Region 5 Moose Decline

[TPK]

Here is a report from Wildlife Infometrics,

Re-evaluation of trends in Moose Populations in the Cariboo Region 1985-2012
http://www.quesnelrodandgun.ca/wp-content/uploads/wii-report449_assessment-of-the-cariboo-region-moose-decline_130726_1015.pdf

Have a read, sorry about the hot-link to another website but this is an 86 page document and trying to post it verbatim here isn't going to work.

[chris]

Whew long read and yet I feel more confused than I did before reading it. Is it me or does the study basically come right out and say results are inconclusive? I didn't know any of the exact numbers listed throughout but it all seemed like common knowledge too me. Pine beetle, wolves and unregulated hunting.

[TPK]

That's what I'm getting from it as well Chris, but I haven't had time to give it good read yet. Seems a big problem that is mentioned several times is "the paucity of information" which once I looked up the word (not ashamed to admit that .. lol) I couldn't agree more. With the lack of information comes poor management and there in lies a big problem.

[oldersniper]

Read the report ...blah blah blah and suggest more studies .. I can help with the one area always over-looked, namely Indians are killing lots of moose, they don't care about bulls, cows, calves, just killing them all... everyone should be aware of the regulations regarding native hunting... 1. NOT transferrable to anyone, native involved MUST pull the trigger, hunting ONLY in traditional territories, must use meat for themselves...... soooooo LOTS of contraventions and illegal native hunting...these regs from BC Government official.... turn them in as native killing is very bad for conservation

[TPK]

I don't think First Nations harvest is over looked in any way, shape or form. I see your post count is low and join date is fairly new, so you haven't been here long..... and you likely won't be here for much longer if First Nations bashing is all you have to offer. Having said that, your concern about illegal harvesting is echoed by many but as you will find .. there really is nothing we can we do about the illegal First Nations aspect of it. Reporting First Nations offenses is a dead end street with no LEO willing to waste their time or the courts time trying to get a conviction. Illegal harvest, be it First nations or others, is not the main problem.

[NaStY]

Read the report ...blah blah blah and suggest more studies .. I can help with the one area always over-looked, namely Indians are killing lots of moose, they don't care about bulls, cows, calves, just killing them all... everyone should be aware of the regulations regarding native hunting... 1. NOT transferrable to anyone, native involved MUST pull the trigger, hunting ONLY in traditional territories, must use meat for themselves...... soooooo LOTS of contraventions and illegal native hunting...these regs from BC Government official.... turn them in as native killing is very bad for conservation

Actually many bands have and are doing there own policing when they can. including excluding many band members from there territory where wild life is at risk. There are bad people in all walks of life.

While i may have high hopes, would be nice to see all participantd follow some set of guide lines.

While your at it though, you should also blame the great white poacher...............

[f350ps]

As has been said before, don't feed the troll, he's just a wanna be politician, that should pretty much sum up his intelligence!! K

[odie1830]

Well what i got from it is, its getting easier to get into area's that might have been tougher when there were no logging roads. Also i think they are saying this makes it easier to harvest a moose weather it be legal or illegal.
just my 2 cents.

[markomoose]

Well i-m happy to report our hunting party got 3 bulls in 5-02.we.ve been going there draws permitted since 1996 and can say the moose hunting has been pretty consistant.i-m sure theres some merit to these studies but i take them with a grain of salt.

[markomoose]

The only thing i see different is the bulls seem to be getting smaller?

[fuzzybiscuit]

Gary Young, aka, oldersniper;

I thought you claimed the moose decline in region 5 could be attributed to all the invading hunters from V.I. and the LML taking more than their share.

Now it's the natives killing everything.

Ever hear the saying that when you're pointing a finger at someone there's three more pointing back at you.

[Jagermeister]

you will find .. there really is nothing we can we do about the illegal First Nations aspect of itSo why are we wasting tax dollars pursuing something that we can derive no benefit from if the other user group is unregulated even unto themselves?
Remember that meeting at the QSS gym about 10 years ago Tony? Nothing changes, the resident hunter is still on the outside looking in.

[Jagermeister]

Gary Young, aka, oldersniper;

I thought you claimed the moose decline in region 5 could be attributed to all the invading hunters from V.I. and the LML taking more than their share.

Now it's the natives killing everything.

Ever hear the saying that when you're pointing a finger at someone there's three more pointing back at you.
He is quite right. Pay attention. A majority of hunters from the lower mainland and Vancouver Island hunted the region 7 areas to the north west of PG. I know this because I spoke to these hunters when they started to show up in Region 5 when 7 went into the LEH. The response I got was, "Why hunt under LEH while the Region 5 was still unlimited?" There was such a large influx of out of region hunters that they were even camping in those little resident hunter honeyholes close to town. You know the ones that the resident to the region uses to sneak out for an evening hunt after work or maybe before work.
Crap, I remember one group from Powell River being pissed that a group from Sooke preempted them on the camping spot that they used for a couple of years prior never mind the a local group had been using it before either party.
And then it got worse when the GOS for moose opened for the 15 days commencing the middle of October. There were so many hunters afield that the moose had no chance of evading hunters. It was like a driven hunt.
And alluding to you finger pointing adage, I can mention 3 other that played a bigger role in this than the resident hunter.
So look in the mirror when you want to spout that rhetoric again.

[markomoose]

Good insight there jager!

[tripleseven]

well, I'm bracing myself for a bashing here...but - the spirit of the law allowing FN to hunt was to allow them a traditional way of life. To my mind, both non-FN hunters and FN are cut from the same cloth, we like to feel like part of a natural system. FN in the caribou hunted animals year round; aside from ooligan grease they traded for obsidian, there isn't much else for a food source there. It's a shame if it truly being over harvested, and I think self-policing needs to happen, that's also a traditional aspect.

I really want to pull a moose from the region...I'm from there (non-FN though). Quite frankly I'm happy if an area is fully utilized by an indigenous population, if it helps with their identity an social issues. I don't know if this is the case, though. Neihmiah have always been wild, and quite frankly dis-functional. It's not just a problem with whites; there's a lot of internal problems. Although they did start the Chilcotin War.

The Neamiah Rodeo in the 80's was sort of like visiting a block party in South Central LA; you don't bring kids, and you know what you're signing up for.

[fuzzybiscuit]

Sorry Jäger, I obviously touched on a soft spot with you.

What I meant with the finger pointing is that there are many things to blame for the decline in moose in region5 and not just invading hunters and the natives. Again, sorry to confuse you.

[Jelvis]

There are a few bulls left in the boo but the cow numbers are dwindling. Apparently they are jumping over the moon.
This is the real problem, no cows now, once the cows jump over the moon it's too late.
If we could get NASA to catch them with the space station b4 they got over the moon we could live trap them and bring them back.
The cost is enormous though and the Ministry says they just don't have the funds.
Not only that the wolves were seen jumping lately and the Ministry was thinking they could be evolving into jumpers to follow the cows that are jumping over the moon.
Jel -- History states cows have been doing this for decades but lately more and more of them are jumping to get away from wolves and climate change. You can read the report coming out of the Region 5 soon. Lots of ideas how to stop this but none that seem too positive so far.

[dhog]

Personally I think if there is a problem with numbers close it down for four or five years but close it to all user groups not just one Then put a bounty on the preds creating revenue

[40incher]

Yeah ... the sky is falling again!!!

What are the high-priced do-nothing bureaucrats doing, other than soliciting bullshit studies?

Time to realize we don't have wildlife management in BC. Just a bunch of left-wing apologists.

[tigrr]

I live in and hunt region 5. Lml/V Island versus locals 10 to 1. Add to that I seen more wolf tracks than moose tracks. I spent the better part of Sept, Oct and Nov hunting. Shot 1 mulie buck. Numbers are dwindling, the cause is who knows, maybe God knows. Ask him. Every one else is just speculating. When a rancher has to shoot 20 wolves to save his cow herd you wonder if there will be anything left when you learn there are two more packs with one having 8 in it and the other larger pack numbers are unknown. Add to that the over abundance of grizzlys and I wonder if the moose population can sustain itself.

There are cycles that all wildlife follow and who knows how moose fit in the cycle right now. They could be on there natural down swing where their numbers are down to kill off predators. Wolves and coyotes and bears starve too if there is no food for them. A wolf needs 7lbs of meat a day to survive. Thankfully they all don't survive.

Oldsniper probably met the same group as I. The 6 braggards filled their moose tags. They all had mulie deer tags and filled all but one of them. I met them when they were looking for # 6 mulie. Been in the area for 6 weeks. What with the fuel the road hunters burned the meat probably cost them $20 - $30 a pound. Would have been cheaper to buy a half of beef and get it cut and wrapped by a butcher. And yes not all are painted by the same brush. Met some really good guys from the lower main land. Shared a fire and had a good bs session.

I'll admit I don't know the answer to the moose decline but there are some factors that I feel is part of the equation.
5 day moose hunt. 5 moose tracks, 6 different grizzly tracks and 8 sets of wolf tracks. Think the ungulates have a chance when you throw in the hunter. When there gone, there gone. Could be 20 years before they repopulate the area. If at all.

Shutting down hunting is leaving it for the wolves and grizzly to have. Lets open the season on a few (enter large number here) grizzly and a bounty on the wolves and hope for the best. One gizzly had a 7 and 1/2 inch wide pad over 10 inches long, before claws. Estimate by the marks in the snow the claws were 4 - 5 inches long. It left a pile of crap on the road that would fill a 2 1/2 gallon pail. Would not want to meet it in the dark, unarmed. Probably eat a whole calf moose in one sitting including the hide and bones.


I am not a biologist or CO, I just see what I see in the bush. The equation is out of whack.

[BCBear]

Lots of property tax paying LML have secondary residences in 5. Call em whatever you want but it's not like aliens taking over the place. But onto the moose. There always seems to be a moose around every corner in the summer near the interlakes. Lots taking velvet naps in the open with big bucks around too. Saw many this summer and 3 bulls out of 5 within a half hour one morning in 3 different groups. The moose callers out there who can pull one in on a string should be coming up dry but are they? leh or not they still must be practising their skill. I'd like to hear how calling has succeeded or failed these past few years for them.

[curt]

there are tons of issue's surrounding the decline of the moose non should be overlooked for another but there is no doubt in some area's FN hunters are badly abusing their rights! Look back on some of my posts i spend 45 minutes discussing some issue's with a Kamloops CO last winter awesome guy very candid and honest. Sadly region 3 will follow suit soon with an over harvest of moose and he blamed FN not exclusively but non the less they were a huge percentage of it. Hunter access and predators were also mentioned but his biggest concern was the FN abuse, the attitude of ownership, entitlement, being untouchable, above the law or excempt from it provides them with free reign serious CO frustration to the point of "why bother" , political intimidation and bad publicity. Bottom line FN run wild take what they want and no courts will touch them the issue is political suicide and our spineless government wont touch them. Most of us know it including the law makers and the law enforcers and the Indians. its sad but our only hope is the Chiefs and band counsel step up and police their members. Trust me most of you who know me also know I come from an native back ground and my wife is from cook island ferry band so I'm not bashing Indians but sometimes the truth hurts and I'm honest. If things dont change white yellow indian wont matter where your from you wont be hunting shit cause there wont be anything left to hunt.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Well i-m happy to report our hunting party got 3 bulls in 5-02.we.ve been going there draws permitted since 1996 and can say the moose hunting has been pretty consistant.i-m sure theres some merit to these studies but i take them with a grain of salt.

SO in your OPINION based on your hunting experience in 5-02 there is NOT a moose population problem in reg 5-02 is that what you are saying ? :confused: RJ

[Jelvis]

Chief and council can't stop one member from hunting.
You keep bringing this up and don't have any knowledge because you don't know how the Federal laws work there curt, and prolly don't live where the moose are by the sound of it.
Or you wife.
Blaming Natives over and over is getting stale so please until you know what the answer is don't blame others just cuz of their race.
You don't know and the CO don't know either. How wood a CO know this anymore than you or I, he or she ain't out in the bush watching any moose get killed, it's all after the fact.
Mpotsmold don't know either but keeps blaming because of race also and not fair to do.
Please refrain from abusing Natives it's improper and should stop.
Jel .. Ask the Bio's and they will enlighten you.
What CO were you talking to in Kamloops and when? Or it's B.S.

[two-feet]

Chief and council can't stop one member from hunting.
You keep bringing this up and don't have any knowledge because you don't know how the Federal laws work there curt, and prolly don't live where the moose are by the sound of it.
Or you wife.
Blaming Natives over and over is getting stale so please until you know what the answer is don't blame others just cuz of their race.
You don't know and the CO don't know either. How wood a CO know this anymore than you or I, he or she ain't out in the bush watching any moose get killed, it's all after the fact.
Mpotsmold don't know either but keeps blaming because of race also and not fair to do.
Please refrain from abusing Natives it's improper and should stop.
Jel .. Ask the Bio's and they will enlighten you.
What CO were you talking to in Kamloops and when? Or it's B.S.

I agree with jelvis the pelvis. Yes FN take some moose but blaming a general population drop on this is naive, they have been shooting tons of moose since they have aquired rifles and there were plenty of moose through generations and generations of FN hunting. Does it help the moose population? No. Is it the main cause of the decline in moose numbers? No.

[markomoose]

Yes rj there is a problem in 5-02 as well as region 5 as a whole.we don,t see as many as we used to.we have to hunt harder & get into those harder to reach areas.also the .300 h&h is plain awesome.your"re not still sore about that are you?lol

[curt]

Chief and council can't stop one member from hunting.
You keep bringing this up and don't have any knowledge because you don't know how the Federal laws work there curt, and prolly don't live where the moose are by the sound of it.
Or you wife.
Blaming Natives over and over is getting stale so please until you know what the answer is don't blame others just cuz of their race.
You don't know and the CO don't know either. How wood a CO know this anymore than you or I, he or she ain't out in the bush watching any moose get killed, it's all after the fact.
Mpotsmold don't know either but keeps blaming because of race also and not fair to do.
Please refrain from abusing Natives it's improper and should stop.
Jel .. Ask the Bio's and they will enlighten you.
What CO were you talking to in Kamloops and when? Or it's B.S.
Actually Chief and counsel can stop the abuse show's what you know. I will enighten you as to what happens province wide, again beleive it or put your head in the sand doesnt matter to me eitherway. FN are legally only entitled to hunt there traditional territory, many have been caught in area;s far from there traditional land like hundreds of miles. Ill give you an example that was given to me FN from Vancouver shooting moose in PG without a license, moose get confiscated by CO, happens to be the Co I was talking to in Kamloops that used to be in PG........Vancouver man in question goes to chief of band offers him a trade... fish for moose the deal is done. Moose has to go back to Vancouver resident because they can aquire permission after the fact and by law he is now untouchable ( if the chiefs and counsel didnt make those back door deals then the charges would stick, if the charges would stick maybe they wouldnt do it eh just a thought!!). How about this one...... FN hunter with his white buddy or buddies with more than 1 moose in the truck, CO knows exactly what is going on cant prove it because if he puts the pressure on the FN just holds onto the moose for a bit then gives it over at a later date. There is a real issue here, what you want to beleive is entirely up to you I dont honestly care what you think, I have many examples because I took an interest and asked. The Kamloops CO was a very nice professional guy but I could sense his frustration, in his words ( my hands are tide) I will find out his Name just for you Jev because I dont BS unlike some others on here I have no reason too. I also did say that they werent the only issue but they definately factor into the decline. Hell talk to Russ at Roche lake resort he was telling me of double digit carcasses of moose early spring just up above the resort where they sled, he watched it happen once or so he claimed, dont beleive me then ask him. An area can only take so much of that before the balnce get thrown way out of wack. Trust me I have alot more respect for the majority of the FN as that is my heritage likely more than many on here but I wont support some of the BS going on by some of my people either, sorry if you dont like hearing it. They are entitled to feed their families with game Im not suggesting they dont but its unfortunate that some abuse the system. Christ you have been around awhile Im sure you have heard the stories Ive been in the bar in Burns Lake myself years back was offered a moose 100$ local Native would go out and get me one right there an the spot if I wanted so dont pretend this crap doesnt go on. If more people made issue of it maybe the pressure and the law would make the system actually work the way its meant to work. You dont have to agree doesnt mean sh** to me but insulting my integrity thats the BS there Jel nothing Ive ever said on here isnt something #1 I have inquired about from people with more insight than me or #2 something I havent experienced myself first hand.

[Jelvis]

If it doesn't matter to you Curt either way, then why bring it up?
I think your way to serious about this stuff that is very complex in nature, courteous.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
This confusion is stifling and it needs clarity with actual reading the laws themselves
not just bar talk

[REMINGTON JIM]

Yes rj there is a problem in 5-02 as well as region 5 as a whole.we don,t see as many as we used to.we have to hunt harder & get into those harder to reach areas.also the .300 h&h is plain awesome.your"re not still sore about that are you?lol

Ok thks for the answer on the moose - Oh and the 300 H&H LMAO ! :-D No not at all ! Cheers RJ

[Jelvis]

Your wrong in some ways about the actual law Curtis, you have some idea how it works but not totally. imho
Indians from Alberta or anywhere in Canada can come here and shoot animals not just local ones and BC Indians can hunt across Canada also.
That's an example of how much you could know and others too, but it would be too much to talk about, so it isn't mentioned so to help keep the peace.
Some of our bands in BC have interim agreements to try to minimize it with BC Ministry
The BC government for example had meetings with a band up the north Thompson to help them out
Otherwise it wood still be happening as much today and some still does.
Read my lips, --- it's Federal law -- Federal means under the Government of Canada
Indians are under Federal jurisdiction hence the Indian Act.
Forget your white buddy stuff that's totally different, we're talking Status Indians not others
Your bar stories are just what your saying -- read the Indian Act first.
curt your a lot of emotion and info on hear say so please, it's not official records on the subject
Write or e-mail INAC and they will explain about it.
and I think Russ at Roche Lake is more emotion than substance too

[40incher]

Man!! ... it's amazing how a dysfunctional bureaucracy (MFLNRO) can get everyone at each other's throats, and forget about the real problem ... which is a total lack of "proactive" wildlife management in our province.

Instead of telling the public the truth they play the "don't know game"! Doesn't matter the issue .. it could be predators, it could be non-licensed kill, it could be highway/railway collisions, or a combination of all ... But instead they play dumb.

I will follow up tomorrow with a graphic example of this bureaucratic dysfunction.

[40incher]

Man!! ... it's amazing how a dysfunctional bureaucracy (MFLNRO) can get everyone at each other's throats, and forget about the real problem ... which is a total lack of "proactive" wildlife management in our province.

Instead of telling the public the truth they play the "don't know game"! Doesn't matter the issue .. it could be predators, it could be non-licensed kill, it could be highway/railway collisions, or a combination of all ... But instead they play dumb.

I will follow up tomorrow with a graphic example of this bureaucratic dysfunction.



To Continue:

In Region 6 we have a variety of moose hunting options depending on the geographic area. In the south we have 3 bow hunts, 3 LEH seasons and a 7-day GOS (all for any bull). In the north we have a long GOS for any bull. In the Nass we have no moose hunting allowed for licensed hunters. These regulations were designed by resident hunters and guides, and stayed away from the killing of cows and calves. To the obvious benefit of our moose.

Moose populations in the North and South are stable, and allow for many different hunts for licensed BC residents.

Moose populations in the Nass are down by 75%, and there are no options for licensed BC residents.

There are extremely large populations of predators in all parts of the Skeena Region.

The irony of the situation is that MFLNRO, instead of stating the obvious, sits on the fence and sends out mixed messages to the public. This leads to confusion, when the issues are clear.

Political correctness does nothing to inform the public, nor to correct the Nass moose decline.

The Ministry is doing everyone a disservice by remaining silent.

[kilometers]

The Nass is a prime example of moose decline. It's so bad even the natives have to obtain a tag through a lottery.
But in the same mu 6-15 really close to the closed area I counted 11 different moose from the ridge in one evening. How can one area have no moose left by just outside the Nass boundary I see plenty.
Its like the closer you get to the reserve the less moose their is. Weird I wonder why?

[Cordillera]

Ok so how come if its so obvious, why there are way more reserves in 6 30 or 6 9? But not the same decline?

The fact that Nisga'a have limits to their harvest (the only example I know of in bc) is actually a massive victory for wildlife management.

[two-feet]

Please correct me if wrong, but the Nisga were givin full control over all resorces within their area, and shot out the moose. Closures etc. were put in place after the fact as it happened over a short time period.

i too hunt 6-8, 6-9, 6-30. Loads of reserves, loads of wolves, moose doing pretty well relative to other areas.

[kilometers]

Please correct me if wrong, but the Nisga were givin full control over all resorces within their area, and shot out the moose. Closures etc. were put in place after the fact as it happened over a short time period.

i too hunt 6-8, 6-9, 6-30. Loads of reserves, loads of wolves, moose doing pretty well relative to other areas.

i believe you are correct.
But I think the most damage was done when they opened up the winter moose hunt to the nisga.
The co said their was still 7 moose poached in the Nass this year that they know of.