Moronic regulations proposal

[Eastbranch]

It's that time of the year.

If the 'stakeholders' in this rationale are the SCWA, I can only shake my head. Ken Child must be bashing his head on a wall somewhere. The 7A calf season is, was, and always will be sustainable. We want to 'feel' like we're doing something even though we know the effect of the change won't accomplish anything? Wow.

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/hunting/youthsenior-omineca-calf-moose-season

[bcmulie]

So they are proposing to restrict a sustainable hunt (reduce hunter opportunity) even though this will have little or no impact on moose populations so that it "seems like" they are taking action (even though they really aren't)?!?! I'm with you, AR.

[The Dawg]

I don't see an issue with this at all.

Ive spent a LOT more time in the field this year, and I can count on one hand how many cow moose Ive seen, and I have not seen a single calf moose.

This is all within 2 hours of PG.

Its been a long time coming in my opinion.

[bcmulie]

If moose populations are down, then I agree we should take action. But it should be meaningful action, not action that just makes it look like we are doing something when really we aren't. My understanding is that the highest winter mortality is among calves, so allowing a calf season has less impact on populations than other harvests (cows in particular).

[Eastbranch]

^ Exactly. The fancy name for it is compensatory mortality.

There are lots of cows and calves in the PG area. They're just hard to see through the windshield of an F150.

What they should be doing is curtailing the cow LEH permits in core habitat areas which would promote the re-seeding of areas hammered by logging and increased access. It would likely require the creative delineation of smaller sub-zones within MUs, but it could be done. This regulation is just ridiculous.

[GoatGuy]

1) Hunters think trivial regulation changes will increase wildlife populations
2) Hunters don't believe habitat quality/quantity affects populations
3) Hunters believe wildlife managers have some form of control over populations
4) Hunters believe yelling at wildlife managers will increase wildlife populations
5) Hunters believe MLAs and a chronic funding shortage doesn't effect wildlife populations
6) Hunters believe their hunting license came with a Masters in Wildlife Management
7) Hunters believe wildlife are like cattle


and finally

8) Hunters believe sitting at home or hanging out at Tim Horton's and complaining will change wildlife populations


The problems with wildlife management in BC is related to four things:

Funding
Habitat enhancement
Predator management
Political will

All four of those can and will only come from hunters - no one else will do it for you.

If folks want to get some results get a hold of your MLA - don't talk about hunting regulations, that will get you nowhere, talk about those four things.

[40incher]

Killing baby moose makes no sense at all, unless you have an overpopulation of the species. We are far from that!!

Why kill your up and coming bulls and cows?

I would not give another penny of money to fund the dysfunctional "wildlife management" in BC. It's a joke.

[kyleklassen]

because there are no moose in reg 6??

[RustyRipper]

.Killing baby moose makes no sense at all, unless you have an overpopulation of the species. We are far from that!!

Why kill your up and coming bulls and cows?

Not necessarily true. Best way to decrease a population is to kill the baby makers not the babies. A calf season is way less damaging to a species than a cow season.

[Spy]

Not necessarily true. Best way to decrease a population is to kill the baby makers not the babies. A calf season is way less damaging to a species than a cow season.
Shut them both down, want the population to go up stop shooting cows & calves. No brainer! No bag limit on wolves!

[brian]

Although stakeholders acknowledge that the current calf seasons are sustainable and the net effect of this change on moose population growth will be neutral or have only a slight positive impact, this change will demonstrate that action is being taken in response to the decline in moose numbers.

I can't believe I actually read this in a proposed regulation change! It'll have no real effect but hey, it'll make it look like we're doing something! Wow.

[Brett]

this is what should have happened 2 seasons ago!! I think this and the COW cuts they made are the best thing they cold do for the population. They have already cut back the cow LEH now cut back the calfs and the numbers WILL go up. this is my opinion, your all entitled to your own wrong one!

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks for posting this info. I wonder a couple things. First, like Arctic Red, who are the stakeholders? Second, how does the decision get made? Who's the decision maker in the final analysis?

I think like many I'll be very interested to find out what this moose collaring program reveals. We got our bull this year based on working a plan from last year (scouted the area, found the moose, put in for the LEH, etc. etc), but we also heard and saw tracks of a lot of wolves and I'm worried that next year it might be a different story. BTW, we left an immy up there to get bigger rather than going back for him, so I really hope we can figure out this moose die off.

[257stew]

this is what should have happened 2 seasons ago!! I think this and the COW cuts they made are the best thing they cold do for the population. They have already cut back the cow LEH now cut back the calf's and the numbers WILL go up. this is my opinion, your all entitled to your own wrong one!


+1 I agree, at least they are still allowing youth and seniors to hunt them, which is a good thing.

[Jagermeister]

I think that I will just sit on the fence.
Certainly reducing the calf kill will eventually benefit the ratio for spike/fork horns and holders of a LEH for that region. The impact will not be seen next season, but it could for the season after that.
The other thing is it will disperse the hunters into other time blocks from the current congregation fest in the middle of October.

[goatdancer]

Jeez. The kids and us old farts need a break. It's getting harder to go way back in the bush and pack out critters.

[ARC]

I can't believe I actually read this in a proposed regulation change! It'll have no real effect but hey, it'll make it look like we're doing something! Wow.

I'm with you. I almost thought it was a joke when I first read it.....'it won't make a difference, but it will give the appearance that we are doing something'....really? I would prefer that the science rule out.

[aggiehunter]

Goatguy is right...shooting a whole bunch of calves will NOT help the mystery of the disappearing moose...is that what he said?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Calf harvest in previous years was a whopping 2%.

Won't make any difference in the population trend.

SSS

[40incher]

The real numbers always show the truth. Too bad the bureaucrats won't stick to the facts instead of pushing an agenda.

Calf hunting (at 60-80 pounds of tasteless meat, as compared to 300 pounds of tasty meat a year later), begs the question why are we hunting calves that have survived for the four-most-difficult-month portions on their lives??? When they make it to fall their survivals are excellent, despite what the "experts" have to say. Most of them die in the first two weeks of life. Bear, wolves, wolverine, etc ... This is not rocket science ...

Killing calf moose, or cow moose with calves at their side, when we are not in a population explosion makes "NO" sense!!! Let's get back to common reality for a cycle or two and see what happens ...

It's a no-brainer.

[Gateholio]

Hunters shooting calves makes no difference to the overall moose population.

[MRP]

To save the none endangered black bears they came up with the rule not to shoot moms or cubs. Why would this not make sense for moose too.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

The real numbers always show the truth. Too bad the bureaucrats won't stick to the facts instead of pushing an agenda.

Calf hunting (at 60-80 pounds of tasteless meat, as compared to 300 pounds of tasty meat a year later), begs the question why are we hunting calves that have survived for the four-most-difficult-month portions on their lives??? When they make it to fall their survivals are excellent, despite what the "experts" have to say. Most of them die in the first two weeks of life. Bear, wolves, wolverine, etc ... This is not rocket science ...

Killing calf moose, or cow moose with calves at their side, when we are not in a population explosion makes "NO" sense!!! Let's get back to common reality for a cycle or two and see what happens ...

It's a no-brainer.

WELL put!! 40 incher

[Spy]

Hunters shooting calves makes no difference to the overall moose population.
Back that up with some scince. Common sense says the more calves & cows you shoot the fewer moose there will be. I cant seem to grasp the rationale behind shooting calves when we have an obvious decline in overall moose numbers.

[r106]

I'll always want regulations based on science and facts not emotion, even when I don't understand or agree with it. The FACTS of the cow/calf harvest have been posted here before.

How long has the cow calf season been around?

[Gateholio]

Back that up with some scince. Common sense says the more calves & cows you shoot the fewer moose there will be. I cant seem to grasp the rationale behind shooting calves when we have an obvious decline in overall moose numbers.

How many times does the science need to be posted here? Hunters shoot fairly few calves. The few that get shot by hunters doesn't make an impact. Other factors (listed above by goat guy) make a much bigger impact.

[aggiehunter]

"I'm not seeing hardly any moose, where's my LEH calf tag?" hurrumph....

[Island Redneck]

How many times does the science need to be posted here? Hunters shoot fairly few calves. The few that get shot by hunters doesn't make an impact. Other factors (listed above by goat guy) make a much bigger impact.

Science or Science fiction?? A percentage of the calves are shot in area's that have a gos. for calves and when the population is in decline even killing a moderate percentage of the breeding population is harmfull.

[Gateholio]

Science or Science fiction?? A percentage of the calves are shot in area's that have a gos. for calves and when the population is in decline even killing a moderate percentage of the breeding population is harmfull.

If the population is in trouble, stop all moose hunting.

[GoatGuy]

How many times does the science need to be posted here? Hunters shoot fairly few calves. The few that get shot by hunters doesn't make an impact. Other factors (listed above by goat guy) make a much bigger impact.
There are a lot of people who are into unfounded beliefs instead of science. At one point we were burning witches and thought the world was flat; fortunately there were enough people who supported science and those beliefs have generally been changed (although not totally).

nothing you can do in this case ...

[Island Redneck]

If the population is in trouble, stop all moose hunting.

I can live with that;, but it would make more sense to stop all cow, calf hunting and have a gos. on imature bulls, that way more females would be around to reproduce and there would be more imatures bulls around to harvest, after a few years the harvest rate would be the same and there would be more producing females.

[Brett]

2% calf harvest ( yah for the Provence, but they are all taken from one area!) 2% of total moose numbers.??

Anyway!

How many people will put in for moose here without the opportunity for a calf??!! People will spread out a bit instead of congregating in 7a

[RiverOtter]

So putting hunters on the sidelines, while doing nothing for the wolf population explosion is the answer........??

Personally, I'd rather see moose meat make it to a dinner table than into the bellies of a pack of wolves. "Stock Piling" is not an option with current wolf pops, and if the gov't won't commit to a concerted effort on a wolf cull, the end result for moose is pretty dismal.

[Eastbranch]

Every number in that post is a fabrication of a very inebriated mind.

Jesse why dont you post something helpful instead of your usual mumblespeak. For being the guy always concerned with hunter opportunity you dont seem to care much about this. Ill just assume youre dumbstruck by the insane rationale? lol

[Spy]

Every number in that post is a fabrication of a very inebriated mind.

Jesse why dont you post something helpful instead of your usual mumblespeak. For being the guy always concerned with hunter opportunity you dont seem to care much about this. Ill just assume youre dumbstruck by the insane rationale? lol
If thats the case why dont you put the percentages together & see how many calves remain. We cant control the wolf,bear, decease & natives but we can control us. I have said it before shut the hunt down if it is a conservation concern. For all user groups.

[flyboy]

okay just to be clear, for all the people that say shutdown the calf hunt, is that still your belief if the BC Gov says they will shut down the calf hunt to all hunters except first nations?

I am interested to see if you change your position on calf hunting or if you would be good with that decision??? One step further, all those in favor of total moose hunt ban, are you still okay with only banning hunters and not first nations????

[Piperdown]

Shut them both down, want the population to go up stop shooting cows & calves. No brainer! No bag limit on wolves!

BINGO we have a winner!

[BULLNUTTS]

I live in south ominica . I also work forestry day in day out,so have been"out" there for over 13 yrs now in that area.I have also hunted and fished the same area.There can be no question the numbers are WAY down from what they used to be.Some areas less than 10 % moose that used to have.Some of the ones you do see are stretched out like "ol Seabiscut" running like the devils bitin their ass!!! Some areas are almost devoid of life now- be it habitat loss or whatever.To the moose closures- LONG overdue! Previous years saw huge hunting camps set up in southern ominica a regular thing [ as was always , an we all must get out on the hunt] but as cows became harder to harvest more an more started to take calves as well.Manny times i can recall seeing calf hides layed out like wolf pelts,6-8 at a time and wondered just how long that could last.
Just this yr I saw a cow/calf pair and as i watched them [just happened to be on a road at the time] other hunters arrived.As I was there first I chose to pass on the calf [was a small baby cow calf too] ALL agreed to let them live,with the same thoughts of sparce moose numbers now throughout the area.That was a refreshing moment.We all left there that day feeling a little better about ourselves ,that as sportman we could "limit our catch" and hopefully still"catch our limit",and with hopes others would do the same for the pair.
It would be so very nice to again see moose numbers like they used to be throughout the area.To be able to have folks harvest there moose sleeping on the banks of the roads,passing on the ones more than 50 yrd from the road.Having to drive slowly to your hunting spots because or else would surely hit a moose in the dark.
I'm not a supporter of the calf hunt [ as you could have figuered]- just seems unsustainable to hunt anything before its had chance to get some eat on its bones and maybe reproduce itself and personally i have never shot a cow either as i look at it as shooting more than one but all the offspring too-but thats my way.
Hopefully the powers at be can see the trouble the moose are in here and do something strong to attend this before we end up in a total limited draw situation [which is where we are heading,and not that far off] at least for lots of southern ominica if numbers continue to fall as they are now.

[kgs]

I would rather see a out right ban on calf's and cows for a period of time just to help bring the numbers up but at the same time I do not want access to be restricted to only a small select group of hunters. I believe there is a crisis in the moose population as this year I saw only 10 cows from sept to the end of oct. My opinion on why the numbers are down are simple and may be some what controversial. But where I think the real issue is in hunters, I have seen an explosion in the number of hunters in the last ten years they are everywhere good or bad this is an issue.

First you take in account the predators such as wolves and bears.

Second the management of the moose population by the bc government is lacking by inaccurate counts and not reducing limited entries to reflect that or reducing hunting opportunities in areas that require it.

Third hunter ethics almost non existence for example and we all know some of these hunters who kill whatever they see then call a buddy to cut their tags happens all the time more than we would like to admit.

Forth the rual hunter who has moose show up on his property and shoots it almost always it an illegal kill, but as someone pointed out once its cut up and in your freezer its hard to tell what it is and when was the last time a CO showed up on your property.

Fifth are the crazy hunters who shoot first and identify later and leave the dead moose where it dropped and they never call it in or cut their tags.

Sixth is the out right poacher.

Seventh is when a hunter calls on his native buddy to help him get a moose this happens more than you would like to think and you have people applying for a status card strictly for the purpose to do the same thing.

Eighth is the hunters who do not follow the hunting regulations where to hunt, ATV usage times or ignore no hunting and no trespassing signs just a general lack of respect for the regulations.

Nineth there are no CO's around ever I have only seen them twice in 10 years of hunting someones got to be out there policing or its a free for all like it is now.

Tenth Hunters who drink and do drugs while hunting wow how many times have I seen a beer in the hands of a hunter or smelled the reek of dope on their person or coming from their truck. I do not understand this as guns and beer and drugs do not mix period. But it seems to be the norm for a lot of hunters out there.

My point here is that we have a lot of unethical hunters out there and I strongly believe this is where the problem is with the low moose population. I am not saying that there is not great hunters out there I am saying there is a lot of bad hunters out there and you know who you are and the shame is you are teaching the next generation of hunters the same warp ethics. Some may disagree with me but take a good look around at the hunters you have met and listen to whats being said. We all know some hunter out there who crosses the line or simply does not have good hunting ethics.

[Spy]

[QUOTE=kgs;1416909]I would rather see a out right ban on calf's and cows for a period of time just to help bring the numbers up but at the same time I do not want access to be restricted to only a small select group of hunters. I believe there is a crisis in the moose population as this year I saw only 10 cows from sept to the end of oct. My opinion on why the numbers are down are simple and may be some what controversial. But where I think the real issue is in hunters, I have seen an explosion in the number of hunters in the last ten years they are everywhere good or bad this is an issue.

First you take in account the predators such as wolves and bears.

Second the management of the moose population by the bc government is lacking by inaccurate counts and not reducing limited entries to reflect that or reducing hunting opportunities in areas that require it.

Third hunter ethics almost non existence for example and we all know some of these hunters who kill whatever they see then call a buddy to cut their tags happens all the time more than we would like to admit.

Forth the rual hunter who has moose show up on his property and shoots it almost always it an illegal kill, but as someone pointed out once its cut up and in your freezer its hard to tell what it is and when was the last time a CO showed up on your property.

Fifth are the crazy hunters who shoot first and identify later and leave the dead moose where it dropped and they never call it in or cut their tags.

Sixth is the out right poacher.

Seventh is when a hunter calls on his native buddy to help him get a moose this happens more than you would like to think and you have people applying for a status card strictly for the purpose to do the same thing.

Eighth is the hunters who do not follow the hunting regulations where to hunt, ATV usage times or ignore no hunting and no trespassing signs just a general lack of respect for the regulations.

Nineth there are no CO's around ever I have only seen them twice in 10 years of hunting someones got to be out there policing or its a free for all like it is now.

Tenth Hunters who drink and do drugs while hunting wow how many times have I seen a beer in the hands of a hunter or smelled the reek of dope on their person or coming from their truck. I do not understand this as guns and beer and drugs do not mix period. But it seems to be the norm for a lot of hunters out there.

My point here is that we have a lot of unethical hunters out there and I strongly believe this is where the problem is with the low moose population. I am not saying that there is not great hunters out there I am saying there is a lot of bad hunters out there and you know who you are and the shame is you are teaching the next generation of hunters the same warp ethics. Some may disagree with me but take a good look around at the hunters you have met and listen to whats being said. We all know some hunter out there who crosses the line or simply does not have good hunting

You sir are right on the money. I have had the unfortunate experience of been in a moose camp with a guy/ poacher/ piss cat with no ethics. I will never speak to him again, i even dropped out of the club he was a member of.
This year I heard the same horror stories, of a guy shooting at a calf 100's of yards away, over a lake. Hours later when they managed to hike around the lake, the calf was still there screaming, cause the ass hat hit it in the foot.Makes my blood boil when I hear these stories & we have all heard them. Hunters my ass.

[r106]

Shoot 90% of the moose for human tables. Let the wolfs starve to death and then rebuild.

Or the province AND HUNTERS should do something to keep predator #'s down. I hope to get out and try to bag some wolfs this winter in reg 3

[killman]

So region 5 population is dropped as well? What is their open seasons on moose again? Calves?
Hmmm.....sorry not buying it. How moose are killed by trains and vehicles? Am betting more than hunters take....
I have seen more moose in the last two weeks of deer hunting than I have seen deer. Actually more moose than I usually see all year.

[Ambush]

I've never shot a calf and only one cow, years ago, so maybe I don't have much stake in that part of it.

If there is a benefit, to the 7A moose population, then it will be collateral. Without the GOS on calves and with the poor outlook that most have on the chances of an immature bull, many non-local hunters won't bother putting in LEH for reg 7. So the concentration of hunters here for that few weeks will be less. Five or six guys are not going to come up and help buddy who has the only tag if they have no chance at something themselves. Or possibly shared hunts will become more popular, which is good anyway. Fewer moose die and more people get to hunt.

When Ontario's moose population floundered many years ago, it became law that one tag belonged to two people. It was still OTC, but had to have two licence numbers. Of course some still cheated, but most followed the regulation willingly. Today, Ontario is a moose hunting destination.

I know it's not as simple as "shoot fewer moose" and nobody wants to lose opportunity, but does come to a point where the status quo becomes unrealistic.

Region 7 is no longer the "Meat Hole". I saw lot's of moose here this year, cows, calves and bulls, but they do seem to be in strategic pockets, not wide spread like ten years ago. I don't hunt moose locally anymore and don't put my LEH in for here either. I have other spots that I much prefer to hunt and that are more "plan-able".

The same spots got hammered year after year because at one time time they produced and the legend outlived the reality. I used to see big camps in every big pullout and gravel pit on some of the main forestry roads every year. Several trucks/trailers, wall tents, ten guys and ten quads. Just by luck, some of those camps were wildly successful. Full meat poles and quads with racks bungeed to the front. That was the scene that kept the others coming back and others following in their foot steps. The gold rush mentality. But the easy pickings are gone and whats left is more off the beaten path.

You HAVE to kill wolves to maintain the high levels of moose we used to enjoy. But you HAVE to kill black bears as well. Whether a calf gets eaten in the winter by wolves or in the spring by bears makes no difference to the outcome of the moose population. The biologist in this region used to peg the bear caused calf mortality at 40%. IMO black bears in the moose producing regions should be managed as predators.

Twenty five years ago, I was allowed five BB tags and no requirement to take anything. Then it became mandatory to take hide or meat. Bear kills dropped. Then the law changed to mandate the removal of the meat. The number of bears killed didn't just drop, it plummeted!! Bear numbers have steadily climbed while moose numbers have declined.

With today's political climate and society being run by misinformation we will not have a science based response to the real issues.

So get ready to have your hunting opportunities dwindle, yet again, so someone, somewhere, can say he's doing something.

[ryanhuntslots]

This year on Maylong weekend I saw 5 cows, no calves. I also saw 9 grizzly bears. Now that number includes cubs, but that is still a lot of g bears and no calves in the same area. Safe to say the bears are eating a lot of calves, blackies and wolves aswell. So that being the case, giving calves the best chance at survival we can would include predator control for one, but also keeping our bullets out of them is a start too. Like others here, I have never shot a calf, nor have I put in for a cow draw. That my choice and my moral. So closing those seasons does not effect my hunting plans, maybe there will even be less garbage and plastic wall tents left behind by the big 10 man camps that are so common during that season.

[GoatGuy]

You have a harvest strategy that's been sustainable for over 30 years, back when there were twice as many hunters and in the last couple years the moose population has crashed (with half the hunters) and that's because of the harvest strategy? Because half the hunters are shooting cows and calves in 7a?

You also have surrounding Mus and regions that have experienced similar declines and they have had bull only leh and bull leh/gos immature since the 90s and the problem is still the cow /calf harvest in 7a?

Does that mean that the moose population migrates between the north Thompson and the Williston lake? Because there are half the hunters compared to the 80s and someone shot a calf moose in Prince George we wiped out half the moose population on the Bonaparte plateau?

Seriously folks this is one of the most dissapointing threads of all time on HBC. People need to start to really thinking about what is happening and why. Some of this rationale is so illogical it's actually unbelievable. This is like putting a band-aid on your chest when you're having a massive heartattack: "that ought to fix it."

thr funny part about it is hunters could possibly be one of the biggest impediments to recovery of moose populations in central BC but it isn't because of the hunting regulations: it's because they were busy talking about hunting regulations instead of worrying about making more moose.

[GoatGuy]

Every number in that post is a fabrication of a very inebriated mind.

Jesse why dont you post something helpful instead of your usual mumblespeak. For being the guy always concerned with hunter opportunity you dont seem to care much about this. Ill just assume youre dumbstruck by the insane rationale? lol
Don't typically entertain the folks with formal training and a 'science when it suits me' attitude. Best left to raincoast et al.

[adriaticum]

I've never shot a calf and only one cow, years ago, so maybe I don't have much stake in that part of it.

If there is a benefit, to the 7A moose population, then it will be collateral. Without the GOS on calves and with the poor outlook that most have on the chances of an immature bull, many non-local hunters won't bother putting in LEH for reg 7. So the concentration of hunters here for that few weeks will be less. Five or six guys are not going to come up and help buddy who has the only tag if they have no chance at something themselves. Or possibly shared hunts will become more popular, which is good anyway. Fewer moose die and more people get to hunt.

When Ontario's moose population floundered many years ago, it became law that one tag belonged to two people. It was still OTC, but had to have two licence numbers. Of course some still cheated, but most followed the regulation willingly. Today, Ontario is a moose hunting destination.

I know it's not as simple as "shoot fewer moose" and nobody wants to lose opportunity, but does come to a point where the status quo becomes unrealistic.

Region 7 is no longer the "Meat Hole". I saw lot's of moose here this year, cows, calves and bulls, but they do seem to be in strategic pockets, not wide spread like ten years ago. I don't hunt moose locally anymore and don't put my LEH in for here either. I have other spots that I much prefer to hunt and that are more "plan-able".

The same spots got hammered year after year because at one time time they produced and the legend outlived the reality. I used to see big camps in every big pullout and gravel pit on some of the main forestry roads every year. Several trucks/trailers, wall tents, ten guys and ten quads. Just by luck, some of those camps were wildly successful. Full meat poles and quads with racks bungeed to the front. That was the scene that kept the others coming back and others following in their foot steps. The gold rush mentality. But the easy pickings are gone and whats left is more off the beaten path.

You HAVE to kill wolves to maintain the high levels of moose we used to enjoy. But you HAVE to kill black bears as well. Whether a calf gets eaten in the winter by wolves or in the spring by bears makes no difference to the outcome of the moose population. The biologist in this region used to peg the bear caused calf mortality at 40%. IMO black bears in the moose producing regions should be managed as predators.

Twenty five years ago, I was allowed five BB tags and no requirement to take anything. Then it became mandatory to take hide or meat. Bear kills dropped. Then the law changed to mandate the removal of the meat. The number of bears killed didn't just drop, it plummeted!! Bear numbers have steadily climbed while moose numbers have declined.

With today's political climate and society being run by misinformation we will not have a science based response to the real issues.

So get ready to have your hunting opportunities dwindle, yet again, so someone, somewhere, can say he's doing something.




I'd go with that, well said.

[Ambush]

People need to start to really thinking about what is happening and why.

Would you please make three clear, concise statements that outline what you believe to be the primary cause of the moose decline in region 7A. The top three reasons.

You can add the remedy to if it is not apparent.

[GoatGuy]

Would you please make three clear, concise statements that outline what you believe to be the primary cause of the moose decline in region 7A. The top three reasons.

You can add the remedy to if it is not apparent.

Salvage logging and wolves

[Ambush]

Salvage logging and wolves

Thanks. Yes, it is somewhat ironic that logging, in years past, was largely responsible for the huge surge in the moose population in 7A. Even the "clearcut that could be seen from space" [Bowron Burn] within a few years became a great moose producer.

I guess the wolves have an easier time cleaning out small pockets of moose and then moving on to the next oasis. But the beetle "deserts" will grow in. I just wish that they would quit spraying herbicides on an area as soon as the feed is prime to support a stable population.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks. Yes, it is somewhat ironic that logging, in years past, was largely responsible for the huge surge in the moose population in 7A. Even the "clearcut that could be seen from space" [Bowron Burn] within a few years became a great moose producer.

I guess the wolves have an easier time cleaning out small pockets of moose and then moving on to the next oasis. But the beetle "deserts" will grow in. I just wish that they would quit spraying herbicides on an area as soon as the feed is prime to support a stable population.
There are cumulative impacts and externalities from salvage logging. The relationship isn't that simple.

[bigwhiteys]

After shooting a young bull/calf moose and getting a couple hundred pounds of meat when all was said and done... No thanks, I won't ever kill one again. It wasn't worth it. Now it's only big, stinky bulls for my family. Calf/Cow seasons should be for youth and seniors or people that only want a Moose appetizer. I understand that calves have the highest mortality, so how does killing them first help that? How do we know the calf we're shooting was doomed or would have made the winter? How do we know if it's a young bull or a cow? Surely it's not in our best interest to kill the up and coming cows? It's like playing god and historically we're just really bad at that. Those are my other issues with killing baby Moose.


This regulation change is in line with two of the five objectives from the plan: 5) Social responsibility: Promote a feeling of action and responsibility and involvement by invoking change, participating in management decisions and feel like they are “doing something”, and 1) Increase moose numbers.

Wow, "feel like they are doing something".... lol... Not funny actually. Aerial killing and poison for the wolves worked a long time ago, much tougher for the public to swallow. Limit first nation harvest, LOL.

[Eastbranch]

Salvage logging and wolves

And herbicide.

[Spy]

And herbicide.
What kind of herbicide are we taliking about? Anyone got any more info on what they are spraying? I agree, beers wolves, natives & hunters are all part of the problem. Sounds like we all agree moose numbers are down.

[killman]

Another moose hit truck in the shop today.... Do you guys realize how many we see in a year. I can't imagine the amount that trains kill.
Yet not one mention of it......

[Eastbranch]

Another moose hit truck in the shop today.... Do you guys realize how many we see in a year. I can't imagine the amount that trains kill.
Yet not one mention of it......

Trains and trucks have been consistent for 30 years. Doesn't explain the recent decline. The only thing that does is the huge increase in 'salvage' logging. A lot of that happened in core areas. Core areas act as seed areas for producing new moose into marginal or cut-back habitat where they do well but are harvested at a higher rate. When the salvage logging really opened up new core areas, we stopped shooting surplus and started eating into the capital. More access for everyone equals more dead moose. Shooting calves for 15 days doesn't matter. The cow draws have to go.

Kind of pointless to keep defending the calf hunt when the regulations proposal itself says shooting calves doesn't hurt the moose population. We know that already. What's insane is reducing hunter opportunity so a bunch of calf loving yuppies can sleep sound at night knowing their babies are safe (getting ripped apart by wolves instead of enjoyed at a dinner table).

As to the size argument and "theres no meat on a calf" garbage .... well we better just close all the deer seasons then....jesus.

[GoatGuy]

After shooting a young bull/calf moose and getting a couple hundred pounds of meat when all was said and done... No thanks, I won't ever kill one again. It wasn't worth it. Now it's only big, stinky bulls for my family. Calf/Cow seasons should be for youth and seniors or people that only want a Moose appetizer. I understand that calves have the highest mortality, so how does killing them first help that? How do we know the calf we're shooting was doomed or would have made the winter? How do we know if it's a young bull or a cow? Surely it's not in our best interest to kill the up and coming cows? It's like playing god and historically we're just really bad at that. Those are my other issues with killing baby Moose.



Wow, "feel like they are doing something".... lol... Not funny actually. Aerial killing and poison for the wolves worked a long time ago, much tougher for the public to swallow. Limit first nation harvest, LOL.

I suppose you've never shot anything smaller than a calf moose then?

Anyways, here's a bit of coffee table reading for folks.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=52
http://www.idahoforwildlife.com/Website%20articles/Dr%20Geist/When%20ignorance%20is%20bliss.html

[Spy]

[QUOTE=ArcticRed;1417464]Trains and trucks have been consistent for 30 years. Doesn't explain the recent decline. The only thing that does is the huge increase in 'salvage' logging. A lot of that happened in core areas. Core areas act as seed areas for producing new moose into marginal or cut-back habitat where they do well but are harvested at a higher rate. When the salvage logging really opened up new core areas, we stopped shooting surplus and started eating into the capital. More access for everyone equals more dead moose. Shooting calves for 15 days doesn't matter. The cow draws have to go.

Kind of pointless to keep defending the calf hunt when the regulations proposal itself says shooting calves doesn't hurt the moose population. We know that already. What's insane is reducing hunter opportunity so a bunch of calf loving yuppies can sleep sound at night knowing their babies are safe (getting ripped apart by wolves instead of enjoyed at a dinner table).

As to the size argument and "theres no meat on a calf" garbage .... well we better just close all the deer seasons then....jesus.[/QUOTE
Nobody is saying there is no meat on a calf, there is just alot more on a bull. So if we shoot calves then we should also be able to shoot deer fawns to? Whats wrong with giveing a calf a chance to grow up. Your reasoning for shooting calves & keeping the season open is flawed. Kill off all the new borns it will save the moose population. What alot of moose shit.

[GoatGuy]

Compensatory vs additive mortality

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/fw662/web_docs/Lecture%207%20Compensatory%20mortality.pdf

[GoatGuy]

Bit from Ontario

http://people.trentu.ca/brentpatterson/Index_files/Patterson%20et%20al%202013%20-%20moose%20calf%20mortality.pdf

[bigwhiteys]

I suppose you've never shot anything smaller than a calf moose then?

Yeah, Blacktail. But they aren't having sustainability issues right now like Moose. They also don't cost a couple grand in fuel, food, accommodations and travel to hunt. So no, it's not worth it for me to go and shoot a calf moose. I would be better off financially buying beef from a local rancher so would most people if they are only after a calf worth of meat.

[Spy]

GG you cant use those formulas when you have a predator problem that is out of control & natives that hunt anything day & night. Those formulas work, agreed when all factors are balanced, not when everything is out of whack. Shooting calves & cows now is not going to help an already dire situation.

[GoatGuy]

Yeah, Blacktail. But they aren't having sustainability issues right now like Moose. They also don't cost a couple grand in fuel, food, accommodations and travel to hunt. So no, it's not worth it for me to go and shoot a calf moose. I would be better off financially buying beef from a local rancher so would most people if they are only after a calf worth of meat.

The black-tail population already crashed and hasn't ever come close to historic populations. You're probably at much less than half of the population in the 70s on VI..... so if 'sustainability' issues are your issue you shouldn't be hunting them either....... but you do...........

You would be financially better off not hunting - the rationale between hunting a calf and hunting a bull due to the size as a cost/benefit function as rationale is ridiculous. This coming from the same guy that goes up north for sheep, right?????

These aren't defensible arguments and you know it. Quit being silly. :-D

[GoatGuy]

GG you cant use those formulas when you have a predator problem that is out of control & natives that hunt anything day & night. Those formulas work, agreed when all factors are balanced, not when everything is out of whack. Shooting calves & cows now is not going to help an already dire situation.

Personally, more focused on fixing the problem than dealing with the hunting regulation BS on this one.

Per the usual people are wasting their time, thinking changing the hunting season will save the population - it won't. The science is already there for this opportunity. If we don't get fixated on real solutions the moose will follow the caribou, lots, many, hunting closure, few, dissapear.

To be honest in some places, like region 5 this is actually the third major population decline - unfortunately hunters quickly forget that they were harvesting 3000 moose out of the cariboo in the 80s, that number will now be around 500............ and guess what they complained about in the early 80s, when they were harvesting 3000+ moose, the 250 cow/calf harvest ........ and when you look at the habitat reports it was hammered back then.

It's the same with the folks in the EK who are crying about all the hunting seasons ruining wildlife populations. Hear all the complaints about the any buck season ruining mule deer populations. Funny, when you talk to the managers who implemented the original 4 pts season it was only to create additional opportunity. Those areas used to support any buck all the way to Nov 30 with twice the hunters and had way more deer and hunters shot more big bucks - now we must have 4 pts reg all season for half the hunters???? And the knuckle draggers will tell you habitat and predation isn't the problem? Now with half the hunters we must restrict the hunting season even more because it's killing off mule deer? Are these people for real? "There's lots of food out there"...:confused:

It is just a complete and total shame and waste of time. All lot of the folks with this 'hunting regulation changes will increase the population' are simply out of touch and have been getting in the way of wildlife management and increasing wildlife populations for an entire generation. It looks like the only hunters with a brain are the ones who started DU and look at what they have now - a duck/goose problem because there are TOO MANY!!!!! All this from saving habitat - wow. The old school 'mental'-ity has handed the up and coming generation of hunters a stinky bag of crap - hopefully the next generation will start to turn its mind to REAL PROBLEMS that effect wildlife.

Sorry to be blunt but hunters need to collectively put their heads out of that dark stinky place and start worrying about the real issues. You need habitat enhancement and predator management to increase wildlife populations PERIOD. You need money and political will for that. To get money/political will you need to go see your MLA. IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Well put GoatGuy!!!!

[Spy]

Personally, more focused on fixing the problem than dealing with the hunting regulation BS on this one.

Per the usual people are wasting their time, thinking changing the hunting season will save the population - it won't. The science is already there for this opportunity. If we don't get fixated on real solutions the moose will follow the caribou, lots, many, hunting closure, few, dissapear.

To be honest in some places, like region 5 this is actually the third major population decline - unfortunately hunters quickly forget that they were harvesting 3000 moose out of the cariboo in the 80s, that number will now be around 500............ and guess what they complained about in the early 80s, when they were harvesting 3000+ moose, the 250 cow/calf harvest ........ and when you look at the habitat reports it was hammered back then.

It's the same with the folks in the EK who are crying about all the hunting seasons ruining wildlife populations. Hear all the complaints about the any buck season ruining mule deer populations. Funny, when you talk to the managers who implemented the original 4 pts season it was only to create additional opportunity. Those areas used to support any buck all the way to Nov 30 with twice the hunters and had way more deer and hunters shot more big bucks - now we must have 4 pts reg all season for half the hunters???? And the knuckle draggers will tell you habitat and predation isn't the problem? Now with half the hunters we must restrict the hunting season even more because it's killing off mule deer? Are these people for real? "There's lots of food out there"...:confused:

It is just a complete and total shame and waste of time. All lot of the folks with this 'hunting regulation changes will increase the population' are simply out of touch and have been getting in the way of wildlife management and increasing wildlife populations for an entire generation. It looks like the only hunters with a brain are the ones who started DU and look at what they have now - a duck/goose problem because there are TOO MANY!!!!! All this from saving habitat - wow. The old school 'mental'-ity has handed the up and coming generation of hunters a stinky bag of crap - hopefully the next generation will start to turn its mind to REAL PROBLEMS that effect wildlife.

Sorry to be blunt but hunters need to collectively put their heads out of that dark stinky place and start worrying about the real issues. You need habitat enhancement and predator management to increase wildlife populations PERIOD. You need money and political will for that. To get money/political will you need to go see your MLA. IT IS THAT SIMPLE!
I do agree with you & see what you are saying about the closure, that will likely never open again.My reasoning is can we as hunters afford to be shooting calves & cows right now? Keep the season, but than we the "real" stewards of the land, have to show some restrain.

[Gateholio]

I'm glad you finally stopped pulling the punches Goat Guy. It's time to look at what is really hurting the ungulate population.

[GoatGuy]

I do agree with you & see what you are saying about the closure, that will likely never open again.My reasoning is can we as hunters afford to be shooting calves & cows right now? Keep the season, but than we the "real" stewards of the land, have to show some restrain.

The 'season' is trivial. This is more of a how you split the pie instead of trying to make the pie bigger approach.

Unregulated harvest has occurred for decades. While it might have increased, and be contributory in some spots due to increased access from salvage logging it probably isn't the smoking gun particularly when you consider this is happening across most of central BC (Regions 3N, 5, 7a). And if its 'hunters' goal to reduce unregulated and regulated harvest they should be pushing for access restrictions. Now, look up all the people who want to restrict hunting regulations, yet don't want to limit access. Apparently everyone should have reduced opportunity but there is no way you can take away my God given right to drive a quad. Funny, eh? "Conservation, unless it affects me".....

At the end of this we'll probably find that moose are being eaten by wolves and that salvage logging has resulted in significantly increased predation risk and mortality. Your options are to wait for the results, complain on HBC about the hunting regulations (I'm sure the 2 pts season will be the next thing people want zapped) or start complaining to your MLA about funding, habitat enhancement and predator management. One of those will increase the moose population and your hunting opportunities and one will guarantee to limit them.

I don't think we can call anyone 'stewards of the land' at this point.

[boxhitch]

but than we the "real" stewards of the land, have to show some restrain. Mixing emotion with science only perpetuates the idea hunters have an impact. Doing something just cause it feels good may be ok at a personal level , but changing a reg for everyone when it is not necessary only muddies the situation.

[aggiehunter]

someone has to make up their minds...in one breath hunters are the great purveyors of wildlife and are needed to balance populations...plus we put money back into the coffers...next breath...hunters have no impact on wildlife numbers......cheesh....

[GoatGuy]

someone has to make up their minds...in one breath hunters are the great purveyors of wildlife and are needed to balance populations...plus we put money back into the coffers...next breath...hunters have no impact on wildlife numbers......cheesh....

Very few species and hunts that actually manage wildlife nowadays. Unless it has a female component it isn't really 'management'.

[Eastbranch]

I knew you had it in you somewhere, lol

[Doublelung]

Don't worry two point seasons are going to be reduce/shortened to slow the harvest. The big one I'm waiting for is the closure of moose season in the north. People will scream, some will cry, but in my opionon it's just a matter of time.

[jml11]

What kind of herbicide are we taliking about? Anyone got any more info on what they are spraying? I agree, beers wolves, natives & hunters are all part of the problem. Sounds like we all agree moose numbers are down.

Mostly Glyphosate (Round-up).

[aggiehunter]

DoubleLung, well according to some closing it will do no good!

[GoatGuy]

DoubleLung, well according to some closing it will do no good!

Not 'some', just science.

[Ambush]

Very few species and hunts that actually manage wildlife nowadays. Unless it has a female component it isn't really 'management'.

So, when all is said and done, at the end of the day, it comes down to hunters getting together, getting involved, getting active and lobbying for management that benefits us and wildlife.



Umm, that's too bad, I guess you younger hunters are doomed. At least us older guys have the pics and memories of the good, old days.

[Mr. Dean]

All I can say is, WOW.
Wow wow WOW!

[Doublelung]

My post should have read the general open season.

[jml11]

It seems a lot of people are interested or maybe should be contacting the ministry with their comments. The calf season changes are a proposal right now with the review period closing next month. For all those curious here is a link to all the proposed changes around the province: http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/hunting

Most have a closing date of December 13th and the minisrty is encouraging feedback ---- http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/content/contact-us

[Eastbranch]

Are there any representatives of the BCWF who would like to comment on why they allowed one of their member clubs to support this proposal?? Is it the wild west out there, with the regions not listening to the parent body now? I can't see how the parent BCWF would have supported this proposal.

[GoatGuy]

So let me understand this, two completely different harvest regimes in two regions, one of which has experienced as significant decline in the past couple of years, one which hasn't and we should change the regulations in both?

And what's the plan for Region 5 and 3 which have no cow/calf harvest?

This is a myopic approach to a big picture problem. These are not viable long-term solutions.

[Gateholio]

Are there any representatives of the BCWF who would like to comment on why they allowed one of their member clubs to support this proposal?? Is it the wild west out there, with the regions not listening to the parent body now? I can't see how the parent BCWF would have supported this proposal.

I dont' speak for the BCWF but I do know that the BCWF can't dictate to individual clubs what they can and cannot support.

Usually the BCWF will come to a local club for support on an issue-or vice versa, and the club and/or regional BCWF decide on if they want to give support. But nothing prevents a club from disagreeing with the BCWF and giving their support to something the BCWF doesn't agree with.

[huntwriter]

1) Hunters think trivial regulation changes will increase wildlife populations
2) Hunters don't believe habitat quality/quantity affects populations
3) Hunters believe wildlife managers have some form of control over populations
4) Hunters believe yelling at wildlife managers will increase wildlife populations
5) Hunters believe MLAs and a chronic funding shortage doesn't effect wildlife populations
6) Hunters believe their hunting license came with a Masters in Wildlife Management
7) Hunters believe wildlife are like cattle


and finally

8) Hunters believe sitting at home or hanging out at Tim Horton's and complaining will change wildlife populations


The problems with wildlife management in BC is related to four things:

Funding
Habitat enhancement
Predator management
Political will

All four of those can and will only come from hunters - no one else will do it for you.

If folks want to get some results get a hold of your MLA - don't talk about hunting regulations, that will get you nowhere, talk about those four things.

Bravo. Best post one subject. You nailed it.

[oldersniper]

highest mortality is indian hunting ALL YEAR

[boxhitch]

And you are the authority ? How ?
highest mortality is indian hunting ALL YEARsniping and running

[EvanG]

sooooo... Its safe to say everyone here owns a rifle... and predator calls are pretty cheap. Connect the dots and do your part. Its more effective than bitching on the internet.

[Cordillera]

I had a glass of vino so I am going to dive in.

The problem with shooting single wolves is it might not actually work. Wolves are pack animals (we all know that...). When in a pack, only two adults will breed, which effectively limits the growth of the pack. So, there is lots of research that if you shoot the wrong wolf (alpha male or female), you break up the pack and multiple males/females will now breed. this is problem number 1.

Problem number 2 is that wolf packs that are small actually kill a lot more animals (per capita) than large wolf packs. this is simple; a wolf can only go so many days without food, so they need to eat/kill on a regular interval (several days). However, if they kill an animal, they only eat so much and all the other critters eat the rest. So, a small pack has to kill almost as much as a medium sized pack and on a "per wolf" basis large packs actually do the least damage; the ravens dont' get as much.

there have been several well documented wolf research programs that show if you randomly shoot wolves, you might just cause more wolves to exist in the landscape than if you didn't. If wolf control is to be effective, then you have to remove about 80% of the pack. Otherwise, its cool to have a nice rug, but you are likely not having any effect on the actual population. You might actually make things worse (can you tell which is alpha when you pull the trigger?)

This is an example of how ecosystems are more complex than we think, or sometimes more complex than we can think.

I hope people actually read this and think it through before they flame me in the follow up. I am not a biologist, and I am not a wolf lover, but I have learned that its not as simple as just going out and shooting more wolves. You have to know what you want to accomplish, understand your population, and be careful what you try to do.

[Gamebuster]

Very few species and hunts that actually manage wildlife nowadays. Unless it has a female component it isn't really 'management'.

Just not management to an objective you believe it should be but still management

[scuba]

Best idea they have ever had other than complete cow/calf closure!

[RiverOtter]

Cordillera, are you implying only the alpha female comes into heat...And further, a sub ordinate male will refuse to mate with any hot bitch given the opportunity...?

While the Farely Mowat'esque perspective of wolves is very romantic, I have read several accounts of lone female wolves rearing several litters of pups outside of a pack setting.

[two-feet]

With abundant, high quality habitat the ungulate herds should be able to absorb high levels of predation, including human predation. Maybe when the bug wood cut blocks reach their fullest potential for browse (10-15 years after the cut i think) the moose will have a rebound. Some controlled burns would also create some superior moose habitat. Culling the wolf population would also help but shooting the odd dog wont acomplish this. Our best hope would be for parvo, distemper or some other disease the knock them back a bit. Im going to write my MLA about my desire to see funding for habitat improvement for the moose, I am passionate about the moose hunt and would like to see a strong stable population of moose in BC.

Here is what I am going to do: write my MLA and start a thread on this site where I will post up my letter. Other people can write letters and post them up as well, maybe we can motivate a few people to put the pen to paper?

Stay tuned, I will get to it in the next week or so. Start writing!

[coach]

Great post, two-feet. Efforts like yours will make a difference. We need more people on board the way you are.

[eaglesnester]

anybody that shoots a calf got their head up where the sun dont shine. I live and hunt in in area 7. The populations are down for sure. Why would a mighty hunter shoot a little calf for christ sakes? Let em grow up reproduce then shoot em.

[Fisher-Dude]

What's a mighty hunter? Someone who hunts to prove his manhood to his buddies?

Shooting calves is scientifically proven to have very little impact on the moose population.

[BCrams]

Shooting calves is scientifically proven to have very little impact on the moose population.

This was also stated on the Ministry site:

Although stakeholders acknowledge that the current calf seasons are sustainable and the net effect of this change on moose population growth will be neutral or have only a slight positive impact, this change will demonstrate that action is being taken in response to the decline in moose numbers.

This regulation change is in line with two of the five objectives from the plan: 5) Social responsibility: Promote a feeling of action and responsibility and involvement by invoking change, participating in management decisions and feel like they are “doing something”, and 1) Increase moose numbers.


However, Deaddog might be able to answer why the regional BCWF supported it contrary to the facts.

Neutral to slight .... that's the key word, the slight is so insignificant even the Regional bio knows its insignificant. In actuality, only meets one of the 5 objectives. Instead of pushing for something like this, they should have pushed for more of the positive work that is being done, that's positive action when we all know this 'feel good' action does nothing.

[BCrams]

From the citizen paper a couple days ago. The protective measures in place are reference to the only one thing: restricting the calf moose season.



Although the group is populated by many avid hunters, it was decidedly in favour of protective measures, as well as a scientific investigation of the issue.
"We do feel we've had a fair bit of impact on this," said association president Jim Glaicar, also the Omineca region's president of the pro-hunter BC Wildlife Federation.

I'd like Deaddog (Jim Glaicar) to explain to the hunters on here how these protective measures (calf season) help.

As Goatguy would say - back it up with facts.

(on a positive side note - great work on the other aspects but I think we need to hear the rationale and why you supported the calf moose changes)

[Moose Guide]

If moose populations are down, then I agree we should take action. But it should be meaningful action, not action that just makes it look like we are doing something when really we aren't. My understanding is that the highest winter mortality is among calves, so allowing a calf season has less impact on populations than other harvests (cows in particular).

So you figure that if we kill a bunch of the calves before winter, the wolves will kill less? Wouldn't the harvest numbers need to be added to the winterkill numbers(I just don't believe that the wolves will eat less to maintain a healthy moose population)? I am all for hunter opportunity, but not if the moose population is going down! Goat Guy maintains that ending this season for a few years won't help but I don't understand how more cows having calves won't increase the herd. (As long as we keep predator numbers at a reasonable level) I hope the biologists do a good job, but having worked a little with one here and seeing the damage done locally by 2 others I am always nervous.

[wicket]

funding shortfalls for wildlife are an epidemic...your resident prices are quite low, why not increase tag fees and put that revenue back into fish and wildlife :-D

holy I almost believed that could happen.

47.50 for a res deer tag back here in onterrible, im sure all that money is going where it is most needed within the MNR......:-D damnit I did it again

[markomoose]

Lotsa region 7 folk on here wanting an end to calf season myself included.Never shot a calf never will.

[wicket]

we have a complicated system to draw adult moose tags here invovling 2 pools and min group numbers per tag. we also have an open calf season for those who do not draw a tag. Having gone to fin and feather school with one of the head biologists out of the thunder bay district he has told be many times that shooting calfs has no effect on population growth. In fact many people do pay the ungodly amounts of fuel money to "get up north" so they can participate in the hunt by buying a calf tag if they didnt draw an adult tag. My bio friends biggest concern with moose populations is .....habitat. Funding to pay people to do habitat assement and moose numbe restimation ranks up with the issues. The last I have heard ontarios moose pop is stable if not slowly growing. The only way you people are going to get anything done out there is like the others have said, rally up with words, sound science and votes. I made a joke earlier about our out of this world resident hunting lic prices. Maybe its time lic hunters pay a habitat fee with every ungulate tag sold that goes directly into a habitat reserve account to send the money where it is most needed and will do the most good. These kinds of wildlife management problems are always complex with so many factors human and otherwise that need to be addressed. I do know from experience that sitting behind a keyboard pounding on the keys to a bunch of other like minded folks on an internet msg board will accomplish squat. I have been and continue to write letters to my mp and omnr regarding the spring bear hunt and will do so until the entire province has the season back. point being ...you have to do something that matters and that take a bit of effort and resolve.

[boxhitch]

Maybe its time lic hunters pay a habitat fee with every ungulate tag sold that goes directly into a habitat reserve account to send the money where it is most needed and will do the most good. We have that. Habitat Conservation Trust Fund surcharge on every license sold. But that is the only monies committed to wildlife and habitat from licenses and tags and permits, the rest goes to the general toilet swirl . And the Gov't in Victoria Palace is loosing interest in spending anything on fish , wildlife or habitat .
Its an old song

[drakfero]

shut them both down, want the population to go up stop shooting cows & calves. No brainer! No bag limit on wolves!


exactly , for 5 years and moose will be back..

[eaglesnester]

Shut them both down, want the population to go up stop shooting cows & calves. No brainer! No bag limit on wolves!X2 on the above. Why shoot a cow or a calf. I would not do so unless I was very very hungry. I sure as hell would not take either for just the sake of the SPORT or the hunt. It is a no brainer.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yes, much better to shoot a tough old post-rut bull that you need an axe to cut the steaks with. :?

[coach]

exactly , for 5 years and moose will be back..

And if that doesn't work??

[Eastbranch]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1416/docs/region_7a.pdf

[boxhitch]

Good , now that this is out of the way , maybe the real problems can be focused on and addressed . What will probably happen is nothing , just wait and see if this closure does the trick.

[finngun]

If the population is in trouble, stop all moose hunting.

yep but try to tell that idea for fn people:mrgreen: good luck .

[Hitman0]

X2 on the above. Why shoot a cow or a calf. I would not do so unless I was very very hungry. I sure as hell would not take either for just the sake of the SPORT or the hunt. It is a no brainer.
X3 Totally agree.

[Apolonius]

Shot a calf once,heard his mother cry ,a cry i never heard before,she went nuts ,running around us.NEVER,EVER again!!!!This is me,what others do not my problem as long as it is legal.IMHO you want more moose,stop the killing of the cows,native and non native.

[Fisher-Dude]

X3 Totally agree.

You don't like eating moose meat?

[E.B.]

Not necessarily true. Best way to decrease a population is to kill the baby makers not the babies. A calf season is way less damaging to a species than a cow season.

Half those calves are cows? Why not leave them be, they already have enough going against there survival.

[Fisher-Dude]

Half those calves are cows? Why not leave them be, they already have enough going against there survival.


Google up compensatory versus additive mortality. Then you'll have a better understanding of population dynamics.

Good start right here: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/natural_resources/wildlife/publications/fs29_population_dynamics.html