Bad wildlife management on the part of our gov.

[masoncade1992]

I have started this thread to get everyone's opinion on our relatively "new" biologist for the EK and WK area. Also, I would like you opinion on the bad mngt of our wildlife here. I'm gonna start by saying what areas I think were majorly screwed up by our province.

1. North of Revelstoke, gold stream, French creek and area. Used to be they let out a few LEH. You used to look forward to getting an LEh, bcz if you did, you had 99% harvest rate for bull and cow moose. this is not a joke, ten years ago, my moose hunt with my dad took maybe 1-2 hours at most. in a morning you would see at least 9-10 moose. we would wait till we saw one on the road , that's how many moose there was.

Now, our beloved gov choose to open TONS of LEH in the past 5 years to combat the wolf problem and without moose they thought the caribou would have less wolf pressure. This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! what is the wolf gonna eat when the moose are gone????

Now you go up French creek and you would be lucky to see some old moose shit let alone a track!


2. wk open season on point. BAD IDEA. again I looked forward to when I Got an leh in wk. lots of bulls, and when you got one it was big. WK has huge 6 pts.

Now, because its GOS, very hard hunting in wk.


EK GOS on COW. STUPID STUPID. LEH used to be, you would get your cow first day, something to look forward to when you got drawn, now because the cow pop is so down, hard hunting for 6point in ek?? now cows = no 6 pts

Who makes all these stupid ideas for the EK and WK??? My kids will never get the hunting opportunity I got as a young lad.

[ellellbee]

Have to agree with your first example. Same issue here. The strategy seems to be do this instead of something meaningful i.e. wolf cull because it's easier as opposed to being correct.

[Everett]

Well personally I thing the New Biologist is a ray of sunshine compared to the screwballs we had before. Of course Guide Outfitters and Trophy hunters don't like the new management but your average meat hunter loves the new management. Meat hunters make up %90 of the hunters in BC by the way.

Oh and your kids will actually get to hunt now instead of waiting till there 40 to draw a LEH tag.

[Sitkaspruce]

Here we go again........

Sigh...........

Cheers

SS

[masoncade1992]

Cull the wolfs-only way to fix the problem.

I am a meet hunter and open season means less meat. Leh for bull moose and cow elk means that your sons is almost 100 percent gonna harvest, in gos u chance drops off. I am 21 and have taken 5 big bulls out of french creek I got pulled every 3 years. Now if your son goes to kamloops, his chance of getting a spike moose is close to 0. If he got pulled in rev,chance to get bull or cow now very close to 0.

[Sitkaspruce]

It is not about killing game, it is about hunting and enjoying the outdoos, getting an animal is a bonus. You sound like all you want is to kill an animal when every you head out.

LEH sucks and I will fight LEH any time over GOS, unless there is a true conservation concern. Wait to you move up here and have to deal with the 2/3/10 rule for moose, better than LEH, but it is another restriction on hunting. But at least you can hunt evey year, which you would not be able to do if on LEH.

Go hunt and enjoy what hunting is all about and stop worring about whether you will kill anything.....that a bonus

Cheers

SS

[happyhunter]

Those high concentrations of wildlife would/could not be sustainable. If you thought it was easy for you to find game just think how easy it was for the wolves who spend 24/7 living out there and hunting 365 days a year. Easy for populations to explode and put us in the place we are now. Right now I would like to see the preds drop off and game go back up, but not too the point where they are over carrying capacity.

[masoncade1992]

We need better wildlife mngt. There is no doubt opening cow elk gos was bad idea, it will not be gos next year, it will be leh. Elk pop as per the CO I spoke to was cut by 45percent since gos for cow.

As hunters we need to ensuring that wildlife is sustainable for years to come.

[Whonnock Boy]

I am 21 and have taken 5 big bulls out of french creek I got pulled every 3 years.

How does this math work?


We need better wildlife mngt. There is no doubt opening cow elk gos was bad idea, it will not be gos next year, it will be leh. Elk pop as per the CO I spoke to was cut by 45percent since gos for cow.

As hunters we need to ensuring that wildlife is sustainable for years to come.

I think, now don't quote me but, the elk population was running at about 90 percent carrying capacity when they opened the GOS, maybe higher. They are now running more in line with a sustainable amount. It is not about harvest rates, it IS about sustainability.

[masoncade1992]

Ok, some year I got pulled every year, never waiting longer than 3. Sometimes I would help my dad get his moose, between him and my mother and my other brother, we had a moose draw everyyear almost. I got my core at age 9 I do believe.

Why do you think they closed cow gos right before hunting season? When it was planned for the two years of regs? Co said they flew over and were way below the numbers they wanted to see, said elk pop dropped huge and he est its around 45 percent. Hence gos closure. I hiked all through ek this year in fort steele area, I saw maybe 15 cows in 1 week of hiking all day everyday, I just bought atv last week.

[6point]

The moose season north of revelstoke I will agree with was a total joke! used to be a very healthy herd of moose from revelstoke to mica, now the moose population is about 10% of what it used to be. Ive spent almost every day of my life for quite a few years up there and i must say now shes pretty tough to find one! the downie, goldstream, bigmouth..used to hold hundreds of moose...now the only place you will find them is in the very back ends and even at that its only a couple animals.

[Whonnock Boy]

It is my understanding that the GOS did what it was meant to do. The influx of wolves may have tipped them over the edge. That issue has been discussed here at length. The printing of regs every second year is a money saving issue, it's not gospel. Things change......

[wsm]

I don't know the specifics of every area but do agree that our wildlife management needs our attn. Our present moose problem was brought up a few years ago , that means our managers and govt knew a few years ago and made zero changes. WTF .. BCWF knew and did zero . only in the last year are we hearing about the moose prob that we knew was having problems . so let me ask my fellow hunters a question ? had we started to get on top of the problems that are causing our moose decline 2-3 years ago would we be better off now ???. the guy starting this thread is right on . don't kid yourself MONEY controls our seasons , and the govt is afraid to lose that money

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not sure where to begin on this one........:?

SSS

[coach]

This stuff comes up every year. Want to make a difference? Join your local club. Join the BCWF. Attend meetings. Educate yourself on all aspects of the issue. Try to understand the logic behind the management decisions. Go ahead - ask your questions - but do it directly to those in the know. Ranting on an online forum accomplishes nothing.

My understanding is that reduction in elk numbers in the trench met with management goals to ensure there will be sufficient groceries on the winter range for migrating elk populations. Previously the resident elk were eating everything year round. For the sustainability of the entire herd a GOS was opened on cows. Goals have been met and the season has been closed.

The area north of revelstoke is definitely a concern. Poor habitat and an abundance of predators has knocked moose populations right down. I've never understood the concept of reducing moose populations to save caribou, but I'll do my best to talk with those who are knowledgable so that I can properly form an opinion.

Its easy to to sit back, point fingers and do nothing. Making a difference takes commitment.

[aggiehunter]

I'm afraid you mistaken wildlife management for people management...farmers with problems in the EK...people with rare flowers in the Okanagan....people who just want a chance to walk around and maybe get and Elk instead of a quality LEH hunt...WK ELK....culling blacktails for carrots....Island....and the list goes on...it's all about the people..

[boxhitch]

Here's some questions for you guys that seem to have the answers and say management is crappy, facts not fiction if you will.
How many moose were in the Revy area 10 years ago and how many are there now ?
What is the success rate for the LEH hunt ?
Whats the overall harvest number compared to 10 years ago ?
Is the increase bull harvest to blame for the herd reduction ? Are the cows not being bred ?

[coach]

Here's some questions for you guys that seem to have the answers and say management is crappy, facts not fiction if you will.
How many moose were in the Revy area 10 years ago and how many are there now ?
What is the success rate for the LEH hunt ?
Whats the overall harvest number compared to 10 years ago ?
Is the increase bull harvest to blame for the herd reduction ? Are the cows not being bred ?

Those numbers would be very useful to have. I'm sure someone out there has them.

[wsm]

Here's some questions for you guys that seem to have the answers and say management is crappy, facts not fiction if you will.
How many moose were in the Revy area 10 years ago and how many are there now ?
What is the success rate for the LEH hunt ?
Whats the overall harvest number compared to 10 years ago ?
Is the increase bull harvest to blame for the herd reduction ? Are the cows not being bred ?

fact 50 % + of our province , the moose population is in serious - bad shape
fact wildlife managers and BCWF knew about this trend 3 years ago
fact only recently have wildlife managers tried to address the problem
so the question is, does the revy area fall into that part of the province that the moose population has had huge declines ?
and if so then why are they being hunted before the population recovery has started?
# would be nice to have , unskewed # that is

[afflicted 1]

Wolves are a big problem, but also management. There should be absolutely no cow or calf moose draws in this province right now, if there is such an abundance in an area effort should be made to relocate some of these to needful areas. But this might actually cost the gov money and help the species with the long road to recovery in some areas, but we can't have that cuz our wildlife is about income and not animals. There is numerous areas through out bc that elk would take off like a wildfire if transplanted and mitigate the pressure on traditional areas like the west or east koot and peace. Can't do that either that would take to long for the gov to recover their money and might be good for residents. The wolf problem is bs and its going to come down to residents taking matters into their own hands however the choose to. These are just my opinions and I just had to vent ahhh.

[masoncade1992]

Ok so I have been doing some thinking on the issues, since I started this thread all of you have valid points.

This is further to my original opinion.

I think there is a lot behind the scenes we don't see. I have a theory.

ICBC is owned by the gov right? So one of the issues in rev when the moose pop was high, was animals getting hit by logging trucks. damaged logging truck makes ICBC loose money. ICBC then prob goes to MOE and complains. this puts pressure to shoot more moose. they use the excuse of caribou but really its all about money. its easy to get rid of wolves, you just have to poison them. but guess what, the tree huggin people would flip. hunters need a voice over these individuals.

They say they opened GOS on cow elk bcz not enough food for the winter elk, I call BS. if elk don't have enough food they move on and I have never seen a skinny elk in the EK or WK.... the truth is, elk get hit, it costs money. how do they lower the mount hit, they cull them.

our LEH system is crap, some people get pulled all the time some don't. hence why ppl want GOS. we need a system much like Alberta, when you get pulled your priority lowers.

When you have a GOS on cow elk, you have no way to control how many are shot. if cow elk were getting out of control, just open slightly more cow elk. this Will SLIGHTLY lower the population, not eliminate it.

[ElectricDyck]

I understand that killing males will not affect the overall population. I think a lot of people just can't seem to accept this fact.

[coach]

I think there is a lot behind the scenes we don't see. I have a theory.

ICBC is owned by the gov right? So one of the issues in rev when the moose pop was high, was animals getting hit by logging trucks. damaged logging truck makes ICBC loose money. ICBC then prob goes to MOE and complains. this puts pressure to shoot more moose. they use the excuse of caribou but really its all about money.


Oh.. Sorry... I thought this was meant to be a serious discussion. My bad..:confused:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The revy area has had high wolf #'s for some time now....probably longer than most other areas in the southern half of the province. High moose pop was most likely the cause of this increase. Now the issue has spread everywhere.

Take a look a little to the north in the Blue River area. Dana quoted the decrease in the moose pop in 3 MU's. Can't find the quote right now but it was somewhere in the nieghbourhood of 400 moose down to well below 100. You can't blame our bios for this decrease.

It's our elected officials who make decisions regarding wolf culls...not the bios.
Write some letters.

SSS

[Geo.338]

I'd be pi$$ed if my moose hunt was over in 1 1\2 to 2 hrs . Took me 16 days to get my bull moose . Now that is bang for my buck !

[GoatGuy]

Here's some questions for you guys that seem to have the answers and say management is crappy, facts not fiction if you will.


How many moose were in the Revy area 10 years ago and how many are there now ?

Peak was ~1,600, currently below 400 (400 was the management goal).


What is the success rate for the LEH hunt ?
Probably 20%, would have to check.


Whats the overall harvest number compared to 10 years ago ?

Less than 1/4, very few tags due to population targets being achieved.


Is the increase bull harvest to blame for the herd reduction ?
No, cow harvest combined with high rates of predation due to exploding wolf populations. A couple of the wolves starved, others migrated to North Okanagan, a few packs still in the area.


Are the cows not being bred ?
They are being bred.


The goal in that area was to reduce predation on caribou. Predator management combined with moose reduction was the suggestions but predator management was turned down, because there were and still are not enough 'conservationists' and hunters getting involved and writing their MLAs. Predator management on the science side of things is straightforward, not so on the political side.

Unfortunately, hunters need to talk, write and email their MLAs instead of complaining after the fact on the internet. Most of the posts are so poorly informed they're completely incorrect.

If anyone wants to do some learning on the issue here's a video (don't even have to read). Rob's a great guy, just defended his doctoral thesis last spring and is now working for UoA. He has supported and reccomended predator reduction but government was unwilling to support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oFXecDkXoU

[GoatGuy]

Ok so I have been doing some thinking on the issues, since I started this thread all of you have valid points.

This is further to my original opinion.

I think there is a lot behind the scenes we don't see. I have a theory.

ICBC is owned by the gov right? So one of the issues in rev when the moose pop was high, was animals getting hit by logging trucks. damaged logging truck makes ICBC loose money. ICBC then prob goes to MOE and complains. this puts pressure to shoot more moose. they use the excuse of caribou but really its all about money. its easy to get rid of wolves, you just have to poison them. but guess what, the tree huggin people would flip. hunters need a voice over these individuals.

They say they opened GOS on cow elk bcz not enough food for the winter elk, I call BS. if elk don't have enough food they move on and I have never seen a skinny elk in the EK or WK.... the truth is, elk get hit, it costs money. how do they lower the mount hit, they cull them.

our LEH system is crap, some people get pulled all the time some don't. hence why ppl want GOS. we need a system much like Alberta, when you get pulled your priority lowers.

When you have a GOS on cow elk, you have no way to control how many are shot. if cow elk were getting out of control, just open slightly more cow elk. this Will SLIGHTLY lower the population, not eliminate it.

May want to use the search function or a google search to deal with some of these issues. Alternatively you could contact grizz59 on here, he is from Revelstoke and was involved in the Caribou/Moose issue and is also knowledgeable on quite a bit of the wildlife management side.

Lastly, don't listen to the CO - sounds like you're getting pumped full of BS.

[GoatGuy]

I don't know the specifics of every area but do agree that our wildlife management needs our attn. Our present moose problem was brought up a few years ago , that means our managers and govt knew a few years ago and made zero changes. WTF .. BCWF knew and did zero . only in the last year are we hearing about the moose prob that we knew was having problems . so let me ask my fellow hunters a question ? had we started to get on top of the problems that are causing our moose decline 2-3 years ago would we be better off now ???. the guy starting this thread is right on . don't kid yourself MONEY controls our seasons , and the govt is afraid to lose that money

There will be an announcement in the next couple weeks on moose. The wheels turn slowly. Unfortunately we'll study them to find out they are being eaten by wolves. The predator management issue will be the end result and if hunters talk to themselves instead of their MLAs we will end up with moose in areas going the same way the mountain caribou have.

Suggest you get involved if you are passionate. Need people who are willing to contribute.

[rocksteady]

Goatguy, you seem to have a plethora of stats and numbers...

How has the wolf harvest numbers changed in region 4 in the last 5 years. Everyone blames the wolves, but I have been told harvest numbers have not increased (trappers and Hunters)..

Blaming wolves without having the statistical data to support it, is more of an excuse than a reason...

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy, you seem to have a plethora of stats and numbers...

How has the wolf harvest numbers changed in region 4 in the last 5 years. Everyone blames the wolves, but I have been told harvest numbers have not increased (trappers and Hunters)..

Blaming wolves without having the statistical data to support it, is more of an excuse than a reason...

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/public-consultation/grey-wolf/docs/PublicConsultation-WolfManagementPlan.pdf


Think it starts p 18.

[GoatGuy]

Region 4 resident wolf harvest
2000-2011
Resident Non-resident
6 7
31 6
43 4
20 3
14 4
40 4
34 5
18 10
11 1
86 7
45 11
64 6

[WKCotts]

Region 4 resident wolf harvest
2000-2011
Resident Non-resident
6 7
31 6
43 4
20 3
14 4
40 4
34 5
18 10
11 1
86 7
45 11
64 6

do you have access to a wk/EK breakdown? Maybe even mu?

[Jelvis]

I'm standing up for our government and saying, it's not an easy job to manage fish and wildlife and the governemt can't perform miracles.
Weather, landslides, deep deep snow one year and none the next.
Desease amoung animals, no rain, too much rain, exreme heat and cold.
Winter range capabilities changing over time, sustainabilty issues Mothe Nature decided to mess with. Goals set for management and the money and time just isn't there to spend at the time.
Jel .. I wood not blame government because they are human like all of us folks.

[rocksteady]

Thanks Goat Guy... Knew you would know where to find the #'s

[GoatGuy]

do you have access to a wk/EK breakdown? Maybe even mu?

Can provide, but for wolves at that scale it probably won't be reliable. For CI species and things like deer, elk, moose the numbers are good, but due to sampling effort I wouldn't expect it to be for wolves. Would have to look at the back end.

What MU?

[GoatGuy]

I'm standing up for our government and saying, it's not an easy job to manage fish and wildlife and the governemt can't perform miracles.
Weather, landslides, deep deep snow one year and none the next.
Desease amoung animals, no rain, too much rain, exreme heat and cold.
Winter range capabilities changing over time, sustainabilty issues Mothe Nature decided to mess with. Goals set for management and the money and time just isn't there to spend at the time.
Jel .. I wood not blame government because they are human like all of us folks.

The people to blame are hunters. Politicians make decisions that work for politicians and there aren't enough hunters in touch with their MLAs to make them think or care about wildlife populations enough to do anything.

[HarryToolips]

Since they opened the limit to 2 WT doe taken, an area in the WK where I've gone to the last 4 years has gotten continually worse for WT..I know WT can take lots of hunting pressure but I guess when people aren't gettin their 6 pt bull elk they're baggin a WT and not only myself but everybody else including the locals I've talked to have noticed the big time reduction..

[WKCotts]

Can provide, but for wolves at that scale it probably won't be reliable. For CI species and things like deer, elk, moose the numbers are good, but due to sampling effort I wouldn't expect it to be for wolves. Would have to look at the back end.

What MU?

8, 16, 17. Would love to see the MD numbers as well. Thanx again

[dana]

Harry,
That reduction means the seasons are working the way they are intended to. Choose your poison. Do you want high whitetail numbers or do you want to see muleys make a comeback? You can't have both.

[E.V.B.H.]

Ok so I have been doing some thinking on the issues, since I started this thread all of you have valid points.

This is further to my original opinion.

I think there is a lot behind the scenes we don't see. I have a theory.

ICBC is owned by the gov right? So one of the issues in rev when the moose pop was high, was animals getting hit by logging trucks. damaged logging truck makes ICBC loose money. ICBC then prob goes to MOE and complains. this puts pressure to shoot more moose. they use the excuse of caribou but really its all about money. its easy to get rid of wolves, you just have to poison them. but guess what, the tree huggin people would flip. hunters need a voice over these individuals.

They say they opened GOS on cow elk bcz not enough food for the winter elk, I call BS. if elk don't have enough food they move on and I have never seen a skinny elk in the EK or WK.... the truth is, elk get hit, it costs money. how do they lower the mount hit, they cull them.

our LEH system is crap, some people get pulled all the time some don't. hence why ppl want GOS. we need a system much like Alberta, when you get pulled your priority lowers.

When you have a GOS on cow elk, you have no way to control how many are shot. if cow elk were getting out of control, just open slightly more cow elk. this Will SLIGHTLY lower the population, not eliminate it.


Just curious, have you ever been to a cow zone? You know it was in limited areas right, not everywhere. How does a hungry elk move out of winter range, in the winter to find more food?

[6point]

Those numbers would be very useful to have. I'm sure someone out there has them.
I can tell you exactly what happens with the revelstoke moose... For as long as I can remember there has always been a very healthy population of moose north of revelstoke...I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of moose! Then a couple years back they increased the leh numbers hugely like I'm talking probley 150 moose or more a year..bulls...cows...calfs... They let out a shit ton of permits to try and kill off the moose to save the caribou for I think it was 3 years in a row! After that there wasn't hardly a moose to be found! All the loggers who work up there will tell u this. This area ha always had lots of wolves and they have never impacted the moose in the 25 years that I've saw! The area is great habitat for moose and the "habitat loss" excuse is simply not true...example...the miles and miles and miles of swamp Land and thick forests in the goldstream, downie and bigmouth! The missing moose north of revelstoke is from 3 years of over hunting plain and simple wolves have been there for years with little impact!

[Iltasyuko]

Thanks for posting that YouTube link GoatGuy.

[aggiehunter]

HarryToolips..Listen to Dana he's right...it's poison to extirpate one species thinking another will magically re-appear in astounding numbers.

[coach]

Very interesting video, GG. Thanks for that. Interesting to note that moose numbers in that area were around 200 in 1984 and peaked at 1600 a few years ago - before being reduced to the current level around 400.

[Grizz59]

Just some facts on the Revelstoke issues that have been brought up here in this thread. At the time when the bull leh changed i was president of our local club. We had just finished a flight survey on moose here and the numbers were found to be very high.If I remember they were around 1650 +/_ 200 and our bull to cow ratio was around 70 bulls per 100 cows. I believe we were told that was the highest ratio in north america. With the numbers we had our wildlife committee came up with the new MU's(split 438-439 into 3 sub units each)and asked for a increase in bull tags and an increase in wolf harvest as the prevailing wisdom from the people who spent time up the bend all said wolf numbers were high.We got our moose tags but got no support from anyone on wolves including Rob back then. A few years later the Govt. with support from caribou people not the local club started to issue aprox. 60 cow draws per side for at least three years in a row.With those cow tags and the wolf predation the moose population drastically fell to the Govt's. moose population goal of around 400 to 500 animals.That goal was decided to be the best for the caribou.Just so know one has any doubts about why the Govt. choose this strategy, it was all about caribou.After the original Bull draw mentioned earlier was implemented our club was never consulted again on any stratigies for up the bend.To clear up some comments i have read, moose habitat up the bend is incredible,wolf numbers were not always high up the bend and shooting males of a sepcies is not the reason populations crash. I would also like to give a few of my own opions.Elk, opening the six point season in the WK was something i have supported for years. More hunting opportunities were they can be supported are the only way we are going to keep hunter numbers strong.Goatguy can probabily speak to this better than i can but the increase in LEH hunting and decrease in GOS hunting in the late 80's thru the 90's had a devestating effect on hunter numbers. The best comment on here by far is get involved at the club level and with your local politcians if you want to see things change,disscussons here are ok but accomplish nothing.

[coach]

Great post, Grizz59.

[Hunting guy]

Why is hunter recruitment so dependant on killing the easiest animals available?? (Cows, calfs, does, fawns, young bucks and young bulls) And where will the new recruits be in 5 years when those animals are scarce and become considered a "hard hunt" ? 4 seasons ago in the EK any hunter could purchase a tag for elk or deer and stand a reasonable chance of harvesting an animal within that species while having an exciting hunting trip..... Granted you would have to display patience, a bit of hard work, the ability to count all the way up to 4 or 6 before pulling the trigger, also a basic understanding of the animal you where hunting so that a harvest would be possible. That sounds a lot more like "Hunting" to me. Was it so hard to hunt a whitetail buck that regulation change was needed so that new recruits could get their doe????? Did you hunt the Gos elk last season in the WK????? Seemed a bit slow to me, better open up cows and calfs next year to keep up fickle hunters intrest

[gcreek]

I'm repeating myself here but it bears repeating as the wildlife managers seem to keep doing the same things expecting change and hunters seem to demand the decisions.

I have no idea what our moose population would be today had Carrier Lumber not moved to the Anahim Lake area in 1987.

Local stakeholders, (guides, trappers, ranchers, natives and other int. people) were promised by MOE and MOF that the logging roads would NEVER be available to anyone other than industry use before the company moved in.
The first 3 years were a complete slaughter during the then GOS open from Sept 10 to Nov 30. The GOS also included a week long cow season. When concern of numbers grew the MOE did put about 50 cows on LEH for a year or two before closing them completely and putting bulls on LEH.

I asked a bio once why they hadn't kept their promise as to no hunting on these roads. His reply and justification was " Horsefly and Likely are shot out. Hunters need somewhere to go." Now they have done the same in the south Chilcotin. Wonder what they will open up next?

Funny how the entitlement factor of new roads crops up until an area is shot out and then fingers start pointing.

[masoncade1992]

HuntingGuy_ i completly agree with you. Not only that but more cows in the ek also equals more bulls. when you cut the cows out, you majorly cut the future bull pop. Like you said, put in a little work, and a six pt aint out of the pic for most people. instead of opening cows, they should have opened 3 pt elk.

Grizz 59- fellow local like my self. correct me if im wrong, you taught and still instruct the core ? I believe years ago i took my core with you. I agree that a portion of wk should be GOS for 6 point, but not the Revelstoke area. Very few elk around rev before they opened it GOS. LEH in rev gave people a good chance to bag a LARGE trophy 6 pt.

Also, back in the 1980, the moose pop was around 200, was this because they had an open season back then?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

A quick fix would be turn in a fresh wolf skull and then you can get a moose tag or and elk tag. Without one you hungery

I see a lot of complaining yet how many of you on here actually hunt wolves. With poison outlawed, hunters and trappers need to help balance the preditor prey situation.

[coach]

Also, back in the 1980, the moose pop was around 200, was this because they had an open season back then?

Lake tevelstoke was created in 1984. Additional logging opened up habitat for moose and the population exploded. Watch the video posted by GG earlier in this thread. Very educational.

[Grizz59]

masoncade 1992, you have me mixed up with someone else as i have never taught core. I believe there are more than enough elk around Revelstoke to support the six point season. When it was LEH I don't think our trophy banquet ever seen a bull score over 310 more than once or twice. When it was LEH the odds for the two units around here were so high (75-1 and 100-1) that you would be lucky to get it at all in your lifetime.As far as your question on moose in early 80's, lower populations were due to lack of habitat. Thru the 80's logging really took off up the bend on both sides of the lake and as coach mentioned moose and deer populations took off.When i first came to Revelstoke in 1980 there was not even a deer season up the bend. By the late 80's a season was opened and we had great deer hunting up the bend until the crash of 97, thanks to all the habitat from logging.

[Hunting guy]

I find it interesting how many hunters love to claim to be conservationist however only until that affects their ability to fill a tag in 2 hours from a vehicle.

The best balance isn't the highest number of ungulates pyhsically possible. Its not healthy and its not beneficial long term.


Does the balance lie in a 60% reduction over 3 years??? Also it wouldn't take a full 2 hours to fill a doe tag or a late season cow elk tag so that's not really the argument here.

[Husky7mm]

Wildlife management is a tough row to hoe, but there is usually method to the madness.....???? That being said, with the wolf explosion the big push for "hunter opportunity" could not have come at a worse time..... "hunter opportunity " will cost many their opportunity.

[Hunting guy]

Alberta uses helicopters to control the wolf problem, not a removal of prey like here in BC. I would like to give the helicopter approach a try. Would be a lot more specific.

[Sofa King]

I find it interesting how many hunters love to claim to be conservationist however only until that affects their ability to fill a tag in 2 hours from a vehicle.

The best balance isn't the highest number of ungulates pyhsically possible. Its not healthy and its not beneficial long term.

agree.
so many guys act like they are so concerned about the animal populations, but all they really care about is that they can successfully kill something whenever they go out.

[Sofa King]

Alberta uses helicopters to control the wolf problem, not a removal of prey like here in BC. I would like to give the helicopter approach a try. Would be a lot more specific.

it's a lot easier to do that when your land is flat.

[curt]

Unfortunately our Biologists got their education in cereal boxes, I argued this stradegy for the past few yrs they tried the same type of thing around bear Lake "lets kill off the moose so the wolves will leave then we can re introduce caribou!!!!!!!!!!!" WTF is that !?!?!?!?whomever came up with that ridiculus idea should be fired! Predators will feed on whatever is around and even if they migrated out they would be back very shortly after they realized Caribou are the AREA! stupidest F ING thing I seen yet!!!! The real issue is public perception on culls!! We need to cull the wolf infestation thats the reality but the public out cry would be huge, and the government doesnt want to taint any votes!!! No matter what logic they try and justify I will not accept their reasoning the problem is predators, we have had some good yrs with plentiful game so predators are up so we either let nature take it course and let the predators wipe out the herds then die off of starvation. We should get involved like we always have and sort it out only because once you have messed with nature if you dont keep your fingers in the cookie jar the balance will go way out of wack. Hunting generates a lot of revenue for the government I would have thought they would want us out there spending our cash on BS fees tags and Rigged LEH draws!!!:)

[Hunting guy]

it's a lot easier to do that when your land is flat.

Acctually it is done around Grand cache and Hinton a lot. It is done in the winter when wolves use the frozen rivers as pathways. They kill some moose and elk to use as bait piles to attract the wolves then they live trap the alpha and radio collar it to lead them to rest of the pack to be exterminated. Flat land or mountains they cant hide from GPS. From what I understand here in BC we have an act that states the government will not interfere with one species to save another when they are both native to BC. So killing all ungulates is a type of loophole in BC for predator management. I haven't read the act personally so please correct if that is not right.

[carps19]

And cheaper, they have to pay someone to cull the wolves, but they get money for more LEH. Same as always, government is run by the mighty dollar. Screw our future, we want money now seems to be their motto!

[Hunting guy]

Specific to EK elk and whitail deer.

[Hunting guy]

[QUOTE=Kirby;1401447]You mean the cow GOS? yup, great thing. Overloading habitat leads to bad things, you can't stock pile game.

White-tailed deer? What reduction? We should have a 3 month 2 or 3 doe limit in regions 3, 4, 8. Lots of them around, highly underutilized. Likely our most underutilized.

How close to bad things where we before the moe saved the day and charged hunters $25 a head to slaughter half an elk herd?? Count me out of any group of hunters that likes the thought of the doe season you just suggested for region 4. What would you do with 3 does a year? Including fawns that will not be born after the mother is killed or the ones left to make it through the winter without its mother to teach them to survive your three dead deer could in a perfect world create 9 less deer come the following season! Under utilized ?????? Is that like saying they keep dying of old age so we need to kill them all before that happens???? Everyone can buy a tag over the counter and go hunting for a whitail buck, that is opertunity and that has been the case for long enough to know it works. Imagine when your three doe open season leaves hunters having to apply for an LEH just to hunt a whitail buck. That would be awesome, just imagine the utilization then. Some hunters do not enjoy the idea of three reckless years of killing anything that moves because they know it will take another 10 years to get the population back. Remember the 90's And the region 4 Cow Elk authorization's ?? It left population numbers low and then hard winters made it a double whammy that left us years of poor hunting.

[dana]

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Whitetails on LEH. Ha Ha Ha. Yup, they are a weak little species ain't they? Funny how some states have a deer a day baglimit for 3-4 months a year and still are overrun by the rats and yet having a doe season in BC means they'll all die off. Great posts on this thread. Makes for some entertaining reading. Ha Ha Ha.

[Everett]

[QUOTE=Kirby;1401447]You mean the cow GOS? yup, great thing. Overloading habitat leads to bad things, you can't stock pile game.

White-tailed deer? What reduction? We should have a 3 month 2 or 3 doe limit in regions 3, 4, 8. Lots of them around, highly underutilized. Likely our most underutilized.

How close to bad things where we before the moe saved the day and charged hunters $25 a head to slaughter half an elk herd?? Count me out of any group of hunters that likes the thought of the doe season you just suggested for region 4. What would you do with 3 does a year? Including fawns that will not be born after the mother is killed or the ones left to make it through the winter without its mother to teach them to survive your three dead deer could in a perfect world create 9 less deer come the following season! Under utilized ?????? Is that like saying they keep dying of old age so we need to kill them all before that happens???? Everyone can buy a tag over the counter and go hunting for a whitail buck, that is opertunity and that has been the case for long enough to know it works. Imagine when your three doe open season leaves hunters having to apply for an LEH just to hunt a whitail buck. That would be awesome, just imagine the utilization then. Some hunters do not enjoy the idea of three reckless years of killing anything that moves because they know it will take another 10 years to get the population back. Remember the 90's And the region 4 Cow Elk authorization's ?? It left population numbers low and then hard winters made it a double whammy that left us years of poor hunting.

Your ignorance and lack of understanding is mind boggling.

[masoncade1992]

Kirby, right you are about the overpop vs bad winters. however, is GOS the best choice? no control over how many are shot. if elk population's need to be reduced, let out more leh. When they opened Cow elk GOS last year, they had no clue how many were harvest, with LEH you can accurately pinpoint how many elk are taken.

for instance, say they wanted to remove 2000 cow elk. if the harvest rate is 80% let out 2400 leh tags. But when you have so many hunters coming to EK, all of them if they don't shoot a 6pt, will want to go after cow elk.

[Hunting guy]

Are you a biologist Kirby?

[GoatGuy]

How close to bad things where we before the moe saved the day and charged hunters $25 a head to slaughter half an elk herd?? Count me out of any group of hunters that likes the thought of the doe season you just suggested for region 4. What would you do with 3 does a year? Including fawns that will not be born after the mother is killed or the ones left to make it through the winter without its mother to teach them to survive your three dead deer could in a perfect world create 9 less deer come the following season! Under utilized ?????? Is that like saying they keep dying of old age so we need to kill them all before that happens???? Everyone can buy a tag over the counter and go hunting for a whitail buck, that is opertunity and that has been the case for long enough to know it works. Imagine when your three doe open season leaves hunters having to apply for an LEH just to hunt a whitail buck. That would be awesome, just imagine the utilization then. Some hunters do not enjoy the idea of three reckless years of killing anything that moves because they know it will take another 10 years to get the population back. Remember the 90's And the region 4 Cow Elk authorization's ?? It left population numbers low and then hard winters made it a double whammy that left us years of poor hunting.

The elk GOS was for non-migratory, homesteader populations which competed with migratory elk populations on an ever decreasing winter range. So you can have a bunch of elk that live in the trench all year or manage for migratory elk populations that use winter range during the winter instead of all year. From your posts it appears you favour (although unknowingly) destroying precious winter range, and increasing competition for high country elk populations. That is extremely unfortunate as it is probably the worst thing you could do for wildlife and more importantly habitat.

The antlerless wt harvest in 2011 was actually lower than LEH from 2010, or the LEH from the 1990s in many areas. WT are largely under-utilized across the province and can also be readily used to shift harvest away from other species which are more sensitive to harvest.

To be quite frank, the approach of stockpiling wildlife and this idea of reducing opportunity has probably been one of the biggest atrocities when it comes to wildlife management in BC. The winter range in the EK is in absolutely horrible shape. Forest ingrowth and invasive plants have left a pile of winter range in terrible shape and it gets worse by the year. You probably won't agree, or believe it, but that is a fact of life. There are far too many hunters worried about seeing a lot of deer, than healthy habitat and abundant wildlife populations.

So, I guess we get back to the concept of who comes first. Hunters, wildlife, habitat or the individual?? Personally I favour habitat, then wildlife, then hunters. It appears there is a generation out there that has favoured themselves and wanted to talk about hunting regulations for the past 30 years. You might belief otherwise, and that you've saved wildlife, but where is the proof? Where has the hunting regulation only approach gotten us??? While hunters were busy tinkering with seasons for themselves, the degradation of habitat and decline of populations started and it is getting worse - that doesn't even get us started on wolves.

If you want to help and leave something for future generations contact your MLA - talk about habitat enhancement, predator management and sustainable wildlife management. Or call them and talk about hunting season, do what you've been doing, and leave nothing for the future.

Unfortunately, it's pretty blatant when we talk about 'results'. The landscape is in very poor shape because hunters didn't proactively manage it. I hope current hunters and the 'next generation' take on the big picture issues of habitat to manage for abundant wildlife populations. They've certainly inherited a mess and an 'old school thought' that changing regulations will do something for wildlife.

[6point]

I can belive how delusional some of you are...I wonder how mule deer and whitetails lived together for so many years in the arrow lakes? I thought whitetails are killing the mulies?? animal numbers have all dropped in BC its a fact that people who live out in the country can see! everybody wants to come up from the coast and Okanagan to hunt anything that moves in region 4 because they have shot their own back yards out years ago and theres a 300 class bull elk around every corner in the WK and when they discover this isn't true then they pop the first spike or doe they can so they can feel good about themselfs. you all cry and cry about the wolves, cougars, bears, coyotes.. but you also want your small buck/doe/cow/calf seasons too....just keep takeing...a few more years and then you will all be crying about the danm wolf and how it single handedly cleaned everything out! by the way...I think I read a few pages back that after the 3 year moose cull there was about 400 animals left north of revelstoke?? that is a crock of s**t if I ever heard one!!! I bet not even half that number...

[boxhitch]

The EK cow elk story seems top be a good example of a good management plan. Season was opened , until the goal was achieved , and then closed. Just wish more managers could respond so well.


Are you a biologist Kirby?Well informed, for sure.

[wsm]

I find it interesting how many hunters love to claim to be conservationist however only until that affects their ability to fill a tag in 2 hours from a vehicle.

The best balance isn't the highest number of ungulates pyhsically possible. Its not healthy and its not beneficial long term.
there are lots of hunters that would fight tooth and nail for their right to kill the last standing animal of a given species. this is something I have learned here on HBC

[6point]

Why is hunter recruitment so dependant on killing the easiest animals available?? (Cows, calfs, does, fawns, young bucks and young bulls) And where will the new recruits be in 5 years when those animals are scarce and become considered a "hard hunt" ? 4 seasons ago in the EK any hunter could purchase a tag for elk or deer and stand a reasonable chance of harvesting an animal within that species while having an exciting hunting trip..... Granted you would have to display patience, a bit of hard work, the ability to count all the way up to 4 or 6 before pulling the trigger, also a basic understanding of the animal you where hunting so that a harvest would be possible. That sounds a lot more like "Hunting" to me. Was it so hard to hunt a whitetail buck that regulation change was needed so that new recruits could get their doe????? Did you hunt the Gos elk last season in the WK????? Seemed a bit slow to me, better open up cows and calfs next year to keep up fickle hunters intrest

no doubt!..

[GoatGuy]

I can belive how delusional some of you are...I wonder how mule deer and whitetails lived together for so many years in the arrow lakes? I thought whitetails are killing the mulies??animal numbers have all dropped in BC its a fact that people who live out in the country can see! everybody wants to come up from the coast and Okanagan to hunt anything that moves in region 4 because they have shot their own back yards out years ago and theres a 300 class bull elk around every corner in the WK and when they discover this isn't true then they pop the first spike or doe they can so they can feel good about themselfs. you all cry and cry about the wolves, cougars, bears, coyotes.. but you also want your small buck/doe/cow/calf seasons too....just keep takeing...a few more years and then you will all be crying about the danm wolf and how it single handedly cleaned everything out! by the way...I think I read a few pages back that after the 3 year moose cull there was about 400 animals left north of revelstoke?? that is a crock of s**t if I ever heard one!!! I bet not even half that number...

Unfortunately, there are no facts in this post. If you want to 'state a fact', please feel free to support it with something, anything. Most of what you've said about everyone in the WK or Region 4 is completely false. There are barely a fraction of the hunters in the WK that there are in Region 8.

There is all kinds of data out there,research, science, harvest statistics, GPSd animals in the WK, EK and even a few in the Okanagan.

Please feel free to find a few 'facts' for you arguments so that they can be taken realistically.

[Hunting guy]

The EK cow elk story seems top be a good example of a good management plan. Season was opened , until the goal was achieved , and then closed. Just wish more managers could respond so well.

Well informed, for sure.

so is that a "no"? It was a genuine question.

[Hunting guy]

Sorry, i had a slow post time there and didn't see your answer before that one was sent.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

there are lots of hunters that would fight tooth and nail for their right to kill the last standing animal of a given species. this is something I have learned here on HBC

Please give some examples of this.:confused:

SSS

[Hunting guy]

Well now we know how to fix poor habitat, we can just shoot everything and fix it....phew thats easy. Dana I wonder why Saskatchewan has had whitetail die offs??? I guess they need to look to Kentucky for answers? They can shoot a deer a day and never run out. Mind you Kentucky doesn't get -40deg winters with three feet of snow or wolves. But then again Saskatchewan should have plenty of feed for deer? Is this species really indestructible? Would fewer deer in Saskatchewan 5 years ago helped out today?

[GoatGuy]

Well now we know how to fix poor habitat, we can just shoot everything and fix it....phew thats easy. Dana I wonder why Saskatchewan has had whitetail die offs??? I guess they need to look to Kentucky for answers? They can shoot a deer a day and never run out. Mind you Kentucky doesn't get -40deg winters with three feet of snow or wolves. But then again Saskatchewan should have plenty of feed for deer? Is this species really indestructible? Would fewer deer in Saskatchewan 5 years ago helped out today?
See a lot of question marks, but very few questions.

The answer to the last 'question' is yes. Populations that are managed below carrying capacity better after die-offs than populations that are managed near carrying capacity as the actual die-off is much lower when populations are properly managed. Unfortunately, some hunters don't understand this issue and would rather stockpile wildlife which results in massive, widespread die-offs as opposed to managing populations well below carrying capacity so that populations are more responsive and productive.

This is pretty basic stuff.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Well now we know how to fix poor habitat, we can just shoot everything and fix it....phew thats easy. Dana I wonder why Saskatchewan has had whitetail die offs??? I guess they need to look to Kentucky for answers? They can shoot a deer a day and never run out. Mind you Kentucky doesn't get -40deg winters with three feet of snow or wolves. But then again Saskatchewan should have plenty of feed for deer? Is this species really indestructible? Would fewer deer in Saskatchewan 5 years ago helped out today?

You are correct that we can't compare vastly different geographical areas. In most of BC a lot of species are limited by winters and winter range(lower valleys). Now let's apply this knowledge to the EK elk scenario. Wheels starting to churn yet?
As GG mentioned, we can't stockpile wildlife.
It's been tried in the past and it doesn't work. You'll end up feeding the predators and scavengers.

SSS

[dana]

Well now we know how to fix poor habitat, we can just shoot everything and fix it....phew thats easy. Dana I wonder why Saskatchewan has had whitetail die offs??? I guess they need to look to Kentucky for answers? They can shoot a deer a day and never run out. Mind you Kentucky doesn't get -40deg winters with three feet of snow or wolves. But then again Saskatchewan should have plenty of feed for deer? Is this species really indestructible? Would fewer deer in Saskatchewan 5 years ago helped out today?

Ever hear of the mass culls Sask and Alta had a few years ago? Ever hear of CWD? Why did they have CWD? could it be that they had an over populated deer herd?

[6point]

As GG mentioned, we can't stockpile wildlife.
It's been tried in the past and it doesn't work. You'll end up feeding the predators and scavengers.

SSS and why can't we? I know lots of areas that used to be stock piled with animals up until a few years ago when any buck seasons, doe seasons, cow seasons combined with poaching had widdled the numbers down drastically and then wolves moved in...this year I didn't even bother going back to some of these places.

[6point]

Something I don't get is I know there are many others on here who say the same as me but don't have the ----s to say anything..

[gcreek]

See a lot of question marks, but very few questions.

The answer to the last 'question' is yes. Populations that are managed below carrying capacity better after die-offs than populations that are managed near carrying capacity as the actual die-off is much lower when populations are properly managed. Unfortunately, some hunters don't understand this issue and would rather stockpile wildlife which results in massive, widespread die-offs as opposed to managing populations well below carrying capacity so that populations are more responsive and productive.

This is pretty basic stuff.

Agree with your points GG.

Would be nice if the bios quit trying to stockpile wolves and in some areas, grizzlies.

[Iltasyuko]

Something I don't get is I know there are many others on here who say the same as me but don't have the ----s to say anything..

Hopefully they aren't posting because they are drafting letters to their MLA pushing for wildlife management that includes habitat improvement and active predator management.

[Hunting guy]

Did you ever take the time to read about the "mass culls" in Saskatchewan? It was in isolated areas not province wide. I haven't read a definitive reason for the outbreak of CWD in deer, elk and moose but I do think proximity to livestock shouldn't be totally written off before blaming over population. Lmao I was trying to make a point that parts of BC and more specifically the EK and WK could use a far more specific approach to doe and cow elk harvest. Not just a wild shit show taking place from daylight to dusk for two months of the year and primarily done from a well beaten logging road. If some areas have it that bad for habitat lets not take 3 years to disarm the time bomb. We could hit the winter range in December and take out an exact number of any species needing reduction. We don't need to make a big show of it or pretend its hunting, it will be habitat enhancement and it will be resolved quickly and precisly to minimize the threat. I am on board for that.

[dana]

this year I didn't even bother going back to some of these places.

There are always that segment of the hunter population like you that want easy hunting. They give up and move on to the greener grass as soon as it starts to get a little bit challenging. In those areas that guys like you abandon and give up on, the hunting starts to get good for those like me who like to have a challenge. Each to their own.

[coach]

Did you ever take the time to read about the "mass culls" in Saskatchewan? It was in isolated areas not province wide. I haven't read a definitive reason for the outbreak of CWD in deer, elk and moose but I do think proximity to livestock shouldn't be totally written off before blaming over population. Lmao I was trying to make a point that parts of BC and more specifically the EK and WK could use a far more specific approach to doe and cow elk harvest. Not just a wild shit show taking place from daylight to dusk for two months of the year and primarily done from a well beaten logging road. If some areas have it that bad for habitat lets not take 3 years to disarm the time bomb. We could hit the winter range in December and take out an exact number of any species needing reduction. We don't need to make a big show of it or pretend its hunting, it will be habitat enhancement and it will be resolved quickly and precisly to minimize the threat. I am on board for that.

So you'd cull them when residents are mixed with the migrating populations? Sounds perfectly illogical. :confused:

[6point]

Lmao yeah ok!

[dana]

Did you ever take the time to read about the "mass culls" in Saskatchewan? It was in isolated areas not province wide. I haven't read a definitive reason for the outbreak of CWD in deer, elk and moose but I do think proximity to livestock shouldn't be totally written off before blaming over population. Lmao I was trying to make a point that parts of BC and more specifically the EK and WK could use a far more specific approach to doe and cow elk harvest. Not just a wild shit show taking place from daylight to dusk for two months of the year and primarily done from a well beaten logging road. If some areas have it that bad for habitat lets not take 3 years to disarm the time bomb. We could hit the winter range in December and take out an exact number of any species needing reduction. We don't need to make a big show of it or pretend its hunting, it will be habitat enhancement and it will be resolved quickly and precisly to minimize the threat. I am on board for that.

The mass culls were not just small isolated areas. They killed gobs and gobs of deer. Many hunters were outraged that the Gov would do such a thing. Their trophy quality would be lost forever. Just let nature take its course was the sentiment of many hunters. CWD isn't all that bad. But gov carried out the cull for several years. What would have the last bad winter kill looked like had they not have conducted the cull? And has the trophy quality been lost forever? Hmmm, still seems Sask is producing monster whiteys. And what about mule deer. I don't have any fixed numbers but it seems Sask has produced more Booners post cull then it ever did before. Actually Sask leads any jurisdiction in NA with the exception of CO in the production of All Time entries in the last 5 years. So were the trophy hunters who bitched about the slaughter right or was the Gov right?

As for you last comment let me get this straight, you'd rather have a gov cull on the winter range where you can't know which is local versus which is migratory and kill them all off then let resident hunters focus on the problem local herd animals during hunting season? Are you serious. You would rather kill off the entire herd by gov sharp shooters in the air and let them rot where they lay than let resident hunters kill off the real problem animals and bring home some amazing table fair?

[6point]

There are always that segment of the hunter population like you that want easy hunting. They give up and move on to the greener grass as soon as it starts to get a little bit challenging. In those areas that guys like you abandon and give up on, the hunting starts to get good for those like me who like to have a challenge. Each to their own.
Lmao yeah ok!

[bridger]

Alberta uses helicopters to control the wolf problem, not a removal of prey like here in BC. I would like to give the helicopter approach a try. Would be a lot more specific.


Worked great in 7b back in the 80's

[Hunting guy]

Geez......never said I held an opinion other than the cause of CWD in Saskatchewan, I would have zero problem with total eradication in areas with CWD, still doesn't mean it won't be back. After hunting through a few late November hunts in Saskatchewan where pre wind chill temps where below -30 you would have a hard time convincing me that a few more prescribed burns and liberal doe hunting would make all the difference! 3 months of that its amazing anything survives. At some point you have to hand it to Mother Nature and hope she lets up eventually. Totally different scenario to here in BC. Sorry to get you so far off track. As far as the easy hunting thing goes I think you are more confused on that than you are by the Saskatchewan reference. It doesn't get any easier than a whitetail doe, and when hunted I have little problem with it. I think it's great for younger and new hunters it helps them get into the sport and can get people involves for life

[Hunting guy]

It's also great for anybody who has a harder time getting out hunting. But a crew of 40 something's in the prime of their life all worked up to kill as many does as they can chase down in their pick up or side by side gets old fast and puts out a bad image for all hunters.

[bridger]

and why can't we? I know lots of areas that used to be stock piled with animals up until a few years ago when any buck seasons, doe seasons, cow seasons combined with poaching had widdled the numbers down drastically and then wolves moved in...this year I didn't even bother going back to some of these places.

bios in the peace stockpiled mule deer for years to the point the population was no longer sustainable. The winter of 06/07 took care of that combined with political pressure from the agricultural community that resulted in a wide open doe season. Mule deer are in bad shape in the peace now. A different harvest strategy would have been a better plan.

[boxhitch]

a crew of 40 something's in the prime of their life all worked up to kill as many does as they can chase down in their pick up or side by sideserious ? Thats the picture you paint ?

[E.V.B.H.]

and why can't we? I know lots of areas that used to be stock piled with animals up until a few years ago when any buck seasons, doe seasons, cow seasons combined with poaching had widdled the numbers down drastically and then wolves moved in...this year I didn't even bother going back to some of these places.


The question has been answered, are you going to keep asking till you get the answer you want?

[dana]

Geez......never said I held an opinion other than the cause of CWD in Saskatchewan, I would have zero problem with total eradication in areas with CWD, still doesn't mean it won't be back. After hunting through a few late November hunts in Saskatchewan where pre wind chill temps where below -30 you would have a hard time convincing me that a few more prescribed burns and liberal doe hunting would make all the difference! 3 months of that its amazing anything survives. At some point you have to hand it to Mother Nature and hope she lets up eventually. Totally different scenario to here in BC. Sorry to get you so far off track. As far as the easy hunting thing goes I think you are more confused on that than you are by the Saskatchewan reference. It doesn't get any easier than a whitetail doe, and when hunted I have little problem with it. I think it's great for younger and new hunters it helps them get into the sport and can get people involves for life

The easy hunting comment was directed at 6 point who I assume is what I like to call a wannabe trophy hunter judging by his comments. They are the kind of hunter that thinks trophy animals should be behind every tree and when they encounter a little bit of hard hunting they give up. They constantly complain about how it is everybody elses fault that they didn't kill the said trophy critter. Too many hunters, too liberal seasons, too many does being shot by 40 year olds you know, those kind of excuses.

[E.V.B.H.]

Did you ever take the time to read about the "mass culls" in Saskatchewan? It was in isolated areas not province wide. I haven't read a definitive reason for the outbreak of CWD in deer, elk and moose but I do think proximity to livestock shouldn't be totally written off before blaming over population. Lmao I was trying to make a point that parts of BC and more specifically the EK and WK could use a far more specific approach to doe and cow elk harvest. Not just a wild shit show taking place from daylight to dusk for two months of the year and primarily done from a well beaten logging road. If some areas have it that bad for habitat lets not take 3 years to disarm the time bomb. We could hit the winter range in December and take out an exact number of any species needing reduction. We don't need to make a big show of it or pretend its hunting, it will be habitat enhancement and it will be resolved quickly and precisly to minimize the threat. I am on board for that.


So if they are all getting shot from logging roads, then how many can really be getting killed. In my experience more animals live off the roads than on them.

[Hunting guy]

Sorry was that you in the razor chasing deer?? Didn't mean to strike a nerve

[GoatGuy]

Sorry was that you in the razor chasing deer?? Didn't mean to strike a nerve

If someone was chasing a deer in a motorized vehicle it should be reported.

[boxhitch]

I know lots of areas that used to be stock piled with animals up until a few years ago when any buck seasons, doe seasons, cow seasons combined with poaching had widdled the numbers down drasticallyBold statements without facts
what lead to the 'stockpile' ? simply having a healthy pop. number isn't 'stockpiling'
and the decline ? nothing to due with winter kill ? or natural trends ?
Other posts have some science to back them up , not so here


Something I don't get is I know there are many others on here who say the same as me or not

[Hunting guy]

If someone was chasing a deer in a motorized vehicle it should be reported.

Let's not forget to use our sense of humour a bit here. I obviously never witnessed Dana chasing deer on a razor.

[GoatGuy]

Geez......never said I held an opinion other than the cause of CWD in Saskatchewan, I would have zero problem with total eradication in areas with CWD, still doesn't mean it won't be back. After hunting through a few late November hunts in Saskatchewan where pre wind chill temps where below -30 you would have a hard time convincing me that a few more prescribed burns and liberal doe hunting would make all the difference! 3 months of that its amazing anything survives. At some point you have to hand it to Mother Nature and hope she lets up eventually. Totally different scenario to here in BC. Sorry to get you so far off track. As far as the easy hunting thing goes I think you are more confused on that than you are by the Saskatchewan reference. It doesn't get any easier than a whitetail doe, and when hunted I have little problem with it. I think it's great for younger and new hunters it helps them get into the sport and can get people involves for life

WSI for the EK is way lower than Saskatchewan.

Habitat in Saskatchewan is completely different from BC as well.

Most of this stuff either doesn't make sense or is contradictory. Is it that the hunting is too easy or that it isn't sustainable?

Why anyone would want to harvest elk on winter range in December when the targeted population is homesteaders is beyond me. That is how you can create real problems.

[E.V.B.H.]

Hunting guy, haha, no nerve struck at all:-D. But I do shoot a doe every year to do my part. With my bow from a blind or a stand, never shot one with a rifle or from a quad. But you did say all the animals are being shot from the road. Hard to put a dent in a population that way when there is a lot of roadless terrain where the majority of them live.

[GoatGuy]

Let's not forget to use our sense of humour a bit here. I obviously never witnessed Dana chasing deer on a razor.

....................................


It's also great for anybody who has a harder time getting out hunting. But a crew of 40 something's in the prime of their life all worked up to kill as many does as they can chase down in their pick up or side by side gets old fast and puts out a bad image for all hunters.

[boxhitch]

Over and over we hear of guys saying how an area is so much harder to hunt after the pressure is turned up , that all the animals have been killed off.
Very seldom is credit given to the animals ability to adapt and change habits and learn to avoid trouble or to move away.
Inventories often show pops. are in good shape yet hunters cry 'foul'.
Knowing the truth can be very humbling.

[Hunting guy]

So it's homesteaders only until oct 10th in zone X ??? Like clock work I guess. Would take a huge level of arrogance to actually believe that

[boxhitch]

bios in the peace stockpiled mule deer for years to the point the population was no longer sustainable. The winter of 06/07 took care of that combined with political pressure from the agricultural community that resulted in a wide open doe season. Mule deer are in bad shape in the peace now. A different harvest strategy would have been a better plan.Almost like a move done 'in spite' by someone who didn't like anyone telling them how to run things ?
A good followup would have been a close of that 'wide open season' sooner

[GoatGuy]

So it's homesteaders only until oct 10th in zone X ??? Like clock work I guess. Would take a huge level of arrogance to actually believe that

GOS and youth/senior GOS was in September, very few tags in Oct/Nov.

You'd know that if you cared enough about the resource to get involved.

[Hunting guy]

Hunting guy, haha, no nerve struck at all:-D. But I do shoot a doe every year to do my part. With my bow from a blind or a stand, never shot one with a rifle or from a quad. But you did say all the animals are being shot from the road. Hard to put a dent in a population that way when there is a lot of roadless terrain where the majority of them live.

The chasing comment was just kidding around with Dana and wasn't directed at you or meant to be taken serious at all. I also think its great to hunt deer the same way that you do, I have tried unsuccessfully to get a doe with my bow. What I am getting at is the extermination type "hunting" done to achieve government agendas or to keep the attention of half way hunters.

[Hunting guy]

GOS and youth/senior GOS was in September, very few tags in Oct/Nov.

You'd know that if you cared enough about the resource to get involved.

What was the target of the LEH season in zone X this year?? It closed Oct 10. There wasn't a Gos rifle season for cow elk this year.Tried to bring up a question based on a fact there with a hard date and still it gets a snappy answer. Tough conversation to have.

[aggiehunter]

Goatguy is correct about the state of the habitat and something needs to be done..and not just in Region 4...however...believing or asking for 'facts" about wildlife management is a storey of the impossible...the best thing about being (I include all of us) an armchair biologist is all you need is an armchair...

[gcreek]

Over and over we hear of guys saying how an area is so much harder to hunt after the pressure is turned up , that all the animals have been killed off.
Very seldom is credit given to the animals ability to adapt and change habits and learn to avoid trouble or to move away.
Inventories often show pops. are in good shape yet hunters cry 'foul'.
Knowing the truth can be very humbling.

I have a couple of comments for the inventory vs. success statement.

In February of this 2012, MOE spent 3 days with 2 helicopters and 1 plane counting moose in 5-12 B. Total count was 107 moose between Tatla Lake and the SE corner of the Itcha Mountains. The native guy that flew with them also counted 78 wolves. Why then were 189 bull moose LEH tags handed out in 2012?

[Hunting guy]

That's the wolf cull loophole in action, kill all bull moose, population declines all wolves die, a few moose survive, wildlife managers pat themselves on the back and 40 years from now we do it all over again.

[GoatGuy]

That's the wolf cull loophole in action, kill all bull moose, population declines all wolves die, a few moose survive, wildlife managers pat themselves on the back and 40 years from now we do it all over again.

Wildlife managers recommended predator reduction and management in both treatment areas.

It's the hunters who don't get involved that screw things up.

[Blainer]

That's the wolf cull loophole in action, kill all bull moose, population declines all wolves die, a few moose survive, wildlife managers pat themselves on the back and 40 years from now we do it all over again.except the wolves travel on after after the moose kill, only to return in years to come.:icon_frow

[gcreek]

Wildlife managers recommended predator reduction and management in both treatment areas.

It's the hunters who don't get involved that screw things up.

Have you got names, documents and signatures to back that up?

You can PM me if you like.

[steel_ram]

except the wolves travel on after after the moose kill, only to return in years to come.:icon_frow

Where do they go? Into another packs territory? Maybe into the spirit world where they live without any food source.

[gcreek]

Where do they go? Into another packs territory? Maybe into the spirit world where they live without any food source.

Depending on the strength of the packs involved, some will move into another's territory. Packs will occasionally amalgamate and split also.
At times, more than the dominant pair will breed.

As long as there are a few of us ranchers bullheaded enough to keep feeding them the wolves won't be out of a food source too soon.

[Hunting guy]

Where do they go? Into another packs territory? Maybe into the spirit world where they live without any food source.

Once moose are gone there main food source will change to the next available animal, cows, deer, bears, beavers, fish. Once they are out of control they need to be put back into control with an effective common sense approach..

[GoatGuy]

What was the target of the LEH season in zone X this year?? It closed Oct 10. There wasn't a Gos rifle season for cow elk this year.Tried to bring up a question based on a fact there with a hard date and still it gets a snappy answer. Tough conversation to have.

The LEHs are limited, the objective is more to keep elk moving around and try to push them off private property.

Your question had nothing to do with fact; it was a dumb question (more like rhetoric) to try to prove you're right.

[GoatGuy]

Where do they go? Into another packs territory? Maybe into the spirit world where they live without any food source.

A couple of the wolves from Revelstoke starved to death, a couple moved to the North Okanagan and some stayed in Revelstoke area. Wolves eat everything including deer, elk, beavers, bears, cougars, caribou, mountain goats and moose.

A few of the collared wolves from the North Thompson moved down towards the Shuswap and hammered the deer after they had cleaned the moose out of the North Thompson.

Lots of collared wolves (dispersers) that cover hundreds of miles. In "city talk" revelstoke to creston, to cranbrook, into Montana, Idaho and all the way back.

[GoatGuy]

Once moose are gone there main food source will change to the next available animal, cows, deer, bears, beavers, fish. Once they are out of control they need to be put back into control with an effective common sense approach..

The 'main food source' depends on the habitat and prey species available. Often wolves are opportunistic.

To say that moose is the main food source for all wolves is pretty silly when you consider places like Vancouver Island has NO MOOSE and a pile of wolves!

[Husky7mm]

Wildlife managers recommended predator reduction and management in both treatment areas.

It's the hunters who don't get involved that screw things up.

You can't say the wildlife managers still smell like roses in this mess... Prey management is relatively unproven tactic. And why was the value of moose put beneath the value of wolves? Who wants that? No matter how the cookie crumbles animals will die. If predator management is not implemented we will shift from a caribou problem to a moose and deer problem. Some areas are already balls deep in it actually. Top it all off the fair weathered new recruitments a will drop the sport due to weak inventory. Epic loss for all.

[GoatGuy]

You can't say the wildlife managers still smell like roses in this mess... Prey management is relatively unproven tactic. And why was the value of moose put beneath the value of wolves? Who wants that? No matter how the cookie crumbles animals will die. If predator management is not implemented we will shift from a caribou problem to a moose and deer problem. Some areas are already balls deep in it actually. Top it all off the fair weathered new recruitments a will drop the sport due to weak inventory. Epic loss for all.

When you send a briefing note to a Minister he/she wants a couple of options. Politicians choose the option that is easiest for politicians, not for wildlife.

Hunters make decisions like predator management easy for politicians because:

1) They never complain to their politicians. Usually they sit around, drink coffee at the tim horton's in Cranbrook and whine about wildlife management, will doing nothing productive.

2) If they do they complain, it's about trivial things like a wt deer season or closing the road to their favorite hunting spots.


There are times when managers have screwed up there is no doubt, but I can say unequivocally the greatest barrier to wildlife management in BC is hunters. That is where the blame lies.

[horshur]

When you send a briefing note to a Minister he/she wants a couple of options. Politicians choose the option that is easiest for politicians, not for wildlife.

Hunters make decisions like predator management easy for politicians because:

1) They never complain to their politicians. Usually they sit around, drink coffee at the tim horton's in Cranbrook and whine about wildlife management, will doing nothing productive.

2) If they do they complain, it's about trivial things like a wt deer season or closing the road to their favorite hunting spots.


There are times when managers have screwed up there is no doubt, but I can say unequivocally the greatest barrier to wildlife management in BC is hunters. That is where the blame lies.

Honest Goat...when I think about a hunter I do not think about someone who would write a letter to anybody even his wife........I guess it is important but jeez that is not in our DNA...

[GoatGuy]

Honest Goat...when I think about a hunter I do not think about someone who would write a letter to anybody even his wife........I guess it is important but jeez that is not in our DNA...

But they sure know how to complain, eh? :-D

Not sure where the disconnect is on this. Some people say it's apathy, some people say people don't feel like they can drive change, some think hunters are just lazy, some that hunters don't know what to do.

I know in the US that politicians live and die by what hunters and anglers in their ridings tell them to do.

We are really missing the boat on this stuff in BC. I guys spent 1/100th of the HBC time meeting with their MLAs we would have money for wildlife management without a doubt and we might even have predator management. Heck, they were out harvesting grizzly bears from helicopters this year in Alaska to increase moose populations - just goes to show how things can change if people show up.

[Husky7mm]

Beautiful BC is facked up on more than just those issues..... This is really basic stuff man. 😏

[Grizz59]

I seldom get involved in these threads as they usually end up sideways and believe me i have taken enough crap from a handful of people here in Revelstoke for my views on these issues, but i am really happy with the disscussion that has taken place here. Goatguy,Kirby. Dana and Coach to name a few have all made great points and suggestions on how to move forward.It doesn't matter to me where you stand on these issues but everyone needs to take time to make their point to the people who make our wildlife decisions. If you don't like writing get involved in your local club and work thru that angle. I know one year we had our wildlife comm. draft a letter up on a issue, had it approved by the club and anyone who wanted to could take a copy sign it and mail it off to the Govt. There are a lot of ways to go about this if we would just get off our butts and do it.GG i'm off first two weeks in Nov. give me a call if you want to come up to chase some deer.

[Jelvis]

This is digital times folks, letters I don't know? Tweets, facebook, websites and instant messaging, send e-mails and what not, visit your local mla's and talk turkey.
Jelly Hill Figger

[ElliotMoose]

I'd be interested in writing up a letter. I'm no biologist but have read quite a bit on the topic. Can someone toss me the email address of an MLA I can fire it off to?

[Iltasyuko]

Look up your MLA here by name, constituency or location:


http://www.leg.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm

[GoatGuy]

Look up your MLA here by name, constituency or location:


http://www.leg.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm

All letters should go to local MLA and also go to:

Premier: premier@gov.bc.ca
Min of Environment: env.minister@gov.bc.ca
Min Forests, Lands, and Natural Resource Operations: flnr.minister@gov.bc.ca

[boxhitch]

Beautiful BC is facked up on more than just those issues..... This is really basic stuff man. Overwhelming is it ? lots of causes to pick on , but its still better to pick up one drum and beat it than to go unheard.

[GoatGuy]

Beautiful BC is facked up on more than just those issues..... This is really basic stuff man. 

All you need is political will to get money, wildlife management, predator management............

It all starts and ends with politicians.

[Husky7mm]

All you need is political will to get money, wildlife management, predator management............

It all starts and ends with politicians.

I hate to say it but at one time I thought we were getting somewhere...... Now I see more studies.... Continuing caribou studies, an increase in moose studies and mule deer to follow. A bunch of studies hoping to find predation not one of the main causes of the problem. All so someone in charge doesn't have to push the button or finally pull the trigger.

[GoatGuy]

I hate to say it but at one time I thought we were getting somewhere...... Now I see more studies.... Continuing caribou studies, an increase in moose studies and mule deer to follow. A bunch of studies hoping to find predation not one of the main causes of the problem. All so someone in charge doesn't have to push the button or finally pull the trigger.

No one will pull the trigger unless hunters get engaged.

The various politicians and Ministers have known since the 80s that predator management and reduction is required to save Mtn Caribou. There is nothing 'new' about that.

We also know that wolf management will result in a response in moose - that's been proven in BC, YK, AK, AB. We know that the 70% decline in Vancouver Island deer populations could be mitigated through wolf management - the experiment's already been done.

And still there's no action: WHY??????????

Politicians will 'study things to death' if hunters let them.......... and they are.

[seymourpats1]

I live part time at Seymour arm on north shuswap. I haven't seen a caribou in the upper Seymour for at least ten years, always been a ton of wolves, the explosion in snowmobiling is a major contributor to getting wolves to the caribou. Some areas are closed, but often ignored. On an average wkd in winter at least fifty Alberta snowmobilers are up there. The snowmobile tracks have wolf tracks in them within days. Unfortuneatley the snowmobilers I talk with do not believe the tracks they leave are a problem. They are. They should closed down sledding in any endangered caribou habitat. Most of the sledders are Albertan, and have no concern over it. They brag about bringing cheap Alberta fuel and beer, they often don't spend a dime in BC, get rid of them.

[dana]

Anyone hear the Region 5 bio on CBC this morning regarding moose? Bull to cow ratios are good so the numbers are not down due to overharvesting of the bull population. He had no idea why the numbers were down and certainly did not lay blame on wolves and skirted the issue of overharvest of cows by natives. Instead he figured a study will be needed to find out why moose numbers are down by as much as 70% in some MUs.

[GoatGuy]

My first guess is that the 'bio' you are referring to isn't a wildlife biologist.

[dana]

I'm not sure if they actually called him a bio. Regardless, he's the dude in charge in Region 5. ;)

[GoatGuy]

I'm not sure if they actually called him a bio. Regardless, he's the dud in charge in Region 5. ;)

fixed and clean out your pm box.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

True story Dana, from the top guy/ Talking about the FN over harvest of cow moose and poisoning wolves will get you fired around here if you are a government emplyee.
No Guff!!

[Argali]

Sad to hear about the lack of caribou in the upper Seymour. I still vividly remember hunting caribou there and in the Perry during the GOS season in the early 80's. Hard to believe the difference in 30 years. At the time, we saw relatively few wolf tracks. However, there were hundreds of bears and some grizzlies.

I was noting in the Downie Creek Caribou report ("updated 2006") that in the early 90's the primary cause of mortality was accidents in the late winter, with some predation in the summer and winter.

Subsequent to 1997, the primary cause of mortality was predation during the summer, not the winter as I might have expected. Things may have changed more recently as snow mobiling has become more popular and winter predation may have increased.

The Downie report lists 15 predation mortalities on radio-collared caribou from 1992 to an unspecified time prior to 2006:
cougar: 5
bears: 5
wolverine: 4
wolf: 1

Perhaps wolf predation has increased substantially as the wolf population has increased; however, this information would suggest that controlling only the wolf population may not be sufficient. Even if the high current wolf population has reduced the other predators, their numbers would soon increase again if the wolves were culled.

If you are curious, the other causes of caribou mortality were:
avalanches: 6
accidents: 7
vehicle: 1
poor nutrition: 3
unknown: 9

The somewhat unsettling aspect of the report is they continually talk about the 39 caribou mortalities when the data in the table they submit actually totals 41? Hmm??

[gcreek]

I'm not sure if they actually called him a bio. Regardless, he's the dude in charge in Region 5. ;)


Quite good at rambling on and never saying anything. Just like always.

CH, I doubt Mr. Stewart would get fired for making a recommendation to kill a few wolves. He should be fired for not making a decision. He prefers studies to keep all of his assistants employed and the money flowing in. Donna Barnett makes no bones about her stance on reducing the wolf population a few notches.

[thick]

After reading the majority of this thread, it is quite clear that as hunters we are not doing a good job of getting our voice and concerns heard by the govt. GoatGuy is clearly in the know and continually reminding all of us to email our MLA's etc to express our concerns.

I am a forester like Dana and many others on this site and see on a daily basis the increased wolf sign in Reg 8 where I work and decreased sightings of deer, moose, elk etc. I have seen more wolves and wolf tracks in the last couple yrs then in the last 10 yrs. Clearly there is a major issue with wolves in all regions of the province and the govt needs to step in soon to help mitigate the major issue of wolves and predation in BC.

So, as with any issue that involves the govt hearing an interest's groups voice there is power in numbers! What can we do as a group on HBC to get our voice heard? Maybe someone draft up a letter to the govt or MLA's with signatures of support from as many members as possible from the HBC group as a whole? Maybe some sort of petition type document... I'm not sure the best way to get our voice heard as a group?

I know it would be best if everyone wrote a letter individually but that will not happen, I am guilty of being "lazy" and spend more time bitching than trying to deal with the situation like many others on the site..... So maybe there is a way we could get our voice heard as a group that could potentially help the situation

Goatguy has hit the nail on the head that we have to speak up, so does anyone have some ideas of something the HBC group could do together as a whole??? GoatGuy any ideas? Or should we just all try and write a letter to our MLA individually like previously suggested?

[GoatGuy]

Sad to hear about the lack of caribou in the upper Seymour. I still vividly remember hunting caribou there and in the Perry during the GOS season in the early 80's. Hard to believe the difference in 30 years. At the time, we saw relatively few wolf tracks. However, there were hundreds of bears and some grizzlies.

I was noting in the Downie Creek Caribou report ("updated 2006") that in the early 90's the primary cause of mortality was accidents in the late winter, with some predation in the summer and winter.

Subsequent to 1997, the primary cause of mortality was predation during the summer, not the winter as I might have expected. Things may have changed more recently as snow mobiling has become more popular and winter predation may have increased.

The Downie report lists 15 predation mortalities on radio-collared caribou from 1992 to an unspecified time prior to 2006:
cougar: 5
bears: 5
wolverine: 4
wolf: 1

Perhaps wolf predation has increased substantially as the wolf population has increased; however, this information would suggest that controlling only the wolf population may not be sufficient. Even if the high current wolf population has reduced the other predators, their numbers would soon increase again if the wolves were culled.

If you are curious, the other causes of caribou mortality were:
avalanches: 6
accidents: 7
vehicle: 1
poor nutrition: 3
unknown: 9

The somewhat unsettling aspect of the report is they continually talk about the 39 caribou mortalities when the data in the table they submit actually totals 41? Hmm??

Wolf population increase and re-colonization happened well after this report. The caribou populations around that country (Nakusp/Columbia south/Purcells South/Monashee/Purcells North) have pretty much all seen declines. Some have disappeared, others are not viable.

If we're going to have caribou in Central and Southern BC for the foreseeable future (without raising them in captivity) we will have to have ongoing predator management. Otherwise, we'll be raising them in a pen and cutting them loose after - hopefully enough will be released so they don't all end up as wolf/cougar scat. I can guarantee the cost of catching cows and rearing the calves in a pen will be monumentally more expensive than predator control.

Over the course of the past 30 years the central/southern caribou pops (not including itchas) have gone from ~2,500 to ~1,500.

[Lillypuff]

Great post Thick I was wondering what to put in a letter? Any ideas how to draft one up? Not very good at communicating by writing. Much better face to face

[GoatGuy]

After reading the majority of this thread, it is quite clear that as hunters we are not doing a good job of getting our voice and concerns heard by the govt. GoatGuy is clearly in the know and continually reminding all of us to email our MLA's etc to express our concerns.

I am a forester like Dana and many others on this site and see on a daily basis the increased wolf sign in Reg 8 where I work and decreased sightings of deer, moose, elk etc. I have seen more wolves and wolf tracks in the last couple yrs then in the last 10 yrs. Clearly there is a major issue with wolves in all regions of the province and the govt needs to step in soon to help mitigate the major issue of wolves and predation in BC.

So, as with any issue that involves the govt hearing an interest's groups voice there is power in numbers! What can we do as a group on HBC to get our voice heard? Maybe someone draft up a letter to the govt or MLA's with signatures of support from as many members as possible from the HBC group as a whole? Maybe some sort of petition type document... I'm not sure the best way to get our voice heard as a group?

I know it would be best if everyone wrote a letter individually but that will not happen, I am guilty of being "lazy" and spend more time bitching than trying to deal with the situation like many others on the site..... So maybe there is a way we could get our voice heard as a group that could potentially help the situation

Goatguy has hit the nail on the head that we have to speak up, so does anyone have some ideas of something the HBC group could do together as a whole??? GoatGuy any ideas? Or should we just all try and write a letter to our MLA individually like previously suggested?

Definitely open to suggestions. Individually to all MLAs will work better than a group. Need all the politicians buzzing about issues.

Maybe put a letter together and post so people can use as a template and share there's on HBC?

Then folks share responses from their MLAs on HBC?

Ideas?

[Lillypuff]

You are leading the horses to water here goatguy. Up to us to take a drink. Something as a template would help me for one. My english teacher used to beat me so I now have the secretary or wife write my letters

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Write your MLA's not only about wolf control but Grizzly hunts in the west Chilcotin. The over abundance of grizz has really hurt the calf moose survival rate.

[seymourpats1]

Sad to hear about the lack of caribou in the upper Seymour. I still vividly remember hunting caribou there and in the Perry during the GOS season in the early 80's. Hard to believe the difference in 30 years. At the time, we saw relatively few
olf tracks. However, there were hundreds of bears and some grizzlies.

I was noting in the Downie Creek Caribou report ("updated 2006") that in the early 90's the primary cause of mortality was accidents in the late winter, with some predation in the summer and winter.

Subsequent to 1997, the primary cause of mortality was predation during the summer, not the winter as I might have expected. Things may have changed more recently as snow mobiling has become more popular and winter predation may have increased.

The Downie report lists 15 predation mortalities on radio-collared caribou from 1992 to an unspecified time prior to 2006:
cougar: 5
bears: 5
wolverine: 4
wolf: 1

Perhaps wolf predation has increased substantially as the wolf population has increased; however, this information would suggest that controlling only the wolf population may not be sufficient. Even if the high current wolf population has reduced the other predators, their numbers would soon increase again if the wolves were culled.

If you are curious, the other causes of caribou mortality were:
avalanches: 6
accidents: 7
vehicle: 1
poor nutrition: 3
unknown: 9

The somewhat unsettling aspect of the report is they continually talk about the 39 caribou mortalities when the data in the table they submit actually totals 41? Hmm??
I never hunted them there, but was awesome to see them. My parents live there year round, so I get all the sighting stories. The Co's I've seen there all agreed it's related to snowmobile activity. Although your staTs may say different.I'm heading there tmw, maybe I'll see one!

[aggiehunter]

Maybe we should all write letters with respect to the uncontrolled (uncontrollable) harvest of moose by First Nations.....wonder where this would get us.

[boxhitch]

Why not pick on something you have half a chance of changing , instead of just waving after the ship has sailed ?

[Sitkaspruce]

Could you imagine if all the members and lurkers, minus the 10% who think wolves are cute and only kill the sick and old, actually wrote letters to their MLA's, the Ministers of MOE and FLNRO and the Premier, how that would creat a buzz in the halls.

We do have the BCWF as well, but we cannot just rely on them, we NEED to get out ourselves and do something about this. Quite bitching at each other and start bitching at the people who can actually make a difference.

Cheers

SS

[Argali]

OK, I hope you get to see one up there. Don't shoot any caribou, but watch for wolves! As GoatGuy pointed out, things have probably changed since the Downie study of 2006 in terms of wolf predation, but it is interesting to see how the types of mortality have changed and increased over the years. Hope the snowmobilers can be convinced to go somewhere else. There are lots of good areas that aren't caribou winter range.

But mostly, it is time to cull the wolves before the population is extinct. The Americans have been culling cow-killer wolves, and the wolf is a more sensitive species in the lower 48 than it is here. I don't think it would be as politically unpopular as people think, except among the wolf-loving fringe. Most people don't really care that much either way, and I think most people (at least in the interior) could be convinced to accept a wolf cull if it means saving an otherwise extinct caribou herd. However, you would have to promote a cull as just one small element of "proCaribou", "Save the Caribou", or "CaribouCare" rather than "wolf cull".

[Argali]

Emails for the local MLAs.

MLA: Greg Kyllo
Shuswap BRITISH COLUMBIA LIBERAL PARTY





E-mail:

greg.kyllo.mla@leg.bc.ca

MLA: Norm Macdonald
Columbia River-Revelstoke
Elected: 2005, 2009, 2013
NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA





E-mail:
norm.macdonald.mla@leg.bc.ca

[Hodaka]

"Now, because its GOS, very hard hunting in wk."
One weak season in the WK, and he's ready to jump ship to Ft. St. John! Bedwetter. Maybe you need to be quieter in the bush!

;)

[bckoothunter]

It's because of this kind of short sightedness that we are in this predicament now. Supporters of these new, ridiculous, liberal hunting seasons and bag limits can't see that slaughtering for a few years results in years of difficult, low success hunting. Meat hunters always managed before we had these stupid seasons, so what's the justification to destroy our wildlife populations that met the needs of all hunters? Just because certain hunters seek out the old, mature animals, does not mean they only harvest for the horns. The majority of "trophy" hunters I know, love wild meat and work extremely hard packing out heavy packs full of meat, after their "trophy" hunt.


As far as the "Oh and your kids will actually get to hunt now instead of waiting till there 40 to draw a LEH tag". Think about it, if we kill every friggin animal that moves, what's left for our kids???? How about managing our animals properly and allowing sustainable harvest vs destroying wildlife populations in 4 years.

[bckoothunter]

Sorry, that was suppossed to quote a post from quite far back, kinda messed that up.

[GoatGuy]

It's because of this kind of short sightedness that we are in this predicament now. Supporters of these new, ridiculous, liberal hunting seasons and bag limits can't see that slaughtering for a few years results in years of difficult, low success hunting. Meat hunters always managed before we had these stupid seasons, so what's the justification to destroy our wildlife populations that met the needs of all hunters? Just because certain hunters seek out the old, mature animals, does not mean they only harvest for the horns. The majority of "trophy" hunters I know, love wild meat and work extremely hard packing out heavy packs full of meat, after their "trophy" hunt.


As far as the "Oh and your kids will actually get to hunt now instead of waiting till there 40 to draw a LEH tag". Think about it, if we kill every friggin animal that moves, what's left for our kids???? How about managing our animals properly and allowing sustainable harvest vs destroying wildlife populations in 4 years.


Hunter harvest is not liberal in BC. We actually manage our sex ratios at higher minimums than other jrusidictions targets. We are generally considered a conservative jurisdiction in large part due to our lack of funding for wildlife managmenet and our inability to consistently inventory wildlife populations. We also have extremely low hunter numbers as compared to other jurisdictions. By and large id say most of what you've written, while true in your mind isn't consistent with reality and that again if you want to increase wildlife populations the only way to do that is through habitat enhancement and predator management. The only way to get that is to go complain to your MLA.

[aggiehunter]

nobody needs to bang the habitat enhancement and predator control drum anymore...we all know it....but if that doesn't work...if there isn't the heart/money for it...then we need to cut our harvest back.

[boxhitch]

lead the way aggie , hang up your tools and buy beef.

[hunter1947]

GOS for species of different kinds is not managed properly I agree a person can point there finger at the regulations and say this should not be ,,, its a big circle with all predators in areas big in numbers is one problem ,,GOS on opening to closing season targeting different species is another ,,hunters in big numbers is another..

One example my thoughts are in regions that hold big numbers of WT deer female species are not targeted most hunters will pass on the doe and take a buck if they can the doe population still will remain hi in numbers this is a no brainer the number of does in the area I hunt are still in big numbers doe to buck numbers are way out what I saw for WT is 1 buck to 30 does..

My thoughts are management has to do something to make sure that these hi populated areas of WT does are taken care of the get the number of buck to doe at the right number there the experts not me..

My thoughts are that management does not have the staff numbers for science to work you have to have revenue and the women and man power to make it work my thoughts are they don't have this..

One more how the hell does the wildlife branch know how many animals had been taken in any region I say they don't and never will till they do something about this it all falls back onto revenue and management not being able to do there jobs without the revenue and man women power..

One more thought I have never seen or talked to any biologists out in the woods the number of years I have hunted my thoughts again the management don't have the revenue man women power to spend a number of months out in the woods to get an idea whats out there for animals predators in all regions that's my opinion on what my thoughts are..

[GoatGuy]

nobody needs to bang the habitat enhancement and predator control drum anymore...we all know it....but if that doesn't work...if there isn't the heart/money for it...then we need to cut our harvest back.
We have in areas where were below the minimum sex ratios, which are not conservation related minimums they are social minimums. It is unlikely we have any populations that are being negatively impacted by hunter harvest through male only hunting.

Other than the odd wt population and elk in ag conflict areas hunters are really playing no part in 'wildlife management'. We're just shooting a few of the surplus.

[Walking Buffalo]

Ever hear of the mass culls Sask and Alta had a few years ago? Ever hear of CWD? Why did they have CWD? could it be that they had an over populated deer herd?



Are you suggesting that CWD in Sask/Ab wild deer herds is due to overpopulation?

In a sense this is true. CWD exists in Sask/Ab wild deer herds due to an overpopulation of Deer and Elk on Game farms.









Hunter harvest is not liberal in BC. We actually manage our sex ratios at higher minimums than other jrusidictions targets. We are generally considered a conservative jurisdiction in large part due to our lack of funding for wildlife managmenet and our inability to consistently inventory wildlife populations. We also have extremely low hunter numbers as compared to other jurisdictions. By and large id say most of what you've written, while true in your mind isn't consistent with reality and that again if you want to increase wildlife populations the only way to do that is through habitat enhancement and predator management. The only way to get that is to go complain to your MLA.


I find that hunters in general do not understand how/why wildlife management decisions are made. The information/techniques used by managers should be more readily available. Educating hunters will help produce activism for the cause.

Many may be surprised at how low the harvest goal is compared to the population estimate.

If your willing, please give us a few examples of how LEH licence numbers/GOS seasons are determined.