Bow vs crossbow vs rifle

[Beachcomber]

Noticed this piece in the latest edition of the Economist. Not like them to write about hunting but this is an interesting article (written by someone who knows nothing about hunting). It touches on the recent thread here on technology and hunting but also trends in hunting generally and some of the challenges we as hunters face...

http://www.economist.com/news/christmas-specials/21591747-can-bows-and-arrows-save-hunting-america-dark-wood

[emerson]

The learning curve with a crossbow is very short, but it's range is not much farther than
the modern compound. Crossbows allow novice bow wielders to hunt as accurately
as long time recurve/compound hunters. Restricting cross bows allows long time
archers to feel superior to newbies, but allowing crossbows doesn't mean an easy 100yd
rifle shot can be equalled by an archer.

[leftfield]

The learning curve with a crossbow is very short, but it's range is not much farther than
the modern compound. Crossbows allow novice bow wielders to hunt as accurately
as long time recurve/compound hunters. Restricting cross bows allows long time
archers to feel superior to newbies, but allowing crossbows doesn't mean an easy 100yd
rifle shot can be equalled by an archer.

Well said.

[bugler]

Generally that article sums up how I feel about crossbows in bow season and the evolution of the hunt in the last 10 years or so. I have my reservations about both, but, as somebody once said, you can't get in the way of progress....

[Gateholio]

Let's face it- anyone that condones the use of a modern compound bow in archery seasons should also condone the crossbow. Modern compounds shorten the learning curve almost as much as the crossbow.

[bugler]

From my experience with teaching people to shoot them I beg to differ Gate. While the modern compound has made it so anybody can learn to use one with bit of effort it is still considerably more difficult to achieve tight groups with than the crossbow. But my "reservations" have less to do with the weapon itself and more to do with the type of "bowhunter" it tends to attract. My buddy with the archery shop tells me that he can't keep up to the crossbow demand in the last week before bow season. Kinda fits the "instant gratification" society we live in.

[TheProvider]

***yawn** do we really need to argue traditional bows vs compound bows vs crossbows

[dblung]

Let's face it- anyone that condones the use of a modern compound bow in archery seasons should also condone the crossbow. Modern compounds shorten the learning curve almost as much as the crossbow.

Wow!!!!!! Had to read this twice. At least take that second part back!!! Redo?

[Gateholio]

From my experience with teaching people to shoot them I beg to differ Gate. While the modern compound has made it so anybody can learn to use one with bit of effort it is still considerably more difficult to achieve tight groups with than the crossbow. But my "reservations" have less to do with the weapon itself and more to do with the type of "bowhunter" it tends to attract. My buddy with the archery shop tells me that he can't keep up to the crossbow demand in the last week before bow season. Kinda fits the "instant gratification" society we live in.

Maybe that's a good thing. If crossbows weren't' allowed they would be grabbing compounds a week before the season starts! :)

Anyway, it's true the crossbow is easier to learn to shoot, but I think back to the hours and days and weeks that I spent trying to master my longbow and recurve, compared to picking up a compound and putting 3 arrows in the kill zone at 30 yards on the first try. Then PG66 brings his new bow out and starts dropping arrows into the target at 80 and 90 yards....Well, it's hard to argue that compound technology is fine but crossbows are "cheating" :)

[nelsonob1]

Personally, when it comes to big game bow hunting, I consider the shooting straight part one of the easier elements of the day and I couldn't care less whether my fellow hunters were using a bow or crossbow. If you are capable of getting within 30-40 yards of an elk and capable of making a sound shot then throw a spear for all i care. I can hit a 6 inch diameter all day long with bow or crossbow but have not managed to take an elk in three seasons of trying really hard. at this stage I would drop out of a tree and hit it on the head with a hammer if i thought this would improve my chances.

[Fred1]

Personally, when it comes to big game bow hunting, I consider the shooting straight part one of the easier elements of the day and I couldn't care less whether my fellow hunters were using a bow or crossbow. If you are capable of getting within 30-40 yards of an elk and capable of making a sound shot then throw a spear for all i care. I can hit a 6 inch diameter all day long with bow or crossbow but have not managed to take an elk in three seasons of trying really hard. at this stage I would drop out of a tree and hit it on the head with a hammer if i thought this would improve my chances.

Good point! I can pound my target all day long with my bow... Been 5 years now I think, still haven't put an arrow into anything edible... I have a cross bow now - for no other reason than its cool!! As said it is far simpler to deliver the arrow on target. However I still have to be close enough. I do feel more confident making a better shot, more often, with the crossbow. Tech will always be advancing. So if you want to be a purist/minimalist, be one! If you want to fish with bamboo fly rods, do it! If you want to shoot deer with the old flint lock smoke pole, giver! The hunt itself is different to each of us. Take what you want from it and enjoy it!

Successful bear hunting with a spear??!! BRAG AWAY!!

[Sofa King]

whatever one chooses to use to put 'em on the ground is fine by me.
it's true though, many a hunter has gotten a crossbow simply to take advantage of the extended season, and chose the cross because it's much easier to master.
hell they have a scope, stock, trigger, they couldn't make them any more like a rifle.
but I see nothing wrong with them being in the bow-season.
it's bullshit I think, any talk of them not being included.
as silly as the flyfishermen who think they are superior because they are "flyyyyyyfisherman".(said in an arrogant, snooty, british drawwwwwl)

[Fred1]

That would be the fly fisherman wearing the wool sweater, canvas waders, bamboo pole, wicker creel and ratty old hat. I know him! He always seems to feel far superior to the rest of us although he catches less fish... Although his $2000 rod is pretty cool!

[aggiehunter]

theres range and then theres effective range...that is one of the main issues with xbow boys that crossover from the rifle...hell I can hit a deer at 80 yards with my new xbow and scope...but the question is...is that effective...and No Gatehouse crossbows are not cheating!

[IronNoggin]

... However most people forget to realize how much lighter a cross bow bolt is compared to a full length arrow...

Don't rightly know where you got that impression from?
When I ran a compound bow, I shot 400 grain (total with head) arrows. Shoulder gave up after far too many injuries, and now that prevents me from using the compound any more. Thus the switch to the crossbow.

The arrows I run in the Matrix 380 are Custom jobs, and weigh 395 grains (with head). Most of the fellows I know that shoot crossbows (a fair handful) also run arrows in the 400 grain class. The Kinetic Energy for those I shoot at just a hint over 365 fps is close to 120 foot-pounds. Sufficient enough to zip right through the largest game I'll ever think of using it on, and well over the rating for the largest critters out there.

Modern crossbows are inherently accurate, and many find them easier in comparison to get decent with. To get "Good" still takes a lot of practice, and often a fair amount of tinkering. At this point I can consistently shoot tea-cup sized groups right out to 100 yards, and those tighten right up as the range decreases.

In my opinion, you still MUST get within a reasonable range to kill consistently / effectively with an arrow. My self-imposed limit (on a RELAXED and unaware animal) is 50 yards, but of course I greatly prefer to be well inside of that. Far too much can happen during the time it takes the arrow to get to target at even 50 yards, let alone anything further. I've always believed we owe it to our prey to afford them the quickest and most painless death we possibly can. Sticking within reasonable limits does help with that, and reduces chances of wounding and / or loss.

Not going to entertain the debate regarding various equipment types except to note that I obviously hunt with a crossbow. And I still have to get right up close and personal to make that work... :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[Xenomorph]

I think it's a little unfair to do a vs, as long as regulations allow it it's pretty much whatever floats your boat. Keep in mind that one might frown upon a guy using a crossbow in the bow season, well, I'd take take any day over the yahoo that tags along his 10yo child with the rifle, right in the bow season and one BANG makes all my possible targets flee for dear life.

Bottom line is you will never be able to please everyone, but as long as common sense and mutual respect rule the behavior of every one hunter you can hunt your meat with a stone for what I care, as long as you humanely put it down.

Personally I've navigated towards 80# setups because it offers a flatter trajectory and then because it will ensure my arrows have a wicked KE: on paper my .250 spined full length Deep Impacts with 125/150 grain tips should have around 100# KE. Soon as weather permits and my arrows are here I'll put them through the chrono and check if the math is right.

Respect yourselves and fellow hunters (I know for some that's a strange concept), respect mother nature and take it as it is: a gift. Enjoy it while you still can and try to pass as many good values to your children and peers. That's, from my humble point of view, what hunting should all be about.

[Fisher-Dude]

I think it's a little unfair to do a vs, as long as regulations allow it it's pretty much whatever floats your boat. Keep in mind that one might frown upon a guy using a crossbow in the bow season, well, I'd take take any day over the yahoo that tags along his 10yo child with the rifle, right in the bow season and one BANG makes all my possible targets flee for dear life.



So a 10 year old kid shoots your deer. How terrible for you.

[Midland]

It is so funny how the archery argument always starts. I think it is great crossbows are an option for hunters as "archery" equipment. Some people are not able to use a compound efficiently (disabled, injuried, etc), this tool is a great alternative that allows one to be "included" in the extended season.

I could careless what people use, nor would I compare how much more I need to practice compared to the crossbow guy ( just stay out of my spots!).

Anything harvested, whatever weapon it is, is an accomplishment. :) to each his own on which weapon they choose...

[Xenomorph]

So a 10 year old kid shoots your deer. How terrible for you.

I think you misunderstood: I was talking about the yahoo that takes his 10yo kid and shoots the animal for him.

[300H&H]

For me, my choice to purchase a re-curve crossbow was simple. I could not draw back a compound bow (more than a few times) because of a damaged rotator cuff.
And it allowed me to hunt 10 days sooner and later in to December.

Now I will throw this back at ALL gun hunters.

If you think compound or crossbows are not right...then center fire long arms should be banned and only black powder be allowed.

It is a slippery slope we walk when we choose to say one is superior over another.

[Superdeuce]

To each their own, and great to have options especially for those who physically can't use a compound, or are simply more comfortable and confident with a crossbow. I think the biggest advantage of the crossbow over the compound is the minimizing of motion. The biggest challenge with the compound is having to pick the right time to draw the compound un-detected, and often times having to hold at full draw for what feels like forever for him to take that one more step. Of course this adds to the challenge and the thrill I think. Either way, whatever floats your boat... they are all legal so enjoy

[Gateholio]

For me, my choice to purchase a re-curve crossbow was simple. I could not draw back a compound bow (more than a few times) because of a damaged rotator cuff.
And it allowed me to hunt 10 days sooner and later in to December.

Now I will throw this back at ALL gun hunters.

If you think compound or crossbows are not right...then center fire long arms should be banned and only black powder be allowed.

It is a slippery slope we walk when we choose to say one is superior over another.

Virtually no gun hunters are opposed to crossbow use. The opposition almost always comes from elitist bow hunters.

[Xenomorph]

Virtually no gun hunters are opposed to crossbow use. The opposition almost always comes from elitist bow hunters.

I agree. I think it comes to each person's approach to hunting, but at the same time those self-righteous should mind their own business if the animal is properly harvested and doesn't end showing up in parts with arrow decorations in their rear quarters. Who cares what one uses, if the actual hunter will be responsible enough not to take the shot if s/he's not confident about it.

All men in my family have rifles, I'm the only one that archery grew on and it's a personal choice. I love the silence, the stalking, the "personal" feeling you get while stalking your animal.

At the same time, I have rifles and shotguns, so if I'm hunting with family, the bow stays home. I really dislike this "vs" discussions all over the place, it all boils down to responsible animal harvesting, as long as regulations allow it, who cares what one uses vs the vast majority. Someone was mentioning a spear :), why not, if you're man enough to dump the animal with a spear your drinks are on me when we meet.

[Diggle]

Isn't it illegal to harvest deer with a spear/knife/sword?

[hunter1993ap]

i'm surprised that the most talked about issue from that article is hunting with a crossbow vs trad bow. I think there was a bigger point to the story. people are getting caught up in the hype of all the new technology, they are missing the point of why we hunt, and the respect we have for the animals we hunt. does the technology we posses give an unfair advantage?

[Weatherby Fan]

I've been shooting a Weatherby cartridge for over 25 years now.......that's a long time to have the advantage !

[Singleshotneeded]

Who cares about the method a guy uses to deliver a sharp stick into a critter? It's all short range stuff and challenging... What I'd like to see is for the archery season to be re-named "primitive weapons season" and you can use a bow, crossbow, or traditional side lock muzzle loader with iron sights...flintlock or percussion.

[Xenomorph]

Isn't it illegal to harvest deer with a spear/knife/sword?

I think it is in BC, not sure, I was using it as a figure of speech. Kind of sick and tired of the antagonistic debate of "this vs that" when the point of hunting is conservation first, and getting your meat on the table as humanely as possible second. Who cares the tools one is using as long as regulations allow it.

[Gateholio]

Spears are legal. So is a knife but hardly practical.

[nelsonob1]

I am going to use a spear this coming elk season. A spear fired out of my 338 Lapua.

[aggiehunter]

Gatehouse...should look back and look at al the "elitist bowhunter" comments...then review them...and then re-post them for all of us elitist's to view...

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse...should look back and look at al the "elitist bowhunter" comments...then review them...and then re-post them for all of us elitist's to view...

Why don't you go ahead and do that? Go back through the years and pick out all the times bow hunters have put down crossbows and crossbow hunters, and suggested that crossbows shouldn't be allowed in bow seasons.

By far, the biggest critics of crossbows are bowhunters, not gun hunters. We both know that.

[aggiehunter]

And of course we both know that you spout off about how all hunters should stick together and I'm sure if you wanted to you could look back years ago and quote people who had a hardon for xbows....well it's time to grow up...I figure a guy should always try something even after he might have badmouthed it (barring heroin) and I have killed two nice bucks with a xbow...but for some strange reason I keep gravitating back to my recurve..it's like a curse...it's like the elitist flyrod I use..it just keeps calling me..and calling me......

[Midland]

Spears are legal. So is a knife but hardly practical.

Where does it say this is legal?

[Gateholio]

And of course we both know that you spout off about how all hunters should stick together and I'm sure if you wanted to you could look back years ago and quote people who had a hardon for xbows....well it's time to grow up...I figure a guy should always try something even after he might have badmouthed it (barring heroin) and I have killed two nice bucks with a xbow...but for some strange reason I keep gravitating back to my recurve..it's like a curse...it's like the elitist flyrod I use..it just keeps calling me..and calling me......

Reccomending that hunters stick together isn't "spouting off" it's mandatory. Which is why it's bad to see bowhunters slamming crossbows. The longbow hunter and crossbow hunter have more in common than they have differences.

[newhunterette]

So now that I finally am able after 30 minutes of trying to post here... I forgot most of what I read and then wanted to say other than:Bow hunting for me..... I started with a recurve .... Enjoyed my recurve and still own my recurve.... Belonged to the TBBC. Unfortunately never had a chance to harvest an animal with my recurve.... And really miss pulling my recurve...... Never went to a compound because of the same medical issues that took away my ability to pull my recurve.I was gifted with my crossbow. Ever so greatful at the prospect of hunting in bow seasons again. Learning to use my crossbow with the same confidence in myself as I had with my recurve and my rifle before giving thought at all to go into the bush to harvest an animal. Last season was my first bow season with my crossbow.... No I never had opportunity to shoot at an animal but just knowing I could was fabulous.Having a disability and not knowing from one day to the next if you will be able to do the same things you did yesterday, today is very hard ... So for me still being able to participate in bow seasons (using my crossbow) is a gift for me because I may not have many more hunting seasons to be part of.... I take everyday I have a good day and cherish it......Have your opinions against or for crossbows in bow seasons, call using a crossbow cheating, say its an easier choice of tool ..... It's a free world and freedom of choice.... Just remember not everyone is able bodied and perfect (some of us need a little help once in awhile) in order to do things others take for granted Im done....Ali

[Xenomorph]

I finally had the time to read the entire article and then all your guys' comments. Albeit all the discussion about this versus that, there's one essential message to be taken out of the whole argument: hunting as Teddy Roosevelt imagined it, was another measure to build a "man", to harden them in time of peace for those time they might be needed, build one's personality and solidify their ethics.

It is profound and humbling when you think that a man was looking at hunting as another way of building the country of the free offering a "democratic approach" to hunting and ensuring a conservation effort for the generations to come.

Most of you here are probably 2nd, 3rd generation born on these lands and you have no idea how it is in Europe. It's truly restrictive and elitist and no, conservation isn't very much a part of the discussion: corruption and money, trophy taking and all that crap is the norm. I wasn't against hunting growing up, I was just not in love with it, took part in culling of wild boars or brown bears when needed, but it always felt as a necessity, not as a mean to build one's character.

From my point of view, no matter what you use, if you as a hunter are guided by the love of the land, respect for the animals you harvest for your freezer, then what type of weapon you're using is irrelevant as long as regulations allow it. Some people - including myself at the moment - will abide by the "fair chase" a little more than others and yes, one day when I'll feel confident enough to shoot a Mongolian just as well as my compound I'll probably hang up my bows and start flinging sticks and getting closer to nature. But not for a minute would that give me or anyone else the right to frown upon what another person is using, or to judge them for their choices.

[broadhead67]

Bang on,
I remember when the stick bow hunters (yes I'm one ) bitched and pissed and moaned about the wheel bow guys getting to hunt during the "primitive" weapons seasons and the wheel bow guys yelling for peace and telling anyone that would listen "its all archery.lets stick together rather than fight amongst ourselves".Then I got to see those same wheel bow men bitch piss and moan about the crossbows.... its ridiculously embarrassing .Gatehouse nailed it.lets stick together ,hunters are under attack from all sides.Lets not make it from inside as well.


Reccomending that hunters stick together isn't "spouting off" it's mandatory. Which is why it's bad to see bowhunters slamming crossbows. The longbow hunter and crossbow hunter have more in common than they have differences.

[aggiehunter]

..stick together where it counts...

[Gateholio]

Where does it say this is legal?

Where does it say it is not legal, is the real question

[biggyun68]

I am all for all hunters sticking together:
To me archery hunting is the method of energy and type of projectile you are using: String and long pointed stick is archery: whether you use a Long Bow, Short Bow, re-curve, composite, cross bow or catapult - it is archery: If you are using a controlled explosion to launch your missile it is firearms:
What we do to get to the point where we can use the chosen tool and what we do after the kill is hunting...

[NorfolkBoy]

I am all for all hunters sticking together:
To me archery hunting is the method of energy and type of projectile you are using: String and long pointed stick is archery: whether you use a Long Bow, Short Bow, re-curve, composite, cross bow or catapult - it is archery: If you are using a controlled explosion to launch your missile it is firearms:
What we do to get to the point where we can use the chosen tool and what we do after the kill is hunting...

I'd define the difference as being in weather there is a lock and trigger mechanism. How easy is the potential energy to store and does it need the movement of a finger, or the contortion of the whole body to release. If I were in charge, Archery season for all bows that need to be drawn just before loosing an arrow, muzzle loader and crossbow seasons for primitive weapons with triggers, and a modern rifle season for the lads with the guns.

But, where I live, bowhunting is completely illegal, so I'd be very happy if the UK had an archery season, with or without crossbows. I get the point about hunters sticking together.


They prompt sniffs from hardline “Trad Guys”, who like to debate the merits of centuries-old longbow designs and knap their own flint arrowheads.
That's me I guess.

[Onesock]

What about rifle hunters slammin bowhunters??????????????????

[Gateholio]

I'd define the difference as being in weather there is a lock and trigger mechanism. How easy is the potential energy to store and does it need the movement of a finger, or the contortion of the whole body to release. If I were in charge, Archery season for all bows that need to be drawn just before loosing an arrow, muzzle loader and crossbow seasons for primitive weapons with triggers, and a modern rifle season for the lads with the guns.

But, where I live, bowhunting is completely illegal, so I'd be very happy if the UK had an archery season, with or without crossbows. I get the point about hunters sticking together.


That's me I guess.

Why no bow hunting?

[brian]

Why no bow hunting?

location = Cambridge England... land of silly rules.


I'd define the difference as being in weather there is a lock and trigger mechanism. How easy is the potential energy to store and does it need the movement of a finger, or the contortion of the whole body to release. If I were in charge, Archery season for all bows that need to be drawn just before loosing an arrow, muzzle loader and crossbow seasons for primitive weapons with triggers, and a modern rifle season for the lads with the guns.

Aren't you splitting hairs talking about locks, releases, and form? This obviously matters to a bow purist but means little when it comes to practical hunting concerns. All of the bows have roughly equivalent effective hunting range and they all kill through the same means (blood loss delivered by a blade). They are statistically similar from both a public safety stand point and in terms of difficulty of animal harvest. So why would you talk about restricting hunter opportunity when there is no additional safety concern and no additional conservation concern? Is it because you only want to see other people carrying the same kind of stick you happen to carry while out hunting? That seems a little silly to me.

[Walksalot]

If proficiency testing was to become mandatory in order to hunt with archery tackle crossbows would be delivered to archery shops by the truck load.

[J_T]

If proficiency testing was to become mandatory in order to hunt with archery tackle crossbows would be delivered to archery shops by the truck load. And the reality is, the proficiency should be a measure of 'intelligence'. Not an accurate weapon, but an accurate mind. One that understands archery tackle, how it kills and one that knows when not to let an arrow go.

[NorfolkBoy]

location = Cambridge England... land of silly rules.
Indeed. Bow's aren't included in the list of approved means of taking animals. Originally not included over fears of poaching, any attempt to introduce it would almost certainly raise a storm from the bunny huggers.




Aren't you splitting hairs talking about locks, releases, and form? This obviously matters to a bow purist but means little when it comes to practical hunting concerns. All of the bows have roughly equivalent effective hunting range and they all kill through the same means (blood loss delivered by a blade). They are statistically similar from both a public safety stand point and in terms of difficulty of animal harvest. So why would you talk about restricting hunter opportunity when there is no additional safety concern and no additional conservation concern? Is it because you only want to see other people carrying the same kind of stick you happen to carry while out hunting? That seems a little silly to me.

I think you could justifiably call it splitting hairs, but I also think the difference between crossbows and bows is more than effective hunting range or killing method. The act of having to draw the bow after having spotted an animal is a much larger movement than any crossbow requires. Drawing without being spotted is part of the challenge of bowhunting, and thus, I think it's not unreasonable to differentiate hunting seasons on this basis.

I guess it makes more difference to me as I observe my deer by working out where they will be, and either hiding up a tree or in cover or a brush hide and so drawing is the major motion for me that will tell the deer I'm there, for those engaging in a spot and stalk, while drawing will still be more difficult than aiming a crossbow, I can see those being more convergent as tools.

[brian]

The act of having to draw the bow after having spotted an animal is a much larger movement than any crossbow requires. Drawing without being spotted is part of the challenge of bowhunting, and thus, I think it's not unreasonable to differentiate hunting seasons on this basis.

Of course there are big differences in how you shoot and hunt with different bows. Hell there are big difference between English war bows, Mongolian horse bows, and a tribal pygmy bows which are all very different from a fully decked out compound. It is strange to pick on one single aspect and say that is the essence of bow hunting (while disregarding all the similarities) and then advocate for hunting restrictions based on this manufactured basis.

Archery only seasons are a great way to get hunters interested in bow hunting and archery only areas are a great way to allow for hunting opportunity in areas where public safety is a concern. Crossbows are easier to learn especially for hunters with a firearms background. So you are advocating to take away what could be seen as a great "gateway archery tool" that gets more hunters interested in bow hunting because you don't have to draw it on game? I don't see the logic of this position. I don't know if this is exactly the appropriate saying but it sounds like a very "penny wise but pound foolish" proposition to make. Personally I prefer to advocate for hunting regulations based on firm science and stats with conservation concerns as their primary goal and not based on some persons whim and fancy about what is and isn't true hunting. This is true no matter the species or what tool a hunter chooses to hunt with.

[Gateholio]

[QUOTE=Walksalot;1484480]If proficiency testing was to become mandatory in order to hunt with archery tackle crossbows would be delivered to archery shops by the truck load.[/QUOTE

I guess that could be the first step to completely eliminating all the archery seasons. Not a bad plan if that is your goal.

[Walksalot]

[QUOTE=Walksalot;1484480]If proficiency testing was to become mandatory in order to hunt with archery tackle crossbows would be delivered to archery shops by the truck load.[/QUOTE

I guess that could be the first step to completely eliminating all the archery seasons. Not a bad plan if that is your goal.

Eliminating all the archery seasons is not my goal, my goal is to eliminate this holier than thou bullshit that seems to always be floating around. People, self professed archers, who point fingers at others for nothing more than the archery tackle they choose. The reason I mention proficiency testing is if these holier than thou archers were to have to prove their competence with their chosen archery tackle they might have to step off their soap box and re-evaluate their position on archery tackle and the use there of. I have been involved in archery for thirty years or so and have seen enough of this finger pointing to say "ENOUGH". Do not impose your values on others who choose a weapon deemed to be legal to use in archery seasons. An archer is far better to use a type of archery tackle he/she can shoot accurately, if for nothing else than to bag an animal with as little pain and suffering to the animal as possible.

[NorfolkBoy]

Of course there are big differences in how you shoot and hunt with different bows. Hell there are big difference between English war bows, Mongolian horse bows, and a tribal pygmy bows which are all very different from a fully decked out compound. It is strange to pick on one single aspect and say that is the essence of bow hunting (while disregarding all the similarities) and then advocate for hunting restrictions based on this manufactured basis.

Archery only seasons are a great way to get hunters interested in bow hunting and archery only areas are a great way to allow for hunting opportunity in areas where public safety is a concern. Crossbows are easier to learn especially for hunters with a firearms background. So you are advocating to take away what could be seen as a great "gateway archery tool" that gets more hunters interested in bow hunting because you don't have to draw it on game? I don't see the logic of this position. I don't know if this is exactly the appropriate saying but it sounds like a very "penny wise but pound foolish" proposition to make. Personally I prefer to advocate for hunting regulations based on firm science and stats with conservation concerns as their primary goal and not based on some persons whim and fancy about what is and isn't true hunting. This is true no matter the species or what tool a hunter chooses to hunt with.

There is a lot to be said for this, and perhaps it is an inherited bias from my usual online hunting peers. I would also like to think of myself as a science advocate, and I certainly would wish to share a hunting season with crossbows in the UK, simply because of the way the UK works, we don't have any weapon control seasons, just on and off seasons for taking the game that you own (if it's on your property), if it's legal to take game with, it's legal any time it's legal to take game.

Are there any good precedents or examples we can examine that say how many people take up crossbows, are there any issues or benefits from this, does it result in more archers?

[greybark]

Each of us with our weapon of choice is responsible to honestly acknowledge their limitations and practice it . Generally criticising weapon choices of others makes no sence and creats no worth while dialog . Look after your own and they will look after theirs .
Unfortunatley the trend of extreme long range shooting with rifles and bows as glorified on Wild TV create false impressions with their selective edits tends to take the hunt out of the hunt and one wonders whats on the cutting room floor .
Cheers

[aggiehunter]

Greyabark..I have no doubt what's on the cutting room floor...rifle or bow tv show.

[Walksalot]

Each of us with our weapon of choice is responsible to honestly acknowledge their limitations and practice it . Generally criticising weapon choices of others makes no sence and creats no worth while dialog . Look after your own and they will look after theirs .
Unfortunatley the trend of extreme long range shooting with rifles and bows as glorified on Wild TV create false impressions with their selective edits tends to take the hunt out of the hunt and one wonders whats on the cutting room floor .
Cheers

Friends are surprised that I do not subscribe to the Wild TV channel and I explain the reason why and it is simply that I do not subscribe to a channel which sensationalizes high risk to wound shots.

[brian]

Are there any good precedents or examples we can examine that say how many people take up crossbows, are there any issues or benefits from this, does it result in more archers?

The only evidence I have to support this claim is anecdotal, I don't know if any group or organization has bothered to track crossbow to bow crossover amongst hunters. More importantly I have seen studies that tracked hunter accident rates that show little difference between crossbows and bows. Both have very low accident rates. I have also seen harvest statistics and they were all within expected limits despite crossbows being included in archery only seasons. Here in BC we do not discriminate between bows and suffer no ill because of it. Alberta on the other hand for some reason restricts crossbows in their archery seasons.

[timbermilton]

with majority of guys, i think it's a matter of pride and what they think is fair. i stand on the side of being proficient at filling the freezer with what means you have, regardless of the method.

i once was challenged by some hunting buddies, to show me that my "primitive" longbow doesn't compare to "modern" wheelies and xbows. we met up at the local 3d range, 3 with xbows, 2 with wheelies, and there i was with my yew english longbow and back quiver full of WOOD arrows. they laughed and set out the rules; no points crap, kill shots only, regardless of angle, oh and i had to shoot from the same stake as them. but they would let me shoot last at each but, to give me time to rest between shots. lol. well after 20 targets, i was the only one to have 20 kill shots ranging from 10 yards to 50+ yards. they all but 1 claimed i cheated. cheated? how? how could i possibly cheat?.... perhaps in ones eye i did, i shoot everyday. thousands of arrows a month, i make my own wood arrow shafts with a shaft jig, this allows me to match my spine and weight exactly in every arrow for every one of my "primitive" bows. if any of them practiced as much as i do, they would have easily gotten more kill shots. i explained that to the lot of them, and then challenged them to a rematch and I'd use my ATLATL and darts. the declined, thankfully, i don't practice as much with it, but have been able to take dozens of rabbits with it.

i don't look less on them because of their method of putting food on the table, i will admit to trying to convert a good many of them to shoot "primitive" succeeded a few times so far. it's all preference. my wife has recurves, but hunts with a rifle. i still allow her to eat crackers in bed.

i find it ridiculous that people still argue over what should be allowed and what shouldn't. by definition of methods of hunting in the regs, there is no law against a man, or woman, useing a high powered rifle taking a bear at 1200yds, nor can i find a regulation stating that you can't jump out of a tree with a 100# rock onto the head of a bear to fill the freezer........which method is the best, or proper, or right? as long as your good at the method and practice alot. either scenario has a fair amount of risk. but both will get the job done. both will give you "bragging" rights. both methods would require serious confidence in your ability.

when i competed against the xbow and wheelie guys, we were all even halfway through, but by the 10th or 12th target, they were losing confidence, getting frustrated, annoyed, and i kept my composure. they wanted to beat me, i just had fun shooting. pride will get the better of you.

i see these types of threads on alot of forums, it's just like the ol' chevy vs. dodge vs. ford. come on, everyone knows CHEVY wins hands down!:mrgreen::twisted: