Whitetail Regulations in Region 8

[Fish Hound]

There is a heated debate about whitetail Regs in Region 8 on the Facebook site BC Hunting and Fishing. Specifically about the month long Doe season and the general health of the Whitetail population.

Some of the issues that are being debated are:
Whitetail and Mule deer populations in the Boundary area.
Hunting forecasts listed in various leading hunting magazines.
Buck/Doe ratio.
A Whitetail doe season when many active hunters say the Whitetail population is down.

In an effort to consolidate experienced hunter knowledge and provide accurate advice to M.O.E. Wildlife policy I am asking for your honest opinion. Sharing your recent experiences as well as your past knowledge is pertinent for future management decisions.

My experience was the Whitetail population is significantly down and the Mule deer population is up in the southern sections of MU's 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14. I have successfully hunted these areas for 40 years harvesting many quality bucks and a couple of dry does when the population warranted it. We covered many areas which included Boundary Creek, Wallace Creek, Christian Valley, Anarchist Mountain, Rock Mountain, Ingram Creek, Nicolson Creek, Meyers Creek, Johnstone Creek, Bauldy Mountain, Sidley Meadows, Henderson Creek, Kelly River, Wadell Creek, Beaverdell, and KettleRiver East. We saw MANY Mule deer and few Whitetail at all elevations and all locations. Many of these location's deer populations are either predominantly Whitetail or are both species. I harvested a larger Mule deer buck on Rock Mountain FSR. A location that I have harvested 9 Whitetail bucks and only 1 other Mule deer buck over the years. I only saw a one Whitetail doe and fawn Vs over 50 Mule deer in the area including 13 Mule deer bucks.


Questions:
- is the Whitetail population stable, increasing, decreasing (and in what specific MU's)?
- is the Whitetail Doe season beneficial, ethical, detrimental, irrelevant?
- what is effecting Whitetail populations and where are the effects most seen?
- is the Mule deer population stable, increasing, decreasing (and in what specific MU's)?
- what is effecting Mule deer populations and where are the effects most seen?

[tooley]

I hunt in 8-24, 8-25, and 8-26 and I think the whitetail population is way down. The doe season should only be opened in specific areas (eg. Cherryville) where there is loads and loads of does. Around here the only whitetails left are the ones safe in town or on private land.

[twinpeaks3]

Ive been hunting 8-10 and surounding regions for 35ish years and whitetails are definetly as low as I have ever seen. Mulies are very strong. Unless there is a worry about desease or something and the want they numbers down I just dont get the doe season. Makes no sense when the population is low to start with.

[270ruger]

When I was up in region 8 elk hunting I was literally tripping over the frigging things,seen four bucks in one morning and lots of does,was maybe a mile off the roads.Didnt see any near the roads but away from the roads there was lots of them,only seen one muley which was a doe,usually the area I hunt is full of muley and the rare whitetail seemed the opposite this year.

[one-shot-wonder]

WT population appears stable to increasing. Does have definitely changed tactics and habitats since the GOS was brought in a few years back. They are much more weary...... Trail cams don't lie.
wolf pops have sky rocketed in this neck of the woods, making for further skiddish deer.......again trail cams don't lie.

[one-shot-wonder]

MD pops are stable from what I have witnesses over past decade. The conservative hunting season is not an issue, with does on LEH and a buck season closing on oct. 31......poor habitat from fire suppression and increased WT and predator numbers has caused MD numbers to remain idle. Buck-doe ratios seem fine with lots of young bucks seen, mature bucks don't come out to play much in the time of the current season.

[one-shot-wonder]

"Is the whitetail Doe season beneficial, ethical, detrimental, irrelevant"
Yes,yes,no,no

[Lillypuff]

I don't spend as much time in the area although I went back last year for a week to 8-12 and only saw 7 deer 2 of which were bucks. Use to see about 10 a day with up to 50. I really noticed that you see very few from the comforts of the truck. The areas I hunt were good 10 years ago and now seem to just hold local deer. I am sure there are still lots you just have to work a little harder now. I assume we now have a better buck too doe ratio. My favourite hunt of the year.

[ruger#1]

Was up in 8-12 last year. Not much for whitetails until the snow hit and got them moving around.

[Sitkaspruce]

Here we go again....another thread where hunters and only hunters are to blame for any "Preseived" population decline........

Why do hunters always blame hunters when things are not "What they were last time I was here"??

It amazes me that we still blame each other.......

Cheers

SS

[HarryToolips]

Thanks for bringin this up FishHound. I am in the bush quite a bit in my local areas (8-11, 8-8, 3-12, 8-10) and yes, T cams dont lie..from my observations and many others I know and talk to, in these areas where we have more people, and lots of hunters and high bush road density, ya numbers of both species are way down..I think with Muleys I hope they decrease the "any buck" GOS, contrary to what many "experts" on this site say, I think it would help their pops out..thats what the MOE is doing in areas like the East Kooteneys, where they've totally eliminated it, so obviously they think it will help.. with the whiteys it seems like there is a big time decline, sure a short doe season is good as it helps the buck to doe ratio, but maybe in areas with more hunting pressure they should make it two weeks long or something, and areas where there's lots of whiteys like in certain agricultural areas leave it longer..if the Ministry goes through with their proposal of increasing the limit on whiteys region wide they're outa their minds..

[boxhitch]

Three weeks ago we had snow at higher elevations , and it stuck around for several days in the shaded areas. The two areas I went up into that snow covered area , several days after the initial snow , had traacks polluting the ground. Lots crossing roads and trails , literally thousands out in the 5 -10 year old regen. More moose sign than I have ever seen , but then I was getting into some good moosey areas too. Sure wish I had a bull draw :(
So i feel the MD in the N Oky is doing just fine.

As for WT the sightings in the fields near home are good and the ones in the dark on the way to and from MY hunt areas had the usual dozen or so sightings in the headlights , and if road kills are any indication then WT does numbers are very healthy.

Oh , you say that the WT does are harder to hunt than they used to be ?
Yeah , I do agreee
It gets harder with every birthday.

[PointMan]

I think the wt population is still strong as ever, they're just smarter, more skittish now that there I'd a doe GOS. I think they are spending even more time on ranch pasture, I can't help but wonder if they woul start to move back in the bush where they belonged if there was a promotion of ranch hunting, if that were possible. Just spitballing, haven't really thought much about this.

[coach]

A debate is raging about the month long wt doe season? How many days are in a month? How many days are in the wt doe season??

My trail cams and those of my hunting partners combined with my own observation say the WT population is doing just fine in region 8. Great to hear MD are starting to make more of an appearance in the Boundary country - an area that was getting over run by WT's a few years ago. Sounds like the wt doe season is giving the MD a chance.

BTW - WT's are extremely smart. They learn quickly to avoid roads when hunting season opens up. Change your tactics and you'll be successful.

[GoatGuy]

Went out yesterday morning saw 3 bunches of mulw deer and a couple small groups which was about 25 total, and we saw about 12 wt does and fawns, looked like one little buck and a white-tailed doe & fawn was with 4 mulw does and fawns.

Went out today to check two t-cams. Elk, moose, white-tailed deer, mulw deer.

In parts of Region 8 to the east ungulates are down as we have a pile of wolves. Few spots were deer and moose are getting cleaned out. Lots of t cam pics of wolves moving through areas and lots of scat full of hair. These areas are thick and nasty, we've never actually seen someone on our trail cams in those spots.

West side of the lake I think we're going to see more and more wt's and less mulw deer due to apparent competition precipitated by salvage logging. Pretty soon the pennask plateau will look like the east side of the valley did after it was logged - lots of wt's and mule deer will be down.

Anyways, having said that the current hunting regulations or changes to them won't have an effect on the 'population' of either mulw deer or wt deer. We aren't really 'managing' wildlife, we're managing hunters.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for bringin this up FishHound. I am in the bush quite a bit in my local areas (8-11, 8-8, 3-12, 8-10) and yes, T cams dont lie..from my observations and many others I know and talk to, in these areas where we have more people, and lots of hunters and high bush road density, ya numbers of both species are way down..I think with Muleys I hope they decrease the "any buck" GOS, contrary to what many "experts" on this site say, I think it would help their pops out..thats what the MOE is doing in areas like the East Kooteneys, where they've totally eliminated it, so obviously they think it will help.. with the whiteys it seems like there is a big time decline, sure a short doe season is good as it helps the buck to doe ratio, but maybe in areas with more hunting pressure they should make it two weeks long or something, and areas where there's lots of whiteys like in certain agricultural areas leave it longer..if the Ministry goes through with their proposal of increasing the limit on whiteys region wide they're outa their minds..

There are always two approaches to wildlife management: beliefs and science.

Unfortunately, using beliefs as a core value isn't necessarily the best approach as it has several pitfalls. The most prominent problem with the 'people I know' is most of them will swear up and down they're worried about wildlife, but when you get down to it all they want to do is shoot a big deer - remember, it has to be bigger than their buddies. These people will pull the 'conservation card', but when science comes up and the realities of wildlife management come out, the bottom line is these people are worried about themselves and their opportunity. They don't want to see other hunters in the woods, and they want to see a pile of deer, big ones standing on the side of the road. They want everyone else regulated or removed from the woods. Funniest part about it is, when you get down to the nitty gritty, the 'people I know' who want to shoot big bucks, will shoot a little buck or the first buck every time........... it's usually followed by some excuse like, 'we thought it was the big one', but after 30 years that excuse gets old.

What gets even better about this is the people who want to see 'big bucks' want to close the any buck season. A 4 pts season actually creates fewer older age class deer (see none), and is probably the worst management strategy for deer. There will literally be nothing over 1 1/2 years old at the end of the hunting season, except for those 2 and 3pts that will live to a ripe old age and proportionally do the majority of the breeding. If the 'big buck' hunters wanted big deer they'd be pushing for access restrictions but they don't - why? Because they want to be able to drive all over the country and shoot big bucks. People want an opportunity to shoot a big buck but they don't want to be regulated - they just want everyone else to be regulated.

And that is where beliefs fail. The 'big buck' people want something, but aren't willing to be regulated for it. Alternatively, they want everyone else regulated for an option that want make a 'big buck'. Seems pretty insane, eh?


You don't have to ask people on this site about science, there are researchers and biologists across North America who can tell you how deer work if you so choose. The alternative is to stick to your beliefs.

[Kirby]

There are always two approaches to wildlife management: beliefs and science.



You know, you can be a real dick. Using science and logic rather than biast emotional uninformed arguments. How dare you.

[GoatGuy]

You know, you can be a real dick. Using science and logic rather than biast emotional uninformed arguments. How dare you.

Don't mind discussing the social side of things and what kind of hunting experience/quality people want so long as they don't confuse conservation with their own personal beliefs. There's nothing wrong with wanting a certain kind of hunting experience, or caliber of animal as long as people recognize that is their own personal interest and they also realize how management would have to be shaped to create that kind of opportunity.

Could go on for days about the 'big buck' hunters, what they believe, what they want, what they actually shoot, and lastly, but most importantly, how they don't show up or contribute to projects, management or funding. Seems some people have confused the term user groups - for some we should just call it 'users'.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I grew up in 8-14 and the Whiletail numbers are one-tenth the numbers they used to be. The deer counts, which my family are a part of, are primarily done on private land where hunting and predatory pressure are minimal. Once you start looking on crown land the numbers are staggeringly low.

Counts are done during the winters when deer are concentrated down low. Many times winter range does include private land.

- is the Whitetail population stable, increasing, decreasing (and in what specific MU's)?
Decreasing rapidly - due to an increase in hunting pressures and predatory populations
- is the Whitetail Doe season beneficial, ethical, detrimental, irrelevant?
Detrimental and should be eliminated. Best case it should be an LEH season. We are killing off the small bucks as it is and now, even if they do survive the hunting pressures their companion options are limited.
- what is effecting Whitetail populations and where are the effects most seen?
increase in hunting pressures and predatory populations
- is the Mule deer population stable, increasing, decreasing (and in what specific MU's)?
Slower decrease - in part to the lack of a doe season. Should be reviewed across the board in all MU's. Maybe LEH any buck for a three year period to bring back the population in areas of decreased population? This will be easier to accomplish when the tagging system goes online in 2015.

How easy do you want your hunting???

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?100652-Region-8-Mule-Deer
-
what is effecting Mule deer populations and where are the effects most seen?
Similar as above.
As Kirby said......so many things wrong with this post.

SSS

[BiG Boar]

I really hope that the WT numbers are going down if it helps the mule deer population out. I remember reading a lot of threads a few years back about the mule deer population being way down and being pushed out by the WT's. I thought that was the reason for the doe season. One thing I have noticed is that the does are not seen on the roads nearly as much as before. They hear a truck coming and hit the bush. You would to, if you figured the guys coming up were going to kill your family. 90% of hunters are road hunters and yet they all have a scientific opinion of what is happening to populations. Fact is, the game has changed. By introducing this season, the pressure may be up, and the game is getting wise to the new game.

[aggiehunter]

..lots of locals and hunters I speak with have the same sentiments about not seeing many WT's..but then..why would you beleive a bunch of hunters hey!

[GoatGuy]

My experience was the Whitetail population is significantly down and the Mule deer population is up in the southern sections of MU's 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14. I have successfully hunted these areas for 40 years harvesting . We covered many areas which included Boundary Creek, Wallace Creek, Christian Valley, Anarchist Mountain, Rock Mountain, Ingram Creek, Nicolson Creek, Meyers Creek, Johnstone Creek, Bauldy Mountain, Sidley Meadows, Henderson Creek, Kelly River, Wadell Creek, Beaverdell, and . We saw MANY Mule deer and few Whitetail at all elevations and all locations. Many of these location's deer populations are either predominantly Whitetail or are both species. I harvested a larger Mule deer buck on Rock Mountain FSR. A location that I have harvested 9 Whitetail bucks and only 1 other Mule deer buck over the years. I only saw a one Whitetail doe and fawn Vs over 50 Mule deer in the area.


I 'think' it is generally accepted across hunters and wildlife managers that mule deer in 8-1, 8-12, 8-14 and 8-15 are well below historic levels. There have been several flights that have demonstrated the buck only hunting is not a contributory factor and that ratios are well above conservation related thresholds. It does however appear density is relatively low and recruitment isn't all that great. All of these folks (managers, hunters) can agree that habitat loss, forest ingrowth and fire suppression have all contributed to this. There are several things managers and hunters can't agree on, but the above are commonalities.

I also 'think' that it is impossible for mule deer in that country to be 'up' in one year.


Lastly, I 'think' this is one of the challenges with making a snapshot judgement based on a few days or weeks of hunting.

[HarryToolips]

There are always two approaches to wildlife management: beliefs and science.

Unfortunately, using beliefs as a core value isn't necessarily the best approach as it has several pitfalls. The most prominent problem with the 'people I know' is most of them will swear up and down they're worried about wildlife, but when you get down to it all they want to do is shoot a big deer - remember, it has to be bigger than their buddies. These people will pull the 'conservation card', but when science comes up and the realities of wildlife management come out, the bottom line is these people are worried about themselves and their opportunity. They don't want to see other hunters in the woods, and they want to see a pile of deer, big ones standing on the side of the road. They want everyone else regulated or removed from the woods. Funniest part about it is, when you get down to the nitty gritty, the 'people I know' who want to shoot big bucks, will shoot a little buck or the first buck every time........... it's usually followed by some excuse like, 'we thought it was the big one', but after 30 years that excuse gets old.

What gets even better about this is the people who want to see 'big bucks' want to close the any buck season. A 4 pts season actually creates fewer older age class deer (see none), and is probably the worst management strategy for deer. There will literally be nothing over 1 1/2 years old at the end of the hunting season, except for those 2 and 3pts that will live to a ripe old age and proportionally do the majority of the breeding. If the 'big buck' hunters wanted big deer they'd be pushing for access restrictions but they don't - why? Because they want to be able to drive all over the country and shoot big bucks. People want an opportunity to shoot a big buck but they don't want to be regulated - they just want everyone else to be regulated.

And that is where beliefs fail. The 'big buck' people want something, but aren't willing to be regulated for it. Alternatively, they want everyone else regulated for an option that want make a 'big buck'. Seems pretty insane, eh?


You don't have to ask people on this site about science, there are researchers and biologists across North America who can tell you how deer work if you so choose. The alternative is to stick to your beliefs.
I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done..

[ruger#1]

Lots of factors to think about. One that I always liked is snow. We used to get early snows. And that would bring the deer down. This year it is still 18c in 8-12 and 8-14. Why would deer want to leave their summer grounds. Last year dad and I couldn't find any whitetails until we got a foot of snow. Then we couldn't believe all the tracks and deer we seen. It was like night and day. Global warming and weather are other factors in the equation.

[ruger#1]

I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done.. I will also add. No quads off road.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done..

You are right that the buck to doe ratio is below the target in the Princeton area. It is one of the hardest hit areas in Region 8 due to the proximity to the lower mainland. Changes are likely to happen and decommissioning roads like you mentioned is a very good option....however; low buck to doe ratios like you mentioned aren't low enough to affect the mulw deer populations. You will need to get well down below 10:100 for a several years in a row to start a downward trend in the populations. We manage to 20:100 for other "social" reasons.

SSS

[sawmill]

Around here the Whities are doing fine.I have seen 12 does in two quick morning look abouts and all had twins except for one old doe with a single and one with 3.All the mulies live in town.They are doing fine too.

Couple more weeks and the Big Bucks start getting dumb.

[HarryToolips]

You are right that the buck to doe ratio is below the target in the Princeton area. It is one of the hardest hit areas in Region 8 due to the proximity to the lower mainland. Changes are likely to happen and decommissioning roads like you mentioned is a very good option....however; low buck to doe ratios like you mentioned aren't low enough to affect the mulw deer populations. You will need to get well down below 10:100 for a several years in a row to start a downward trend in the populations. We manage to 20:100 for other "social" reasons.

SSS
Well that's positive! Hope the rest of the region isn't gettin hit as hard as it appears to be because of higher numbers of hunters..thanks for the info bud..

[dana]

Many hunters seem to believe that what they themselves experience during hunting season is real fact. They don't see whitetail does lollygagging around anymore during hunting season so therefore the whitetail population is in a major decline. If hunters actually paid attention to things in their areas outside of hunting season they would form different opinions. I'll give you an example. A couple years ago they opened up a GOS whitetail doe season here in Region 3. Around where I live, whitetails are very pocketed up. They can be seen almost anywhere but they seem to be seen a lot in only certain pockets. There was one pocket in particular that you could see numerous whitetails year round and numerous locals where aware of this pocket. Day 1 of the brand new season 4 whitetail does where killed by locals. Day 2, not a whitetail was found. They vanished. You would swear that the herd had all been slaughtered. The entire rest of the season no one was seeing whitetails where they always saw whitetails. Winter came in and I continued to work in the same area every day. I can tell ya those girls didn't poke their heads out of the thick stuff until February. 1 day of seeing their girlfriends get shot at on Oct 10th put the fear into them and they didn't back out until Feb. If you were a causal observer, you'd swear a bunch of 40 somethings from the Island came in on their quads and killed every last whitetail. Not the case though. Only 4 were killed by locals. Perhaps 1 or 2 more that I never heard about. But not gobs and gobs of does slaughtered. Nope. They are just weary little critters that disappear when they are hunted.

[one-shot-wonder]

what is effecting Whitetail populations and where are the effects most seen?

You didn't like my other responses to your other questions, so I will answer this question with a question.....what is all your local knowledge telling you is effecting the WT populations? A) Hunters? B)Predators? C)Habitat degradation? D) Vehicle Collisions E)All the Above

[one-shot-wonder]

My trail cams and those of my hunting partners combined with my own observation say the WT population is doing just fine in region 8. Great to hear MD are starting to make more of an appearance in the Boundary country - an area that was getting over run by WT's a few years ago. Sounds like the wt doe season is giving the MD a chance.

BTW - WT's are extremely smart. They learn quickly to avoid roads when hunting season opens up. Change your tactics and you'll be successful.

Your Trail cams are quite revealing too.....what a cooincidence!

Interesting how the Mule deer in the Boundary were on life support the last couple years and now have flipped 180........armchair bios counting ungulates from behind their blind.

[dana]

I pretty much grew up in the Christian Valley. I remember the 80's very well. Gobs and Gobs of whitetails. I remember counting over 2000 in on day in Feb. Strangely, I don't remember seeing too many muleys in our family winter counts. I do remember how busy it would get come hunting season, gobs and gobs and gobs of hunters. Way more than you would ever see today. Every pole had 2 or 3 deer some 5 or 6. I remember the farmers bitching about the amount of deer and yet the Bosses wouldn't let ya hunt their land. Back in those days we would count about 30 elk in Bosses fields in the summer. That was pretty much it. Things have changed now. Do I miss the glory days? Well I do know the numbers were so great then the Ministry was concerned enough to hand out lots of January doe tags. I do know that things really started to change in the winter of 98. Why? A huge nasty winter and the whitetails had eaten themselves and many other critters out of house and home. Do we think those numbers in the 80's were a good thing? Should we try to achieve that again at the determent of both whitetails and muleys? Hunting was pretty easy then. Just like today, most hunters were pounding the roads. They were a little smarter then as they did it from the warmth of their trucks instead of today's hunter that freezes their asses off on the quad but still pounding roads regardless. Back then the odd serious hunter hit the mountains of mid and north valley and pulled out some decent bucks. Same can be said about today. If you put in the leg work, time and dedication, you will see some rewards. So what is it we want? Easy hunting to get the boom but risk the bust of a hard winter? Or should we manage for a healthy population that will allow for a come back of the muleys that used to call that valley home pre 70's? Choose your poison.

[one-shot-wonder]

Good observation SD.... I am not an old timer like you ;), however I am witnessing a nervous evolution in R3, where the WT's are expanding and taking over pocket ridges that were once purely MD. As for R8 many areas that were mainly MD are now 50/50 or less.....its too far gone as far as I am concerned. Being the prolific breeders and cunning adapters WT's are will continue to turn the MD-WT ratios upside down. I definately feel WT's have a place in certain parts of southern BC, however I dont like to see it at the expense of MD.

[Fish Hound]

Some of the science I use to form my philosophical hunting beliefs......

the Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/) and the BC Wildlife Harvest Strategy http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documen...strategy99.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/wildlife_harvest_strategy99.pdf) andhttp://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/ws...9_2010_RPT.PDF (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4219_WSI_4219_2010_RPT.PDF) and http://okbcwf.com/ (http://okbcwf.com/) and http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/) and http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/JorgenJensen/030726.doc (http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/JorgenJensen/030726.doc) and http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Statist...gTrapping.aspx (http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/StatisticsBySubject/BusinessIndustry/FisheriesAquacultureHuntingTrapping.aspx)
http://peachlandsportsmen.com/SurveysNovDec2011.pdf

Current hunting forecasts in hunting magazines such as BC Outdoors Fall Hunting forecast, The Outdoor Edge, and the Canadian Outdoors BC Hunting forecast state Whitetail in the Kettle drainage are increasing and Mule deer are stable.

I have hunted the same ground in the 70's till now and agree with your species demographic prognosis dana.....however I don't think the current policies are promoting either species. Changes in cultivated land locations appears to be the main vector for WT decline and Mule deer increase in the Kettle drainage.

[one-shot-wonder]

FH,

Do you support this recomendation taken directly from the hunter recruitment and retention strategy? In general, the Fish and Wildlife Branchshould pursue a quantity over quality direction in its management of deer,moose and elk.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Good observation SD.... I am not an old timer like you ;), however I am witnessing a nervous evolution in R3, where the WT's are expanding and taking over pocket ridges that were once purely MD. As for R8 many areas that were mainly MD are now 50/50 or less.....its too far gone as far as I am concerned. Being the prolific breeders and cunning adapters WT's are will continue to turn the MD-WT ratios upside down. I definately feel WT's have a place in certain parts of southern BC, however I dont like to see it at the expense of MD.

There sure are examples of this scattered around the valley.
I know I've told this story before but it's fitting enough for a repeat here.

My Aunt and Uncle lived above Antler's beach against crown land. Before the die-off in 1998 they saw noting but mulies during the winter months. After the die-off it was nothing but white tails.
I chase yotes in the winter up there each year and still only see white tails. It's a relatively small area but this is just one example of how whitetails can come back faster and out compete mule deer....not to mention that they come back fast enough to carry over predator numbers instead od seeing predator numbers drop after a die-off.

SSS

[dana]

The biggest blow to Antler's Saddle was the Connector fencing in during the summer of 88. That cut straight through the migration routes. That fall tons of deer were caught on the wrong side of the fence. They walked up and down beating themselves against it until the winter winds got too cold and they gave up and headed the other way towards Douglas Lake and Merrit. that particular winter was bitterly cold. First time I had ever seen the big lake freeze over. Lots of the deer that were on the Peachland side of the fence died. The Peachland Sportsman had a feeding program that winter because thing were so dire. I lived right adjacent to the Saddle and had over 60 whitetails in our hay every night. The whiteys were more in Deep Creek area then and not much actually on the Saddle. I normally found a ton of whitey sheds every spring in the draw. Muley sheds were higher up. The years that followed that winter showed the numbers of muleys continued to drop on the Saddle. It rebounded a bit before the 96 and 98 winters hit them hard again. The whiteys seemed to fare a little better.

[dana]

Some of the science I use to form my philosophical hunting beliefs......

the Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/) and the BC Wildlife Harvest Strategy http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documen...strategy99.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/wildlife_harvest_strategy99.pdf) andhttp://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/ws...9_2010_RPT.PDF (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4219_WSI_4219_2010_RPT.PDF) and http://okbcwf.com/ (http://okbcwf.com/) and http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/) and http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/JorgenJensen/030726.doc (http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/JorgenJensen/030726.doc) and http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Statist...gTrapping.aspx (http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/StatisticsBySubject/BusinessIndustry/FisheriesAquacultureHuntingTrapping.aspx)

Current hunting forecasts in hunting magazines such as BC Outdoors Fall Hunting forecast, The Outdoor Edge, and the Canadian Outdoors BC Hunting forecast state Whitetail in the Kettle drainage are increasing and Mule deer are stable.

I have hunted the same ground in the 70's till now and agree with your species demographic prognosis dana.....however I don't think the current policies are promoting either species. Changes in cultivated land locations appears to be the main vector for WT decline and Mule deer increase in the Kettle drainage.


I don't see the current regs as an issue. Mule deer are being managed very conservatively and with current pops estimated low in that area of the province, a conservative approach is probably the best move. I remember back in the 80s when the muley season was set conservatively because of the migration patterns and high hunter densities due to the high whitetail pops. They didn't want to put them at risk when the migrated. They closed down the season on Oct 30 for both species and then opened up the season for whitetail only come mid month. This was all in an effort to harvest a booming whitetail pop and restrict a declining mule deer pop. So now we are at the cross roads of another whitey boom and which would the last kick in the nuts for muleys in those zones. So the ministry decides to open a Gos on whitey does. 2 years in and you are seeing the fact it is indeed working as it is intended to do. So why are you worried. If you are a whitetail nut you must know that they are more resiliant than even coyotes. A Gos doe season is not going to put the whitetail in danger of becoming extinct. If you don't control their numbers, you can indeed see that happen to the mule deer in those units.

[GoatGuy]

I don't see the current regs as an issue. Mule deer are being managed very conservatively and with current pops estimated low in that area of the province, a conservative approach is probably the best move. I remember back in the 80s when the muley season was set conservatively because of the migration patterns and high hunter densities due to the high whitetail pops. They didn't want to put them at risk when the migrated. They closed down the season on Oct 30 for both species and then opened up the season for whitetail only come mid month. This was all in an effort to harvest a booming whitetail pop and restrict a declining mule deer pop. So now we are at the cross roads of another whitey boom and which would the last kick in the nuts for muleys in those zones. So the ministry decides to open a Gos on whitey does. 2 years in and you are seeing the fact it is indeed working as it is intended to do. So why are you worried. If you are a whitetail nut you must know that they are more resiliant than even coyotes. A Gos doe season is not going to put the whitetail in danger of becoming extinct. If you don't control their numbers, you can indeed see that happen to the mule deer in those units.

There might be a few areas where we'll see reduced densities, but overall I expect wt range will continue to expand rapidly and likely that mule deer will very slowly decline.

[GoatGuy]

The biggest blow to Antler's Saddle was the Connector fencing in during the summer of 88. That cut straight through the migration routes. That fall tons of deer were caught on the wrong side of the fence. They walked up and down beating themselves against it until the winter winds got too cold and they gave up and headed the other way towards Douglas Lake and Merrit. that particular winter was bitterly cold. First time I had ever seen the big lake freeze over. Lots of the deer that were on the Peachland side of the fence died. The Peachland Sportsman had a feeding program that winter because thing were so dire. I lived right adjacent to the Saddle and had over 60 whitetails in our hay every night. The whiteys were more in Deep Creek area then and not much actually on the Saddle. I normally found a ton of whitey sheds every spring in the draw. Muley sheds were higher up. The years that followed that winter showed the numbers of muleys continued to drop on the Saddle. It rebounded a bit before the 96 and 98 winters hit them hard again. The whiteys seemed to fare a little better.

The work out of the P.D. showed wt's bounced back from winter die-off of the 90s extremely quickly (like 3 years) and that the recovery was much slower for mule deer(looked like it could be as many as 15 years and that was pre wolves). Wt's high growth rate resulted in very little change in the predator pop (cougars) when you would normally expect a crash which would allowed prey populations to increase relatively quickly.

Being that mule deer are much more susceptible to predation than wt in forest covered habitat, mule deer were killed more often and the species is also a slower reproducer.

So bad winter, wt's bounce back, cougars don't crash, more mule deer eaten and fewer reproduced.

[Fish Hound]

When are you people going to stop saying "why are you worried" or "many road hunters think they're experienced", etc.. Which implies that my particular experience was

Posting on this site does not give you game management knowledge.

I posted legitimate questions that are also being debated in another forum. Longtime local ranchers, butchers, and hunters are currently seeing and talking about these issues in the Rock Creek area. I posted their names and locations. Talk to them yourselves.

I gave the literature and the locations of publications to read and formulate your own opinion.

This will be the last time I answer these irritating questions you keep asking (read next paragraph below):
I would never take quantity over quality!
Current Government policy is not promoting healthy game populations. Harvests numbers have consistently been dropping....deer populations are doing the same. The current policies are contributing to this. Some say at an alarming rate.....hunter numbers are now going up...........anomaly = higher Mule deer numbers at all elevations in the south sections of 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14.
So I thought let's talk about it. You people don't talk you condescend.

Who cares about my/your/anyone's single opinion on what is the best for game management. Or what is the best mix of game.......I posted what many locals are stating nothing more......I posted what I saw.......then I was challenged to provide the numbers and information and I did.........Hard to believe the array childish statements and names I have been subjected to here and in private messages on this site (from Trophy fag to armchair Facebook whore)......so repugnant!

I was born and raised there. Grew up and worked there. Guided for Weins there. Was part of the Kettle Valley Wildlife Association. I Go back every year to many of my private land (local ranches) as well as public land. Store my harvests locally at the butchers..........enough of this.......


The masses will determine what wildlife management strategies we take through the vote.

[boxhitch]

I posted legitimate questions that are also being debated in another forum.Hope you linked this thread to them , they can pick up some good info too.

Posting on this site does not give you game management knowledge. backwards. The knowledge is gained , then added to this thread.

[GoatGuy]

When are you people going to stop saying "why are you worried" or "many road hunters think they're experienced", etc.. Which implies that my particular experience was

Posting on this site does not give you game management knowledge.

I posted legitimate questions that are also being debated in another forum. Longtime local ranchers, butchers, and hunters are currently seeing and talking about these issues in the Rock Creek area. I posted their names and locations. Talk to them yourselves.

I gave the literature and the locations of publications to read and formulate your own opinion.

This will be the last time I answer these irritating questions you keep asking (read next paragraph below):
I would never take quantity over quality!
Current Government policy is not promoting healthy game populations. Harvests numbers have consistently been dropping....deer populations are doing the same. The current policies are contributing to this. Some say at an alarming rate.....hunter numbers are now going up...........anomaly = higher Mule deer numbers at all elevations in the south sections of 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14.
So I thought let's talk about it. You people don't talk you condescend.

Who cares about my/your/anyone's single opinion on what is the best for game management. Or what is the best mix of game.......I posted what many locals are stating nothing more......I posted what I saw.......then I was challenged to provide the numbers and information and I did.........Hard to believe the array childish statements and names I have been subjected to here and in private messages on this site (from Trophy fag to armchair Facebook whore)......so repugnant!

I was born and raised there. Grew up and worked there. Guided for Weins there. Was part of the Kettle Valley Wildlife Association. I Go back every year to many of my private land (local ranches) as well as public land. Store my harvests locally at the butchers..........enough of this.......


The masses will determine what wildlife management strategies we take through the vote.

A very basic paper:

http://www.wildlifemanagementinstitute.org/PDF/4-Effects%20of%20WhiteTailed....pdf

[lovemywinchester]

1998
3062
2388
612


1999
2354
1766
565


2000
2365
1797
544


2001
2900
2175
696


2002
2727
1991
682


2003
3160
2275
822


2004
2179
1504
632


2005
3161
2308
790


2006
2780
2029
695


2007
2509
1832
627


2008
2484
1863
571


2009
2634
2107
500


2010
3604
2126
1370


2011
3567
2069
1427




H.

Very interesting topic. Thanks to all the contributers. Can you explain this chart Kirby? Whats what on here. Thanks

[hare_assassin]

Very interesting topic. Thanks to all the contributers. Can you explain this chart Kirby? Whats what on here. Thanks

Yes, some headings for the columns would be helpful.

[GoatGuy]

probably total wt harvest, buck harvest, antlerless harvest r 8

[Stéphane]

Really good study. Don't you just love it to see how one species brings one predator to the other and benefits from it? I have been reading the WT "pest control" from Dana, without really believing nor disagreeing with him. But after reading that paper, I have to admit, the guys knows his stuff.

Good work, keep that coming. Also thanks for the harvest chart. Unbelievable the increase in antlerless. Was there no OS prior to 2010? Sorry, I still fairly new to hunting.

[Fish Hound]

Again, yes you are condescending.

I didn't bitch about the answers........I appreciate the answers. Show me where I bitched about the answers? I did bitch about the self centred attitude that many of the heavy posters display here. I too spend those same hours, have attested and spoke at many Rocky Mountain Elk foundation and BCWF seminars. If you're a ministry employee then fess up.

The Washington deer paper was bang on in 2008 but (as I reported before) not what I saw last year and defiantly not what I saw a lot of this year. Which doesn't mean my observations are the know all end all......just what I saw and what was talked about with butchers and locals. So I brought it here for further debate. Do you understand debate? Condescension is not part of debate........well in this government it is!

I don't believe maximin #'s is the healthiest population........it will crash......it's a mix of species that the habitat can support .....but I do believe the current Government policies (what no one wants to debate, including you) are no contributing to a healthy population and that's what locals are talking about. But I guess your policies, Mary Polak, trump all local knowledge and experience.

I did post the link to the harvest stats. You're posting the total harvest, not Region 8 numbers only. I am only talking about the areas I posted 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14. But they are they are traditionally the highest deer harvest areas in the province. You coffer numbers should show that. The north is contributing heavily now.

[GoatGuy]

Again, yes you are condescending.

I didn't bitch about the answers........I appreciate the answers. Show me where I bitched about the answers? I did bitch about the self centred attitude that many of the heavy posters display here. I too spend those same hours, have attested and spoke at many Rocky Mountain Elk foundation and BCWF seminars. If you're a ministry employee then fess up.

The Washington deer paper was bang on in 2008 but (as I reported before) not what I saw last year and defiantly not what I saw a lot of this year. Which doesn't mean my observations are the know all end all......just what I saw and what was talked about with butchers and locals. So I brought it here for further debate. Do you understand debate? Condescension is not part of debate........well in this government it is!

I don't believe maximin #'s is the healthiest population......but I do know the Government policies (what no one wants to debate, including you) are no contributing to a healthy population and that's what locals are talking about.
But I guess your policies, Mary Polak, trump all.

I did post the link to the harvest stats. You're posting the total harvest, not Region 8 numbers only. and I am only talking about the areas I posted 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14. But they are they are traditionally the highest deer harvest areas in the province. The north is contributing heavily now.

The big issue in that part of the region (including 8-15) has been declining mule deer populations.

The literature and applied research is very explicit on what causes mule deer declines. Those are habitat loss/ingrowth/fire suppression and competition (direct and apparent) with wt's.

[Fish Hound]

And as I said, I was told, and saw.......what appears to be a marked increase in the Mule deer population.........in the areas I described.

[GoatGuy]

And as I said, I was told, and saw.......what appears to be a marked increase in the Mule deer population.........in the areas I described.

Hopefully things are bouncing back.

Having said that, it is unlikely to see a significant population increase in one or two years with mule deer unless you have a widespread change in habitat (ie a forest fire across at least 10 or more square kms). That area has been flown 3 of the last 5 years IIRC and recruitment has never been what one would consider 'good' or 'great'.

That is the problem with a snapshot in time.

Nevertheless it gets back to the question at hand: Do people who live and hunt in that area want to see mule deer increase or do they want to see mule deer continue to dwindle?

[Taurusguy]

Was in region 8-1 this past weekend. Never have I seen more hunters in the area I hunt every year. Nobody was seeing anything that I talked to (was probably 6 quads and 5 camps in my areaand about 6 trucks too plus the logging going on) I managed to see 2 WT and about 10 MD, 1 moose, 2 yotes, and a really nice 4pt but didn't shoot cuz I only had its azz to shoot at for 3 seconds. This year has been the lowest for deer sightings since I have started going to 8-1 and my daughter and I hiked from 6:30am til 6:30pm for 5 days. Well off the roads.

So to me.. Seems populations of WT and MD are down in region 8-1. But as others have said I'm no biologist and am only speculating because of the lower sightings. Hunters can't really tell what populations are really like since we don't have access to every inch of the land.

[GoatGuy]

Number of wt deer hunters MU 8-01 1990-2011


1990
633


1991
658


1992
831


1993
891


1994
773


1995
729


1996
562


1997
646


1998
691


1999

576


2000
643


2001
626


2002
680


2003
530


2004
341


2005
449


2006

450


2007
564


2008
653


2009
586


2010
732


2011
507



Year, hunters, days



1990
633
3689


1991
658
3589


1992
831
5141


1993
891
5854


1994
773
5291


1995
729
5172


1996
562
3487


1997
646
4153


1998
691
4022


1999
576
3143


2000
643
3652


2001
626
3946


2002
680
4297


2003
530
2700


2004
341
2327


2005
449
2620


2006
450
2323


2007
564
3178


2008
653
3801


2009
586
3985


2010
732
4589


2011
507
3903

[GoatGuy]

Year, number of wt hunters and days MU 8-12


1990
1847
10592


1991
2324
12911


1992
2649
14027


1993
3087
17736


1994
2724
15357


1995
2829
15588


1996
2225
13452


1997
2402
14758


1998
2484
15077


1999
2239
12861


2000
2198
13218


2001
2064
13017


2002
2161
11602


2003
1774
9499


2004
1264
6560


2005
1720
9111


2006
1697
9055


2007
1819
9631


2008
1757
9929


2009
1689
9195


2010
2333
13137


2011
1877
11003

[GoatGuy]

Year, wt deer hunters, days 8-14


1990
1716
9913


1991
1909
10309


1992
2322
13859


1993
3058
17916


1994
2605
15699


1995
2755
18091


1996
2093
13575


1997
2105
13658


1998
2259
14478


1999
2070
11855


2000
1982
11575


2001
1891
11273


2002
1996
10719


2003
1630
9696


2004
1213
6855


2005
1617
9130


2006
1750
9572


2007
1604
9297


2008
1388
7958


2009
1480
9117


2010
1896
10917


2011
1573
9987

[B-rad]

I have allllll my WT sightings marked on a map since year 2000,,,,, all I know is you can see(on my map)the movement of population of WT dramatically,,,,,,now where I hunt for WT is literally a 50/50 chance of WT or MD,,,,the MD population in my areas are bout the same,,,,,but,,,,,the ratio buck to doe averages bout 1-2 bucks for every 15 does,,,,,,so I some what think it is OR could be a combination of a couple things as well as the whitetail pushin through to new areas,,,,,,,,1-the any buck season,,might be to much pressure on the MD,,,,,2-the whitetail really are pushing their way through the MD habitat,,,,3-predation is coming waaaaay up in last few years,,,,4-general loss of habitat,,need more burns/forest fires

[GoatGuy]

Here are a few sources for those who are keen on white-tailed deer management:

Ballard, W.B, Lutz, D., Keegan, T.W., Carpenter, L.H., deVos, J.C.Jr. (2001). Deer-predator relationships: a review of recent North American studes with emphasis on mule and black-tailed deer. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 2001, 29(1): 99-115.

Blanchong, J.A., Joly, D.O., Samuel M.D., Langbenberg, J.A., Rolley, R.E., Sausen., J.F. (2006). White-tailed Deer Harvest From the Chronic Wasting Disease Eradication Zone in South-Central Wisconsin. Wildlife Society Bulletin: 34: 725-731.

Brinkman, T.J, Jenks, J.A., DePerno, C.S., Haroldson, B.S., Osborn, R.G. (2004). Surivival of white-tailed deer in an intensively farmed region of Minnesota. Wildlife Society Bulletin 2004, 32(3): 726-731.

Brown, T.L., Decker, D.J., Riley, S.J., Enck, J.W., Lauber, T.B., Cutris, P.D., Mattfield., G.F. (2000). The future of hunting as a mechanism to control white-tailed deer populations. Wildlife Society Bulletin 28:797-807.

Delgiudice, G.D., Fieberg, J., Riggs, M.R., Powell, M.C., Pan, W. (2006). A Long-Term Age-Specific Survival Analysis of Female White-tailed Deer. The Journal of Wildlife Management, 70(6): 1556-1568.

Geist, V. (1998). Deer of the World: Their Evolution, Behavior, and Ecology. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books.

Rawinski, T.J. (2008). Impacts of White-tailed Deer Overabundance in Forest Ecosystems: An Overview. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture. Newtown Square, PA.

Robinson, H.S., Wielgus, R.B., and Gwilliam, J.C. (2002). Cougar predation and population growth of sympatric mule deer and white-tailed deer.

Robinson, H.S. (2002). Movements, survival and mortality of white-tailed deer in the Pend D’oreille River Valley.

Brown, T.L., Decker, D.J., Riley, S.J, Enck, J.W., Lauber, T.B., Curtis, P.D., and Mattfield, G.F. (2000). The future of hunting as a mechanism to control whitetailed deer populations. Wildlife Society Bulleting 28:797-807.

Fielding, H. 1(994). Harvest: An Essential Strategy for White-tailed Deer Management.

Pennsylvania Game Commission. (2003). Population Management Plan for White-tailed deer in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania Game Comission.

[GoatGuy]

A bit of background on white-tailed deer in general.

Reproduction
The primary reason why white-tailed deer have such a high population growth rate, compared to mule deer, is their high rate of reproduction. Generally, white-tailed does breed at an earlier age, have higher conception rates and twin more often than mule deer.

White-tailed fawns may breed, generally during the second estrus, providing they reach a body size of 36kg. Mule deer fawns, on the other hand, do not normally breed.

In Alberta, Wishart found conception rates for white-tailed fawns were 56% and does were 100% (Wishart, 1984). Wishart also found conception rates for mule deer does at 18-24 months of age were 80%, while conception rates for older does was just over 90% (Wishart, 1984).

White-tailed deer also twin more often than mule deer. In Alberta white-tailed deer averaged 1.10 fetuses per pregnant fawn and 2.08 fetuses for deer older than one year (Alberta, 2005, p.5). Data from five US States found the fetal rate for mule deer does averages ~1.5; Wishart found it was ~1.8 at Camp Wainright in Alberta (Alberta, 1989, p.5; Wishart, 1984). Although fetal rates are higher than birthing rates (because of some in utero mortality), they are a useful indicator of productivity. It should be noted that productivity is generally greater in areas of farmland as compared to forested regions due to an abundance of food supply (Pennsylvania Game Commission, 2003; Tonkovich et al., 2004).

Mortality & Hunting
White-tailed deer are more difficult to harvest compared to mule deer, likely due to their evolutionary strategies (Geist, 1998). White-tailed deer evolved in wet forested areas. During the rut bucks attract does through scrapes. White-tailed deer rut successfully in areas with low visibility making them difficult to hunt outside of and during the rut. Conversely mule deer evolved in open habitats and do not use scrapes. Mule deer seek out does in open habitats which make them far more susceptible to hunter harvest particularly during the rut.

Success rates are lower for white-tailed deer in comparative seasons across most jurisdictions where mule deer and white-tailed deer exist, even where white-tailed deer are more abundant. This is also true for British Columbia (BC MoE, 2007). In addition, hunters in BC seem to prefer to hunt mule deer (BC MoE, 2007).

Studies have found white-tailed deer populations in forested areas are generally controlled by density-dependant factors (i.e. population size in relation to carrying capacity) not hunting (Giles and Findlay, 2004). In BC, there are also likely density-independent factors such as weather which control populations. In jurisdictions with high visibility (prairies and farmland) the population can be reduced, often through high bag limits (Brinkman et. al, 2004). While it has not been studied intensively, it has been suggested that recreational hunting likely cannot regulate or severely reduce white-tailed deer populations across broad areas in forested habitats (Brown et. al, 2000, Giles and Findaly, 2004). Some studies have suggested that bag limits may need to be set in excess of hunter demand (extremely high bag limits) in order to effectively reduce white-tailed deer populations (Brown et. al, 2000, Blanchong et. al, 2006).

The consequences of not reducing and maintaining white-tailed deer numbers below habitat carrying capacity are numerous. High density deer populations can result in decreased productivity (Sargent and Carter, 1999; Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, 2007; Pennsylvania, 2003; Fielding, 1994; The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, 2008; Tonkovich, 2004), skewed sex ratios (Pennsylvania, 2003), decreased antler growth (Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, 2007; Fielding, 1994; The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, 2008; Tonkovich, 2004) and negative long-term impacts upon their range (Rawinski, T.J., 2008; Sargent and Carter, 1999; Pennsylvania Game Commission, 2003; Fielding, 1994; Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, 2008). The population may also be more vulnerable to winter die-offs, particularly during severe winters (Sargent & Carter, 1999; Pennsylvania Game Commission, 2003; The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, 2008).

White-tailed deer may also be limited by predation from coyotes, wolves, bears and mountain lions, particularly predation on neonates (Ballard et al, 2001; Delgiudice et al, 2006).

In 2004, Tonkovich’s et al. study Trends in Reproductive Performance and Condition of White-tailed Deer in Ohio showed as deer density increased in relation to carrying capacity pregnancy rates of fawns and yearlings decreased, fetuses/doe decreased and mean body mass decreased in both hill country and farmland. In hill country mean antler beam diameter also decreased. The negative effect on productivity and body mass was generally more pronounced in hill country. Deer in hill country were believed to be over MSY (~56% of ecological carrying capacity) and farmland deer were at 35-40% of ecological carrying capacity.

[boxhitch]

what ?! anything penned in BC ?


:) jk

[Hunting guy]

Was in region 8-1 this past weekend. Never have I seen more hunters in the area I hunt every year. Nobody was seeing anything that I talked to (was probably 6 quads and 5 camps in my areaand about 6 trucks too plus the logging going on) I managed to see 2 WT and about 10 MD, 1 moose, 2 yotes, and a really nice 4pt but didn't shoot cuz I only had its azz to shoot at for 3 seconds. This year has been the lowest for deer sightings since I have started going to 8-1 and my daughter and I hiked from 6:30am til 6:30pm for 5 days. Well off the roads.

So to me.. Seems populations of WT and MD are down in region 8-1. But as others have said I'm no biologist and am only speculating because of the lower sightings. Hunters can't really tell what populations are really like since we don't have access to every inch of the land.

Quality hunting experience no doubt, just ask the bios. If only you where a better hunter like Dana or had a helicopter to spot them like GG. Funny that hunters see few deer while bios see plenty???? Good grant money for whitetail counts that come up short in the spring. Tie in mule deer and wolf into the equation and you have the perfect storm of wildlife "management" funding.

[Hunting guy]

Hunters are a VERY VERY bad barometer of populations, they have very limited experience, very localized knowledge base and are VERY biast in what they see. I could go on about this for hours but really its a waste of time.



If not for hunters your thousands of hours a year would be donated time, just like hunters. Would you still do it? Like hunters do? Don't forget more hunters = more biologist $$$$ Hunters are complaining about their hunting experiences more now than a few seasons ago, this should be important to you. Funny hunters are told to tell somebody important about changes they want to see. I guess there isn't anyone important on this site because when a problem is brought up by so many they just get called lazy and stupid.

[boxhitch]

Funny that hunters see few deer while bios see plenty??Not so odd if you consider the two are spending time in different areas at different times. Counts aren't done during hunting

A few
Hunters are complaining , don't generalize. You make it sound like you have a huge following, maybe form a club and sit at the table with the rest of the groups.

[Hunting guy]

maybe form a club and sit at the table with the rest of the groups.[/QUOTE]

Are you posting from your club table right now? Can my group be provided public funding to match? That seems to be the your only response to criticism. No matter your ever changing biologist theory's, the hunting is getting worse and that view is shared by the majority of hunters I speak too.

[GoatGuy]

Are you posting from your club table right now? Can my group be provided public funding to match? That seems to be the your only response to criticism. No matter your ever changing biologist theory's, the hunting is getting worse and that view is shared by the majority of hunters I speak too.

Where do you hunt?

[Hunting guy]

Region 4 mostly

[Stéphane]

While we are at it, could one of you guys dig out some research regarding does with fawns? I know Walking Buffalo posted once that orphaned fawns have only 15% less chance of survival than if they stay with their moms. If one of you guys could post some paper on it, that would be great. I just read someone passing on does with fawns. It doesn't make sense to me that we would be allowed to kill does if they knew the fawns would die. I passed last year on a doe because it had a fawn.

Again thanks for all the great info.

[GoatGuy]

Region 4 mostly

west or east?

What species in decline?

[hunterdon]

WT population appears stable to increasing. Does have definitely changed tactics and habitats since the GOS was brought in a few years back. They are much more weary...... Trail cams don't lie.
wolf pops have sky rocketed in this neck of the woods, making for further skiddish deer.......again trail cams don't lie.

Excellent observations One Shot!

Human nature being what it is, most people anyways, if they don't "see" deer, then they conclude there are no deer or few. All sign (tracks, trail cams, etc. as you stated don't lie.

My observations here in Region 8-23.(past 25 years)
-since implementing GOS on whitetail does in October, whitetail population has decreased a bit, (a good thing) too many vehicle/deer collisions.
-for the past 3 years I now see mulies regularly in areas where I saw none before for many years.

My conclusion;
1-GOS on whitetail does seems to have benefited mule deer populations
2-Overpopulation of whitetails has improved.

As for the ethical question. It should not even be a question. There is nothing unethical about the legal taking of a game animal by legal means and in a legal hunting season. Besides, it gives hunters (especially the less experienced and perhaps the elderly, a chance to put some excellent meat on the table.) A very good reason to hunt, which unfortunately gets missed a bit these days. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Hunting guy]

Both east and west, decline in mule deer, whitetail deer, mountain goat and elk.

[GoatGuy]

Both east and west, decline in mule deer, whitetail deer, mountain goat and elk.

Mule deer has no antlerless season in either part of the region so hunting is not the cause.

Mountain goat is generally managed LEH, could be over-harvest in some sub MUs, but overall things look good from the dead-side data and current population estimates. We have seen some population declines and will expect reduction in hunting opportunities.

Outside of the trench elk hunting is 6 pts only so it's statistically impossible to create a population decline in those areas.

WT antlerless season could have localized impacts. Having said that the guys were still having 100 deer days in september - of course after the antlerless season started the deer timbered up.

So, if it's 'everything' that's in decline, given the current seasons by and large these declines aren't caused by hunting. The only season that could really have a regulatory effect is the antlerless wt, and possibly goat harvest at the sub mu.

I didn't get out to the EK for the first time in years, but the guys saw a couple dozen legal bulls, best day was 15 bulls. Other buddy went out twice and saw 24 bulls, and the second time all he was doing was packing someone else's bull out. Said the hunting behind the induced road closures was phenomenal.

[one-shot-wonder]

Excellent observations One Shot!

Human nature being what it is, most people anyways, if they don't "see" deer, then they conclude there are no deer or few. All sign (tracks, trail cams, etc. as you stated don't lie.

My observations here in Region 8-23.(past 25 years)
-since implementing GOS on whitetail does in October, whitetail population has decreased a bit, (a good thing) too many vehicle/deer collisions.
-for the past 3 years I now see mulies regularly in areas where I saw none before for many years.

My conclusion;
1-GOS on whitetail does seems to have benefited mule deer populations
2-Overpopulation of whitetails has improved.

As for the ethical question. It should not even be a question. There is nothing unethical about the legal taking of a game animal by legal means and in a legal hunting season. Besides, it gives hunters (especially the less experienced and perhaps the elderly, a chance to put some excellent meat on the table.) A very good reason to hunt, which unfortunately gets missed a bit these days. Just my 2 cents worth.

THe author of this thread doesn't see it our way, but that is fine. I call it the Ostrich theory.......

My cameras and field experience over the past few years aren't the be all end all, just a snapshot of a few select areas. As already stated: Hunter opinions are a terrible way to base management, opinions have no quatitative value, are highly biast, generally un-informed, very small window of observations with terrible sampling methods.

The tables posted with the numbers are what us hunters need to focus on. the past few years have had a refreshing increase in participation but still not up to teh past years and nowhere near the early 80's.

[Hunting guy]

Mule deer- no point restrictions on bucks are removing any chance of a rebound. Antlerless seasons where open untill recently, once deer where almost gone that was taken away.

Goat- are on Gos in some units, some haven't had a count since the GOS was opened.

whitail deer - lets hope the lack of foresite shown on mule deer isn't repeated with the whitail deer, might be too late.

elk - tell an elderly hunter to get out there and hunt the road closures for elk, or some bullshit about seeing 15 legal bulls in a day using the same methods a hunter would have too. Or to apply for a now 30-1 leh cow tag that was over the counter until one month prior to tge season opening. Or just try knowing what your subject area looks like when it's not on a peice of paper in front of you. What makes your buddy's so important that their wildlife counts are taken as the law but mine are taken for lazy people who don't know how to hunt? Maybe your friends can't count. It's frustrating to have someone not take the sudden collapse of hunting so lightly only to find out they haven't even been out to experience it.

[coach]

Hunting guy - what club do you belong to? Do you attend meetings? Are you aware that through your club you have a voice? Do you know that the people you are arguing with in this thread are volunteers, who donate 100's (or 1000's) of hours of their time to ensuring you and I and the rest of us maintain our ability to hunt? Have you been involved in any projects aimed at improving habitat? We can debate all we want about animal numbers - the fact is, you're not bringing much to the table besides your own observations. Someone like you, who is obviously passionate about this stuff can make a much bigger difference by getting involved.

[GoatGuy]

Mule deer- no point restrictions on bucks are removing any chance of a rebound. Antlerless seasons where open untill recently, once deer where almost gone that was taken away.

Other than the Cranbrook GMZ the buck:doe ratios have been good to excellent. Many of them are much, much higher than other parts of the province. The ratios in Cranbrook were well above any conservation related threshold.

I don't even think there has been an antlerless LEH in Region 4 since 1996.

17 years should be sufficient for recovery if you had the habitat to do it. To be honest it's more like 5 years for mule deer in productive habitat after a winter die-off.


Goat- are on Gos in some units, some haven't had a count since the GOS was opened.

If hunting is the problem it's the harvest rate that you need to worry about and as stated, yes, there is the potential for over-harvest which would result in reduced LEH or a change back to LEH from GOS.


whitail deer - lets hope the lack of foresite shown on mule deer isn't repeated with the whitail deer, might be too late.

These two species have been managed completely differently in Region 4 and for good reason. Are you suggesting we manage all ungulates the same now? How fore site has anything to do with a bad winter kill is completely beyond my level of understanding.


elk - tell an elderly hunter to get out there and hunt the road closures for elk, or some bullshit about seeing 15 legal bulls in a day using the same methods a hunter would have too. Or to apply for a now 30-1 leh cow tag that was over the counter until one month prior to tge season opening. Or just try knowing what your subject area looks like when it's not on a peice of paper in front of you. What makes your buddy's so important that their wildlife counts are taken as the law but mine are taken for lazy people who don't know how to hunt? Maybe your friends can't count. It's frustrating to have someone not take the sudden collapse of hunting so lightly only to find out they haven't even been out to experience it.

So the elk population is collapsing?

You said elk were down, now you're complaining about road closures? You recognize there is a distinction between the abundance of elk and whether or not they live behind a road closure or not, right?

The 6 pts season is a fail-safe hunting season. If you are seeing less elk outside of the trench the bottle-neck is predation or habitat - it has nothing to do with hunting.

You're saying elk are way down and you want the GOS on cows opened back up? Really?

I'm quite certain my friends can count - maybe my friends are the ones who do the counts. Last year we saw 34 bulls in 4 days IIRC.


This is what Kirby and others were referring to. There might be fewer animals where you're hunting, and there might not be, but what you're saying, seeing and stating are 3 completely and totally different things.

I never imagined hearing someone say the elk population is collapsing in one breath and in the next complain about the closure of a cow GOS and road closures. WOW!

[Gateholio]

Man, the guys (hardcore wt hunters) I know in Ontario would laugh at this conversation. I was surprised when they told me that they shoot EVERY whitetail they can. Bucks , does, fawns. Like many from BC, I was astonished as I thought it would kill thier populations. They said that they learned a long time ago that if they want a healthy deer herd in thier areas, they need to harvest all types. I protested, saying that they don't have wolves and cougars like we do. They agreed but said they have BIG yotes and they prey on deer, especially fawns.

They have kicked people out of thier hunting group of about 20 people for refusing to shoot does.

And the real kicker? These guys all have a good number of big buck mounts, all from the areas they shoot the hell out of does and young bucks.

[GoatGuy]

Man, the guys (hardcore wt hunters) I know in Ontario would laugh at this conversation. I was surprised when they told me that they shoot EVERY whitetail they can. Bucks , does, fawns. Like many from BC, I was astonished as I thought it would kill thier populations. They said that they learned a long time ago that if they want a healthy deer herd in thier areas, they need to harvest all types. I protested, saying that they don't have wolves and cougars like we do. They agreed but said they have BIG yotes and they prey on deer, especially fawns.

They have kicked people out of thier hunting group of about 20 people for refusing to shoot does.

And the real kicker? These guys all have a good number of big buck mounts, all from the areas they shoot the hell out of does and young bucks.

BC has been the 'tail' of all jokes for wt management across NA for a long time, particularly for the @ssinine 3 week long, 4 pts wt deer season in the Peace. That includes from the counterparts across that imaginary line in Alberta where they've had long antlerless seasons for decades and have been killing HUGE wt's every year.

Can't tell you how many wt managers and researchers have made snide remarks about the way we manage wt's. It's nice to be known for something, but a person would like that to be for doing a good job.

[E.V.B.H.]

To G.G. And everyone else who knows what they are talking about,

Your efforts to educate us are not in vain, I learn a lot from what you have to say and appreciate the effort to pass your knowledge along. Don't let a few stubborn hard heads discourage you. There are probably more people learning from what you are saying than disagreeing. As a relatively new hunter (less than ten years) I don't have any preconceived notions of correct management passed along to me from anyone so I am eager to learn from people who do this full time.

Also for what it worth I see lots of game when I hunt. Rare to spend a day where I don't see a least a doe.

[GoatGuy]

Stephane,

There has been a little bit of work on this. A study was conducted on orphaned fawns in texas and they found survival after one year (IIRC) at 79% of un-orphaned fawns.

An older study found that orphaned fawn bucks actually increased and another that it made no difference, although it looked like twins might be more susceptible to mortality because they didn't seem to link up with maternal groups as well. This was all in texas IIRC.

In many cases wt's and mule deer travel in maternal groups (family units), so if a doe is harvested the fawn will stick with the group.

[GoatGuy]

To G.G. And everyone else who knows what they are talking about,

Your efforts to educate us are not in vain, I learn a lot from what you have to say and appreciate the effort to pass your knowledge along. Don't let a few stubborn hard heads discourage you. There are probably more people learning from what you are saying than disagreeing. As a relatively new hunter (less than ten years) I don't have any preconceived notions of correct management passed along to me from anyone so I am eager to learn from people who do this full time.

Also for what it worth I see lots of game when I hunt. Rare to spend a day where I don't see a least a doe.

We all learn from this stuff.

For hunters I believe the most important part is to refine their thinking and start asking why they're seeing what they're seeing if they're going to make value judgements about what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. You often find people flying off the deep end, as demonstrated in this thread, stating 'all the doe LEH killed them off' when there hasn't been a doe season for close to 20 years. Clearly they are trying to communicate an issue but they've incorrectly trapped the problem (more than likely they've started with the solution). Poor problem identification leads to poor decision making and solution implementation, which ironically is why southern BC has so many cumulative issues that haven't dealt with - seems to be a generational hangover from people who believe hunting is the problem and reducing it will create more wildlife. While that is true in some instances, for the overwhelming majority of issues we have hunting isn't the problem.

Often people want wildlife managed for their own interests, not wildlife, the broader hunting community or the public which is fine, but they often affront their argument with 'everyone I know' or 'there's no wildlife left'. People should really be saying "I want to see" and then at least you have something to work with and somewhere to go.

[Hunting guy]

Hey GG, I agree to disagree here, your not comprehending what Is being stated anyways. Also there is not a discussion (only argument) to be had with someone who is out of touch with the subject area so why bother. Here is an article about a bio..... what a waste of over 35% of the elk pop

http://www.dailytownsman.com/breaking_news/219435761.html?mobile=true

[GoatGuy]

So you didn't want to reduce the homesteader population? You wanted to continue to degrade your winter range in the trench? And increase competition for migratory, high elevation populations?

And now you're complaining about the GOS cow season in the trench is being closed?

I clearly don't understand. For the life of me I cannot fathom why someone would support loading the winter range up with elk that don't migrate - that makes no sense. That is like having a ranch put thousands of cows out on winter range ALL YEAR LONG.

The trench is in TERRIBLE SHAPE - it is probably the worst example of fire suppression and forest ingrowth in BC. The reason it's in terrible shape is because the generation of hunters who hunted for the last 30 years were too worried about the hunting regulations instead about being worried about the goose that laid the golden egg - that goose is habitat.

Nobody's who has a clue about habitat is surprised with long-term declines in elk, mule deer and sheep in the trench. There are a number of sheep populations that have literally disappeared and others that are just barely getting by because their habitat has literally disappeared over the last 30 years. All the while hunters are busy with 4 pts mule deer seasons and 6 pts bull elk season. Whether a guy shot a spike or a 6 pts doesn't really seem that important if their habitat is literally disappearing.

Need to get focused in on the big picture and start worrying about the future of wildlife in BC.

[Hunting guy]

I don't mind a few elk around the lower country, personally I think there is room for them, removing 35% of them has not significantly improved the winter range so where they really what was damaging it in the first pace? Competition between "homesteaders" and high elevation elk will ensure the strongest survive and not create an artificially enhanced elk herd. If you are so determined to hunt homesteaders why not due it in June, July, August? One large weather system at the higher elevations will drive elk low in September. The GOS closure refers to the way it was done as last minute as an emergency closure that was finally realized only days before the season opened.Then it was admitted that the original problem had not been solved, yet the population reduction mandate had been accomplished in record time and even had a celebratory ring to it. Those responsible should be fired if they don't have the decency to resign. (I do like the closure but my confidence is low in the wildlife managers based on the way it was handled)
And how about those ranchers with cows on the winter range all season?? That is what is happening, They must strike you as the most selfish habitat destroying people on the planet?
I would hope nobody is surprised that opening up either sex GOS is causing a decline in species populations, but then turning around and blaming it on poor habitat when in this case it has more to do with piss poor wildlife management is a transparent tactic.
What sheep herds specifically have disappeared? (I am not arguing this statement but I am curious to see if you actually know)
FYI your statements on anything in 4 might actually carry some weight if you had recently been to the area you claim to know so much about.

[GoatGuy]

If you can't tell the habitat in the trench is in terrible shape there's no point in discussing. If you don't know what the trench used to look like and is supposed to look like there's really no way for you to understand how wildlife populations interact with habitat quality and quantity. You probably don't know what deer/elk/sheep prefer and where they are most productive. That is all tied to habitat, and most of the trench is NDT 3 and 4. It should be getting burned regularly.

Your belief that fitness or survival is a function of migratory behaviour isn't consistent with science. The non-migratory component of the population is more than likely a function of anthropogenic changes.

The recommendation to close the season was sent to Victoria months ago (in the spring) where it was caught in the nebulous web of politics.

The objective was to reduce the homesteader elk population and that was achieved.


Overall most of the sheep populations (other than elk valley and a few smaller pops) experienced a big drop after the winter of 2011. I would say close to you (in Invermere) the two most important which have been choked out by habitat are the bunch that used to winter behind Windermere creek and the sheep that used to hang out on the front end of kindersley creek. Premier sheep aren't doing well either and that is entirely habitat related. But of course, you don't think habitat affects wildlife populations. I guess the decline in premier and dissapearance in windermere and the front end of kindersley must be because hunters were out shooting all of the ewes in the ewe season that doesn't exist and every time a ewe tries to repopulate those areas a hunter just comes by and strokes the thing.

All those trees that are in those spots thick as hair on a dog's back must be a figment of everyone's imagination as well.

[Hunting guy]

The goal was reached but a solution was not.
Szkorupa also noted that the reduction in the herd hasn't had the desired effect on the agricultural side.
"We were all hoping when we worked on the elk management plan that we would have the same amount of reduction in crop degradation as the population declined, but we haven't found that," she said. "So what we've been doing, we have a committee that we work with agricultural producers and hunters and various stakeholders, so based on that relationship, we're now trying to look at other options to try and reduce crop damage and crop degradation, while still maintaining healthy elk population."

Couldn't agree more with you on sheep, good thing we have a horn curl restriction in place to maintain as stable a population as the habitat will allow. I hope you don't think an open season on ewes would enhance the overall health of the herd. kidding

[E.V.B.H.]

My understanding of this issue was the agricultural aspect was just one of a couple goals with reducing the herd. Other goals were met. Reducing pressure on a disappearing winter range was achieved.

This is a long way from whitetails in region 8 though:)

[HarryToolips]

Sounds like habitat restoration is key. I belong to a local outdoor association (Peachland Sportsman's Club), would that help at all in pushin for habitat restoration around our area?? How can all of us push for habitat restoration in our local areas?? Is controlled burns the only form of restoration??

[E.V.B.H.]

There are also slashing projects, Fernie has done a few, but with funding, insurance,wcb, etc. they are unfortunately becoming harder and harder to organize.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sounds like habitat restoration is key. I belong to a local outdoor association (Peachland Sportsman's Club), would that help at all in pushin for habitat restoration around our area?? How can all of us push for habitat restoration in our local areas?? Is controlled burns the only form of restoration??

Habitat is the key for sure. Burns are great but also thinning and slashing can help as well as effective pruning. Our club(as well as other local groups) finally had some hands on work on Bald Range this summer. It was a small project but was certainly a step in the right direction. Many people on this site(not including myself) were involved in donating their time and efforts. Quite a few of those people have even posted in this thread. Even others helped put together successful prescribed burn proposals in the region(although they would never admit it on here).

SSS

[Hunting guy]

[QUOTE=

This is a long way from whitetails in region 8 though:)[/QUOTE]

Sorry, got a bit carried away there

[Iltasyuko]

Some really good reading in this thread - thanks for all the information, facts and opinions.

[Fish Hound]

So the 2013 harvest statistics are coming out........and the deer harvest #'s for 8-1, 8-12, 8-14, and 8-15 show.........what.........exactly what I talked about to start this post.........this is also what the "current" Biologists said in both Penticton and in Nelson late last season.........but your "trail cams don't lie" and "the whitetail are just in different places"........maybe the farmers, local hunters, store owners, and butchers don't know about government wildlife policies but they do see what is going on around them...........and they don't need a trail cam, or hunter days statistics, or idiot angry posters telling them what they don't know about........the urrent policies are suspect, the reporting system is also flawed............when will we start enacting policies that enhance ecosystem based management in rural areas......get with the real program ranters and stop defending a government that is bent on destroying anything that doesn't fill their coffers!


Got my 2 deer........including a 226lbs fully dressed and skinned alfalfa fed muly brute..........NOT a 70lbs whitetail doe who's fawn is still laying in the trees...........

[GoatGuy]

So the 2013 harvest statistics are coming out........and the deer harvest #'s for 8-1, 8-12, 8-14, and 8-15 show.........what.........exactly what I talked about to start this post.........this is also what the "current" Biologists said in both Penticton and in Nelson late last season.........but your "trail cams don't lie" and "the whitetail are just in different places"........maybe the farmers, local hunters, store owners, and butchers don't know about government wildlife policies but they do see what is going on around them...........and they don't need a trail cam, or hunter days statistics, or idiot angry posters telling them what they don't know about........the urrent policies are suspect, the reporting system is also flawed............when will we start enacting policies that enhance ecosystem based management in rural areas......get with the real program ranters and stop defending a government that is bent on destroying anything that doesn't fill their coffers!


Got my 2 deer........including a 226lbs fully dressed and skinned alfalfa fed muly brute..........NOT a 70lbs whitetail doe who's fawn is still laying in the trees...........

When did the antlerless GOS start?