Hunters say deer disappearing in southeast B.C.

[delboybc]

Globe and mail article I thought you would be interested in.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/hunters-say-deer-disappearing-in-southeast-bc/article15818766/


Seems that person believes quad hunters play a big role in deer population decline.

As most people in the general population of BC are not coming to the hunting sites I thought some of huntingbc members would be interested in posting some replies to this article.

Del

[358mag]

Fire up the popcorn machine this will be good .

[adriaticum]

Didn't they have a deer cull in Grand Forks a few years back due to tremendous number of deer?
Something smells fishy with the story.
Or the deer have moved in with them.

[sthdslayer]

He's a Guide Outfitter who is upset residents are able to access areas he used to be able to do with horses

[coach]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease...

[emerson]

He's a Guide Outfitter who is upset residents are able to access areas he used to be able to do with horses

Hmmmm.....

[Weatherby Fan]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease...

This is quite obvious with that proposal put forward in areas 8&4 !!!

[BRvalley]

“And what about the quad bike?” he asked. “We just can’t carry on this way with the quad bike. Number one, you can very quickly get off it and fire at your target, whether it’s a grouse or a mule or white-tailed deer. And with no conservation officers out there, you can rest assured most of these guns are loaded. You don’t even have to get off. Just pick it up out of your gun rack and whack, you are shooting.”
That’s how people are hunting these days?

“Oh, it’s just exploded,” he said of hunting on quads. “Over the last five years it’s been a steep increase. We are reaching a point where guile and cunning and hard work is no longer a part of the hunting season. It’s just riding all day on your quad bike.”



and what about his horses...replace 'quad bike' with 'horses' and it fits.....it sounds like a GO upset that residents have easy access to his honey holes

are the strictly resident hunters (aka not outfitter related) reporting the same decline?

know nothing about the area and do agree with some of what he says on the doe season, but based on my personal run in's with an outfitter, they tend to care ONLY about their business/personal gains...

[coach]

This is quite obvious with that proposal put forward in areas 8&4 !!!

For sure. The worst part is, the region 8 bio seems to be drinking his cool-aid.. :evil:

[Everett]

Brandow is a special form of toilet scum he has been complaining of no deer for years he mainly wants resident hunting curtailed in favour of his clients.

[coach]

Brandow is a special form of toilet scum he has been complaining of no deer for years he mainly wants resident hunting curtailed in favour of his clients.

Apparently he doesn't even sell deer hunts. Sounds like he just wants an end to resident hunting. He's definitely a threat to every one of us!

[pescado]

The quad bike deal is a bit wacked. Not seeing as many in the alpine as he used to......probably. In the kootenays I wonder if there will ever be as strong of a migration as there used to be. Hunters aren't the problem the predators are the problem.

[kebes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CJCTwg7Scg

Of course the liberalized seasons are the issue Barry.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Brandow is a special form of toilet scum he has been complaining of no deer for years he mainly wants resident hunting curtailed in favour of his clients.

Winnner winner turkey dinner.
He's been complaining for decades....thru the highs and lows of deer populations.

SSS

[coach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CJCTwg7Scg

Of course the liberalized seasons are the issue Barry.

He said we need to "manage wildlife instead of hunters" and then spoke only about the need to change seasons through regulation. Laughable .. But still a threat to all of us and a threat to the deer populations as well.

[coach]

I added my comments to the video that was posted.

[Caribou_lou]

Two words. Resident priority!

[odie1830]

Ya, im sure it was great back in the 70's and 80' , but just like all areas , it is getting easier and easier to access areas due to roads being pushed through for logging ect. I do agree with more motor vehicle restrictions for some areas . I also think that if wolfes are present in the area, this will impact the deer population as well. I personally feel they are pissed off because they are not having the success once had! . Is he willing to shorten his guiding season as well?

[rocksteady]

I watched the video of "Marty Thomas" who admits he is 55, then tells how he used to ride the school bus from Christina to G.F. and see 4 or 500 deer on the Gilpin Range, now there is maybe 40 or 50....

News flash Marty.... KNAPWEED came into the Gilpin with a vengance back in the early 80's, basically destroying the grasslands (aka deer food) and now it is just slowly coming back. There is not enough food on that range for 500 critters...

[Mikey Rafiki]

I've yet to kill anything from my quad-bike... I must be using it wrong! Every kill I've had since I got it has been a result of using those 2 leggy things attached to my torso.

I would be fine with more motor vehicle restrictions in some areas as there is more accessible land than ever before. That's mostly because I enjoy a quiet hunt rather than the affect it will have on overall population.

Mike

[coach]

I added my comments to the video that was posted.

And the first response I received was the hunters are indeed the problem. :evil: I responded again - would be nice if a few more HBC'ers would chime in.

[Gateholio]

The term quad bike is hilarious. Especially when you consider what quad and bi represent. :)

[coach]

My response:
Brandow states that "Victoria needs to manage wildlife instead of hunters", yet his only suggestion is more management of hunters. The key issues facing wildlife in BC: environment, predators, funding. Hunting is not the problem. The agenda of this guide outfitter is painfully clear - keep residents out of the back country so he can sell more hunts to foreigners. 

Response back:

Yes hunting is the problem The season is far too long. There's depletion of deer across B.C. If the deer population continues to be destroyed there won't be hunting for anyone.


His only agenda is to see the population return. 


My follow up:

If you believe the hunting season is the cause of the mule deer decline then you're part of the problem - not the solution. Want to make a difference? Write your MLA. Tell them that money from hunting and fishing licenses needs to go back into the resource. Inform them that BC needs an increased focus on effective predator management. Tell them that fire suppression is adversely affecting wildlife. Demand that logging companies completely deactivate roads when they are finished logging - as much to make it difficult for predators as well as limiting access to hunters. Join your local fish and game club. Become a member of the BCWF. Volunteer your time to help with habitat enhancement projects.


Hunters have two choices - we can continue to fight with each other over a diminishing resource or we can choose to do something to make more deer. 



Gotta go now.. Off to check a trail camera that will prove plenty of bucks made it through the slaughter..:-D

[goatdancer]

[QUOTE=rocksteady;1429876]I watched the video of "Marty Thomas" who admits he is 55, then tells how he used to ride the school bus from Christina to G.F. and see 4 or 500 deer on the Gilpin Range, now there is maybe 40 or 50....

QUOTE]

He's full of it. I lived in GF at that time and never saw that many deer there. Maybe he was a wide-eyed kid and his memory isn't so good........

[Brez]

Well, I tried to stay out of this and not buy into the "popcorn" threads but here goes. It amazes me the difference in the "hunter" of today and those of yesteryear ('70s and '80s - my era). Please don't be offended, I'm not speaking of all of today's hunters, just the ones who are have been raised to expect instant gratification with minimal effort. My friends and I embraced the prospect of hard efforts, backpacking and bush-whacking in the pursuit of larger than average bucks that were more plentiful in the back-country because of the limited access. Now, it seems, less and less hunters are willing to put in that effort and would rather have a fraction of the chance of a large buck (or ram, or bull, or what have you) as long as they can drive or ride there.
Same applies for cross-bows in the archery seasons (this should get interesting). We (my friends and myself, and the others of the time 30 years ago) got into bow-hunting to add challenge to the sport - to make bagging a 2-point something special that was no challenge with firearms any more. The cross-bow is to bow-hunting what atv's are to backpacking.
Now, combine the two with a late season on prime wintering grounds and that is what I was witness to this past week in the Okanagan. Three of us went to bow-hunt mule deer there and we were crushed by what we saw. After hiking from camp each day, up on the ridges we'd see these guys ripping around, with cross-bows, on ATV's, hitting all the ridges and going wherever they could in pursuit of that monster spike (because that's all that's left) to fill their tags and proclaim themselves successful bows-hunters. On our second day, the three of us split up and by the end of the day, we'd tallied 180 mule deer of which only one was a buck, and a spike at that.
Another observation about those that I will call lazy people - they are not hunters in my eyes - we found and followed up on two blood trails left by these individuals and did not find one boot print in them, indicating a total lack of respect and responsibility on their part. Luckily, after hours of tracking, it appeared that these deer were not wounded terribly as the bleeding seemed to have stopped in both cases, even after having bedded several times. Disgusted and fed up, we left early. It's no wonder that there are those of us who want to limit motorized access and liberal buck seasons.
Our observations, over the past few years are that the populations, in some areas, are far too low, and the buck-to-doe ratios in most areas are terrible.
I applaud anyone who supports limiting the seasons and access to help the deer, elk, sheep, or what have you to rebound and re-establish healthy and vibrant herds again. All hunters (and I emphasize the term "hunters") will reap the rewards and have more memorable experiences.
Ok, everyone, have at her!!

[Lionhill]

Anything out of the mouth of Mark Hume should be taken with a big bag of salt. He wants guns banned, no more hunting and everyone wearing brown shirts. And worst of all, he cherry picks his facts to support his views. He's the sun's resident wind-bag.

LH

[Gateholio]

180 does and only one buck? Sounds like there isn't any shortage of deer in the area.

[Gateholio]

Well, I tried to stay out of this and not buy into the "popcorn" threads but here goes. It amazes me the difference in the "hunter" of today and those of yesteryear ('70s and '80s - my era). Please don't be offended, I'm not speaking of all of today's hunters, just the ones who are have been raised to expect instant gratification with minimal effort. My friends and I embraced the prospect of hard efforts, backpacking and bush-whacking in the pursuit of larger than average bucks that were more plentiful in the back-country because of the limited access. Now, it seems, less and less hunters are willing to put in that effort and would rather have a fraction of the chance of a large buck (or ram, or bull, or what have you) as long as they can drive or ride there.
Same applies for cross-bows in the archery seasons (this should get interesting). We (my friends and myself, and the others of the time 30 years ago) got into bow-hunting to add challenge to the sport - to make bagging a 2-point something special that was no challenge with firearms any more. The cross-bow is to bow-hunting what atv's are to backpacking.
Now, combine the two with a late season on prime wintering grounds and that is what I was witness to this past week in the Okanagan. Three of us went to bow-hunt mule deer there and we were crushed by what we saw. After hiking from camp each day, up on the ridges we'd see these guys ripping around, with cross-bows, on ATV's, hitting all the ridges and going wherever they could in pursuit of that monster spike (because that's all that's left) to fill their tags and proclaim themselves successful bows-hunters. On our second day, the three of us split up and by the end of the day, we'd tallied 180 mule deer of which only one was a buck, and a spike at that.
Another observation about those that I will call lazy people - they are not hunters in my eyes - we found and followed up on two blood trails left by these individuals and did not find one boot print in them, indicating a total lack of respect and responsibility on their part. Luckily, after hours of tracking, it appeared that these deer were not wounded terribly as the bleeding seemed to have stopped in both cases, even after having bedded several times. Disgusted and fed up, we left early. It's no wonder that there are those of us who want to limit motorized access and liberal buck seasons.
Our observations, over the past few years are that the populations, in some areas, are far too low, and the buck-to-doe ratios in most areas are terrible.
I applaud anyone who supports limiting the seasons and access to help the deer, elk, sheep, or what have you to rebound and re-establish healthy and vibrant herds again. All hunters (and I emphasize the term "hunters") will reap the rewards and have more memorable experiences.
Ok, everyone, have at her!!

Clearly, the solution is to shut down the bow season.

[Brez]

Ah, the voices of reason and common sense are starting to percolate. Surely you can do better than that!

[Gateholio]

Weren't you complaining about the detrimental effects of a late bow season in prime wintering ground?

[Wild one]

Weren't you complaining about the detrimental effects of a late bow season in prime wintering ground?

I would take more so as complaining about poor ethics of many hunters these days.

But I think everyone on this forum knows you love bow seasons

[GoatGuy]

Well, I tried to stay out of this and not buy into the "popcorn" threads but here goes. It amazes me the difference in the "hunter" of today and those of yesteryear ('70s and '80s - my era). Please don't be offended, I'm not speaking of all of today's hunters, just the ones who are have been raised to expect instant gratification with minimal effort. My friends and I embraced the prospect of hard efforts, backpacking and bush-whacking in the pursuit of larger than average bucks that were more plentiful in the back-country because of the limited access. Now, it seems, less and less hunters are willing to put in that effort and would rather have a fraction of the chance of a large buck (or ram, or bull, or what have you) as long as they can drive or ride there.
Same applies for cross-bows in the archery seasons (this should get interesting). We (my friends and myself, and the others of the time 30 years ago) got into bow-hunting to add challenge to the sport - to make bagging a 2-point something special that was no challenge with firearms any more. The cross-bow is to bow-hunting what atv's are to backpacking.
Now, combine the two with a late season on prime wintering grounds and that is what I was witness to this past week in the Okanagan. Three of us went to bow-hunt mule deer there and we were crushed by what we saw. After hiking from camp each day, up on the ridges we'd see these guys ripping around, with cross-bows, on ATV's, hitting all the ridges and going wherever they could in pursuit of that monster spike (because that's all that's left) to fill their tags and proclaim themselves successful bows-hunters. On our second day, the three of us split up and by the end of the day, we'd tallied 180 mule deer of which only one was a buck, and a spike at that.
Another observation about those that I will call lazy people - they are not hunters in my eyes - we found and followed up on two blood trails left by these individuals and did not find one boot print in them, indicating a total lack of respect and responsibility on their part. Luckily, after hours of tracking, it appeared that these deer were not wounded terribly as the bleeding seemed to have stopped in both cases, even after having bedded several times. Disgusted and fed up, we left early. It's no wonder that there are those of us who want to limit motorized access and liberal buck seasons.
Our observations, over the past few years are that the populations, in some areas, are far too low, and the buck-to-doe ratios in most areas are terrible.
I applaud anyone who supports limiting the seasons and access to help the deer, elk, sheep, or what have you to rebound and re-establish healthy and vibrant herds again. All hunters (and I emphasize the term "hunters") will reap the rewards and have more memorable experiences.
Ok, everyone, have at her!!

This is certainly the approach that Barry Sr. has taken for decades - you seem to be in step with his thoughts.

He talks about the old days and often brings up 1968. In 1968, there was a mule deer and white-tailed buck season ( no 4 pts reg) that were 100 and 110 days respectively. There was also a 21 day mule deer antlerless and a 50 day white-tailed antlerless GOS - yes antlerless GOS for mule deer does. IN 1968 you were allowed 3 deer, 2 of which could be mule deer, or 3 antlerless white-tailed deer. Back then I believe there were 6,000 hunters annually in the Boundary country - the harvest was about 5,000 deer (40% of which were antlerless). Back then the biologists stated habitat was the constraint, and that the winter range was being pounded by an over-abundance of deer, particularly competition from exploding white-tailed deer populations (of course, I'm sure the hunters did not support that). Habitat change and forest succession were also identified up and coming problems - but hunters obviously didn't listen.

Those that are up on the history know that area was burned extensively through the 20s and 30s forest fires, and also from mining exploration - there was also increasing settlement and resulting agriculture which undoubtedly helped wt's take-off and facilitate their move westward. That habitat allowed deer populations to explode.

Anyways, as the habitat was pounded the deer population declined, and as today, hunters back then thought the problem was the regulations. They probably made jabs at the 'current hunters' versus the 'real hunters', but of course these were self-interested jabs which focused on the 'real hunters' not the resource. Why would they listen to a wildlife biologist?

Today (45 years later) we have virtually no antlerless mule deer harvest, a 50 day mule deer buck season (20 of which is 4 pt), a 20 day antlerless wt and 80 day GOS. And hunters say there are no mule deer, and now no wt deer. We've gone out and done flights which show mule deer sex ratios above the provincial minimum and well above any kind of conservation related threshold.

You've reduced the hunting regulations drastically, cut the hunter numbers in half, cut the harvest back to nothing for mule deer, and you're still going to try to sell me 'the hunting regulations will save deer'. And you want antler restrictions, despite the fact science tells us they won't help. And biologists still tell us, 45 years later habitat is the constraint on the population BUT WE'RE NOT LISTENING.

I'll save the rant about 'real hunters' - just suffice it to say, the proof is in the pudding. Changing the regulations has not helped these deer populations. They have declined as the current biologists will tell you and the biologists 45 years ago predicted due to habitat destruction, alienation and forest succession. And as deer populations declined hunters blamed it on other hunters, and changed the regulations instead of listening to biologists and worrying about making more deer. What do you have to show for it? Declining deer populations. To think this is the fault of the current generation of hunters is completely unfounded and to be honest history shows us this is an inherited problem - we can trace it right back to 1968.

History should teach us something about managing the resource, and it has, but we have to learn from it. Reflect back on your history and what has occured to mule deer populations across much of the southern half of the province. How is it that we sustained decades of antlerless mule deer GOS, when today apparently can't even have an any buck GOS? How is it that despite no antlerless harvest deer populations still decline? How is it that with lower harvest and fewer hunters deer populations decline? How is it that biologists tell us habitat is the problem, yet we still complain about regulations? None of this makes sense from my perspective. How can you try to rationalize hunting regulations when you've handed the next generation ('unreal hunters?') a resource that's a mere shadow of what it was 45 years ago and tell them it's their fault? I think the trick is to look at what's been done, realize it doesn't work, and get on with making more deer - that should be the focus.

So, the suggestion is: get off your regulation rant, quit pointing the finger at other hunters, how they hunt, worrying about yourself, and get onboard with making more deer and start worrying about the resource. After 45 years of history I think it's time to start doing some learning.

[GoatGuy]

Weren't you complaining about the detrimental effects of a late bow season in prime wintering ground?

Unfortunately people often confuse conservation with their own personal beliefs, particularly when they're frustrated.

[Jelvis]

People in their sixties who hunted way back when, were only young then and did mega hunting by hiking around, but now the desire to walk all over and up and down is fading.
The thing is they quit hiking when hunting now because their old farts Haha.
You won't see many deer road hunting compared to back woods walking.
And this is more of the problem than way less deer.
Jel .. Park it and hike or you won't see a whole lot anywhere.

[Whonnock Boy]

GG, you never seem to cease being the voice of reason. Thanks for 'banging your drum', and helping us all become informed about the real picture. I don't understand how some don't get it, but it sure makes sense to me. Kudos!

[adriaticum]

I would take more so as complaining about poor ethics of many hunters these days.




This Saturday I started my walk at dawn in snow and walked my trail looking for deer tracks in fresh snow.
After about an hour a couple of guys with a truck came up on the road.
They called me up for a chat and said they were turning back since I was already there.

What poor hunter ethics you're talking about?

[GoatGuy]

GG, you never seem to cease being the voice of reason. Thanks for 'banging your drum', and helping us all become informed about the real picture. I don't understand how some don't get it, but it sure makes sense to me. Kudos!

Thing is, you have these people who are passionate. Folks like Barry Sr., who have been at it for a long, long time. If you could harness that energy and get it devoted to the resource we'd all be way better off and we might even achieve something. The 'glitch' is people in BC have always focused on hunting regulations, managing a declining resource, instead of looking at how to increase the resource.

I think that's where we need to go. Glad you 'get it'.

[Jelvis]

Doesn't matter what anybody thinks, you go with what yah got, and what our Ministry says, period. If it's open it's open if it's closed it's closed, simple.
-- The bio's know better than we do anyways so go with what they give us.
Get yer butt out of the office, living room and out of the 4by.
You'll see lots of wildlife if you go back where they live.
Jel .. come to Kammy we got more deer here than the sixties .. deer everywhere.
If you hunt deer in Kamloops and don't get a shot at one, you won't see a deer in any region.
Hunting is a learned sport, you need to know how and where to go.
Some hunters have asked me, what color are the mule deer up here?
Hunters have to start somewhere and get out or off of the vehicles and go in a couple hundred yards or so off a road.

[Wild one]

This Saturday I started my walk at dawn in snow and walked my trail looking for deer tracks in fresh snow.
After about an hour a couple of guys with a truck came up on the road.
They called me up for a chat and said they were turning back since I was already there.

What poor hunter ethics you're talking about?


Lots of good guys out their but there is a growing number of slobs as well

I am far from agreeing with the long post complaining about how people hunt. To me if you are legal, safe, respect other hunters, do everything you can to make a clean kill and respect the animals you hunt I could careless if you never get out of your truck.

[Gateholio]

I would take more so as complaining about poor ethics of many hunters these days.

But I think everyone on this forum knows you love bow seasons

Sounds more like he was complaining about hunters using different hunting methods than the one he uses and approves of.

[Everett]

Sounds more like he was complaining about hunters using different hunting methods than the one he uses and approves of.

Just another Fudd Gatehouse guys like that are more danger to our hunting privilege's then the bunny huggers.

[Gateholio]

Considering how many stories I've heard from "old timers" that describe unethical, illegal and downright dangerous behavior while hunting "in the good ol'days" I'm pretty hesitant to point a finger at this new breed of disrespectful hunters I keep hearing about. The difference may be the internet and how stories of poor behavior travel so fast now, when it used to be "This one time, at hunt camp....."

Lots of stories of shooting animals out of truck windows, shooting 5 moose and running back to town to get your buddies to come tag them, Uncle Pete who always started the morning with half a jug of whiskey in his coffee and kept a few flasks on his person all day, running down animals with vehicles, shooting stuff out of season and sneaking it back home, the giant deer shot in the headlights on the last day of a trip, dodging game wardens etc. I've heard plenty of these stories, and I think we all have. Some are kinda funny in a "he sure was a rascal" sort of way, but some are cruel and some are just blatant disregard for conservation.

[TexasWalker]

Brandow is a special form of toilet scum he has been complaining of no deer for years he mainly wants resident hunting curtailed in favour of his clients.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjO_zQ4Szlk

[Everett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjO_zQ4Szlk

Yup that's him I feel bad about comparing him to Toilet Scum its not fair to the Toilet Scum.

[Gateholio]

How about we not refer to people as toilet scum at all, please.

[hunterdon]

Thing is, you have these people who are passionate. Folks like Barry Sr., who have been at it for a long, long time. If you could harness that energy and get it devoted to the resource we'd all be way better off and we might even achieve something. The 'glitch' is people in BC have always focused on hunting regulations, managing a declining resource, instead of looking at how to increase the resource.

I think that's where we need to go. Glad you 'get it'.

You make an excellent point GG. Not to gloat or anything. On my little patch (25 acres) I've planted thousands of trees (mixed species) including oak(acorns), chestnut trees, and annual food plots over the years and continue to do so. All with the goal of improving habitat for wildlife, particularly deer.
My land is in the lower reaches of the valley, like most private land, and was prime wintering habitat for deer for ever. I know that it will not make a dramatic improvement in wildlife habitat in the big picture, but at least it is my way of giving back to nature and making the land a little better for wildlife than when I got it. I encourage all who may have land to look at what they can do to improve their land for wildlife as well. Even those who do not hunt.
Oh, I also limit my taking of deer to just one animal per year on my land. All together, these things seem to be working as I have witnessed a gradual increase of deer over the years on my land, particularly bucks.

[*bcgold*]

He is most likely one of the STAKEHOLDER that want four point season only up there.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Sounds more like he was complaining about hunters using different hunting methods than the one he uses and approves of.

I agree. There is always progress in technology. Anyways, I see just as many hunters from that "era"out quadding and road hunting as I do the young folk, maybe even more. Those no good old timers ;)

[limit time]

Yup that's him I feel bad about comparing him to Toilet Scum its not fair to the Toilet Scum.
HA Ha......

[Sofa King]

Lots of good guys out their but there is a growing number of slobs as well

I am far from agreeing with the long post complaining about how people hunt. To me if you are legal, safe, respect other hunters, do everything you can to make a clean kill and respect the animals you hunt I could careless if you never get out of your truck.

well, if you kill an animal yet never got out of your truck, then that strikes all those other points.

[Sofa King]

180 does and only one buck? Sounds like there isn't any shortage of deer in the area.

lucky buck.

[000buck]

My 2 cents........ I'll accept restrictions on them there "quad bikes" when it becomes unlawful to hunt wildlife unless you left home on foot. Friggin hypocrites.

[Jagermeister]

Being one of those guys that hunted the south Okanagan and Boundary country in that 60's epoch, I can attest to the accuracy of GoatGuys post.

Brandow is driven by his own agenda. Negate resident hunter opportunity for increased guided hunter opportunity.

I believe that degradation of habitat and the increase in access have been cause of mule deer decline.

It appears that some species of knapweed are on the decline, as much as 78% so maybe the winter ranges will recover somewhat. It might be practical to do a Bluebunch wheatgrass enhancement where practical to expedite the recovery.
The rancers will have to be engaged too as overgrazing is detrimental to "good" plant growth.
Eventaully, some roads will deteriorate and legislation enacted that will change the way hunters and others will access the backcountry.

In 1968, I hunted white tail deer on Anarchist Mtn and along Hwy 3 corridor back to Rock Creek. Never saw a w/t at Conkle Lake nor were there any in the Okanagan Valley. I hunted mule deer east of Penticton and above Vaseux Lake and the South of Twin Lakes, no white tail there at that time

[Ltbullken]

Four weekends in a row I saw bucks and does all over the place. WTF?!

[boxhitch]

All hunters should know the best ways to recover from an attack like Brandows , and exercise it .

[hunter1947]

There are hunters that hunt back country and then again there are road hunter wonder if this person was a road hunter ???.

[hunter1947]

People in their sixties who hunted way back when, were only young then and did mega hunting by hiking around, but now the desire to walk all over and up and down is fading.
The thing is they quit hiking when hunting now because their old farts Haha.
You won't see many deer road hunting compared to back woods walking.
And this is more of the problem than way less deer.
Jel .. Park it and hike or you won't see a whole lot anywhere.


Yes Jel you are right with your post ,, I myself get to a spot with my quad then it hitting the mountains on foot and yes I am an old I keep in shape shed hunting etc that's why I can still clime up them mountains..

[hunter1947]

Doesn't matter what anybody thinks, you go with what yah got, and what our Ministry says, period. If it's open it's open if it's closed it's closed, simple.
-- The bio's know better than we do anyways so go with what they give us.
Get yer butt out of the office, living room and out of the 4by.
You'll see lots of wildlife if you go back where they live.
Jel .. come to Kammy we got more deer here than the sixties .. deer everywhere.
If you hunt deer in Kamloops and don't get a shot at one, you won't see a deer in any region.
Hunting is a learned sport, you need to know how and where to go.
Some hunters have asked me, what color are the mule deer up here?
Hunters have to start somewhere and get out or off of the vehicles and go in a couple hundred yards or so off a road.

X2 I agree you are making some knowledgeable posts Jel good on you..

[Walksalot]

As was said before, if a person hunts off of horseback he/she is a purist. If a person uses an atv he/she is a lazy, unethical hunter. When I see an atv parked at the end of skid trails and the hunters are off in the bush I can't help relate to that person. I find it very amusing how attitudes toward an atv changes when knees and hips get worn out. Now in my sixties I look back when I was in my prime and packed elk from the top of Okanagan Mountain. It is small wonder I am waiting to get my knee replaced. Don't find fault with a person who is using an atv for transportation until you have walked a few miles in his/her shoes. If a person, in good health chooses to hunt from an atv what's the problem? There are hunters who do not feel comfortable walking through the woods. The fear of getting lost can be a very intimidating feeling. Are we going to ban these people from hunting? With the gas prices what they are it is totally understandable to look for a cheaper mode of transport.
I find it amusing when I see attitudes toward crossbows change when a shoulder injury renders a hunter unable to draw a traditional or compound bow. I find it sad when I see traditional and compound shooters bad mouth crossbow shooters at 3D shoots when both the traditional and compound shooters have horrendous issues with accuracy and yet these guys are reminiscing about their bow hunting adventures.
In the final analysis it will be from in fighting which will bring about the ruination of our hunting privileges.

[davet]

I would love to hunt on horseback !!! unfortunately I can not keep it in my townhouse.

[Lionhill]

Biggest herd of mule deer I have ever witnessed was just above Greenwood, while hunting turkeys in the spring season 3 years ago. There was over 200 standing in an open field, can't say how many were bucks, but there was a LOT of deer.

Well said Walksalot.

LH

[adriaticum]

I would love to hunt on horseback !!! unfortunately I can not keep it in my townhouse.

I don't think there is a law against that :mrgreen:

[coach]

Youth hunting is actually the biggest problem: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xIU7vL61PvA

[coach]

Wait... No, it's the new hunters. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-RRAz4LzHxI

[IronNoggin]

...The cross-bow is to bow-hunting what atv's are to backpacking...

Now there's a load of self-serving bullshit! :wink:


... I find it amusing when I see attitudes toward crossbows change when a shoulder injury renders a hunter unable to draw a traditional or compound bow. I find it sad when I see traditional and compound shooters bad mouth crossbow shooters at 3D shoots when both the traditional and compound shooters have horrendous issues with accuracy and yet these guys are reminiscing about their bow hunting adventures.
In the final analysis it will be from in fighting which will bring about the ruination of our hunting privileges.

BINGO Walksalot! Rather well said! http://bigshotsbc.ca/images/smilies/Pozitive.gif

I am one of those you mention that simply cannot use my compound bow any longer due to far too many shoulder injuries, and of course the rigors of a rich outdoors lifestyle finally starting to catch up to me. My Partners and I practice more with the crossbows now than I ever remember doing with the compounds, and it very much shows in the achievements in accuracy we have subsequently developed. And although we practice successfully out to ranges far in excess of those considered ethical for hunting purposes, none I know would ever shoot at game much beyond those commonly employed by most compound shooters.

We tend to hike and walk a LOT further than most hunters, wearing out boots is a common theme. And most of our crew are incredibly selective, passing up multitudes of shots (most seasons) in search of The One that will satisfy our own personal inner desires to harvest.

All of our Crew are excellent shots, well practiced, and trackers with bountiful experience. As anyone who is experienced with taking animals with any kind of bow can attest, there are often times that latter aspect (tracking) becomes your foremost tool, even with a very well placed shot.

In short, we hunt Ethically, as Hard or Harder than any other Hunter does, are extremely well practiced with our tools of choice, and Well Understand the Limitations of those same tools when out there in the bush.

Divisive statements such as the one quoted above from "Brez" are particularity nauseating to me. Not only slurring any who choose to employ other methods than they themselves do, but insinuating those that do are somehow "Inferior", "Lazy" or into it not for the "Challenge" is more than a little Rude IMHO. And obvious (at least to me) more than a little Self Serving in nature.

I STRONGLY agree with Walksalot's take on the matter. Such Divisive Tactics (Infighting if you will) is one of the single greatest threats working against us as Hunters. I fervently Hope that those who push their own little Agendas will someday wake up and realize that fact before it is too late...

Nog

[coach]

Oh wait.. No, it's rut hunting (MD are closed during that time) and youths shooting three species of deer per year from ages 10-17. Even if he meant three deer instead of species, the limit is actually two...:confused:

He also mentioned the number of hunters is declining - contrary to what his cohorts are claiming.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DB2gXSAUnig

[d6dan]

If a person uses an atv he/she is a lazy, unethical hunter.

So what about us disabled road hunters?. I guess I'm "Unethical" to you then eh?. Good thing your not in a wheelchair.
You made my day.:wink:

[hare_assassin]

So what about us disabled road hunters?. I guess I'm "Unethical" to you then eh?. Good thing your not in a wheelchair.
You made my day.:wink:

If you had read the rest of his post, you would have realized that he was being sarcastic (stating the opposite of what he believed for dramatic impact).

[d6dan]

If you had read the rest of his post, you would have realized that he was being sarcastic (stating the opposite of what he believed for dramatic impact).

Yup, your right!. I focused too much on the Laziness part. Sorry.

[coach]

Oh wait.. No, it's rut hunting (MD are closed during that time) and youths shooting three species of deer per year from ages 10-17. Even if he meant three deer instead of species, the limit is actually two...:confused:

He also mentioned the number of hunters is declining - contrary to what his cohorts are claiming.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DB2gXSAUnig

i added my thoughts to the comments on this video. I encourage my fellow HBC'ers to do the same.

[coach]

Wait... No, it's the new hunters. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-RRAz4LzHxI

I added comments to this one too.

[d6dan]

i added my thoughts to the comments on this video. I encourage my fellow HBC'ers to do the same.


If I'm not mistaken, Brown Ck is just north of 10 mile bridge on the Granby River. He sounds like he's a buddy to B Brando Sr ?. He fails to mention the loss of habitat, lots of logging roads and a healthy wolf population that are creating a bigger part of the problem.

[coach]

If I'm not mistaken, Brown Ck is just north of 10 mile bridge on the Granby River. He sounds like he's a buddy to B Brando Sr ?. He fails to mention the loss of habitat, lots of logging roads and a healthy wolf population that are creating a bigger part of the problem.

Yes, Brandow has organized a group of "concerned" hunters and had them put together YouTube videos to press their agenda. As GG stated earlier in this thread, imagine if these guys dedicated the same amount of effort into doing something that would actually make a difference..

[Walksalot]

Yup, your right!. I focused too much on the Laziness part. Sorry.

Apology accepted, no offence taken.

[d6dan]

Apology accepted, no offence taken.

No worries Walksalot. I wish I could walk. My trophy room would have to be expanded..:-D

[coach]

No worries Walksalot. I wish I could walk. My trophy room would have to be expanded..:-D

Glad that's sorted out. :-D Now, how about commenting on the YouTube videos..

[d6dan]

Yes, Brandow has organized a group of "concerned" hunters and had them put together YouTube videos to press their agenda. As GG stated earlier in this thread, imagine if these guys dedicated the same amount of effort into doing something that would actually make a difference..

I hear you. I used to work for the outfitter who sold out to Brando. Back then we hunting by horseback way out in nowhere. Always had good success and always helps local hunters. Less roads, no wolves and tons of game with liberal seasons.

On another note, Rocksteady commented on what Marty Thomas used to see from a school bus and said the napweed is the problem with winter habitat between GF and Christina lake. That's never changed since the early 1970's. That part of the road used to be one the worst sections of road for vehicle/deer accidents in BC. The highways Deptartment at the time used to have a dump pit dug into one of there gravel pits at Stubs Ck. My dad shot his first whitetail in GF in 1970. Before then I can't remember ever seeing a WT around the valley. I shot a spiker this year in GF. Lots of valley deer around so inbred they almost could pass for Sitka blacktails.

[coach]

Youth hunting is actually the biggest problem: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xIU7vL61PvA

My comments have been added to this one too..

[eric]

Sounds like the same old Bull Shit from the GO..wants all the country for himself,and to hell with the resident hunter.
Mister GO..,go phuck your self

[d6dan]

I added comments to this one too.

I posted on that video.

[coach]

Good on, you, D6dan. :-D

[d6dan]

Good on, you, D6dan. :-D

Thanks Coach. Brando has one agenda and that's only to benefit himself. I heard he want's a 4 point only season on WT's and he's already getting a nice piece of the sheep hunt. What's next? :?

[coach]

None of these hikers are seeing deer either:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZQ7wx1pm-U&feature=c4-feed-u

[HarryToolips]

Your right GoatGuy, so what do we do to start making habitat better?? We know the 2nd best thing for deer and ungulate forage is logging, forest fires being number one of course, but how do we get the logging companies to start de-activating more roads?? And are controlled burns in winter range feasible or will the public freak out? And how do we get the government to start puttin the money from hunting and fishing into hunting and fishing? Stupid question but is it easy to e-mail these people??

[coach]

Start by joining a club, Harry. Oceola, Peachland or Kelowna - all have projects you can be involved with.

[HarryToolips]

Start by joining a club, Harry. Oceola, Peachland or Kelowna - all have projects you can be involved with.
Am already involved with Peachland..missed the last few meetings though due to hunting season and family etc..

[coach]

Am already involved with Peachland..missed the last few meetings though due to hunting season and family etc..

Your club is a good one. Ask around about their Bald Range project.

[HarryToolips]

Your club is a good one. Ask around about their Bald Range project.
Will do I'm going to try to be at the meeting next week thanks buddy..

[coach]

The videos on YouTube are never ending. I've commented on a number of them but it's an uphill battle. :evil: These people are a great threat to hunting. We need to focus on scientific management initiatives. Further regulation will not make more deer.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-lR_vOD9D8

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FJzKBQe7LN0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJTrv5RtmM

[*bcgold*]

On page 11 of the draft md management plan, are these the same group that wants 4 pt. only and no youth any buck season? What kind of rod and gun club that does not want to promote youth hunting? Is that not the future hunters.... The youth!

[hunter1947]

I have to have a say on what I read on one post on this thread ,,, I Look at it this way we all use trucks or other to get from A to B if I am wrong tell me whats the difference if you use a quad or other to get to where you want to hunt ??? saying the quad would be used only on a good surface gravel road not in rough train I don't see any difference ??? I myself use my quad to get to B from A does that make me lazy I say not ,,if a person wants to compare both then we all need to walk from our home to the area we want to get to....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Will do I'm going to try to be at the meeting next week thanks buddy..

No meeting next week. It's our annual x-mas potluck today. Won't be much for regular meeting stuff....but we will have sign-up sheets for our fundraiser banquet in Feb.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The videos on YouTube are never ending. I've commented on a number of them but it's an uphill battle. :evil: These people are a great threat to hunting. We need to focus on scientific management initiatives. Further regulation will not make more deer.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-lR_vOD9D8

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FJzKBQe7LN0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJTrv5RtmM

Kind of like "whack-a-mole". Just keep popping up all over!

[Walksalot]

I wonder if the GO in that neck of the woods is still bringing in clients for Whitetail and Mule Deer hunts?

[Weatherby Fan]

I wonder if the GO in that neck of the woods is still bringing in clients for Whitetail and Mule Deer hunts?

Probably not as there are no deer left, remember the slob crossbow hunters on ATC's have cleaned them out !

[coach]

Kind of like "whack-a-mole". Just keep popping up all over!

Apparently CBC featured the audio from Brandow's YouTube video on the radio this morning. I can't imagine a worse message to deliver to he non-hunting public than "hunters have killed all the deer". :twisted: This stuff is going viral and it's a huge threat to all of us.

I was appalled, on the weekend, to hear our regional bio state that the whitetail doe season was implemented purely in the interest of "hunter opportunity" and that "if hunters don't want it, he could cancel the season". He made no reference to the fact that the season was actually put in place to stem the competition between WT and MD in order to help MD. It definitely sounded like the negativity from his group has weighed on him to he point where he's ready to abandon science and cave to the wishes of those who prefer to manage hunters instead of wildlife.

[coach]

I wonder if the GO in that neck of the woods is still bringing in clients for Whitetail and Mule Deer hunts?

My understanding is that he hasn't sold a deer hunt since sometime in the 1990's. I can't help but think "his" sheep herd is also being affected by environmental concerns. Social management won't help those animals either.

[Walksalot]

Is there still a game banquet in Grand Forks at the end of the season? Do they still give out awards for the biggest animals taken? Have they eliminated Mule Deer and Whitetail Deer from categories legible for an award? If there are still awards in the Mule and Whitetail deer categories, instead of awards, are the winners taken out and publicly flogged?

[coach]

Is there still a game banquet in Grand Forks at the end of the season? Do they still give out awards for the biggest animals taken? Have they eliminated Mule Deer and Whitetail Deer from categories legible for an award? If there are still awards in the Mule and Whitetail deer categories, instead of awards, are the winners taken out and publicly flogged?

Ha ha! :-D

The fact is: there are issues with the MD population in the Boundary. The solutions are going to take time. Hunters fighting with hunters over regulations will not help anything. Hunters going to the media and blaming over hunting for the depletion of the herd is an extremely dangerous road to go down. We need to work together in this. Divided we fail.

[Walksalot]

I sure blew the spelling of "eligible" didn't I?

[35 Whelen]

When I was a teenager..a while back ( wink wink ) Brando was my PE teacher at West Whalley Jr High. He hasnt' changed a bit, he is a whiny, arrogant bugger who has always been pretty self centered. If things aren't going his way he just yells louder. And for those who say he doesn't hunt.....or doesn't deer hunt. We ran into his son's pack string years ago in the Christina Lake area and they were non to pleased that we were headed up to the top of the ridge he was headed to. We passed him and turned around another 1/4 mile up the road and came back down.

[Ajsawden]

This is an excellent thread everyone. People have brought up some excellent points.

These are my observations on the subject at hand. Though, I am not intimately familiar with the area under discussion, I do spend the first week of November, in Tulameen, in the same location every year and have witnessed some changes in my time there. Around 6 years ago a large series of blocks were logged creating a nearly 1200ha clear cut. This was mid elevation, south facing, gentle slopes. I'm assuming this used to be the winter range for a lot of deer in the area. I still hunt there, and we still have success, though perhaps notice the opportunities are fewer these days. I don't know if the deer are dead, or they have simply moved to somewhere with more suitable wintering habitat. This may not be an issue in the short term for total deer numbers, but one has to be aware that as more winter ranges are logged, there are less places for deer to go. More deer in less ground means less food for the deer. In bad winters, this puts stress on populations and potentially large winter kills. Another issue with confining the ungulate populations is that it provides a focus for predators (including hunters). I believe, at present, the largest driving factor of deer populations is suitable winter range.

I might have more to say later. Cheers

[Singleshotneeded]

He's a Guide Outfitter who is upset residents are able to access areas he used to be able to do with horses

Bang...nailed it on the head...perhaps we should send him some processed cheese slices to go with his whine! :-)

[d6dan]

Is there still a game banquet in Grand Forks at the end of the season?

As far as I've heard, they rented out the Wildlife hall to the Baptist Church. There seems to be little interest in club membership.Too bad, back in the day It was a good club.

[Walksalot]

This is an excellent thread everyone. People have brought up some excellent points.

These are my observations on the subject at hand. Though, I am not intimately familiar with the area under discussion, I do spend the first week of November, in Tulameen, in the same location every year and have witnessed some changes in my time there. Around 6 years ago a large series of blocks were logged creating a nearly 1200ha clear cut. This was mid elevation, south facing, gentle slopes. I'm assuming this used to be the winter range for a lot of deer in the area. I still hunt there, and we still have success, though perhaps notice the opportunities are fewer these days. I don't know if the deer are dead, or they have simply moved to somewhere with more suitable wintering habitat. This may not be an issue in the short term for total deer numbers, but one has to be aware that as more winter ranges are logged, there are less places for deer to go. More deer in less ground means less food for the deer. In bad winters, this puts stress on populations and potentially large winter kills. Another issue with confining the ungulate populations is that it provides a focus for predators (including hunters). I believe, at present, the largest driving factor of deer populations is suitable winter range.

I might have more to say later. Cheers

Since the demise of the Lodge Pole Pine the logging companies are turning their attention to the fir and larch. It does not bode well for the future of the winter ranges.

[d6dan]

He's a Guide Outfitter who is upset residents are able to access areas he used to be able to do with horses

Mt Faith and Gladstone are a couple of the areas that come to mind.

[Hunting/addict]

Lets look at what has changed since 1992/93 when deer were at their peak then declined rapidly and have never recovered. Hunter numbers are less than the previous decades so its not that. Seasons are no more liberal and bag limits are lower so its not that. The biggest change is a huge increase in access, to previously remote areas, the ability to get to semi remote areas easily with quads and the ability to easily pack game out with quads. The other major change is wide spread expansion of wolves. In our area wolves were usually found north of Shuswap lake and in the Adams and now they are seen virtually every where. If the stats are true each wolf is responsible for the removal of about 35-40 deer per year...wow The other change is increased fire control with detrimental effect in areas without large fire complexes. If you look around the majority of deer remaiNing are aassociated with these fires. The last and maybe largest element is reduced winter range and very low winter range quality. Region 3 has some of the most liberal seasons and high harvewsts but still has more deer and better hunting than other areras. This is because it has more winter range of which some is better quality. It is like the stATES WHICH HAVE HUGE HUNTING PRESSURE AND HARVEST RATES BUT STILL PRODUCE AREAS WITH HIGH NUMBERS OF UNGULATES. tHIS IS BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE PROACTIVE IN LIMITING ACCESS AND MANAGE THE QUALITY AND QUANTITY OF THEIR WINTER RANGES. THATS MY TWO CENTS WORTH. I HAV EWATCHED THE DECREASE INNUMBERS WHILE OUR GAME MANAGERS DO NOTHING.....TOO MUCH TALK AND TOO LITTLE ACTION..... I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT BURNS AND FOR THE MOST PART OTHER THAN THE EAST KOOTENSYS THE BURNS ARE TOO SMALL TO BE OF MAJOR CONSEQUENCE. lAND MANAGERS ARE AFRAID TO USE FIRE WHICH IS A GREAT TOOL.

[one-shot-wonder]

Nail on the head hunting addict......Habitat quality/quantity and predatation is everything when it comes to the decline over the past 20 years.

[Keta1969]

Nail on the head hunting addict......Habitat quality/quantity and predatation is everything when it comes to the decline over the past 20 years.

I agree with this but I firmly believe we have to address the access issue. We need more vehicle restricted areas, vast areas have been opened up and getting in and out has never been easier. People forget as they drive or atv to a remote area that they are passing through areas that used to have healthy deer populations. It seems that habitat destruction and access are huge problems. Just my opinion.

[Jagermeister]

I have to have a say on what I read on one post on this thread ,,, I Look at it this way we all use trucks or other to get from A to B if I am wrong tell me whats the difference if you use a quad or other to get to where you want to hunt ??? saying the quad would be used only on a good surface gravel road not in rough train I don't see any difference ??? I myself use my quad to get to B from A does that make me lazy I say not ,,if a person wants to compare both then we all need to walk from our home to the area we want to get to....
I totally agree with you H47.
What is the difference between a hunter that uses a horse and one that uses a ATV? Neither are really enviriomentaly friendly. I keep a quad because I don't have to feed it every day and I don't have to shovel any crap from it either. Can't park a hayburner in my garage.

[coach]

Very good good post, Hunting/addict!


I agree with this but I firmly believe we have to address the access issue. We need more vehicle restricted areas, vast areas have been opened up and getting in and out has never been easier. People forget as they drive or atv to a remote area that they are passing through areas that used to have healthy deer populations. It seems that habitat destruction and access are huge problems. Just my opinion.

Vehicle restricted areas don't usually work. First off, roads make chasing down game much easier for predators. Secondly, people completely ignore road closures. We've seen places where trucks have pulled cement barriers and signs right out of the way and a steady stream of traffic have pounded the closed areas all day. Sure, we can (and do) report these people, but enforcement costs money and very often the perpetrators get away with breaking the rules. Completely deactivating and re-planting roads stops both problems.

[doughan]

Ditto! I could not agree more with your statement Walksalot!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Access is only an issue if you're beating the crap out of your buck populations. Flight counts in the Grandby area revealed very healthy buck to doe ratios so regulated hunting is not contributing to reduced populations in mule deer: however, as coach mentioned, roads make predators more efficient.

SSS

[Walksalot]

As the insect damage spiraled out of control the logging of our forests was thrown into the lap of the logging companies and they were allowed to carry on with reckless abandoned. The animals have no where to hide and "way back" is a thing of the past. Restricting vehicle access is nothing more than discriminating against a hunters mode of transportation. It is truly sad how the people who manage our wildlife were left out when it came to considerations to the well being of our wildlife populations. They have damn near been reduced to a department in name only. Cuts in funding have reached through the backs of our managers of wildlife and enforcers of the rules governing the pursuit of our wildlife and ripped their lungs out.
These people who are in the media complaining of low populations of wildlife and excess vehicular access are only now deciding to take some action. You can't tell me that they did not take advantage of increased access to get their clients closer to the action with less effort and probably less expense. You can't tell me they didn't make money with clients cropping off the cream of the crop animals before the populations started to decline. Yeah, cry me a f@#$ing river.

[quaint bucket]

Colour me stupid, but why would the land managers be so afraid of using fire for wildlife management? Every books I've read points to it as being A Good Thing for recovery and rejuvenation of the woods.

Are they worried about it getting out of hand or is it more to do with the general public perception?

[horshur]

there are probably more deer there now then a hundred years ago just most of them are whitetails rather then mule deer...

[bigben]

Colour me stupid, but why would the land managers be so afraid of using fire for wildlife management? Every books I've read points to it as being A Good Thing for recovery and rejuvenation of the woods.

Are they worried about it getting out of hand or is it more to do with the general public perception?


It all started when the lady spilled hot coffee on her lap and sued MacDonald restaurant for 1.4 million dollars , LIABILITY it stops anyone from lighten a fire nobody wants to take the responsibility especially the government only fires your going to see on migratory rangeland is natural fires ..............my two bits worth

[coach]

It all started when the lady spilled hot coffee on her lap and sued MacDonald restaurant for 1.4 million dollars , LIABILITY it stops anyone from lighten a fire nobody wants to take the responsibility especially the government only fires your going to see on migratory rangeland is natural fires ..............my two bits worth

I guess we have two choices.. we can do nothing, or we can make our MLA's aware of the fact that we support the use of fire for improving habitat AND for reducing risk of future wildfires. Proposing that we burn to help animal populations increase so that we can hunt them may not be popular with the general public. An angle that might make even more sense is to support controlled burns as a means of burning fuel and helping to stem the danger of residential areas being destroyed as happened in the OK mountain fire of 2003.

[goatdancer]

If you're going to suggest vehicle restrictions then that should include horses.

[Sitkaspruce]

I agree with this but I firmly believe we have to address the access issue. We need more vehicle restricted areas, vast areas have been opened up and getting in and out has never been easier. People forget as they drive or atv to a remote area that they are passing through areas that used to have healthy deer populations. It seems that habitat destruction and access are huge problems. Just my opinion.

I am all for "some" access control, but restricting access will not save deer or other animals. Why, again, do hunters point to other hunters as a probelm. Roads allow unregulated "Poaching" during the winter, wolves and yotes to travel long distances without burning much energy and to a certain extent, access into the "backcountry", but animals are not stupid, they will move away or learn to avoid roads. Road hunters are not the problem, neither is access. If we do restrict access, then we will be putting more pressure on the remaining access we do have, which will have adverse affects on hunter numbers, localized populations of animals and it will get other users (ATV clubs, Indians and the dreaded logging companies) involved in access control.

Access needs to be looked at, but it is not the problem.

Cheers

SS

[Seeker]

This is only my personal opinion, but quads have changed hunting for the worse. The are fun as hell to ride, but they provide access to too many areas that were once non accessible. I would love to see restrictions even if only the same as those near Vanderhoof. Quads are a contributing factor, but I agree that we need controlled burns, better winter habitat and reduced access to areas. I was in an area this fall that was a recent burn, and the logging company had removed their desired wood and had reclaimed a bunch of the road (unfortunately not all of it) by tearing up the ground and placing old stumps and logs across the torn up area making it very unfavourable if not impossible for quads to travel on. I loved it! The area was covered in both deer and moose tracks despite roads surrounding the area. In two days we saw plenty of both species. I am a staunch advocate of road deactivation, and I would rather see a few areas with road access hit with a ton of pressure (as some suggest is a result of restricted access) and more areas with less pressure to serve as refuges for the deer.
The reason that I have heard of such aggressive fire fighting in BC is to protect the lumber for economic purposes. If we were to let it burn naturally, a whole bunch of government logging dollars literally go up in smoke. They are simply trying to protect a valuable financial resource.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This is only my personal opinion, but quads have changed hunting for the worse. The are fun as hell to ride, but they provide access to too many areas that were once non accessible. I would love to see restrictions even if only the same as those near Vanderhoof. Quads are a contributing factor, but I agree that we need controlled burns, better winter habitat and reduced access to areas. I was in an area this fall that was a recent burn, and the logging company had removed their desired wood and had reclaimed a bunch of the road (unfortunately not all of it) by tearing up the ground and placing old stumps and logs across the torn up area making it very unfavourable if not impossible for quads to travel on. I loved it! The area was covered in both deer and moose tracks despite roads surrounding the area. In two days we saw plenty of both species. I am a staunch advocate of road deactivation, and I would rather see a few areas with road access hit with a ton of pressure (as some suggest is a result of restricted access) and more areas with less pressure to serve as refuges for the deer.
The reason that I have heard of such aggressive fire fighting in BC is to protect the lumber for economic purposes. If we were to let it burn naturally, a whole bunch of government logging dollars literally go up in smoke. They are simply trying to protect a valuable financial resource.

Were there lots of deer and moose there because of lack of pressure...... or the burn???

[Sitkaspruce]

This is only my personal opinion, but quads have changed hunting for the worse. The are fun as hell to ride, but they provide access to too many areas that were once non accessible. I would love to see restrictions even if only the same as those near Vanderhoof. Quads are a contributing factor, but I agree that we need controlled burns, better winter habitat and reduced access to areas. I was in an area this fall that was a recent burn, and the logging company had removed their desired wood and had reclaimed a bunch of the road (unfortunately not all of it) by tearing up the ground and placing old stumps and logs across the torn up area making it very unfavourable if not impossible for quads to travel on. I loved it! The area was covered in both deer and moose tracks despite roads surrounding the area. In two days we saw plenty of both species. I am a staunch advocate of road deactivation, and I would rather see a few areas with road access hit with a ton of pressure (as some suggest is a result of restricted access) and more areas with less pressure to serve as refuges for the deer.
The reason that I have heard of such aggressive fire fighting in BC is to protect the lumber for economic purposes. If we were to let it burn naturally, a whole bunch of government logging dollars literally go up in smoke. They are simply trying to protect a valuable financial resource.

If you look at the area a road actually covers, it is very minimal, it is the access to openings that can affect species. So, really we need to get the openings grown up so there is cover from the access. A road being deactivated does not provide refuge for species. Animals already have those figured out and the since roads cover a minimal cross section of area, they provide limited areas to hunt. But what it access is where there can be precieved problems; burns, cutblocks and other openings.

Every mature tree that goes up in smoke is lost stumpage $$$ to the taxpayers of BC, so yes they aggresively attack fires, but there is other reasons, like life and property. A fire is looked at for these reason before sending resources.

Deactivation and limited acces will probably not increase deer numbers, it will though, restrict hunters and possibly put more pressure in a limited area though.

Cheers

SS

[Walksalot]

This is only my personal opinion, but quads have changed hunting for the worse. The are fun as hell to ride, but they provide access to too many areas that were once non accessible. I would love to see restrictions even if only the same as those near Vanderhoof. Quads are a contributing factor, but I agree that we need controlled burns, better winter habitat and reduced access to areas. I was in an area this fall that was a recent burn, and the logging company had removed their desired wood and had reclaimed a bunch of the road (unfortunately not all of it) by tearing up the ground and placing old stumps and logs across the torn up area making it very unfavourable if not impossible for quads to travel on. I loved it! The area was covered in both deer and moose tracks despite roads surrounding the area. In two days we saw plenty of both species. I am a staunch advocate of road deactivation, and I would rather see a few areas with road access hit with a ton of pressure (as some suggest is a result of restricted access) and more areas with less pressure to serve as refuges for the deer.
The reason that I have heard of such aggressive fire fighting in BC is to protect the lumber for economic purposes. If we were to let it burn naturally, a whole bunch of government logging dollars literally go up in smoke. They are simply trying to protect a valuable financial resource.

It would be interesting to hear what the Cattleman's Association has to say about road deactivation. The clear cuts are providing grazing for the cattle and a lot of ranchers use quads to keep an eye on their investment.

Go into any forest with a shovel and dig a hole. I would be surprised if you didn't find a layer or two of ash. It is a very important occurrence in the life of any forest. In our infinite wisdom we suppressed fires in our forests to the point that two more mills have shut down in Northern British Columbia because the forest is dead. In the final analysis fire would have had far less impact on our forests and mills may well be still in operation. We put out the fires so we could generate revenue and in the end lost the economic realization we might have gotten from an entire provincial forest. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

[NickS]

So what is the most environmentally friendly mode of transportation, or way to hunt? What if you only have 1 or 2 hunting buddies you really trust, how do you hike 600lbs of elk or even something like a moose and your camp out from a weeks expedition? What if you work out of town a lot to afford the cost of living now and don't have the time to raise and train a good bush pony? Is it shameful to use a quad to get way out there and hike the spines from there? I've got no problem working for the hunt, I spent weeks in the bush this year with my buddy, 100 mile area, Trail area, Harrison area. We passed people just sitting in trucks, goin' for a drive? Do you walk from town? Truck hunters don't... But then how do you get passed all the truck traffic to those secluded areas where you might find a big bull or buck? We've found that the elk population has been hugely damaged in the valley we were hunting. But is that because we were quading? We didn't even get to take one, and we really worked for it this year. I was pretty upset, not that we didn't get one but to know the population was hit so hard? I would rather see the 6 point season closed and wait 5 to 10 years if need be to win a bull draw, it beats never getting one at all?
Everyone seems to have a different opinion now. Some shame truck hunters, some shame quad hunters, some say it's unfair that only cowboys and guides should be able to hunt? Do we all join in and ask for tighter seasons and more LEH? Do people who can't have horses simply quit and dream about hunting..?
I don't know.. All I know is that I like hunting, I'm not greedy, I follow the regs, and I don't want to be shamed for hunting? If anyone can tell me the "right" way to hunt please let me know, cause I'd like to continue..

[Gateholio]

6pt elk season is a fail safe season. It will not result in a drop in elk numbers

[stinkyduck]

Every logging block, after its been deactivated, has to have a quad trail in! so foresters can access the area.

[Bigbullsh$tter]

Every logging block, after its been deactivated, has to have a quad trail in! so foresters can access the area.

Your statement is not a practice that our forestlands department follows. Roads get fully deactivated and bridges get pulled, if it is in the management plan.

[bigben]

I guess we have two choices.. we can do nothing, or we can make our MLA's aware of the fact that we support the use of fire for improving habitat AND for reducing risk of future wildfires. Proposing that we burn to help animal populations increase so that we can hunt them may not be popular with the general public. An angle that might make even more sense is to support controlled burns as a means of burning fuel and helping to stem the danger of residential areas being destroyed as happened in the OK mountain fire of 2003.
Thanxs Coach going to do anything I can to talk to my mla we need a lot of migratory ranged burned in the kootenays for sure

[bigben]

6pt elk season is a fail safe season. It will not result in a drop in elk numbers
No your right gatehouse but what about the strain on the quality of the elk , are we going the way of the whitetail nad having the younger elk do the breeding where are the big bulls look whats happening in the west 5 years and all the big daddys are getting shot same restriction here you are weeding out the mature breeders keep it up for another 5 and you won t be able to find the behometh elk that you were used to taking in the limited entry season , point restriction works not knoocking it but for how long ?

[trapperRick]

There is no one factor/reason responsible for declining numbers of game, I think habitat loss is a big reason also the pine beetle and all the clear cuts have allowed easier access for all predators wolf/man, the oil patch with all the access roads/pipelines etc. I also agree that quad hunting has had a negative impact on hunting of that there is no doubt in my mind, I think quads are useful in retrieving a downed animal but I don't like them used as they seem to be used right now guys just driving around all day this is not how I was taught to hunt, but this is just my opinion. But my point is there are many reasons that make animal numbers go up and down some of which we simple humans don't understand.

I have to say I always get a chuckle when I read posts here that wolf's and other natural predators are at fault as if they are to blame for "declining numbers" and there should be culls and all wolfs need to be shot because the wolfs are killing our animals! How arrogant

[Wild one]

There is no one factor/reason responsible for declining numbers of game, I think habitat loss is a big reason also the pine beetle and all the clear cuts have allowed easier access for all predators wolf/man, the oil patch with all the access roads/pipelines etc. I also agree that quad hunting has had a negative impact on hunting of that there is no doubt in my mind, I think quads are useful in retrieving a downed animal but I don't like them used as they seem to be used right now guys just driving around all day this is not how I was taught to hunt, but this is just my opinion. But my point is there are many reasons that make animal numbers go up and down some of which we simple humans don't understand.

I have to say I always get a chuckle when I read posts here that wolf's and other natural predators are at fault as if they are to blame for "declining numbers" and there should be culls and all wolfs need to be shot because the wolves are killing our animals! How arrogant


I agree habitat and changes to access are the some of the biggest issues

I do believe wolves make an impact but not to the level many believe. Manage there numbers I agree with just like any other species but the dream cull most are hoping for is overkill. Lots of areas in BC where the wolf population is really not high yet game numbers are dropping.

Biggest problem I see hunters want to keep being able to harvest the same number of a species and have the same seasons regardless of changes in game numbers and habitat. Many want to believe we make no impact on a population but we do even if it is only a small one.

Already know most will disagree with at least part of what I have posted

[hunter1993ap]

No your right gatehouse but what about the strain on the quality of the elk , are we going the way of the whitetail nad having the younger elk do the breeding where are the big bulls look whats happening in the west 5 years and all the big daddys are getting shot same restriction here you are weeding out the mature breeders keep it up for another 5 and you won t be able to find the behometh elk that you were used to taking in the limited entry season , point restriction works not knoocking it but for how long ?

in my opinion the west will always have big bulls. its just to nasty of country to kill all the big smart bulls. that country was like hunting a park before the general open season. the bulls have caught on and it shows with the amount of success. but it is super hard country to hunt, and all the guys who thought it would be a cake walk have stopped hunting it.

[Sofa King]

if I remember correctly, someone on here was complaining all season about their not being any deer anywhere in the princeton area either.
just 'cause someone's getting skunked, doesn't mean the deer are gone.

[GoatGuy]

I agree habitat and changes to access are the some of the biggest issues

I do believe wolves make an impact but not to the level many believe. Manage there numbers I agree with just like any other species but the dream cull most are hoping for is overkill. Lots of areas in BC where the wolf population is really not high yet game numbers are dropping.

Biggest problem I see hunters want to keep being able to harvest the same number of a species and have the same seasons regardless of changes in game numbers and habitat. Many want to believe we make no impact on a population but we do even if it is only a small one.

Already know most will disagree with at least part of what I have posted

There is plenty of research on this stuff.

Don't think..... know.

Here's a start:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/techpub/b73.pdf

[Wild one]

There is plenty of research on this stuff.

Don't think..... know.

Here's a start:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/techpub/b73.pdf


In what I posted it says right there I agree they can make an impact

Wolves are not the issue in many deer populations that are dropping were there is little to no wolves. Even though I have heard many hunter complain it is wolves even though there is no sign of them in the area.

Again not a blanket across BC issue but yes wolves are making an impact in parts of BC. Know doubt in my mind wolves are on the up swing in areas seen it first hand.

Small part of the issue of decreasing population in some areas and larger in others.

I do agree our wolf management in BC at this time does little to nothing in effecting wolf numbers and some areas could use the numbers nocked back

[Sofa King]

Every logging block, after its been deactivated, has to have a quad trail in! so foresters can access the area.

not true at all.
maybe it's a "rule" of theirs, but it's definitely not practiced.
I find blocks all the time where they've totally annihilated the access.
one would have a hard time even walking into where there used to be a road.

[Gamebuster]

If you look at the area a road actually covers, it is very minimal, it is the access to openings that can affect species. So, really we need to get the openings grown up so there is cover from the access. A road being deactivated does not provide refuge for species. Animals already have those figured out and the since roads cover a minimal cross section of area, they provide limited areas to hunt. But what it access is where there can be precieved problems; burns, cutblocks and other openings.

Every mature tree that goes up in smoke is lost stumpage $$$ to the taxpayers of BC, so yes they aggresively attack fires, but there is other reasons, like life and property. A fire is looked at for these reason before sending resources.

Deactivation and limited acces will probably not increase deer numbers, it will though, restrict hunters and possibly put more pressure in a limited area though.

Cheers

SS

Some research on deer suggests otherwise...if behaviour is such to avoid roads as road density rises then roads can essentially reduce available habitat...what ultimately happens at that point? Less capability to maintain numbers

[Wild one]

not true at all.
maybe it's a "rule" of theirs, but it's definitely not practiced.
I find blocks all the time where they've totally annihilated the access.
one would have a hard time even walking into where there used to be a road.


It maybe possibility that not all areas follow those guide line but some definitely do.

My brother has done deactivation contracts and the guide lines he was given for his cross ditches were to make it so a truck could not get through but still possible for a quad.

[Sofa King]

It maybe possibility that not all areas follow those guide line but some definitely do.

My brother has done deactivation contracts and the guide lines he was given for his cross ditches were to make it so a truck could not get through but still possible for a quad.

ya, I've seen many of those.
drove my truck through many of them also.

some I find though, they've taken the digger blades I'm guessing from a skidder and just destroyed the entire entrance.

[aggiehunter]

.358...it took me this long to get my popcorn going.....had to tie a few dry's imbetweext..