Dog training help......

[fudge]

I will be getting a lab in feb and would like some info on training him right for duck hunting and were to start. I live in the lower main land and find it hard to find anyone that trains or would be willing to help me with him. I would be willing to go to a professional or work with people that do it as a hobby any help would be amazing thanks in advance. Also what is the best way to start when I get him home..

[Rackem]

Foxton Gundogs Jim is a very good person to talk to, he knows dogs. There should be field trailing groups down there you can connect with...


Fraser Valley Retriever Training Club http://fvrtc.com/aboutus.html

RICHMOND RETRIEVER CLUB PRESIDENT – Willie Taylor 652 Mallory Road, Enderby, BC V0E 1V3 250-832-2819 labs@bigvalleykennel.com

BC Lab Club http://www.bclab.com/

BC AMATEUR FIELD TRIAL CLUB
PRESIDENT – John Hatfield
5089 - 59A St, Delta, BC V4K 3M4 604-946-2734
SECRETARY – Jane Spearing
4410 50A Street, Delta, BC V4K 4M1 604-946-8812
jspearing@sd38.bc.ca

[ActionJackson017]

Jimsue, Kasamor & BCGamebirds are also very knowledeable about dogs and labs. I went through a similar challenge with my pup last year. Good luck fudge!

[pnbrock]

Bcgamebirds trained my dog Hudson and with three of four pheasants yesterday I'll say he did a great job.

[Rackem]

I know there are many people on this board who are traditionalists when it comes to dog training, and I am not in judgement of it, it is just not my cuppa tea. I am a fan of operant conditioning instead.

I also do not hit my children, they have never been hit, and yet are calm, respectful, well behaved boys. Just the way I like to do things, and I always remember there are many ways to get to the same place.

So if this resonates with you, you can check out the following resources.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mk5A24PjPxLAR4YRUMkejKg.jpg

For many outdoor enthusiasts and dog owners, hunting for sport or competing in field trials looks like a fun activity to enjoy with their dogs—but the traditional techniques for training great "gun dogs" involve shock collars, ear pinching, and other force-based methods, which can turn off even the most macho enthusiasts. But what if those methods weren't needed?
They're not, say Jim Barry, Mary Emmen, and Susan Smith, authors of Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training (http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary/17#term206) for Sporting Breeds. This brand-new book is a complete explanation of training gun dogs without using threats, punishment (http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary/17#term244), or force while achieving top levels of fluency and reliability in the field. The authors know the demands of the sport and the nature of the dogs involved, and they understand the ins and outs of applied behavioral science, too. Their techniques apply to working with all types of gun dogs—pointers, setters, retrievers, and spaniels.



www.clickertraining.com


If you own – or just love – the sporting breeds, we need your voice. While most every other dog training niche is making strides into positive reinforcement training, gun dog training remains firmly entrenched in compulsory methods, in which pain or discomfort is inflicted upon a dog until it complies, or harsh punishment is given for non-compliance.


There is a severe lack of understanding in the gun dog training community regarding the potential of positive reinforcement training. The Positive Gun Dog Association is dedicated to making current state-of-the-art dog training knowledge and research available


http://www.positivegundogassociation.com/

[Rackem]

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/981

This is how I feel when I am faced with a lot of gun dog trainers, they really seem to be somewhat hostile to operant conditioning...Blazing a New Trail: Training Gun Dogs

By Aaron Clayton on 01/01/2007

Editor's note: In Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?item=pogundo) co-authors Jim Barry, CPDT, CDBC, Mary Emmen, MA, and Susan Smith, CTC, CPDT, CDBC, have written the first complete all-positive training guide for hunting dogs in the US. In combination with the excellent book for the UK hunter, Clicker Gun Dog (http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?item=clickergundog), authored by Helen Phillips, there are now great resources for both sides of the Atlantic; definitive guides for outdoor sports enthusiasts to rely on in raising top gun dogs.

Disquieting quiet It's early morning. Out in the marsh, surrounded by silence, except for the occasional rustle of the reeds and the swish of legs and paws in the water, it's quiet. And yet it's disquieting. At least it is for the close observer of hunting traditions, for we're the only hunting team out here without an electronic remote trainer. And everyone notices.



That's how I imagine it feels for the authors of Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds. It's never easy deciding to be very publicly different. When the rest of the country is using electronic collars, you know that saying you can raise a great hunting dog without a single shock is going to attract some less than flattering attention along with the mildly curious questions and heartfelt praise. (See "On Being a Change Maker (http://www.clickertraining.com/node/157).")
But that's exactly the trail that the trio of authors behind Positive Gun Dogs (PGD) have decided to travel. So I wanted to travel it with them. I wondered how this new book came to be. Are the authors more excited or afraid? What's the future they see for clicker training in the field of hunting? And why should someone who's been successful using an e-collar even consider trading in his remote for a clicker?
The long and windy road This is not a nouveau topic. Dogs have assisted humans in hunting for sport since the Middle Ages. People that breed, raise, train, and work with hunting dogs are committed and passionate. The basic practices that have been employed to train hunting dogs are almost as old as the tradition of assisted hunting itself. It's these deep-rooted traditions, lore, and, more recently, the marketing deluge by electronic collar manufacturers that keep the majority of gun dog trainers reliant on practices that involve using force to achieve reliable and fluent behaviors in the field. So for a long time, nothing changed. But neither was anything truly different offered. The gun dog training history road is really one long, no-exit highway leading to the promised town of "trained gun dogs." All along the way, as the road winds through time, you can see the billboards advertising the newest way to train using force.
Of hitchhikers and road builders Onto this road, like hitchhikers, comes a trio. Two are women. All are travel savvy. They'd rather walk than get in a car they felt was unsafe. They're steeped in the methods of clicker training. Collectively, they're long students of Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Bob Bailey, Morgan Spector, and Carole Peeler. They are internet savvy, too. They comfortable creating community and connections in the ether of discussion lists. They share something else. They like training gun dogs.
The authors meet on the PositiveGunDogs Yahoo Group discussion list, which Susan and Mary founded after recognizing that positive gun dog trainers, like themselves, needed an oasis. Jim was soon an active member, and before long the three trainers began working on Positive Gun Dogs in response to list members' frequent pleas for a well-developed resource—a guide that wouldn't promote coercion and fear as training tools. Before long they've done something that for centuries hasn't been done. They create a true exit off that highway with a well-marked supporting road, to boot. They're no longer hitchhikers. They're a boy- and girl-scout construction crew. But will people take it? Will it lead them to the same town? Will their friends get lost along the way?


Navigating the new trail While every training specialty has its own challenges, Jim says that in gun dog training there are three specific issues that stand out: "The first is that the tasks are inherently very demanding, both physically and mentally. They may involve working in difficult terrain and nasty weather for long periods of time, searching for game that is hidden in deep cover. Dogs may have to swim long distances, climb banks, and jump fences. And all of this must be done while being attentive to the handler and the goals. The second challenge is that much of the work is done at great distance. In higher level retriever tests, for examples, multiple retrieves at distances of hundreds of yards are not uncommon. Finally, in field work, there are many opportunities for dogs to engage in inherently rewarding behaviors, such as chasing game or following scents that do not coincide with the handler's desires."
Because of these complexities, Jim and his co-authors had to think creatively not only about basic training methods, but also how to organize training and the sequence in which various skills are introduced. And by its early reviews, Positive Gun Dogs succeeds. It presents this essential information clearly and accessibly, with ample illustrations, diagrams, and pictures.
Testing waters, winning titles It is the authors' hope that this new book will encourage traditional gun dog trainers to test the waters of positive methods. Mary believes that clicker training has a bright future in the field of hunting. "Many people who come through my Good Manners classes with hunting dogs ask about classes for gun dogs using similar methodology. I believe that the market is moving in that direction because so many more people are starting their dogs out that way, and don't want to flip-flop to traditional methods for the hunting skills. I think the sheer economics of it will help clicker training gain ground."
Susan shares Mary's enthusiasm, but adds a stipulation. "As with all traditional areas of training, it will take time to demonstrate that clicker training is an effective means of training animals to the highest level. One problem I foresee is the overall philosophy of clicker trainers. We tend to be training as much for the fun of it as the end goal—serious field competitors, while also training for the fun of it, do keep the main prize in the forefront of their minds. The criticism is that until clicker trained dogs are winning titles, it will not be taken seriously. I feel this is a valid point—what we need are clicker trainers who are highly competitive to go out there and start winning!"
"Some of the gains will come naturally," says Jim, "as clicker trained dogs appear at tests and trials in greater numbers. There is another positive development that will help to spur interest, and that is the organization of a new Gundog Club based in England that provides a new venue for people who want to train gundogs in a systematic and humane manner. The club has a six-level award system that fits very nicely with the clicker training method, and the first several awards can be gained by working with dummies rather than birds. We think that, between the book and the new award system, there is a great potential to draw new participants into field sports because they can now get tangible recognition for their accomplishments using positive training methods and without actually having to hunt or witness birds being hunted, as is currently the case with US tests and trials."
Standing out Hunting for sport is widely dominated by traditional trainers. Sometimes being the minority all-positive trainer is difficult. "It can be a bit daunting to be the only person at a test with a clicker on his lanyard," says Jim. "On the other hand, the positive gun dog training group is a rapidly growing minority, as evidenced by the fact that there are several hundred members on the PositiveGunDogs discussion list. Clicker trained dogs are beginning to achieve titles in hunt tests and the method is gaining greater acceptance on internet forums, especially those from Great Britain. So we are hopeful that the balance will eventually shift more toward positive methods, as it has in other canine activities."
Susan isn't bothered by standing out. "I don't find it difficult. I believe that philosophies change as society is ready. I feel lucky and privileged to be in the forefront of this movement; however, I understand the resistance traditional trainers have to new methods. After all, they've been successfully training dogs for many years, and don't see the need to change. I believe that the market will dictate methodology. As we become more sophisticated in our understanding of behavior and as our companion animals become more a part of our families, we will want gentler methods."
Comforting quiet I feel now like I've been down this road, a bit. I can see around the corners, past the big oak and beyond the brush. When I imagine the authors in the reeds now, I don't see them alone. I see them joined by lot of other hunting teams and, to my delight, lots of them are working clicker trained gun dogs in the field. Everyone's having fun and comparing titles.
I like this sport.

[pnbrock]

I agree that someone who doesn't know the proper use of a conditioning collar can be damaging. Hudson got knicked for 3- hunts possibly only 4 times. Where the buzzer sends a solid message his collar his not set to nuclear !!

[Jimbo]

Feb. is a great time to start a new pup, lots of things to teach in the evenings in the house.

Kasomor, Bopper, Foxton, Jimsue, ... Lots of trainers with credentials here.

Don't be afraid of tradititional training, it's more about how you apply the lessons.

Rackem, that's an outrageous hijack.

[Rackem]

How is it a hijack???? As I said, I am not against traditional training, but it is good to know there are alternatives for people if that is what they want.

Many ways to get to the same place.

[Rackem]

This is the request from the OP
info on training him right for duck hunting and were to start

So information on training books and websites is in line with that request.

[Big Lew]

If you have the opportunity to watch a qualified trainer put his/her pups through their course, do it. If the pups seem to enjoy the training experience, and are enthusiastic and raring to go for more, that's what you want. If that trainer is using modern, non-forceful or pain-related deterrents to get their required results that's even better. I started training labs for hunting and trials at age 19 when forceful traditional training was the accepted method. Like many others, I got very good results while maintaining the dog's exuberance and keenness for retrieving. I also enjoyed the tremendous companionship of a thoroughly devoted buddy and partner when hunting or traveling in the outdoors. Times change...the young lab I'm training now is doing very well with his training beginning with treats and tapering them off as he progresses, replacing the treats with praise and affection. I haven't used the old methods of physical enforcement, and if I had been able to acquire this fellow when he was a little puppy, I'm very convinced that he would turn out to be as good, if not better, than that original exceptional dog, and in far less time.

[FirePower]

Feb. is a great time to start a new pup, lots of things to teach in the evenings in the house.

Kasomor, Bopper, Foxton, Jimsue, ... Lots of trainers with credentials here.

Don't be afraid of tradititional training, it's more about how you apply the lessons.

Rackem, that's an outrageous hijack.

Good advice, there is decades of experience in that list, if you want reliable help stick with the trainers who have a proven track record. I had Foxton put a finish on my latest spaniel while I was recovering from surgery, I couldn't be happoer with the results, the others mentioned are a wealth of information as well.

[Rackem]

As I said, Jim Fox knows his dogs, and I am not saying there is anything wrong with traditional training.

[Big Lew]

"I am not saying there is anything wrong with traditional training."
I have to agree with you because of the results I got with my first dog....but having said that, a lot depends on the dog itself. Using forceful methods doesn't work that well with timid, intelligent, or high strung dogs as well as does treats, kindness, encouragement, and reinforcing praise. Very dear friends of mine are 'agility' trainers. They currently have 5 border collies, 4 of them in competition, one has earned his 'gold standard'. These friends hold seminars as well as train many others. They use treats as the basis to their training and their results are pronominal. Not only are these dogs fantastically obedient, they actually shake and tremble with excitement in anticipation to perform or do their handlers bidding. Border collies are very sensitive and a mere scolding is often more traumatic to them then physical force is to other breeds. The only physical discipline I've seen with these dogs was with the 'alpha male' when he was getting too aggressive with other dogs. The owner merely contained him, pushing him to the ground by leaning on him, and held him there until he yielded his position to the owner. No hitting, 'zapping', or other physical force was used or needed.

[Rackem]

Yes Tucker, my BFs lab, is very sensitive...

[Foxton Gundogs]

Ok you guys I've tried to stay out of this but who pray tell says traditional = force or cruel. The point of collars are not to "abuse" a dog or be mean to it it is a way to rach out and "touch" them when you can't. "Force" breaking is a way to instill a discipline fetch/hold in a dog not have it retrieve how and when it suits them. A bit of discipline never hurt a dog and there is a huge difference between discipline and cruelty. My dogs have all ben trained "traditional" if you will, but they all love their work and me they look forward to training and not one ever has a tail still through a session. They live to work and to please me because they want to not because of "fear". I suppose it depends on what you will accept from your dog but to ensure they are reliable there must be training and training involves reward AND consiquences. I have a friend who brings his dog to me every year to correct his bad habits. a month and he is behaving perfectly but within a couple of weeks after being returned he slips back into his old habits of dropping birds taking a tour of the entire marsh before returning to the blind. This dog positively loves his owner and hunts because he loves to hunt but he also knows there is no consequence for doing it his way how he wants and that it me is unacceptable of a trained dog.

[branthunter]

So if I give my 11 mo. old black lab a cooky when she comes back from chasing a rooster 200 yds. away through the Alberta prairie grass before putting him up will that get the message through to her how unhappy I am with her and that she just did a no-no?

[Big Lew]

"A bit of discipline never hurt a dog and there is a huge difference between discipline and cruelty.The point of collars are not to "abuse" a dog or be mean to it, it is a way to reach out and "touch" them when you can't.

"This dog positively loves his owner and hunts because he loves to hunt but he also knows there is no consequence for doing it his way how he wants and that it me is unacceptable of a trained dog."

Totally agree with you on both statements.
First, by 'traditional' I meant standard acceptable methods which also included physical enforcement, including cruelty. As an example, tying a rope to a choke chain and reefing the dog off his feet when yelling 'stop'. Using the same method when calling the dog in. Physically beating obedience into it.
I also use the electric collar, as well as do the 'agility' people, but very seldom, and only set high enough to get his attention, not high enough that he yelps in pain. It is a far safer and more humane method than the rope.
Also, any animal owner must be consistent and not allow an animal to 'do as he pleases', or to think they are the dominant alpha, or they will lose effective control.
When I was training my 'endurance' horse, I always made it go through difficult situations or water and mud holes rather than allowing her to choose to go around. By being consistent in her training, and choosing spots where she wouldn't get hurt, she eventually would go anywhere I asked her to, off steep banks into rivers, slide down steep banks on her butt, walk along very narrow ledges and raised curbing, go through tricky, windy pathways while pulling a travois, even chase black bears, because we built up a mutual trust between us.

[Rackem]

Ok you guys I've tried to stay out of this but who pray tell says traditional = force or cruel. The point of collars are not to "abuse" a dog or be mean to it it is a way to reach out and "touch" them when you can't. "Force" breaking is a way to instill a discipline fetch/hold in a dog not have it retrieve how and when it suits them. A bit of discipline never hurt a dog and there is a huge difference between discipline and cruelty. My dogs have all been trained "traditional" if you will, but they all love their work and me they look forward to training and not one ever has a tail still through a session. They live to work and to please me because they want to not because of "fear". I suppose it depends on what you will accept from your dog but to ensure they are reliable there must be training and training involves reward AND consequences. I have a friend who brings his dog to me every year to correct his bad habits. a month and he is behaving perfectly but within a couple of weeks after being returned he slips back into his old habits of dropping birds taking a tour of the entire marsh before returning to the blind. This dog positively loves his owner and hunts because he loves to hunt but he also knows there is no consequence for doing it his way how he wants and that it me is unacceptable of a trained dog.

Jim not one person said traditional training was cruel or abusive, unless I missed a post, but I went over it several times.

Yes E-collars are a way to reach out and touch a dog when you can't, but there are other roads to get the same result. Choice is great.

Force breaking is one tool, there are others. Spanking your kids is a tool, but I choose not to use that tool.

Force breaking is using fear of pain to achieve the desired behaviour, just like spanking your kid. The dog will not fear you forever, but will fear the pinch or squeeze or whatever. This is a negative reinforcer.

Discipline never hurt dog or man. Discipline can come in other forms such as ending a play time. Not getting a reward. Turning your back.

Reward and consequence can be taught without the use of force or pain, if you so choose it. Or you can choose it if that is how you like to train. It works and is proven.

[FirePower]

Jim not one person said traditional training was cruel or abusive, unless I missed a post, but I went over it several times.

Yes E-collars are a way to reach out and touch a dog when you can't, but there are other roads to get the same result. Choice is great.

Force breaking is one tool, there are others. Spanking your kids is a tool, but I choose not to use that tool.

Force breaking is using fear of pain to achieve the desired behaviour, just like spanking your kid. The dog will not fear you forever, but will fear the pinch or squeeze or whatever. This is a negative reinforcer.

Discipline never hurt dog or man. Discipline can come in other forms such as ending a play time. Not getting a reward. Turning your back.

Reward and consequence can be taught without the use of force or pain, if you so choose it. Or you can choose it if that is how you like to train. It works and is proven.

So would you please explain how this is accomplished for us less knowlagable. Dogs live in the here and now to correct a dog effectively means doing so when the miss step happens, that is to say imediately, not when you can later on. As Branthunter noted you can not disipline your dog when it returns to you after doing wrong it just will not get it. I am sincerely currious what you think the acceptable alternitive correction is when your dog is 100 yards out and doing wrong, because after a life time around gundogs I do not see it. You also say there is no equating treditional with cruel yet Big Lew clearly states by treditional he ment standard which includes physical enforcement, including cruelty. As far as jerking a dog off its feet with a choke chain or beating it, let me assure you Lew there is nothing standard or treditional about those methods. I once witnessed my Da, who was an old country trainer and kennel master and as treditional as one gets, knock a man to the ground for beating his dog so please do not lump treditionalist trainers, as you put it, with idiots.

[Rackem]

Buy the book or check it out in the library. I have used operant conditioning very successfully for many years, and I am happy with it. I have also used traditional training and a combination of both.

This training method poses no threat to anyone, so I am not sure why so much energy is directed against it. Like a lot of new things I guess first resistance...

I missed that comment, I am sorry. In any case, I don't believe it to be cruel, just like I don't believe spanking to be cruel.

Ask yourself this. How can a trainer working with a dolphin in the open sea consistently get the animal to perform on command? Do you think that you can force a dolphin to do anything? Yet these animals will perform with great joy. The same with sea lions. Dogs are no different.

Or take a less intelligent animal, say a fish or a chicken. These animals can be trained by operant conditioning too, and it would be silly to try and force them to do anything.

The key is foundational training. If you check out the great agility dogs, many of them are entirely trained via operant conditioning.

Also, ask yourself, what did the Scottish shepherds do with their border collies prior to the advent of e-collars? How did they get these dogs to work as if they could read the shepherds mind? Keep in mind border collies are extremely sensitive dogs.

[Rackem]

So if I give my 11 mo. old black lab a cooky when she comes back from chasing a rooster 200 yds. away through the Alberta prairie grass before putting him up will that get the message through to her how unhappy I am with her and that she just did a no-no?

You never want to punish a dog that comes to you or it will stop coming to you. You would have to go back to foundational training.

[Big Lew]

"You never want to punish a dog that comes to you or it will stop coming to you."

Could never understand that concept....dog doesn't do you bidding, especially quickly coming to your command, so when it does return, you hang a beating on it.:confused:

[labguy]

Many ways to get to the same place.

Not true. Positive only methods of training have been around a long time. There has not been more than one or two retrievers in recent history (to my knowlege) that has ever (and I mean ever) reached the highest competative levels with positive only methods.

Today's modern training has evolved to the point where (to get the most out of a dog) the trainer will use a combination of positive training, force based training and aversives.

I have read and admired many of your comments on different threads on this site. You are obviously a thoughful, educated and articulate person.........................here comes the "but" ..................but to use the term "shock collar" shows a lack of understanding of modern dog training methods.

Todays well trained retriever using modern e collar methodogy (and I'm only talking retrievers here) will literally stuff their heads into the collar when you bring it out because they have such a positive association with it. They run hard and happy with gusto and enthusiasm and will accomplish complex tasks happily that most people would find astounding.

I agree with you that years ago, when the first e collar came out, some trainers abused their dogs with them but these same trainers were the ones who would use chains, whips, rat shot and whatever else was available to them.

This is not the case today. While there are still some who are living in the dark ages and continue to punish dogs with those collars, most modern training with e collars is the most effective, efficient, humane and fair way to achieve desired results bar none if used properly.

I respect your viewpoint on this subject and believe that positive only training has it's place as part of a complete training program. However, until you have trained multiple dogs to the highest possible level using positive only methods (which has not happened to date) it won't garner much of a following from the people who spend their lives devoted to getting the best out of these amazing animals.

If you are at all interested in educating yourself further about this I would welcome the opportunity but not via the internet.

And as a side note, it is just as easy to screw up a dog using positive only methods as it is using an e collar if the trainer doesn't know what they are doing. Poor timing, nagging, and a host of other bad training techniques will cause confusion for the animal thus leading to loss of momentum when the people using these methods have a limited understanding of canine behaviors.

[Rackem]

So you are saying that your way is the only way. Sorry I disagree.

As I have stated, I have used traditional, operant conditioning, and a combination of both. I have also used e-collars and have never called them "shock" collars. I now believe that I can, if I so choose, train a dog to the level I need it to be at, without an e-collar.

I never said dogs don't enjoy an e-collar. I said I do not want to use one. This is a free country and I do not have to use one if I do not want to.

I agree e-collars have been very effective in many training scenarios, and have used them myself in the past, they are effective, fast and safe. I prefer now, not to use that form of training tool.

I have field trialed dogs with the combined training. Now, I would like to attempt the same thing with only operant conditioning, some traditional training, and no e-collar. Not sure why this is a problem for people. If you want to use whatever you like as long as it is not cruel, I would not bother you about it.

Just like if you spank your kids, I would not bat an eyelash. That is your business. I choose not to spank mine, because I have found other ways to raise respectful children that are in line with my personal values. I do not believe spanking is wrong or cruel. Just not the way I roll.

Anyone can screw up a dog using any method.

Given any thought to dolphins?

[labguy]

As the old cowboy said : :???:

"There are two theories to arguing with a woman.................and neither one of them work.":wink:

[Rackem]

And just as an FYI, most of the top gun dogs in the UK are trained using no e-collar and no forced retrieves. They primarily use operant conditioning. You go ahead and use whatever methods you like. I like a challenge, and I choose this format, not to be superior in any way, but because I like it. I find it mentally stimulating, to figure out how to break a behaviour down into tiny steps and then get the dog to perform without coercion, but because he is thinking and paying attention. Here is a very cool article by a man with a lot of gun dog experience http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php

[Rackem]

As the old cowboy said : :???: "There are two theories to arguing with a woman.................and neither one of them work.":wink: LOL and as my granny said about my grandpa, "You can't tell a dill pickle nuthin!"

[adriaticum]

As the old cowboy said : :???:

"There are two theories to arguing with a woman.................and neither one of them work.":wink:

labguy = smart guy.

[Cdn-Redneck]

I have been using Mike Lardy total retriever training video series along with help and advice from Kasomor. My pup is coming along just fine. The Lardy dvd's are easy to follow and make the process go fairly smoothly. I have my dog e collar trained and force fetched. When the e collar comes out she puts her head right in and is ready to go. She is only 14 months and going into her first season of hunting.

http://www.totalretriever.com

[Jimbo]

Would be good to hear from the OP again.

What level of training are you looking for ? Have a breeder picked out yet ?

Gotta love how a simple question can start a 3 page thread.

[Cookie1965]

Holy crap Racket is nearly as smart as my wife, just ask her :-?

[Rackem]

I have been using Mike Lardy total retriever training video series along with help and advice from Kasomor. My pup is coming along just fine. The Lardy dvd's are easy to follow and make the process go fairly smoothly. I have my dog e collar trained and force fetched. When the e collar comes out she puts her head right in and is ready to go. She is only 14 months and going into her first season of hunting.

http://www.totalretriever.com

Good job! looks like you are doing the right thing judging by her attitude!

[Rackem]

Holy crap Racket is nearly as smart as my wife, just ask her :-?

Smart has nothing to do with it. I didn't invent it. I learned from others. I don't know why so much energy is devoted to opposing something good.

I learned the way my grandpa taught me at first, which was harsh. Then I learned a milder way from Harvey Justice in Williams Lake. Then I learned about Karen Pryor and her work with dolphins. I read a lot. I used the new skills in training personal protection dogs, and in gun dogs. No harm to me or my dogs, we all had fun and did well.

[Rackem]

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php
Marine mammals and national defense
A great example of the power of positive training is the US Navy's Marine Mammal Program. This program has been in operation since the early 1950s and has developed many of the major applications and training protocols of operant conditioning and reward training. Many of today's marine mammal trainers got their start and early training in the Navy program.


A look at a typical training scenario would see a small boat heading out to the open ocean. In the back of the boat is a small pool containing a dolphin. When the boat reaches its patrol area, it stops. The trainer opens a gate and releases the dolphin to search. The dolphin who has a built in biologic sonar system, proceeds to hunt for tethered or moored mines. His search might extend as deep as 500 feet, where it is very dark, very cold, and very high pressure. During his search, the dophin is swimming around and through schools of fish, which are his food and which constitute his training rewards.


When the dolphin detects a mine, he swims back up to the boat, and indicates the presence of a mine. The handler then hands the dolphin a plastic tab to hold in his mouth. To the tab is cabled a marking device which has jaws that will clamp to the mine cable. The dolphin then swims back down to the mine and attaches the marking device to the mine cable. Then he returns to the boat. The mine will be removed or destroyed by a human diver.
This trained dolphin behavior is difficult and it is complex. It is carried out by the dolphin who is out of sight and beyond communication with his trainer. Additionally the dolphin is swimming through schools of fish while performing the behavior. The dolphin's trained behaviors are more difficult and more complex than are the behaviors we ask of gundogs. If operant conditioning works so well on dolphins, then certainly it will work well on gundog behaviors. The prerequisite is to learn the principles and applications of operant conditioning as it applies to training gundog behaviors.

[FirePower]

Buy the book or check it out in the library. I have used operant conditioning very successfully for many years, and I am happy with it. I have also used traditional training and a combination of both.

This training method poses no threat to anyone, so I am not sure why so much energy is directed against it. Like a lot of new things I guess first resistance...

I missed that comment, I am sorry. In any case, I don't believe it to be cruel, just like I don't believe spanking to be cruel.

Ask yourself this. How can a trainer working with a dolphin in the open sea consistently get the animal to perform on command? Do you think that you can force a dolphin to do anything? Yet these animals will perform with great joy. The same with sea lions. Dogs are no different.

Or take a less intelligent animal, say a fish or a chicken. These animals can be trained by operant conditioning too, and it would be silly to try and force them to do anything.

The key is foundational training. If you check out the great agility dogs, many of them are entirely trained via operant conditioning.

Also, ask yourself, what did the Scottish shepherds do with their border collies prior to the advent of e-collars? How did they get these dogs to work as if they could read the shepherds mind? Keep in mind border collies are extremely sensitive dogs.

Actually I do not have to ask myself as I was raised in The Yorkshire Dales and some of my earliest mentors in the dog world were the Sheherds you speak of. They like gundog trainers would get off their duffs hustle themselves out to the dog where it did wrong and shake it up, not beat it but give it a sound shaking and scolding right there on the spot. This worked well but was much harder on the handler than the dog after runing the 100 yard dash a number of times. As far as temperment goes, believe me a collie is no where near as soft as a spaniel. As for trainers not using Ecollars in the UK I am on a personal basis with a number of the top spaniel men there and although the training method does vary somewhat, they have welcomed the advent of the collar in their methods.

[labguy]

And just as an FYI, most of the top gun dogs in the UK are trained using no e-collar and no forced retrieves. They primarily use operant conditioning. You go ahead and use whatever methods you like. I like a challenge, and I choose this format, not to be superior in any way, but because I like it. I find it mentally stimulating, to figure out how to break a behaviour down into tiny steps and then get the dog to perform without coercion, but because he is thinking and paying attention. Here is a very cool article by a man with a lot of gun dog experience http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php

Robert Milner is a very good man and a very good dog trainer however, he refuses to compete with his dogs in modern field events. As a result, he is not as well regarded as he might be if he at least attempted to prove that his methods could train retrievers to the higher levels.

Gun dog training and competative retriever training are two entirely different pursuits. If you want a dog to pick up a single duck and bring it back you probably won't have to do much training with a labrador or Golden Retreiver at all, as most are genetically predisposed to retrieve pretty well without much human intervention. All those top UK dogs who are trained with no e collar and operant conditioning are only expected to mark and retreiver one bird at a time...........................totally different game over there than here.

If you want a dog who is capable of so much more (muliple marks up to 3 or 4 hundred yards across some very nasty terrain and blind retrieves with multiple entries and exits through techical waters) then you need to do a bit (read quite a bit) more training which requires the most up to date and proven methods available.........................which, so far, has only been accomplished with modern e collar methods.

This is the crux of what is (yet again) so pointless about this discussion.

When positive only training has been proven to accomplish the same thing or more, then credible dog trainers will start to pay more attention. Until then, it's only unproven theory.

[Rackem]

Operant conditioning has been proven by dolphins.

[labguy]

Operant conditioning has been proven by dolphins.

Yes it has and it works to a point with all animals. Unfortunately dogs and dolphins don't operate on the same wave length.

You make some very valid points and operant conditioning, positive training and clicker training are great tools. I hope that one day these methods become more mainstream as the program evolves.

The goal of all dog training should be to make it as easy as possible for the animal to learn. Anything less is not good dog training.

We owe it to these amazing creatures to be the best trainers we can be.

[fudge]

I have a breeder picked and they breed high quality gun dogs and they are well known but I was hoping to get it done in the lower main land as kamloops is far. As far as level I just was a good bird dog and one that is safe. Im not looking to get into field trials. hope that will help gt me to were I need to be

[labguy]

I have a breeder picked and they breed high quality gun dogs and they are well known but I was hoping to get it done in the lower main land as kamloops is far. As far as level I just was a good bird dog and one that is safe. Im not looking to get into field trials. hope that will help gt me to were I need to be

Sorry this got off topic. The first 3 or 4 responses on page one are a good place to start.

I would also suggest you get Bill Hillman's. "Training a Retriever Puppy". This will give you and your puppy the tools to develop a strong foundation starting from the time he first comes home. Hillman's methods are mostly positive only which work very well with young dogs.

Don't discount training to higher levels. The dogs love the work and you just might too.....Good luck.

[Rackem]

Yes it has and it works to a point with all animals. Unfortunately dogs and dolphins don't operate on the same wave length.

You make some very valid points and operant conditioning, positive training and clicker training are great tools. I hope that one day these methods become more mainstream as the program evolves.

The goal of all dog training should be to make it as easy as possible for the animal to learn. Anything less is not good dog training.

We owe it to these amazing creatures to be the best trainers we can be.

I agree 100%. That is why I am so interested in trying this method, because I want to be the best I can be. I know that you all have a lot more experience than me, and I value your input a lot.

There is no harm in me trying it, and if I end up training a dog to the field trial level with this method great, if not I will still have a dog that retrieves ducks for me. I enjoy the process, I find it very fun.

The thing is it will take people trying this to get to the highest levels in gun dogs. It has already happened in other dog sports, such as agility.



If you want a dog who is capable of so much more (multiple marks up to 3 or 4 hundred yards across some very nasty terrain and blind retrieves with multiple entries and exits through technical waters) then you need to do a bit (read quite a bit) more training which requires the most up to date and proven methods available.........................which, so far, has only been accomplished with modern e collar methods.

Was this never accomplished prior to the advent of the e-collar? I am asking because I don't know.


When positive only training has been proven to accomplish the same thing or more, then credible dog trainers will start to pay more attention. Until then, it's only unproven theory.

And to be proven, people have to try it. UK may be easier, but I do think it is possible even with the more rigorous standards here.

My dogs are not registered with the CKC, as they are rescues, can you tell me if non registered dogs can compete?

If a person was able to demonstrate that their dog could perform at the field trail level, but not title the dog, would that be sufficient proof? Or would a person have to purchase a CKC registered dog and start with that?


When positive only training has been proven to accomplish the same thing or more, then credible dog trainers will start to pay more attention. Until then, it's only unproven theory.

I am sorry that you feel it pointless, I really enjoy your feedback and think that you could teach me a lot of things.

That is very cool that you are from the Yorkshire Dales, James Herriot was one of my heros as a child. My family lives just North of that, in Wigton, Dumfries, and Galloway, Scotland. That is where I met a shepherd who told me that he never used e-collars or shook his dogs. He was a big BF Skinner fan too.

I am not saying that no one in the UK uses an e-collar, I am saying that many don't and have at least success by some people's standards.

Anyway I thank you sir, for your feedback and information. I think you are a very good resource for any new dog owner.

I still want to try it, what is the worst that can happen? I don't get a field trial champion but still have a dog that retrieves. I have fun trying. I don't know why people don't want me to try it.

[BiG Boar]

I wonder if it would be cruel to take my dolphin in a corn stubble field. Not to mention, the retrieves would have to be very short.

[Rackem]

i wonder if it would be cruel to take my dolphin in a corn stubble field. Not to mention, the retrieves would have to be very short.
:) :) :) :) lol!

[Foxton Gundogs]

Along with "Training a Retriever Puppy" as Labguy suggested I would also say, if you plan to hunt upland with your dog as well, pick up the DVD "Gundog Training Spaniels" with Kenneth C Roebuck. Different breed, same procedure and goal, great training aid. Good Luck.

http://www.lcsupply.com/Gun-Dog-Training-Spaniels/productinfo/D15/

[hotload]

Just my 2 cents. In my opinion much can be done with a dog after the ever important bond and time spent learning that particular personality. Learn your dog and learn the words, repetition,consistency,patience,and calmness. Be truthful and honest to your dog. I feel once you know your dog only then can you know how far to go with your levels of force,whether it be verbal, physical,e collar or ear pinch, and timing on all these is of the utmost importance. You must know how far you can go with your dog before it will shut down. Slow methodical step by step training. Don't be afraid to show your dog you care, whether it be love or scold. The mother dog will show great tolerance but when it's over, it' over, the pup gets it short and sharp and to the point. I have a Deutsch Drahthaar and have just completed all his testings with trips to Washington,Utah,California, South Dakota,and Germany, and we have succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. I came to figure out the only limitations my dog had was me, and I vowed to hold up my end. The sky is the limit when you learn each other and have formed an unbeatable team. Again, just my 2 cents.......................................

[Jimsue]

I'm only piping in once, you don't want to know how retrievers were trained before the e collar. The field trial game in the States is a high dollar game to play, dogs often sell for $100,000 and up, the top pro trainers earn big money, if a new method came along that was proven to work they would be on it like white on rice.

And my Grandfather in Northern Ireland trained sheep dogs before the e collar, and yes they I can remember them getting a tune up every now and again.

[Rackem]

There you go, E-collars have reduced cruelty in training, which is great.

Variety is the spice of life, and thank goodness this is a free country. New ideas are often opposed, just hard to understand why. They won't be on it like white on rice because it involves a major paradigm shift, which is a painful process because of the cognitive dissonance.

I just happened to meet a shepherd in Scotland who was a fan of BF Skinner I guess. He did not believe in "tune ups". Funny how you attract people of like mind in life.

[labguy]

Just my 2 cents. In my opinion much can be done with a dog after the ever important bond and time spent learning that particular personality. Learn your dog and learn the words, repetition,consistency,patience,and calmness. Be truthful and honest to your dog. I feel once you know your dog only then can you know how far to go with your levels of force,whether it be verbal, physical,e collar or ear pinch, and timing on all these is of the utmost importance. You must know how far you can go with your dog before it will shut down. Slow methodical step by step training. Don't be afraid to show your dog you care, whether it be love or scold. The mother dog will show great tolerance but when it's over, it' over, the pup gets it short and sharp and to the point. I have a Deutsch Drahthaar and have just completed all his testings with trips to Washington,Utah,California, South Dakota,and Germany, and we have succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. I came to figure out the only limitations my dog had was me, and I vowed to hold up my end. The sky is the limit when you learn each other and have formed an unbeatable team. Again, just my 2 cents.......................................

Good post................to achieve the bond you speak of the dog must respect it's person and as you said, it's up to us to hold up our end to gain that respect.

Respect from a dog is gained by setting and maintaining standards at all times, being fair and consistent and by giving the dog the respect it deserves by relating to it on it's level............... as a dog..............not some furry person.

Once the dog knows what those standards are, it becomes confortable in it's world and with it's person and knows what to expect and what is expected of it...............in other words it learns to trust you.

Once that trust and respect is firmly established that amazing bond develops that, until you've experienced it, is almost impossible to describe.

There is no feeling like it in the world than to have the honor of being "in sync" with one of these amazing creatures.

Here is an excerpt from an article written on this. I think it covers the subject nicely.

Written by Grady Istre:

The most beautiful relationship between the dog and human comes after much work and is gained by mutual respect. The bond develops after many months of showing a high standard to the dog and making the dog consistently meet that standard. Soon the dog takes pride in the work and knows when the performance is up to par. Words and emotion interfere with the pride of the dog in correct performance. The bond between dog and handler is almost tangible; it can be compared to dressage in horses; it's communication at the highest level. Although a daily respectful relationship can be attained, only through special work does the handler have the utmost level of communication and it does not last at its peak. The goal is to polish and hone the dogs performance and attain the best possible bond for a specific trial or national competition. The kind of work necessary for this peak level cannot be done over a long period of time without detriment to the dog. Dog's cannot live under a constant pressure (as cannot humans) and there have to breathing spaces throughout training when a certain relaxation can occur.

Gradually, through proper work, the owner will begin to feel the terrific feeling of becoming a team with his eager but responsive animal. Then and only then can the kind of love that is based on respect finally develop.

[Rackem]

Good post................to achieve the bond you speak of the dog must respect it's person and as you said, it's up to us to hold up our end to gain that respect.

Respect from a dog is gained by setting and maintaining standards at all times, being fair and consistent and by giving the dog the respect it deserves by relating to it on it's level............... as a dog..............not some furry person.

Once the dog knows what those standards are, it becomes confortable in it's world and with it's person and knows what to expect and what is expected of it...............in other words it learns to trust you.

Once that trust and respect is firmly established that amazing bond develops that, until you've experienced it, is almost impossible to describe.

There is no feeling like it in the world than to have the honor of being "in sync" with one of these amazing creatures.

Here is an excerpt from an article written on this. I think it covers the subject nicely.

Written by Grady Istre:

The most beautiful relationship between the dog and human comes after much work and is gained by mutual respect. The bond develops after many months of showing a high standard to the dog and making the dog consistently meet that standard. Soon the dog takes pride in the work and knows when the performance is up to par. Words and emotion interfere with the pride of the dog in correct performance. The bond between dog and handler is almost tangible; it can be compared to dressage in horses; it's communication at the highest level. Although a daily respectful relationship can be attained, only through special work does the handler have the utmost level of communication and it does not last at its peak. The goal is to polish and hone the dogs performance and attain the best possible bond for a specific trial or national competition. The kind of work necessary for this peak level cannot be done over a long period of time without detriment to the dog. Dog's cannot live under a constant pressure (as cannot humans) and there have to breathing spaces throughout training when a certain relaxation can occur.

Gradually, through proper work, the owner will begin to feel the terrific feeling of becoming a team with his eager but responsive animal. Then and only then can the kind of love that is based on respect finally develop.



Beautifully said. :)

[Cdn-Redneck]

X2 on Bill Hillman's puppy DVD. It is very informative and works on creating a bond with your dog as well as beginning to have him start to learn how to retrieve with out it being forced upon him or like a job. Your dog will easily learn to love to retrieve.

[bopper]

When reading through the Hunting Dogs forum on this site, I am always amazed by the number of people who offer advice on training, and training methods, without having any first-hand knowledge of the dog, or perhaps more importantly, the owner. A method, procedure, training manual, video or suggestion might be proper for some dogs & owners, but could be the worst possible route to go for others. I have found in my 40 years of professional training experience that it is imperative to have seen and observed both dog and handler before even thinking of offering solutions to training problems.
Please consider spending at least a few days with a recognized pro before embarking on a program with your dog.

[Kasomor]

The Golden Retriever Club of BC will be hosting a "Starting Your Retriever In the Field" Workshop on March 23, 2014 at TNT Kennels in Aldergrove. This workshop was well received last time we did it a few years ago and we have had numerous request to hold one again. The workshop is for retrievers of all ages, pups need to be 12 weeks or older. Starting a dog in field work is basically the same no matter if your goal is a hunting dog or if you plan on competing in Hunt Tests or Working Certificate Tests.

Force fetch and collar conditioning will not be covered at the seminar. It will be lightly touched on.

My own dogs hunt a lot, compete in Hunt Tests and Working Certificate tests as well as competitive obedience.... and dang... they are FF, CC and they are also positively trained with cookies as well. :shock::shock::shock:




http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/GRCBC%20logoThe Golden Retriever Club of B.C. presents…

FIELD WORK – GETTING STARTED!



Come spend a day learning the skills needed for

you and your retriever (all retriever breeds welcome) to get started in this wonderful area of working with your dog.



March 23, 2014 – 9:00am – 3:00pm

$70 Handler with one Dog

$40 to Audit




No refunds will be given. Bitches in season are welcome to attend.

Welcome to a workshop designed to show you how to get your dog started in field work. During this workshop we will cover all the basics… from how to get your dog retrieving, marking, line manners, etc… to the requirements of a Working Certificate Test. Morning discussion session will be held indoors. The afternoon, working with the dogs, will be outdoors.file:///C:\Users\Linda\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.gif


Lunch is included
Your instructors all have many years of experience in this area and realize the importance of making this fun for you and your dog.

The workshop will be held at: TNT Kennels
27624 Watson Road
Aldergrove BC



Bring a chair, pen and paper….BOOTS and RAIN GEAR

This is a RAIN OR Shine event so wear WARM clothes


Questions: Call Linda Moran at 604-824-6757 or email kasomor@shaw.ca

Or Joanne Kinney at zaniri@telus.net




Please fill out and return attached form along with payment to register.
Make cheques payable to British Columbia Golden Retriever Club and mail along with filled out registration form to:
Joanne Kinney
2887 184TH Street
Surrey, B.C. V3S 9V2




Working $70 ______ Audit $40 ______





PARTICIPANTS NAME:


__________________________________________________ ________




ADDRESS:


__________________________________________________ ________




PHONE:


__________________________________________________ ________




EMAIL:


__________________________________________________ ________




BREED & NAME OF DOG:


__________________________________________________ ________




AGE OF DOG:


__________________________________________________ ________

[Kasomor]

There are "pros" in this province who I would not let touch one of my dogs.... nope nope nope. Who "recognizes" them as pro's??

Pick your "pro" or anyone else you care to let touch your dog carefully.

[Big Lew]

There are "pros" in this province who I would not let touch one of my dogs.... nope nope nope. Who "recognizes" them as pro's??

Pick your "pro" or anyone else you care to let touch your dog carefully.

I agree. There are good and bad "pros" in all professions. Dog trainers are no exception. A fellow from my workplace and I bought labs from a noted breeder and trainer many years ago. As we were newbies, we joined the association the breeder/trainer was involved with in order to begin training our dogs for both hunting and trials. It very soon became apparent that he was one of the bad ones even though he had impressive results, winning many awards for both his breeding line, and his dog's performances. We noticed that he had a large graveyard out back of his place and we witnessed him holding one of his best upcoming males up high by the ears and kicking the crap out of him. That was the last time we had anything to do with him, deciding to train with others in the club which resulted in both dogs doing very well in both trials and hunting despite that fellow. This is why I say, pick a pro and watch him work dogs for awhile before committing.

[barklee]

I can personally recommend bcgamebirds. He trained Barklee and she is incredible. She was trained using the Mike Lardy techniques and although as the trainer calls her a hot dog she came home with manners and was still as sweet as ever. She will make 300 yard retrieves across freezing water and she spoons the wife when I am not home. I watched the trainer when I worked with him use every technique from praise and attrition on fearful and timid dogs to the e-collar on strong and forceful dogs, so trying to say just doing it one way is the only way is wrong. You need to train the dog the way that its nature requires. I found bcgamebirds used that technique.
That’s my two sense.