Close any buck general open seasons in the East Okanagan and Kootenays

[Jagermeister]

You have time for input
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/hunting/close-any-buck-general-open-seasons-east-okanagan-and-kootenays

[goatdancer]

The Okanagan will lose any buck in 8-12 to 8-15.

[Sofa King]

fine by me.
I hate the any "buck" season anyway.
as long as they keep a youth hunt open, it's all good.
if it's for the betterment of the deer populations, then everyone should be happy about it.

[pnbrock]

should be a straight 4-point season everywhere inmo!!!

[RiverOtter]

Wonder what the next step is gonna be, when closing little bucks doesn't turn MD declines around.

Maybe a 5 point season, to keep more wolves healthy through the winter..........:roll::roll::roll:

[Sofa King]

Wonder what the next step is gonna be, when closing little bucks doesn't turn MD declines around.

Maybe a 5 point season, to keep more wolves healthy through the winter..........:roll::roll::roll:

would you rather they do nothing and let the deer pops continue to decline?

[Weatherby Fan]

Wonder what the next step is gonna be, when closing little bucks doesn't turn MD declines around.

Maybe a 5 point season, to keep more wolves healthy through the winter..........:roll::roll::roll:


Well exactly, if the buck to doe ratio is ok and the any buck season is not harming the overall numbers of deer and the doe's are being bread........why change........just to appease a few whiners ? Politics should never dictate management strategies.

[Everett]

Typical non scientific crap, managing hunters not managing wildlife. Funny they claim its EK residents who are against any buck seasons but its EK residents who are killing the little bucks not hunters from out of region.
So now we go back to blasting every deer with good genetics and letting the ones with bad genetics do the breeding.

[ru rancher]

should be a straight 4-point season everywhere inmo!!!
very bad idea this ensures all bad gentics bucks to survuve unless taken by the environment even if the doe has half the genetics they will get weeker in time

[325]

Personally, I don't like the MD any buck season either, because I would like to see more mature MD bucks. That said, the decline in the MD population is a symptom of greater problems, and has nothing to do with the any buck season. Habitat loss, heavy snows (especially in conjunction with cold spring weather) and predation are the greatest threats IMO.

[Sofa King]

Well exactly, if the buck to doe ratio is ok and the any buck season is not harming the overall numbers of deer and the doe's are being bread........why change........just to appease a few whiners ? Politics should never dictate management strategies.

is it just politics?
is there really no wildlife knowledge being used to decide these changes?
I know there are several proposed changes for region 3 next year as well.
shortening the moose season, making the whitetail harvest better, and more.
they all seem good to me.
I would like to think they don't draw from a hat some ideas for changes.

[Weatherby Fan]

Yup managing for their own selfish reasons not for the betterment of the species ?
I can't believe our biologists allow this nonsense to take place.

[Sofa King]

very bad idea this ensures all bad gentics bucks to survuve unless taken by the environment even if the doe has half the genetics they will get weeker in time

really?
how many hunters go out looking for a "bad genetic" deer to shoot?

[325]

I'm think ICBC plays more of a role in wildlife management than it should.

[Sofa King]

Yup managing for their own selfish reasons not for the betterment of the species ?
I can't believe our biologists allow this nonsense to take place.

what are their "own selfish reasons"?
are they really not doing it so that less deer are harvested?

[kebes]

I spoke up.

Having grown up in the Okanagan and spending a great amount of time hunting there over the last decade I am simply appalled by the government's willingness to cave to a minority group of ignorant troglodytes on the mule deer any buck season. Antler restrictions will not create more deer. I am at a point of absolute frustration with this government's inability to recognize the issues that plague our wildlife and deal with them accordingly. Predator management and habitat enhancement are what is needed - not only in the Okanagan and Kootenay's but throughout all of the province. It's time for someone to grow a pair of testicles and start applying the necessary wildlife management tools within our province to see healthy numbers of ungulates once again.


I reiterate, point restrictions may pacify a vocal minority but they won't lead to more deer.

[Weatherby Fan]

is it just politics?
is there really no wildlife knowledge being used to decide these changes?
I know there are several proposed changes for region 3 next year as well.
shortening the moose season, making the whitetail harvest better, and more.
they all seem good to me.
I would like to think they don't draw from a hat some ideas for changes.


Duallie i I haven't shot anything less than a 4 point mule deer in over 20 years as I only hunt Mature mule deer but never would I suggest to manage a species for antlers !
If there is that much of a concern for mule deer population in those areas they should close them to hunting period and work on habitat and reduce predatation.

did you not read the comment in the link that the OP posted ?

[Ron.C]

I'm all for the any buck closure if the science/management data deems it necessary step to maintain healthy numbers. I'm 100% against it if the numbers are there, but some just want to use it as a tool to see more 4pts.

[coach]

Tons of mature moose around this year. Interesting what happens after years of spike/fork only season supplemented by LEH. Want more mature mule deer? Stop shooting the ones that are barely reaching maturity. I'm all for LEH on 4 points. Give the bucks with good genetics a break.

Let's be clear - getting rid of any buck season is purely political. It won't make more deer and it won't result in more 4 points. Unfortunately the vocal minority, with no understanding of science or the real issues facing deer populations are making the most noise. It's disappointing to hear the bios are caving to this BS.

[ru rancher]

really?
how many hunters go out looking for a "bad genetic" deer to shoot?
ummm meat hunters that dont care about the rack ummm people who are hunting for there first time and will shoot any buck ummm people that are hunting with there kids and want to see them smile over a success full trip idk LOTS of people dont just shoot big old prime genetics bucks

[coach]

fine by me.
I hate the any "buck" season anyway.
as long as they keep a youth hunt open, it's all good.
if it's for the betterment of the deer populations, then everyone should be happy about it.

So you're not a fan of predator management and you enjoy antler restrictions. I suppose you feel there are no habitat issues in BC either?

[Sofa King]

ummm meat hunters that dont care about the rack ummm people who are hunting for there first time and will shoot any buck ummm people that are hunting with there kids and want to see them smile over a success full trip idk LOTS of people dont just shoot big old prime genetics bucks

I don't consider a 3-pt or a 2-pt to be "bad genetics".
and I don't think that's what they think either.

is it not better that the deer #'s increase?
go somewhere else where the #'s are higher if getting a deer is that necessary.

[Sofa King]

So you're not a fan of predator management and you enjoy antler restrictions. I suppose you feel there are no habitat issues in BC either?

no, I get all that.
and it's all serious issues.
but that doesn't change that maybe they need to tighten the season next year to help the deer #'s increase.
planting more trees next year isn't helping in the short term.

[ru rancher]

Tons of mature moose around this year. Interesting what happens after years of spike/fork only season supplemented by LEH. Want more mature mule deer? Stop shooting the ones that are barely reaching maturity. I'm all for LEH on 4 points. Give the bucks with good genetics a break.

Let's be clear - getting rid of any buck season is purely political. It won't make more deer and it won't result in more 4 points. Unfortunately the vocal minority, with no understanding of science or the real issues facing deer populations are making the most noise. It's disappointing to hear the bios are caving to this BS.
umm actually buddy in region 5 when they closed any buck except for the month of oct like they plan to do in this place the 4 point population i see now has exploded tons of younger 4 points since it has only bin a few years sure i have seen a few more mature 2-3 points that should be shoot but still the 4 points are way higher numbers then they used to be and this is through scouting in the summer looking in farmers fields just for interest rather then planning to hunt them next year im expecting even bette results

[ru rancher]

I don't consider a 3-pt or a 2-pt to be "bad genetics".
and I don't think that's what they think either.

is it not better that the deer #'s increase?
go somewhere else where the #'s are higher if getting a deer is that necessary.
actually yes that is bad genetics sounds like your an island boy thats never saw real mule deer look at what a typical mule deer looks like 4 POINTS not 2 not 3 but 4 and i never said getting a deer is nessicary its just nice to have more oppertunity and get out and see some beautiful bucks rather then get skunked in sightings in a couple days trip

[one-shot-wonder]

Sigh..........

[coach]

umm actually buddy in region 5 when they closed any buck except for the month of oct like they plan to do in this place the 4 point population i see now has exploded tons of younger 4 points since it has only bin a few years sure i have seen a few more mature 2-3 points that should be shoot but still the 4 points are way higher numbers then they used to be and this is through scouting in the summer looking in farmers fields just for interest rather then planning to hunt them next year im expecting even bette results

There was another important change in Region 5 regulations that may have had an effect. Do you know what it was? Hard to be scientific when only taking in the part of the equation that gives your hypothesis credibility.

[ru rancher]

There was another important change in Region 5 regulations that may have had an effect. Do you know what it was? Hard to be scientific when only taking in the part of the equation that gives your hypothesis credibility.
and what would you say that is the wolf no bag limit? or the closeing of the season during the heavy rut?

[Wrayzer]

How about creating better habitat for mule deer....

[Sofa King]

actually yes that is bad genetics sounds like your an island boy thats never saw real mule deer look at what a typical mule deer looks like 4 POINTS not 2 not 3 but 4 and i never said getting a deer is nessicary its just nice to have more oppertunity and get out and see some beautiful bucks rather then get skunked in sightings in a couple days trip

it's only bad genetics to trophy hunters.
so, are 4 pt'ers bad genetics because they aren't turning into nice, big 6 pt'ers?

they aren't doing this to increase the #'s of big 4pt bucks in the future.
it's being done to increase the # of deer overall.

[coach]

and what would you say that is the wolf no bag limit? or the closeing of the season during the heavy rut?

I think both could have had an effect. Knowing how difficult it's been for hunters to make a dent in wolf populations, I suspect the rut closure may have been a bigger factor. It used to be any buck until Nov 20 and we were allowed a second buck in the 10 days after that. Point is - there's more than one reason that could have effected numbers.

[325]

ummm meat hunters that dont care about the rack ummm people who are hunting for there first time and will shoot any buck ummm people that are hunting with there kids and want to see them smile over a success full trip idk LOTS of people dont just shoot big old prime genetics bucks

I would argue that most there isn't much special about the genetics of most big antlered ungulates, but that those "trophy" bucks/bulls are just older and have reached maturity.
One of my hunting partners is from Montana, and where they elk hunt, there are lots and lots of elk, but few mature bulls, because of the high hunting pressure and ability to shoot small 3 point bulls. Their liberal regulations do not reduce over-all elk numbers, but they do result in very low numbers of mature bull elk.

[one-shot-wonder]

Apparently some on here missed this link which was posted on another mule deer thread. Gerry Kuzyk is a provincial ungulate specialist, note what he states about antler point restrictions!

http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-con...il-26-2012.pdf (http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kuzyk_Mule-Deer-BCWF-April-26-2012.pdf)

[Whonnock Boy]

When I first joined this site I was uneducated in the realm of wildlife management. Hell, I still know very little in the big scheme of things but, after hours, days, months of reading posts from knowledgeable members on this site, there is no doubt that science trumps all. Not long ago I too would have thought closing it down would have been great for big bucks but, that is simply not the case. Bucks don't get bred, does do! If the habitat they live in is not healthy, the same could be said for the ungulate population. The two go hand in hand. If predators are not controlled, they grow out of control. I just wonder how many times it has to be said in order for it to sink in with some people?

[coach]

How about creating better habitat for mule deer....

Don't be ridiculous! Btw - that was a nice young four point you got this year. Thanks for doing your part for conservation. :-D

[Sofa King]

How about creating better habitat for mule deer....

that won't help the dwindling #'s now though.
the ever-increasing clear-cuts and loss of habitat is a big problem.
but the logging isn't going to stop, so that's not an option.
with the way the beetle-kill had affected the province, muley populations will suffer everywhere.

[wsm]

so my Question is where is BCWF in all this and what is their stance ?

[Sofa King]

When I first joined this site I was uneducated in the realm of wildlife management. Hell, I still know very little in the big scheme of things but, after hours, days, months of reading posts from knowledgeable members on this site, there is no doubt that science trumps all. Not long ago I too would have thought closing it down would have been great for big bucks but, that is simply not the case. Bucks don't get bred, does do! If the habitat they live in is not healthy, the same could be said for the ungulate population. The two go hand in hand. If predators are not controlled, they grow out of control. I just wonder how many times it has to be said in order for it to sink in with some people?

everything you have said is true.
but how can shutting down a season not help the #'s increase?

[dana]

The trophy hunters think that by forcing everyone to shoot 4 points, there will be bigger bucks in the future. This is actually the complete opposite. What happens is all the hunters are still focusing on young deer, but the exception are they are yearling and 2 year old bucks that are basket 4s. Young and dumb is the bulk of the deer that get killed. Yearling and 2 year old 4's is your next 'Big' bucks. So they are actually shooting off the genetically superior bucks when they are still babies. Thus, they will never grow up into those 6, 7, and 8 year old giants that some of us in better managed Regions get to hunt. These trophy hunters are not very smart. This will not result in bigger bucks for them to hunt. Region 3 is indeed the role model that should be followed. Harvest over all age classes and you will see a healthy population. Harvesting yearling and 2 year old spikes, forkies and 3's during a month long any buck season means hunters aren't forced to shoot the genetically superior yearling and 2 year old 4's to fill the freezer. Thus those 4's will gain some smarts and grow up into the 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 year old giants that you see harvested in Region 3. This ain't rocket science. It is pretty dang simple common sense. But it seems common sense ain't that common these days.

[coach]

that won't help the dwindling #'s now though.
the ever-increasing clear-cuts and loss of habitat is a big problem.
but the logging isn't going to stop, so that's not an option.
with the way the beetle-kill had affected the province, muley populations will suffer everywhere.

There's been work underway in R8 over the last year. Maybe you should join a fish and game club and get involved.

[Wrayzer]

Don't be ridiculous! Btw - that was a nice young four point you got this year. Thanks for doing your part for conservation. :-D
Well when they end up going 4 Point LEH it may be awhile before I'd get another shot at one :D

[one-shot-wonder]

so my Question is where is BCWF in all this and what is their stance ?

The BCWF supports the interior mule deer strategy which is essentially a minimum post-hunt sex ratio of 20 bucks:100 does. The BCWF supports an any buck season so long as it is sustainable ie, >20 bucks:100 does.

[one-shot-wonder]

that won't help the dwindling #'s now though.
the ever-increasing clear-cuts and loss of habitat is a big problem.
but the logging isn't going to stop, so that's not an option.
with the way the beetle-kill had affected the province, muley populations will suffer everywhere.

Good point, access management is definately over due in much of central and southern BC

[ru rancher]

I think both could have had an effect. Knowing how difficult it's been for hunters to make a dent in wolf populations, I suspect the rut closure may have been a bigger factor. It used to be any buck until Nov 20 and we were allowed a second buck in the 10 days after that. Point is - there's more than one reason that could have effected numbers.
and before that you could shoot two bucks standing side by side as long as you had both tags in your pocket times have changed hunting opportunites have increased due to access being alot easyer so the regulations have to change i 100 percent agree with the way they set up the seasons i dont see why people complain they arent biologist (well in most cases) and if they are they arent studying the mule deer the goverment knows enough about the animals to still keep around good unting opportunites heck it may get to a point that in some areas they have to reduce it to LEH only imagine the complaining this site will get then

[ru rancher]

it's only bad genetics to trophy hunters.
so, are 4 pt'ers bad genetics because they aren't turning into nice, big 6 pt'ers?

they aren't doing this to increase the #'s of big 4pt bucks in the future.
it's being done to increase the # of deer overall. okay yes i agree with you they dont do it to increase size but numbers some people where saying though that the population in said area was good and had good ratios iv never bin around there though so i cant say thats a fact

[wsm]

everyone talks about mule deer habitat
what is wrecking the habitat ?
wolves?
cattle overgrazing?
invasive plant species?

lets face it, the habitat that really matters is winter range .
so what areas need enhancement ?
what needs to be done to help restore their habitat?


who can answer all these questions?

[Sofa King]

The BCWF supports the interior mule deer strategy which is essentially a minimum post-hunt sex ratio of 20 bucks:100 does. The BCWF supports an any buck season so long as it is sustainable ie, >20 bucks:100 does.precisely.
and they are simply comparing "bucks" to does ratio.
not "4pt bucks" to does like some seem to think.
their objective is to have healthy ratios and populations not providing only trophy bucks.

[ru rancher]

I would argue that most there isn't much special about the genetics of most big antlered ungulates, but that those "trophy" bucks/bulls are just older and have reached maturity.
One of my hunting partners is from Montana, and where they elk hunt, there are lots and lots of elk, but few mature bulls, because of the high hunting pressure and ability to shoot small 3 point bulls. Their liberal regulations do not reduce over-all elk numbers, but they do result in very low numbers of mature bull elk. i know of a few resident bucks that i watch every year that dont ever grow another point most bucks will reach 4 points maybe not trophies but will be 4 points witch is all that matters and thats praire hunting may not be alot easyer but atleast you can spot all the mature bulls and someone is bound to get lucky on those ones so that may explain what montanas problem is here in BC it is alot diffrent

[ru rancher]

precisely.
and they are simply comparing "bucks" to does ratio.
not "4pt bucks" to does like some seem to think.
their objective is to have healthy ratios and populations not providing only trophy bucks.
a 4 point buck is not a trophie buck in many cases as some people on here seam to think but ya they do only care about the numbers i wasnt saying they didnt

[wsm]

The BCWF supports the interior mule deer strategy which is essentially a minimum post-hunt sex ratio of 20 bucks:100 does. The BCWF supports an any buck season so long as it is sustainable ie, >20 bucks:100 does.

region 4 , Is the any buck in that region sustainable ?

[quadrakid]

Pretty soon they will go to mule deer LEH only using a points system like alberta and a bunch of you will love it!

[hunter1993ap]

Pretty soon they will go to mule deer LEH only using a points system like alberta and a bunch of you will love it!

I sure wont!!

[dana]

region 4 , Is the any buck in that region sustainable ?

Yes it is as buck harvest does not limit population growth. You will not see any growth in the population by saving spikes, forkies and 3's.

[Wrayzer]

that won't help the dwindling #'s now though.
the ever-increasing clear-cuts and loss of habitat is a big problem.
but the logging isn't going to stop, so that's not an option.
with the way the beetle-kill had affected the province, muley populations will suffer everywhere.
We took a drive through the West Kootenay's in a winter range for Mules and Elk, there was an active habitat rehabilitation on going in the area, the firs were being "thinned" out with visibility being over 100 yards in areas.
You can bet the Elk and Muleys had a better chance in this area to survive from predators

The logging won't stop, but once they are out of the cut, it's a great opportunity to create habitat for the future.
Something that hasn't always been considered.

[horshur]

dualie there would be less mule deer if it were not for the cut blocks especially with the current fire suppression.

[ru rancher]

We took a drive through the West Kootenay's in a winter range for Mules and Elk, there was an active habitat rehabilitation on going in the area, the firs were being "thinned" out with visibility being over 100 yards in areas.
You can bet the Elk and Muleys had a better chance in this area to survive from predators

The logging won't stop, but once they are out of the cut, it's a great opportunity to create habitat for the future.
Something that hasn't always been considered.
i kinda like this post i feel like cut blocks are a good thing for deer expecially in densly wooded areas just due to the increase in grass growth of course when heavy snow hits then the dence bush has the easyer food so a mix of both would be ideal the problem with cutblocks is it is easy to spot deer and shoot them as they come in to feed and of course if they cut everything witch they are getting pretty close then the winter areas take a big hit but if your snow levels arent two bad the cut blocks i feel are a decent substitute to feed deer and the ravines are a great place to bed and cant be logged anyway

[coach]

The trophy hunters think that by forcing everyone to shoot 4 points, there will be bigger bucks in the future. This is actually the complete opposite. What happens is all the hunters are still focusing on young deer, but the exception are they are yearling and 2 year old bucks that are basket 4s. Young and dumb is the bulk of the deer that get killed. Yearling and 2 year old 4's is your next 'Big' bucks. So they are actually shooting off the genetically superior bucks when they are still babies. Thus, they will never grow up into those 6, 7, and 8 year old giants that some of us in better managed Regions get to hunt. These trophy hunters are not very smart. This will not result in bigger bucks for them to hunt. Region 3 is indeed the role model that should be followed. Harvest over all age classes and you will see a healthy population. Harvesting yearling and 2 year old spikes, forkies and 3's during a month long any buck season means hunters aren't forced to shoot the genetically superior yearling and 2 year old 4's to fill the freezer. Thus those 4's will gain some smarts and grow up into the 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 year old giants that you see harvested in Region 3. This ain't rocket science. It is pretty dang simple common sense. But it seems common sense ain't that common these days.

You damn meat hunter.. :-D:-D

Agree 100%. A few few good "wild fires" have helped things in region 3 as well.

[dana]

As much as many hunters on here dislike clearcuts, they miss the fact that clearcuts are actually mimicking large natural disturbance types. Fire suppression with no logging is a bad thing. Logging on the other hand is creating the same conditions as a fire does.

[Sofa King]

man is responsible for the biggest decline of deer populations.
so then it's up to man to try to manage and balance those populations.
but then that only pisses off guess who? yup, man.

any hint at any restrictions to our harvests just gets some people so pissed off.
well guess what?
year after year of hunting seasons doesn't "help" deer #'s.
eventually at some point, every region sees a year or so of restrictions on something.
imagine if every single hunter filled all of their tags every year?
you don't think that would harm the deer populations?
shit, if everyone was successful, we'd see no deer for years.
and it's not just during the hunting seasons, game is being shot all year long.

they have to shut down fishing seasons some years as well.
same shit.
sometimes we can't do what we want.
sure, it's not always maybe even the proper solutions, but the closures don't "hurt" the #'s.
working on some habitat restoration projects doesn't increase their #'s right away.
increasing pred kills does, obviously, but not enough if the damage is already done.
sometimes we have to see restrictions come in.

my main reason for hating the "any buck" season is the flood of road hunters pounding the roads.

[ru rancher]

As much as many hunters on here dislike clearcuts, they miss the fact that clearcuts are actually mimicking large natural disturbance types. Fire suppression with no logging is a bad thing. Logging on the other hand is creating the same conditions as a fire does.
this is true mule deer like the open expanse even though they still can serive in thick cover the bigger problem with cut blocks (even though i support the logging comunity it supports many familys) is for places that never got wild fires before like out in the quesnel highland the species that adapted to this like the caribou are in decline mostly due to this they arent called woodland caribou for nothing

[Sofa King]

As much as many hunters on here dislike clearcuts, they miss the fact that clearcuts are actually mimicking large natural disturbance types. Fire suppression with no logging is a bad thing. Logging on the other hand is creating the same conditions as a fire does.

you been up the connector lately?
one giant clearcut from merritt to Kelowna doesn't help the mule deer.

[dana]

RU,
Just to clearify, mule deer are browsers not grazers. Coarse woody plants like aspen, birch, rose, saskatoon, falsebox, are what they are seeking in cutblocks.

[kebes]

my main reason for hating the "any buck" season is the flood of road hunters pounding the roads.

Because you have more right to be out there then everyone else does?

[dana]

you been up the connector lately?
one giant clearcut from merritt to Kelowna doesn't help the mule deer.

How big of an area did the OK Mtn Fire or the McLure Fire burn? Were they bad for mule deer?

[ru rancher]

man is responsible for the biggest decline of deer populations.
so then it's up to man to try to manage and balance those populations.
but then that only pisses off guess who? yup, man.

any hint at any restrictions to our harvests just gets some people so pissed off.
well guess what?
year after year of hunting seasons doesn't "help" deer #'s.
eventually at some point, every region sees a year or so of restrictions on something.
imagine if every single hunter filled all of their tags every year?
you don't think that would harm the deer populations?
shit, if everyone was successful, we'd see no deer for years.
and it's not just during the hunting seasons, game is being shot all year long.

they have to shut down fishing seasons some years as well.
same shit.
sometimes we can't do what we want.
sure, it's not always maybe even the proper solutions, but the closures don't "hurt" the #'s.
working on some habitat restoration projects doesn't increase their #'s right away.
increasing pred kills does, obviously, but not enough if the damage is already done.
sometimes we have to see restrictions come in.

my main reason for hating the "any buck" season is the flood of road hunters pounding the roads.
ya i agree with this te road hunters are in great numbers when any buck season hits cause of the dumb young ones may sound selfish but i always feel bad when iv bin watching a young buck with great genes growing all summer then october rolls around and some sees the buck on crownland and thats all she wrote for that buck last time i see it is them dragging it to there truck but i cant stop that and its totally legal so good for them cant save them all for yourself

[Sofa King]

Because you have more right to be out there then everyone else does?

did I say that?
no!

but I sure as shit prefer to hunt in less busy areas than have endless traffic roaring around.
who wouldn't?

[ru rancher]

RU,
Just to clearify, mule deer are browsers not grazers. Coarse woody plants like aspen, birch, rose, saskatoon, falsebox, are what they are seeking in cutblocks.
how come they love the alfalfa fields then? i wouldnt call that browsing but sure even then those plant dont grow well in the forest ompaired to open cut blocks

[ru rancher]

RU,
Just to clearify, mule deer are browsers not grazers. Coarse woody plants like aspen, birch, rose, saskatoon, falsebox, are what they are seeking in cutblocks.
i really dont see what your calling me out for what did i say that you disagree with cause i didnt say they didnt eat those things?

[Jelvis]

The fires made more deer, but the bucks got smaller, only living until three years old and BAM
Thank yah mam
kears my asp good bye, no where to hide my hide on a moon surface and the hunters luv it
now they can see us
Hahahahaha we need trees folks .. the deer need trees too, to hide behind or they die young
That's why more deer butts are smaller
Jel .. PHD in Know it Tall

[dana]

Dually,
Do you seriously believe that road hunting ceases to happen in the 4 point or better season? Like was said before most of the buck harvest happens to be the young and dumb bucks. Whether a yearling or 2 year old buck is a spike or a 4 point makes no difference to their smarts. Road hunters will still be harvesting young deer, they will just be young basket 4's. Road hunting has been going on in this province since the invention of the car. It ain't going to stop due to a point restriction. LMAO!

[Sofa King]

How big of an area did the OK Mtn Fire or the McLure Fire burn? Were they bad for mule deer?

for all the ones that were burned up, they sure were.
I found many deer skeletons out there.
some just bedded down, probably due to the smoke and the fire rolled right over them.
I wish I would have gotten pics of that.

sure those areas have great deer in there now.
but guess what?
they had great deer before the fires also, and probably more.

[Sofa King]

Dually,
Do you seriously believe that road hunting ceases to happen in the 4 point or better season? Like was said before most of the buck harvest happens to be the young and dumb bucks. Whether a yearling or 2 year old buck is a spike or a 4 point makes no difference to their smarts. Road hunters will still be harvesting young deer, they will just be young basket 4's. Road hunting has been going on in this province since the invention of the car. It ain't going to stop due to a point restriction. LMAO!

it definitely lessens dramatically once the "any buck" season closes.
they're still out there, I see them all the time.
but it's been silent out there compared to during any buck.

[ru rancher]

Dually,
Do you seriously believe that road hunting ceases to happen in the 4 point or better season? Like was said before most of the buck harvest happens to be the young and dumb bucks. Whether a yearling or 2 year old buck is a spike or a 4 point makes no difference to their smarts. Road hunters will still be harvesting young deer, they will just be young basket 4's. Road hunting has been going on in this province since the invention of the car. It ain't going to stop due to a point restriction. LMAO!
i dont belive he said it stops just that there are more in any buck season and this is true but the amount of young 4 point is much less sure its sad to lose these soon to be monster bucks but theres no restriction you can do that would save them just if there born on the right piece of property

[dana]

i really dont see what your calling me out for what did i say that you disagree with cause i didnt say they didnt eat those things?

Not calling you out. Just clarifying. You said they ate grasses in cutblocks. For education purposes, I felt I needed to corrected that. There is a big misconception by many on this site that deer are grazers. They are not like sheep. Mule deer are browsers first and foremost. So the plants needed on their winter range is not what a lot of people classically think about.

[ru rancher]

Not calling you out. Just clarifying. You said they ate grasses in cutblocks. For education purposes, I felt I needed to corrected that. There is a big misconception by many on this site that deer are grazers. They are not like sheep. Mule deer are browsers first and foremost. So the plants needed on their winter range is not what a lot of people classically think about.
but they do eat grass maybe not in there winter range i dont recall saying that but ill go back and look

[dana]

i dont belive he said it stops just that there are more in any buck season and this is true but the amount of young 4 point is much less sure its sad to lose these soon to be monster bucks but theres no restriction you can do that would save them just if there born on the right piece of property

You spread out the harvest among all the yearlings and 2 year olds (spikes, forkies, 3's and 4's) and you will see more of those 4's survive and grow some brains and become those big mature bucks that the Region 4 trophy hunters really want. So by eliminating the GOS any buck season, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you are a trophy hunter.

[ru rancher]

You spread out the harvest among all the yearlings and 2 year olds (spikes, forkies, 3's and 4's) and you will see more of those 4's survive and grow some brains and become those big mature bucks that the Region 4 trophy hunters really want. So by eliminating the GOS any buck season, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you are a trophy hunter.
i see what your saying maybe im just less educated with that since the area i hunt maybe sees 5 hunters a year including my self and i feel im pritty good at picking out real young bucks like that last year i passed on a 4 by 3 and 5 by 3 both 2 year old bucks they also had with them a nice first year antler 3 by 3 of course i was in school this fall and was unable to see if they made the winter but ya for sure these bucks i couldve shot on a couple occasions mind you i wasnt driving anything but deffinatly not as smart as older bucks

[Wrayzer]

About as simple as it gets. If guys don't understand that and still cry about closing Any Buck then they are basing asumptions, which they obviously were already doing.

You spread out the harvest among all the yearlings and 2 year olds (spikes, forkies, 3's and 4's) and you will see more of those 4's survive and grow some brains and become those big mature bucks that the Region 4 trophy hunters really want. So by eliminating the GOS any buck season, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you are a trophy hunter.

[ru rancher]

oh and dana i see where i said grasses and then i looked up what they define as "grasses" i feel this was my problem i was calling anything soft and not like a bush a grass thanks for the education

[frenchbar]

Dually,
Do you seriously believe that road hunting ceases to happen in the 4 point or better season? Like was said before most of the buck harvest happens to be the young and dumb bucks. Whether a yearling or 2 year old buck is a spike or a 4 point makes no difference to their smarts. Road hunters will still be harvesting young deer, they will just be young basket 4's. Road hunting has been going on in this province since the invention of the car. It ain't going to stop due to a point restriction. LMAO!

no kidding steve ..day and age of roads to hell and back ..atvs...generaly lazy people lol...rd hunting isn't going to die of to pt restrictions.....

[Jelvis]

The McClure fire was in mule deer winter range, and deer suffer when they enter the range after a major fire, they drop for a couple years then grow back in population for nine years after the fire than stabilize the numbers according to winter range capacity on average. Mr. Sandwhich.
Jelly -- Winter range destruction is not cool for the first few years after, no laughter jus tearce
In my beerce

[dana]

it definitely lessens dramatically once the "any buck" season closes.
they're still out there, I see them all the time.
but it's been silent out there compared to during any buck.

Dually,
That is because you are hunting a Region that has a GOS on any buck. If there wasn't an anybuck season, those hunters that were historically killing spikes and forkies in Oct will still be there driving roads looking for a yearling or 2 year old 4. Nothing changes. The hunters don't simply disappear. If they want meat in their freezer and they will hunt until they get that meat. Of course there will be hunters (especially older hunters with poor eyesight) that will get discouraged because they find counting points challenging. So what happens to them? They just simply stop hunting and not mentoring the younger generation. So what does that mean? Less hunters means less political will to get any and all seasons and we simply all disappear.

[sakohunter]

Why not just put in a LEH season for mule deer bucks in the month that the general open season was. Then you have restricted the harvest. The rest of that regions hunters are on the prowl for 4 point bucks.

[kebes]

Who cares if there are less or more road hunters? Shouldn't bother you if you're not on the roads.

[ru rancher]

Who cares if there are less or more road hunters? Shouldn't bother you if you're not on the roads.
you make a good point but sometimes i wouldnt say angry but discouraged when i have to pull over multiple time on the way to a spot id like to check out because the road is supper busy

[limit time]

There's been work underway in R8 over the last year. Maybe you should join a fish and game club and get involved.
Hard when PETA takes up his time when not on this site.

[kebes]

you make a good point but sometimes i would say angry but discouraged when i have to pull over multiple time on the way to a spot id like to check out because the road is supper busy

I can understand that, and have been frustrated by it at times as well. But I have to remind myself that I have absolutely no more right then anyone else to be out there.

[ru rancher]

I can understand that, and have been frustrated by it at times as well. But I have to remind myself that I have absolutely no more right then anyone else to be out there.
thats why i said discouraged i know i have no more right then they do and if all i have time for is a quick drive down the road then ill do it too but ushually targetting small game at the time but i got nothing against road hunters they all have there reasons

[snareman1234]

As much as many hunters on here dislike clearcuts, they miss the fact that clearcuts are actually mimicking large natural disturbance types. Fire suppression with no logging is a bad thing. Logging on the other hand is creating the same conditions as a fire does.

True, that they currently act as a surrogates to replace natural primary productivity. False, that clearcuts create the same conditions as a fire does. The literature, vegetation plots, and my personal experience has shows fires to produce better habitat than clearcuts.

[limit time]

man is responsible for the biggest decline of deer populations.
so then it's up to man to try to manage and balance those populations.
but then that only pisses off guess who? yup, man.

any hint at any restrictions to our harvests just gets some people so pissed off.
well guess what?
year after year of hunting seasons doesn't "help" deer #'s.
eventually at some point, every region sees a year or so of restrictions on something.
imagine if every single hunter filled all of their tags every year?
you don't think that would harm the deer populations?
shit, if everyone was successful, we'd see no deer for years.
and it's not just during the hunting seasons, game is being shot all year long.

they have to shut down fishing seasons some years as well.
same shit.
sometimes we can't do what we want.
sure, it's not always maybe even the proper solutions, but the closures don't "hurt" the #'s.
working on some habitat restoration projects doesn't increase their #'s right away.
increasing pred kills does, obviously, but not enough if the damage is already done.
sometimes we have to see restrictions come in.

my main reason for hating the "any buck" season is the flood of road hunters pounding the roads.
So...the truth comes out...close it because of the " road hunters".... You are so full of shat!!!

[dana]

you make a good point but sometimes i would say angry but discouraged when i have to pull over multiple time on the way to a spot id like to check out because the road is supper busy

No need to be angry as all hunters have every right to be there just like you. If is "Public" Crown land after all. I have seen numerous threads on here over the years where people bash on road hunters. Do you really want everyone to jump into the trees and pound the same bush as you? I'd rather have a mountain all to myself because most don't have the physical gumption that I may have. When I road hunt, I try to pick areas with less animals just so I'm not in that 'crowded' hunting situation. If I do find myself in a crowd, I make the most of it and use the other hunters to my advantage.

[Jelvis]

I guess region 3 will have some muley any buck hunters driving around, the region needs those hunters support and input.
Good time in Anybuck October in Reg 3 to get your first mule deer buckatoid.
Driving, walking or riding a bike you could C a forky or a spike buckaroo. Mule or white.
And late Oct moose, spike/fork with Mindy and Mork. Good time and place to save face
Newbies, veterans and some where in between will be singin and bringin home the bacon.
Jelly--ANY buckaroo will do in 3. October 1 on thru to the thirddy first, you'll qwench your thirst

[Sofa King]

True, that they currently act as a surrogates to replace natural primary productivity. False, that clearcuts create the same conditions as a fire does. The literature, vegetation plots, and my personal experience has shows fires to produce better habitat than clearcuts.

fires are oodles times better than clearcuts.
new growth is flourishing in no time after a fire.
and one can still walk through where a fire went through.
a clear-cut is an utter mess and virtually unwalkable.

[ru rancher]

No need to be angry as all hunters have every right to be there just like you. If is "Public" Crown land after all. I have seen numerous threads on here over the years where people bash on road hunters. Do you really want everyone to jump into the trees and pound the same bush as you? I'd rather have a mountain all to myself because most don't have the physical gumption that I may have. When I road hunt, I try to pick areas with less animals just so I'm not in that 'crowded' hunting situation. If I do find myself in a crowd, I make the most of it and use the other hunters to my advantage. sorry my fault buddy didnt read it over i tryed to say wouldnt say angry but discouraged im not angry that there out there just alittle discouraged and i never said i had more right then them just saying how i feel

[one-shot-wonder]

region 4 , Is the any buck in that region sustainable ?

In only some cases like 4-03 likely not after some of the recent flights but for the rest absolutely.

[aggiehunter]

longest GOS in North America...hmmmm...

[dana]

True, that they currently act as a surrogates to replace natural primary productivity. False, that clearcuts create the same conditions as a fire does. The literature, vegetation plots, and my personal experience has shows fires to produce better habitat than clearcuts.

Better until we go in and salvage the timber and plant trees again. A large portion of OK Mnt fire was Park. McLure say a lot of salvage logging, with trees planted in both the salvage areas and outside the salvage area. Forestry is a big part of our economy. We don't see fires left untouched very often as we need to get the land base back into rotation. The benefits of a burn are well known. Personally, I believe we should go back to broadcast burns on clearcuts and we would see more of an equal benefit to both wildlife and trees.

[hunter1993ap]

longest GOS in North America...hmmmm...

is that a complaint. I sure like the season the way we have it. I still think we have a sustainable season the way things are. habitat restoration is something im going to take the initiative this spring/summer to get involved.

[bridger]

should be a straight 4-point season everywhere inmo!!!

The peace country had a four point only season for 20 years that was politically driven. at the end there were so few 4 points left in the population that the bag limit was reduced to one 4pt every two years. In the meantime the rest of the population exploded to an all time high exceeding the carrying capacity of the winter ranges. Then came the winter of 2006/2007 and a 50% die off. More politics followed and a wide open antlerless season resulted in an over harvest we now havea mule deer population a shadow of its former self. Antler restrictions are at best a short term fix.

[ru rancher]

ya trees that have bin burnt in most cases are still good for lumber so they do salvage as much as they can i think though since they dont have branches the walking would still be alot easyer

[one-shot-wonder]

but I sure as shit prefer to hunt in less busy areas than have endless traffic roaring around.
who wouldn't?

Dont hunt between Merritt and Kelowna then...................problem solved.

[Jelvis]

How wood U like to go on a summer vacation from your house and home belongings and the gardens that R all grown to pick, and when you arrive back in winter time all burnt to the ground and you standin dare like a naked scarecrow. Nuttin, all gone
Wood you be saying hey, this is real good, I have less than nuttin honey, lost everything, no food, no wind protection, no hiding spot. Nuttin Honey, but you say yood like dat?
Jelly Woods, Get real, how wood this make U feel?

[snareman1234]

fires are oodles times better than clearcuts.
new growth is flourishing in no time after a fire.
and one can still walk through where a fire went through.
a clear-cut is an utter mess and virtually unwalkable.

Your ability to successfully stalk through an area has little to do with habitat quality...it can, at times, be inversely related..

[limit time]

fires are oodles times better than clearcuts.
new growth is flourishing in no time after a fire.
and one can still walk through where a fire went through.
a clear-cut is an utter mess and virtually unwalkable.
I noticed in you thread " falking dead" a lot of clear cuts in your pics.

[Sofa King]

No need to be angry as all hunters have every right to be there just like you. If is "Public" Crown land after all. I have seen numerous threads on here over the years where people bash on road hunters. Do you really want everyone to jump into the trees and pound the same bush as you? I'd rather have a mountain all to myself because most don't have the physical gumption that I may have. When I road hunt, I try to pick areas with less animals just so I'm not in that 'crowded' hunting situation. If I do find myself in a crowd, I make the most of it and use the other hunters to my advantage.

good point.
and I'm more than happy that they are zooming up and down the roads, even unwilling to stop and look at a fresh track.
I especially like your point about it being public land and we all have just as much right there.
it's those asshole road hunters that think the road belongs to them though that pisses me off.
they refuse to let someone who is in a hurry by them.
this happens several times every season to me.
for me, the road is only there to take me to my location that I've scouted.
and I want to get there as soon as I can, not take as absolutely humanly possible to get there.
I had an hour and a half before dark last week.
so I planned to run up and do a hike in and get my trailcam set up before it got dark.
very soon after leaving the pavement, I caught up to a guy going putt-putt up the road, staring off into the trees and taking his time.
and there's no hunting for the first many kilometers, as it's right alongside the highway.
I came up on him quick, showing that I'm in a hurry to continue on and I'm not road hunting.
I could see he wasn't going to let me by, he made a point of staying in the middle and not giving any passing room.
so I backed off just enough so as to not be right on his bumper, but still showing I'm wanting by.
and in no time, he's flipping the finger at me out the window.
he kept in the middle, even veering more to the other side and back every so often to show that he had no intent to let me by.
this went on for several kilometers before he finally pulled over and allowed me by.
it's these guys that piss me right off.
these guys give road hunters a bad name like poachers give hunters a bad name.

[ru rancher]

Your ability to successfully stalk through an area has little to do with habitat quality...it can, at times, be inversely related..
actually in can directly effect it think of it this way if a pile of deep branches are lieing there then plants cannot grow there this means a waste of space so if the ground is free of these obsticles that block plant life then this would increase the pruduction of the land go out into a fresh cut block and look at all the piles of sticks that block the sunlight from reaching the seeds and such in the dirt this i would think is the reason fires grow back faster then cut blocks

[dana]

I guess Dually has never hunted a 15 year old or older burn that has never seen Salvage Logging. Talk about Nasty hiking. Not much different than many Pine stands that haven't been logged. ;)

[Sofa King]

I noticed in you thread " falking dead" a lot of clear cuts in your pics.

yup.
and they are all full of whiteys.
not a muley to be found.
and this is where I used to come muley hunting and there was no whiteys.

[Sofa King]

I guess Dually has never hunted a 15 year old or older burn that has never seen Salvage Logging. Talk about Nasty hiking. Not much different than many Pine stands that haven't been logged. ;)

I was just comparing the ones that were mentioned, the Okanagan and mclure.
and the clearcuts that I'm finding everywhere that aren't cleaned anymore, but left with the broken/smashed wood covering every inch of ground.

[eastkoothunter]

It would be nice to see any buck closed down, just to see if it helps any. Its hard as all hell to even just see muley bucks anymore. There are a ton of ifs, and's, or but's that could be done or said to increase the deer population, but I think its a time thing. A point that was mentioned to me I never thought of was that its all a cycle. Deer/ungulate population goes up; predator population follows suite and increases; deer/ungulate population decrease; predator population follows suite again... And so on and so on. I thought it was an interesting idea, and not saying its right, but at this point who the hell knows whats right and whats wrong.

[dana]

actually in can directly effect it think of it this way if a pile of deep branches are lieing there then plants cannot grow there this means a waste of space so if the ground is free of these obsticles that block plant life then this would increase the pruduction of the land go out into a fresh cut block and look at all the piles of sticks that block the sunlight from reaching the seeds and such in the dirt this i would think is the reason fires grow back faster then cut blocks
Course Woody Debris. Best way to think of it is Food for soils and plants. It also can be Home for many small critters and birds. :)

[Wild one]

814 and 812 do not lack clear cuts so feed is not the issue in my opinion. Yes, there is wolves but nothing crazy. Have not seen an increase in cougar sign. Increase in pressure from new hunters coming to the area looking for WT does yes. A good number of mule deer bucks get taken by hunters looking for WT. In my opinion the area hass become bad for poaching. Seen guys nailed in a check stop with mule deer does, heard shots at night, locals telling me poach has increased, and even ran into some that bragged about it. This is a big issue for 812 & 814.

I still seem to see a good number of mule deer and don't see the need to do away with any buck. Increase in CO presents in the area would be good. Also don't run the WT doe season at the same time as any buck mule deer would ease some pressure.

4pt season useless

[snareman1234]

Folks,

Please review this "gentle overview" of the status of mule deer in our province.

http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-con...il-26-2012.pdf (http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kuzyk_Mule-Deer-BCWF-April-26-2012.pdf)

The best available science should be consulted before people begin to recommend management changes, sometimes based on anecdotal evidence. As many on here have stated before when people begin preaching about regulations - Hunter's trying to manage other hunters to increase their own success is a losing battle. Seek the root of the problem, talk to MLA's, voice your concern. Increasing burns, protection of winter range, more public acceptance of SEVERE predator control, will all create the herds of mule deer you are seeking. NOT fighting eachother on how many points a legal buck can have..

[Sofa King]

actually in can directly effect it think of it this way if a pile of deep branches are lieing there then plants cannot grow there this means a waste of space so if the ground is free of these obsticles that block plant life then this would increase the pruduction of the land go out into a fresh cut block and look at all the piles of sticks that block the sunlight from reaching the seeds and such in the dirt this i would think is the reason fires grow back faster then cut blocks

they do this apparently to put the nourishment from the decaying wood back into the ground.
that's what I was told.
how long is that expected to take?
just a couple years ago the practice was to go back in and clean a cut up after logging it.
was that not working?

[biggyun68]

Thank-you for posting the link: I contributed and glad we live in a democracy where we can have forums like these and the ability to put our 2 cents down about resource management:

[ru rancher]

It would be nice to see any buck closed down, just to see if it helps any. Its hard as all hell to even just see muley bucks anymore. There are a ton of ifs, and's, or but's that could be done or said to increase the deer population, but I think its a time thing. A point that was mentioned to me I never thought of was that its all a cycle. Deer/ungulate population goes up; predator population follows suite and increases; deer/ungulate population decrease; predator population follows suite again... And so on and so on. I thought it was an interesting idea, and not saying its right, but at this point who the hell knows whats right and whats wrong.
sure id say thats the way nature works but why i dont see that happening is because think of all the cattle out there once the deer and such are gone thats what the predators move to and this is why i feel predators need to be managed better there are other food sources for them out there so just cause most of the game is gone doesnt nessisarily mean all the predators will follow suit

[Jelvis]

I noticed that mule deer like it where I see pyramids of pine trees all shoved together into burn piles maybe a forty yards apart or so.
Maybe the tree to eat or the flat open space gets sunlight and the shrubs and grass grows.
On the forest floor with no more canopy. Add H2O and sun, Bim Bam Boom!
Yah see it every where from Tunkwa to Lilly Fart.
All dressed up for the late fall early and late winter early spring you can here that chainsaw ring. Fire starting and let her go, the forestry guys said give it a try.
Select logging or by horse is excellent of course, cuz a horse is a horse of course
Jelly Mister (Ed) the talking Horse

[coach]

I guess Dually has never hunted a 15 year old or older burn that has never seen Salvage Logging. Talk about Nasty hiking. Not much different than many Pine stands that haven't been logged. ;)

I think duallie's disdain for road hunters makes it clear he hasn't spent much time hiking more than a few hundred yards from his truck.

Our 10 year old burn may be great habitat but it's already extremely nasty hiking due to the blowdown. The regen is making great places for animals to hide but it's not hunter friendly. My suspicion is guys will see more tracks and less game and soon will be pushing for more restrictions because there's "no game left". Lmao

[one-shot-wonder]

yup.
and they are all full of whiteys.
not a muley to be found.
and this is where I used to come muley hunting and there was no whiteys.

So would you blame october any buck hunters on the "disappearance" of the mule deer or habitat transformation and apparent competetion with whitetails?

[ru rancher]

Course Woody Debris. Best way to think of it is Food for soils and plants. It also can be Home for many small critters and birds. :)
so yes there is a reason they leave them they do provide sources of food for the soil witch means in say 4 years the plants will be very abundant wich id say is roughly a third of a mule deers life i dont have an answer to do it better that wouldnt cost way to much money so i dont see the mass amount of debris in a cut block becoming less anytime soon necuase it does help the soil greatly in the longer run

[Sofa King]

I think duallie's disdain for road hunters makes it clear he hasn't spent much time hiking more than a few hundred yards from his truck.

Our 10 year old burn may be great habitat but it's already extremely nasty hiking due to the blowdown. The regen is making great places for animals to hide but it's not hunter friendly. My suspicion is guys will see more tracks and less game and soon will be pushing for more restrictions because there's "no game left". Lmao

how's that even make sense?
and if that makes it "clear" to you, you don't have much of an idea.

[eastkoothunter]

It's funny how an opinionated thread can turn into personal attacks. Sure doesn't take much on here anymore

[ru rancher]

i wouldnt say anyone is being attacked i have learned a good amount from this thread i feel talking in this manner sure spreads knowledge alot better then everyone being scared to challenge someones belifes

[coach]

Duallie, anyone who hunts away from roads needn't worry about road hunters. Those who bitch about them aren't hunting very far of the mains. Keep pushing for social management and our game populations really will be in trouble.

[Jelvis]

duallie sounds like a younger mid aged fella that luvs the outdoors and the wildlife, and dabbles into hunting deer.
Has a good imagination and knows his English pretty good, likes telling stories and entertaining other members who kinda see where he's going on posts in the threads.
I think he drives out into some closer areas to town and walks a bit, like others have suggested.
And like all of us he's learning more about hunting and deer habitat with legendary mule deer hunters like Dana and Horshur up the Nor River. It's all great stuff, I'm digging it and so are thousands of others around the world.
Jel .. We're nation wide.

[snareman1234]

so yes there is a reason they leave them they do provide sources of food for the soil witch means in say 4 years the plants will be very abundant wich id say is roughly a third of a mule deers life i dont have an answer to do it better that wouldnt cost way to much money so i dont see the mass amount of debris in a cut block becoming less anytime soon necuase it does help the soil greatly in the longer run

Decomposition of coarse woody debris (CWD) varies greatly by starting material, soil, elevation, climate, etc. Pair that with multiple different requirement for primary and secondary producers and you have an equation on your hands that does not have an answer that fits into a box. There is major plasticity. There is currently debate about the importance of CWD for ecosystems.... Regardless, I don't think you are going to figure out how to solve the CWD and mule deer issue in a night.... There is lots of reading on each topic by people who have dedicated their life to scientifically analyzing such phenomena (which is in stark contrast to some of the armchair wildlife managers of HBC)

[ru rancher]

Duallie, anyone who hunts away from roads needn't worry about road hunters. Those who bitch about them aren't hunting very far of the mains. Keep pushing for social management and our game populations really will be in trouble.
i belive we stated why we are not fond of road hunters and it has nothing to do with them hunting where we are or that we spend lots of time on the road maybe you should read the thread before you call someone out

[one-shot-wonder]

i wouldnt say anyone is being attacked i have learned a good amount from this thread i feel talking in this manner sure spreads knowledge alot better then everyone being scared to challenge someones belifes

It's good to see you participate, but I encourage you to search similar threads from the past, view the presentation I posted and read, and read some more. It's obvious you are learning, this is good but many on hear need to do the same and invest some time into reading. There is more the HBC than just horn porn and there is more to the intraweb than porn.

[f350ps]

It's funny how an opinionated thread can turn into personal attacks. Sure doesn't take much on here anymore
Hahaha, I'd say quite the contrary, 13 pages in on a good discussion so don't wreck it please! I love these threads, they are very informative! Ok, back on track. K

[ru rancher]

Decomposition of coarse woody debris (CWD) varies greatly by starting material, soil, elevation, climate, etc. Pair that with multiple different requirement for primary and secondary producers and you have an equation on your hands that does not have an answer that fits into a box. There is major plasticity. There is currently debate about the importance of CWD for ecosystems.... Regardless, I don't think you are going to figure out how to solve the CWD and mule deer issue in a night.... There is lots of reading on each topic by people who have dedicated their life to scientifically analyzing such phenomena (which is in stark contrast to some of the armchair wildlife managers of HBC)
never said i was an expert just going off what i have expirianced took about 3-4 years for the cut blocks i have expirianced to look good again sure iv saw cut blocks that still look awful around the same age but thats just due to the soil quality rather then the method of logging alot more gravely and rockey

[dana]

There is more the HBC than just horn porn and there is more to the intraweb than porn.

HaHaHa! :) :)

[ru rancher]

It's good to see you participate, but I encourage you to search similar threads from the past, view the presentation I posted and read, and read some more. It's obvious you are learning, this is good but many on hear need to do the same and invest some time into reading. There is more the HBC than just horn porn and there is more to the intraweb than porn.
to be completly honest i find it super difficult to search anything on this sight i like it when the topics keep circulating never know what new member might have to say on it and its hard for me at this time to dedicate time to just read a huge post rather then follow along on one in progress so maybe youve saw it all but us new memebers really havent so its nice to see the topics comeing up again

[snareman1234]

never said i was an expert just going off what i have expirianced took about 3-4 years for the cut blocks i have expirianced to look good again sure iv saw cut blocks that still look awful around the same age but thats just due to the soil quality rather then the method of logging alot more gravely and rockey

Totally. You are clearly a keen observer of nature. You are hunting with a "scientific" mind. If you pair your personal observations with some large-scale studies it may further ground your understanding, or, perhaps open up your mind to major plasticity in the system. Keep at it!

[knockturnal]

to be completly honest i find it super difficult to search anything on this sight i like it when the topics keep circulating never know what new member might have to say on it and its hard for me at this time to dedicate time to just read a huge post rather then follow along on one in progress so maybe youve saw it all but us new memebers really havent so its nice to see the topics comeing up again


I just read all 132 posts in this thread and I only have one thing to say. Can you please use punctuation?

[one-shot-wonder]

to be completly honest i find it super difficult to search anything on this sight i like it when the topics keep circulating never know what new member might have to say on it and its hard for me at this time to dedicate time to just read a huge post rather then follow along on one in progress so maybe youve saw it all but us new memebers really havent so its nice to see the topics comeing up again

Againg....glad you are gaining from 'the any buck experience' we have all be put through again tonight. I still encourage you to do some research and reading on your own. How do discuss wildlife management with fellow hunters or non hunters when you are not following a thread on HBC? lots of greating reading if one so chooses..........

[ru rancher]

I just read all 132 posts in this thread and I only have one thing to say. Can you please use punctuation?
oh frick keep quiet im at ubc in first year engineering im not under educated just never understud the whole punctuation thing to say the lest english class was the worst hour of my highschool life!!! hahaha sorry about that but nothing i can do about it

[coach]

to be completly honest i find it super difficult to search anything on this sight i like it when the topics keep circulating never know what new member might have to say on it and its hard for me at this time to dedicate time to just read a huge post rather then follow along on one in progress so maybe youve saw it all but us new memebers really havent so its nice to see the topics comeing up again

That's all good.. BUT.. These threads keep coming up again and again and again and the most knowledgeable people here, the ones who volunteer hundreds of hours per year to making a difference get sucked in to defending scientific management of wildlife. The debates go on and on and on.. We are fortunate that the guys who do dedicate their time continue to attempt to educate the rest of us. I fear the frustration of these debates will cause them to give up - leaving those pushing for social management in charge. The regulations proposal that started this thread is a perfect example.

[ru rancher]

Againg....glad you are gaining from 'the any buck experience' we have all be put through again tonight. I still encourage you to do some research and reading on your own. How do discuss wildlife management with fellow hunters or non hunters when you are not following a thread on HBC? lots of greating reading if one so chooses..........
seriously if your not happy with whats being posted tonight then log out and check back in a few hours maybe it will have changed dont put us down isnt this sight for discussing as well as reading?

[Sitkaspruce]

actually in can directly effect it think of it this way if a pile of deep branches are lieing there then plants cannot grow there this means a waste of space so if the ground is free of these obsticles that block plant life then this would increase the pruduction of the land go out into a fresh cut block and look at all the piles of sticks that block the sunlight from reaching the seeds and such in the dirt this i would think is the reason fires grow back faster then cut blocks


I was just comparing the ones that were mentioned, the Okanagan and mclure.
and the clearcuts that I'm finding everywhere that aren't cleaned anymore, but left with the broken/smashed wood covering every inch of ground.

As Dana said, Course Woody Debris.

i was involved in a study of leaving CWD vs broadcast burns to see what affect they had on a cut block.

Basically, the BCB gave the trees and and shrubs a great start, but after a time, between 10-20 years, the tree growth slowed down as the trees nutrients were less. Leaving CWD allows for a slow release of nutrients, those nutrients last longer and benifit the tree better over the long run. Also, to a certain state, CWD benefits muler deer in they they are perfectly set up with their stotting to go through the CWD where preds have a hard time getting through it, better for survival.

Another problem with BCB is you can get too hot a fire and it burns the soil, leaving it void of nutirents for a while. Most, if not all our wildfires are crown fires, with a slow cooler ground fire, that benefits the ground and plant life.

Downd fall of CWD is that some popular deer food plants need some heat to generate better and they need the competition gone, CWD does not allow for that.

The study was an on-going one and might still be on-going, my part in it was the burning part, but then they shut us down due to having too many over achievements.......

Fire and CB are bith good in there own way, deer love the edge affect and unless we have lazy ass layout crews that walk in 4 straight lines, cutblocks give us good edge affects.

Cheers

SS

[dana]

It seems a lot of us talk but very few actually listen when it comes to this topic. This dead horse keeps getting back up again. Every time you think you have beat it to death, it lays still for a month and then gets up and starts walking again. It is encouraging though that every now and then there is someone like RU that learns something, so I guess it is all worth it. :)

[ru rancher]

guys seriously if the thread doesnt interest you just dont read it isnt that common knowledge??????

[ru rancher]

It seems a lot of us talk but very few actually listen when it comes to this topic. This dead horse keeps getting back up again. Every time you think you have beat it to death, it lays still for a month and then gets up and starts walking again. It is encouraging though that every now and then there is someone like RU that learns something, so I guess it is all worth it. :)
thanks buddy ill take that in a good sense i wont bring it up again but someoe is bound to and when it does i will shair what i have learned and not complain about i just saw this post last month or last two months like some people seam to enjoy doing

[Fella]

I've enjoyed this thread and learned something new! Thanks to all who have provided the education. Who would have thought that science would make sense?

[dana]

As Dana said, Course Woody Debris.

i was involved in a study of leaving CWD vs broadcast burns to see what affect they had on a cut block.

Basically, the BCB gave the trees and and shrubs a great start, but after a time, between 10-20 years, the tree growth slowed down as the trees nutrients were less. Leaving CWD allows for a slow release of nutrients, those nutrients last longer and benifit the tree better over the long run. Also, to a certain state, CWD benefits muler deer in they they are perfectly set up with their stotting to go through the CWD where preds have a hard time getting through it, better for survival.

Another problem with BCB is you can get too hot a fire and it burns the soil, leaving it void of nutirents for a while. Most, if not all our wildfires are crown fires, with a slow cooler ground fire, that benefits the ground and plant life.

Downd fall of CWD is that some popular deer food plants need some heat to generate better and they need the competition gone, CWD does not allow for that.

The study was an on-going one and might still be on-going, my part in it was the burning part, but then they shut us down due to having too many over achievements.......

Fire and CB are bith good in there own way, deer love the edge affect and unless we have lazy ass layout crews that walk in 4 straight lines, cutblocks give us good edge affects.

Cheers

SS

As an aging lazy layout guy, I find old blocks that were broadcast burned way easier to hike through to get to the timber on the other side. So I am indeed biased. :)

[RiverOtter]

Better until we go in and salvage the timber and plant trees again. A large portion of OK Mnt fire was Park. McLure say a lot of salvage logging, with trees planted in both the salvage areas and outside the salvage area. Forestry is a big part of our economy. We don't see fires left untouched very often as we need to get the land base back into rotation. The benefits of a burn are well known. Personally, I believe we should go back to broadcast burns on clearcuts and we would see more of an equal benefit to both wildlife and trees.
Having spent a bit of time in Silviculture, the reason they went away from broadcast burning was it released most of the nutrients all at once. Long story short, the seedlings grew rapidly at the beginning, along with weeds and shrubs, then starved for nutrients. Coarse woody debris spreads out the nutrient "fertilization" as it decays, thus balancing growth/survival. An untouched burn works similarly, as a lot of the fire killed trees remain standing, until they eventually rot and return to the soil.

[one-shot-wonder]

RU punctuation.....enough flappin your pissing off the guys trying to help by contributing to this thread.
my last 2 pieces of advise for the night..........
1) look up "MULW deer" on the search function
2) pay attention in english......it is the most overlooked class you will take in Engineering............trust me.

[RiverOtter]

Sorry Sitka, I was typing at the same time.......:)

[snareman1234]

To all-

Scientific literature can be daunting...Here is a website that reviews the effect of various mule deer management strategies and their associated affect on mule deer populations.

IF you read to HERE, you can CERTAINLY find time to look at this..

http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/online%20version/muledeerinthewest/harvest.html

[Rattler]

Folks,

Please review this "gentle overview" of the status of mule deer in our province.

http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-con...il-26-2012.pdf (http://peachlandsportsmens.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kuzyk_Mule-Deer-BCWF-April-26-2012.pdf)

The best available science should be consulted before people begin to recommend management changes, sometimes based on anecdotal evidence. As many on here have stated before when people begin preaching about regulations - Hunter's trying to manage other hunters to increase their own success is a losing battle. Seek the root of the problem, talk to MLA's, voice your concern. Increasing burns, protection of winter range, more public acceptance of SEVERE predator control, will all create the herds of mule deer you are seeking. NOT fighting eachother on how many points a legal buck can have..


Well said Snareman, couldn't agree more...

[ru rancher]

RU punctuation.....enough flappin your pissing off the guys trying to help by contributing to this thread.
my last 2 pieces of advise for the night..........
1) look up "MULW deer" on the search function
2) pay attention in english......it is the most overlooked class you will take in Engineering............trust me.
hahah thanks to late now but maybe in my next life got my exam tomorrow! and alright if i remeber to do it tomorrow ill look up that thread and i may piss people off sometimes but eh whats life without alittle fun ;) but thanks for the help from everyone iv enjoyed the night

[dana]

Having spent a bit of time in Silviculture, the reason they went away from broadcast burning was it released most of the nutrients all at once. Long story short, the seedlings grew rapidly at the beginning, along with weeds and shrubs, then starved for nutrients. Coarse woody debris spreads out the nutrient "fertilization" as it decays, thus balancing growth/survival. An untouched burn works similarly, as a lot of the fire killed trees remain standing, until they eventually rot and return to the soil.

Have seen the good and the bad from both sides. I've been playing in the trees for a long time. :)

[Salty]

It seems a lot of us talk but very few actually listen when it comes to this topic. This dead horse keeps getting back up again. Every time you think you have beat it to death, it lays still for a month and then gets up and starts walking again.

dana, that's because that trying to teach something to someone that takes their first thought on an issue and then locks their mind up is akin to pushing on a rope! Or maybe they just like to argue nonsense? I dunno. Just hoping that the right thing happens and they listen to advice of the best bios and not the delusional with more 4 points dancing in their head, and leave the any buck season alone.

[Gateholio]

I can't believe the MOE even entertains these ridiculous deer management schemes. I guess the guys that keep proposing this shit are just too dense to learn anything.

[Argali]

Does anyone else find it strange that suddenly the mule deer population in 8-12 to 8-15 is considered too low to support an any-buck season, yet earlier this year the population was considered high enough to issue LEH tags for anterless mule deer in 8-12, 8-14, 8-15?
Units 8-12 and 8-14 were issued 40 LEH tags each, more than any other OK unit except 8-1 which received 45.

[GoatGuy]

There's a vocal minority of hunters who have spent a lifetime regulating other hunters instead of trying to increase wildlife populations. The effects are starting to come home to roost. Declining wildlife populations in many parts, 50% declines in moose in Regions 3,5,7a, declining mule deer across many areas are all a symptom of hunters spending a lifetime worrying about regulations instead of wildlife. Some people genuinely believe the reg changes will drive change, but unfortunately we have 40+ years of history that says they don't. The regulation approach does not work!

Antler/point restrictions for deer have been tried all over North America. Alberta, Colorado, Montana, Washington State, Oregon and even BC have all tried them.

Antler/point regulations for deer don't:

1) Make more deer
2) Make bigger deer


There isn't a credible biologist or researcher in BC who believes this will change anything - it is setup to placate a group of people who are either ignorant or concerned with their own hunting, not wildlife.

Hunters come out of the woodwork to sign a petition to get rid of an any buck season instead of trying to increase funding, enhance habitat and get serious about predator management. Really? Is that how we're going to drive positive change for wildlife populations when we have HUGE issues to deal with in BC? Don't worry about the highways, wildlife exclusion fences, wolves, habitat destruction and degradation, ingrowth, - not a big deal - what's important is whether that mule deer had 3 or 4 pts. To be honest the majority of biologists are generally appalled by hunters approach to these sorts of issues. The science on this is very clear - if you want more mule deer you need to do it through habitat - you have to actually advocate for the resource instead of trying to reduce other hunters opportunity.

Generally a very sad day for wildlife management in BC - we are failing our responsibility to manage the resource for abundant wildlife.

[snareman1234]

Amen. Spot on GG.

[Weatherby Fan]

Amen. Spot on GG.

X2 thank you GG, hopefully this will not fall on deaf ears,is there an address to respond via email or mail to this silly proposal.
hopefully enough hunters will write a concerning letter in a diplomatic fashion to nix this proposal.

[ruttinbuck]

Amen. Spot on GG.
X3 well said RB

[Jelvis]

I told yah b4 and I'll tell you again, this province is going towards total LEH
LEH to keep total control and have a accurate account of the animals hunted.
For better management tools, and spreading the hunters around the province.
I read years ago when the first LEH came out in PG because they closed the cows one season and it was bull moose only, and the big older breeding bulls were gone.
Then came LEH in about ah 1980's I think.
I read soon after that BC was going like the States, all LEH and auctions.
And today wah la, many LEH and more coming.
I like it myself, I think all animals should be LEH period. Let the control be to the pro's
Make way more money for the fish and wildlife and make it a fun thing like gambling.
I know your ready to kill me but imho it will happen, maybe not for ten years or so.
Jel .. You can see LEH is very popular and fun to apply for and wait, like Christmas time.

[coach]

Sure Jel... Sure...

[604redneck]

very bad idea this ensures all bad gentics bucks to survuve unless taken by the environment even if the doe has half the genetics they will get weeker in time
this is 100% correct! but there are too many shitty hunters out there that whine alot cause they cant kill a buck so they figure the population is down.....

[GoatGuy]

I told yah b4 and I'll tell you again, this province is going towards total LEH
LEH to keep total control and have a accurate account of the animals hunted.
For better management tools, and spreading the hunters around the province.
I read years ago when the first LEH came out in PG because they closed the cows one season and it was bull moose only, and the big older breeding bulls were gone.
Then came LEH in about ah 1980's I think.
I read soon after that BC was going like the States, all LEH and auctions.
And today wah la, many LEH and more coming.
I like it myself, I think all animals should be LEH period. Let the control be to the pro's
Make way more money for the fish and wildlife and make it a fun thing like gambling.
I know your ready to kill me but imho it will happen, maybe not for ten years or so.
Jel .. You can see LEH is very popular and fun to apply for and wait, like Christmas time.

Mr. Anti-science becomes Mr.Science. Use it when you think it works to rationalize your argument, disregard it when it doesn't.

Entertaining, if nothing else.

The 'flat earth society' is looking for members.

[Jagermeister]

However you view this proposal, you do have the opportunity to respond to it. The closing date is Dec. 13, 2013, so fly at it.
A few things I want to point out.
In Kuzyk's report, it is stated,
• high harvest of cougars did not influence mule deer survival rates due to rapid infill on immigrating cougars

I don't entirely agree with this statement. The south Okanagan, Boundary and Similkemeen areas had a low MDs population in the late 40's and early 50s while the cougar population was at an all time high. When cougars started preying on ranging cattle, the government instituted a $200/cougar bounty, an astronomical amount for that time period. It was effective and the MD population rebounded by the early 60's.
Whitetail deer were not that abundant as they are now. They may be a twofold factor; first, the presence of the parasite Parelaphostrongylus tenuis (also known as meningeal worm, brainworm) which has a greater negative and potential life threatening affect on the other ungulates, especially mule deer; and second, the whitetail bucks more agressive nature when it comes to the rut. They will drive mule deer bucks off mule deer does in estrus, hence, non-producing hybrids.
The degradation of mature fir stands that are the prime wintering areas, whether harvesting or thinning, is detrimental no matter how you look at it. The MD rely on the canopy that these large trees create and for the mossy browse that they pull from the lower branches.
Reforestation after deforestation: Let's face it, there is no way that the replant rate can come anywhere near the harvest rate. Last report that I read on the replant said that it would take 1300 years to complete at the rate they were planting at that present time and that report is now several years old.
I said 1300 years, consider that a forest that the natural evolvution or a forest from fireweed to mature fir trees takes about 400-500 years. It would be beneficial to expedite that with controlled burns in clearcuts that have good soil structure. Plant the seedlings in areas of marginal soild structure so that they can take advantage of the slow release of nutrients. Those areas that are the result of hot fires like McClure and Okanagan mountain should be replanted.
I agree that the proposal is flawed and is presented with the sole purpose of placating a few. If enough people respond in opposition, I think that MOE would be more than willing to drop it.
Remember you have until a week this Friday to present your opinion whatever that may be.

[6616]

When you consider that it's biologists that put up these proposals (under pressure from hunters) and even admit they do it in some cases to make it look like they're "doing something", I'd say there's something wrong with the public consultation system. Biologists should be left alone to do their jobs which is not happening in BC. Public consultation which is driving non-scientific, emotional, and inappropriate regulations needs to be curtailed.

[Jagermeister]

It is pretty frustrating for the biologists when they are playing second fiddle to those in forestry. Then suck it up from some malcontent hunters. Probably very discouraging.

[adriaticum]

The only thing that will help mule deer populations is people having less babies and BC population drop. Everything else is just politics.

[limit time]

I told yah b4 and I'll tell you again, this province is going towards total LEH
LEH to keep total control and have a accurate account of the animals hunted.
For better management tools, and spreading the hunters around the province.
I read years ago when the first LEH came out in PG because they closed the cows one season and it was bull moose only, and the big older breeding bulls were gone.
Then came LEH in about ah 1980's I think.
I read soon after that BC was going like the States, all LEH and auctions.
And today wah la, many LEH and more coming.
I like it myself, I think all animals should be LEH period. Let the control be to the pro's
Make way more money for the fish and wildlife and make it a fun thing like gambling.
I know your ready to kill me but imho it will happen, maybe not for ten years or so.
Jel .. You can see LEH is very popular and fun to apply for and wait, like Christmas time.
First, you need to hunt...

[hunter1947]

What I don't get is how does anybody know the difference between bad genetics or good ??? when you look at a spike fork deer how can you determine if it has a good jean pool or not :confused:..

[Walksalot]

When I hear people talking about logging practices and the benefits there of I have to ask the question"Is not the timber to hide in just as or more important"? The logging I see going on in 8-09 is criminal. One stand which was slated to be cut is predominately fir and larch. I was relieved, upon recent discussions with the logging company, to hear that it was put on the back burner. Voicing my concern to the local wildlife biologist I was told they have no say in what the logging companies are doing in our forest. How the hell can we have a responsible wildlife management strategy when the sector of government which is supposed to fine tune and implement this strategy has no input as to what logging companies are doing on in the forest!!!!

[ru rancher]

When I hear people talking about logging practices and the benefits there of I have to ask the question"Is not the timber to hide in just as or more important"? The logging I see going on in 8-09 is criminal. One stand which was slated to be cut is predominately fir and larch. I was relieved, upon recent discussions with the logging company, to hear that it was put on the back burner. Voicing my concern to the local wildlife biologist I was told they have no say in what the logging companies are doing in our forest. How the hell can we have a responsible wildlife management strategy when the sector of government which is supposed to fine tune and implement this strategy has no input as to what logging companies are doing on in the forest!!!!
well sure the trees help to hide but mule deer live fine out in the prairies dont they with just a couple patches of trees for wind breakers right?

[GoatGuy]

One other little tidbit about this issue.

80% of the any buck harvest is from people who live in Region 4.

[325]

What I don't get is how does anybody know the difference between bad genetics or good ??? when you look at a spike fork deer how can you determine if it has a good jean pool or not :confused:..


Exactly! For some reason, many hunters think a small antlered buck has "bad" genetics" and a large antlered buck has "good" genetics. In fact the small buck, if allowed to live until maturity, may be a record-class buck.
"Trophy" hunters are not hunting bucks with a certain genetic profile, but rather bucks of a certain age class.

[GoatGuy]

Exactly! For some reason, many hunters think a small antlered buck has "bad" genetics" and a large antlered buck has "good" genetics. In fact the small buck, if allowed to live until maturity, may be a record-class buck.
"Trophy" hunters are not hunting bucks with a certain genetic profile, but rather bucks of a certain age class.

The concern with genetics is that a 4 pt season focuses all of the harvest on 4 pts, so all the yearling bucks that reach 4 pts will get shot. Oppositely, the bucks that are only 2 or 3 pts and never get to be 4 pts are protected by 4 pts season. Because a 4 pt season often results in a harvest of almost every 4 pt you end up with older 2 and 3 pt bucks doing a significant amount of breeding.

At the end of the day, you will end up with a less genetically diverse population than from a harvest across the entire male component.

[325]

The concern with genetics is that a 4 pt season focuses all of the harvest on 4 pts, so all the yearling bucks that reach 4 pts will get shot. Oppositely, the bucks that are only 2 or 3 pts and never get to be 4 pts are protected by 4 pts season. Because a 4 pt season often results in a harvest of almost every 4 pt you end up with older 2 and 3 pt bucks doing a significant amount of breeding.

At the end of the day, you will end up with a less genetically diverse population than from a harvest across the entire male component.

Can you please direct me to the source of your information? I would love to read it!

[GoatGuy]

Can you please direct me to the source of your information? I would love to read it!

Ballard, J. 2008. Making a point. Wyoming Wildlife LXXI(3):34-39. [“…the Mule Deer Working Group of the Western Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies has little positive data to report from its analysis of antler point restrictions.” “Antler point restrictions do not produce more deer or larger-antlered deer.”]

Barsness, J. 1997. Twilight for the gray deer? Field & Stream Dec:53-58. [Trophy management has several costs: (1) lost hunter opportunity, (2) wasted dead deer, and (3) cheapened live deer. Idaho biologist Lon Kuck says “I’d rather puke in my hand than use point restrictions.”]

Baxter, D., D. Harmel, W.E. Armstrong and G. Butts. 1977. Spikes vs. forked-antlered bucks. Texas Parks & Wildlife, Mar:6-8. [“deer which were spikes as yearlings developed inferior antlers at 2.5 and 3.5 years as compared to the ones which were fork-antlered as yearlings.”]

Bender, L.C. and P.J. Miller. 1999. Effects of elk harvest strategy on bull demographics and herd composition. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 27(4):1032-1037. [“3-pt strategies allowed greater yearling survivorship and consequently slightly increased bull:cow ratios compared to the any-bull strategy, but did not increase survivorship into older age classes.]

Bender, L.C., P.E. Fowler, J.A. Bernatowicz, J.L. Musser, and L.E. Steam. 2002. Effects of open-entry spike-bull, limited-entry branched-bull harvesting on elk composition in Washington. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 30(4):1078-1084. [Proportion of branch-antlered increased, but calf production was unaffected under limited-entry hunting.]

Biederbeck, H.H., M.C. Boulay, and D.H. Jackson. 2001. Effects of hunting regulations on bull elk survival and age structure. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 29(4):1271-1277. [“bull escapement and proportion of bulls killed when first legally available for harvest did not differ under any-bull and minimum-point regulations.”]

Bitler, Craig. 2006. Antler restrictions: the science behind the idea. Deer & Deer Hunting 29(9):44-46,50,52. Aug. [Mortality became focused on mature bucks and illegal kills increased. “It is evident that APRs have a long, but not particularly distinguished history in the western United States.”]

Boyd, R.J. and J.F. Lipscomb. 1976. An evaluation of yearling bull elk hunting restrictions in Colorado. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 4(1):3-10. [4-points on one antler focused pressure on older bulls and resulted in “largest number of abandoned bulls ever reported” and decreased total annual harvest].


California Department of Fish and Game. 1994. California deer management. Antler restrictions: do they really work? California Hunter 3(3):32-33. [“Antler point restrictions…have a damping effect on producing or maintaining trophy bucks…” 12 of 14 Western states no longer have point restrictions as of 1994].

Carpenter, L.H. and R.B. Gill. 1987. Antler point regulations: the good, the bad, and the ugly. Proc. Western Assoc. Fish & Wildl. Agencies 67:94-107. [“An interesting irony of APRs is that hunting pressure is greatest on the segment of the herd that the regulation was designed to ‘produce’… The ugly of APRs for deer is that they are likely to be quite costly in wasted animals and discouraged hunters.”]

Casscles, K.M., B. Wilson and H. Jacobson. 1991. Effects of restricted harvest on a public hunting area. Miss. State Univ. Abstract. Southeast Deer Study Group. Baton Rouge, LA. [After 12 years of restrictive harvests, data indicates “there has been little change in the male age structure, and examination of reproductive data suggests no change in the periodicity of the rut.”]

Causey, M.K. and H.L. Stribling. 1991. Quality deer management: A case study of negative results. Auburn University. Abstract. 14th Southeast Deer Study Group. Baton Rouge, LA. [Alabama study, 1984-90: “None of the positive changes in deer quality as indicated by body and antler size has been observed since initiation of the (restrictive buck, liberal antlerless) harvest strategy.”]

Collier, B.A. 2004. Evaluating impact of selective harvest management on age structure and sex ratio of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) in Arkansas. PhD Dissert. University of Arkansas. 189pp. [The use of antler restrictions (3-points on a side) were expected to shift male survivorship into older age classes. "My results indicated that those shifts were canceled out by increased selectivity of sub-adults under current regulations (and possibly high quality yearlings), allowing no more males to reach mature (>3.5 year old) age classes than under historical regulations." ]

Cook, Gary. 1999. The irony of trophy deer management. Bow and Arrow Hunting. Aug:26-27. [“our hunting heritage lies not in the production of trophies…never has the purpose been to restrict hunter opportunity over large geographic areas.”]

Crawford, Andy. 2005. 6-point experiment set to expire, less than booming success. Louisiana Sportsman 25(2):12-14 (Feb). [The 3-year experiment did not result in significantly larger deer or antlers, but did result in fewer bucks being harvested. Biologist Dave Moreland said, "he believes the results of the 6-point experiment highlighted problems with antler restrictions…his preference would be to implement other management practices" (habitat management, herd control).]

DeBoer, S.G., et al. 1948. Jackson County deer survey. Wis. Conserv. Bull. XIII(5):3-4. [7 of 22 illegal kills found were spike bucks during fork-buck season. Ed. Note: WI discontinued forked-only buck seasons in 1956.]

[Walksalot]

well sure the trees help to hide but mule deer live fine out in the prairies dont they with just a couple patches of trees for wind breakers right?

The amount of logging and the access that the roads create is detrimental to the well being of the ungulates in our area.

[GoatGuy]

Demarais, S. and B. Strickland. 2003. “4-point” regulation subject of wildlife study. Mississippi State University – www.cfr.msstate.edu/fwrc/wildlife/4point.htm (http://www.cfr.msstate.edu/fwrc/wildlife/4point.htm) [“four-point rule caused antler size for specific age classes to decline”. On genetic effects they said: "The proportion of smaller antlered, older males that are protected with SHCs should be minimized because heritability estimates for antler characteristics in this age category are high and therefore gene frequencies for a particular antler trait could be shifted in successive generations."]

Demarais, S., B.K. Strickland, and L.E. Castle. 2005. Antler regulation effects on white-tailed deer on Mississippi public hunting areas. Proc. Annu. Conf. Southeast. Assoc. Fish and Wildlife Agencies 59:1-9. [A 4-point restriction resulted in reducing total buck harvest by 42% and antler size decreased within cohorts. “Antler restrictions should be considered a short-term solution to age-structure problems because of the potential negative biological effects.”]

DeYoung, C.A. 1989. Mortality of adult male white-tailed deer in south Texas. J. Wildl. Manage. 53(3):513-523. [“These data show that managing for mature males can be inefficient because 25-29% of males/year will die before reaching mature age.” That is, only 36-42% of yearlings will survive to age 4 if not harvested sooner.]

DeYoung, R.W., S. Demarais, R.L. Honeycutt, K.L. Gee, R.A. Gonzales. 2006. Social dominance and male breeding success in captive white-tailed deer. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 34(1):131-136. [“Although dominant males sired most offspring, subordinates sired offspring in 5 of 6 trials”… “dominance ranks were not necessarily predictable or stable during the breeding season.”

Ditchkoff, S.S., E.R. Welch, Jr., R.L. Lochmiller, R.E. Masters and W.R. Starry. 2001. Age-specific causes of mortality among male white-tailed deer support mate-competition theory. J. Wildl. Manage. 65(3):552-559. [“males >3.5 years old tended to die from non-human causes (e.g., fighting, predation) more frequently than did younger deer.”]

Durkin, P. 2004. Buck or Doe? Antler restrictions spell conservation. Antler restrictions spell controversy. American Hunter 32(2):28-32. (Feb). [Evaluations of ARs in PA may cut new ground in the East. Gary Alt says that the paramount goal “is to steer them [hunters] onto the greater mission of getting deer in line with their habitat.”]

Easton, J.J. 2002. Is the 4-point rule working? Mississippi Game & Fish Magazine. December? www.mississippigameandfish.com (http://www.mississippigame/) [“…over-all quality of harvested bucks within age-classes is going down.]

Ellis, Kevin. 1990. Why antler restrictions didn’t work. Terrestrial Resources. Nov:44-51.

[B]Erickson, G.L., J.R. Heffelfinger and J.H. Ellenberger. 2003. Potential effects of hunting and hunt structure on mule deer abundance and demographics. Chapter 4 in deVos, Jr., J.C., M.R. Conover and N.E. Headrick (eds.). Mule deer conservation: issues and management strategies. Berryman Inst. Press, Utah State Univ., Logan. [This review concludes that, “APRs have been tried in most western states, but have failed to produce the desired results despite their popularity with the public.” Downsides of APRs included reduced harvest and increased illegal kill of bucks. An alternative for allowing more mature bucks in the herd is limited license sales.]

Gasson. W. 1986. Quality deer. Wyoming Wildl. XLX(9):6-13. [WY hunters report, “seeing ‘trophy’ deer was number 31 on their list of 42 most important hunting experiences. The most over-rated and least understood “quality” regulation is the “4-point or better” rule.]

Geist, V. 1997. On mule deer management. Mule Deer. Spring:11-14. [“keep the process of mule deer management public, transparent, and open…protect mule deer from private whims and management for marketable values.”]

Goldstein, Micah. 1994. Reflections from Dooley County. Quality Whitetails Summer-Fall:33. [Micah reports early enthusiasm from hunter for 15-inch beam spread restriction. Personal communication with Micah revealed that Dooley County has 158 sq.mi of deer habitat and about 1,000 hunters. If all hunted on the same day, there would be about 6 hunters/sq.mi; rather exclusive hunting by Midwestern standards!]

Harju, H. and W. Gasson. 1984. Spikes excluded elk seasons - effects on antlered elk harvest and hunter numbers. Intra-dep. Memo. Wyoming Game and Fish Dep. 6pp. [Spikes-excluded elk seasons “do not increase numbers of bulls in the population, nor do they increase the number of older bulls in the population. In fact, …there are fewer older, mature bulls in the population.”]

Harju, H. 1989. The "4-point or better" controversy. Wyoming Landowner Newsletter 4(2):1-2. [“When hunting pressure is concentrated on old animals, fewer deer have the chance to become really big than if hunting pressure were spread out across all age classes in the herd. Antler point restrictions have resulted in wasted game.”]

Heffelfinger, J. 2001. Are trophy hunters draining the gene pool? Can hunting cause a long-term decline in the quality of a deer herd? Mule Deer. Summer:17-20. [Some allege that harvesting mature bucks allows smaller bucks to pass on inferior genes. But, no “antler gene” has yet been identified and females have as much to do with antler quality as do bucks. “The gene pool of a population is extremely diverse and constantly changing in response to an infinite number of environmental variables.”]

Hellickson, M.W. 1996. Don’t shoot spikes! Trophy Magazine 2(1):42-45. Jan/Feb. [Radio-tagging study in south Texas found that 54% of bucks will die of natural causes by age 5. Shooting spikes prematurely depletes buck pool and spikes have the potential to be a future B&C. Mickey recommends that phenotypic culling not begin until age 3.5. After age 7.5, natural mortality more than rates tripled.]

Hellickson, M.W. 1998. Nature takes a toll on old bucks. Deer & Deer Hunting 22(4):72-80. [His Texas study indicated that 71% of buck fawns died of natural causes before “maturing” to age 5.5.]

Hernbrode, B. 1987. Elk harvest management: meeting the challenge of quantity and quality. Proc. Western Assoc. of Game and Fish Comm. 67:88-93. [They increased diversity of hunting experiences by adding quality elk areas. They limited elk licenses and eliminated antler restrictions. "By making all bulls legal, some hunters invariably will choose to take a yearling, thus allowing more mature bulls to actually reach older age."]

Hughbanks, D.L. and L.R. Irby. 1993. Evaluation of a spike-only regulation in southeast Idaho. Pages 45-49 in J.D. Cada, J.P. Peterson and T.N. Lonner, compilers. Proc. Western States and Provinces Elk Workshop. Montana Dep. Fish, Wildl., and Parks.

Jense, G. 1990. Three-point hunt strategy in Utah. Utah Div. Wildl. Intra-dep. Report to Utah Board of Big Game Control. 11pp. Mimeogr. [“Although preliminary data indicated that antler-point regulations did not work well, the regulation grew in popularity with the public… The regulation resulted in “an inordinate amount of illegal loss of sublegal bucks…and additive hunting pressure on older age classes of bucks.” APRs “do not work for managing deer under average field conditions with high hunter pressure and less than 40% hunter success.”]

Johnson, F.W. 1939. Deer kill records – a guide to management of deer hunting. California Fish and Game 25(2). [The forked-horn antler restriction “was ineffective in preserving quality of deer crop under heavy hunting effort.” Ed. Note: probably 1st remark of this sort in American literature.]

Lockwood, M.A., D. B. Frels JR., W.E. Armstrong, E. Fuchs and D.E. Harmel. 2007. Genetic and environmental interaction in white-tailed deer. J. Wildl. Manage. 71(8):2732-2735. [Though designed to improve antler development, this study carries a warning of high grading when using antler point restrictions. “…this study clearly demonstrated that phenotypic change within a white-tailed deer population can occur with intensive selection of yearling sires.”]

Kerasote, T. 1998. A different kind of record book. Mule Deer. Fall:9-11. [Record books that include hunters’ names tend “to produce good ends for the wrong reasons.” “We need to shift from a record book of trophies to ‘a Record Book of Habitat Conservation’ to list those that have done the most to save wildlife range.”]

[GoatGuy]

Koerth, B.H. and J.C. Kroll. 2007. Juvenile-to-adult antler development in white-tailed deer in south Texas. J. Wildl. Manage. 72(5):1109-1113. [“By 4.5 years of age there were no differences (P>0.05) in antler measurements regardless of the amount of development of the first set of antlers at 1.5 years.” ]

Kufeld, R.C. 1994. Antler point restrictions. Page 341 in Deer. Stackpole Books. Harrisburg. [APRs began in CA, CO, OR, UT, and WY in late-1980s. APRs “not only failed to increase the proportion of prime-age bucks but also could harm the herd in general.”]

Mayer, K. 1998. Can antler restrictions produce bigger bucks? Deer & Deer Hunting 22(1):111-112.

[B]McCaffery, K.R. 1997. QDM: Does this trend threaten deer hunting and management? Deer & Deer Hunting 21(4):129-131. Nov. [Mandated rules to change sex and age ratios of deer involve license limits or antler restrictions. Few hunters want to sacrifice hunting opportunity and antler restrictions can virtually wipe out mature bucks.]

McCaffery, K.R. 2002. A closer look at traditional deer management. Whitetails Unlimited Mag. Fall:33-40. [Traditional management allows hunters to hunt every year for the entire season and in the area they choose. Point restrictions focus mortality on mature bucks, protect only smallest-antlered deer, cause higher levels of accidental-illegal kill, pose penalty problems, and do not result in ‘natural’ sex and age structures.”]

McCaffery, K.R. 2003. The problems with QDM in the Midwest. Deer and Deer Hunting 27(3):124-125. Oct. [Many QDM programs are being sold using off-center and misleading biology. Privatized deer management is being promoted at the risk of public hunting and the North American Model of wildlife conservation.]

McCaffery, K.R. 2003. Points of debate: Antler restrictions. Wisconsin Outdoor J. 18(6):14-17. [After decades of use in Western states, evaluations of antler restrictions report disappointing results. It is better to maintain herd sizes well below maximum carrying capacity if concerned about herd sex and age ratios and antler development.]

McCaffery, K.R. 2005. You can't eat the 'horns.' Deer & Deer Hunting 28(7):45. ["…if we were truly seeking a natural sex and age ratio, we would be focusing our harvest mortality on the fawns of the year." "Food has been the foundation for hunting since the ascent of man. We don't eat the antlers." Other motives for hunting invite criticism.]

McCaffery, K.R. 2005. Antler restrictions: the “new” fad? Whitetales Fall:20-21. Minnesota Deer Hunters Assoc. [“APRs seem popular among some hunters, but I wonder if they understand the consequences of APRs. Most biologists are not enthusiastic about mandatory antler restrictions.”]

McCorquodale, Scott. 1991. Biased sex ratios and spike-only herds: products of open bull hunting? Bugle (winter):11-19. [Point restrictions tend to shift harvest from yearlings to 2-year-old bulls, but “the proportions of bulls at least 4 years old are nearly the same in open bull and branched-antler units.”]

McKean, Andrew. 2008. New world record elk? Part II. <http://www.outdoorlife. Com/articles/hunting/2008/10/new-world-record-record-elk-part-ii>. [“Spider Bull” scored 500 inches but was taken by hunter after investing $170,000 for a “Governor’s Tag” in Utah. Author puts up flag of privatization and commercialization on public land and concludes, “you are seeing an animal produced by serial exclusivity, not by the American tradition of equal access for all.]

Miller, S.E. 1992. 1992 public attitude survey. Wildlife Inservice Note 664. Ohio Dep. Nat. Resour., Div. Wildl. Columbus. 15pp. [83% of respondents supported hunting for food, while only 10% approved of trophy hunting.]

Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. 1991. Constituent inventory: What Minnesotans think about hunting, fishing, and native plant management. St. Paul, MN. Unpubl. Rep. [84% of respondents supported meathunting, but only 6% supported trophy hunting.]

Mohler, L.L. and D.E. Toweill. 1982. Regulated elk populations and hunter harvests. Pages 561-597 in J.W. Thomas and D.E. Toweill (eds). Elk of North America: ecology and management. Stackpole. Harrisburg. 698pp. [Mainly cite from Boyd and Lipscomb (1976). Modeling indicated 4-pt restriction resulted in trade-off of 3.9 non-trophy elk for each trophy elk produced.]

Moreland, D.W., A. Vidrine and L. Savage. 1999. Mandatory QDM regulations—A parade to mediocrity. Louisiana Dep. Wildl. and Fish. Page 17 in Abstracts 22nd Southeast Deer Study Group. Fayetteville, Arkansas. 70pp. [Mandatory statewide rules remove options from biologists. Antler restrictions protect only smallest antlered deer. “Harvest data from Louisiana clubs…suggest that these small yearling bucks do not catch up and develop into the quality bucks that hunters really desire.”]

Nelson, M.E. and L.D. Mech. 1986. Mortality of white-tailed deer in northeastern Minnesota. J. Wildl. Manage. 50(4):691-698. [“Yearling males were more vulnerable to hunting…but adult males …are more predisposed to predation.”]

[GoatGuy]

Phippen, W. 1996. The mule deer dilemma. Montana Outdoors 27(5):19-22. [“Point-restriction seasons focus all the hunting pressure on larger bucks…illegal harvest of smaller bucks tends to be a problem.”]

Pyshora, L. 1979. California’s first quota buck hunt. Californa Fish and Game. Intra-Dep. Rep. 4pp. Mimeogr. [A 3-point on one antler restriction established in 1963 seemed to be causing very high illegal kill. Shifting from an APR to buck quotas led to greatly improved buck age structure and higher quality experiences for those fortunate enough to get a permit.]

Quartarone, F. 1996. Third time's a charm - Colorado tries again to improve its mule deer buck population. Mule Deer, Sum:10-12. [Colorado biologist Rick Kahn says, “Antler point restrictions haven’t worked particularly well for deer anywhere in the West.”]

Schultz, S.R. and M.K. Johnson. 1992. Antler development of captive Louisiana white-tailed bucks. Proceedings of Southeast Assn Fish Wildl Comm. 67-74. [“Spike-antlered yearlings continued to exhibit inferior antler development at the 2.5- and 3.5-year age-classes compared to branch-antlered yearlings.”]

Shea, S.M. and R.E. Vanderhoof. 1999. Evaluation of a five-inch regulation for increasing antler size of harvested deer in northwest Florida. Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Comm. Page 18 in Abstracts 22nd Southeast Deer Study Group. Fayetteville, Arkansas. 70pp. [The 5-inch rule resulted in high-grading of yearling deer and resulted in reduced antler mass of 2.5-yr-old bucks.]

Sorin, A. B. 2004. Paternity assignment for white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus): Mating across age classes and multiple paternity. J. Mamm. 85(2):356-362. [“Oldest males did not monopolize matings.” Despite a preponderance of older males in the age structure, yearling males successfully bred mostly with yearling does.]

Strickland, B.K., S. Demarais, L.E. Castle, J.W. Lipe, W.H. Lunceford, H.A. Jacobson, D. Frels, and K.V. Miller. 2001. Effects of selective-harvest strategies on white-tailed deer antler size. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 29(2):509-520. [Selective harvest criteria may negatively impact cohort antler size in subsequent years particularly in areas of high buck exploitation.]

Strickland, B.K. and S. Demarais. 2007. Using antler restrictions to manage for older-aged bucks: navigating the tangled thicket. Mississippi State Univ. Extn. Serv. Publ. 2427. 16pp. [Protecting yearling bucks with a 4-point restriction on public hunting areas in Mississippi resulted in a 42% reduction in buck harvest density and antler size within age classes generally declined. An alternative is a quota on bucks (e.g., limited licenses) or trying more complex antler restrictions (e.g., beam width and points).]

Stringham, S.F. 1993. Trophy bull management: An alternative strategy. Bugle. Fall:123-126. [Antler restrictions have focused mortality on mature bulls. “Focusing hunting pressure on preadolescent and adolescent males is a better approach…until they reach a 6x6 minimum.”]

Thomas, Lindsay, Jr. 2004. Rules to hunt by: A guide to mandatory antler regulations at the state and regional level – their history, their impacts and their future. Quality Whitetails 11(2):14-22. [Summarizes AR status and questions in Eastern states. Curiously, 6 of 7 states experimenting with ARs continue to have bag limits of 2 or more antlered bucks, although TX went to 1 buck in the AR zone.]

Wiegand, J.P. and R.J. Mackie. 1987. What’s working and what’s not: an overview of approaches to management for quality hunting. Proc. Western Assoc. of Fish and Wildl. Agencies 67:69-76.

Winand, C.J. 2009. Antler restrictions: Do they work? Bowhunter 38(3):56,58. [Author summarizes some results of the Texas “slot limit” where branch-antlered bucks with beam spreads less than 13 inches were protected: larger bucks and those with one or more unbranched antlers were legal. The proportion of older bucks in the harvest increased while total harvest was unchanged. Herd management efficacy and hunter densities and effort were unstated.]

Yendes, A. 1988. Do point restrictions build better bucks? Petersen's Hunting. Sep:53-55,122-123. [After 12 years of 4-point regulations in Oregon, legal harvest “declined 50 percent…and there has been a 30 percent decrease in buck ratios.” “When something sounds good, our immediate response is to form a line and question why we are standing in it later.”]

Young, K. 2003. Is quality management working in Arkansas? Arkansas Sportsman. September(?) www.arkansassportsmanmag.com (http://www.arkansassportsmanmag.com/) [after 5th year, “overall deer kill has decreased some 40 percent”].

[GoatGuy]

There are a few sources for you.

This is one of the most cited papers:

Carpenter, L.H. and B. Gill. 1987. Antler point regulations: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Transactions of the Western Association of Game and Fish
Commissioners 67: 94-107.

[325]

Wow, I will have some reading to do! There are too many papers there to reasonably read them all, can you direct me to a couple that would give a succinct over-view of the problems with antler restrictions regulations, and phenotype?

[325]

There are a few sources for you.

This is one of the most cited papers:

Carpenter, L.H. and B. Gill. 1987. Antler point regulations: the good, the bad, and the ugl

Transactions of the Western Association of Game and Fish
Commissioners 67: 94-107.


Ok, thanks! I will look at that!

[snareman1234]

If you want to know more about the effects of "selective harvest" on genetics, this is a good paper explaining it's effect on bighorn sheep in Alberta. Yes, not mule deer but the idea is the same. Full curl or 4-pt, some animals make it to these minimum's faster than others, as they likely have superior genetics, but as a result, are shot at younger ages.

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/courses.hp/biol506.hp/pdfs/Coltman+03.Nat-TrophyHunt.pdf

[adriaticum]

What I don't get is how does anybody know the difference between bad genetics or good ??? when you look at a spike fork deer how can you determine if it has a good jean pool or not :confused:..
Survival is the best evidence of good genetics.

[325]

This is from an article on culling bucks to try and influence antler growth patterns.

Another argument against culling bucks is the lack of understanding about white-tailed deer antler genetics. White-tailed deer genetics, including antler genetics, are poorly understood. As for the trait of antler development, what is known is the dam provides as much or more genetic influence for antler development as does the sire. If it is possible to impact a free-ranging deer herd’s antler genetics by removing specific deer, one would also have to identify and remove the doe that produced the cull buck in question. Additionally, one would have to believe that it is possible to quickly change thousands of years of genetic development with a rifle and bow. It simply doesn’t work that way.
Most “culling” experts tend to target bucks with unbalanced or abnormally shaped antlers rather than bucks with smaller, well-formed antlers. The unbalanced or abnormally shaped-antlered bucks are labeled “genetically inferior” or “limited potential” bucks, although their antler abnormalities may have nothing to do with genetics. On the other hand, most well formed but smaller antlered bucks are judged to be young, but with good potential. Unfortunately, this is completely wrong in many instances. Some of the “genetically inferior” or “limited potential” bucks are just young and need time to overcome injuries or a slow start in life. Conversely, many of the well-formed, smaller antlered bucks judged to be young are actually average 3½-years-old or older bucks that have grown their best antlers.
Causes of abnormal antlers in white-tailed deer are numerous. Unfortunately, nearly none of the causes can be identified by simply observing bucks in the field. This, however, does not prevent many deer hunters and managers from making misguided management decisions in the name of “culling.” In nearly all situations, the effort expended on trying to improve the genetics of a deer herd would be better spent on practices that can return tangible results, such as habitat improvement and shooting antlerless deer.
The Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources promotes wise stewardship, management and enjoyment of Alabama’s natural resources through five divisions: Marine Police, Marine

[adriaticum]

The concern with genetics is that a 4 pt season focuses all of the harvest on 4 pts, so all the yearling bucks that reach 4 pts will get shot. Oppositely, the bucks that are only 2 or 3 pts and never get to be 4 pts are protected by 4 pts season. Because a 4 pt season often results in a harvest of almost every 4 pt you end up with older 2 and 3 pt bucks doing a significant amount of breeding.

At the end of the day, you will end up with a less genetically diverse population than from a harvest across the entire male component.
Well said mr goatguy!

[snareman1234]

Survival is the best evidence of good genetics.


Roger. Truly by definition.

[adriaticum]

I think antler development is mostly dependent on the living conditions and the food quality. I believe some private hunting lodges down in the US feed their deer some minerals to help with antler growth. Thats why some deer pops have om average bigger antlers than others.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Wow, this thread is growing faster than a prescribed burn in August. A few of those would be welcome this summer.

SSS

[325]

Goatguy,

I just found the source of all your citations. You basically just copied and pasted an existing citation base you found online. Have you even read any of those papers (many of which are not peer reviewed journal articles)? My perusal shows that most have nothing to do with the statement you made earlier. I will look further into this.

[snareman1234]

Goatguy,

I just found the source of all your citations. You basically just copied and pasted an existing citation base you found online. Have you even read any of those papers (many of which are not peer reviewed journal articles)? My perusal shows that most have nothing to do with the statement you made earlier. I will look further into this.

Start with the paper I posted above about the effect of trophy hunting on bighorn genetics and resulting phenotypes. This was published in the journal "Nature" which is the top journal in biology. Professors spend their whole life trying to get one paper in this journal. This is peer reviewed to the MAX.

[BigfishCanada]

if they closed it to 4 point, id like to see an extended youth and bow season

[Salty]

^^ defeatist attitude. This isn't done yet I hope everyone takes the time to make their opinion known.

[Elkaholic]

When will people learn that point restrictions dont f'ing work. They are meant for short term recruitment not a management plan. Its like being nazi hunters only killing non blonde hair blue eyed people. We will kill all the 4's, same with the elk... I wonder why the genetics in general are crap? Why for the past decade has the big game club had to reduce its minimum scores so they get game entered. People need to wake up its not the regulations, its the whole system. Preds, habitat... everything, but its not the regs fault. I cant wait to get flamed in response but flame on sheeple.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy,

I just found the source of all your citations. You basically just copied and pasted an existing citation base you found online. Have you even read any of those papers (many of which are not peer reviewed journal articles)? My perusal shows that most have nothing to do with the statement you made earlier. I will look further into this.

That is all info on antler-point restrictions. It's a quick reference list. Yes, I have read most of those papers and others.

You will find the white-tail rationale is that they focus the harvest post-rut or that yearlings don't make a good representative sample of 'genetics'. You will also find that non-selective harvest is the preferred method.

The commonality you will find with ungulate ecologists is that you shouldn't be harvesting the young fastest growing males before they've had a chance to participate in the rut. The same applies to elk and mule deer. Oppositely, you shouldn't be protecting 'inferior' males, which due to slower antler or horn growth are not harvested and have the ability to become a 'dominant' animal. There are issues with phenotyping and things get messy, however the work in Alberta is quite well supported.

Survival and reproductive success are two very different things. The work out of Alberta has shown 'inferior' rams ability to survive is the same or higher than fast growing rams (due in part to regulations), but reproductive success is lower, typically offspring are small and less likely to survive etc.

[GoatGuy]

When will people learn that point restrictions dont f'ing work. People need to wake up its not the regulations, its the whole system. Preds, habitat... everything, but its not the regs fault. I cant wait to get flamed in response but flame on sheeple.

Agreed...
........

[coach]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/image_zps77f44095.jpg

[325]

When will people learn that point restrictions dont f'ing work. They are meant for short term recruitment not a management plan. Its like being nazi hunters only killing non blonde hair blue eyed people. We will kill all the 4's, same with the elk... I wonder why the genetics in general are crap? Why for the past decade has the big game club had to reduce its minimum scores so they get game entered. People need to wake up its not the regulations, its the whole system. Preds, habitat... everything, but its not the regs fault. I cant wait to get flamed in response but flame on sheeple.

I agree with what you're saying. Habitat loss, predation and weather are much bigger influences on ungulate populations than hunting (at least in BC). We have the power to influence 2 out of the 3 variables I mentioned.

As for point restrictions, I can see both sides of the argument. Would you like to see an any-bull elk GOS in the Kootenays? Personally, I would not. I like the six point restriction. Does that make me a sheeple??

[snareman1234]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/image_zps77f44095.jpg

SEEE! Our effects as hunters has resulted in the evolution of mule deer that are 30" wide 2x2's that can defy gravity!!!!! Thread over. Done deal.

[coach]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/IMG_3875.jpg

[BigfishCanada]

Had a few drinks with an American and he said that they have huge 2points now, lacking 4points throughout Washington. He wouldn't stop talking about if we have only a 4 point season that the same thing would happen to us

[Chopper]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/image_zps77f44095.jpg


This is a great example of why the system has to somehow educate and come up wit a system that can get hunters to only take mature animals.

Getting the general hunting population to learn how to age deer is a pretty far stretch ... and an even further stretch to enforce it but it is what needs to be done.

I know ... My post is a total pipe dream ...

[horshur]

However you view this proposal, you do have the opportunity to respond to it. The closing date is Dec. 13, 2013, so fly at it.
A few things I want to point out.
In Kuzyk's report, it is stated,
I don't entirely agree with this statement. The south Okanagan, Boundary and Similkemeen areas had a low MDs population in the late 40's and early 50s while the cougar population was at an all time high. When cougars started preying on ranging cattle, the government instituted a $200/cougar bounty, an astronomical amount for that time period. It was effective and the MD population rebounded by the early 60's.
Whitetail deer were not that abundant as they are now. They may be a twofold factor; first, the presence of the parasite Parelaphostrongylus tenuis (also known as meningeal worm, brainworm) which has a greater negative and potential life threatening affect on the other ungulates, especially mule deer; and second, the whitetail bucks more agressive nature when it comes to the rut. They will drive mule deer bucks off mule deer does in estrus, hence, non-producing hybrids.
The degradation of mature fir stands that are the prime wintering areas, whether harvesting or thinning, is detrimental no matter how you look at it. The MD rely on the canopy that these large trees create and for the mossy browse that they pull from the lower branches.
Reforestation after deforestation: Let's face it, there is no way that the replant rate can come anywhere near the harvest rate. Last report that I read on the replant said that it would take 1300 years to complete at the rate they were planting at that present time and that report is now several years old.
I said 1300 years, consider that a forest that the natural evolvution or a forest from fireweed to mature fir trees takes about 400-500 years. It would be beneficial to expedite that with controlled burns in clearcuts that have good soil structure. Plant the seedlings in areas of marginal soild structure so that they can take advantage of the slow release of nutrients. Those areas that are the result of hot fires like McClure and Okanagan mountain should be replanted.
I agree that the proposal is flawed and is presented with the sole purpose of placating a few. If enough people respond in opposition, I think that MOE would be more than willing to drop it.
Remember you have until a week this Friday to present your opinion whatever that may be.

sorry jag have you been in the burns? I ain't no forester but there sure as heck is young trees growing there now.

[GoatGuy]

Reforestation after deforestation: Let's face it, there is no way that the replant rate can come anywhere near the harvest rate. Last report that I read on the replant said that it would take 1300 years to complete at the rate they were planting at that present time and that report is now several years old.
I said 1300 years, consider that a forest that the natural evolvution or a forest from fireweed to mature fir trees takes about 400-500 years. It would be beneficial to expedite that with controlled burns in clearcuts that have good soil structure. Plant the seedlings in areas of marginal soild structure so that they can take advantage of the slow release of nutrients. Those areas that are the result of hot fires like McClure and Okanagan mountain should be replanted.

The thing about disturbance, particularly Okanagan and McClure is all of the pine that's coming in. Those areas should have actually been burned a second time <10 years after the first burn to kill off the regen. The reason the fires burned so hot is because of the build-up of fuel from fire surpression. The Okanagan should look 'like a park'. Open forests with food 'on the ground'. Most of it is NDT-3 and 4, bio zones IDF and PP, grasslands in the south. New trees are actually not what we want if we're managing for mule deer.

Most of it should be burned regularly. Snow interception and thermal cover... winter severity isn't as big of a deal in Region 8 as it is in other parts of the province.

Need good grub, good sightlines, and even lots of blowdown helps for abundant mule deer populations.

[ru rancher]

This is a great example of why the system has to somehow educate and come up wit a system that can get hunters to only take mature animals.

Getting the general hunting population to learn how to age deer is a pretty far stretch ... and an even further stretch to enforce it but it is what needs to be done.

I know ... My post is a total pipe dream ...
oh ya exactly would be a dream world but still just educating or haveing hunters listen to people saying take mature bucks doesnt neeed to be trophie bucks just more mature ones and besides there alot funner to hunt for cause they are a challenge but ya chances of that happening no way its way to hard to enforce

[adriaticum]

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/image_zps77f44095.jpg

Coach, you ok?
Drinking beer upside down might not be your sport.

[Jagermeister]

When I hear people talking about logging practices and the benefits there of I have to ask the question"Is not the timber to hide in just as or more important"? The logging I see going on in 8-09 is criminal. One stand which was slated to be cut is predominately fir and larch. I was relieved, upon recent discussions with the logging company, to hear that it was put on the back burner. Voicing my concern to the local wildlife biologist I was told they have no say in what the logging companies are doing in our forest. How the hell can we have a responsible wildlife management strategy when the sector of government which is supposed to fine tune and implement this strategy has no input as to what logging companies are doing on in the forest!!!!
That is precisely the problem. It has been on going for years and it will continue on for years. Forestry contributes so much to the BC economy, forest companies operate with virtual impunity.

[TexasWalker]

The only thing that will help mule deer populations is people having less babies and BC population drop. Everything else is just politics.
Maybe we should stop all the immigrants from hunting.

[Dannybuoy]

Maybe we should stop all the immigrants from hunting.
Define immigrant !

[TexasWalker]

if they closed it to 4 point, id like to see an extended youth and bow season

Why?

I don't understand this mentality in anything?

What makes a child or senior so special or different than the rest of us??

[Jagermeister]

sorry jag have you been in the burns? I ain't no forester but there sure as heck is young trees growing there now.I have driven through the McClure area fire frequently. It seemed to me that the regen process was stalled for a couple of years. The fireweed that one would expect to pop up the following year or perhaps the second year did not really materialize.
I have not been into the Okanagan Mountain fire since shortly after the fire.
Thought you all could drool over this one though. Not mine, an acquaintance.
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r496/Leaveoff/05Buck3_zpsdd71f1f7.jpg

[Weatherby Fan]

I have driven through the McClure area fire frequently. It seemed to me that the regen process was stalled for a couple of years. The fireweed that one would expect to pop up the following year or perhaps the second year did not really materialize.
I have not been into the Okanagan Mountain fire since shortly after the fire.
Thought you all could drool over this one though. Not mine, an acquaintance.
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r496/Leaveoff/05Buck3_zpsdd71f1f7.jpg

Yup Im drooling, wow nice buck.

[coach]

Coach, you ok?
Drinking beer upside down might not be your sport.

Funny. That picture shows up upside down in the thread I copied it from. It was right side up when I copied it and is right side up when I look at it now. I assume it's gotta be upside down for everyone else. Lol. Computer / iPads / iPhones .. They're all facked. :-D

[Elkaholic]

I agree with what you're saying. Habitat loss, predation and weather are much bigger influences on ungulate populations than hunting (at least in BC). We have the power to influence 2 out of the 3 variables I mentioned.

As for point restrictions, I can see both sides of the argument. Would you like to see an any-bull elk GOS in the Kootenays? Personally, I would not. I like the six point restriction. Does that make me a sheeple??


I would love to see it go back to the 3 pt and better regs. Most people will shoot the first legal bull in sight, leaving the mature bulls to do the breeding. You will still have guys trophy hunting which is fine. But the biggest majority of people could give a flying fadoodle about rack size and long as it tastes good. More bulls will get shot but as long as the breeding is happening it will free up food for the ones that make it and things should even out. But that is just my .02

[ravensfoot]

The trophy hunters think that by forcing everyone to shoot 4 points, there will be bigger bucks in the future. This is actually the complete opposite. What happens is all the hunters are still focusing on young deer, but the exception are they are yearling and 2 year old bucks that are basket 4s. Young and dumb is the bulk of the deer that get killed. Yearling and 2 year old 4's is your next 'Big' bucks. So they are actually shooting off the genetically superior bucks when they are still babies. Thus, they will never grow up into those 6, 7, and 8 year old giants that some of us in better managed Regions get to hunt. These trophy hunters are not very smart. This will not result in bigger bucks for them to hunt. Region 3 is indeed the role model that should be followed. Harvest over all age classes and you will see a healthy population. Harvesting yearling and 2 year old spikes, forkies and 3's during a month long any buck season means hunters aren't forced to shoot the genetically superior yearling and 2 year old 4's to fill the freezer. Thus those 4's will gain some smarts and grow up into the 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 year old giants that you see harvested in Region 3. This ain't rocket science. It is pretty dang simple common sense. But it seems common sense ain't that common these days.

This makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for your insight Dana.

[dougan]

Yay 4 point or better I'm happy😃

[Chopper]

oh ya exactly would be a dream world but still just educating or haveing hunters listen to people saying take mature bucks doesnt neeed to be trophie bucks just more mature ones and besides there alot funner to hunt for cause they are a challenge but ya chances of that happening no way its way to hard to enforce


Exactly the point I was trying to make

[Jagermeister]

Okay, moments ago I just received this same proposal for the second time. I think that they are wanting an opposing response to the proposal so they can tank it.

[Jagermeister]

It's put up or shut up, so I put up. Sent a comment on the issue in opposition to the proposed regulation change.

[bambi slayer]

they should get rid of the whitey doe season in 8. you cant even get within 200 yards of white tail now. even more skiddish than before. i am opposed to guys shooting little spikers but 4 point bucks all year? thats a bit too much i think

[Wrayzer]

i am opposed to guys shooting little spikers but 4 point bucks all year? thats a bit too much i think

Strong contradicting post to username.

[bambi slayer]

Strong contradicting post to username.
bambi was a buck if i remember correctly

[limit time]

bambi was a buck if i remember correctly
And a spike to boot

[bambi slayer]

And a spike to boot
hah right at the end when he grew up he was a nice buck

[GoatGuy]

Kootenay-Boundary Draft Mule Deer Management Plan

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/kb_mule_deer_managementplan_draft.pdf

[GoatGuy]

"There is little evidence to suggest buck-only hunting seasons affect population viability because bucks are able to breed all available does even at low buck:doe ratios. Buck harvest can skew sex ratios and alter the age structure of the male component of the population, with high harvest rates resulting in few bucks reaching 3.5 years of age or older (Hatter, unpublished data). Antler point restrictions, including “4-point or greater” seasons have been adopted in several jurisdictions in an attempt to increase buck:doe ratios and increase average age of bucks. In some cases, “4-point or greater” seasons increased buck:doe ratios but this was likely the result of fewer hunters participating in the season. The number of 3.5+ bucks in harvest did not increase following implementation of this season in most jurisdictions, while accidental kill (i.e., <4-point bucks) increased. Seasons that allow harvest across all age classes are generally preferred; however shortened seasons outside of the rut may be needed to achieve target buck ratios. "

[dana]

I will clarify my 'genetically superior' comments. I am not taking genetically superior for survival (survival of the fittest), I am talking genetically superior for growing big antlers. Yearlings and 2 year olds that are spikes and forkies, will never grow into a trophy buck as it gains age. Whereas, yearling 4s are a sign of strong antler genetics, and given age and feed have a good chance at growing into a monster. It takes a special buck to grow to B&C caliber buck, but most of these yearling 4s will indeed grow into trophy caliber bucks in the high 170s and 180s. Spikes and Forkies just aren't going to make it. Some like to quote whitetail studies on spikes, but we are not talking whitetails here. You can not apply whitetail science to muleys. They are a totally different creature.

[bambi slayer]

I will clarify my 'genetically superior' comments. I am not taking genetically superior for survival (survival of the fittest), I am talking genetically superior for growing big antlers. Yearlings and 2 year olds that are spikes and forkies, will never grow into a trophy buck as it gains age. Whereas, yearling 4s are a sign of strong antler genetics, and given age and feed have a good chance at growing into a monster. It takes a special buck to grow to B&C caliber buck, but most of these yearling 4s will indeed grow into trophy caliber bucks in the high 170s and 180s. Spikes and Forkies just aren't going to make it. Some like to quote whitetail studies on spikes, but we are not talking whitetails here. You can not apply whitetail science to muleys. They are a totally different creature.
very good statement

[dana]

Jagermeister,

400-500 years for a mature Doug Fir???? Please stop making comments about trees as you obviously are not an expert. :) Interior Doug Fir are considered Mature at 120 years. 80 years is considered older immature. When you age as many trees as I do in a year, you'll be amazed at the size of many 80 year old Fd. I measure many in this valley in the 50-80 cm Diameter range and 30-40 metres tall. All very much good healthy mule deer winter range cover. I can also tell ya in some of our IDF zones, planting is a challenge as muleys love eating the new trees even after Pig blooding and cones are used. Some blocks get planted numerous times and still the deer eat them.


As for comments about the McLure Fire, many surveys in areas outside the salvage logging showed Bl and Fd coming in strong on their own, so no, it just isn't Pl coming in.

[darkside]

i would agree too much politics and not enough management....youth and senoirs should be open to any buck all season long .... we want to pass it on you need to allow them to have a better opportunity to harvest an animal.besides most old guys can see anyways!!!!!1 ha ha
Well exactly, if the buck to doe ratio is ok and the any buck season is not harming the overall numbers of deer and the doe's are being bread........why change........just to appease a few whiners ? Politics should never dictate management strategies.

[Jelvis]

You guys have no idea how many female muley a stud buck can mount in the heat of the nights.
I have a ratio for the deer fall hay she ho. One buck can breed does week after week.
Some bucks couldn't get a chance never mind mounting.
It's the big bruiser and your the lah hoozer, attitude of gratitude at all latitudes.
Altitude is important with certain weather patterns. Longy toodz also.
Go where the deer are and you will see them, and hear them.
If a big mule buck jumped hard on the forest floor and you were not there, not even near, but not within human hearing unless wearing a Miracle Ear would it make a sound?
Anyvayz, Reg 8 is doo to be late for stopping the boppin, CLOSED! For Hen nee Buck October
Region 3 has the product and hunters have the demand, Henny Buck Yocktoober 2014 in 3
I'll be seeing you drive by Kammy on Tranquille Road, Cali leh and any buckle doo.
Jelman in Kammy -- C Yah in 2014 in 3. Any Buckle doo -- Yock Toe Brrr --

[Salty]

That's some full-auto Jel right there ^^ yo

[dana]

When I hear people talking about logging practices and the benefits there of I have to ask the question"Is not the timber to hide in just as or more important"? The logging I see going on in 8-09 is criminal. One stand which was slated to be cut is predominately fir and larch. I was relieved, upon recent discussions with the logging company, to hear that it was put on the back burner. Voicing my concern to the local wildlife biologist I was told they have no say in what the logging companies are doing in our forest. How the hell can we have a responsible wildlife management strategy when the sector of government which is supposed to fine tune and implement this strategy has no input as to what logging companies are doing on in the forest!!!!

You were informed wrong. Everyone has a say. FSPs are developed by all licencees and the general public can comment on them. The FSPs must adhere to all Higher Level Plans. Wildlife is covered in many higher level plans. As an example, the Kamloops LRMP was developed by all stakeholders and timber harvest guidelines were developed for Critical Mule Deer Winter Range. They also came up with guidelines for Critical Moose Winter Range and Mountain Caribou Range. The local Bios, BCWF, industry, environmentalists ect all agreed to this higher level plan.

[Jagermeister]

Jagermeister,

400-500 years for a mature Doug Fir???? Please stop making comments about trees as you obviously are not an expert. :) Interior Doug Fir are considered Mature at 120 years. 80 years is considered older immature. When you age as many trees as I do in a year, you'll be amazed at the size of many 80 year old Fd. I measure many in this valley in the 50-80 cm Diameter range and 30-40 metres tall. All very much good healthy mule deer winter range cover. I can also tell ya in some of our IDF zones, planting is a challenge as muleys love eating the new trees even after Pig blooding and cones are used. Some blocks get planted numerous times and still the deer eat them.


As for comments about the McLure Fire, many surveys in areas outside the salvage logging showed Bl and Fd coming in strong on their own, so no, it just isn't Pl coming in. I don't think you read it quite right.
What I said Dana was
"....the natural evolvution of a forest from fireweed to mature fir trees takes about 400-500 years. "No where did I say that it took what you posted
"400-500 years for a mature Doug Fir????"
The natural progression of the forest starts with forbs and other plants such as fireweed. Then progressing to low bush shrubs like red osier dogwood followed by the deciduous trees and finally the conifers. Each growing higher than the previous thereby blocking the former from sunlight necessary for continued growth. In the end the tallest dominate the forest which are from the Fir Genus. They all don't start growing at the same instant so the evolution takes a greater growing time than just that of an individual genus.

[dana]

And I guess you misunderstood me. I'll use the North Thompson and Adams valleys as examples. Huge wildfires in the 1920's. Now, many Fd are in the 50-80 cm DBH range. Nowhere near 400-500 years now is it. Fire is the main natural disturbance. But so is wind and bugs. I don't believe there are many if any Interior Fd leading forests that are 400-500 years of age in this province. Sure there are some old fire scared vets that have survived multiple fires that are probably in that ballpark, but they are normally scattered across the stand and are nowhere leading. So I really don't know where you are going with your comments. I can assure you that not many forest companies are targeting age class 9 fir as they typically are gnarly pieces of $hit when it comes to timber quality. Fire scared, wind shook, spiral grain, forked and crooked and just plain nasty. Most make for great Wildlife Trees. If they are harvested it is normally due to IBD attack and they fall and burn then.

[Gateholio]

In the last few years I've been within spitting distance of a few young 4 pt bucks with tiny little racks about the circumference of a grapefruit. These bucks had quite a bit of trophy potential. Had I been in a 4 pt only region , most hunters probably would have shot them because they are legal. 4 pt seasons promote the Culling the best antlered bucks when they are young and dumb. I don't see how this appeals to trophy oriented hunters, but for some reason it does????

[HarryToolips]

What I don't like about the proposed regs for my reg 8 anyway is those regions that they omited from the 'any buck' season (Christian Valley etc)..I understand that those areas muleys aren't as abundant as the rest of the region, but now your going to get way more hunter pressure come october in the rest of reg 8 where any buck is open..anyways I ain't no expert and I've learned a hell of alot from people on this site and it sounds like harvesting from all age classes of bucks is the way to go, although it seemed to me there were more mulies when any buck was shorter.. I'm always amazed when I go up in the bush at how much road access there is everywhere, so id be awesome if they started de-activating some roads, and by the sounds of it that would help out the moose alot too..wouldn't that be better than restricting the seasons?? And if there's more hunters now than a few years ago there should be more $$ so where the hell are our habitat enhancement projects??

[HarryToolips]

Totally off topic but can someone PM me on how to post up pics?? I'm a computer R tard

[coach]

Harry - I'm amazed at how much your opinions have changed in a year. Great to see GG and a few others are getting the message across about science based management.

Picture posting instructions are in my signature line. :-D

[325]

In the last few years I've been within spitting distance of a few young 4 pt bucks with tiny little racks about the circumference of a grapefruit. These bucks had quite a bit of trophy potential. Had I been in a 4 pt only region , most hunters probably would have shot them because they are legal. 4 pt seasons promote the Culling the best antlered bucks when they are young and dumb. I don't see how this appeals to trophy oriented hunters, but for some reason it does????

How does the "any buck" season spare these little 4 points?

[Salty]

How does the "any buck" season spare these little 4 points?

It means they aren't the only young inexperienced bucks targeted, all young inexperienced bucks are open by far most of them being spikers, two points.

[one-shot-wonder]

I'm always amazed when I go up in the bush at how much road access there is everywhere, so id be awesome if they started de-activating some roads, and by the sounds of it that would help out the moose alot too..wouldn't that be better than restricting the seasons?? And if there's more hunters now than a few years ago there should be more $$ so where the hell are our habitat enhancement projects??

All good questions that need to be asked of Ministry staff and the elected officials. HT you live in an area that has the premier for MLA, take advantage of this opportunity. CC is going to be looking for showcase projects to cut the ribbon on in her constituents backyard over the next 4 years. Now is the time to bang the drum and maybe, just maybe get some funding for projects in the okanagan region. Otherwise if we as hunters stand on the sidelines watching life pass us by chirping about measley antler point restrictions, we will continue to let other priorities take the cake such as the upgrading of westside road, (which isn't a bad thing) however will just bring more road hunters efficiently to your hunting grounds! :mrgreen:

[Weatherby Fan]

Well I signed up and posted my position on this situation, hopefully enough people do the same.
WF

[Salty]

You have time for input
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/hunting/close-any-buck-general-open-seasons-east-okanagan-and-kootenays

Still time, register at the bottom of the page ^ and you instantly receive an email enabling your account to comment directly to this and other proposals. I just sent in my comments - basically- although I understand they are being lobbied by a vocal minority that they reconsider this proposal which will not increase the number of bucks, the size of bucks and that worse of all it will directly affect genetic diversity of mule deer as has been proven in many other jurisdictions across north America.

[coach]

I registered and submitted my comments on this subject. Game populations in British Columbia need to continue to be managed by the best possible science - not by the "feelings" or "wishes" of those who would prefer to manage people. Habitat and predator management must be our top priorities.

[Jagermeister]

“400-500 years for a mature Doug Fir???? Please stop making comments about trees as you obviously are not an expert.”
Neither are you by the looks of it, well informed but not the expert you like to portray. Case in point, you question that a mature Fd to be 400-500 years at maturity. In actual fact, they are some of the oldest living species of trees in North America. In some instances exceeding 750 years. Only surpassed in longevity by Sitka Spruce, Western Redcedar, Alaskan Cedar, Coastal Redwood, Rocky Mountain Bristlecone Pine, Giant Sequoia, and the Great Basin Bristlecone Pine. They exceed the following in longevity; Western Larch, Ponderosa Pine, Engelmann Spruce, Incense Cedar, Port Orford Cedar, Oregon White Oak, Eastren Hemlock, Westen Hemlock and finally Blue Spruce. It should be noted that even the Blue Spruce reaches 400-500 years.


“ Interior Doug Fir are considered Mature at 120 years. 80 years is considered older immature.”



Who considers that a Fd is mature at 120 years? The forest companies do because they cannot wait for trees to age beyond that as they might not be around harvest. So they convince themselves that an 80 year old tree is allowabe but will cut at 60 if it is allowed.
When you look at age comparisons, would you say that a 13 year old boy is mature compared to an 80 year old man? The ratio is the same as comparing a 120 year old Fd to one that is 750+.


“ When you age as many trees as I do in a year, you'll be amazed at the size of many 80 year old Fd. I measure many in this valley in the 50-80 cm Diameter range and 30-40 metres tall.”



Now you know that Fd can reach 750+years and heights of 70-80 meters if left to grow.
Looking at the trees you are assessing, those trees at best are juvenile, No where near their maximum age or growth potential. The have just attained 50% of the potential height but we know that they are harvestable because they meet the dimensional criteria for the forest company.


“And I guess you misunderstood me. I'll use the North Thompson and Adams valleys as examples. Huge wildfires in the 1920's. Now, many Fd are in the 50-80 cm DBH range. Nowhere near 400-500 years now is it.”


The example is irrelevent and innuendo, however this can be said about the example anyhow.
How would they be older if they are early sucession regeneration? Let’s suppose that the 1931 forest fire in the Vavenby area didn’t happen. Then you would be dealing with a much older tree, perhaps a forest of Fd well in excess of the age of the trees of today, maybe more toward maximum age .


“I can assure you that not many forest companies are targeting age class 9 fir as they typically are gnarly pieces of $hit when it comes to timber quality...........”



Most interior forest companies ceased cutting large wood 40 years ago when the government mandated that they had to utilize the tree to about 4 inch diameter. The pulpmills gave up their timber rights which was primarily in Lodgepole Pine stands for a guaranteed fiber suppy. The government did not want the entire Lodgepole tree going to chips, they wanted to utilize dimensional wood. So the sawmills got the timber supply held by the pulpmills and the pulpmills got the guaranteed fiber supply. The interior mills geared up to chip and saw and the big wood was mostly left standing except for the Fd that was about the same size as the Lodgepole Pine. Any bigger Fd that was harvested usually went to specialty mills that service markets overseas like Shinto Temples in Japan as an example.
I underlined “sucession regeneration” because that was what I was referring to in the earlier post about the evolution of a forest. Here’s a picture to illustrate that, I had one some where that is more pertinent to BC but you can substitute Douglas Fir for Hickory and Western Redcedar for the Oak. The rest of the sucession is the same.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r496/Leaveoff/Figure_19_04_151_zps4090144b.jpg

Note that the terminal species, pine, hickory and oak in the illustration start growing in the intermediate time line. Likewise, Douglas Fir, Cedars, Spruce and Pines. From the beginning, pioneer plants, to the end or climax of the forest can take well beyond 750+ years in a Douglas Fir forest if left undisturbed.
Photo from cnx.org

[Salty]

I think what dana was getting at about mature fir forests quoted above ^ is that you just don't find 500 year old stands of fir in the interior. Fire takes them out before they get that old other than the odd old war horse that's been through several fires but a 100 year old canopy of fir generally is old in the interior and for all intensive purposes that forest is an old growth forest. Coastal rainforest - different story because there's virtually no forest fires. I was in to more than one checked or broken fir top getting firewood this yr out here that were 300+ years old. No, I didn't count the rings but my wife did :)

[Gateholio]

How does the "any buck" season spare these little 4 points?

Simply because if a hunter isn't picky, he will shoot the first legal buck he sees. Odds are it's not a 4 pt. In a 4 pt season he is forced to pass up spikes, forks , mature 3 pts etc. if the young 4 pt is the first legal deer he sees, most hunters will take it instead of going home skunked.

[Jagermeister]

I was speaking in the broader sense, not to a specific area. The key statement is this,
From the beginning, pioneer plants, to the end or climax of the forest can take well beyond 750+ years in a Douglas Fir forest if left undisturbed.
I can show you Fd trees in my area that are well past the 100 yr date, probably close to three hundred. They are few but at one time there were more. There was a disturbance in the past that took out the rest, in this case settlement expansion and sawmilling.
Also considering that these large trees are not shoulder to shoulder. The canopies will be touching, but the trunks will be well dispersed with lots of open ground between. About the only thing thriving on the forest floor will be mosses and lichens due to the lack of sunlight penetration.
A climax forest is one that if not disturbed can reach to age potential of the trees that exist in it.
The oldest tree in NA is the Great Basin Bristlecone pine. It's longevity is 3000-4000 years and the Giant Sequoia is right behind. These trees achieved that age because they're undisturbed by nothing so far. Anything less that full age potential of the climax tree is a restart or secondary succession. What is so hard about understanding that?
They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't think it is getting across in this instance. And this has derailed my own thread and the old gal is chirping at me about Christmas lights.......

[325]

Simply because if a hunter isn't picky, he will shoot the first legal buck he sees. Odds are it's not a 4 pt. In a 4 pt season he is forced to pass up spikes, forks , mature 3 pts etc. if the young 4 pt is the first legal deer he sees, most hunters will take it instead of going home skunked.

I get that. But how do you know the little basket 4 point will end-up a bigger deer than a fork horn? What if the little 4 point is really a year older than you think?