Reconsider Region 4 GOS for Elk and other regulations....

[bugleboy]

Time to reconsider the region 4 General Open Season on elk. Numbers are down significantly and so are success rates. Local meat cutters are reporting declines anywhere between 50%-75% over the past several years despite hunter numbers being considerably higher during that time. Deer numbers aren't much better. A GOS on whitetail does? Get rid of it! Remember the GOS on cow and calf elk?; that was a real winner. Bring back a 2 buck limit if you want to enhance "hunter opportunity." Forget the biologist BS based on the extrapolation of unreliable numbers in the first place. Wait a few more years and it will take many years to achieve previous numbers again.

"There are two ways of lying. One, not telling the truth and the other, making up statistics!"

[limit time]

So...you got skunked??

[doubled]

Pretty much I would think and probably got interrupted by a guy in a truck riding up the road he had his blind set up on.... Just kidding.


So...you got skunked??

[r106]

If there lying and making up statistics and you know it what and where is your proof? What are your stats that show a season change is needed? If your going by just what the meat cutters are telling you then thats a load of crap. Meat cutters in the East Koots should be slower since they opened up the West Koots.

If there is a issue with animal #'s it's most likely dew to high wolf #'s not hunters. We are just a pin prick in the equation

[Islandeer]

Wow!!!!!!! you need to share more of your logic with us,very revealing.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Can you please provide the statistics, or links to the survey info from the local meat cutters. I didn't know there was a scientific survey of meat cutter numbers, but I'm sure these stats aren't made up from hearsay.

Reported success rates are just that, "reported", and not necessarily actual harvest numbers.

And are we talking East Kootenay or West Kootenay GOS?

[325]

A 6x restriction on elk protects the population over-all. In my opinion, there are lots of elk in the WK, and that seems to be supported by what the biologists are saying. In fact, I've never seen more elk sign and elk than this year. In the last 10 days I've seen about 35+ elk including three 6x6 bulls (one a 340 inch cranker). The elk have been hunted under a GOS now for a few seasons, and the "easy" days of calling in naïve bulls are over. Now that early winter has arrived and elk are moving down to the valley bottoms, it is evident that there is not a shortage of elk.

For those who disagree, can you please explain to me how a GOS for 6x bulls has the potential to significantly reduce an elk population??

BTW, I do agree wolves are becoming WAY to numerous in the WK, and they definitely have the potential to reduce over-all elk populations.

[coach]

Local meat cutters are reporting declines anywhere between 50%-75% over the past several yearsForget the biologist BS based on the extrapolation of unreliable numbers
Outstanding.. Very well thought out argument.. :confused: Yet another idiotic thread begins on HBC. :evil: I amazed those who really understand the issues of game management even bother to keep responding.

How many of the butchers attended meetings at the local fish and game clubs? How many spent the time to educate themselves on habitat issues? How many know that management proposals start at the club level and are passed to the regional level and then on to the bios?

Here's the big one: How many considered the fact that the closure of the youth/senior GOS on cows might have had an effect on what they saw in their shops this year?

Fortunately, game in BC is managed by science and not people's social beliefs. There's still some hope for the future.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Let me guess....you're from crazybrook???

SSS

[sawmill]

He`s on drugs,the whitie doe GOS ain`t hurting a thing.I see tons of them everytime I go out.

[rocksteady]

Let me guess....you're from crazybrook???

SSS

HEY HEY!!! That was uncalled for :)

[Gateholio]

Guys please don't be rude. The OPs opinions may be completely contrary to proper wildlife management, but try to educate him , not just ridicule him.

[snareman1234]

THIS is a GEM. I'd like to clear this up for the rest of the people who made read this.


Time to reconsider the region 4 General Open Season on elk. Numbers are down significantly and so are success rates.
Not true... Both the WK and EK herds are stable. Aligning the seasons has balanced pressure between the zones now that the initial "rush" to the WK is diminishing. What's your sample size for this statement? 1 trip, and a few beers with buddies who were also unsuccessful? This is FALSE.


Local meat cutters are reporting declines anywhere between 50%-75% over the past several years despite hunter numbers being considerably higher during that time.
If you want to talk about made up stats, you may want to look at home. I guarantee you your number is FALSE if a legitimate account of butcher activity were conducted. The only way they'd see a significant decline would be because of an increase of other butchers competing for the butchering in the area. Once again- sample size of 1? 2?

Deer numbers aren't much better. A GOS on whitetail does? Get rid of it! Remember the GOS on cow and calf elk?; that was a real winner. Bring back a 2 buck limit if you want to enhance "hunter opportunity."
If you are insinuating that WT deer numbers are down, this is another case of misinformation on your part. First, BC rarely inventories WT as they are next to impossible to get reliable counts on. So how do you know numbers are down? (is this a sample size issue again?) Second, one way to judge the effect of WT harvest on population dynamics is to count fawns. In Texas (where boundless resources are spent studying WT and their management), they stated that when you reach a maximum harvest yield for your population, you will start seeing triplet fawns. The hunter harvest will be so high that a doe will invest in producing triplets as the populations is below carrying capacity and she can realistically expect high survival from her investment. We are not seeing this. That's a little bit of "science" for you regarding whether we are "overharvesting", and regarding hunter opportunity for bucks- I suggest looking at Ourea's WT thread which proves the limiting factor in WT hunting is the hunter's ambition not the WT resource.


Forget the biologist BS based on the extrapolation of unreliable numbers in the first place. Wait a few more years and it will take many years to achieve previous numbers again.

No signal of any massive declines on elk or WT so no reason to worry about waiting for a rebound.


"There are two ways of lying. One, not telling the truth and the other, making up statistics!"
There's a third...Midnight typing leading to falsified claims..

[BiG Boar]

I didn't get my elk this year either. Or my WT doe. So therefore I'm inclined to say I think you're bang on!!!

I mean, I could stick my head up an elks arse, but I'd rather just take the butchers word for it!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

HEY HEY!!! That was uncalled for :)

We all know there are many a good people from there:)......but they're usually not as loud.

[Ron.C]

There are not massive heards of elk where we hunt in the EK but every year we go, we get into them. And every year we seem do do a little better finding them. Last year we got two, this year nil. But that wasn't beacuse they weren't there. They just got the better of us and we "I" failed to capitalize to the opportunities. :oops:

[Everett]

Another Cranbrook road hunter who didn't get an Elk so he is convinced the population is down oh and according to my butcher its been a bumper year for Elk.
Saw a dozen 6 point Elk just this week while hunting whitetails. supposedly there is now whitetails left either.

[GoatGuy]

The 6 pts bull elk GOS in the EK and WK is a fail-safe regulation. It is not elk management, it is a skimming the cream off season. You could have a population of 50 elk across the entire province - having a 6 pts season for elk would still be sustainable.

It would kinda be like having a 100+ year old male only sasquatch season across the province.:-| For those who 'believe' in sasquatches.


If you are seeing fewer elk, or no elk, all that is left for options is habitat, predation or a combination of the two. If you believe elk are down, you should write your MLA, but you should consider using the BIG PICTURE to support your concerns, not something that is fictitious and won't help wildlife. You are falling into a deep trap that many before you are currently in - it has been detrimental to wildlife in the EK adn WK.

If you want to help wildlife in the EK and WK your letter needs to say we need more: money for inventory, habitat enhancement and predator management.

Those are the 3 keys that will help wildlife in BC. Talking about regulations will do nothing for wildlife in the region.

[genockous]

Meat cutters are seeing a decline in customers due to...we are cutting our own and saving money..

[doubled]

Meat cutters are seeing a decline in customers due to...we are cutting our own and saving money..

BINGO, after this weekend, we will have cut ten animals ourselves with over half usually going to the butcher.

[Jagermeister]

I know a guy from my area that makes the pilgrimage to the EK trench every year. Not a road hunter, on the contrary, he is hardcore. Packs his horses over there for the yearly sabbatical and he has been doing it for some time. Well, this year he got skunked. His party did not see anything that they could shoot, Ralph thought that was a might strange.
Perhaps there might be a trace of validity to the op's post. Who knows what will be revealed when the annual migration to the wintering grounds is in full swing.

[Gateholio]

I know a guy from my area that makes the pilgrimage to the EK trench every year. Not a road hunter, on the contrary, he is hardcore. Packs his horses over there for the yearly sabbatical and he has been doing it for some time. Well, this year he got skunked. His party did not see anything that they could shoot, Ralph thought that was a might strange.
Perhaps there might be a trace of validity to the op's post. Who knows what will be revealed when the annual migration to the wintering grounds is in full swing.

If there are less elk, it is not due to a 6 pt GOS.

[Geo.338]

Meat cutters are seeing a decline in customers due to...we are cutting our own and saving money..

Meatcutters will find themselves with less wild meat to cut because they are getting too expensive . When a party of 3 return with 2 moose and the cutting cost is $500 each I find myself looking at the cost of buying my own equipment . You can get a really nice grinder for $500 .

Every year someone else builds their own cooler .

I do not hunt the Koots but my buddy has for years . He tells me that the animals are there but they have been pushed back away from roads and you have to work to get into them .

[GoatGuy]

Whether we're seeing a huge decline in elk or not is one issue.

The other thing hunters definitely will see, whether the population is declining or not, is that elk do get pushed around by wolves in a big way. Some areas will be hot and others will be devoid of life a times. There are areas that have had great elk hunting for decades, but wolves have recolonized and are hitting those areas as well. We saw it last year when a spot where we saw something like 35 bulls in the first three days went quiet and the elk disappeared after the wolves rolled in. The elk had not showed back up by the time we left 3 weeks later.

[one-shot-wonder]

Meatcutters will find themselves with less wild meat to cut because they are getting too expensive . When a party of 3 return with 2 moose and the cutting cost is $500 each I find myself looking at the cost of buying my own equipment . You can get a really nice grinder for $500 .

Every year someone else builds their own cooler .

I do not hunt the Koots but my buddy has for years . He tells me that the animals are there but they have been pushed back away from roads and you have to work to get into them .

Same thing applies to Taxidermists.....pricing themselves out of work big time!

[Jagermeister]

If there are less elk, it is not due to a 6 pt GOS.No, it probably is not due to the 6pt GOS. However, if the elk numbers are significantly less than recent years for which data is available,
you could probably bet your bottom dollar that there will be a change to the elk season in one fashion or another. Like I said. "Who knows what will be revealed when the annual migration to the wintering grounds is in full swing."

[horshur]

Same thing applies to Taxidermists.....pricing themselves out of work big time!


I know this is off topic but in defense costs have gone threw the roof across the board....it isn't really that they are pricing themselves but they are being forced or work for free...what you guys see is the cost of doing business these days....

[GoatGuy]

Same thing applies to Taxidermists.....pricing themselves out of work big time!

Billable hours for the Golden Gate, and cost recovery for science-fiction.

[one-shot-wonder]

I know this is off topic but in defense costs have gone threw the roof across the board....it isn't really that they are pricing themselves but they are being forced or work for free...what you guys see is the cost of doing business these days....

Not in ALL taxi's cases.....the demand boom of 2007-2011 raised rates exponentially for most, the supply drop of the last few years will not bring the rates into check.......just sayin

[325]

If there are less elk, it is not due to a 6 pt GOS.

Exactly! I'm not sure why some hunters have trouble with this concept?? :?

[325]

No, it probably is not due to the 6pt GOS. However, if the elk numbers are significantly less than recent years for which data is available,
you could probably bet your bottom dollar that there will be a change to the elk season in one fashion or another. Like I said. "Who knows what will be revealed when the annual migration to the wintering grounds is in full swing."

There may be a change to the regulations if elk populations are declining, but hopefully not to the GOS for 6 point bulls, as changing the GOS would be a political move, not one based on sound wildlife management.

[snareman1234]

I know a guy from my area that makes the pilgrimage to the EK trench every year. Not a road hunter, on the contrary, he is hardcore. Packs his horses over there for the yearly sabbatical and he has been doing it for some time. Well, this year he got skunked. His party did not see anything that they could shoot, Ralph thought that was a might strange.
Perhaps there might be a trace of validity to the op's post. Who knows what will be revealed when the annual migration to the wintering grounds is in full swing.

Anecdotal evidence can be very misleading and often leads people to irrational conclusions. Usually, these conclusions end up at either extreme in the spectrum.

I shot a 7x5 bull in the EK. I've never hunted elk in my life. I saw 6 other legal bulls. 2 of which I flat out let walk, the rest I was unable to close on. A man I met in the valley did two horse trips, totalling 4 days of hunting and his family got two 6pt bulls. So, are these elk everywhere? No, just the sample I'm drawing from is small, and skewed to the "high success" side.

[limit time]

I didn't get my elk this year either. Or my WT doe. So therefore I'm inclined to say I think you're bang on!!!

I mean, I could stick my head up an elks arse, but I'd rather just take the butchers word for it!


Whatever you say...Tommy Boy...

[The Dawg]

Found his problem

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?100347-Quad-hunting-tips-please&p=1402358#post1402358

[limit time]

If there are less elk, it is not due to a 6 pt GOS.
If it was the case, that means REGION 8 has more elk??

[BiG Boar]

Found his problem

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?100347-Quad-hunting-tips-please&p=1402358#post1402358

So is he an anti hunter? Why does he want all of these hunts taken away? I'm a bit lost. He obviously hunts to near to roads in my opinion.

[dana]

Do hunters not pay attention to weather anymore? Wasn't most of Sept hotter than hell? hmmm, not rocket science to know things will be quiet when it's hot.

[GoatGuy]

Do hunters not pay attention to weather anymore? Wasn't most of Sept hotter than hell? hmmm, not rocket science to know things will be quiet when it's hot.

Hahahaha, we were 'well informed' last year when we ran into a fellow on his dirt bike in a hunting road closure. Not hunting of course, he was very clear about that - the binoculars and spotting scope must have been for star gazing or birdwatching.

"Yep, it's too hot this year, the rut is at least a month behind."

"I guess all the calves will be born a month late next year."


Took a while but ended up being hit right in the fivehead. Apparently it is 'rocket science'.


Yes, placed a phone call in to the COS.

Will refrain from stating where the hunter was from...... and who the local newspaper story writer he was 'hunting buddies with' for the risk of hurting feelings by identifying the dynamic purveyance of misinformation.

[Gateholio]

If it was the case, that means REGION 8 has more elk??

Im not sure what your question is?

[dana]

I had several talking sessions with bulls this Sept. None in hunting areas. I was just trying to have something to shoot with my camera. While they answered me quite well, all stayed put in the thick Cottonwood jungles. I never saw a single bull even though I was a mere 40 yards from a couple of them. This was at the end of Sept and I was in a t-shirt and sweating. No wonder they were happy sleeping during the day and rutting at night.

[bugler]

Of course the whitetail and elk populations in the EK have been reduced in the last few years. That was the intention of the cow and doe seasons and it has worked. Apparently we got the elk down to target because they killed the cow season. Are they approaching extinction? Hardly. But ya, they are down. And the predators certainly aren't helping the situation. There is still enough to hunt but she ain't like she used to be.

[happyhunter]

Of course the whitetail and elk populations in the EK have been reduced in the last few years. That was the intention of the cow and doe seasons and it has worked. Apparently we got the elk down to target because they killed the cow season. Are they approaching extinction? Hardly. But ya, they are down. And the predators certainly aren't helping the situation. There is still enough to hunt but she ain't like she used to be.

I agree but to have high numbers of game you need to have the habitat and particularly the winter range. Also high numbers of game can increase predator populations in a hurry. Gotta have predator management if we want that much game running around

[bugler]

I agree, high predator numbers likely the biggest problem. 6pt GOS not so much.

[Rattler]

Going with 4 point season for MD and cancelling the 6pt GOS on elk will not increase their populations. A combination of factors are resulting in the MD population decline, namely habitat loss, predators and competition from WT, Elk and moose. I have seen strong numbers of elk in the WK in the last couple of weeks and can say during the season we see more elk than MD hands down.

[hunter1947]

The elk population in region 4 are doing just fine management has done a good job getting the elk numbers back to a good number ,,its the mule deer population we have to get back in numbers ,,, hunting mule deer during GOS no point restriction ,,predators,,habitat ,,miss management ,, no revenue for management to get the job done ,,winter kills is the reason for the decline on the mule deer population its a big circle on all .

My opinion is management has to do a better job managing the mule deer GOS but first they have to get the predator population under control and how they can do this will be hard to do.

There are some regions that carry good numbers of mule deer and then again there are many regions where there are low numbers of mule deer within these regions where there are hi population of predators the number of game animals will decline over a few years I have seen this happen many times over my years hunting..

Vancouver island took a big hit from the wolf population from 1980 to 1990 I hunted deer hard back then on the island could not find a deer out there to put in my freezer I saw what the wolfs did to the deer numbers back then.

Know the deer population on the island over the past 20 years have made a good comeback the reason for this is the wolf numbers are low in numbers bottom line big numbers of prey in a region low numbers of game animals just a matter of a few years wolves hammering the deer there will be low numbers of deer elk.

I know a good friend that has hunted kaslo region 4-18 over the past 8 years they saw very few wolf tracks over the years they hunted this area over the past 8 years..

Again this year they hunted the same area he said that they went home with the big skunk he told me that the tree of them saw dozens of wolf scats everywhere and a couple mule deer that had been killed by predators wolf tracks all around the kill as for wolf scats..

He told me he will not go back to this area again ,,after the wolfs take the numbers of prey out the will move on till they find more prey animals the wolves are just like a vacuum cleaner taking many deer elk of an area before they move on..