just an update

[6.5x55]

spent 4 days last week in Logan lake area About a hunter every 10 minutes on all back roads . I could not believe the devastation that has occurred in the back country the logging companies have logged massive areas and in the name of good forest management have destroyed everything.It is literally like the surface of the moon there is no habitat there is no meadows they are stripping it all . they must be stopped they are criminals

[BiG Boar]

We were in there a couple weeks back. Lots of deer to be had for everyone. You must have just been unlucky I guess. Get out there guys! Shoot em from the road even!

[dougan]

Better find a new spot

[Weatherby Fan]

Probably just clearing some pine beetle dead forests........no worries tree's grow back !

[keithb7]

As soon as we quit using toilet paper, reading books and building houses, the mass devastation by the criminals will stop. Who's first to volunteer? You 6.5x55?

[Whonnock Boy]

It is all Pine beetle........

[Big Lew]

spent 4 days last week in Logan lake area About a hunter every 10 minutes on all back roads . I could not believe the devastation that has occurred in the back country the logging companies have logged massive areas and in the name of good forest management have destroyed everything.It is literally like the surface of the moon there is no habitat there is no meadows they are stripping it all . they must be stopped they are criminals

If you could have seen the area before most of the recent logging of effected pine beetle forest, maybe you'd understand why. I'm very surprised that the whole area didn't go up in smoke like the Aberdeen or Louis Creek-McLure fires. If you went up high and looked down in any direction, all you saw was brown forest, especially around the Tunkwa Lake bowl.

[LYKTOHUNT]

beetle kill salvage, what else can they do with it, those operations are everywhere

[M.Dean]

As soon as we quit using toilet paper, reading books and building houses, the mass devastation by the criminals will stop. Who's first to volunteer? You 6.5x55?This post pretty well sums it up! If not for logging or mining etc, we'd be walking from the main roads 15 or 20 miles into our favorite hunting areas! A friend of mine is logging up here, never have I seen that many decked log's in my life! They've literally striped the entire forest around Hyas and the Warren Lake area of tree's, mostly dead pine, which, when hit with lighting or from a campfire in the hot summer would have burnt everyone of us up here out! I've said this my whole life, if logging bothers you, don't go out of your way to look at it! I personally disagree with Bull Fighting, where the idiot with the red cape pokes holes into the bull until it bleeds to death!!! So, after seeing it once or twice years ago, I don't go out of my way to watch a Bull Fight! And, when you think about all the things we humans use that are made from wood, I think Toilet paper is what I like the best, you imagine whipping your butt with a rock or leaves from a poison Ivy plant??? Once we've logged the Earth of all the tree's, lets check out a few of the closest Planets!!!

[Brian011]

Trees grow back, in 10-20 yrs you won't be able to see 50 yrds through the cut blocks. There is no shortage of animals in that area either, they thrive in areas like that, sure lots get shot off the rd but it's no different than anywhere else.

[boxhitch]

Seeing it from the ground only gives a small picture , you should see it from the air !
Huge tracts cleared , not much for buffers or boundary strips , much of the coarse woody debris is gone with nothing to replace it .
There will never be enough seedlings for replanting such a large area .
Until it grows up in 10 years it doesn't offer home to many species , big or small.
Then when it does get to the 20 year mark , and is too dense to hunt , and there is no new logging anywhere , its good for critters but poor hunting still.
Not sure the 'plan' accounted for such rapid deforestation.

[brutus]

dead pines dont do much for critters but puts food on peoples tables,like lots of people i rely on lumber to make a living,when people start living in houses made out of mud the logging will stop untill then logging will go on

[takla1]

Seeing it from the ground only gives a small picture , you should see it from the air !
Huge tracts cleared , not much for buffers or boundary strips , much of the coarse woody debris is gone with nothing to replace it .
There will never be enough seedlings for replanting such a large area .
Until it grows up in 10 years it doesn't offer home to many species , big or small.
Then when it does get to the 20 year mark , and is too dense to hunt , and there is no new logging anywhere , its good for critters but poor hunting still.
Not sure the 'plan' accounted for such rapid deforestation.

I call bull on that,my father was a forester for the b.c gov and I grew up on a b.c forestry property in s. surrey 500 acreas.Trees for tomorrow was there moto and that farm produced seedlings for the province.I remember truck trips with my dad all thru the 60-70's hauling seedling{fir,cedar,hemlock]Trees all over from pemberton to fr st james and all points in between.Consider a fast growing species like pine,It can grow up to 2 ft per yr,dont take long to re-establish the forest.

[Big Lew]

Agree with "takla1". One of my brothers is a contract logger so I've seen a lot of it up close. They do it a lot differently now-a-days. They clean up the big leftover stuff, and then they rip and plow the soil before re-planting which gives the new seedlings a better chance for growth. It's amazing just how much has already been re-planted.

[davet]

i cant even imagine if a fire decided to start burning up the pine beetle trees. it would burn so fast many animals and even ppl would be in harms way. Hundreds, and thousands of years ago this did not matter there were no ppl there, well maybe natives. and now with all the clear cuts it would help with regenerating the forest. I have seen many areas that have been cleared of Pine beetle wood and no replanting was done. but only after a couple of years the trees have started to come back. It takes time the trees will come back and so will the animals

[boxhitch]

So , takla , where is the new stock going to come from ? Beetle wood has been logged at an accelerated rate to try and get the best value while its available , and the seed orchards in this area are the same as they have been for decades. Other areas may have stepped it up , but the timelines don't match. Sure , natural regen will happen , but not the same as planted stock.
Just saying it is going to be different in the future , but yeah it will come around.
Then consider how conventional logging is being carried out in marginal areas for planting, higher and steeper.
I'm not a 'pro' , but have talked to a couple that paint a poor picture.

[lovemywinchester]

I have spent a lot of time around Tunkwa/ logan Lake in the last few years hunting and hiking. I never saw the area before the kill but I hear it was amazing with huge beautiful pine forests. For those that have not been back in there in the bush hiking the dead fall is brutal. Any stand of timber you can see from the road is actually full of dead pine, standing and fallen. You know what is happening in those areas? New trees are growing like crazy. The sun is hammering down through and new growth is coming on strong. The woods will come back with out us replanting so what humans can replace will only help.

[butthead]

come on now I've seen more environmental damage done by a quad seriously

[Big Lew]

"but I hear it was amazing with huge beautiful pine forests."

It was utterly amazing, and a true wilderness when I first went in there the first time 53 years ago. There were very few roads, and those few were barely travel-able most of the time. The area was teaming with game of all kinds (except grizzlies) and a meca for geese, ducks, and grouse. There were large bands of wild horses, packs of wolves, and huge packs of coyotes.
I backpacked through the upper Guichon and Forge Creeks and a lot of the Mt Fehr area. I have home movies of me pulling a wild stallion out of a swamp by upper Guichon Creek 42 years ago. (It took me all morning to power saw and winch my 4x4 into him) It is really heartbreaking to see what's left of the area now. As far as I'm concerned, it's ruined forever, and will never be the same even if they completely closed it off to the public.

[lovemywinchester]

"but I hear it was amazing with huge beautiful pine forests."

It was utterly amazing, and a true wilderness when I first went in there the first time 53 years ago. There were very few roads, and those few were barely travel-able most of the time. The area was teaming with game of all kinds (except grizzlies) and a meca for geese, ducks, and grouse. There were large bands of wild horses, packs of wolves, and huge packs of coyotes.
I backpacked through the upper Guichon and Forge Creeks and a lot of the Mt Fehr area. I have home movies of me pulling a wild stallion out of a swamp by upper Guichon Creek 42 years ago. (It took me all morning to power saw and winch my 4x4 into him) It is really heartbreaking to see what's left of the area now. As far as I'm concerned, it's ruined forever, and will never be the same even if they completely closed it off to the public.

I imagine that could be said for most of BC Big Lew. Wish I was around back then to see it for myself. Was there many WT around LL back then?

[Big Lew]

I heard that there were some along the bush flats by Guichon Creek between Tunkwa and Mammit Lakes, but I never saw any until the last 16-17 years. When my youngest brother first worked on the former Morrison Ranch between Logan Lake and the freeway about 16 years ago, there were many on, and around the ranch.

[keithb7]

Maybe this is a good thread to educate the hunting public about BC logging practices. Maybe not, but let's see what develops. Logging is a very sustainable renewable resource in BC. The BC forests are managed by educated professionals. We may not all agree with all their practices and decisions but they are better suited, in most cases then most of us are are, to make an informed educated decision. Loggers are simply contractors that are hired by the mills in BC to harvest the wood and transport it to the mill. Mills are large companies who buy timber licenses from the BC govt, that give them cutting rights to the timber. The BC govt generates revenue by selling the timber licenses, and also charging stumpage fees (taxes) on trees that are logged. BC's trees are all of ours, and are managed from a higher level, by our elected govt. Where I am going here, is asking folks to stop pounding on the loggers. They are not out there raping and pillaging BC 's forests. The BC govt is. Our BC govt is making use our our natural resources as best they see fit. The BC Ministry of Forests comes up with all the rules, laws, best practices and guidelines for BC loggers. They have inspectors who make sure BC loggers are logging within those guidelines. They are not out there ripping up the place and leaving a mess. They are logging BC the way they are supposed to. A few years ago in Revelstoke a contractor started logging, as he was instructed to by his boss, the miill, an area where there were a ton of un-sanctioned mountain bike trails. The mountain bikers got upset and there was some protesting and complaining to the logger. They were barking up the wrong tree. What is the logger doing wrong?

So after the logger is done, a big scar is left and looks like moonscape right? Terrible stuff right? No. All the left over waste is there for a reason to enhance regrowth. A machine comes in later to prepare the site for tree planters to properly space and plant the next generation of timber. Those stumps and wood waste break down and provide natural fertilization for new trees to grow. They hold the ground together and prevent slides and muddy slop when the snow melts. All helping new trees grow, as fast as possible.

BC can be a have, or have not province. We can become more park like, and stop mining, logging, hydro and gas projects in BC. The problem is parks don't generate many jobs which generate tax dollars. Tax dollars bring social programs, health care, roads, airports, buses, sky train, BC ferries, and more. All things we all scream bloody murder about when they make budget cuts. So take all this away. The hunting would be great! The beauty incredible. We'd just all have to live elsewhere, and come here to hunt. Fly in only of course as there would be not enough tax dollars to maintain all the back roads. No quads, no trucks, just hiking, and be dropped off by helicopter. Only the rich could afford to go so we'd all want those high paying jobs in Ft Mac. But aren't we trying to shut that dirty mess down too? Look, there is a balance here. We all love it here and we want good paying jobs. We want to stay here. We don't want BC to become a park, yet we do want conservation.
I'll get off my soapbox now and please, stop blaming the loggers.

[junkyard_g]

well put keith, a lot of misunderstanding on the part of the general public out there. Two clarification for other posters: Legally all licensees have to reforest areas that they log within very specific time frames with very specific definitions constitutes an adequately reforested stand. Also, The massive size of these cutblocks is only allowed to occur as an exemption for the salvaging of the beetle killed wood.

[BearStump]

just watched a really good episode of "canada in the rough" I think it was actually a re-run but a first for me. Where the beasly bros. were teamed up with a bc bio from the MOE and a rep from the sustainable forest something something. They were on a heli trip to dart and radio collar roosevelt elk on VI. The episode explained alot and was quite informative as to the many sustainable forest practices that are being done today by logging companies.
To the OP, you should really spend a little time looking this stuff up onlne, its quite eye opening, and will explain alot to you that you probably did not know before.

[junkyard_g]

People views are understandable though. You drive into a valley that was all green pine 10yrs ago and you go out there now it it is all a series of very large cutblocks now its not hard to jump to the conclusion that there is a free for all for the logging companies and the government is apathetic. Even heard a piece on cbc radio where they were talking about the amount of NSR (not satisfactorily restocked) area in bc is larger than ever but they did a piss poor job of related to viewers where those numbers were coming from. Basically it was from beetle killed areas (not logged) and fire damaged areas. To the casual listener it would have sounded like areas were being logged and not replanted.

[Avalanche123]

Pine does very well without planting....their cones fall from the trees either natural or through logging. Warm summer temps or a fire cause the cones to open and the seed falls out....birds, wind, insects carry the seed all over the place. It can result in a homogenous stand (pure pine) which just brings back the same problem with epidemic years down the road.

Logging just accelerates what Ma Nature would do with a large fire except the economy benefits from it. Do nothing and there will be a big fire at some point which creates havoc on its own scale.

Give a couple of years.....the animals will move back in with all the fresh re-growth.

[Glenny]

Yes pine beetle salvage but also took out giant swathes of fir then took the roads out.

[gutpile]

What bothers me is the never ending of sup-divisions built outside of the city core.
Where will it ever end ? Thoughs places will never be return to the wild.

[Big Lew]

Yes pine beetle salvage but also took out giant swathes of fir then took the roads out.

Are you sure about the 'giant swathes of fir'? I was of the understanding that the gov't put a moratorium on new timber leases in the effected areas of anything but pine until the beetle situation was taken care of. Private properties such as Douglas Lake Ranch are exempt. They are cutting fir now.

[junkyard_g]

Not quite true. There are incentives as well as some agreements to target the pine first. but mills need some green in their profile to meet their needs and customer demand. I'd say most licensees are harvesting around 65-70% beetle affected pine (guess based on my experience) in mpb affected zones. Either way it in is the companies best interest to target pine first like lower stumpage and leaving interim timber supply while the mpb logged stands are regenerating. Big Lew, I wouldn't doubt if what u were talking about was something like BC Timber Sales (gov't) only giving out timber sales that were pine leading or something like that. Not my area of expertise though, i just know we target dead pine the majority of the time but do harvest some spruce/balsam leading stands, mostly to meet the mills demand larger piece size wood.

[Glenny]

Are you sure about the 'giant swathes of fir'? I was of the understanding that the gov't put a moratorium on new timber leases in the effected areas of anything but pine until the beetle situation was taken care of. Private properties such as Douglas Lake Ranch are exempt. They are cutting fir now.

I'd say 99% percent sure. Saw it first hand. No cedar there. Dunno what else they could take out of there.

[Dannybuoy]

Are you sure about the 'giant swathes of fir'? I was of the understanding that the gov't put a moratorium on new timber leases in the effected areas of anything but pine until the beetle situation was taken care of. Private properties such as Douglas Lake Ranch are exempt. They are cutting fir now.
example being the mill here cuts aprox 25-30 % pine been that way for as long as I can remember (20+ years ).