meetings. From there, the region puts forward proposals to the ministry. Through consultation with the regional bio and other stakeholders, decisions are made as to what regulations should be put in place. As the top mule deer minds in North America agree that APR's are not the way to go, he fact that we have them at all goes right back to the beginning - the local club level. Want to make a difference? Join your local club, join the BCWF, educate yourself on the science of mule deer management. Write your MLA, express your desire to see money from fishing and hunting license sales put directly back into the resource and that you want to see positive steps taken toward habitat enhancement and predator control. Volunteer your time to assist with habitat projects.. There's so much more that can be done than sitting around waiting for "the powers that be" to make things better.

[the bear]

instead of reg. changes implement more rd. closures and enforce them. For example the closing of the entire Skull Mtn. rd. system would increase mature buck recruitment

[emerson]

I'm confused. Antler point restrictions seem counterproductive. Is the point that restrictive seasons don't help much either? It doesn't matter what we do about hunting seasons because that doesn't help enough? Without active resource investment in growing deer (and maybe moose) populations they won't survive? If that's true it will be a tough go competing with health care,education, road maint etc. I know I don't have any extra money at my house. I would rather have a long season where I was restricted in my harvest method (bow etc) than a 3-5 day blast fest like region 6 moose.

[squeege]

In the Peace region there is an obvious problem with Mule deer population levels due to back to back high snow pack and fairly generous hunting opportunities (antlerless and 3 point). Back in early 2000 there was the one buck in three year 4 point rule and there were lots of deer and big bucks everywhere. .

Since the complaints from the agricultural community back in 2005 (I believe) to reduce the number of deer due to poop in the grain and crop losses, a change in deer management was implemented by increasing antlerless and any buck opportunities. Since this time the Mule deer population has been decimated which, I guess, was the general idea behind the change in regulations in 2005ish.

I think it is time to implement something similar to what we had back in early 2000. I understand that using antler restrictions can change the structure of the "herd" but limiting the number of bucks killed, as with the one in three year rule, will also increase the population. A responsible hunter hunting under a regulation with limited opportunities such as the restriction mentioned above, has to take the time to determine if the animal is legal. In a lot of the cases that amount of time to determine legality of the animal is what will save the animal as it escapes.

As for animal misidentification or poor hunter ethics, this will always be a dark part of hunting but overall the idea is to strengthen herd numbers by reducing the numbers of animals taken due to a selective regulation over a general open season or less restrictive regulation.

And what about other restrictions on other species in BC. Mature or Full Curl rams, 5 point bull caribou, tri-palm or 10 bull point moose, 6 point bull elk, 4 point whitetails. These restrictions are placed on these species so that a limited number are harvested and the key is "limited number". With the theory that reduction in mature breeding population is being impacted I don't disagree, however not all of the Full Curl rams or 10 point bull moose are being shot and some of the younger males in the population will still breed even though they are 2" shy of a full curl or a 9point bull. Some of these animals that are not considered legal by restrictions still have healthy genetics.


I think antler restrictions are better than having animals on a short season or LEH. In fact I would rather shut down a season for a 3-5 year period to let the animals repopulate than to have a short any buck or antlerless season. I think the antler restriction can be used as a short term management tool effectively to bring back populations to healthy levels while still allowing for hunter opportunities.
.

[mooseslayer]

4 point seasons weren't implemented to extend seasons - therefor they weren't created to increase opportunity. We used to have twice as many hunters and a 3 month "any buck" season and deer populations were healthier than what we have today.

Your second point makes it clear you favor managing hunters rather than wildlife. Unfortunately what's best for some hunters isn't what's in the best interest of our mule deer population.

More of a question I have and I don't want to hijack the tread away from antler restrictions- When there was less access & 3 times as may hunters; do you think less accessibility played a large part as to why these populations were healthier? If so; before making any changes should we deal with the accessibility of prominent mule deer areas as a first step to producing healthier populations of all types of bucks for all types of hunters (except ppl. with disabilities, age, etc.)?
Thanks.

[Sitkaspruce]

Squeegee

You are again managing hunters. We are not the problem, we need to stop thinking that the few deer we kill every year is having a major affect on the population.....it is not. Up here winters, vehicles, major pred numbers, habitat, whitetails, trains and possibly even the elk all play a bigger roll in the MD population than some hunters. Yes the agricultural community has a big say in how our population is managed: they were the driver behind the gos for does and the any buck season.

Sadly, this year we have major snow fall and some roller coaster temps, which will benefit the press. The one good thing is the deer went into this winter in great shape due to the wet summer. Let's hope for little snow, a quick, warm spring and we all get out and reduce some of those preds to help the deer.

I do not want to see the 1-3 buck season nor do I want to see hunter opportunity reduced. We need to deal with the bigger problems first.

Cheers

SS

[Wild one]

I have said it before would rather see the prov bag limit change to 1 mule deer and do away with point restrictions. Help spread the hunting pressure throughout the season. Trophy hunters will hold out for their goal and meat hunters can take a spike if they choose. It will cause some to pass on younger bucks because if they fill their tag they can't just jump to another region in hopes of a trophy. Should see a mixed age class harvest and will not promote poor genetics.

In my opinion it would be worth at least a test run but it would take multiple seasons to see results. Yes it is another form of restricting hunters but there is always going to be some form of restriction

Just like anything else some will like it some won't and some are open to change others are not.

Just another hunter without a degree's opinion and don't doubt there are holes in my theory

[squeege]

Squeegee

You are again managing hunters. We are not the problem, we need to stop thinking that the few deer we kill every year is having a major affect on the population.....it is not. Up here winters, vehicles, major pred numbers, habitat, whitetails, trains and possibly even the elk all play a bigger roll in the MD population than some hunters. Yes the agricultural community has a big say in how our population is managed: they were the driver behind the gos for does and the any buck season.

Sadly, this year we have major snow fall and some roller coaster temps, which will benefit the press. The one good thing is the deer went into this winter in great shape due to the wet summer. Let's hope for little snow, a quick, warm spring and we all get out and reduce some of those preds to help the deer.

I do not want to see the 1-3 buck season nor do I want to see hunter opportunity reduced. We need to deal with the bigger problems first.

Cheers

SS


I agree with everything you said other than we are not the problem. We are part of the problem there is no doubt. I think winters and predators (Humans and the four legged kind) are the biggest contributing factor to deer population decline but there comes a time when we have to step back and implement some form of restrictions/management which may include reducing the harvest opportunities and I'm all for it. M

Mule deer are at a level in the Peace where they should be getting rig of the antlerless LEH and Im glad to see it back to four point restriction to allow for a recovery for a few years. I would rather see a healthy population in a 5 year time span with limited hunting opportunities than continue to have sub-mediocre mule deer hunting and low population numbers. As long as the restrictions are revised once the populations return then Im all for it.

Antler restrictions, especially on Mule deer, can be an successful management tool if used effectively over a period of time while still allowing for hunting opportunities.

[coach]

Funding, habitat, predator management.. Continue to ignore these issues and the only thing left to do will be to further manage hunters..

[coach]

Antler restrictions, especially on Mule deer, can be an successful management tool if used effectively over a period of time while still allowing for hunting opportunities.

Can you give us some examples of where this strategy has been successful?

[Darksith]

you can't simply blame the hunters for the decline of the deer either though. The wolf explosion is probably a huge part of why some deer populations are shrinking. I would rather see restrictions on weapon types rather than a shortened season. In BC especially we have a lot of opportunities, but in order for us hunters to take advantage of those opportunities, you need a long season, or you need to stagger those seasons. If there was a muzzle loader only season like there is a bow season, that would seriously limit the number of people that are taking advantage of that time. Also what about a reverse hunting season? Something like the spike fork season for moose, one could have a <4point season which would take the focus off of the breeding population. As stated though, you can have a 10:100 buck doe ratio and still get 90% of does bred, so whats the problem other than possibly that the hunting season is too long and too many animals are being harvested

[horshur]

Goat posted a link to a whole bunch of papers you all should read some of them... really........

[Wild one]

Funding, habitat, predator management.. Continue to ignore these issues and the only thing left to do will be to further manage hunters..

These are all things that should be looked at I agree but with habitat and predators being an issue it would be wise to control hunter harvest till these issues are addressed in my opinion.

For funding lobbying for a set % of the revenue created from tag, license, and draw sales to go straight to wildlife management issues. Even if it causes a slight increase in the cost of these items it would be worth it.

Habitat issues will bring you back to funding. If you have the funding than you need to lobby for the right to be able to alter the habitat in each area. To keep cost down on each project recruit volunteers. Unfortunately with the govt in places I don't see them taking on these projects. This is where hunters and outdoorsmen need to step up and lobby for the rights to take on some habitat projects

With predator issues the govt is going to tip toe around this problem as long as they can and odds are you will see no results from them. Because of this it leaves very few options. Support getting trappers out on the traplines and promoting predator hunting is all we have at this time.


In the end the only way I can see getting some results on these issues is if outdoorsmen work on lobbying for the funding and rights to take on some of the projects. This also involves outdoorsmen willing to get out and work on projects. Bringing these issues up with govt officials wanting them to deal with it will most likely only cause them to push it under the rug well they deal with what they see as priority. I learned long ago if you want to see results with govt officials you need to show them how to deal with the issue with as little effort as possible from their end.


All this will take a lot of work but you need to start with the funding issue before you push for the rest

[RiverOtter]

These are all things that should be looked at I agree but with habitat and predators being an issue it would be wise to control hunter harvest till these issues are addressed in my opinion.

So in other words, screw habitat enhancement and give the wolves more Mule deer to help them through the winter......

As has been pointed out, about a jazillion times, hunter harvest has increasingly been controlled since the 60's, yet the MD continue to decline. Might just be time to listen to the bio's for a change, while we still have some deer to work with.......

[Sitkaspruce]

I agree with everything you said other than we are not the problem. We are part of the problem there is no doubt. I think winters and predators (Humans and the four legged kind) are the biggest contributing factor to deer population decline but there comes a time when we have to step back and implement some form of restrictions/management which may include reducing the harvest opportunities and I'm all for it. M

Mule deer are at a level in the Peace where they should be getting rig of the antlerless LEH and Im glad to see it back to four point restriction to allow for a recovery for a few years. I would rather see a healthy population in a 5 year time span with limited hunting opportunities than continue to have sub-mediocre mule deer hunting and low population numbers. As long as the restrictions are revised once the populations return then Im all for it.

Antler restrictions, especially on Mule deer, can be an successful management tool if used effectively over a period of time while still allowing for hunting opportunities.

WE do not take enough deer to affect populations. It is pretty simple, hunters are NOT the problem. There is simple too much country where we CANNOT hunt, especially up here, but pretty well everywhere, and those populations are still having problems. Habitat, preds and a govenment that does'nt want to practice good scientific wildlife management are a way bigger concern than hunters.

As GG has posted, antler restrictions will not save our MD, they are social restrictions that allow hunters to think they will have deer later and so they will not get involved in what really matters. "Out of sight, out of mind" thought process when we put AR on deer, hunters and clubs think that the problem will be solved and do nothing else to help.

Squeege, how do you think us just shooting 4 points and putting pressure on just 4 points will help MD??

Cheers

SS

[Wild one]

So in other words, screw habitat enhancement and give the wolves more Mule deer to help them through the winter......

As has been pointed out, about a jazillion times, hunter harvest has increasingly been controlled since the 60's, yet the MD continue to decline. Might just be time to listen to the bio's for a change, while we still have some deer to work with.......


All for improving the main issues if you read the whole post. The problem is you will not see over night results with the main issues so in the mean time it would be good to take some pressure off declining mule deer numbers. Hunters are not helping the issue if they think they can keep taking the same amount of deer out of a declining population. Hunters may not have a large impact but we still do effect the population if it is 1 deer or 1000s.

The reality of it is Outdoorsmen need to get on the same page and target one of the major issues at a time. As I stated start with finding a way to generate revenue to get these projects done. No different then if you want to start a personal project if you don't have the resources to get it done it will never get started.

We see the issues now we need to find away to reach the solution. Going in and saying I want this and that done rarely gets results especially when you have too many demands. As I tell my kids if you have an issue you need work on how to solve it not demand others to do it for you.

[RiverOtter]

Then riddle me this....

If hunters are allotted next to no doe tags and the existing does are getting bred, the population should be stable or increasing. No?

Further, if the existing does are already getting bred, how is harvesting LESS bucks than we currently harvest going to make the does anymore pregnant.......?

[dana]

This is a constant merry go round on this site. Read the links people!!!

[dana]

And just so the Wannabes get it through their thick skulls.

Region 3 has 3 months of seasons (GOS and 4-point or better combined). It has heavy hunting pressure due to it's proximity to the Coast and to the Okanagan. Hell we even get quite a bit of spill over from both Region 5 and Region 4 as well. We've had incredible wolf predation in the last decade in many areas. It is pretty easy to see our deer numbers are drastically down where the wolf pressure has been heavy. And yet despite all this, we grow GIANTs like this. Region 3 has it right people. Time to get your collective asses out of the sand and start demanding the other regions follow suit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/DSC_0401_zpsd1f24889.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BCBOY/media/DSC_0401_zpsd1f24889.jpg.html)

[Wild one]

Then riddle me this....

If hunters are allotted next to no doe tags and the existing does are getting bred, the population should be stable or increasing. No?

Further, if the existing does are already getting bred, how is harvesting LESS bucks than we currently harvest going to make the does anymore pregnant.......?


Just stating my opinion take it how ever you choose. Could go back and forth with a million different options on how to change things and why and the same amount of reasons to keep things as they are.

[Timbow]

Thanks for posting the article. Very interesting and informative.

Majority of the hunters I know will not hunt during the four point season unless they have a LEH antlerless or there is a open season for the antlerless. Each have there own reason with the main being the odds of seeing and four point and the taste of a rutting buck.

[Buckmeister]

I have not read all the posts here, so I don't know if this has been mentioned. But, as in other threads on this topic, I haven't really seen it mentioned either. I find most hunters are rather nearsighted when it comes to mortality rate, often wondering if there is too much hunting pressure. Other factors often mentioned with mortality are increased predation and hard winters and sickness.

But one often overlooked and very significant mortality factor exists and is not often mentioned...that of death by vehicle accidents, or "road kill" if you will. I read a report somewhere in the last year that they figure at least half of the mortality rate in a deer population can be attributed to motor vehicle altercations. Like predation, this is a year round threat. Granted, where less human population and roads exist, the less this problem is. But where there is larger concentrations of humans and vehicles and deer, we are seeing plenty of road kill.

So no matter how much an area is "managed", we simply can't ignore the impact that vehicles have on population size. Now maybe mule deer are less susceptible than other ungulates, I don't know, but the fact remains that road kill is a major factor in mortality.

[emerson]

So, habitat needs, as in funding to do it or to keep land off limits to development that hurts animal numbers, right? Costs money one way or another, which is in short supply from govt, considering what other voters want. Predator control, costs money if govt does it, seems ineffective if hunters do it (not enough kills). Even if hunters take no animals the populations may not have a chance, right? So unless wolf/coyote hides become incredible lucrative or huge private money is spent we wait for the natural cycles?? Funding is a great idea, but when medical procedures are regularly on a 1-2 year wait list because of funding shortfalls, the funding for animal enhancement won't happen.

[Wild one]

So, habitat needs, as in funding to do it or to keep land off limits to development that hurts animal numbers, right? Costs money one way or another, which is in short supply from govt, considering what other voters want. Predator control, costs money if govt does it, seems ineffective if hunters do it (not enough kills). Even if hunters take no animals the populations may not have a chance, right? So unless wolf/coyote hides become incredible lucrative or huge private money is spent we wait for the natural cycles?? Funding is a great idea, but when medical procedures are regularly on a 1-2 year wait list because of funding shortfalls, the funding for animal enhancement won't happen.


Correct funding is the major issue that most over look because without it nothing gets accomplished !!!

Sad to say but the best option for funding would be from the pockets of every hunter. As I stated lobby for a set % of license, tag, and draw sales even if it causes a small increase on these items it will be worth it in the long run. Have that money going into nothing but issues related to BC's wildlife.

[Gamebuster]

Antler point restrictions obviously have their place...like Dana says one only has to look at region 3 as an example...harvest across age classes to maximize opportunity. They've been doing it the same way for 20 or so years. Where else have we been able to maintain a consistent mule deer season for that length of time? What does that tell you? Populations have fluctuated within that timeframe and they've held the reigns steady. Even in the face of heavy wolf predation for example, which is also revealing...tells me that to some extent mule deer populations do their thing independent of seasons and we should implement the same season across the southern interior then leave the regs alone and put our energy into addressing the real problems to create more deer across the board. Added benefit of spreading hunting pressure out with consistent seasons.

[dana]

Still interested in how many ever picked up the Fall issue of BC Outdoors and read it. seems people just want to listen to the banter at the local Timmys instead of actually reading 'real' things themselves. Did any see the harvest stat numbers? What Region had the highest harvest??? Hmmm, i wonder eh?

[labguy]

The 6 pts elk season is a fail safe season. It was introduced as part of the recovery strategy in the EKs after a bad winter. It was never intended to be a long-term season. There are several MUs that could easily sustain a 3 pts or any bull GOS for that matter. There are of course a few that would likely remain 6 pts due to extremely high access.

The reason there isn't one is due to political and social reasons- it has nothing to do with managing healthy elk populations.

If I remember correctly, wasn't the six point season first introduced in this province, after the herds were decimated because of an extended GOS on cows/calfs that went well into November .....not a bad winter??? This is going back before many of you were actively hunting.....or even born for that matter.

I remember the slaughter that took place in the EK's over, I believe, a two year period. The cow/calf GOS was implemented because of pressure from the BC Cattlemens Association (a very powerful lobby in this province) who we're whining about elk in their hay stacks during the winter.

Also, while I don't necessarily dispute the findings of the article on page one of this thread, I don't see where the conclusions drawn are backed up by reputable science or facts unless I've missed something......which is entirely possible.:confused:

[BRrooster]

Just how much of our "Habitat Conservation Fund" is going to where it is supposed to go? What are the facts? Where are the funds of our hunting
liscence fees, tag fees, LEH fees going?

[squeege]

Can you give us some examples of where this strategy has been successful?

As mentioned in my previous post....the Peace region in 2000. The deer population was high due to strict antler restrictions and 1 in 3 year rule that the agricultural community started complaining about poop in the grain and crop losses.... Then generous hunting seasons were implemented, including antlerless and any buck, and populations started to decline as planned. Then we had some hard winters which exacerbated the situation but then the generous seasons continued which should have ended and a few more hard winter continued and now we are at where we are at.

[squeege]

Squeege, how do you think us just shooting 4 points and putting pressure on just 4 points will help MD??

Cheers

SS

As mentioned in my previous post...not all 4 points are going to be harvested and this is actually strengthened by your argument that we do not take enough deer to affect populations even though I don't agree with it.

The reasons that the less huntable populations are still having problems is because of predation and long deep snow depth winters.

[DawsonCreedmoor]

As mentioned in my previous post....the Peace region in 2000. The deer population was high due to strict antler restrictions and 1 in 3 year rule that the agricultural community started complaining about poop in the grain and crop losses.... Then generous hunting seasons were implemented, including antlerless and any buck, and populations started to decline as planned. Then we had some hard winters which exacerbated the situation but then the generous seasons continued which should have ended and a few more hard winter continued and now we are at where we are at.

Here are my thoughts on the Peace situation,

The deer population was not high because of antler and quantity restrictions. It was high because of many years of good winters and agriculture land allowing deer to survive winters they normally would not have.

The biggest factor in the drastic decline in mule deer in the peace was the 2006 winter, it had nothing to do with reg changes in 2005.

Since the population has not rebounded to pre 2006 levels, people like to blame the 3pt and doe seasons.

Several years of good winters and early springs is what is needed to bring back the muley numbers, not antler restriction.

I work just across the border in alberta where mule deer are on LEH, and the population is no better, just ask the guys who hunted this year after 5-6 year wait for a tag. How can that be explained? They have a very restrictive season and population is still way down.

Last years long spring was killer on the muleys, I watched them die as it dragged on, I'd drive home from work and see half a dozen deer laying in a field, return the next day to see the same deer laying in the exact same spot, they had not moved, there were dead deer laying in fields all over. And by the looks of this winter so far it's only going to be worse next season.

[HarryToolips]

Still interested in how many ever picked up the Fall issue of BC Outdoors and read it. seems people just want to listen to the banter at the local Timmys instead of actually reading 'real' things themselves. Did any see the harvest stat numbers? What Region had the highest harvest??? Hmmm, i wonder eh?
I buy it every year:) off the top of my head about 10% of MD hunters actually get one, and ya Reg3 has the highest harvest rates for all of BC...

[Darksith]

I am just a little confused as to what all the controversy is. Is it regarding some region and their GOS or something? Im a region 3 hunter, and I don't see an issue with our seasons, I would hate to see them reduced.

[DawsonCreedmoor]

I think the controversy is people believing more restrictive regulations, ie point restrictions will result in more plentiful and larger deer. As seen on this forum a lot of people have this opinion even though the science contradicts it.

[Husky7mm]

Science when it's convenient, beliefs when it isn't.

Definitrly a history of that and you can see the effects. Failing wildlife populations.

The person that wrote the article has "beliefs" also.....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just how much of our "Habitat Conservation Fund" is going to where it is supposed to go? What are the facts? Where are the funds of our hunting
liscence fees, tag fees, LEH fees going?

Don't know what the total numbers are but if you turn to page 38 of your latest issue of the Outdoor Edge, you will see Al Martin's article "Strategic Update". He mentions a shortfall of $6 million that should be directed back into Fish and Wildlife management.

SSS

[squeege]

[QUOTE=DawsonCreedmoor;1442336]Here are my thoughts on the Peace situation,

The deer population was not high because of antler and quantity restrictions. It was high because of many years of good winters and agriculture land allowing deer to survive winters they normally would not have.

The biggest factor in the drastic decline in mule deer in the peace was the 2006 winter, it had nothing to do with reg changes in 2005.

Since the population has not rebounded to pre 2006 levels, people like to blame the 3pt and doe seasons.

Several years of good winters and early springs is what is needed to bring back the muley numbers, not antler restriction.

I work just across the border in alberta where mule deer are on LEH, and the population is no better, just ask the guys who hunted this year after 5-6 year wait for a tag. How can that be explained? They have a very restrictive season and population is still way down.

Last years long spring was killer on the muleys, I watched them die as it dragged on, I'd drive home from work and see half a dozen deer laying in a field, return the next day to see the same deer laying in the exact same spot, they had not moved, there were dead deer laying in fields all over. And by the looks of this winter so far it's only going to be worse next season.[/QUOTE

Im not sure about the Alberta regs but I totally agree with you about the winters. You need 4-5 good winters in a row and you will see some big deer start to come back. But my argument is that if you have a long deadly winter which is killing the deer then you need to protect the remaining herd by either managing the number deer taken via hunting or through reduction of predators.

[curt]

great read thanks goat guy

[Goose]

A great article and a great discussion, very informative and well thought out responses. Thanks to everyone who has responded and has allowed this to be a great DISCUSSION, instead of turning into a back and fourth argument....Cheers guys!

[GoatGuy]

If I remember correctly, wasn't the six point season first introduced in this province, after the herds were decimated because of an extended GOS on cows/calfs that went well into November .....not a bad winter??? This is going back before many of you were actively hunting.....or even born for that matter.

I remember the slaughter that took place in the EK's over, I believe, a two year period. The cow/calf GOS was implemented because of pressure from the BC Cattlemens Association (a very powerful lobby in this province) who we're whining about elk in their hay stacks during the winter.

Also, while I don't necessarily dispute the findings of the article on page one of this thread, I don't see where the conclusions drawn are backed up by reputable science or facts unless I've missed something......which is entirely possible.:confused:

The cow/calf LEH reduced the population, which was the intent, but the bad winter in 97 was the kicker. Even the elk in Yellowstone had a massive die-off that year (no hunting there).

These papers were written for hunters by researchers across North America. There are literally hundreds of sources that went into these snippets, so that hunters could understand how things work.

[GoatGuy]

The person that wrote the article has "beliefs" also.....

That is incorrect, it wasn't written by one person. It is a summary of research and management outcomes from across North America for mule deer. There is a working group that put those papers together.

There are thousands of pages summarized to help hunters understand how to make more mule deer IF they want. The objective is to help educate people on the how's and why's of mule deer.

[GoatGuy]

Here are my thoughts on the Peace situation,

The deer population was not high because of antler and quantity restrictions. It was high because of many years of good winters and agriculture land allowing deer to survive winters they normally would not have.

The biggest factor in the drastic decline in mule deer in the peace was the 2006 winter, it had nothing to do with reg changes in 2005.

Since the population has not rebounded to pre 2006 levels, people like to blame the 3pt and doe seasons.

Several years of good winters and early springs is what is needed to bring back the muley numbers, not antler restriction.

I work just across the border in alberta where mule deer are on LEH, and the population is no better, just ask the guys who hunted this year after 5-6 year wait for a tag. How can that be explained? They have a very restrictive season and population is still way down.

Last years long spring was killer on the muleys, I watched them die as it dragged on, I'd drive home from work and see half a dozen deer laying in a field, return the next day to see the same deer laying in the exact same spot, they had not moved, there were dead deer laying in fields all over. And by the looks of this winter so far it's only going to be worse next season.

Dawson, this is absolutely correct.

The mule deer management in the Peace has been a failure for decades. Winters control the Peace deer population, particularly mule deer.

So, when you have a few good winters get out there and harvest some deer, when you have bad winters reduce the female harvest until things bounce back. The critical bit of learning in the peace is:
1) The buck seasons had no effect on the population or the 'quality' of bucks
2) You can't stockpile wildlife, particularly in areas with high WSI. When the population is high get out and harvest some antlerless, because winter will take them if you don't.

[GoatGuy]

So, if im understanding your properly, the mule deer population is starting to wane and people think that implementing a 4 point only season is the way to fix it, when in reality, it will only hurt the population even more. The reason that this is not such a big deal with the elk is that their population is healthy and in check.

Correct, people believe 4 pts seasons will help 'protect' mule deer and that the any buck season is what has hurt mule deer. Other people believe 4 pts seasons result in more 'big bucks' which is also completely false. You end up with fewer Class III and IV bucks with a 4 pts season.

Habitat is really the big key for mule deer IF people want to increase the population.

We still have the 6 pts elk season for social reasons. Many hunters believe the 6 pts bull elk season in the EK is what 'saved' elk, when it isn't. Others enjoy the 'quality of hunt', and fewer people out hunting. Others enjoy the 'big bulls' (apparently a 300" bull elk is big??). Overall, it has nothing to do with elk conservation, or management - it has everything to do with people management.

It is often ignorance that gets in the way of healthy and viable wildlife populations and antler restrictions are a prime example. You will often find hunters promoting antler restrictions as a conservation related issue to help increase wildlife populations. This has occurred in the EK for close to 20 years now, same in Region 8. Despite moving to more restrictive seasons and antler restrictions mule deer have declined significantly in several areas. We are at a bit of a crossroads here - keep doing what we've been doing and digger a bigger hole or start fixing the problem.

The question is: do we want to manage a declining resource or do we want to increase the resource?

[BCBear]

a very informative thread thumbs up

[GoatGuy]

As mentioned in my previous post....the Peace region in 2000. The deer population was high due to strict antler restrictions and 1 in 3 year rule that the agricultural community started complaining about poop in the grain and crop losses.... Then generous hunting seasons were implemented, including antlerless and any buck, and populations started to decline as planned. Then we had some hard winters which exacerbated the situation but then the generous seasons continued which should have ended and a few more hard winter continued and now we are at where we are at.

This is incorrect. The 1 in 3 rule did nothing for the deer population. The objective was to increase trophy bucks, which didn't transpire either - likely due to significant poaching because people really didn't want what the biologist wanted.

The constraint in the peace is winter. If you want more deer and bigger deer keep your fingers and toes crossed and hope for easy winters. After you have a couple get to harvesting does because otherwise they will perish at the haystacks.

[bridger]

Dawson, this is absolutely correct.

The mule deer management in the Peace has been a failure for decades. Winters control the Peace deer population, particularly mule deer.

So, when you have a few good winters get out there and harvest some deer, when you have bad winters reduce the female harvest until things bounce back. The critical bit of learning in the peace is:
1) The buck seasons had no effect on the population or the 'quality' of bucks
2) You can't stockpile wildlife, particularly in areas with high WSI. When the population is high get out and harvest some antlerless, because winter will take them if you don't.


Pretty well sums it up. The moe stockpiled mule deer for years in the peace and over hunted four point bucks. As creedmore says the winter of 2006 removed the stockpile

[GoatGuy]

Seems to be a few questions surrounding the publication.

A list of the members on the Mule Deer Working Group of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (WAFWA):

Current MembersGreg Sheehan, Director Sponsor, Utah Division of Wildlife
Jim Heffelfinger, Chair, Arizona Game and Fish Department
Shawn Gray, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Andy Lindbloom, South Dakota Department Game and Fish
Travis Williams, Saskatchewan Department of Environment and Resource Management
Kim Morton, Alberta Fish and Wildlife Division
Toby Boudreau, Idaho Department Fish & Game
Cody Schroeder, Nevada Department of Wildlife
Rob Florkiewicz, Yukon Department of Environment
Lloyd Fox, Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks
Ryan Darr, New Mexico Department of Game and Fish
Thomas Ka’iakapu, Division of Forestry and Wildlife, Hawaii
Daryl Lutz, Wyoming, Game and Fish Department
Justin Shannon, Utah Division Wildlife Resources
VACANT, Nebraska Game and Parks Department
Jerry Nelson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Karin McCoy, Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Mary Sommer, California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Bruce Stillings, North Dakota Game and Fish Department
Don Whittaker, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Brian Wakeling, Arizona Game and Fish Department
Andy Holland, Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife
George Pauley, Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Department
Erik Bartholomew, Oklahoma Dept of Wildlife Conservation
Gerald Kuzyk, British Columbia Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations
Miles Moretti, Mule Deer Foundation Liaison
George Garcia, U. S. Forest Service Liaison
Linda Cardenas, Bureau of Land Management Liaison



Past Working Group Members and other ContributorsJim Karpowitz, Director Sponsor, Utah Division of Wildlife (retired)Jim deVos, Chair, Arizona Game and Fish Department (retired)Len Carpenter, formerly CPW & Wildlife Management Institute
Dave Person, Alaska Department of Fish and GameMatt Kirchhoff, Alaska Department of Fish and GameBill Glasgow, Alberta Environment and Natural Resource Service
Ron Bjorge, Alberta Fish and Wildlife Division
Steve Rosenstock, Arizona Game and Fish Department
Ted McKinney, Arizona Game and Fish Department
Ian Hatter, British Columbia Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations
Ken Mayer, California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Craig Stowers, California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Eric Loft, California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Rick Kahn, Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife
John Ellenberger, Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife
Bruce Watkins, Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife
Jim Unsworth, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Lonn Kuck, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Brad Compton, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Bruce Ackerman, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Tom Keegan, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Michael Elmer, Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Glenn Erickson, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks
Dave Pac, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks
Gary Hammond, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks
Tom Stivers, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks
Quentin Kujala, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks
Kit Hams, Nebraska Game and Parks Commission
Bruce Trindle, Nebraska Game and Parks Commission
Mike Hess, Nevada Department of Wildlife
Mike Cox, Nevada Department of Wildlife
Barry Hale, New Mexico Department of Game and Fish
Kevin Rodden, New Mexico Department of Game and Fish
Bill Jensen, North Dakota Game and Fish Department
Dan Edwards, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Peter Test, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Tom Thornton, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Syd Barber, Saskatchewan Department of Environment and Resource Management
Adam Schmidt, Saskatchewan Department of Environment and Resource Management
Dennie Mann, South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks Department
Ted Benzon, South Dakota Department Game and Fish
Clay Brewer, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Calvin Richardson, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Mike Welch, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Anis Aoude, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Steve Flinders Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Steve Cranney, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Craig McLaughlin, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Lou Bender, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Dan Stroud, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Steve Tessmann, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
R. Scott Gamo, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Steve Siegel, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Jeff Short, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Doug McWhirter, Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Thomas Jung, Yukon Department of Environment
Brandon Mason, Mule Deer Foundation
Carlos Alcalá-Galván, Instituto Nacional de Investigaciones Forestales, Agricolas, y Pecuarias, Mexico
Nevelyn Headrick, Utah State University
Todd Black, Utah State University
Terry Messmer, Utah State University
Warren Ballard, Texas Tech University
William Miller, Arizona State University
Michael Conover, Jack H. Berryman Institute
Archie Reeve, PIC Technologies, Inc.
Danielle Chi, U.S. Forest Service
Bill Otani, U.S. Forest Service
George Buckner, Bureau of Land Management
Daniel Olson, Utah State University

[GoatGuy]

Pretty well sums it up. The moe stockpiled mule deer for years in the peace and over hunted four point bucks. As creedmore says the winter of 2006 removed the stockpile

Yes, the management regime sold to the locals was unfortunate. Hard to respect an individual who is more concerned about themselves than the resource or the people that use it.

There were a few highlights to that career but they were greatly exceeded by the low lights.

[labguy]

The cow/calf LEH reduced the population, which was the intent, but the bad winter in 97 was the kicker. Even the elk in Yellowstone had a massive die-off that year (no hunting there).

These papers were written for hunters by researchers across North America. There are literally hundreds of sources that went into these snippets, so that hunters could understand how things work.

I'm not talking about LEH for cow/calf. This was a GOS on cow/calf and it happened well before 1997.....before there was such a thing as LEH. I really can't remember the years but I'm going to guess late 60's early 70's. There were gut piles every 100 yards on many forest service roads in the EK's.

This event (read piss poor game management designed to placate the cattlemen) decimated the elk herd which has never recovered to numbers anywhere close to what they were before this slaughter.

As far as the research papers, while the conclusions drawn may be correct, they are still based on opinions from general observation and the gathering of certain data.......from which no credible scientist could possibly draw a definitive and absolute conclusion.


Look, I've heard these theories being touted and debated for half a century. I'd be very careful about embracing the latest thinking on anything related to game management.......which in this province has just about the poorest track record of any ministry since the dawning of time.........an bit of an exaggeration but not by much.:(

It is an interesting article which possibly holds some truths.......thanks for bringing it foreward.

[Husky7mm]

GG we believe you!!! "Happy habitat" will increase mule deer. Who doesnt want more mule deer? As far as it goes in region 4 its clear many are concerned about their obvious decline, its a hot topic that keeps coming up and its now popping up in other regions. So what's the immediate plan? Habitat enhancement is coming in at the snails pace, predator management pretty much nil....( BC govs broke) But lots of greedy selfish hunters out there.... Why not manage them? They want to go out hunting and wack and stack game, whatever's open really. Many would love to punch every tag they purchased so they could give themselves a good pat on the back over the Internet. Same folks that have to dump out freezer burnt meat to make room for the next round... Is not liberal elk and whitetail seasons not good enough? Why not loosen up the sheep and goat regs and exploit their populations too then? After all hunting had nothing to do with the decline of a species, right we just can't take enough of them to harm the population I have read?.... If that were true then liberal seasons would not be required to bring the elk and wt populations into check every so often. Funny they have little problem increasing their numbers albeit surrounded by piss poor habitat??

[Husky7mm]

And just so the Wannabes get it through their thick skulls.

Region 3 has 3 months of seasons (GOS and 4-point or better combined). It has heavy hunting pressure due to it's proximity to the Coast and to the Okanagan. Hell we even get quite a bit of spill over from both Region 5 and Region 4 as well. We've had incredible wolf predation in the last decade in many areas. It is pretty easy to see our deer numbers are drastically down where the wolf pressure has been heavy. And yet despite all this, we grow GIANTs like this. Region 3 has it right people. Time to get your collective asses out of the sand and start demanding the other regions follow suit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/DSC_0401_zpsd1f24889.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BCBOY/media/DSC_0401_zpsd1f24889.jpg.html)
Difference being region 3 has lots of mule deer (and very little elk). I was starting to believe you about your decimated deer herd until you posted your 2013 late season pics, more 4 points in your pics than I saw in the last 3 yrs in the Ek. It's like complaining about your shoes to someone with a wooden leg. Lol
Congrats on the matching sheds, I am sure you earned them and they are an amazing find!

[Husky7mm]

Can you give us some examples of where this strategy has been successful?

Region 5 prior to the existing two md deer limit combining with the anybuck season going into November. Within 2 yrs of the new season there was a lot of WTF's.... Region 5 used to have some excellent mule deer hunting, I am sure there were other factor at the time but it is one valid factor.

[coach]

Region 5 prior to the existing two md deer limit combining with the anybuck season going into November. Within 2 yrs of the new season there was a lot of WTF's.... Region 5 used to have some excellent mule deer hunting, I am sure there were other factor at the time but it is one valid factor.

You're saying APR's made the difference in region 5?

[dana]

Difference being region 3 has lots of mule deer (and very little elk). I was starting to believe you about your decimated deer herd until you posted your 2013 late season pics, more 4 points in your pics than I saw in the last 3 yrs in the Ek. It's like complaining about your shoes to someone with a wooden leg. Lol
Congrats on the matching sheds, I am sure you earned them and they are an amazing find!


Husky,
Did you ever read that issue of BC Outdoors? Did you ever see what the Region 3 bio said about the North Thompson? Why was his comments the only bio to mention an area hit hard by wolves??? Did your area get mentioned??? Hmmm???? I can tell ya in first 2 months of hunting I only saw 2 bucks. Both of which my kids killed. I didn't see my first legal 4 point until the 3rd week of Nov. That particular week I saw plenty of bucks. Numerous mature bucks with one absolute giant. And then guess what???? After a few hard days of rutting, they disappeared. I haven't seen much since then. Heck, I've barely seen a doe this Christmas break. What does this mean? Exactly what I've been saying all along. The deer are hiding. They have fallen right back into their 'survival' pattern. The herd mentality of yarding up will get them killed when it comes to wolves. They know that. So they each go their separate ways and to the average hunter it seems like they are all 'gone'. Heck, in the first 2 months of the season, I was even starting to believe you and your BS. I, too, was starting to believe they were in fact 'ALL DEAD'. A few days with the right timing, my attitude has changed. I had a buddy that hunted the same ground I did the week before. He saw a total of 7 deer in 7 days. Not one legal buck. Ended up getting his LEH doe on his drive out of camp as he was leaving back for the Coast. Bad timing is all. I timed my holidays about perfect this year. I have another buddy that waited till the end. He too missed it and had a very bleak last week of the season.

Tell me how do 2 absolute Giants grow up in an area overcome by wolves????? On top of that, it has been plagued by hoards of hunters flocking here for the elusive 'Gold' because some jackass named dana keeps spouting off about the big deer that live here. Hmmm, I wonder maybe it has something to do with the fact that our Region 3 Bios have a good grasp on how things work.

[M.Dean]

Small font sizes give me a headache. Must be getting old. I don't read it when it's that small, I just read the comments, then make a stupid comment based on all the other comments! I like to see my name at the top of the comment part,makes me feel real Important! I don't really give a shit what it's all about!

[Gateholio]

:roll::roll:
GG we believe you!!! "Happy habitat" will increase mule deer. Who doesnt want more mule deer? As far as it goes in region 4 its clear many are concerned about their obvious decline, its a hot topic that keeps coming up and its now popping up in other regions. So what's the immediate plan? Habitat enhancement is coming in at the snails pace, predator management pretty much nil....( BC govs broke) But lots of greedy selfish hunters out there.... Why not manage them? They want to go out hunting and wack and stack game, whatever's open really. Many would love to punch every tag they purchased so they could give themselves a good pat on the back over the Internet. Same folks that have to dump out freezer burnt meat to make room for the next round... Is not liberal elk and whitetail seasons not good enough? Why not loosen up the sheep and goat regs and exploit their populations too then? After all hunting had nothing to do with the decline of a species, right we just can't take enough of them to harm the population I have read?.... If that were true then liberal seasons would not be required to bring the elk and wt populations into check every so often. Funny they have little problem increasing their numbers albeit surrounded by piss poor habitat??

Don't most people hope to kill an animal they buy a tag for? Your arguments sound more like rants. "Those damn greedy hunters buy tags and then want to actually kill something! So greedy !"

:roll:

[BRrooster]

I believe in the old saying, " Big bucks dont get big by being stupid". To some extent, anyway, game animals are getting educated. Mule deer used to
stop and look back to see if they were safe or not or possibly to see what had scared them anyway. The one buck I saw this year didnt give me that
chance. The stupid bucks dont grow old to pass on thier genetics.
Yes, I would like to see more game animals, and I agree that there are problems in BC. Not being a Wildlife Biologist , I dont feel confident enough to comment on what should be done. Like Einstein or whoever said, every action has an equal and opposit reaction. Change something and something
else is going to happen. Somewhere out there , every option has been tried, I think. When I train a new employee at my job, I like to say, "use my
experience". Most times they dont, and learn by their own screw ups. I guess thats what is happening in BC.

On another note, how did everyones game cameras work this year? I saw more game animals after dark than during daylite hours.
cheers

[GoatGuy]

I'm not talking about LEH for cow/calf. This was a GOS on cow/calf and it happened well before 1997.....before there was such a thing as LEH. I really can't remember the years but I'm going to guess late 60's early 70's. There were gut piles every 100 yards on many forest service roads in the EK's.

This event (read piss poor game management designed to placate the cattlemen) decimated the elk herd which has never recovered to numbers anywhere close to what they were before this slaughter.

As far as the research papers, while the conclusions drawn may be correct, they are still based on opinions from general observation and the gathering of certain data.......from which no credible scientist could possibly draw a definitive and absolute conclusion.


Look, I've heard these theories being touted and debated for half a century. I'd be very careful about embracing the latest thinking on anything related to game management.......which in this province has just about the poorest track record of any ministry since the dawning of time.........an bit of an exaggeration but not by much.:(

It is an interesting article which possibly holds some truths.......thanks for bringing it foreward.

What you're referring to is a targeted reduction - apparently it worked. From your perspective the cattlemen of the day wanted elk reduced, they won the political battle, and the branch reduced the elk population. What that has to do with the thread (or "piss poor game management") is beyond me, but point taken. If you're drawing a parallel between a planned elk reduction working and APRs which don't increase the wildlife population I don't see the relationship.

The 'science' on APR is well substantiated; the conclusions have been consistent across several jurisdictions where they were tried (alberta, washington, colorado, utah, montana, oregon, idaho and on and on and on), populations were monitored regularly and animals were collared. What they have and do in the States is much different than BC. They monitor populations through inventory, collar, and dead side data. They have also conducted studies where fetal rates and reproductive success is measured and monitored. They have conducted experiments where sex ratios were drawn right down to 10:100 to see if there was an effect. The point here is antler restrictions don't make more or bigger deer.

So, if the intent is to make more deer or bigger deer why would we waste all of our resources, time and very few dollars on APRs when we could be focused on making more deer?


It isn't the 'latest thinking' it's actually quite old. Fortunately there are some researchers who care enough about the resource that they've compiled these snippets to help educate and focus stakeholders and hunters on game management. I think it's a great step forward, recognizing there are and always will be people who do not support science-based management. The juice isn't worth the squeeze for the outliers, but for the majority of people who care about the resource I think this is another tool to help get hunters focused on making more wildlife.

[ru rancher]

this is what i have begun to figure i belive to have the best of both worlds here looking at increaseing muledeer populations and trophie buck opportunity is to have where there is easy acces and high amount of hunters to have a limited entry mule deer season. reason for this is because 4 point season onloy will destroy your trophie buck population and an anybuck season would greatly deminish the buck population all together. i see that to be the only way to make everyone happy. then in areas where there is limited access i would have it as an anybuck season because there are still lots of places for the deer to hide so the general buck populatrion would still stay high also the meat hunters would be able to go out and be able to get some food for the freezer if they are willing to put in the walking and also witht he anybuck season less of the young four points would get killed and there would be a decent trophie buck population. this is just what i have came to belive would be the only way to satisfie everyones wants i know the mention of limited entry deer makes everyone turn up there nose but with certain areas i belive it is the only way to satisfy all hunters

[GoatGuy]

GG we believe you!!! "Happy habitat" will increase mule deer. Who doesnt want more mule deer? As far as it goes in region 4 its clear many are concerned about their obvious decline, its a hot topic that keeps coming up and its now popping up in other regions. So what's the immediate plan? Habitat enhancement is coming in at the snails pace, predator management pretty much nil....( BC govs broke) But lots of greedy selfish hunters out there.... Why not manage them? They want to go out hunting and wack and stack game, whatever's open really. Many would love to punch every tag they purchased so they could give themselves a good pat on the back over the Internet. Same folks that have to dump out freezer burnt meat to make room for the next round... Is not liberal elk and whitetail seasons not good enough? Why not loosen up the sheep and goat regs and exploit their populations too then? After all hunting had nothing to do with the decline of a species, right we just can't take enough of them to harm the population I have read?.... If that were true then liberal seasons would not be required to bring the elk and wt populations into check every so often. Funny they have little problem increasing their numbers albeit surrounded by piss poor habitat??

Populations are controlled through female harvest - that is why there are cow/calf seasons and wt doe seasons. You haven't had an antlerless mule deer season since the 90s and you have fewer mule deer.

It is a hot topic because some hunters have chosen to neglect science and instead follow their beliefs. There are still hunters who believe the 6 pts elk season saved elk in the EK, completely neglecting the cow/calf LEHs of the 90s and the bad winter in 97. Hunters in the Kootenays have been doing this for decades. That is why you have extremely poor habitat, and enhancement that is 'moving at a snails pace'. Hunters would rather call the manager in Cranbrook and yell at them about the any buck season then call their MLA and tell them they want funding for management and habitat enhancement. The managers in Cranbrook spend the majority of their time dealing with hunters who are worried about any buck seasons instead of management plans that will increase mule deer populations. This has been going on for decades.

The critical part here is to look over your shoulder and see how well it's worked. From my perspective the regulation approach has been a failure. There are some people who have and continue to do great things, but overall the hunting community has missed the bus in terms of wildlife management. Hunters are focused on hunting regulations instead of focusing on the resource. If 'we' were all to get on the same page and contact our MLAs we would have more money to manage and increase wildlife populations. If we continue to yell at the local manager we will continue to have game populations which decline - we are definitely good at that.

The choice is yours I suppose.

[GoatGuy]

Region 5 prior to the existing two md deer limit combining with the anybuck season going into November. Within 2 yrs of the new season there was a lot of WTF's.... Region 5 used to have some excellent mule deer hunting, I am sure there were other factor at the time but it is one valid factor.

Region 5 had a 2 deer bag limit until 2010 IIRC. The second deer harvest was minimal (couple hundred out of 3500 IIRC). Any buck went into November until 1997 across almost the entire province. The move to any buck in November in Region 5 was to increase the Class IV component. The biggest additive to buck harvest was the antlerless season running concurrently with the any buck in November increasing total buck harvest.

The outcome you refer to has to do with the hunting (or in your eyes what hunters want), not the mule deer population. Your post and inference is one of a social, not science, nature.

One last thing: When we have bad information to start out with, we end up with bad decisions and recommendations. There is a need to have good information out of the gates.

[GoatGuy]

this is what i have begun to figure i belive to have the best of both worlds here looking at increaseing muledeer populations and trophie buck opportunity is to have where there is easy acces and high amount of hunters to have a limited entry mule deer season. reason for this is because 4 point season onloy will destroy your trophie buck population and an anybuck season would greatly deminish the buck population all together. i see that to be the only way to make everyone happy. then in areas where there is limited access i would have it as an anybuck season because there are still lots of places for the deer to hide so the general buck populatrion would still stay high also the meat hunters would be able to go out and be able to get some food for the freezer if they are willing to put in the walking and also witht he anybuck season less of the young four points would get killed and there would be a decent trophie buck population. this is just what i have came to belive would be the only way to satisfie everyones wants i know the mention of limited entry deer makes everyone turn up there nose but with certain areas i belive it is the only way to satisfy all hunters

The best thing to do is to create a more productive deer population. You'll end up with way more deer and bucks with fawn:doe ratios of 80:100 than 25:100.

In terms of access, the trick is to manage access to ensure your management and harvest goals are achieved. It is unlikely the guy that wants a 2 pt is willing to hike-in for 2 days.

[ru rancher]

The best thing to do is to create a more productive deer population. You'll end up with way more deer and bucks with fawn:doe ratios of 80:100 than 25:100.

In terms of access, the trick is to manage access to ensure your management and harvest goals are achieved. It is unlikely the guy that wants a 2 pt is willing to hike-in for 2 days.
more productive deer population now how do you achieve that?

[GoatGuy]

more productive deer population now how do you achieve that?

habitat.......

[ru rancher]

habitat.......
maybe i should say what would you do to help the habitat then?? just saying fix the habitat means nothing

[GoatGuy]

maybe i should say what would you do to help the habitat then?? just saying fix the habitat means nothing

for the most part burn it.....

[ru rancher]

hahahah i say very bad plan. i asume this is in response to the bug kill? those areas could use a good burn and in most cases will get it but when youe get close to peoples property not a good idea. and what abotu the areas where there isnt huge amounts of bug kill those areas still need to be regulated

[GoatGuy]

hahahah i say very bad plan. i asume this is in response to the bug kill? those areas could use a good burn and in most cases will get it but when youe get close to peoples property not a good idea. and what abotu the areas where there isnt huge amounts of bug kill those areas still need to be regulated

Most of southern and central BC is supposed to be a fire-maintained ecosystem. Burns are a part of the 'cycle'. Really has nothing to do with bug kill.

Burning close to people's house in a controlled situation really isn't a bad idea when you consider what happens when we don't burn and allow fuel to build up on the forest floor. We end up with things like what happened in Kelowna where fires are out of control and you end up with 200 houses burned down and 30,000 ppl evacuated. Where it is too close to the interface you can use mechanical thinning as well.

Here's a good link for those that are keen:

http://trench-er.com/

[eric]

When Elk were transplanted along the Moberly river in, I believe the 80s ,at that time they used prescribed burns every spring for 3-4 yrs to help the Habitat.
What happened..the Elk population exploded.
It's time to set a fire under the Government arse,so they will allow the wildlife managers to use controlled fire burns again...it works

[GoatGuy]

When Elk were transplanted along the Moberly river in, I believe the 80s ,at that time they used prescribed burns every spring for 3-4 yrs to help the Habitat.
What happened..the Elk population exploded.
It's time to set a fire under the Government arse,so they will allow the wildlife managers to use controlled fire burns again...it works
You got 'er....

[325]

It would be a great think to see some controlled burns for habitat enhancement throughout BC, however, the challenge post-burn would be to see succession of valuable native plant species, rather than a proliferation of noxious introduced species, which at least in Southern BC, would be a possible outcome

[ru rancher]

Most of southern and central BC is supposed to be a fire-maintained ecosystem. Burns are a part of the 'cycle'. Really has nothing to do with bug kill.

Burning close to people's house in a controlled situation really isn't a bad idea when you consider what happens when we don't burn and allow fuel to build up on the forest floor. We end up with things like what happened in Kelowna where fires are out of control and you end up with 200 houses burned down and 30,000 ppl evacuated. Where it is too close to the interface you can use mechanical thinning as well.

Here's a good link for those that are keen:

http://trench-er.com/
yes i know its a cylce just like out in the chilcotin but thats not all of bc and all of bc seams to have poeple complaining about either lack of trophie bucks or lack of bucks in general so what about those areas whats rong with them or are the people just to bitchy in those areas?

[ru rancher]

When Elk were transplanted along the Moberly river in, I believe the 80s ,at that time they used prescribed burns every spring for 3-4 yrs to help the Habitat.
What happened..the Elk population exploded.
It's time to set a fire under the Government arse,so they will allow the wildlife managers to use controlled fire burns again...it works
in those areas it does amazing stuff for the environment went out and saw some of the burns in the chilcotin the amount of grass was insane i couldnt belive my eyes a controlled burn would do lots for the deer although it is alot easyer to hunt in sure opens the area up so then that adds to the easy access

[Husky7mm]

Husky,
Did you ever read that issue of BC Outdoors? Did you ever see what the Region 3 bio said about the North Thompson? Why was his comments the only bio to mention an area hit hard by wolves??? Did your area get mentioned??? Hmmm???? I can tell ya in first 2 months of hunting I only saw 2 bucks. Both of which my kids killed. I didn't see my first legal 4 point until the 3rd week of Nov. That particular week I saw plenty of bucks. Numerous mature bucks with one absolute giant. And then guess what???? After a few hard days of rutting, they disappeared. I haven't seen much since then. Heck, I've barely seen a doe this Christmas break. What does this mean? Exactly what I've been saying all along. The deer are hiding. They have fallen right back into their 'survival' pattern. The herd mentality of yarding up will get them killed when it comes to wolves. They know that. So they each go their separate ways and to the average hunter it seems like they are all 'gone'. Heck, in the first 2 months of the season, I was even starting to believe you and your BS. I, too, was starting to believe they were in fact 'ALL DEAD'. A few days with the right timing, my attitude has changed. I had a buddy that hunted the same ground I did the week before. He saw a total of 7 deer in 7 days. Not one legal buck. Ended up getting his LEH doe on his drive out of camp as he was leaving back for the Coast. Bad timing is all. I timed my holidays about perfect this year. I have another buddy that waited till the end. He too missed it and had a very bleak last week of the season.

Tell me how do 2 absolute Giants grow up in an area overcome by wolves????? On top of that, it has been plagued by hoards of hunters flocking here for the elusive 'Gold' because some jackass named dana keeps spouting off about the big deer that live here. Hmmm, I wonder maybe it has something to do with the fact that our Region 3 Bios have a good grasp on how things work.

They sure did mention it. Read it again. The people writing for the bc outdoors are far from experts btw. ( I do know they were quoting the bio btw I mean on much of the info they print)
I still can't figure out why because your region 3 experiences are different from much of the region 4 hunter experiences you feel the need to comment on their lack of or sub-par effort, I mean no one else could possibly hunt as hard as you.....
hmmm, my friends and I kill moose every time we get a draw ( every yr Or two) in reg 4 and 7 , I guess all the region 5 people worried about their lack of moose are just lazy " average" hunters..... It couldn't be any different, I mean we see lots of moose and always punch our tags? Fack em there is no moose problem there.


Not to degrade your family hunting experiences of this year but if all two months of hard hunting yeilded was two little mulies buck sighting why shoot them? I mean before you ran into possibly the last decent pocket of deer in your area you were considering the possibility that they were "all dead" so why shoot the last two?


A quick look at the hbc mulie threads shows what region 3 is producing, where's the reg 4 threads on it, oh wait there is barely a few, I must of missed if there even was one this year.

[Husky7mm]

You're saying APR's made the difference in region 5?
not familiar with the term. Just saying that the mule deer hunting was great, perhaps too many deer even. The changed the regulations and very quickly the party was over.

[bridger]

When Elk were transplanted along the Moberly river in, I believe the 80s ,at that time they used prescribed burns every spring for 3-4 yrs to help the Habitat.
What happened..the Elk population exploded.
It's time to set a fire under the Government arse,so they will allow the wildlife managers to use controlled fire burns again...it works

elk were not tranplanted on the moberly. Historically there was a small population there. There was only one prescribed burn. It was organized and carried out bythe north peace rod & gun club. The first in the province as aresult of te burn theelk population on there moberly expanded rapidly. A testament to habitat improvement for sure.

[coach]

not familiar with the term. Just saying that the mule deer hunting was great, perhaps too many deer even. The changed the regulations and very quickly the party was over.

APR's? That's what this thread is about: Antler Point Restrictions. :-D I still can't figure out what you are referring to with regard to region 5. I think you have some of your facts mixed up. :confused:

[Husky7mm]

Region 5 had a 2 deer bag limit until 2010 IIRC. The second deer harvest was minimal (couple hundred out of 3500 IIRC). Any buck went into November until 1997 across almost the entire province. The move to any buck in November in Region 5 was to increase the Class IV component. The biggest additive to buck harvest was the antlerless season running concurrently with the any buck in November increasing total buck harvest.

The outcome you refer to has to do with the hunting (or in your eyes what hunters want), not the mule deer population. Your post and inference is one of a social, not science, nature.

One last thing: When we have bad information to start out with, we end up with bad decisions and recommendations. There is a need to have good information out of the gates.

So your saying that because the leh doe season ran along side the nov buck season it increased the total buck harvest? Nothing to do with the fact that suddenly you could shoot 2 bucks with a day of each other all in one trip right during the rut? Perhaps a it of this and that, point being the regulations changed, the harvest went up enough it was obvious that the deer had decrease.

[GoatGuy]

It would be a great think to see some controlled burns for habitat enhancement throughout BC, however, the challenge post-burn would be to see succession of valuable native plant species, rather than a proliferation of noxious introduced species, which at least in Southern BC, would be a possible outcome

Read the link posted, bit of info on weeds versus native species post treatment.

[dana]

Husky,
Why did my kids kill the 2 bucks? easy, because they like to hunt and love to eat deer meat!

We are not stupid enough to think that there is a conservation concern with mule deer because we find the hunting hard. Really, who cares that the hunting is hard, just makes the successes more of an accomplishment. Even though we saw few bucks, we saw plenty of does. I also pay attention during the rest of the year and happened to see plenty of bucks during the spring. Many in areas I never saw many deer in in the past. But, you are right, we should just give up and throw in the towel when we encounter something hard in our lives right? I can tell ya I have raised my kids to suck it up and just keep trying.

As for your assumption that I think I'm something special, sorry to disappoint you, I'm just a guy that likes to hunt. I haven't punched a muley buck tag since 2010. I post up pics to inspire people to get out and enjoy this great province of ours. I posted up those sheds to show guys like you that have been moaning that there are no big bucks blah blah blah, that there is indeed some that are just plain smart. I've never seen hide nor hair of that buck. He grew up right under my nose and 2 years of hunting hard for him has proven that is is way smarter than me. And I am good with that. He isn't the only giant that has ever kicked my ass and he won't be the last. I have a lot of respect for these critters and know that hunting them on their home turf means they will win way more than I ever will. I am not naive enough to think that I am such a super hunter that I have ever seen every deer in my area. Seem to remember comments from you that you think that way about your own hunting abilities though. ;) I can attest to the fact that it may sometimes feel grim but there is Hope! Mule deer are no where near extinction. They are not a species at risk. Time to stop the bitching and just suck it up Princess.

[GoatGuy]

So your saying that because the leh doe season ran along side the nov buck season it increased the total buck harvest? Nothing to do with the fact that suddenly you could shoot 2 bucks with a day of each other all in one trip right during the rut?

That is correct, at least according to the data.


Perhaps a it of this and that, point being the regulations changed, the harvest went up enough it was obvious that the deer had decrease.

Probably not. Females control the population, not males - significant increase in female mule deer results in population decline. Increase in buck harvest results in fewer bucks post season but does not result in a population decline.

As mentioned, a person should try to be informed before coming to a conclusion. You seem to wrap everything up with conclusions without knowing the seasons, harvest or data. This is a major challenge, perhaps insurmountable.

[GoatGuy]

not familiar with the term. Just saying that the mule deer hunting was great, perhaps too many deer even. The changed the regulations and very quickly the party was over.

note - this has everything to do with the hunter, nothing to do with the deer. You're talking about the hunting, without worrying about the resource.

[dana]

I should also add that the hunting was pretty tuff for trophy mule deer in 2013 for most of the West. Not a ton of 200 inchers posted up on internet from other places. Most reports from hunters that I've seen say pretty much the same as here. Deer sightings were down, big bucks were rare and overall harvest of trophy mule deer is way down. This is not something special to just BC.

[Gateholio]

They sure did mention it. Read it again. The people writing for the bc outdoors are far from experts btw. ( I do know they were quoting the bio btw I mean on much of the info they print)
I still can't figure out why because your region 3 experiences are different from much of the region 4 hunter experiences you feel the need to comment on their lack of or sub-par effort, I mean no one else could possibly hunt as hard as you.....
hmmm, my friends and I kill moose every time we get a draw ( every yr Or two) in reg 4 and 7 , I guess all the region 5 people worried about their lack of moose are just lazy " average" hunters..... It couldn't be any different, I mean we see lots of moose and always punch our tags? Fack em there is no moose problem there.


Not to degrade your family hunting experiences of this year but if all two months of hard hunting yeilded was two little mulies buck sighting why shoot them? I mean before you ran into possibly the last decent pocket of deer in your area you were considering the possibility that they were "all dead" so why shoot the last two?


A quick look at the hbc mulie threads shows what region 3 is producing, where's the reg 4 threads on it, oh wait there is barely a few, I must of missed if there even was one this year.

Why shoot them?

a) they were hunting for deer and they had tags

b) those deer were obviously not the only deer alive in the area.

I am surprised you needed to ask those questions. The answers are so obvious to all but the intentionally obtuse.

[coach]

Here's a good link for those that are keen:

http://trench-er.com/

More great reading. Thanks again, GG.

[dana]

Husky,
I'm not really sure what you are talking about in Region 5. A few short years ago they were over run with deer and handing out 1000s of doe tags. The only major changes they have done is drop the 2 buck limit and close the season down for 10 days in Nov. They still have an any buck season. Are you saying their 4 point seasons saved their deer or what? Not sure I understand. They have been hit hard by the same wolves as northern Region 3 so combined with the high doe harvest, their numbers are definately down. But still plenty of deer to be had including trophy bucks.

[dana]

I remember that some wrongfully accused Dually as being an anti hunter due to his comments. I'm thinking that soon those same accusations will be pointed at Husky. :) ;)

[ru rancher]

Husky,
Why did my kids kill the 2 bucks? easy, because they like to hunt and love to eat deer meat!

We are not stupid enough to think that there is a conservation concern with mule deer because we find the hunting hard. Really, who cares that the hunting is hard, just makes the successes more of an accomplishment. Even though we saw few bucks, we saw plenty of does. I also pay attention during the rest of the year and happened to see plenty of bucks during the spring. Many in areas I never saw many deer in in the past. But, you are right, we should just give up and throw in the towel when we encounter something hard in our lives right? I can tell ya I have raised my kids to suck it up and just keep trying.

As for your assumption that I think I'm something special, sorry to disappoint you, I'm just a guy that likes to hunt. I haven't punched a muley buck tag since 2010. I post up pics to inspire people to get out and enjoy this great province of ours. I posted up those sheds to show guys like you that have been moaning that there are no big bucks blah blah blah, that there is indeed some that are just plain smart. I've never seen hide nor hair of that buck. He grew up right under my nose and 2 years of hunting hard for him has proven that is is way smarter than me. And I am good with that. He isn't the only giant that has ever kicked my ass and he won't be the last. I have a lot of respect for these critters and know that hunting them on their home turf means they will win way more than I ever will. I am not naive enough to think that I am such a super hunter that I have ever seen every deer in my area. Seem to remember comments from you that you think that way about your own hunting abilities though. ;) I can attest to the fact that it may sometimes feel grim but there is Hope! Mule deer are no where near extinction. They are not a species at risk. Time to stop the bitching and just suck it up Princess.
thank you for saying that exactly what i think when people accuse me of being a great huinter never once did i say i was just said i like to hunt and i like to go for a personal trophie never once claimed i saw everydeer that i crossed paths with

[one-shot-wonder]

On another note, how did everyones game cameras work this year? I saw more game animals after dark than during daylite hours.
cheers

Our crew's cameras worked great, we have photos of the"rare and elusive" R8 mule deer bucks, but my personal highlight for the year is the photo evidence of the "endangered R8 wt doe".

be careful when referring to photo evidence from trail cams, I was lamb basted a few weeks back on virtually the exact type of APR thread....seems some people don't like to be proven wrong.

[coach]

thank you for saying that exactly what i think when people accuse me of being a great huinter never once did i say i was just said i like to hunt and i like to go for a personal trophie never once claimed i saw everydeer that i crossed paths with

Wait a minute.. People are accusing you of being a great hunter? Who are these people? Now I'm really confused. I thought this thread was about APR's. :confused:

[ru rancher]

Wait a minute.. People are accusing you of being a great hunter? Who are these people? Now I'm really confused. I thought this thread was about APR's. :confused:
ill try to take this as not an insault hahah but people just sarcasticly make that comment because i always say wait for a mature buck and dont shoot the little immys that cross your path. but i would say im a pritty good bear hunter well i think its mostly my spot we got alot of big beautiful colour phased bears! althouhg my biggest bear is black got a 20 inch skull and front teath growned down to the gums. but yes its about point restriction just makeing a point because i thought it was a great thing dana said give me a break lol

[dana]

In all the ups and downs in wildlife populations in this province in the last 100 years, why is every down blamed on the managers and seasons??? Funny to think that someone mentioned what happened in the 60s and then forget about the 3 different booms since then. Just because hunting is hard right now doesn't mean it will be that way forever. There will be ups again. We are not sitting at the edge of the end of the world people! The Sky will still be there tommorrow. ;)

[coach]

In all the ups and downs in wildlife populations in this province in the last 100 years, why is every down blamed on the managers and seasons??? Funny to think that someone mentioned what happened in the 60s and then forget about the 3 different booms since then. Just because hunting is hard right now doesn't mean it will be that way forever. There will be ups again. We are not sitting at the edge of the end of the world people! The Sky will still be there tommorrow. ;)

Good point, Dana. I think the key is for all of us to realize that we can do a number of things to benefit wildlife to help ensure we see the "ups" a little sooner and the "downs" won't be as bad. Dealing with funding, habitat and predators would be a start. Wasting time on APR's isn't the answer.

[ru rancher]

In all the ups and downs in wildlife populations in this province in the last 100 years, why is every down blamed on the managers and seasons??? Funny to think that someone mentioned what happened in the 60s and then forget about the 3 different booms since then. Just because hunting is hard right now doesn't mean it will be that way forever. There will be ups again. We are not sitting at the edge of the end of the world people! The Sky will still be there tommorrow. ;)
sure there are ups and downs in nature thats just the way it goes but when it is humans that cause the downs thats when things can turn south real quick

[knockturnal]

So, bottom line, what is it exactly that needs to be done? Reduced harvest? Shortened seasons? antlerless harvest? 4-point changed to anybuck season? Habitat conservation? predator control?

Why dont we stop bitching between ourselves and look at the bigger picture here. And that is preserving our awesome BC mulies for generations to come.

[hunter1993ap]

In all the ups and downs in wildlife populations in this province in the last 100 years, why is every down blamed on the managers and seasons??? Funny to think that someone mentioned what happened in the 60s and then forget about the 3 different booms since then. Just because hunting is hard right now doesn't mean it will be that way forever. There will be ups again. We are not sitting at the edge of the end of the world people! The Sky will still be there tommorrow. ;)
I'm with you on the idea of a cycle. I'm fairly new to the game but from my experience I have seen the cycle. I started going out with my dad in the bush from a very young age. when I was really young he would drag me behind him and we would always see deer, and some very nice ones. things were great around here, we always picked up big sheds and spent lots of time in the field year round. the last few years the sheds have dropped off and have been seeing less and less deer. I am hopping the cycle turns around in the next few years because hunting has been hard. each year seems to get a little harder and harder. I still find nice deer but it takes huge effort and time spent in the field. I've had to change my ways of hunting and spend way more time scouting. it only makes a guy better in the long run, grinding through the hard times were in now.

[ru rancher]

So, bottom line, what is it exactly that needs to be done? Reduced harvest? Shortened seasons? antlerless harvest? 4-point changed to anybuck season? Habitat conservation? predator control?

Why dont we stop bitching between ourselves and look at the bigger picture here. And that is preserving our awesome BC mulies for generations to come.
i put in my two cents earlyer on what i belive would be the only way to have the best for everyone even though there would still be some bitching for the people that hunt now the new hunters wouldnt know the diffrence and there would be some great opportunites i think

[coach]

So, bottom line, what is it exactly that needs to be done? Reduced harvest? Shortened seasons? antlerless harvest? 4-point changed to anybuck season? Habitat conservation? predator control?

Why dont we stop bitching between ourselves and look at the bigger picture here. And that is preserving our awesome BC mulies for generations to come.

I'm reposting this link GG provided earlier. Looks like a very positive undertaking that, unlike more regulation of hunters, will result in more deer. http://trench-er.com

[ru rancher]

I'm reposting this link GG provided earlier. Looks like a very positive undertaking that, unlike more regulation of hunters, will result in more deer. http://trench-er.com
i dont think you get it sure that probably would work for southern Bc and all other traditionally forest fire controlled grass land areas but what of the rest of BC your thinking of only a small portion maybe thats because you live in that area and dont care about the rest of it. from what iv heard this year it sounds like most of BC the mule deer sightings and such have bin down cant all be solved by burning

[coach]

I'm with you on the idea of a cycle. I'm fairly new to the game but from my experience I have seen the cycle. I started going out with my dad in the bush from a very young age. when I was really young he would drag me behind him and we would always see deer, and some very nice ones. things were great around here, we always picked up big sheds and spent lots of time in the field year round. the last few years the sheds have dropped off and have been seeing less and less deer. I am hopping the cycle turns around in the next few years because hunting has been hard. each year seems to get a little harder and harder. I still find nice deer but it takes huge effort and time spent in the field. I've had to change my ways of hunting and spend way more time scouting. it only makes a guy better in the long run, grinding through the hard times were in now.

How has the habitat changed in the area you like to hunt?

[coach]

i dont think you get it sure that probably would work for southern Bc and all other traditionally forest fire controlled grass land areas but what of the rest of BC your thinking of only a small portion maybe thats because you live in that area and dont care about the rest of it. from what iv heard this year it sounds like most of BC the mule deer sightings and such have bin down cant all be solved by burning

Maybe you should do more reading and less typing.. And while you're at it, start using punctuation. :-D

[knockturnal]

i dont think you get it sure that probably would work for southern Bc and all other traditionally forest fire controlled grass land areas but what of the rest of BC your thinking of only a small portion maybe thats because you live in that area and dont care about the rest of it. from what iv heard this year it sounds like most of BC the mule deer sightings and such have bin down cant all be solved by burning

Last time I checked, Im pretty sure you could burn down all of BC. Not just "southern BC and other traditionally forest fire controlled grass land areas."


edit..... ok.. maybe not Prince Rupert.... :-D

[Sitkaspruce]

i dont think you get it sure that probably would work for southern Bc and all other traditionally forest fire controlled grass land areas but what of the rest of BC your thinking of only a small portion maybe thats because you live in that area and dont care about the rest of it. from what iv heard this year it sounds like most of BC the mule deer sightings and such have bin down cant all be solved by burning

Most of BC is affected by fire, which benefits all wildlife. All pine stands are fire stands and need fire or other disturbance to regrow. They are serial stands, old growth is anything over 120 yo. Burns benefit all species, just not deer.

We need to let a few small fires get bigger, but not too hot as that is not good for regrowth of most species of plants.

And please, learn to spell and use punctuation. I thought you were in UBC?? You must drive your teachers wild if you spell like you do on here.

Cheers

SS

[hunter1993ap]

How has the habitat changed in the area you like to hunt?

things I have noticed have been logging, new roads, preds, and there has been some habitat restoration in a few areas. pretty much things that happen everywhere in bc. I havnt noticed a huge change in the areas I hunt but my dad has seen it on a huge scale. there used to be very little access and lots of untouched ground. that's getting harder and harder to find now.

[Husky7mm]

Husky,
I'm not really sure what you are talking about in Region 5. A few short years ago they were over run with deer and handing out 1000s of doe tags. The only major changes they have done is drop the 2 buck limit and close the season down for 10 days in Nov. They still have an any buck season. Are you saying their 4 point seasons saved their deer or what? Not sure I understand. They have been hit hard by the same wolves as northern Region 3 so combined with the high doe harvest, their numbers are definately down. But still plenty of deer to be had including trophy bucks.
Didn't say it saved anything, just made for some really action packed hunting, and that shortly after the season changed it was evident......

[frenchbar]

Didn't say it saved anything, just made for some really action packed hunting, and that shortly after the season changed it was evident...... what exactly is action packed hunting?....ive been hunting reg 3 and 5 in a few areas for 38 yrs and nothing much has changed over the yrs in my eyes anyways .some days i see some bucks some days i dont...:confused: some days there big bucks ..some days there smaller younger bucks .

[Husky7mm]

thank you for saying that exactly what i think when people accuse me of being a great huinter never once did i say i was just said i like to hunt and i like to go for a personal trophie never once claimed i saw everydeer that i crossed paths with

You obviously have not been around for very long.... Dana sings a different tune now a days after his own friend gave him shit on open forum. Pretty easy to like now , I almost feel guilty:razz:

[ru rancher]

well i see everyone is hating and bringing up off topic stuff like my punctuation trust me its more of a pain in the ass for me then anyone else. so leave me alone about it dont read it if your just going to bitch about it!!

[Husky7mm]

what exactly is action packed hunting?....ive been hunting reg 3 and 5 in a few areas for 38 yrs and nothing much has changed over the yrs in my eyes anyways .some days i see some bucks some days i dont...:confused: some days there big bucks ..some days there smaller younger bucks .

Well for me it was multiple chances and sightings per trip and or per day on fairly mature bucks. At least 1+ monster sighting per trip. Reward for effort. Burn boot leather and turn up bucks, glass for hrs and turn up bucks.
I am not at flat top hunter as I know what follows a few years of antlerless seasons, dryer times...I like to see them with a bunch of fawns in tow, happy and healthy and making more bucks and does for the future.( indictive of a healthy population to me) I understand there needs to be a harvest once in a awhile but I'll leave it to those that don't have the back or legs for it and a dream of something special just over the next hill. I know management feels they've done there job if these game begin harvested albeit yearlings and or does, I just don't like riding the rollercoaster. I believe opportunity should given only when its affordable. That certainly does not apply to the areas that no nothing of, I'm sure there is plenty of mulie strongholds left else where in BC. I know, I know I shouldn't "believe" it's wrong

[BCrams]

And please, learn to spell and use punctuation. I thought you were in UBC?? You must drive your teachers wild if you spell like you do on here.

Quote of the day! lol

[dingdongdenny]

Just how much of our "Habitat Conservation Fund" is going to where it is supposed to go? What are the facts? Where are the funds of our hunting
liscence fees, tag fees, LEH fees going?
very good question, the tire industry had the same problem as the tire levi went in with my pst into general revenue.The provincal gov collected
12 million dollars and only 2 million went back into the clean up and recycling of tires.
the tire industry took it over and know all your dollars go to cleaning up the mess left from the government.

[boxhitch]

Just as easy as taking a look at the HCTF site for reports on spending , to see where the bucks are going including studies on bugs , frogs , grasses and weeds.
Remember it is habitat conservation , not hunter conservation.

You may also note how much $$$ goes to the Gov't of BC to cover projects when taxpayer dollars are not available from Victoria.

[dana]

You obviously have not been around for very long.... Dana sings a different tune now a days after his own friend gave him shit on open forum. Pretty easy to like now , I almost feel guilty:razz:

hahaha, he was laughing his ass off about that. :) :)

[dana]

Well for me it was multiple chances and sightings per trip and or per day on fairly mature bucks. At least 1+ monster sighting per trip. Reward for effort. Burn boot leather and turn up bucks, glass for hrs and turn up bucks.
I am not at flat top hunter as I know what follows a few years of antlerless seasons, dryer times...I like to see them with a bunch of fawns in tow, happy and healthy and making more bucks and does for the future.( indictive of a healthy population to me) I understand there needs to be a harvest once in a awhile but I'll leave it to those that don't have the back or legs for it and a dream of something special just over the next hill. I know management feels they've done there job if these game begin harvested albeit yearlings and or does, I just don't like riding the rollercoaster. I believe opportunity should given only when its affordable. That certainly does not apply to the areas that no nothing of, I'm sure there is plenty of mulie strongholds left else where in BC. I know, I know I shouldn't "believe" it's wrong


I never found the hunting in Region 5 before these latest season changes to be very difficult. Always seen lots of deer. Way more than I ever saw here in my part of Region 3. Could see countless bucks per day. Even with high hunting pressure. Always saw the mature bucks further back from the roads, but that goes without saying. So I don't know if you can say the season changes have made thing better. I'd say things have remained about the same.

[Husky7mm]

Not better, worse. What I experienced prior to the changes is way different than many region 5 mule deer threads i read and all of the hunts that people I know have done there since. I have not been there since 1-2 yrs post reg changes.

[dana]

Soooo, you are saying when the regs were less stringent the hunting was better??? Hmmm, interesting. I seem to remember a 2 muley buck limit, a longer any buck season and a season open in the peak of the rut. Are you really saying that the trophy hunters that presured the manager to the grow bigger bucks through season changes were somehow wrong??? I'm confused to what you are trying to say.

[coach]

Not better, worse. What I experienced prior to the changes is way different than many region 5 mule deer threads i read and all of the hunts that people I know have done there since. I have not been there since 1-2 yrs post reg changes.

Im sofa king confused by your posts on this, husky. Earlier you stated that region 5 was an example of a region where APR's were successfully used as a management tool. Now you're saying things are worse. What's the deal?

Here's a link to some FAQ's on region 5 MD that was released when the most recent regulation changes went in to place in 2009: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/WMIMuleDeer.pdf

[Husky7mm]

Sorry I have been in camp for weeks with piss poor reception posting on my phone. Between auto correct , my poor English , grammar, spelling , losing signal and timing out its not fun anymore , aside from the obvious.... Ill try again I feel it was because of the APRs that region 5 had such good mulie buck hunting. They already had lots of deer, so many they had a 2 mule deer limit. It worked until the anybuck season overlapped the rut. When they expanded the anybuck season into November and the rut a ton of people came and shot an "any buck " or "meat" buck and a mature buck within days of each other. IMO it created a double dip if you will, no need to be picky and come home with nothing. ( not everyone can make multiple trips) Anyways so significant was the buck harvest hunters noticed within the 1st or 2nd yr. "where are all the mature bucks and or where are the bucks?" Heard it all the time. People were so attracted to that "opportunity" they shot that years buck plus next years up and comer in one fowl swoop. That all went down somewhere early to mid 2000's. The regs changed shortly after in an attempt to provide mature buck escapement, they had a 10 day rut closer. I would be surprised if that accomplished much if anything.
Anyways IMO a change in the APR can have a positive or negative effect and it is measurable down stream of the change.

[dana]

So you are suggesting the early 4 point season and the late 4 point season with a long any buck season in between was the reason the hunting was so good??? Doesn't that kinda sound similiar to what Region 3 has right now???

[Husky7mm]

Yes, opportunity where its afforded. With the amount of mule deer reg 5 had it was probably on the conservative side. It worked well with the demand and supply

[Husky7mm]

Sorry I may have muffed up the years, the action packed hunting that I believe was sustainable was before anybuck was extended into nov. I used to collect regs but you can't keep everything forever, you will end up on "hoarders" lol

[GoatGuy]

Sorry I have been in camp for weeks with piss poor reception posting on my phone. Between auto correct , my poor English , grammar, spelling , losing signal and timing out its not fun anymore , aside from the obvious.... Ill try again I feel it was because of the APRs that region 5 had such good mulie buck hunting. They already had lots of deer, so many they had a 2 mule deer limit. It worked until the anybuck season overlapped the rut. When they expanded the anybuck season into November and the rut a ton of people came and shot an "any buck " or "meat" buck and a mature buck within days of each other. IMO it created a double dip if you will, no need to be picky and come home with nothing. ( not everyone can make multiple trips) Anyways so significant was the buck harvest hunters noticed within the 1st or 2nd yr. "where are all the mature bucks and or where are the bucks?" Heard it all the time. People were so attracted to that "opportunity" they shot that years buck plus next years up and comer in one fowl swoop. That all went down somewhere early to mid 2000's. The regs changed shortly after in an attempt to provide mature buck escapement, they had a 10 day rut closer. I would be surprised if that accomplished much if anything.
Anyways IMO a change in the APR can have a positive or negative effect and it is measurable down stream of the change.

The second buck harvest was between ~60-120 out of a total buck harvest of close to 4,000 in Region 5.

Insignificant.

You have come up with conclusions without having any of the data. Poor approach to decision making.

[dana]

Husky
You may have forgotten that in those years you are referring to the Any Buck season went from Sept 10 through Oct 30. They harvested over all age classes and yes, it worked very well. Well enough to allow for a 2 buck harvest. And there were some of us that carried 2 tags for the early season back to back seasons. I never did cut 2 tags but had them just in case.

[Husky7mm]

Checking the math is only one part of the equation. The seasons appeal brought extra people and groups weather they harvested one or two. The generous overlap of seasons possibly created an environment where folks felt they had a tags to burn all season long. Get one on the ground and still possibly an additional meat buck or big buck later on , weather the second one happened or not. The reaction to the effect of the change was across the board, and IMO a fail. Those reading were invited to give example of where an APR helped , I worked it backwards, I gave one where a change in the APR turned very good hunting ( year after year) into an across the board consensus that " all the bucks where gone"
Perhaps for the future I will dig up some old regs first so I have a time line.
The hunting for the male component was steady and, in short awesome before the change , and not so after. My conclusion was action and reaction.

[Husky7mm]

Husky
You may have forgotten that in those years you are referring to the Any Buck season went from Sept 10 through Oct 30. They harvested over all age classes and yes, it worked very well. Well enough to allow for a 2 buck harvest. And there were some of us that carried 2 tags for the early season back to back seasons. I never did cut 2 tags but had them just in case.
I did forget that, what is interesting was how good the hunting actually was there shortly after the horrible winter of 97, the same winter that they say the kootenay mulies never bounced back from.

[Husky7mm]

GG, 1 am is a great time to be sleeping, just saying......

[dana]

So your credit to APR isn't taking into account that they were harvesting over all age classes for almost 2 months. The Blame of greedy hunters doesn't hold up as they had a 2 deer limit for years. Where APRs work is when they are used in conjunction with Any Buck Seasons. Where they fail is when they are used exclusively.

[dana]

Both 3 & 5 we're not hit hard in 96 or 98. 4 & 8 we're hit hard by both winters.

[hunter1947]

You can't compare one region to the other many different thing can cause the numbers on the mule deer population ,,habitat ,hunting pressure ,road excess ,predators ,buck to doe ratios etc so many can cause the low numbers in different regions management are suppose to be the experts why can't they figure it out ??..

There are only a few that are experts on this thread knowing what it takes to increase the MDP won't mention any names but what I have read they know what they are talking about ,, my thoughts are that revenue for management has lots to do with all.....

[Husky7mm]

So your credit to APR isn't taking into account that they were harvesting over all age classes for almost 2 months. The Blame of greedy hunters doesn't hold up as they had a 2 deer limit for years. Where APRs work is when they are used in conjunction with Any Buck Seasons. Where they fail is when they are used exclusively.
I acknowledged the existing two deer limit that did not go into November..... It was the extension that affected the mule buck hunting. I put out my theroy on it also. Have you an original thought about the degrade in the buck hunting in reg 5 during that time? When those regs came out the first thing I thought was they want to reduce the deer, as I was already aware of the doe leh.

[GoatGuy]

I acknowledged the existing two deer limit that did not go into November..... It was the extension that affected the mule buck hunting. I put out my theroy on it also. Have you an original thought about the degrade in the buck hunting in reg 5 during that time? When those regs came out the first thing I thought was they want to reduce the deer, as I was already aware of the doe leh.

Thought we dealt with your theory about 30 posts ago? With data to support......

Getting to be a couple years of this "come up with a conclusion and grasp at straws to support it." It's kinda like looking at the bank account Dec 31 and saying the tax man took it all....... sounds good, but there's nothing to support it. Or better yet getting the facts wrong and still substantiating the theory.

[GoatGuy]

my thoughts are that revenue for management has lots to do with all.....

This is bang on H47!

[dana]

I already told you my thoughts on Region 5. I have never seen a 'problem' as you seem to put it. The hunting seems fine right now. The overal numbers are down from the over population they had a few years ago. This is a direct result of both doe harvest and wolf predation. I did think the reg change that allowed any buck harvest into nov was silly but that didn't last very long before they changed it to what they have now. I don't think it was determental and more than enough time has passed since then that you'd be grasping to 'blame' it for any current conditions that you perceive to exist. The one thing that you should note, using the internet as a tool to grasp hunter success is a pisspoor way to view current conditions. As hunters adapt to the internet age, so do their lies. Plenty of big bucks shot in Region 5 in recent years. They are either not posted on internet forums or they are posted with inaccurate locations. This goes for most big bucks shot in the province. Hell I've seen my own pictures flying around with different locations attached to them. hahaha.

As I've said many times before, hard hunting doesn't mean the end of the world. Just because someone you know had a tough time finding big bucks don't mean that there are no big bucks left. You give way too much credit to hunters and not near enough credit to the bucks. They can and do live right under your nose. I have a high 170 class 4 point that has been coming into my yard to eat bird seed from my wife's bird feeder. He comes every couple nights. His tracks come the same way every time. He knows exactly where to be to not turn on the motion light. I have only ever seen him once and that was this summer at barely first light when he crossed the road in front of me. I've got up numerous times in the middle of the night when the motion light has come on. Never have seen him in my yard. The snowplow driver was laughing when he told me at Christmas that he came by my place one night and that buck was looking though my front window. He is elusive as hell and even in the safety of yards, away from the wolves and lions, he is completely nocturnal.

[GoatGuy]

As I've said many times before, hard hunting doesn't mean the end of the world. Just because someone you know had a tough time finding big bucks don't mean that there are no big bucks left. You give way too much credit to hunters and not near enough credit to the bucks. They can and do live right under your nose. I have a high 170 class 4 point that has been coming into my yard to eat bird seed from my wife's bird feeder. He comes every couple nights. His tracks come the same way every time. He knows exactly where to be to not turn on the motion light. I have only ever seen him once and that was this summer at barely first light when he crossed the road in front of me. I've got up numerous times in the middle of the night when the motion light has come on. Never have seen him in my yard. The snowplow driver was laughing when he told me at Christmas that he came by my place one night and that buck was looking though my front window. He is elusive as hell and even in the safety of yards, away from the wolves and lions, he is completely nocturnal.

High bidder can have his address and location for this "Clearwater monster"........ Husky gets a 20% discount if he wins.

[dana]

I'm quite certain he beds on the Crown above my house. ;) Jelvis will tell ya what road system he thinks it will be on. hahaha.

[jacksondog]

Winter of 96-97 devistated mule deer in the West Kootenays, a 4 point season started the following hunting season and stayed in place for many years. By 2004 I was seeing trophy mulie bucks on a regular basis and harvested what many would consider great deer 5 years in a row, 2 of them scoring in the high 190s(my profile pic is one of these bucks) and the others scored between 165 and 172. I was also passing up and missing:cry: nice bucks during this period. Soon the October any buck opened and soon after that everyone from the province was here in the Kootenays to hunt the open Elk season, the result was a serious decline in trophy mule deer in my opinion. Still hunting the same area and the doe concentration is great but all the bucks doing the breeding are 140 at best, I know there are still some big mulies in the West Koots but finding them is a challenge having gone 3 years without seeing a shooter. This answer is easy for me bring back the 4 point restriction, but keep a season for the youths and seniors.

[GoatGuy]

I'm quite certain he beds on the Crown above my house. ;) Jelvis will tell ya what road system he thinks it will be on. hahaha.

Might even remember the road system IIRC.

[dana]

Jackson
You are telling me 2 years of hunting Any bucks has killed your genetics??? hmmm, how has Region 3 kept producing monsters with the highest harvest rates of any Region??? We've had the same seasons for over 20 years. If you lost you genetics in just 2 years shouldn't Region 3 have lost theirs decades ago????

[dana]

Might even remember the road system IIRC.

I'll give Jelly a handout. Gelena for the oldschool. hahaha

[Sitkaspruce]

Winter of 96-97 devistated mule deer in the West Kootenays, a 4 point season started the following hunting season and stayed in place for many years. By 2004 I was seeing trophy mulie bucks on a regular basis and harvested what many would consider great deer 5 years in a row, 2 of them scoring in the high 190s(my profile pic is one of these bucks) and the others scored between 165 and 172. I was also passing up and missing:cry: nice bucks during this period. Soon the October any buck opened and soon after that everyone from the province was here in the Kootenays to hunt the open Elk season, the result was a serious decline in trophy mule deer in my opinion. Still hunting the same area and the doe concentration is great but all the bucks doing the breeding are 140 at best, I know there are still some big mulies in the West Koots but finding them is a challenge having gone 3 years without seeing a shooter. This answer is easy for me bring back the 4 point restriction, but keep a season for the youths and seniors.

Sorry man, but not everyone, actually 98%, are not trophy hunters and would rather just put meat in the freezer. Your comments are typical NIBY comments from the WK hunters who really have no clue how to manage deer. It's not all about trophy deer, it about making more MD of all age classes so we can keep hunters hunting and have a strong voice with the regulation makers. APR do not make more deer.

Cheers

SS

[jacksondog]

Its been 4 years of any buck and Elk opened up to a General Open season for the first time ever.Unless you hunted here that first year of Open Bull seasn you will not be able to appriciate the amount of hunters who showed up from the coast, Okanogan East Koots etc.. With no exaggeration and any other West Kootenay HBC members will be able to back me on this the amount of hunters that showed up was staggering. The reason this is important is that all these Elk hunters became Mule Deer hunters and being from different regions they were shooting any bucks that showed themselves. A local meat cooler told me that he had checked in 7 mulie spikes in the first 3 days, and of course he was only making reference to spikes. The west Kootenays in the past 4 years has had much more hunting pressure than its ever had and in my opinion this has resulted in a trophy decline. As far as genetics go yes the genetics are still here but hard to see the results if a potential trophy buck does not make it past his spike or 2 point years.

[dana]

News Flash,
Trophy bucks were never spikes in their 1st year of growth. Why is this so hard to comprehend for some?

[ru rancher]

News Flash,
Trophy bucks were never spikes in their 1st year of growth. Why is this so hard to comprehend for some?
how do you know for a 100 percent fact that never one trophie buck was a spike? thats all i want to know theres no way to prove that so dont be so rude about it. how ever logical it may seam doesnt mean it never happens

[dana]

Why would you save all the spikes for the 1 in a million chance that it might someday grow into a trophy buck?? Meanwhile, it is a pretty darn good bet that a yearling 4 will indeed grow into a trophy buck if given a chance yet we think that we should kill them and then complain when we don't see any trophy deer??? It ain't rocket science and yet there are some that still don't get it.

[ru rancher]

Why would you save all the spikes for the 1 in a million chance that it might someday grow into a trophy buck?? Meanwhile, it is a pretty darn good bet that a yearling 4 will indeed grow into a trophy buck if given a chance yet we think that we should kill them and then complain when we don't see any trophy deer??? It ain't rocket science and yet there are some that still don't get it.
hahahaha not argueing with you i agree 100 percent with what you say for point restriction seasons. just saying you dont need to be so rude about it because it may happen there are no facts saying it wont happen lol

[dana]

Ru
I have found sometimes rudeness is the best way to counter utter stupidity. If you don't have tuff skin then don't make stupid comments.;)

[ru rancher]

Ru
I have found sometimes rudeness is the best way to counter utter stupidity. If you don't have tuff skin then don't make stupid comments.;)
haha im sorry dana was just the first comment i read all day shocked me a little at first! but then reality set in and i totally undertsand it wasnt out of place at all! and we all try not to make stupid comments but sometimes it happens to everyone.... lol

[coach]

haha im sorry dana was just the first comment i read all day shocked me a little at first! but then reality set in and i totally undertsand it wasnt out of place at all! and we all try not to make stupid comments but sometimes it happens to everyone.... lol

Wow, Rancher. Are you actually starting to use punctuation? Look at you go, little buddy! :-D

[frenchbar]

haha im sorry dana was just the first comment i read all day shocked me a little at first! but then reality set in and i totally undertsand it wasnt out of place at all! and we all try not to make stupid comments but sometimes it happens to everyone.... lol

HBC needs its own stupid comments forum..be a busy place :)

[ru rancher]

Wow, Rancher. Are you actually starting to use punctuation? Look at you go, little buddy! :-D
consider it a christmas gift. ;) may not always be correct but iol try. also only type with two fingers. so its not easy...

[ru rancher]

HBC needs its own stupid comments forum..be a busy place :)
no what it really should have is a wall that you can copy stupid post and put on the wall! would deffinatly make more people read before they post. myself included!

[dana]

wow, rancher. Are you actually starting to use punctuation? Look at you go, little buddy! :-d

hahaha!!!! :) :)

[frenchbar]

no what it really should have is a wall that you can copy stupid post and put on the wall! would deffinatly make more people read before they post. myself included!
when 1 is uniformed on a subject he is best to ask questions and listen and learn IMO.

[dana]

RU,
There is an easy to use function called 'Preview Post'!

[ru rancher]

obviously you guys dont undertsand what i mean! it would be a place you can look back and see some of the old hillariuouse post that make us laph every time we read them! and what i ment more is do some reasearch before you post.

[frenchbar]

RU,
There is an easy to use function called 'Preview Post'!

weve all been guilty of not using it steve lol

[RiverOtter]

obviously you guys dont undertsand what i mean! it would be a place you can look back and see some of the old hillariuouse post that make us laph every time we read them! and what i ment more is do some reasearch before you post.

Man, you were doing so good there for a couple posts...

Damn near sig line material right there.......:mrgreen:

[ru rancher]

Man, you were doing so good there for a couple posts...

Damn near sig line material right there.......:mrgreen:
when did i say anything stupid in that post at all? point it out highlight it bold anything cant see it

[Sitkaspruce]

when did i say anything stupid in that post at all? point it out highlight it bold anything cant see it

Really????

Kid you need to re-read your posts and learn to spell.....I would bet that most of us type with two fingers, and are not using a keyboard. Hell I am using a stylus and typing one letter at a time....but I am not perfect either....

Just hit preview and correct your errors....it will be easy to read for us older people and we will be easier on you....

But we are going off topic.

Cheers

SS

[dana]

RU,
Not only is there a preview post button, there is an edit post button. You use that when you notice glaring errors after you have already hit the post button.

BTW, I'm just learning to use this IPad, so I am am typing with 1 finger. Quite different than the keyboard on the laptop.

[RiverOtter]

obviously you guys dont undertsand what i mean! it would be a place you can look back and see some of the old hillariuouse post that make us laph every time we read them! and what i ment more is do some reasearch before you post.

For starters..........:mrgreen:

Just funnin' with ya, Ru.....

[OutWest]

If people stopped treating each thread as they do instant messaging, there wouldn't be so much garbage to sift through.

[Husky7mm]

Jackson
You are telling me 2 years of hunting Any bucks has killed your genetics??? hmmm, how has Region 3 kept producing monsters with the highest harvest rates of any Region??? We've had the same seasons for over 20 years. If you lost you genetics in just 2 years shouldn't Region 3 have lost theirs decades ago????

Its not a loss of genetics at all its that they are harvested before they reach that age class. The mobs come for an opportunity at elk and whatever deer they cross that's legal pay the price. You are comparing apples to oranges , region 3 has way more mule deer an 4, its strands to reason its works for reg 3.
Its not that region 5 has a mulie hunting "problem" today and as stated earlier I wouldn't have current first hand knowledge of it anyways, its that its phenominal hunting has been degraded post reg change.

[coach]

What years did R5 have this "phenomenal" hunting, Husky?

[Husky7mm]

Well I already painfully explained it, lol.
On a serious note I still dream about it today. Don't remember the year the regs changed but if I had to guess -+2005

[ru rancher]

so i must say with region 5 also with the regs changed personaly i have saw alot more 4 points there are other factors for my area though that i hunt the most that probably have added to the quality of deer. that being said i do feel that with the apr that trophy class bucks will most likly have less of a chance to make it to the prime age. i do however know that there are still alot of monsters out there they are just smarter then most people will give them credit.
one last thing sorry if i cant spell great never bin good at it and never will but ill try my best for the old fock around here ;)

[RiverOtter]

Start pumping out some periods, commas and the odd capital letter, and we'll gladly give you a pass on spelling..............:twisted:

[GoatGuy]

Well I already painfully explained it, lol.
On a serious note I still dream about it today. Don't remember the year the regs changed but if I had to guess -+2005

When you can't support anything you say when dates, seasons, harvest data, hunter opportunity data, sex ratios, recruitment rates you haven't explained anything. We can however agree, it was painful.

[GoatGuy]

so i must say with region 5 also with the regs changed personaly i have saw alot more 4 points there are other factors for my area though that i hunt the most that probably have added to the quality of deer. that being said i do feel that with the apr that trophy class bucks will most likly have less of a chance to make it to the prime age. i do however know that there are still alot of monsters out there they are just smarter then most people will give them credit.
one last thing sorry if i cant spell great never bin good at it and never will but ill try my best for the old fock around here ;)

If you're going to UBC you better get on the program. You won't make it out alive if you don't.

[frenchbar]

What years did R5 have this "phenomenal" hunting, Husky?

pretty sure it was 1959.....

[frenchbar]

If you're going to UBC you better get on the program. You won't make it out alive if you don't.

bigger question is who wins a spelling B ..ru rancher or hunter47...:) she could be a close battle:wink:

[Rackmastr]

bigger question is who wins a spelling B ..ru rancher or hunter47...:) she could be a close battle:wink:

How did I miss the last 6 pages of this thread???? Haha

Pure comedy gold. :mrgreen:

[frenchbar]

How did I miss the last 6 pages of this thread???? Haha

it gets better with age lol

[bridger]

How did I miss the last 6 pages of this thread???? Haha

Pure comedy gold. :mrgreen:

X2 it started out great lots of good info and discussion, but like most threads it has gone off course

[dana]

When you can't support anything you say when dates, seasons, harvest data, hunter opportunity data, sex ratios, recruitment rates you haven't explained anything. We can however agree, it was painful.

But....but....but....The internet doesn't have the pictures of the big bucks it used to so therefore they are all dead right??? hahaha. The science is right here on HBC. If you were to have a poll question of how many people killed a 200 inch muley in 2013 you would find the vast majority didn't. There is your science GG. The internet doesn't have big bucks anymore.

[hunter1993ap]

But....but....but....The internet doesn't have the pictures of the big bucks it used to so therefore they are all dead right??? hahaha. The science is right here on HBC. If you were to have a poll question of how many people killed a 200 inch muley in 2013 you would find the vast majority didn't. There is your science GG. The internet doesn't have big bucks anymore.
Thank god!!

[ru rancher]

well well well cant give a guy a break on miss spelling the odd word sorry i dont feel like google searching every word i dont know how to spell!!!! sounds lkie a waste of my genus... ;) and dana didnt you say region 3 has had the same regulations for a multitude of years? wouldnt then the same monsters still be coming from that region? also one more point on R 5 the big buck contest this year had the biggest buck scoring 213 i belive and second scoring 174 (shot by my bro) any way i dont have the data from many years of course but atleast thats up from last year so there are some big ones still out there interested to see what happens in the next few years when the reg change is 10 years old...

[squeege]

HBC needs its own stupid comments forum..be a busy place :)

It does, its called the Mule Deer and Antler point restrictions from about page 10 to present..:wink:

[Husky7mm]

Winter of 96-97 devistated mule deer in the West Kootenays, a 4 point season started the following hunting season and stayed in place for many years. By 2004 I was seeing trophy mulie bucks on a regular basis and harvested what many would consider great deer 5 years in a row, 2 of them scoring in the high 190s(my profile pic is one of these bucks) and the others scored between 165 and 172. I was also passing up and missing:cry: nice bucks during this period. Soon the October any buck opened and soon after that everyone from the province was here in the Kootenays to hunt the open Elk season, the result was a serious decline in trophy mule deer in my opinion. Still hunting the same area and the doe concentration is great but all the bucks doing the breeding are 140 at best, I know there are still some big mulies in the West Koots but finding them is a challenge having gone 3 years without seeing a shooter. This answer is easy for me bring back the 4 point restriction, but keep a season for the youths and seniors.

My experience was similar to yours except for actually harvesting the giants, albeit very close at least saw a few, I knew they were around, and others were scoring on them. It was getting slightly better every yr and then the tap was closed. I actually think the decline started a yr or so prior to any buck. I attribute it to very low escapement of legal bucks as the country filled up with hopeful elk hunters attracted by the liberal elk seasons and all the easy info being thrown around on the net.

[Husky7mm]

pretty sure it was 1959.....
Like I mentioned earlier seeing multiple mature bucks per day and or per trip. Glassing hard and turning up decent bucks,hiking and getting into decent bucks every time, every time! Heck I saw 3 giants in different spots all in one day! Good friends and there friends punching tags year after year on really great bucks! Some did not even hunt hard! That's the way it was, certainly nothing to look down your nose at. I still dream about it today!

[Husky7mm]

But....but....but....The internet doesn't have the pictures of the big bucks it used to so therefore they are all dead right??? hahaha. The science is right here on HBC. If you were to have a poll question of how many people killed a 200 inch muley in 2013 you would find the vast majority didn't. There is your science GG. The internet doesn't have big bucks anymore.
That's bull shit and you know it. A quick look on HBC this year shows all kinds of nice bucks that hit the dirt in region 3,(and a bit of 8) this yr and last year and the year before that..... and thats just HBC, never mind those that don't partake, There still other provinces. Lots shot by just average hunters that don't huint hard or often either,so get out of your little crazywater bubble. I wasn't taking about pictures anyway I was taking about a consensus coming out of the regions affected by the regulation changes. ( action and re-action) It comes up very regular nowadays

[jacksondog]

I agree with you Husky, region 4 has never had the mule deer numbers of 3, 5 and 8 to begin with. It was a slaughter here in the WK , in addition to the fact that the WK had never seen the hunting pressure that has come with the GOS on Elk. I understand that the meat hunters are against the 4 point season but there has to be a better compromise than what the current regs offer. Like I said in my original post a senior/youth season is a solution as well as maybe a short any buck season after the Elk season has closed, just to many hunter here in the first 20 days of October. One thing I will add is the wolf numbers are way up and certainly this is impacting the overall mule deer numbers as well.

[dana]

That's bull shit and you know it. A quick look on HBC this year shows all kinds of nice bucks that hit the dirt in region 3,(and a bit of 8) this yr and last year and the year before that..... and thats just HBC, never mind those that don't partake, There still other provinces. Lots shot by just average hunters that don't huint hard or often either,so get out of your little crazywater bubble. I wasn't taking about pictures anyway I was taking about a consensus coming out of the regions affected by the regulation changes. ( action and re-action) It comes up very regular nowadays


You haven't hunted Region 5 in a long time and yet you state it isn't producing big bucks anymore due to the fact you haven't seen any on the internet. You get on me about making comments about Region 4 when I haven't hunted it for years and yet you can make comments about Region 5 when you haven't hunted it for years??? Newsflash, there are still plenty of good hunting in 5. Plenty of big bucks too. People have grown wise to posting pics and locations on the internet. You can't trust any spot you see associated to any buck on the internet. You think there were many from Kamloops because you actually believe the locations. HAHAHA!!! And then there are the bucks that never see the internet. Hell there is a whole big long thread here asking why people aren't posting pics anymore. I totally get why, don't you? Heck, Even though I post up lots of pictures, I don't post them all. I was in on the demise of a big buck this past season and yet I never posted pics of it.

[frenchbar]

i would venture to guess 99% of mule deer bucks shot in BC dont make it onto internet forums ..ive witnessed some asskicker bucks people have shot this past season .

[OutWest]

Geez Frenchie, do you ever get tired of being right all the time?

On another note, it's unfortunate that even in light the science and studies, there are still those out to manage the way others hunt, how they hunt etc. There's 2 paths hunters can choose to go down, one is a positive for wildlife and the other they think will benefit their personal hunting experience. Husky, it's clear which one you're on.

[frenchbar]

Geez Frenchie, do you ever get tired of being
right all the time?

i amaze myself daily...:wink:

[RiverOtter]

Geez Frenchie, do you ever get tired of being
right all the time?

i amaze myself daily...:wink:

Now that's funny right there.......

[RiverOtter]

On another note, it's unfortunate that even in light the science and studies, there are still those out to manage the way others hunt, how they hunt etc. There's 2 paths hunters can choose to go down, one is a positive for wildlife and the other they think will benefit their personal hunting experience. Husky, it's clear which one you're on.

Trouble is, even though science has identified the 2 major requirements to help boost Mule deer and other ungulate populations, both options are tough sells.

Controlled burns don't always stay under control, especially when fire has been surpressed for so long, not to mention timber licence holders aren't gonna be keen on burning up timber and have a lot of financial(Read that Pollitical pull) to oppose it.

A wolf cull, as in aerial gunning and poison, will likely never get off the ground in this day and age, as the majority of the voting population lives in places with absolutely zero clue about BC wilderness.

So, as is human nature, we HAVE to do SOMETHING, so we manage a depleting resource with regulations.

[DawsonCreedmoor]

Hey Jesse, empty your inbox

[OutWest]

Trouble is, even though science has identified the 2 major requirements to help boost Mule deer and other ungulate populations, both options are tough sells.

Controlled burns don't always stay under control, especially when fire has been surpressed for so long, not to mention timber licence holders aren't gonna be keen on burning up timber and have a lot of financial(Read that Pollitical pull) to oppose it.

A wolf cull, as in aerial gunning and poison, will likely never get off the ground in this day and age, as the majority of the voting population lives in places with absolutely zero clue about BC wilderness.

So, as is human nature, we HAVE to do SOMETHING, so we manage a depleting resource with regulations.

Know all about the liability surrounding broadcast/prescribed burns as well as licensees not wanting to see their dollars going up in smoke. Like GG has said, if HBCers spent a tenth of the time they do going in circles bitching about meaningless antler point restrictions as they did getting in touch with their MLA, the hunting community might actually achieve something.

[Husky7mm]

When you can't support anything you say when dates, seasons, harvest data, hunter opportunity data, sex ratios, recruitment rates you haven't explained anything. We can however agree, it was painful.

I know it was painful.
I did give some rough dates and seasons. Harvest info was anecdotal. I could be like others and just cut and paste the info that supports my beliefs and disregard what's in there that doesn't. Here's the the thing , how many of the studies in the past have come up inconclusive, how many are revised or just proved wrong, Ie reducing moose to save caribou?
Faster than habitat enhancement could ever create more game people will be damaging longer seasons and larger bag limits, I will be shocked if "managing" hunters ever stops. I wish I could be more optimistic about it.

[GoatGuy]

I know it was painful.
I did give some rough dates and seasons. Harvest info was anecdotal. I could be like others and just cut and paste the info that supports my beliefs and disregard what's in there that doesn't. Here's the the thing , how many of the studies in the past have come up inconclusive, how many are revised or just proved wrong, Ie reducing moose to save caribou?
Faster than habitat enhancement could ever create more game people will be damaging longer seasons and larger bag limits, I will be shocked if "managing" hunters ever stops. I wish I could be more optimistic about it.

There have been dozens of studies and papers on antler restrictions for mule deer. They all come up with the same conclusion: THEY DON'T MAKE MORE DEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC, Alberta, Washington, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Oregon and on and on and on and on.

Was just talking to one of the guys in the States today who is one of the top mule deer researchers in NA. He's done the research on cougar control, coyote control, antler restrictions and his work is showing the biggest constraint is.......... HABITAT!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny, hunters have the most potential to increase mule deer populations yet are the biggest barrier all at the same time.

You can focus on making more deer or you can focus on making more hunting regulations.

I give.

[Husky7mm]

Geez Frenchie, do you ever get tired of being right all the time?

On another note, it's unfortunate that even in light the science and studies, there are still those out to manage the way others hunt, how they hunt etc. There's 2 paths hunters can choose to go down, one is a positive for wildlife and the other they think will benefit their personal hunting experience. Husky, it's clear which one you're on.

I don't think that's a fair assumption. I am not against an anybuck season. I do believe season timing and restrictions need to be used to produce escapement if the demand is higher than the supply. When you see a buck to doe ratio of 2-100 even if there was error , escapement was next to nil. Sorry I don't drink from the same cool aid as you.

[Husky7mm]

There have been dozens of studies and papers on antler restrictions for mule deer. They all come up with the same conclusion: THEY DON'T MAKE MORE DEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC, Alberta, Washington, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Oregon and on and on and on and on.

Was just talking to one of the guys in the States today who is one of the top mule deer researchers in NA. He's done the research on cougar control, coyote control, antler restrictions and his work is showing the biggest constraint is.......... HABITAT!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny, hunters have the most potential to increase mule deer populations yet are the biggest barrier all at the same time.

You can focus on making more deer or you can focus on making more hunting regulations.

I give.

I believe you, habitat enhancement will make more deer!

[Sitkaspruce]

I believe you, habitat enhancement will make more deer!

But............

Cheers

SS

[wolf]

Well said Goat Guy

cheers see you soon

[dracb]

The following comments are based on my memory and while I may be mistaken on precise numbers the generalities of the comments and the shapes of the arguments are correct.

Actually the license fees, tag fees and LEH fees go back into general revenue. I used to buy every tag available until I learned that fact of life. The amount of revenue from license fees is a drop in the bucket amounting to about $12 million including angling fees. I just totaled up the cost of the hunting license and tags in my wallet and the total is approximately $150. Assuming all +/-100,000 BC resident hunters bought the same value of licenses and tags, license sales would only bring in $15 million in revenue if such revenue was sent directly to Fish and Wildlife budgets. Relatively few BC resident hunters spend that much on BC provincial hunting licenses and tags. It is important to remember that even at our peak resident hunters totaled only +/-170K in the early 1980's. The population of hunters started decreasing when the Government increased the licenses fees suggesting we are in general sensitive to license price increases. In fairness it could also be argued that hunting lost most (+/-80%) of its recruitment in the year when the CORE program was taken out of the school system and privatized.

Historically BC Government has not given resident hunting credit for the economic activity generated by the sport. This was recently estimated at $230 million per annum. I am surprised it was so low, but again it is a relatively small fraction of the economy of the province and perhaps explains at least in part why Government has not committed the resources we would like to see committed to maintain wildlife resources.

Back in 2002 all resource ministries budgets totaled on the order of $1.4 billion but have recently fallen to around $0.625 billion. This at the same time that legislated responsibilities have increased by about 25% and personnel have been decreased by 25% to 30%.

Looking back through time from the mid-1980's the inflation adjusted budget for renewable resources has remained more or less flat when compared to the dramatic growth of the inflation adjusted provincial budget to +/- $9.5 billion. The Devil being in the details the inflation adjusted budget for renewable resources in 2002 was of the order of $350 to$380 million and was more recently +/-$170 million. So while it is true that the bureaucracies managing fish and wildlife resources have been rather badly treated in recent years with regards to budgets, it is also true that previous governments have not been materially more open handed. BC is known to have one of the most underfunded Fish and Wildlife agencies in North America and it has been known as such from the very early days of wildlife management in BC.

Soooo the long and the short of the funding issue is that we are a segment of the population that indulges in a sport that is far less than universally appreciated by the remainder of the population. That population is more and more comprised of persons for which hunting is not part of their culture and of little interest to them. The hunting population is a rather small voting block that will continue to have minimal political clout except in a few rural ridings and contributes only in a peripheral way to the economy of the Province.

Now how does one attack these fundamental issues in order to improve wildlife management in BC?

[bacon_overlord]

This point has been made, but to repeat... the number of bucks regardless of age, antlers, etc, has only a minimal effect on the population. Boys don't make babies, only girls. If you want to increase a population, make sure there are lots of pregnant ladies, and the offspring survive to reproduce.
This is probably best done by not having antler less seasons, ensuring lots of good habitat, and decreasing predation. Go kill wolves and coyotes, and restrict logging.

[wideopenthrottle]

I have always wondered how it could be beneficial to genetics to kill only the largest breeder bucks in September in the high country well ahead of the rut.

The tri-palm requirement for moose has the potential to remove the tri-palms from the breeding stalk.

A couple of examples of the Law of Unintended Consequences manifesting itself.

Mule deer are a little smarter and a little tougher to get at during pre rut so less likely to all get shot I guess

[takla1]

quote ;The tri-palm requirement for moose has the potential to remove the tri-palms from the breeding stalk.

Antler size doesn't always equate to superior genetics .Ive shot and killed many bull moose in 7-49/ before the tri-palm restriction that had tri-palm configuration but were smaller bodyed moose and ive shot/killed some of the largest bodied bulls ive ever seen with just 3-4 point.Ive got one small 3 point rack here {young bull} that tipped the scales at 900 lbs dressed,and many that were over 800 lbs that were young with smaller antlers.

takla

[Kill-da-wabbit]

Hi guys. New to the forum, not hunting. What about a rotating hunting ban on certain regions to allow the stock to mature, but of course allow predator hunting? I have seen more than few 6 point mulies where hunting is not allowed, but very few in the wild. It seems the deer in the wild don't have a chance to mature even where numbers are plenty. Rotating would allow younger bucks in MUs to be harvested for food and allow bucks to mature in others. But that would put more pressure on the open MUs less oportunity on the closed MUs. I guess there is no easy answer.

[Humptrees]

The 4 point mule deer season in my opinion is affecting the genes in the deer. After years of hunting the same area I am seeing far less 4 points and am now seeing very large two and three point bucks. This is not increasing the amount of large antlered bucks but actually doing the opposite. The only really effective way of managing is to implement 100% limited entry based on what they consider to be a sustainable harvest.

[Weatherby Fan]

There have been dozens of studies and papers on antler restrictions for mule deer. They all come up with the same conclusion: THEY DON'T MAKE MORE DEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC, Alberta, Washington, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Oregon and on and on and on and on.

Was just talking to one of the guys in the States today who is one of the top mule deer researchers in NA. He's done the research on cougar control, coyote control, antler restrictions and his work is showing the biggest constraint is.......... HABITAT!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny, hunters have the most potential to increase mule deer populations yet are the biggest barrier all at the same time.

You can focus on making more deer or you can focus on making more hunting regulations.

I give.


Just give this this a reread and should answer your concerns on Antler restriction.

[Jordan f.]

There have been dozens of studies and papers on antler restrictions for mule deer. They all come up with the same conclusion: THEY DON'T MAKE MORE DEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC, Alberta, Washington, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Oregon and on and on and on and on.

Was just talking to one of the guys in the States today who is one of the top mule deer researchers in NA. He's done the research on cougar control, coyote control, antler restrictions and his work is showing the biggest constraint is.......... HABITAT!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny, hunters have the most potential to increase mule deer populations yet are the biggest barrier all at the same time.

You can focus on making more deer or you can focus on making more hunting regulations.

I give.

It blows my mind how little importance some hunters think habitat is.

We can restrict all the hunting, kill all the preds, but if the deer have nowhere to live...well, it's pretty obvious.

Habitat. Habitat. Habitat.

[wideopenthrottle]

It blows my mind how little importance some hunters think habitat is.

We can restrict all the hunting, kill all the preds, but if the deer have nowhere to live...well, it's pretty obvious.

Habitat. Habitat. Habitat.


especially wintering grounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Weatherby Fan]

Trouble is we do have a few issues compounding the problem, not just habitat loss, predators of course, access- hardly anywhere that you can’t drive to, poaching.....regardless of who’s doing it is ongoing.

[Wild one]

Trouble is we do have a few issues compounding the problem, not just habitat loss, predators of course, access- hardly anywhere that you can’t drive to, poaching.....regardless of who’s doing it is ongoing.

I would agree with you and only add that the major factors change throughout BC

[Weatherby Fan]

I would agree with you and only add that the major factors change throughout BC

Exactly each region has its differences for sure.

[limit time]

This is a constant merry go round on this site. Read the links people!!!

This is as classic as the “ban handgun” crowd....(also on this site). Old Fudds know best ya know ;)