Conviction of Sheep Hunter Upheld

[bighornbob]

Well the courts have finally spoken and the famous Spences Bridge ram (numerous threads on here) is only 7 years old and an illegal kill. I cant believe the hunter tried appealing it after his first loss in court. What a waste of taxpayers money and wildlife resources.

http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131101/KAMLOOPS0101/311019996/-1/kamloops/conviction-of-sheep-hunter-upheld


BHB

[Greg]

Is there a picture of the ram anywhere?

[bighornbob]

There are a few threads on here with pics.

BHB

[bighornbob]

This the original thread:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?27027-Spences-Bridge-Ram&highlight=Spences

[boxhitch]

Good outcome , glad thats over.
thanks BHB , hope you add a good comment to the Kamloops news story.

[bighornbob]

Good outcome , glad thats over.
thanks BHB , hope you add a good comment to the Kamloops news story.

Yah my comment in my head was "about F'ing time this was resolved". That was at the kitchen table this morning while eating breakfast. I guess I am one of the old timers like you that still reads a paper copy of the news paper. Or are you more advanced and into the digital papers:):)

I just found the link for the rest on hear.

BHB

[Kudu]

Well the courts have finally spoken and the famous Spences Bridge ram (numerous threads on here) is only 7 years old and an illegal kill. I cant believe the hunter tried appealing it after his first loss in court. What a waste of taxpayers money and wildlife resources.

http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131101/KAMLOOPS0101/311019996/-1/kamloops/conviction-of-sheep-hunter-upheld


BHB


Aaah yes - just another fantastic reason for newbies not to hunt sheep!

I Guess PETA would love to see these type of rules applied to every species out there....... Why not make every hunter stare at their intended target for hours - trying to determine if they are 7 - 7.5 or 8 years old - then make it as difficult as possible to get it right anyway - who knows? - Bambi may bat an eyelid, and said hunter would just pack it all up and go home - rather than than getting prosecuted.....!

Sounds like another own goal to me!

[Duidery]

Aaah yes - just another fantastic reason for newbies not to hunt sheep! - I hope you are kidding.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Glad he finally got what he deserved. Too bad they can't hand him the bill for the entire thing.

Also too bad the rest of the sheep hunters in the province have paid the price of a reduced season over there....and the possiblity it going LEH.
Thank you Mr Eng:?.
Next time you go sheep hunting, please read the regulations for the area ahead of time.

SSS

[BiG Boar]

So Kenneth Eng ruins it for all of us. Thanks jerk face.

[juiceterboost]

glad the conviction was upheld... With the number of short sheep being taken from there it is a very likely possibility that next year it will go to LEH. A shame I know but it will also save the conservation officer time and ultimately tax payers money. The downside is Spences Bridge will suffer with fewer sheep hunters in the area. ......... At least they will still have all of the hunters going after all of those infamous spences bridge mule deer.

[1899]

Here is a link to the decision:
http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/13/19/2013BCSC1957.htm

[hawk-i]

Wow, looks like a lot of the HBC sheep hunters also thought the ram was 8+ yrs old in the original thread. How much of a fine did the shooter get, or was the sheep only confiscated with no fine.

[hawk-i]

Glad he finally got what he deserved. Too bad they can't hand him the bill for the entire thing.

Also too bad the rest of the sheep hunters in the province have paid the price of a reduced season over there....and the possiblity it going LEH.
Thank you Mr Eng:?.
Next time you go sheep hunting, please read the regulations for the area ahead of time.

SSS

Ummmmmmmm, were you not one of the guys who also had this sheep pegged at 8 and 1/2 yrs of age in the original thread....unless I read it wrong your comments today seem a little out of place!!
What does he deserve if it was in fact an unintentional error....seems the Taxidermist also aged the ram at 8.5. Nothing quite as much fun as lighting a match to the tar and feathers, is there?
Have a nice day!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Ummmmmmmm, were you not one of the guys who also had this sheep pegged at 8 and 1/2 yrs of age in the original thread....unless I read it wrong your comments today seem a little out of place!!
What does he deserve if it was in fact an unintentional error....seems the Taxidermist also aged the ram at 8.5. Nothing quite as much fun as lighting a match to the tar and feathers, is there?
Have a nice day!

Make sure you read the thread from start to finish. Many people learned something on this thread...myself included.

And the most important thing is that the hunter never admitted he made a mistake. He has deep pockets and figured he could "lawyer" his way out of this one even after Geist said this ram was only 7. He burned valuable crown money and time....and lots of it.


Oh...and another thing.......Don't assume he tried to age this ram.

SSS

[one-shot-wonder]

With the number of short sheep being taken from there it is a very likely possibility that next year it will go to LEH.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Things were different this fall from what I understand with the new regulation in place.

[olympia]

the fact that he took it in to a taxidermist must mean he was inexperienced in determining age of animal and made an honest mistake because no one who knows they illegally killed an animal is gonna take it to the taxidermist, its different if you found it hidden in his attic(or luggage like Vancouver Airport), I think the court should take that into consideration before they mete out the punishment, judging by the varied answeres on HBC as to if it were legal or not tells you it could have happened to many people, I myself wouldnt try sheep hunting at all because I wouldnt want to make a mistake of judging an animal age and being off by mere months could land my name in the newspaper as a poacher and animal rights target, he still should have to pay a fine for his mistake, but I think some of you guys are a little too hard

[Gamebuster]

the fact that he took it in to a taxidermist must mean he was inexperienced in determining age of animal and made an honest mistake because no one who knows they illegally killed an animal is gonna take it to the taxidermist, its different if you found it hidden in his attic(or luggage like Vancouver Airport), I think the court should take that into consideration before they mete out the punishment, judging by the varied answeres on HBC as to if it were legal or not tells you it could have happened to many people, I myself wouldnt try sheep hunting at all because I wouldnt want to make a mistake of judging an animal age and being off by mere months could land my name in the newspaper as a poacher and animal rights target, he still should have to pay a fine for his mistake, but I think some of you guys are a little too hard

Why didn't he just man up and pay the ticket..why draw this out for 5 yrs in court? I wonder how much this idiot cost the taxpayers?

[pmj]

Ummmmmmmm, were you not one of the guys who also had this sheep pegged at 8 and 1/2 yrs of age in the original thread....unless I read it wrong your comments today seem a little out of place!!
What does he deserve if it was in fact an unintentional error....seems the Taxidermist also aged the ram at 8.5. Nothing quite as much fun as lighting a match to the tar and feathers, is there?
Have a nice day!
Unintentional error?? You are responsible for your bullet from the time it leaves the barrel until it comes to a rest.
On another note, there are folks on here who know about sheep from putting miles on their boots in the mountains and not from reading the internet. I think they have some sound advice.

The most important thing that people should get out of this thread is not necessarily "how to age sheep" but more importantly "how difficult it can be to age sheep in field conditions" (particularily bighorns).

Almost everyone here on this forum(no matter how much sheep hunting experience they have had) said they would not drop the hammer on this ram....and the pictures we had of this ram were as ideal as they come. You can't get a whole lot closer in the field(except for BHB in his ewe outfit http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif).

Hunters are still not using "due dilligence" when deciding pulling the pin.
Not only do we owe it to the sheep, we owe it to our fellow hunters of the Province.
There's a lot riding on your decision.
Don't take it lightly.
You can never make a mistake when you err on the side of caution.

SSS

[one-shot-wonder]

Why didn't he just man up and pay the ticket..why draw this out for 5 yrs in court? I wonder how much this idiot cost the taxpayers?

Lets just say the F&W branch could have done alot of invertory flights, or a decent habitat restoration project for that amount.

[GoatGuy]

I don't think anyone on the net will tell the full story for fear of ending up 'in trouble.'


Will sum it up with the outcome: I believe when a person takes an illegal ram to court, on multiple occasions, it says a lot about their character and the value they place on the resource.

Believe me when I say this case and the people involved have and will cost all of us big time in the long run.

What a travesty.

[hawk-i]

Make sure you read the thread from start to finish. Many people learned something on this thread...myself included.

And the most important thing is that the hunter never admitted he made a mistake. He has deep pockets and figured he could "lawyer" his way out of this one even after Geist said this ram was only 7. He burned valuable crown money and time....and lots of it.


Oh...and another thing.......Don't assume he tried to age this ram.

SSS

Oh, I did read the orginal thread from start to finish and there was a lot of people including yourself that said it was a legal ram. It was only after the news came up that is was siezed by the CO that you said you learnt something....so it would appear that you yourself and many others, could have been guilty of shooting this ram if given the chance. Why would you assume he didn't try to age this ram before shooting it?
Also I seem to remember reading in the original post that this ram scored 180.....if this is in fact correct, it will qualify for entry into the B&C All time records list....doesn't it seem a little bit off that a 180 ram wouldn't be considered a mature ram by British Columbia standards. Hell, even if it only scored in the 170's it would still make the Boone and Crocket awards list.
The point being in my comments here, is that it is very possible that the hunter honestly believed he had shot a legal ram and so did a LOT of others (including yourself), so why the need for the jab in the ribs... might be the real problem in this instance, is the regulations and those that write them!
Happy hunting!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Why didn't he just man up and pay the ticket..why draw this out for 5 yrs in court? I wonder how much this idiot cost the taxpayers?

Original court case was over 6 figures.
No idea what the BC Supreme Court appeal was worth to all of us?

SSS

[boxhitch]

the mighty hunter wanted to brag to his buddies "Yuppers, this is the fine small ram trophy I won in court"
His expensive challenge to the system is only going to cause the system to react , probably in a negative way for hunters.
It sounds like he isn't the only one seeking court trophies

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Oh, I did read the orginal thread from start to finish and there was a lot of people including yourself that said it was a legal ram. It was only after the news came up that is was siezed by the CO that you said you learnt something....so it would appear that you yourself and many others, could have been guilty of shooting this ram if given the chance. Why would you assume he didn't try to age this ram before shooting it?
Also I seem to remember reading in the original post that this ram scored 180.....if this is in fact correct, it will qualify for entry into the B&C All time records list....doesn't it seem a little bit off that a 180 ram wouldn't be considered a mature ram by British Columbia standards. Hell, even if it only scored in the 170's it would still make the Boone and Crocket awards list.
The point being in my comments here, is that it is very possible that the hunter honestly believed he had shot a legal ram and so did a LOT of others (including yourself), so why the need for the jab in the ribs... might be the real problem in this instance, is the regulations and those that write them!
Happy hunting!

Personally, I won't shoot a ram on age unless I get an extra year for error. Not worth the chance.

MANY hunters did the right thing and passed on this ram.

Maybe this guy only hunted the Kootenays and wasn't even aware of the different regulations in this zone of 3-17? You'll have to ask Mr Eng that one.

There are no winners in this court case and the subsequent appeal. Only losers.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Oh, I did read the orginal thread from start to finish and there was a lot of people including yourself that said it was a legal ram. It was only after the news came up that is was siezed by the CO that you said you learnt something....so it would appear that you yourself and many others, could have been guilty of shooting this ram if given the chance. Why would you assume he didn't try to age this ram before shooting it?

Just because people cannot properly age a bighorn sheep does not mean that they would shoot them. That is why people shouldn't shoot based on age. You are of course assuming this person tried to age the ram - I would be extremely careful with assumptions.



Also I seem to remember reading in the original post that this ram scored 180.....if this is in fact correct, it will qualify for entry into the B&C All time records list....doesn't it seem a little bit off that a 180 ram wouldn't be considered a mature ram by British Columbia standards. Hell, even if it only scored in the 170's it would still make the Boone and Crocket awards list.

So a person should be able to shoot a big illegal ram, and take it to court and get the horns back because it was big?

It seems there are a pile of people that miss this (particularly people who talk about the book): it was founded based on the principles of ethics and fair chase. Of course, fair chase includes knowing what the hell you are doing and shooting wildlife which is open - not to shoot illegal wildlife just because it's 'big'. I mean seriously, what kind of rational is that?

There are all kinds of rams that are 'big' in the EK as well but they never make the legal definition of full curl. Does that mean everyone of them should be shot and taken to court because they'd make 'the book'?

To be very honest this idea that because it's big and makes the book provides some kind of rational is exactly why people won't have anything to do with 'book' people and would never submit their animals. 'Poachers and the book'.


The point being in my comments here, is that it is very possible that the hunter honestly believed he had shot a legal ram and so did a LOT of others (including yourself), so why the need for the jab in the ribs... might be the real problem in this instance, is the regulations and those that write them!
Happy hunting!

He didn't know the regulations for the area.

The problem is poachers who can't man up when they screw up. I can only imagine telling all my buddies: "Yep shot this ILLEGAL ram up in spences, took me a couple years but I finally got it after a court battle that cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars and cost hunters a pile of opportunity. Doesn't he look great? Next year I'm thinking about trying for an elk in Jasper."

[GoatGuy]

the fact that he took it in to a taxidermist must mean he was inexperienced in determining age of animal and made an honest mistake because no one who knows they illegally killed an animal is gonna take it to the taxidermist, its different if you found it hidden in his attic(or luggage like Vancouver Airport), I think the court should take that into consideration before they mete out the punishment, judging by the varied answeres on HBC as to if it were legal or not tells you it could have happened to many people, I myself wouldnt try sheep hunting at all because I wouldnt want to make a mistake of judging an animal age and being off by mere months could land my name in the newspaper as a poacher and animal rights target, he still should have to pay a fine for his mistake, but I think some of you guys are a little too hard

I would not for one second assume that:

1) The individual aged or attempted to age the ram
2) Knew the regulations for the area (ie over the nose as opposed to breaking the eye socket as is in Region 4)

The outcome was the ram ended up it court because it wasn't long enough or old enough. The ram was illegal killed.

Everything before that is going to be a guess for everyone outside those people involved.

[hawk-i]

GoatGuy, your totally missing my point in my comments. I didn't say you should shoot an illegal ram because it is big, I said regulations that don't consider a 180 B&C scored ram to be mature ram are flawed. Regulation that say, but if you can count 8 years growth you can shoot it are flawed when many counted that ram to be 8+ years old.
And No. 1 reason...Calling a guy down when you yourself incorrectly aged the ram is flawed and hard to condone.
But you knew that, didn't you!
P.S....good luck on your Jasper Elk hunt!

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy, your totally missing my point in my comments. I didn't say you should shoot an illegal ram because it is big, I said regulations that don't consider a 180 B&C scored ram to be mature ram are flawed. Regulation that say, but if you can count 8 years growth you can shoot it are flawed when many counted that ram to be 8+ years old.
And No. 1 reason...Calling a guy down when you yourself incorrectly aged the ram is flawed and hard to condone.
But you knew that, didn't you!
P.S....good luck on your Jasper Elk hunt!

I didn't incorrectly age the ram.

Calling a guy down for shooting an illegal ram is one thing, calling a guy down for shooting an illegal ram and taking it to court is another. When you knowingly negatively affect your fellow hunters and try to essentially buy back an illegal ram you certainly should not expect the support of the hunting community.

8+ harvest is considered the staple across North American sheep populations to maximize compensatory mortality. Every sheep researcher has found that. Fast growing young rams (6+7) are exactly the sheep that research indicates we should be trying to avoid harvesting until they are 8.

Sheep are sexually mature @ 18 months old, would you like to call that the age for mature rams?

[Gilmore]

GoatGuy, your totally missing my point in my comments. I didn't say you should shoot an illegal ram because it is big, I said regulations that don't consider a 180 B&C scored ram to be mature ram are flawed. Regulation that say, but if you can count 8 years growth you can shoot it are flawed when many counted that ram to be 8+ years old...


You are right many considered the ram to 8 years old...but none of them actually shot it. In fact a lot of experienced hunters actually passed on the ram in the field even though they though it may be legal...good thing. Another reason to toss aging bighorns from the regulations all together.

Its hard enough to count rings on a bighorn as we have just seen in the original post, but you would have the regulations changed so that if you field judged a ram to be 180" B&C you could shoot it?? Great idea.:?

[srupp]

HMMMM I wasnt there..however I have been hunting Spenses bridge..for many years and have yet to see a legal ram during the GOS..and thats not for lack of trying..seen 188 sheep this year ...over 10 days and only 1 was even close..I wasnt sure even after 60 minutes of glassing him..so I didnt shoot...didnt see many other hunters...and there were not a lot of legal rams running around...

I DID see photos of 2 rams taken last DECEMBER just off the road both were wicked good rams....and would have been insane trophies IF taken during a legal season..these were taken by first nation subsitence hunts..even though both hunters told me they didnt utilize the meat that it stinks of juniper and sage..

I have been almost everywhere, and consider myself a decent to above average spotter..and those I have met that are even better than me..no one I saw had harvested a ram during GOS..just the late out of season...no need to go to LEH here...just enforcement of season...and poaching issues...

my .02

steven

[325]

HMMMM I wasnt there..however I have been hunting Spenses bridge..for many years and have yet to see a legal ram during the GOS..and thats not for lack of trying..seen 188 sheep this year ...over 10 days and only 1 was even close..I wasnt sure even after 60 minutes of glassing him..so I didnt shoot...didnt see many other hunters...and there were not a lot of legal rams running around...

I DID see photos of 2 rams taken last DECEMBER just off the road both were wicked good rams....and would have been insane trophies IF taken during a legal season..these were taken by first nation subsitence hunts..even though both hunters told me they didnt utilize the meat that it stinks of juniper and sage..

I have been almost everywhere, and consider myself a decent to above average spotter..and those I have met that are even better than me..no one I saw had harvested a ram during GOS..just the late out of season...no need to go to LEH here...just enforcement of season...and poaching issues...

my .02

steven

That sickens me.

[j270wsm]

Regardless of how old the ram was, it was not legal to be shot. The hunter F'd up and either intentionally poached the ram, didn't know the regs or counted wrong( like lots of others in the original thread ). I do find it hard to believe that someone who intentionally poached a trophy animal would take it to the taxidermist and try and pass it off for a legal animal. Considering the ram doesn't meet either stipulation for a legal ram( horn length or age ) the hunter should be fined, but since he has pushed the issue to the Supreme Court I feel he should be considered a poacher and nailed to the wall.

I do agree with Hawk-i, any ram that scores 175-180 is obviously a mature ram whether its 8 or the horns meet the length requirement. I think they should eliminate the age requirement for mature rams and change it to a horn length restriction

[mark]

Adding my 2 cents to this thread..... The hunter in this case is no rookie, a veteran hunter with plenty of sheep experience.
This one really baffled me because although im on the rookie side of sheep hunting, the ram was clearly 7 years old. Not even an iffy ram or questionable IMO. (And i have held the horns)
I have also met the hunter, and he seemed like a really great guy by all respects. BUT....i also believe that when one screws up in life (as people do) one should own up, take the beating, and move on.
The fact that he used his money and lawyers to waste tons of court time and money is sad, hense i glad to see him burn for this one!!!

[boxhitch]

News flash for those that haven't noticed
The description for bighorns was changed two seasons ago , the age component has been dropped.

agreed mark
No one is such a bad guy for just shooting a Ram that doesn't measure up to requirements , too bad so sad , face the music , it happens to quite a few.
But when things go sour is when the case goes to trial and then gets up held and then gets taken to a higher court . Over what ? A sheep head ? Not like its child custody or a horse sale gone bad.
A set of B&C horns went through the local estate auction house last year , fetched <$600 iirc

[Mikey Rafiki]

The maturity angle doesn't add up. I haven't seen many threads complaining about not being able to shoot 170 inch 3 point mulies in 4 point areas or 300 inch 5 point elk in 6 point areas or 10 year old moose that don't meat tri palm requirements. The regs are the regs and the written rules always reign supreme regardless of the intentions of the rule.