Full Curl Thinhorns (Bridge of nose vs Jig)

[Rackmastr]

Hey Guys,

I've had some interesting discussions in the past few weeks about thinhorn rams and what makes them 'legal'. There has been some lengthy discussions on age of rams, annuli, curls, etc in the past on here, and I'd like to hope this doesnt cause some large debate, but I'd like some opinions and clarification/thoughts on a subject.

In the regulations, a full-curl thinhorn is described as:

"full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;

Now, when you talk about the 'nose bridge plane' it brings up a discussion that we've talked about. When a ram is placed in a jig, the anterior part of his horn is set on the jig and the jig is set to the nostril of the ram if I'm seeing things right and reading from others experiences. What this causes is a line that doesnt fully follow the ram's nose plane, as it cuts in to the eye and the area behind his nose.

When a ram curls so tight that he doestn break his 'bridge' of his nose, but would obviously go past the jig's line, what is the legal opinion or definition when plugging sheep? I've read some notes on the 'Phanton Ram' case that curled tight but did not make it past the jig. I havent seen pics of this ram so its hard to see if its what I'm referring to as well.

I passed on a 6 year old ram this year that curled up past his eye and looked to be 'full curl' to the base of his horn. He did not extend past the bridge of his nose, but if he was set on a jig I think he would have been past the jig. This was not the type or age of ram I was interested in killing, but I'd like to hear the opinion of legalities if the ram was older and just held a tight curl.

I want a nice mature Stone's ram at one point, and am happy searching for one that is old enough and mature enough to be a good trophy, but this discussion has some interesting implications and I'm curious on more of an interested level than anything.

Thoughts or comments? Sorry for the long winded post. Any pics that people have would be great to explain this.

[ru rancher]

so my dads ram this summer was like this it curled real close to the eye socket even thouhg it had deep curls it still came up close to the eye and not above the bridge of the nose it was a 12 year old ram so curl didnt matter but when they put it on the jig they just looked from the side and saw that it wen above the bottom of the jig so no you would not have had problems with that ram you describe with the inspector i had im not sure what other inspectors might do but with my expiriance that is what they do in that case

[Rackmastr]

Interesting rancher.

Do you have any pics of the ram?

And to be clear, I had no intentions of shooting a young ram like this one. He looked immature, he was immature, and not the type of ram I've hiked and hunted for 12 years to kill. I do think its a really interesting discussion about the jig vs the bridge of the nose vs the plane of the nose though.

[roymil]

Is the jig not set differently for thin horns and bighorns? The inspector may have had the wrong setting.

[ru rancher]

there are pictures on the thread i created spatsizi stones and ya of course i was just saying it wouldve passed i dont have pictures of it in the jig but it was set for thin horns the two bars where placed on top of the nose bridge and stuck out and then you slide them and what ever to make them hit the tips and another thing my dads ram was 12 years old so the inspector said it didnt need to go into the jig but he was training a ladie to do the job so thats why it went in and he was saying to her that since this ram curled up to its eye it is the hardest to tell but you just look flat with the bars and if it breaks that line then its good but like i say it was already legal so he didnt need to check that it was full curl

[Rackmastr]

Ya I remember those pics on that thread. Thanks rancher again for the comments and congrats on the rams!

Sure helps when they are 12 years old for sure!

Interesting discussion...

[ru rancher]

ya so same with me though i wouldnt have shot the six year old that curled real tight just not the trophie i was looking for and also not sure how an inspector would react to that so dont take this as me telling anyone to shoot it and it will be legal just saying from my expieriance that it would probably have bin legal

[bighornbob]

The jig is really irrelevant for judging over the bridge of the nose. You could just as easily use a 2 foot level and slide it down the bridge of the nose and see if it touches one of the horn tips. In my mind the jig has a flaw in that it assumes that both horns are equal and we all know that she horns can vary a lot from side to side.

For those that don't know, the jig has a metal u- shaped plate that the horns sit on. The back edges of the horns bases sit on this plate and this provides the straight line that can be used to see if the horn breaks the the bottom of the eye socket (as in the full curl regs for the kootenays).

The way they use to judge over the bridge Is a couple of straight aluminum bars that are parallel to the u-shaped plate. The bars are then leveled out and extended outward to see if they touch horn. The jig assumes both bases are exactly the same and that's the problem. If one side is bigger then the other it will drop the opposite horn lower. Might not seem like much, but when they are confiscating rams that might be a 1mm short it could really make a difference.

Is there something out there that is better, not sure. The one thing I know for sure every ram I have seen in the jig is always smaller then what you think it is legality wise.

BHB

[Rackmastr]

Thats what I had wondered bighonbob....the 'jig' when set up as described seemed like it wasnt really checking for the bridge of the nose, it seemed as if it was checking for being square and also for the full curl requirement in the kootenays for bighorns, etc

I'd like to see the 'bars' you describe in use.

Its another interesting aspect of sheep hunting. Constantly asking, looking, and searching for more info on aging, maturity, trophy size, terrain, etc, etc. Always learning!

[Rackmastr]

I think I understand what you mean by the 'bars' and it makes sense in my head.

Still, any pics of sheep in the jig are hard to come by obviously, but the more pics and discussion a guy has is very cool.

[bighornbob]

I think I understand what you mean by the 'bars' and it makes sense in my head.

Still, any pics of sheep in the jig are hard to come by obviously, but the more pics and discussion a guy has is very cool. all the bars are are just chunks of 1/4 inch flat bar about 8" in length. I have a couple of pics of my bighorn from this year in the jig with the bars set up. On another computer so can't post up now. All they are used for is to project the bridge of the nose line over to each horn. They are held in place by other bars and some wing nuts. One side is placed on the bone of the forehead/nose, the other is moved to intercept the horn. With the use of a level on top of the bar to ensure it's square to the bone, it's quite easy to see if the horn tip extends above this as the bottom edge of the bar is the same level as the forehead/nose. So if the horn touches the bar or is greater the horn tip is above the forehead/nose.

Easier to see in pics.

Bhb

[MacMtnHunter]

Trev, from what I have seen the jig is pretty much useless for thinhorns. Not to judge the inspector that did my Dall, but he pretty much put it on the jig and got it semi lined up just to show that he did it. Just like BHB says, it would be more effective to just use a long straight edge and slide it down the nasal bone to check "breaking the bridge". As for a bighorn, I would still like to see it on the jig set up correctly. I am always a little skeptical too as to how it could potentially look different once you peel the hide off the head. When you do this with a thinhorn, you get almost another quarter inch of play there. Would it be the same with a bighorn (i.e. - where the tip of the nasal bone is on the jig), I don't know. If you do come across some pics I would like to see them.

[Slinky Pickle]

Wrong species and age... but this guy's horns will probably never get past that bridge! I think he had a prosthesis inserted so he could live longer. :)

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ia7r6u.jpg

[BCbillies]

Here is the jig. While this horn extends above the nose a tight curl ram with the horn tip just above the center of the eye socket will make legal according to the jig. I have witnessed this with a young ram . . . but this knowledge could be dangerous!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/jig1.jpg






http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/jig2.jpg

[MacMtnHunter]

That's all fine for measuring off the bridge of the nose. But I still want to see how the skull of a bighorn sits in there when the reference point of "the center of the nostril" is used when the hide is removed.

[budismyhorse]

Thanks BCbillies....first jig pic I've seen on this site personally.

Ive seen a few thin horns in the jig now and they are all set in a little different. This is the first one where the nose seems to be tilted downward and not on the nose pin. Just goes to show you there is a lot of room for interpretation and judgement...........which is frustrating. It would be really cool if you had a field pic broadside to show that horn with the cape still on.

FWIW, this seems to be the best set up for people to go with as it would be the most "conservative" as opposed to having the bridge of the nose line moved further down the ridge by lifting the nose pin up.

I don't want to get some inspectors into hot water but I've seen some goofy set ups they said were legit...........none were borderline so it wasn't really an issue at the time.



interesting!

[bighornbob]

That's all fine for measuring off the bridge of the nose. But I still want to see how the skull of a bighorn sits in there when the reference point of "the center of the nostril" is used when the hide is removed.

The center of the nostril is just for field use. As the regs read: means any male bighorn mountain sheep, the head of which, when viewed squarely from the side, has at least one horn tip extending upwards beyond a straight line drawn through the centre of the nostril and the lowest hindmost portion of the horn base. If the skull and horns are presented for examination, when viewed squarely from the side with both horns in alignment, at least one horn tip extends upward beyond a straight line drawn through the lowest hindmost portion of the horn base and the lowermost edge of the eye socket.

What they actually use in the jig is the lower edge of the eye socket. So in BCBillies pic, the head would be tilted up so as that the bottom edge of the eye socket is level with the metal "U". This way they place one of the aluminum bars on the "U" and one end should be touching the bottom edge of the eye socket and the other extends to the horn. If the bar touches horn its legal.

BHB

[bighornbob]

Thanks BCbillies....first jig pic I've seen on this site personally.

Ive seen a few thin horns in the jig now and they are all set in a little different. This is the first one where the nose seems to be tilted downward and not on the nose pin. Just goes to show you there is a lot of room for interpretation and judgement...........which is frustrating. It would be really cool if you had a field pic broadside to show that horn with the cape still on.

FWIW, this seems to be the best set up for people to go with as it would be the most "conservative" as opposed to having the bridge of the nose line moved further down the ridge by lifting the nose pin up.

I don't want to get some inspectors into hot water but I've seen some goofy set ups they said were legit...........none were borderline so it wasn't really an issue at the time.



interesting!

For above the bridge of the nose it does not really matter how the skull is tilted in the jig as the horns will tilt with the skull. If you tilted the nose of BCBillies ram pic up 2 inches, the horns would move up 2" too.

For my bighorn this year, the inspector was using a level length wise on the bridge of the nose (from horns to tip of nose) trying to get it level. I told him it did not really matter how level it was as the horns rotate up or down proportionately with the skull.

BHB

[budismyhorse]

not sure I follow you BHB........if you use the base of the horn as a pivot point and drop the nose or raise it........it changes the "line" where the sheep is legal or not quite a bit.

in BC Billies case.......if you raise the nose instead of it being legal by an inch its more like 1.5 or 2 inches. In his case its moot.......however in a borderline situation it would make a huge difference.

no?

[ElectricDyck]

Good thread, a friend of mine stared at one this year that had curled back and came up behind the eye. It looked like an older ram with big bases, I'll see if I can get a pic from him.


Here is the jig. While this horn extends above the nose a tight curl ram with the horn tip just above the center of the eye socket will make legal according to the jig. I have witnessed this with a young ram . . . but this knowledge could be dangerous!

So do they line up the base of the horn with the center of the eye socket? I don't understand how to draw that imaginary line to determine legality of a deep back curling ram.

[ryanb]

The way the regulation is worded is pretty clear. It says the horn must break the nose bridge plane, not the nose bridge itself. So in the case of a tight curl that doesn't break the bridge it would be the extended plane of the bridge that is the reference point. Now, how to exactly measure the legality of said ram in a borderline case is not so cut and dried. I don't believethe jig can be used in this case. I would imagine they would err on the side of the hunter.

[spear]

My C.I. was done with a straight edge sliding down the bridge of the skull, guy took less than thirty seconds to decide despite it being over the bridge by only an inch or so??

[ElectricDyck]

Here's one that's been posted on here. Explain to me how this one breaks the plane, I don't get where you draw the line?

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/wildimages/091_zpseff964aa.jpg

[ru rancher]

okay so there is also another test and it is called the tube test i belive and as long as the horn makes a full circle in this rams case if we where looking square on it would then its good you have a tube and line it up so you can see the horn square on and put a piece of paper between the tip and the base to make it easyer to see the full circle i read about this test once

[bighornbob]

not sure I follow you BHB........if you use the base of the horn as a pivot point and drop the nose or raise it........it changes the "line" where the sheep is legal or not quite a bit.

in BC Billies case.......if you raise the nose instead of it being legal by an inch its more like 1.5 or 2 inches. In his case its moot.......however in a borderline situation it would make a huge difference.

no?


The "line" of legality is made by and judged by a part of the skull (either the bridge of the nose or the lower edge of the eye socket). As the horns are attached to skull, it does not matter how its moved up or down the horn distance will remain the same.

Using BCBillies picture above, the inspector pulled the skull/nose down the so the forehead nose bridge is flush with the metal "U". The metal "U" is now the line of legality. Placing a bar on the "U" and extending it out to the horn will carry that legality line out to the horn, in this case legal by an inch. If you raised the skull up by a inch, the forehead nose bridge would be 1 inch above the metal "U" and the bar would have to be raised above the "U" an inch and this line carried over to the horn. It would still be the same as the first measure.

I will post pics shortly of my ram in the jig and you will see this.

BHB

[bighornbob]

Here is my bighorn ram in the jig from this year. The inspector tried to level the skull (horns to nose) to the table, so that's why its raised higher above the metal "U" then BCBillies ram. As you can see the nose is a lot higher then the "U" so the metal bars touching the forehead/nose bridge have to raised too.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_28.JPG

Side view.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_29.JPG

Other side
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_30.JPG

The electricians tape around the skull and horns was used to keep them together as they were loose.

I hope these pics bring some clarity to the jig.

BHB

[Chopper]

Here is my bighorn ram in the jig from this year. The inspector tried to level the skull (horns to nose) to the table, so that's why its raised higher above the metal "U" then BCBillies ram. As you can see the nose is a lot higher then the "U" so the metal bars touching the forehead/nose bridge have to raised too.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_28.JPG

Side view.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_29.JPG

Other side
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Photo_30.JPG

The electricians tape around the skull and horns was used to keep them together as they were loose.

I hope these pics bring some clarity to the jig.

BHB

He looks to be real close ? only the one side makes it ? Im a rooky , this thread is good info.

[bighornbob]

He looks to be real close ? only the one side makes it ? Im a rooky , this thread is good info.

He made it by a cm. He was bigger when the shot was made, but a 300 yard roll/fall down the mountain broke about a inch off his long side.

BHB

[budismyhorse]

Ok I see what the problem is ...........BHB is stating the jig is essentially not used for CI purposes and therefore the strict definition and photo in the regs is whats used........

Here is the problem!!!

I've seen more than a few thinhorns in the jig now and the CI's ARE using the jig to show the line. With the bases resting on the U shaped plate the nose is lowered or raised until the bridge of the nose meets the U shaped plate level..........That forms the "line" of legality back to the base of the horn! So for tightly curled rams if they are halfway through the eye socket or more they are legal by the jig.

I'm not arguing if they are doing it right or wrong but that's how its being done in my experiences. That's with multiple different CI's that were recently trained!

BHB's Line is in green and the CI jig method I've seen personally is in red. Which one is correct? You tell me. http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Jig_comparison_of_methods.png
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Photo_291.jpg

[bighornbob]

Ok I see what the problem is ...........BHB is stating the jig is essentially not used for CI purposes and therefore the strict definition and photo in the regs is whats used........

Here is the problem!!!

I've seen more than a few thinhorns in the jig now and the CI's ARE using the jig to show the line. With the bases resting on the U shaped plate the nose is lowered or raised until the bridge of the nose meets the U shaped plate level..........That forms the "line" of legality back to the base of the horn! So for tightly curled rams if they are halfway through the eye socket or more they are legal by the jig.

I'm not arguing if they are doing it right or wrong but that's how its being done in my experiences. That's with multiple different CI's that were recently trained!

BHB's Line is in green and the CI jig method I've seen personally is in red. Which one is correct? You tell me. http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Jig_comparison_of_methods.png
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Photo_291.jpg

I think you are confusing things a little or not realizing what you were seeing in the jig.

1. no where in the regs does it say anything about horn bases in regards to above the bridge of the nose. It just has to break the bridge of the nose. That's where I said you could just as easily use a straight level and run it down the bridge of the nose and see if it hits horn. I think they use the jig for ease of showing it if it goes to court. I know with my ram the bio took pictures of the level on the jig with no ram, then the level on each bar with the ram in place. Even the photos I posted show the horn above the bar and a photo showing the bar being level is all they would need in a court of law if it was short. It would be a little tougher and harder in court if the ram is sitting on some ones lap running a straight edge down.

2. In regards to bases and legality, this is only used for judging 3/4 curls and full curl bighorns (Kootenay regs) (mine was killed under mature bighorn regs). They use the bases as you have to have a starting point for your straight line. So your bases is one point and the bottom edge of the eye socket is your second point that your straight line is drawn between and extended past.

3. Using your example, no where in the regs. does it mention through the middle of the eye socket. Also how do you draw a straight line when you don't have a starting point and a end point. Starting point would be the bases but where do you end the line for it?

4. I think the guys using the jig for above the bridge is just for convenience as it can be easily done

BHB

[MacMtnHunter]

I think you are confusing things a little or not realizing what you were seeing in the jig.

1. no where in the regs does it say anything about horn bases in regards to above the bridge of the nose. It just has to break the bridge of the nose. That's where I said you could just as easily use a straight level and run it down the bridge of the nose and see if it hits horn. I think they use the jig for ease of showing it if it goes to court. I know with my ram the bio took pictures of the level on the jig with no ram, then the level on each bar with the ram in place. Even the photos I posted show the horn above the bar and a photo showing the bar being level is all they would need in a court of law if it was short. It would be a little tougher and harder in court if the ram is sitting on some ones lap running a straight edge down.

2. In regards to bases and legality, this is only used for judging 3/4 curls and full curl bighorns (Kootenay regs) (mine was killed under mature bighorn regs). They use the bases as you have to have a starting point for your straight line. So your bases is one point and the bottom edge of the eye socket is your second point that your straight line is drawn between and extended past.

3. Using your example, no where in the regs. does it mention through the middle of the eye socket. Also how do you draw a straight line when you don't have a starting point and a end point. Starting point would be the bases but where do you end the line for it?

4. I think the guys using the jig for above the bridge is just for convenience as it can be easily done

BHB


That about sums it up there BHB, especially with your photos. This was supposed to be a thread about full curl thinhorns, but things evolve... I agree, the use of the Jig is likely to have proper pictures that will uphold in court if needed. I think the best advice on tight curl rams that might not actually break the bridge of the nose would be to count 8 or more rings or be certain that some portion of the horn, whether it be the tip or some part of the curl extends upward beyond the bridge of the nose. I know that it could be close in some cases, but you would likely be looking at an older ram that may indeed be as old or older than 8 years of age, much like the stone in the photo which looks to me to be at least 8 years old, possible even 9.

[bighornbob]

That about sums it up there BHB, especially with your photos. This was supposed to be a thread about full curl thinhorns, but things evolve... I agree, the use of the Jig is likely to have proper pictures that will uphold in court if needed. I think the best advice on tight curl rams that might not actually break the bridge of the nose would be to count 8 or more rings or be certain that some portion of the horn, whether it be the tip or some part of the curl extends upward beyond the bridge of the nose. I know that it could be close in some cases, but you would likely be looking at an older ram that may indeed be as old or older than 8 years of age, much like the stone in the photo which looks to me to be at least 8 years old, possible even 9.

Yah not sure how they deal with a tight curled ram that does not break the nose. To me it pretty cut and dry about the above the bridge of the nose part but there was that trial a few years ago out of smithers I believe where a tight curled ram was taken to court and won.

BHB

[ElectricDyck]

Ok so back to this one, it clearly doesn't break the bridge of the nose from BHB's description, so they must be judging them as bud is my horse says? With all the official people that supposedly surf this site you'd think this would be easy to get some concrete info about....

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/wildimages/091_zpseff964aa.jpg

[bighornbob]

Ok so back to this one, it clearly doesn't break the bridge of the nose from BHB's description, so they must be judging them as bud is my horse says? With all the official people that supposedly surf this site you'd think this would be easy to get some concrete info about....

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/wildimages/091_zpseff964aa.jpg

Cant comment on these tight curled sheep. Maybe they are using, "literally" that it makes a full curl. Tip comes up and touches a legality line that is perpendicular to the base? Regardless from what I have seen these are pretty rare. I guess they would be like the mature moose that because of a deformity has two points or less on one antler and a huge paddle on the other. Still legal under spike-fork rules but outside the extent of why the rule was made.

Regardless if sheep like this are being considered legal I would not take my chances and shoot one. Plenty of "normal" sheep out there to look for.

BHB

[whitetailsheds]

Yah not sure how they deal with a tight curled ram that does not break the nose. To me it pretty cut and dry about the above the bridge of the nose part but there was that trial a few years ago out of smithers I believe where a tight curled ram was taken to court and won.

BHB


Probably........just a guess here, based on age.
Personally, I see all this talk of the jig confusing, and quite justifiably as some on here have stated even the jigs are set up differently between CI's and CI offices.
To an up and coming sheep hunter this serves them no purpose.
Having it reinforced to a newb to not shoot a ram that is not well and above the bridge of the nose, is best.
To be patient about it.
The full curl rams are out there.
Secondly, knowing how to age.......and this is where my "know-it-all" sheep hunting wisdom comes from seeing as I have taken 2 rams based on age.
I did not make those decisions without alot of time spent talking to experienced sheep hunters and alot of time at several taxidermists doing "hands on" aging.
I would encourage new sheep hunters to read this thread with interest.
Take what you can about breaking the bridge of the nose and realize the time to actually pull the trigger comes with time to observe, good glass/ optics, wait for the ram to give you different angles, and ultimately, if you have any doubt after all the above....and have to TRY to make the ram legal......it's probably not!!!
When that one ram comes wandering out, full curl and more.....you WILL know! It will be so easy!!!

[MacMtnHunter]

Probably........just a guess here, based on age.
Personally, I see all this talk of the jig confusing, and quite justifiably as some on here have stated even the jigs are set up differently between CI's and CI offices.
To an up and coming sheep hunter this serves them no purpose.
Having it reinforced to a newb to not shoot a ram that is not well and above the bridge of the nose, is best.
To be patient about it.
The full curl rams are out there.
Secondly, knowing how to age.......and this is where my "know-it-all" sheep hunting wisdom comes from seeing as I have taken 2 rams based on age.
I did not make those decisions without alot of time spent talking to experienced sheep hunters and alot of time at several taxidermists doing "hands on" aging.
I would encourage new sheep hunters to read this thread with interest.
Take what you can about breaking the bridge of the nose and realize the time to actually pull the trigger comes with time to observe, good glass/ optics, wait for the ram to give you different angles, and ultimately, if you have any doubt after all the above....and have to TRY to make the ram legal......it's probably not!!!
When that one ram comes wandering out, full curl and more.....you WILL know! It will be so easy!!!

Yes, this is what I was trying to reaffirm. The picture of the stone above still is not a square side shot either, maybe he is broomed on the other side, maybe the other side is short. Hard to tell from the photo. I also highly agree with you that looking at sheep horns and doing some aging with some one who knows it the best way to learn. I would still be interested in finding out though if on a true tight curled ram, that if the plane of the nose can be extended back towards the eye socket if, it the horn breaks the plane then it's legal?

[ru rancher]

Probably........just a guess here, based on age.
Personally, I see all this talk of the jig confusing, and quite justifiably as some on here have stated even the jigs are set up differently between CI's and CI offices.
To an up and coming sheep hunter this serves them no purpose.
Having it reinforced to a newb to not shoot a ram that is not well and above the bridge of the nose, is best.
To be patient about it.
The full curl rams are out there.
Secondly, knowing how to age.......and this is where my "know-it-all" sheep hunting wisdom comes from seeing as I have taken 2 rams based on age.
I did not make those decisions without alot of time spent talking to experienced sheep hunters and alot of time at several taxidermists doing "hands on" aging.
I would encourage new sheep hunters to read this thread with interest.
Take what you can about breaking the bridge of the nose and realize the time to actually pull the trigger comes with time to observe, good glass/ optics, wait for the ram to give you different angles, and ultimately, if you have any doubt after all the above....and have to TRY to make the ram legal......it's probably not!!!
When that one ram comes wandering out, full curl and more.....you WILL know! It will be so easy!!!
strongly agree with this i watched my ram for 2 hours just to be sure he was legal not with just over bridge but age just incase i didnt get a square on shoot of his horns that is why for a first ram i would suggest to make sure it will be legal in both ways then when you get your hands on it you will more easily look to see what a ram will look like when he is square to you and such and NEVER try and make the ram look legal if you have to do that it is true most likly he isnt

[budismyhorse]

BHB I agree with you and that's what I used for interpretation for years before I saw one in the jig....... I even let a nice dall sheep go in the Tat that would for sure be legal.... Under the "other method".
What I'm trying to point out is the inconsistency out there I guess.

[ryanb]

As I said...in the regs it doesnt say it has to break the bridge of the nose...it says it has to break the plane of the bridge of the nose. A plane is an infinite 2 dimensional surface. This surface is somewhere through the middle of the skull hehind the forehead on a tight curled ram. When it comes to regs...read them carefully and if you choose to interpret them in an unconventional way be prepared to defend yourself in court.

In reference to electric dicks photo. .. it clearly meets the above interpretation plus its not an exactly square view so may break the actual bridge too.

[boxhitch]

He made it by a cm. He was bigger when the shot was made, but a 300 yard roll/fall down the mountain broke about a inch off his long side.

BHBThey can't measure what isn't there , regardless of what the hunter says he saw.

Attago on the ram , lucky it still measured up.
Good pic of the jig in use ,

[Rackmastr]

Great thread guys!! Wow....lots of interesting opinions, conversation, etc. Some great pics posted too!!!

[GoatGuy]

They can't measure what isn't there , regardless of what the hunter says he saw.

Attago on the ram , lucky it still measured up.
Good pic of the jig in use ,

I agree, congrats to bighornquadbob on the ram.............:mrgreen:

Fortunately BHB is an ethical hunter and I'm sure had it been short when it hit the jig he would have taken his licks.

[boxhitch]

As I said...in the regs it doesnt say it has to break the bridge of the nose...it says it has to break the plane of the bridge of the nose. A plane is an infinite 2 dimensional surface.better re read the regs and get the wording straight. No 'plane ' is mentioned.
There is no mechanism for determining this 'plane' , only the single dimensional line using a straight edge across the nasal bones , the rest of the variables are interpreted by the 'Regional Manager or his designate'. Even if a piece of plywood was used as a 'plane' what points of reference could be used to position it properly ? referenced to eye sockets ? Horn bases ?


it clearly meets the above interpretation plus its not an exactly square view so may break the actual bridge too. Not so clear as the tip cannot be gauged across the nasal bones , the tip doesn't complete a circle or full curl as there is a gap where hair can be seen and the position looks like the near side is higher than the off side so the view isn't level , skewing the left-right level line also.
Based on that one photo , my guess would be illegal.

[Greg]

I shot my first Dall sheep when I was sixteen. My father and I watched it for two days. On the second day and after 5 hours of observing and waffling back and forth the decision was made to shoot. Down goes the ram. After bringing it back to town and having probably 40 experienced sheep hunters look at it about half said it wasn't legal. I sweated it out till the last day I could bring my sheep in to be plugged. The Sheep Biologist said it was legal but barely. She told me to try for a larger ram next time. So many varied opinions even from the people who inspect sheep for a living. Of the three sheep I have brought in, everyone was legal but I have gotten a lecture every inspection.

[boxhitch]

Re the ram in E D 's pic , it could be argued that a tight curl makes 'full curl' if the growth makes a 'full circle' as in the horn tip covers the horn base when viewed from the side.
The problem with that interpretation is that the view can never be positively deemed to be square or level or anything else as there is nothing else to reference too.

[boxhitch]

As in Gregs example , it just shows to go ya that the measuring isn't an exact science , and is subject to interpretation that may very well be different than the one of the hunter.

It is very easy to ensure the thinhorn ram you are looking to kill is legal . If both horn tips can be seen in the same view from the side , there is no doubt one or both 'extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge' , Bang , have a nice day.
Walk away from all the 'what if' and 'if you see it my way' and 'imagine a line' rams. Its not the end of the world if something doesn't get killed.

[Chopper]

He made it by a cm. He was bigger when the shot was made, but a 300 yard roll/fall down the mountain broke about a inch off his long side.


BHB

Jesus ... I never thought of that , what happens when a Ram falls and breaks off to short ? Becomes an illegal Ram ? that could be real pickle ...

[boxhitch]

What 'plane' ?
from the regs

Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram
- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep
whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the
forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely
from the side or which has attained the age of
8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth
annuli as determined by the Regional Manager
or designate. Do not use yearly horn growth
annuli to determine the age of a ram in the
field, because "false" annuli may be present.

[Rackmastr]

The definition I gave is in the Wildlife Act (Hunting Regulations). Not the definition in the Synopsis. I figured I'd use the most legal definition possible, but didn't realize in my quicker posting that the Synopsis doesn't mention the 'plane' but the Act does. Another interesting point for sure.

[Rackmastr]

As in Gregs example , it just shows to go ya that the measuring isn't an exact science , and is subject to interpretation that may very well be different than the one of the hunter.

It is very easy to ensure the thinhorn ram you are looking to kill is legal . If both horn tips can be seen in the same view from the side , there is no doubt one or both 'extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge' , Bang , have a nice day.
Walk away from all the 'what if' and 'if you see it my way' and 'imagine a line' rams. Its not the end of the world if something doesn't get killed.

I know where you're coming from and that was the reason I passed on the opportunity (young ram anyways). I'd love to just find a ram that was obvious and extended way up a couple inches haha. It was an easy enough ram to walk away from and I'm still searching for my first ram after 10+ years of hunting them.

Then again, the argument could be made that all of our bighorn hunting and legal ram hunting is 'imagining a line' while determining legality. Guess that's why theres so many discussions, 'opinions', and other experiences that get tossed into the discussions.

[boxhitch]

another 'huh?'
The rule in regard to the 'plane' is commonly used , thought I would just point out how it is written in the guide most hunters are given in hand to use daily.
Adding the concept of the 'plane' to most hunters only adds more room for error in judgement when something so subjective is tried in the mountains.

While its a good idea to cull those tight curl rams out , anyone taking one like that in for C.I. has a chance the inspector judges it differently.

[boxhitch]

maybe? the rule for bighorn actually has some more detail in regard to how it is judged , and the use of the jig allows it to be set up to be viewed .
'when viewed squarely from the side with both horns in alignment' is impossible to be accurate in the field ,
Using the fine crosshair of the scope can help in judgement when you have a line between two points to visualize , its the elevation compared to the view that is tricky.

Good on you for holding out in the squeakers and walking away. Too many others feel compelled to kill and pray it meets someone elses judgement.

[ryanb]

Sorry I was going by the definition rack master had on post 1. Which is different from the one in the current regs. Is that the old definition?

Edit: missed thats the definition from the wildlife act.

[boxhitch]

No sorrys , its all good discussion
Just shows how tough it is to be accurate in judgement of horn curl, big or thin

[325]

I glassed both of the rams I shot for several hours before pulling the pin. I am sure I have passed several squeaker rams, but honestly, why stress yourself out by shooting a squeaker, and hoping the whole time you're walking up it that it's actually legal.

Some guys are so desperate so shoot a ram, that they take big chances. Not to offend anyone, but I think shooting a sublegal ram demonstrates a lack of hunting maturity...nothing wrong with letting a ram walk.

[Greg]

Here is a tight curl ram. To tell you the truth this one was a total meat ram. My intent on this hunt wasn't for horns at all, just get a legal ram so I have wild meat in university. When it was inspected I received a bit of a lecture. Wish I had a side view picture.

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y467/nleenders/IMG_0614_zps6e1b274f.jpg (http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/nleenders/media/IMG_0614_zps6e1b274f.jpg.html)

[boxhitch]

What was the context of the lecture ?

[Greg]

Since it's a tight curl there's where do you measure above the bridge of the nose. I thought that this ram was way over. The inspector did not like all the missing pieces of horn. True shooting a ram in escape terrain is a bad idea. Notice all the marks on the horns. My biggest mistake was cutting off the front of the skull so the nose was missing, everything seemed to snowball from there. I talked to several inspectors before and witnessed on many occasions outfitters bringing in sheep that had the noses cut off. All the sheep were well over full curl and over eight years of age. The inspectors told me that as long as the horns can fit in the jig (are 8 or over or well past fc) it's fine. The same one that told me it was ok was the one that lectured me. He said if I did it again I would be charged. From now on I just take the most conservative way that keeps me out of trouble. Many lessons learned. If in doubt go without. Follow whats written in the regulations and not what outfitters or one person tells you.

[Hidehanger]

Couple things, 1st, the horns have to be 'naturally attached to the skull' in order to comply with the regulation, otherwise there is no way to accurately determine the curl using the skull as a reference. If you remove the horns to clean the skull, be prepared to possibly lose your ram. 2nd, there is no issue with a tight curled ram as the regulations remain clear that the defining line is it is the forehead-nose bridge line... the line can be extended well beyond the skull and still used for the measurement and can account for 'roman noses' any thinhorns. 3rd, do not cut off the nose of the skull no matter how old you think the ram is, that is non-compliant with the regs (see page 21 of the synopsis) and you could lose your ram in the worst case scenario. I suggest that anyone who has questions contact a CO or the regional wildlife bio rather than possibly taking incorrect advice anywhere else, even from contracted CI inspectors.

[ryanb]

Unfortunately you will get inaccurate opinions on legal matters even from COs or bios. "The CO or the bio or the CI said" won't go far in a legal defense. Your best bet is know the letter of the law and make sure you are following a reasonable interpretation of it.

[wiggy]

yep; ive seen sheep that CO's have stated as legal that were represented by a GO; yet at the same time ive seen a couple guys get screwed on sheep that in my opinion should have passed and I told the guys they should take it to court. Congrats BHB on a beauty bighorn. Ive passed quite a few of them up in over 30 years of hunting them that look like that cause im just too chicken shit to make that call. The worst thing for me is the rams ive seen that don't make it but are absolutely massive horned bighorns that ive had to just sit and have a coffee with cause I couldn't pull on them.