Death Of A Valley

[Ourea]

Here is yet another tale of just how bad the wolf problem.....no, let me rephrase that.....the wolf crisis is getting.

Myself and partners invested in cutting our way into a series of drainages that held some phenomenal elk habitat.
I am a firm believer in hunting for habitat over hunting for animals.
It took a few years of cutting and grub hoeing to get an adequate trail system in so we could access with stock.
There area is very remote and far from any urban center.


We enjoyed years of exceptional elk observation and hunting.

Seldom was there a day when numerous bulls weren't screaming, cows out on the slides undisturbed.
We would look over as many bulls as we could find and then make a play for the one we wanted.

The habitat was so good the elk density was high and with no pressure what-so-ever.
One had to be aware of grizzlies, there was no wolf presence.

I'm not one for posting up pictures of our animals but here are some of the bulls we killed in this area that are hanging in my partners barn.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/WK1_zps01ae32a9.jpg?t=1381526210


http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/WK2_zpsd89509f6.jpg?t=1381526236

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/WK6_zps8a5158bd.jpg?t=1381526313

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/WK3_zpse52aa5a3.jpg?t=1381526511

We took several years off from the area and pursued new ground looking for that elusive 400 bull.
We returned last year cleaning up trail and hanging cams prior to the season.
The change we found was shocking.

[hare_assassin]

Please continue.

[Ourea]

This is what we found.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf2.jpg

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf.jpg

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAG0390.jpg

What we found very few of were these.....
http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/PIC-1.jpg

We were shocked at how few elk we saw that trip compared to the years of plenty prior.

One of our gang returned this year.
He is the hardest "hardcore" hunter I have ever shared the mountains with.
He pounded all the drainages we had cut out for 9 hard days.
Where normally an effort like that would yield seeing 80 - 90 elk....he saw one.
There was no elk sign anywhere.
There was however wolf sign everywhere.

In the span of a few years wolves have annihilated a once thriving and robust herd of elk.
The wolf problem is real....very real.
I am astonished at the speed of devastation they can bring.

[lilhoss]

How do you know the wolves "annihilated a herd of elk". They adapt and move out. Not defending the obvious- wolves being indiscriminant hunters and killers, but the elk will move long distances to avoid the predator issue. Did you find any kill sites? .. Or just low numbers?

[Blainer]

My buddy is on his way home from up North.
He just sent picture, 6 dead wolves on this trip.
Makes a fella smile
Oh ya,5 for 5 on moose

[Stéphane]

No worries,
once they've killed more elk than they should, the wolf population will go down. Then elk population will go up again. It's been like that for millions of years. I think we should be okay.
We have biologists who keeps good records of these population.

Someone has it in his signature than conservation isn't limited to hunters.

[GoatGuy]

4 out of a pack of 15 near the findlay stroked this week.

[Ourea]

How do you know the wolves "annihilated a herd of elk". They adapt and move out. Not defending the obvious- wolves being indiscriminant hunters and killers, but the elk will move long distances to avoid the predator issue. Did you find any kill sites? .. Or just low numbers?

To answer your question lilhoss.........Yes, both.

The Bio's are concerned as well over the sudden increase in wolves and decrease in ungulates in this area.
Funny how that works eh.

I'm sure the wolves are not in the area to howl Kumbaya at the moon and eat granola.
They take a serious toll wherever they go.
Game does not simply move on.....they are hammered in the process.

In this area the prime habitat is few and far between.
Winter range is extremely limited.

[Ltbullken]

A wolf needs 7 pounds of meat per day to successfully breed. Do the math. 15 - 18 deer per year per wolf. A wolf pack of 10 members will eat up to 180 deer per year to survive and reproduce... Kind of a gut check on wolves isn't it?

[6point]

and when I say there is p*ss all for animals in a lot of BC left I get roasted...your story is very similar to mine with several places I know of. People say the animals just go were the wolves arnt..well its pretty hard to find a valley without wolves these days!

[steel_ram]

What happens to the pack when they can't find food? It's a cycle, unless we want to "manage" the wolf population by thinning them to help them get through the mean season. When I took the core course in school a few decades ago, it wasn't just "hunter training". We were taught the fundamentals of wildlife management. Are those same principles of prey, predator population cycles no longer true?

[willyqbc]

We have experienced the same thing in 2 different areas. One an elk area that had very strong elk presence for many years only to show up one year and find nothing but wolf sign. Also just got back from a moose trip where we quadded in to a grass/willow creek valley 1 km long and 10 km long. My partner was in this area last year and the moose tracks were like cattle.....we didn't find a single fresh track this year and all the many game trails in and around the valley were grown over. Quite a difference a year can make. I'm afraid things are just going to get worse until the poisoning program and helicopters are again in the ministries toolbox.JMOChris

[Ourea]

What happens to the pack when they can't find food? It's a cycle, unless we want to "manage" the wolf population by thinning them to help them get through the mean season. When I took the core course in school a few decades ago, it wasn't just "hunter training". We were taught the fundamentals of wildlife management. Are those same principles of prey, predator population cycles no longer true?

steel_ram
The amount of data and reporting on predators has increased exponentially since your basic CORE course a few decades ago.
Understood that there are ebbs and flows in the predator/prey relationship...obvious and very basic stuff.

If one invests in exposing one's self to current information from the ministry and from individuals that are in the field year round .....well... there is a exploding problem with wolves.

Previous wolf strong holds are one thing.
It's another when those areas are showing no decline while non traditional areas are showing an aggressive wolf increase.

Even the Okanagan is having an alarming increase in wolf sightings and encounters.
Say that five years ago and you would get laughed at.

The problem is real and is growing.
There is a predator expansion going on.
Unprecedented.

As a year round bush rat I would not bring this topic to light if I didn't have quantified field experience that is supported by the MOE with their observations.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What happens to the pack when they can't find food? It's a cycle, unless we want to "manage" the wolf population by thinning them to help them get through the mean season. When I took the core course in school a few decades ago, it wasn't just "hunter training". We were taught the fundamentals of wildlife management. Are those same principles of prey, predator population cycles no longer true?

Wolves are highly mobile. Run out of food and move on.

[dana]

Ourea,
Welcome to my world. It can be rather discouraging when you look at areas once full of game and now only a slight shadow is left. I was ringing the wolf bell for years. Many thought I was full of Bs and was only trying to sway hunters away from Clearwater. I watched in disbelief as the Ministry paid trappers gobs of money to live trap wolves so they could put collars on them and turn them back into the wild. All in an effort to get more data they said. As populations ballooned, deer, moose and caribou took major hits. And where are these wolves now? Those same wolves are in your backyard. They ate us out and left because the hunting got too hard. All one has to do is read the last two years of BCOutdoors hunting forecast. The only place named by any Region Managers as having incredibly poor hunting opportunities is the North Thompson. Who is next?

[bridger]

We will have years of low elk numbers.

[dana]

We will have years of low elk numbers.
Elk pops normally rebound faster the moose. How long will it take before we see good moose populations again? Decades!

[bridger]

In 1985 we trailed into the tuchodi river country in 7b for the first time Elk were every where. Looking back on my notes I had 21 five and six point bulls in my spotting scope field of view on one hillside.. Very little wolf sign, no grizz sightings.. Not that way now. Lots of wolf sign, large grizz population. Elk herd down by 60% in my opinion.. Same song across the province.

[GoatGuy]

Ourea,
Welcome to my world. It can be rather discouraging when you look at areas once full of game and now only a slight shadow is left. I was ringing the wolf bell for years. Many thought I was full of Bs and was only trying to sway hunters away from Clearwater. I watched in disbelief as the Ministry paid trappers gobs of money to live trap wolves so they could put collars on them and turn them back into the wild. All in an effort to get more data they said. As populations ballooned, deer, moose and caribou took major hits. And where are these wolves now? Those same wolves are in your backyard. They ate us out and left because the hunting got too hard. All one has to do is read the last two years of BCOutdoors hunting forecast. The only place named by any Region Managers as having incredibly poor hunting opportunities is the North Thompson. Who is next?

It's true, I didn't believe you, but the counts started rolling in and things have pointed downhill in a hurry.

[Sitkaspruce]

What was strange this year was the area we hunted was void of wolves this year.....one set of tracks for a whole week. We usually see tracks in every area we go, with some sightings as well. This year was nada, but we did see a ton of grizz sign, including my up close a personal with a sow and 3 cubs at 12 yards. A trip to the high country showed 7 different grizz in the snow and every area we hunted this year had fresh grizz tracks. Moose numbers were about the same, maybe a few more bulls, but about average, but elk sign was way up.

Cheers

SS

[dana]

It's true, I didn't believe you, but the counts started rolling in and things have pointed downhill in a hurry.
Crazy to see how fast it went into the Shitter too. Just use the two Blue River units as an example. Only 6 or 7 years ago winter counts showed over 400 moose counted between the 2 units. This past winter only 38 were counted. That is a huge drop. Being Limited entry with very conservative tag numbers released and very minor FN hunting, the wolves and only the wolves are to blame. Follow that trend North and South and you see many units that once were absolutely amazing for deer and moose numbers and now just a slight shadow. I'm not an alarmist by any means. I know there are some animals still left and they will slowly rebound, but it certainly does feel like a kick to the nuts to know what we had only a few short years ago is now gone.

[Husky7mm]

Hmm , wolves ..... I recall something about hair and fire .......

[Husky7mm]

What was strange this year was the area we hunted was void of wolves this year.....one set of tracks for a whole week. We usually see tracks in every area we go, with some sightings as well. This year was nada, but we did see a ton of grizz sign, including my up close a personal with a sow and 3 cubs at 12 yards. A trip to the high country showed 7 different grizz in the snow and every area we hunted this year had fresh grizz tracks. Moose numbers were about the same, maybe a few more bulls, but about average, but elk sign was way up.

Cheers

SS
A few recent culls across right over the border might have something to do with that.

[Sofa King]

so, the op has no proof that the wolves killed off the elk in that area, just speculation.
they hadn't been back in there for years, a lot can happen in that time.
maybe other hunters moved in, maybe the Indians wiped them out like they did pike mt., or if it was indeed wolves, maybe they followed that path that he and his buddy cut into the area.

[dana]

Hmm , wolves ..... I recall something about hair and fire .......
I just knew you'd jump in on this one. ;)

[Husky7mm]

so, the op has no proof that the wolves killed off the elk in that area, just speculation.
they hadn't been back in there for years, a lot can happen in that time.
maybe other hunters moved in, maybe the Indians wiped them out like they did pike mt., or if it was indeed wolves, maybe they followed that path that he and his buddy cut into the area.

Once again thanks for nothing.......

[4 point]

Didn't I just hear somewhere there is a proposal to have an unlimited wolf season next year in Reg 3 and or 8?

[Ringo 7MM]

Once again thanks for nothing.......

It's amazing how the guy your talking about, never has anything to say.

[Walking Buffalo]

steel_ram
The amount of data and reporting on predators has increased exponentially since your basic CORE course a few decades ago.
Understood that there are ebbs and flows in the predator/prey relationship...obvious and very basic stuff.

If one invests in exposing one's self to current information from the ministry and from individuals that are in the field year round .....well... there is a exploding problem with wolves.

Previous wolf strong holds are one thing.
It's another when those areas are showing no decline while non traditional areas are showing an aggressive wolf increase.

Even the Okanagan is having an alarming increase in wolf sightings and encounters.
Say that five years ago and you would get laughed at.

The problem is real and is growing.
There is a predator expansion going on.
Unprecedented.

As a year round bush rat I would not bring this topic to light if I didn't have quantified field experience that is supported by the MOE with their observations.


"non traditional areas are showing an aggressive wolf increase."

I doubt there are any Non-traditional areas for wolves in B.C., just areas where serious wolf control was implemented on a regular basis.


"Unprecedented."

The only thing unprecedented is that today's government is not willing to implement effective techniques to produce serious wolf reductions.




We will have years of low elk numbers.

MANY more years than would be expected. Areas of Alberta that experienced major ungulate population collapses 8-9 years ago are still showing no signs of improvement. A problem remains that the remaining herds are too small to have any mortality, and of course the wolves do not completely leave these animals alone....





Crazy to see how fast it went into the Shitter too. Just use the two Blue River units as an example. Only 6 or 7 years ago winter counts showed over 400 moose counted between the 2 units. This past winter only 38 were counted. That is a huge drop. Being Limited entry with very conservative tag numbers released and very minor FN hunting, the wolves and only the wolves are to blame. Follow that trend North and South and you see many units that once were absolutely amazing for deer and moose numbers and now just a slight shadow. I'm not an alarmist by any means. I know there are some animals still left and they will slowly rebound, but it certainly does feel like a kick to the nuts to know what we had only a few short years ago is now gone.

These population counts mirror results in Alberta where wolves have decimated moose and elk populations. The bottom seems to be about 10% of pre-wolf populations.

[coach]

so, the op has no proof that the wolves killed off the elk in that area, just speculation.
they hadn't been back in there for years, a lot can happen in that time.
maybe other hunters moved in, maybe the Indians wiped them out like they did pike mt., or if it was indeed wolves, maybe they followed that path that he and his buddy cut into the area.

How much longer do we have to put up with you on this site?

[Sitkaspruce]

A few recent culls across right over the border might have something to do with that.

?????

We were over 250k from the border, which would be a looooong way for any wolf cull to be effective. I was also not aware that Alberta did a cull???

I think I am also a very very looooong way from where you think I hunted.

Cheers

SS

[Sitkaspruce]

How much longer do we have to put up with you on this site?

Coach, put him on your blocked list and you will not read any more of his anti hunting drivel......I still believe he is an anti and just talks the talk to be "One of the guys".......

Cheers

SS

[coach]

Coach, put him on your blocked list and you will not read any more of his anti hunting drivel......I still believe he is an anti and just talks the talk to be "One of the guys".......

Cheers

SS

With the last name, Suzuki, it does make me wonder..:confused:

[Husky7mm]

?????

We were over 250k from the border, which would be a looooong way for any wolf cull to be effective. I was also not aware that Alberta did a cull???

I think I am also a very very looooong way from where you think I hunted.

Cheers

SS
I could walk to FSJ in about 2-3 days from the cull area. Hardly a challenge for a wolf.... True I have no idea where you hunt there but I would not under estimate how far wolves travel is all...

[604redneck]

Coach, put him on your blocked list and you will not read any more of his anti hunting drivel......I still believe he is an anti and just talks the talk to be "One of the guys".......

Cheers

SS
theres a block button on this site???? son of a b***h.....bye duallie and jelvis! actually jelvis is entertaining sometimes

[adriaticum]

Perhaps HBC and the sponsors can put up a wolf hunting contest with some prizes

[Husky7mm]

theres a block button on this site???? son of a b***h.....bye duallie and jelvis! actually jelvis is entertaining sometimes
hey now jelly is one in a million, K

[frenchbar]

jelvis is king...

[coach]

Perhaps HBC and the sponsors can put up a wolf hunting contest with some prizes

The prize is you can do something to help ungulates. Why do we need a contest?

[The Dawg]

Perhaps HBC and the sponsors can put up a wolf hunting contest with some prizes


We are going to be running one on wolftracker this year

[adriaticum]

The prize is you can do something to help ungulates. Why do we need a contest?

It gives a bit more profile to the issue I think.

[coach]

It gives a bit more profile to the issue I think.

It brings negative attention from Duallie and all the other antis. I don't need a contest to motivate me to hunt wolves. It should be the same for the majority of other hunters.

[adriaticum]

Also one thing I am not seeing is people talking about where they see wolves. When it comes to wolf honey hole do tell. Since your wolf honey holes are probably not your ungulate honey holes anymore anyway.
Wolftracker does a good job of that.

[coach]

Good point. That's really what wolf tracker is all about.

[The Dawg]

That is the whole reason why Chris started that site, but we need feedback from hunters to make it work.

[adriaticum]

It brings negative attention from Duallie and all the other antis. I don't need a contest to motivate me to hunt wolves. It should be the same for the majority of other hunters.

Ha ha come on coach you are not getting your feelings hurt by all the antis. After all you are coach. You are supposed to have balls of steel lol

[adriaticum]

I await the dawn in 3 13. But can't sleep. Light dusting of snow in higher elevations. Clear night and the stars are out. Could be chilli in the morning.

[Ringo 7MM]

It brings negative attention from Duallie and all the other antis. I don't need a contest to motivate me to hunt wolves. It should be the same for the majority of other hunters.

Hey guys, I just got banded from this site last week for 5 days, for calling duallie an idiot, I'm glad to see other members on here feel the same way I do about him.

[coach]

Ha ha come on coach you are not getting your feelings hurt by all the antis. After all you are coach. You are supposed to have balls of steel lol

First off, nobody f$&ks with the Coach! :-D Secondly - the hunting community needs to be cognizant at all times of the desire of many British Columbians to stop wolf hunting altogether. I believe we can win the PR war through science based arguments. No need to stir up the emotions of the antis any more than necessary. Frankly, we were extremely lucky in this province to have avoided electing Mr Dix head and his NDP. Wolf and grizzly hunting were very close to being banned.

[Darksith]

What happens to the pack when they can't find food? It's a cycle, unless we want to "manage" the wolf population by thinning them to help them get through the mean season. When I took the core course in school a few decades ago, it wasn't just "hunter training". We were taught the fundamentals of wildlife management. Are those same principles of prey, predator population cycles no longer true?

no they aren't necessarily true. If the hunting for a wolf in untouched landscape with 100 deer in the drainage is say a difficulty of 5, but when the deer hit a population of 70 the difficulty is now 7, and when the population hits 50 the difficulty is now 9, the wolves will simply move on to less difficult areas to hunt. Once humans start punching in roads, removing cover and making it harder for animals to hide, stay protected, now the difficulty with a population of 50 is only 6, the wolves will stick around until the population hits say 20 and the difficulty goes back up to 9. Now a population with 50 can rebound much better than a population of 20. Get it? The wovles don't necessarily die, they simply move on, while the deer are dead and now left to recover or simply fade away. The danger as seen with the caribou is they simply fade away.

[Ourea]

That is the whole reason why Chris started that site, but we need feedback from hunters to make it work.

He was a character and a half for sure.
Despite his aggressive persona he contributed a lot to this site ...shame he has been cast off.

[hare_assassin]

OK. I'm in.

I don't stop hunting in November... I go all winter/spring (hare).

Tell me how to nail wolves. I'll do my part...and...

...maybe I'll even post some good recipes. :)

[The Dawg]

OK. I'm in.

I don't stop hunting in November... I go all winter/spring (hare).

Tell me how to nail wolves. I'll do my part...and...

...maybe I'll even post some good recipes. :)

Sign up to www.wolftracker.ca (http://www.wolftracker.ca) and learn ! :D

[hare_assassin]

Sign up to www.wolftracker.ca (http://www.wolftracker.ca) and learn ! :D

Will do. Thank you.

It seems, upon initial analysis, that predator populations need a reminder every so often about who the dominant predator truly is. From generation to generation, they are... forgetful. I will play my part as an unmistakable reminder.

I can see their frozen images in the winter landscape...

[WKCotts]

Good post Dave. Glad you made this public, a lot of people don't know how serious this is right now. These wolves are breeding like crazy and expanding to places you can't imagine. We need to band together and make an impact

[nor'wester]

I love reading about a bunch of guys bitching about wolf populations. Are they bad for game populations? Sure! Did these high/low predator/prey kind of cycles happen for millennia before we came along? I dunno, did they?!? Nobody blames the technology that allows us hunters to get into what's left of truly wild areas, where these animals may not have been safe from natural predators, but at least they were safe from flying lead. Nobody blames climate change, or habitat loss/fragmentation due to human activity. The 'modern' (ie hunting for pleasure, not subsistence) hunter has only been around since (pick a date?) the end of WWII?...in the grand scheme of things this is the blink of an eye! Yet nobody blames the lack of science from our stupid f-ing government who won't spend a dime (because they don't "have it"...ie. it's not their priority) on research that would lead to management that would make hunters, game, and probably even predators happy. But yeah, simple solution? Murder those f-ing wolves!!!

[Sofa King]

It's amazing how the guy your talking about, never has anything to say.

i did and i said it.
the op didn't have "proof" that the wolves wiped out all that areas elk.

he went back into there years later and couldn't get an elk.
he caught some pics on wolves on his trailcams.
then he pretty much states as fact that it was the wolves, creating a big thread again on how bad the wolves are out in our wilds.
we know that, it's been pounded to death.
but he never saw any wolf-killed elk.
he showed no proof of that.

now is that the reason?
probably a pretty good chance that it is.
but it's not proven by a couple trailcam pics.

i was following a deer up above stump lake years ago.
it would have been the mid-nineties.
following it's tracks through the snow, they climbed up a hill.
in an opening, like a small meadow, the entire area was pounded down by wolf tracks.
it was clear it was a pack.
i told so many people about this and nobody believed that it could have been wolves.
and on a drive home another time from that area, along the highway i think it was napier lake, there was a deer out on the ice.
i stopped to see what it was doing.
it was terrified out there and didn't seem to know what top do.
then i noticed two eagles sitting up in the trees on the shoreline.
then i caught movement at the tree's edge, and there was several wolves pacing back and forth.
nobody believed me on that one either.

[Sofa King]

It brings negative attention from Duallie and all the other antis. I don't need a contest to motivate me to hunt wolves. It should be the same for the majority of other hunters.

so, because someone doesn't enjoy killing wolves and coyotes, that makes them an anti now?
explain that one?
just because i don't believe that everything that lives needs to be killed doesn't make me an anti.
some hunters just have certain animals that they prefer to hunt, it's really that simple.

all I've asked in the past is what is the # that needs to be killed in said areas?
nobody ever answers, just comments like "kill'em all".
if they know that deer/predator pops need to be kept balanced, shouldn't there be known #'s of how many need thinned out?
is killing them all really the answer?
if there were no coyotes or wolves tomorrow, would that make everything right?
i'm pretty sure there needs to be a balance.

[Sofa King]

Hey guys, I just got banded from this site last week for 5 days, for calling duallie an idiot, I'm glad to see other members on here feel the same way I do about him.

looks like you didn't learn because you just did it in another thread.

[Ringo 7MM]

so, because someone doesn't enjoy killing wolves and coyotes, that makes them an anti now?
Explain that one?
Just because i don't believe that everything that lives needs to be killed doesn't make me an anti.
Some hunters just have certain animals that they prefer to hunt, it's really that simple.

All i've asked in the past is what is the # that needs to be killed in said areas?
Nobody ever answers, just comments like "kill'em all".
If they know that deer/predator pops need to be kept balanced, shouldn't there be known #'s of how many need thinned out?
Is killing them all really the answer?
If there were no coyotes or wolves tomorrow, would that make everything right?
I'm pretty sure there needs to be a balance.

blaa blaa blaa

[Ringo 7MM]

looks like you didn't learn because you just did it in another thread.

you will be banned after what you said to me in your Oct. 11 thread

[Sofa King]

Coach, put him on your blocked list and you will not read any more of his anti hunting drivel......I still believe he is an anti and just talks the talk to be "One of the guys".......

Cheers

SS
shows how little you know then.
you clearly aren't a good "reader" of people.

it's incredible how offended and defensive people get if someone has a different view than them.
and going to the length of labelling a fellow hunter an "anti"??
no wonder so many people have stopped posting stories.

i'm not saying it's "wrong" to kill predators.
i simply stated that the op was "speculating" on this claim.
hell, i agree that it was probably the wolves, but that doesn't change the speculation of the post.

go nuts, kill all the wolves you want.
you're fully entitled to, no argument there.
but i'll shoot the ones i see with my camera and let them walk.
that's my choice and no more right or wrong than you're killing of them.
and i'm not opposed to shooting one, for all i know, my reaction if i were to ever see a wolf while hunting might very well be to shoot it.
but i just choose not to shoot something that i'm not going to eat.
simple as that.
funny though that someone has a different opinion and they get called an anti.
hell, i have friends who don't hunt and never would, they'd never, ever kill anything.
but i don't label them anti's.
they're not, they aren't against it, it's just not their interest.

[frenchbar]

He was a character and a half for sure.
Despite his aggressive persona he contributed a lot to this site ...shame he has been cast off.

cast off:confused: ..im sure hes on here and can post when ever he feels.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I love reading about a bunch of guys bitching about wolf populations. Are they bad for game populations? Sure! Did these high/low predator/prey kind of cycles happen for millennia before we came along? I dunno, did they?!? Nobody blames the technology that allows us hunters to get into what's left of truly wild areas, where these animals may not have been safe from natural predators, but at least they were safe from flying lead. Nobody blames climate change, or habitat loss/fragmentation due to human activity. The 'modern' (ie hunting for pleasure, not subsistence) hunter has only been around since (pick a date?) the end of WWII?...in the grand scheme of things this is the blink of an eye! Yet nobody blames the lack of science from our stupid f-ing government who won't spend a dime (because they don't "have it"...ie. it's not their priority) on research that would lead to management that would make hunters, game, and probably even predators happy. But yeah, simple solution? Murder those f-ing wolves!!!

We've altered the landscape through salvage logging, oil and gas roads etc... which has made wolves more effective. Can't change that....but we can manage wolves if we can get the gov't to grow a set and use science-based decisions.


While hunting wolves may make us feel better, hunters will never have an impact on wolf populations. Never.

SS- Alberta has been culling wolves for a couple of years to protect dwindling caribou populations. They're using strychnine.

SSS

[Mikey Rafiki]

We've altered the landscape through salvage logging, oil and gas roads etc... which has made wolves more effective. Can't change that....but we can manage wolves if we can get the gov't to grow a set and use science-based decisions.


While hunting wolves may make us feel better, hunters will never have an impact on wolf populations. Never.

SS- Alberta has been culling wolves for a couple of years to protect dwindling caribou populations. They're using strychnine.

SSS

I'm all for killing as many as we can, but how can anyone say this is unprecedented when we only have decades of data over the thousands of years that these animals have been around. How do we know that predator and/or prey populations haven't hit rock bottom worse than this. Of course I'm not interested in waiting out a 100 year cycle but can we ever do a significant enough cull to turn the tide with the vast terrain in BC.

[gcreek]

The only thing you guys haven't mentioned is the fact that there is livestock in many areas of the province that weren't there when the last "wolf explosion" happened. Since most of us ranchers are not prepared to sell out and wait for the cycle to "naturally" proceed, the predators will have a food supply that will keep them located in an area. The remaining wild food supply will be further decimated as wolves mostly do prefer eating wild ungulates.

For the record, I was also one of those who had no clue what I was talking about when I expressed my concerns about the predator population a short 2 or 3 years ago.

[brutus]

to the one that only shoots what he can eat lol we all no who that is,hope your willing to change your diet soon cause the only thing you will be eating soon is dog meat.Wolfs are out there in greater numbers then ever before period,they are natural born killers thats all they do and if nothing is done soon all theres going to be left to hunt is wolf.I dont stump the bush as much as i want,but i go all over the province a couple times a year,every where i go i see less game and see more wolf tracks,places were i never seen wolf tracks look like a kennel now,numbers are up and climbing and its not going to stop untill something is done about it.look at yelowstone they reintroduce the wolf in the park and now they wonder if they did the right thing,the population is growing at an alarming rate and guess what its freaking them out,i bet they wont wait till theres is no more elk before they take action.BTW i have never seen a wolf in all the years in the bush i have spend they are like ghost you no there there you just dont see them,i no if i see some i will take them out.wolfs have no predators in the wild just us hunters.

[Cookie1965]

Hey guys, I just got banded from this site last week for 5 days, for calling duallie an idiot, I'm glad to see other members on here feel the same way I do about him.

Do they put that band on your ankle or around your neck?
Keep speaking your mind Duallie, it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.

[Sitkaspruce]

I could walk to FSJ in about 2-3 days from the cull area. Hardly a challenge for a wolf.... True I have no idea where you hunt there but I would not under estimate how far wolves travel is all...

We were a wee bit to the west of FSJ, so add another couple days or so of your walk and with all the game between the so called cull and where we hunt, I doubt the cull had any effect, but who really cares, this post is about a valley being over run with wolves and a lot of elk being affected........not my moose area.

Any info on the cull though????

Cheers

SS

[brutus]

sitka,i have a good idea of were you hunt,i looked at your picks and pretty sure of the area,tons of wolves and yote in that area,i know a hired gun that is paid by local farmers to take care of those pesky animals and the numbers he takes care of are stagering

[brutus]

BTW Jelvis is like the SYE of hbc every body knows at least one like him lol.JEL for president

[r106]

shows how little you know then.
you clearly aren't a good "reader" of people.

it's incredible how offended and defensive people get if someone has a different view than them.
and going to the length of labelling a fellow hunter an "anti"??
no wonder so many people have stopped posting stories.

i'm not saying it's "wrong" to kill predators.
i simply stated that the op was "speculating" on this claim.
hell, i agree that it was probably the wolves, but that doesn't change the speculation of the post.

go nuts, kill all the wolves you want.
you're fully entitled to, no argument there.
but i'll shoot the ones i see with my camera and let them walk.
that's my choice and no more right or wrong than you're killing of them.
and i'm not opposed to shooting one, for all i know, my reaction if i were to ever see a wolf while hunting might very well be to shoot it.
but i just choose not to shoot something that i'm not going to eat.
simple as that.
funny though that someone has a different opinion and they get called an anti.
hell, i have friends who don't hunt and never would, they'd never, ever kill anything.
but i don't label them anti's.
they're not, they aren't against it, it's just not their interest.

Your absolutely right, you have the that right to your opinion Duallie. But when you start voicing that opinion every chance you get, repeating the samething you start to sound like your protesting against it. So if you have something new to add then go for it but otherwise we get it, your not for wolf hunting or a cull. So move on

[Darksith]

I love reading about a bunch of guys bitching about wolf populations. Are they bad for game populations? Sure! Did these high/low predator/prey kind of cycles happen for millennia before we came along? I dunno, did they?!? Nobody blames the technology that allows us hunters to get into what's left of truly wild areas, where these animals may not have been safe from natural predators, but at least they were safe from flying lead. Nobody blames climate change, or habitat loss/fragmentation due to human activity. The 'modern' (ie hunting for pleasure, not subsistence) hunter has only been around since (pick a date?) the end of WWII?...in the grand scheme of things this is the blink of an eye! Yet nobody blames the lack of science from our stupid f-ing government who won't spend a dime (because they don't "have it"...ie. it's not their priority) on research that would lead to management that would make hunters, game, and probably even predators happy. But yeah, simple solution? Murder those f-ing wolves!!!
First off, then don't read it.

Secondly, yeah some of us do bitch about those other factors too. And honestly, I don't think this thread is about bitching about the wolves. Its about recognizing that wolves are on the rise, and in turn hopefully motivating people to actually get out there and possibly do something about it. Can I make the government spend more money on wildlife management? No, but I can vote against them and raise awareness among others...check, can I stop industry from opening up more areas, and changing the landscape? No, but I can voice my concerns and raise awareness which could lead to a majority way of thinking that could change things in the long run, and so on and so on...but guess what...I can go out there and with some other people, possibly do something about the number of wolves in my favorite area, and have fun in the process. You cry for the wolves, but what about the woodland caribou? Or the moose, or the deer. This is after all a "hunting" website. Maybe you should go to bleedingheartforwolves.com forums or something rather than troll here for 3 years with 53 posts

[Darksith]

shows how little you know then.
you clearly aren't a good "reader" of people.

it's incredible how offended and defensive people get if someone has a different view than them.
and going to the length of labelling a fellow hunter an "anti"??
no wonder so many people have stopped posting stories.


wow, thats a stretch coming from you Mr Negativity. Especially after your "beer can" comment in another thread if you wanna talk about assumptions

[BiG Boar]

So now that you know there are so many wolves, what are you going to do about it? Do you trap or hunt specifically for them? Or would you like some cheese with your wine?

[Ourea]

So now that you know there are so many wolves, what are you going to do about it? Do you trap or hunt specifically for them? Or would you like some cheese with your wine?

BB, I don't know if your slag is directed at me.
Could care less if it is.

I am passing on a quantified observation.
Farthest thing from wining......
I spend a lot of time in the field and as a result I am exposed to more than most.

If you prefer I can simply not share any of those experiences.

Lets try and keep the thread on track and keep the negativity and bickering to one's self.
Cheers.

[BiG Boar]

It was directed at you.

I know a lot of hunters who make no effort to help control wolves via trapping or hunting. I was just asking what you were going to do about it?

Negativity and bickering is exactly what this thread is IMO. You didnt say you were going to do anything about this wolf problem up secret creek.

So my question again is what do you plan to do about it, other than "report" on a public forum?

[Spy]

It was directed at you.

I know a lot of hunters who make no effort to help control wolves via trapping or hunting. I was just asking what you were going to do about it?

Negativity and bickering is exactly what this thread is IMO. You didnt say you were going to do anything about this wolf problem up secret creek.

So my question again is what do you plan to do about it, other than wine on a public forum?

Whining hey! Just went and reread the OP's first couple posts. No whining, just reporting on what him & his hunting party have observed. Why attack the messenger? As the OP "stated/reported" even the bios are concerned about the wolf population & the dramatic " decline" of the elk population in said area.
Than you have Duallie saying "maybe its not the wolves, how do you know, have you found any wolf kills!" What an idiotic statement! Duallie are you a Suzuki and ifso what is your relationship to David Suzuki?
BB what are you doing about the wolf overpopulation.

[Ourea]

It was directed at you.

I know a lot of hunters who make no effort to help control wolves via trapping or hunting. I was just asking what you were going to do about it?

Negativity and bickering is exactly what this thread is IMO. You didnt say you were going to do anything about this wolf problem up secret creek.

So my question again is what do you plan to do about it, other than wine on a public forum?

As stated BB I am passing on an observation.
Nothing more.
If you interpret that as wining on a public forum...well....I can't help you.
Read into it the way you want.

And here is a bit of information on the area ...
It is a six hr drive from here.
Then it is a 8 hr pack in to the first base camp.
There are three separate basins that are each about another 3-4 hrs
Just a quick sunday outing.

We agreed on our hunt last year that we would make an effort to find and shoot any wolves we encountered during the last couple days in there.
The area is choked with alder and dense brush and timber.
It is also excessively steep.
This all combines to make seeing a wolf extremely difficult if not impossible.
The practicality of hunting wolves in this area to any degree of success is close to zero.
Efforts are better directed in more practical areas.

Having said that, in regards to my efforts in general with predator control we already have plans for this winter to make as much of an impact here close to home. We will be out several times a month during that time.
Fox Pro's are ready to go and so are the guys.
We also plan on using all our bear tags in a few areas this spring that appear to have excessive numbers.

I am sure you are making plans to head out from your condo in Vancouver and do the same all winter as well or you wouldn't be pointing a judgemental finger at me, or anyone for that matter, because that would be hypocritical.

[BiG Boar]

Whining hey! Just went and reread the OP's first couple posts. No whining, just reporting on what him & his hunting party have observed. Why attack the messenger?

I wasn't attacking, I was merely asking what he meant to do about it.


BB what are you doing about the wolf overpopulation.

1. I wrote to my MLA expressing my thoughts with fact based argument.

2. I took the trapping course with 7 friends this spring.

3. I am looking at a line and at permission to trap currently owned lines.

4. Going out of my way to call and chase them down.

[BiG Boar]

I am sure you are making plans to head out from your condo in Vancouver and do the same all winter as well or you wouldn't be pointing a judgemental finger at me, or anyone for that matter, because that would be hypocritical.

Do your best to keep up son!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/C0F4ED8B-7B7C-4D16-8A3A-379AE978ECA3-2252-00000186B5E05935_zps0f73ac79.jpg

[Weatherby Fan]

How the hell did you get that wolf From your Condo in Vancouver Big Boar ? You must a switched to a 300 Wby !


Do your best to keep up son!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/C0F4ED8B-7B7C-4D16-8A3A-379AE978ECA3-2252-00000186B5E05935_zps0f73ac79.jpg

[Blainer]

AND ONLY 1 ???
C'MON SON, YOU CAN DO BETTER http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/C0F4ED8B-7B7C-4D16-8A3A-379AE978ECA3-2252-00000186B5E05935_zps0f73ac79.jpg

[brutus]

the fact is that 90% of the people will not invest time and money to go out and try to kill wolfs,it is a an oportunity thing while hunting for moose or sheep or elk or deer woops there a wolf shoot it done.when i move out of the lower rainland(in about 4-5 years) i will be lot closer to wolfs then i will do my best to reduce the population witch i dout will make a dent .hopefully by then there will still be game to hunt aside from dogs.

[Avalanche123]

I agree wolves are definitely contribute to declining wildlife populations however looking at the BIG picture I do wonder what else is at play? One of the changes I have noticed is just that...."Change". Areas continuously change and we shouldn't expect areas to stay the same. There are some very interesting thoughts in this thread and I am curious to hear what others have to say.

[Fella]

I wonder if there is more that can be done aside from killing wolves? Don't get me wrong I think it's an important cog in the wheel, but what about also taking the advantage away from wolves ie. permanently deactivating old roads by replanting trees and returning areas to their natural state? I'm no expert though and haven't done any study on the idea so I could be completely off on whether or not that would even be effective. I know it would make it tougher for hunters to get into the area but I think if we want strong game populations we have to be willing to sacrifice a little bit no?

[coach]

Do your best to keep up son!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/C0F4ED8B-7B7C-4D16-8A3A-379AE978ECA3-2252-00000186B5E05935_zps0f73ac79.jpg

Perhaps the most arrogant post in the history of HBC. Well done, Big Bore.

[Wrayzer]

Big Bore, was the wolf taken out to help the exploding wolf populations and help save the ungulate herds that are getting decimated across the Province? Or was it by chance he came running by and thought, hey hed look good as a rug?

[Weatherby Fan]

Big Bore, was the wolf taken out to help the exploding wolf populations and help save the ungulate herds that are getting decimated across the Province? Or was it by chance he came running by and thought, hey hed look good as a rug?

As long as we all keep up to Big Boar on the wolf cull the ungulates will be fine.......and it matters not how he got it.

[Blainer]

As long as we all keep up to Big Boar on the wolf cull the ungulates will be fine.......and it matters not how he got it.or maybe how many?????

[BiG Boar]

Perhaps the most arrogant post in the history of HBC. Well done, Big Bore.

Come on coach. One wolf is good. This is being arrogant....

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/FE0F4E17-B95F-4C75-8279-D54D933CFA31-2252-000001A251394E5C_zpsabe64271.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/519FDA17-50C8-4624-95AC-9325A19D0AD8-2252-000001A25C1EFE11_zpsdec14924.jpg

got these all downtown Hastings street! Right from the condo! Keep up Oreo!

[dana]

There is a big difference between killing a wolf in open country like in that picture and killing one in the heavy timber. A dead wolf is a dead wolf but killing one in open country does not make one a master wolf hunter. ;)

[coach]

Looks like this website has gone to the clowns. I'll spend my time somewhere else..

[Weatherby Fan]

There is a big difference between killing a wolf in open country like in that picture and killing one in the heavy timber. A dead wolf is a dead wolf but killing one in open country does not make one a master wolf hunter. ;)

And whats the big difference.........there dead so its all good isn't it.
I don't see many others posting pictures of 5 dead wolves........throw in the black one pictured above and his crew dumped 6 from that downtown condo.......
I'm going to do my best to keep up !

[Blainer]

Perhaps the most arrogant post in the history of HBC. Well done, Big Bore.Such a quality picture, I thought I would transfer to your thread
Taking quality pictures of your kill (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?73024-Taking-quality-pictures-of-your-kill)
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?73024-Taking-quality-pictures-of-your-kill

[dana]

Yup dead is dead but if one is going to get all cocky about how they are going to be a one man wolf killing machine, they better learn how to actually kill one by more than being in the right place at the right time.

[BiG Boar]

There is a big difference between killing a wolf in open country like in that picture and killing one in the heavy timber. A dead wolf is a dead wolf but killing one in open country does not make one a master wolf hunter. ;)

I would have to agree. These wolves were all originally in timber on gut piles. We hunted them hard and smart and wound up with 5 of the pack of 7 using calling and waiting. Going into the trees after them did not seem smart at all.

......We out smarted the b@stards and waited till they come into the open where we could take em all. Unfortunately 2 got away clean. That and our bag limit was full....

My question is, if the biologists know there is such a problem of exploding wolves, why is there a bag limit of 3 in most areas?

[*bcgold*]

Looks like this website has gone to the clowns. I'll spend my time somewhere else..
Clowns, aka wolves. Past few years its been hard for me to get out and hunt, so I come here to see the stories. Lately all you see are wolves out pissing each other on posts.

[dana]

I would have to agree. These wolves were all originally in timber on gut piles. We hunted them hard and smart and wound up with 5 of the pack of 7 using calling and waiting. Going into the trees after them did not seem smart at all.

......We out smarted the b@stards and waited till they come into the open where we could take em all. Unfortunately 2 got away clean. That and our bag limit was full....

My question is, if the biologists know there is such a problem of exploding wolves, why is there a bag limit of 3 in most areas?

We've had no bag limit for the last five or six years in the NT and it really does not make a hill of beans difference in the grand scheme of things. Only in the open country of the North can a guy get the chance at smoking an entire pack. Hunting wolves is in no way shape or form easy in the timber. I've tried and have only one wolf to my credit which was a howling session when I was in the right place at the right time. I've thrown lead at many wolves. Hitting a running wolves in the timber is nothing more than a Hail Merry. Good luck with your quest to save the province by being a one man killing machine. You'll need all the Luck you can get.

[BiG Boar]

I'd like to insert, just doing my part, but you're right, even 6 isn't going to slow them down. It wasn't even a dent in the howling we heard. The province needs to do something more, but we all know that will be too little too late. Write letters, take a trapping course, and shoot as many as you legally can.

Its hunters like Tooley that just don't understand wildlife management. And I know plenty of hunters that have the same attitude. What am I gonna do with a wolf? They say. And that's the same damn question they'll ask once thats all they can shoot in their area!

[adriaticum]

Looks like time to put your fur coat order in to Big Boar.

[steel_ram]

I still can not see the logic in the belief the wolves can remain in a high population in antone area when their food supply is not. Nor can they move into another packs territory.This is not the first time there has been a wolf boom. Strychnine, aerial shooting all failed in the past and nature eventually took it's course, and hunters had to suck it up for a few years. People are not willing to wait for anything these days. We are a very self serving, righteous and impatient generation.

[dana]

Steel,
what was believed about wolves has been flipped on its ass in recent years. Those collars have provided much insight that was contrary to the common belief many were taught. Not just here but in the States too. The whole Jellystone project has put a lot of money into research and long held beliefs have been thrown out the window when it comes to wolf behaviour. Wolves will travel insaine distance, hundreds of miles, and will be accepted by other packs. Subs can and do breed and form other packs. They have been collared in valemount and turned up in cache creek. They roam between BC, Alberta and even south of the border. Killing one wolf just means it will replaced by another. They kill, eat, kill, eat until the killing gets hard to do and then they move on. The only thing to stop them is a mass cull or a complete collapse in all prey species in BC.

[Skull Hunter]

Big boar, you've got to get back to posting your trip reports!

[Blainer]

Big boar, you've got to get back to posting your trip reports!Cause you know he was not there for the wolves!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Steel,
what was believed about wolves has been flipped on its ass in recent years. Those collars have provided much insight that was contrary to the common belief many were taught. Not just here but in the States too. The whole Jellystone project has put a lot of money into research and long held beliefs have been thrown out the window when it comes to wolf behaviour. Wolves will travel insaine distance, hundreds of miles, and will be accepted by other packs. Subs can and do breed and form other packs. They have been collared in valemount and turned up in cache creek. They roam between BC, Alberta and even south of the border. Killing one wolf just means it will replaced by another. They kill, eat, kill, eat until the killing gets hard to do and then they move on. The only thing to stop them is a mass cull or a complete collapse in all prey species in BC.

They collared a female in Lake Chelan, Washington.....it then headed north and hung out for a few days west of Penticton...then on to Revelstoke, crossed the Columbia, then it killed some guys chickens so it ended up dead. Can't remember the exact time frame but it wasn't very long.

SSS

[Walking Buffalo]

I still can not see the logic in the belief the wolves can remain in a high population in antone area when their food supply is not. Nor can they move into another packs territory.This is not the first time there has been a wolf boom. Strychnine, aerial shooting all failed in the past and nature eventually took it's course, and hunters had to suck it up for a few years. People are not willing to wait for anything these days. We are a very self serving, righteous and impatient generation.

Poisoning and aerial shoot have been Very effective in the past. That's why there are so many comments of wolves coming into territory that they have not been in for many years. The only thing that has failed is modern societies new fairytales about the wolf and the government's inaction in allowing effective means to reduce the population again.



Big Boar, you took the OP to be whining? Some days I just don't understand you at all....

[brutus]

Dana hit the nail on the head,at leat one guy see it the same way i do.if nothing is done wolfs will keep killing untill theres nothing to kill anymore,then they will go after ranch animals full time and maybe something will be done.

[Darksith]

I wonder if there is more that can be done aside from killing wolves? Don't get me wrong I think it's an important cog in the wheel, but what about also taking the advantage away from wolves ie. permanently deactivating old roads by replanting trees and returning areas to their natural state? I'm no expert though and haven't done any study on the idea so I could be completely off on whether or not that would even be effective. I know it would make it tougher for hunters to get into the area but I think if we want strong game populations we have to be willing to sacrifice a little bit no?
Totally agree, but its the government that needs to force industry to do this. And we all know how that is gonna go down...just look at all the suspended well sites in the north. Rather than call them dead wells, they suspend them or label them something else so they don't have to do reclamation work. Same goes for roads, although at least forestry can argue that the road will get reused one day when the trees mature again if that ever happens.

[REMINGTON JIM]

The Wolves have moved in hard here in the Cariboo in the last 3-4 Years ! My buddy snared one 2 winters ago with a Collar on it - He got hold of the MOV and sent the collar in - The Wolf had come out of the JASPER Pack - Long ways to nearly 100 Mile house ! Maybe a outcast or just a traveller - who knows :confused: he wasn't talking ! :-D RJ

[adriaticum]

I still can not see the logic in the belief the wolves can remain in a high population in antone area when their food supply is not. Nor can they move into another packs territory.This is not the first time there has been a wolf boom. Strychnine, aerial shooting all failed in the past and nature eventually took it's course, and hunters had to suck it up for a few years. People are not willing to wait for anything these days. We are a very self serving, righteous and impatient generation.

Sure wolves can move into another pack's territory.
If wolves have any other predators except humans, it's other packs.

[Rackem]

Big Boar, how did you get that black wolf to look so alive?

Some of my family believe that we are living in the "end times" and they claim anecdotally that "exploding" populations of wolves and ravens are God's way of preparing to dispose of the mass humanity killed at Armageddon LOL!

I am going to do my best to get some this year, looking into a trapping license.

[Spy]

Big Boar, how did you get that black wolf to look so alive?

Some of my family believe that we are living in the "end times" and they claim anecdotally that "exploding" populations of wolves and ravens are God's way of preparing to dispose of the mass humanity killed at Armageddon LOL!

I am going to do my best to get some this year, looking into a trapping license.
LOL you better pick some tinfoil up for the family...:;)

[Rackem]

No doubt, not sure the tinfoil would be enough, but they also think I am the devil...

[adriaticum]

No doubt, not sure the tinfoil would be enough, but they also think I am the devil...

You're not?

[Rackem]

ahahaha! Perhaps, just not in the way they think of the devil..:twisted:

[gcreek]

Its hunters like Tooley that just don't understand wildlife management. And I know plenty of hunters that have the same attitude. What am I gonna do with a wolf? They say. And that's the same damn question they'll ask once thats all they can shoot in their area!

I wonder if this type utilize the flies, mice, mosquitos and rats that they dispose of?

[finngun]

I would have to agree. These wolves were all originally in timber on gut piles. We hunted them hard and smart and wound up with 5 of the pack of 7 using calling and waiting. Going into the trees after them did not seem smart at all.
......We out smarted the b@stards and waited till they come into the open where we could take em all. Unfortunately 2 got away clean. That and our bag limit was full....
My question is, if the biologists know there is such a problem of exploding wolves, why is there a bag limit of 3 in most areas?

beautiful work big boar....all 10 points for you and buddy....how many deer and moose is saved next winter...a lot:-D

[BiG Boar]

I would like to apologize and let everyone know that I was only jesting with this thread in playing the devils advocate in what we should all do about wolves. The OP and many other serious hunters fully understand what is happening to the wolf population in this province. Most hunters on here want nothing to do with helping to control the population, yet are first to complain about their area, or LEH area, and being unsuccessful in their hunts due to the wolves that have taken over their area. The OP had a good hunting area that was ruined by wolves, and though I don't have hunting areas that I have been hunting for many years and have seen any real changes in, I know that wolves are here to stay, because our government won't be the first to step in and take measures that will help control them.

Wolves are one of the rarest animals to get a chance at, and in my opinion, every single one is a trophy. They are incredibly hard to hunt, and any opportunity that can be had, should be taken. In my opinion of all the animals Ive hunted, wolves are the hardest to harvest on any sort of consistent basis. They are smart, hungry, efficient, killing machines. I have a great respect for them as they are my direct competition. I don't want to wipe them out as I understand they are an important part of the ecosystem. But if we as hunters want to be good stewards of the land, we've got to do our part to help control them. The OP was merely reporting his findings, and all I wanted to know is if he was going to to anything about it, or just find a new area to hunt his preffered quarry.

I hope this thread has opened the eyes of some of the newer hunters of how bad the problem really is, and what we as hunter/outdoorsmen can/should do about it.

[WKCotts]

I would like to apologize and let everyone know that I was only jesting with this thread in playing the devils advocate in what we should all do about wolves. The OP and many other serious hunters fully understand what is happening to the wolf population in this province. Most hunters on here want nothing to do with helping to control the population, yet are first to complain about their area, or LEH area, and being unsuccessful in their hunts due to the wolves that have taken over their area. The OP had a good hunting area that was ruined by wolves, and though I don't have hunting areas that I have been hunting for many years and have seen any real changes in, I know that wolves are here to stay, because our government won't be the first to step in and take measures that will help control them.

Wolves are one of the rarest animals to get a chance at, and in my opinion, every single one is a trophy. They are incredibly hard to hunt, and any opportunity that can be had, should be taken. In my opinion of all the animals Ive hunted, wolves are the hardest to harvest on any sort of consistent basis. They are smart, hungry, efficient, killing machines. I have a great respect for them as they are my direct competition. I don't want to wipe them out as I understand they are an important part of the ecosystem. But if we as hunters want to be good stewards of the land, we've got to do our part to help control them. The OP was merely reporting his findings, and all I wanted to know is if he was going to to anything about it, or just find a new area to hunt his preffered quarry.

I hope this thread has opened the eyes of some of the newer hunters of how bad the problem really is, and what we as hunter/outdoorsmen can/should do about it.

Well said Dave. I'm glad you decided to "clear the air" on your previous posts.

[Spy]

I would like to apologize and let everyone know that I was only jesting with this thread in playing the devils advocate in what we should all do about wolves. The OP and many other serious hunters fully understand what is happening to the wolf population in this province. Most hunters on here want nothing to do with helping to control the population, yet are first to complain about their area, or LEH area, and being unsuccessful in their hunts due to the wolves that have taken over their area. The OP had a good hunting area that was ruined by wolves, and though I don't have hunting areas that I have been hunting for many years and have seen any real changes in, I know that wolves are here to stay, because our government won't be the first to step in and take measures that will help control them.

Wolves are one of the rarest animals to get a chance at, and in my opinion, every single one is a trophy. They are incredibly hard to hunt, and any opportunity that can be had, should be taken. In my opinion of all the animals Ive hunted, wolves are the hardest to harvest on any sort of consistent basis. They are smart, hungry, efficient, killing machines. I have a great respect for them as they are my direct competition. I don't want to wipe them out as I understand they are an important part of the ecosystem. But if we as hunters want to be good stewards of the land, we've got to do our part to help control them. The OP was merely reporting his findings, and all I wanted to know is if he was going to to anything about it, or just find a new area to hunt his preffered quarry.

I hope this thread has opened the eyes of some of the newer hunters of how bad the problem really is, and what we as hunter/outdoorsmen can/should do about it.
You didn't have to make such a complicated excuse up, you Could have just blamed it on your hangover. Nice wolves, did you eat them?:-)

[BiG Boar]

You didn't have to make such a complicated excuse up, you Could have just blamed it on your hangover. Nice wolves, did you eat them?:-)

Wolves may carry the hiatid disease, which is why it's recommended to use gloves when touching them. I've tried a variety of game to eat in the past few years including grizzly, black bear, cougar, bobcat and coyote. The coyote I ate wasn't amazing eating.....I decided I best pass on these. There is nothing about a gut shot wolf that screams tasty. I would eat one if I was starving...but that's about it. None of these wolves were consumed.

[Spy]

Wolves may carry the hiatid disease, which is why it's recommended to use gloves when touching them. I've tried a variety of game to eat in the past few years including grizzly, black bear, cougar, bobcat and coyote. The coyote I ate wasn't amazing eating.....I decided I best pass on these. There is nothing about a gut shot wolf that screams tasty. I would eat one if I was starving...but that's about it. None of these wolves were consumed.
:-):-) :-)

[longwalk]

Spent eight days at the top end of Boundary Creek/ Gable creek. Hiked into old blocks that should have had some mule deer in them. Saw two mule deer does and one fawn in the entire time. One set of moose tracks frozen in the mud and one small pocket of white tailed deer. Locals are seeing wolves low down in the valley. One was reportedly shot that had a collar on it from Yellowstone NP.

I am sure the maze of logging roads in and out of the boundary/ Granby do not help the ungulates but the wolves and grizz are not helping the situation. Saw lots of Grizzly trackes in the upper Traverse area. Very few hunters higher up. We were the only camp past the 30k mark. Saw lots of camps set up lower down.

Before any sharp eyed reg readers jump on me, I know that Mulies are closed in 8-15. Just noticed a distinct lack of them.

[6point]

Before any sharp eyed reg readers jump on me, I know that Mulies are closed in 8-15. Just noticed a distinct lack of them.
hey I didn't know they changed the mulie season for 8-15... it appears to be still open for any buck until the end of the month but closed to everyone except youth in November! what brought this change on? I haven't hunted the area for a few years now but there used to be lots of mulies!

[reach]

Before any sharp eyed reg readers jump on me, I know that Mulies are closed in 8-15. Just noticed a distinct lack of them.
8-15 is any buck for the month of October. There was an error in the printed synopsis, corrected last fall.

http://env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/news/
http://env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/CorrectionsPoster.pdf

Edit: corrected my correction... :) Nov 4 point season doesn't include 8-12 through 8-15

[aggiehunter]

maybe time to stop the GOS on WT does and give them critters something other than Elk calves to eat....

[aggiehunter]

Ourea....if you would just tell everybody where that area is they wouldn't slag you anymore....I don't have a GPS but a handrawn map will make still make me like you!

[rogerb]

8-15 is any buck for the month of October, and 4 point Nov 1 - 10. There was an error in the printed synopsis, corrected last fall.

http://env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/news/
http://env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/CorrectionsPoster.pdf

8-15 doesn't have a gos 4 point mulie opening in november unless I'm reading it wrong.

[GoatGuy]

maybe time to stop the GOS on WT does and give them critters something other than Elk calves to eat....
Unfortunately, that isn't the way it works.

[aggiehunter]

I know them wolfies are fussy little buggers arent' they..

[reach]

8-15 doesn't have a gos 4 point mulie opening in november unless I'm reading it wrong.
D'oh! Right you are. One more patch, coming right up.

[325]

When I guided back in the 1990s, one of my hunters killed a collared wolf. Turns out the wolf was 375 km from its original collaring location.

[GoatGuy]

I know them wolfies are fussy little buggers arent' they..

Mortality risk is generally tied to habitat. Ie, mortality risk for elk is lower in grasslands and properly maintained natural ecosystems, then jackpine flats that look like hair on a dog's back. Oppositely wt's typically do better in densely forested areas.

I recognize you will probably get no value out of this, but hopefully some of the others reading will. If we don't understand the problem we won't come up with the right solution.

[aggiehunter]

Goatguy...wolves eat whities just fine...so I was just sayin...

[Ourea]

Hope this thread is back on track and more input on the concern over exploding wolf populations is shared.
Hopefully all can learn and be made more aware of this real and growing imbalance in the ecosystem.

wolftracker.ca is a great place to report encounters.
This could become a valuable data base to help assist in managing the problem in the future.

[Rackem]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/537288_10151662987515754_558945803_n.jpg

[Kudu]

Come on coach. One wolf is good. This is being arrogant....

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/FE0F4E17-B95F-4C75-8279-D54D933CFA31-2252-000001A251394E5C_zpsabe64271.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn5/bigbore14/519FDA17-50C8-4624-95AC-9325A19D0AD8-2252-000001A25C1EFE11_zpsdec14924.jpg

got these all downtown Hastings street! Right from the condo! Keep up Oreo!

Simply brilliant!!!

God - that condo has a view to die for.......

Good hunting there Dave, looks like you have finally met your true match near home - Rumour has it - you have had a great season so far.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy...wolves eat whities just fine...so I was just sayin...

What exactly does this mean?

[aggiehunter]

more whities more food for predators....we are just lucky we have not had a harsh winter...

[ruger#1]

What exactly does this mean?
Maybe he is native and wants to feed us to the wolves.

[GoatGuy]

more whities more food for predators....we are just lucky we have not had a harsh winter...

Now what does this mean? Please flesh out your contribution.

[Rackem]

I thought he was meaning White Tail Deer?? No?

[Rackem]

maybe time to stop the GOS on WT does and give them critters something other than Elk calves to eat....

This is why I assumed he meant White Tail Deer....

[Rackem]

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by aggiehunter http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1397541#post1397541)
I know them wolfies are fussy little buggers arent' they..


Mortality risk is generally tied to habitat. Ie, mortality risk for elk is lower in grasslands and properly maintained natural ecosystems, then jackpine flats that look like hair on a dog's back. Oppositely wt's typically do better in densely forested areas.

I recognize you will probably get no value out of this, but hopefully some of the others reading will. If we don't understand the problem we won't come up with the right solution. Re: Death Of A Valley
Goatguy...wolves eat whities just fine...so I was just sayin...

aggiehunter (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?3824-aggiehunter)




Re: Death Of A Valley
more whities more food for predators....we are just lucky we have not had a harsh winter...

[GoatGuy]

What does this mean for white-tailed deer, wolves, hunters, winters, elk??

Makes no sense.

[Ourea]

......more like Death of a Thread.

Purpose was to draw attention to yet another area heavily impacted by wolves and raise awareness.
Hopefully that objective was realized.

[Getbent]

Worked for me Ourea.
I hear as well BB that you have had a great season...do tell.
More wolves? and???

[Walking Buffalo]

......more like Death of a Thread.

Purpose was to draw attention to yet another area heavily impacted by wolves and raise awareness.
Hopefully that objective was realized.


It's good to keep the public informed on the wolf issues. However, what should be done about it?

Let the wolves control the ungulate population in perpetuity?

Control the wolf population so that people can eat venison too?


Trapping and hunting will not decrease the wolf population.

[aggiehunter]

Ourea, not trying to derail the thread...but why do you think wolves are moving south?

[Husky7mm]

I would guess that north and east of there are coming up light on things for them to eat.

[yama49]

Ourea, not trying to derail the thread...but why do you think wolves are moving south?

Who says there coming from the north? Theres a wolf problem south of us, so maybe there coming from the South???

[GoatGuy]

They're coming from both directions, data from collared populations shows that. Historically wolves were limited to the North, the reintroduction to Jellystone and the dispersal from there resulted in a gradual recolonization and connectivity between 'Canadian' and 'US' wolves = population explosion. Collared wolves moving between BC/Montana/Washington/Idaho.

[dana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVpSTzBH1tM

[dana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T6GfdgJuTM

[One Shot]

Historically wolves were limited to the North, the reintroduction to Jellystone and the dispersal from there resulted in a gradual recolonization and connectivity between 'Canadian' and 'US' wolves = population explosion. Collared wolves moving between BC/Montana/Washington/Idaho.

Not true at all in the 1800s wolves were all over the vast majority of NA including the south. It was the introduction of cartridges and repeating rifles that took brought to wolves to the brink of extinction in the US and eliminated them in wide areas of Canada. The same goes for grizzley bears in the US.

The elk population in the Yellowstone region was desimating the forest and grass regions to the point where there was no regrowth for decades. After the introduction of the wolves there from northern BC a balance has started to return.

[one-shot-wonder]

Thats one good mama, with a steep hill to climb!
Thanks for getting the blood pressure up Steve.....quite the sight to witness

[WKCotts]

They're coming from all directions. They have killed collared wolves in region 4 from Idaho, Washington and Northern BC

[dana]

Not true at all in the 1800s wolves were all over the vast majority of NA including the south. It was the introduction of cartridges and repeating rifles that took brought to wolves to the brink of extinction in the US and eliminated them in wide areas of Canada. The same goes for grizzley bears in the US.

The elk population in the Yellowstone region was desimating the forest and grass regions to the point where there was no regrowth for decades. After the introduction of the wolves there from northern BC a balance has started to return.

So the Yellowstone Fires of 88 didn't produce any good feed? ;) Didn't the reintroduction happen in the late 90s. Hmmm decades eh?

[GoatGuy]

Not true at all in the 1800s wolves were all over the vast majority of NA including the south. It was the introduction of cartridges and repeating rifles that took brought to wolves to the brink of extinction in the US and eliminated them in wide areas of Canada. The same goes for grizzley bears in the US.

The elk population in the Yellowstone region was desimating the forest and grass regions to the point where there was no regrowth for decades. After the introduction of the wolves there from northern BC a balance has started to return.

I'm was referring to the 'post poison' period when wolves had been eliminated from a majority of their range. Sorry, should have clarified that.

[brutus]

one shot -give your head a shake

[brutus]

one shot -give your head a shake

[adriaticum]

one shot -give your head a shake

He is right.

[adriaticum]

So the mistake they made in Yellowstone was introducing wolves to keep the elk herds down.
Instead they should have collared and let loose a few HBC members and that would have been better.
There are better ways of keeping the elk populations down.

[adriaticum]

Grey wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_wolf) packs were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park and Idaho starting in 1995. These wolves were considered as “experimental, non-essential” populations per article 10(j) of the Endangered Species Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Species_Act) (ESA). Such classification gave government officials greater leeway in managing wolves to protect livestock, which was considered one of a series of compromises wolf reintroduction proponents made with concerned local ranchers.
Indeed, local industry and environmental groups battled for decades over the Yellowstone and Idaho wolf reintroduction effort. The idea of wolf reintroduction was first brought to Congress in 1966 by biologists who were concerned with the critically high elk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk) populations in Yellowstone and the ecological damages to the land from excessively large herds. Officially, 1926 was the year that the last wolves were killed within Yellowstone’s boundaries. When the wolves were eradicated and hunting eliminated, the elk population boomed. Over the succeeding decades, elk populations grew so large that they unbalanced the local ecosystem. The number of elk and other large prey animals increased to the point that they gathered in large herds along valley bottoms and meadows overgrazing new-growth vegetation. Because of overgrazing, deciduous woody plant species such as upland aspen and riparian cottonwood became seriously diminished. So, because the keystone predators, the wolves, had been removed from the Yellowstone-Idaho ecosystem, the ecosystem changed. This change affected other species as well. Coyotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyotes) filled in the niche left by wolves, but couldn't control the large ungulate populations. Booming coyote numbers, furthermore, also had a negative effect on other species, particularly the red fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_fox), pronghorn, and domestic sheep. Ranchers, though, remained steadfastly opposed to reintroducing a species of animal that they considered to be analogous to a plague, citing the hardships that would ensue with the potential loss of stock caused by wolves.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction#cite_note-3)





This info is not hard to find. Just move your fingers!

[dana]

And then in 1988 nature replenished the Park on its own. Canadian grey wolves were introduced in the 90s after nature had already replenished the forest. The Canadian grey wolf is a much larger subspecies of wolf than the subspecies that originally occurred in the Yellowstone area. A much more efficient killer. And now years later has devasted the elk herds in the Park and have moved many many miles from the introduction sites. WA, ID, UT, WY, MT and rumours of sightings in CO and NM. And we've got them coming back to Alta and BC.

[adriaticum]

Speaking of predators

Colorado Man Attacked by 3 Coyotes, Fought Them Off With Flashlight

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2013/10/colorado-man-attacked-3-coyotes-fought-them-flashlight?src=SOC&dom=fb

[seanps]

And then in 1988 nature replenished the Park on its own. Canadian grey wolves were introduced in the 90s after nature had already replenished the forest. The Canadian grey wolf is a much larger subspecies of wolf than the subspecies that originally occurred in the Yellowstone area. A much more efficient killer. And now years later has devasted the elk herds in the Park and have moved many many miles from the introduction sites.

Just finished reading a phenomenal book called "Decade of the Wolf," by the biologist who led the re-introduction.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x4OCBJj9L._SY344_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Should be required reading, no matter where you fall on the debate over hunting wolves. Fascinating to see the positive benefits that flowed from the introduction of the wolves (brought down elk numbers, which improved vegetation, which brought more beavers, which led to wetlands, which supported wildlife that had left the park due to elk over grazing vegetation; reduced coyote numbers, which allowed red foxes to proliferate).

Also hard facts on how much wolves eat, and a great deal about the social structures of packs, which is markedly different in closed environments like this one, where the pack structure isn't frequently disrupted by members being shot. Some packs are led by alpha females, not alpha males (I didn't know), and there's much about how wolves live and die in the wild (sticks in the gut, being killed by rival packs).

[LBM]

And then in 1988 nature replenished the Park on its own. Canadian grey wolves were introduced in the 90s after nature had already replenished the forest. The Canadian grey wolf is a much larger subspecies of wolf than the subspecies that originally occurred in the Yellowstone area. A much more efficient killer. And now years later has devasted the elk herds in the Park and have moved many many miles from the introduction sites. WA, ID, UT, WY, MT and rumours of sightings in CO and NM. And we've got them coming back to Alta and BC.

Wolves were crossing back and forth from B.C. to the states before the introduction in the 90s.

[brutus]

Comming from the guy who lead the reintroduction for sure he will point out only the positive,I also read the book.he seams to leave out a lot of negative and only focuses on the rest

[Blainer]

Worked for me Ourea.
I hear as well BB that you have had a great season...do tell.
More wolves? and???maybe try to get him to start with last year,epic!
and I have enjoyed the thread, lot's of great information tabled.

[One Shot]

one shot -give your head a shake

Give my head a shake for what!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Give my head a shake for what!


Well' I for one wouldn't not have worded it quite that way....but I would guess this post was meant to mean that bullets and modern firearms didn't result in wolves being extirpated from the lower 48. It was poison.
Bullets and hunters can't manage to impact wolves in modern times let alone way back then.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

"Coyotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyotes) filled in the niche left by wolves, but couldn't control the large ungulate populations. Booming coyote numbers, furthermore, also had a negative effect on other species, particularly the red fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_fox), pronghorn, and domestic sheep."

Hahaha, this is awesome..... wolves don't eat domestic sheep?

[brutus]

sss thanks for clarifying things,somebody needs to do some research on wolfs and there history

[One Shot]

Well' I for one wouldn't not have worded it quite that way....but I would guess this post was meant to mean that bullets and modern firearms didn't result in wolves being extirpated from the lower 48. It was poison.
Bullets and hunters can't manage to impact wolves in modern times let alone way back then.

SSS

Do not know why I failed to mention that aspect even though we used it on our place. I agree with you somewhat on the poison albeit it had a major impact on wolves, firearms were more abundant and more easily available to people than poison. Back in the day more people were more set on eliminating wolves by any manner than there are today.

[dana]

Coyote numbers are way down in the Park because wolves kill coyotes but they seem to put up with fox. Coyotes on the other hand hate fox and kill them on site. So now things have changed but there is still a dog that doesn't win the fight. What makes a fox anymore important than a coyote? Now elk numerous are in the toilet yet I'm willing to bet the rodent numbers will be at an all time high since the yote pops are diminished. So why are rodents more important than elk? There is still no balance no matter how you slice it.

[caddisguy]

They're coming from all directions. They have killed collared wolves in region 4 from Idaho, Washington and Northern BC

I saw one in Spring 2012 outside my apartment in Langley. Had a goose nesting on my balcony (2nd floor) and she was making a huge fuss one morning. I looked down outside my window and saw the wolf sniffing about. Seen tons of coyotes in the area, but a wolf?! Never heard of any out this way... Pitt/Mission is the closest I can think of... but did it wander across the bridge, get on 200th and hit the Langley bypass and decide to check out the fields between Glover and 56th? I don't think so. Any ideas where the heck it would have come from and why it would want to hang out in "downtown" Langley?

[Red arch]

In order to truly manage wildlife one has to look at everything from the rodents up to the elk. They are interconnected, and proper management be it of elk, wolves, coyotes, fox, moose, deer, and bear requires each species in the food chain to be looked at. It does nothing to start culling wolves if elk herds are being thinned by a parasite carried by rodents, and not wolves themselves (hypothetically, wolves might possibly be the issue here)

[RiverOtter]

Being that elk gather in the valley's every winter, an in park hunt could have easily knocked elk pops back into check, especially if females were targeted...Might have even fed a couple few families.

Guns in a park though, what a dreadful thought......:roll:

Betting someone already posted this link, but just in case, here it is. http://cryingwolfmovie.com/

[brutus]

I saw one in Spring 2012 outside my apartment in Langley. Had a goose nesting on my balcony (2nd floor) and she was making a huge fuss one morning. I looked down outside my window and saw the wolf sniffing about. Seen tons of coyotes in the area, but a wolf?! Never heard of any out this way... Pitt/Mission is the closest I can think of... but did it wander across the bridge, get on 200th and hit the Langley bypass and decide to check out the fields between Glover and 56th? I don't think so. Any ideas where the heck it would have come from and why it would want to hang out in "downtown" Langley?
from the south lol

[OutWest]

Been doing some forestry work the last few days and have come across more than a few of these. These ones were made sometime between 5pm yesterday and 7am this morning. Didn't have my camera when I first walked in so they are a little melted out. If any Okanagan guys are looking to whack and stack a few dogs then send me a pm. I'm not on Wolftracker.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1410688_10151947447939847_658453147_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1403216_10151947449844847_230927858_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/740418_10151947449429847_1917783964_o.jpg

[1899]

Being that elk gather in the valley's every winter, an in park hunt could have easily knocked elk pops back into check, especially if females were targeted...Might have even fed a couple few families.

Guns in a park though, what a dreadful thought......:roll:



I was going to say the same thing.

[big game chaser]

Not to mention it gets hammered with hunters!hmmm maybe part of the problem!

[dana]

Just saw it mentioned on another forum that the moose numbers in Yellowstone have gone from 1500 5 years ago to 100 this year.

[horshur]

Just saw it mentioned on another forum that the moose numbers in Yellowstone have gone from 1500 5 years ago to 100 this year.

yes but the willow is doing good now.......

[brutus]

That's what 1000 +wolfs will do to animals

[steel_ram]

That's what 1000 +wolfs will do to animals

More like -100 in Yellowstone. A 1000 wolves and it will be the wolves having problems this winter.

[brutus]

sorry let me clarify,over 1600 wolf in the 3 states surrounding yellowstone,if i am right wolfs tend to move arround but maybe i am wrong lol ask the elk in that area i am pretty sure they will agree with me,dont wait to long you might have a problem finding one

[RiverOtter]

Just saw it mentioned on another forum that the moose numbers in Yellowstone have gone from 1500 5 years ago to 100 this year.
David Suzuki will be happy, natures in "PERFECT BALANCE"..........Rolling Eyes

[Ourea]

I had stated that the elk numbers were getting fewer and fewer with the new presence of wolves.
Update.....
My old backpacking hunting partner returned this fall to the valley that I started this thread on.
He is about as a hard core bush rat as I have ever had the privilege of hunting with.
His report on his recent trip.......ZERO ELK seen in 7 days.
The habitat in there is as good as it gets for elk and extremely remote so it always held very robust elk numbers relative to it's size.
It was not uncommon to have 6 - 8 bulls screaming and a few dozens cows scattered in various spots on the valley slopes.
Never have we gone without looking over numerous bulls before picking out the one we wanted to hunt.
Never had we gone on a trip in there and not seen numerous elk.

Now nothing. No elk or much sign of any activity whatsoever.

I was hoping to hear that after the 4 or 5 years since the wolves came that they will have moved on and the elk would start returning. Not the case.
Death of a valley.........

[Rattler]

Sad to hear this news. One has to think the wolf numbers have to drop off at some point here...no more food left.

[Ourea]

Sad to hear this news. One has to think the wolf numbers have to drop off at some point here...no more food left.

Agreed, common sense would dictate.
I am struggling with the void left if the wolves have been forced to move on for the most part.
The area is far too remote and habitat rich to not have elk in it.

Elk will be back, but when?
I am very interested in how this cycle will play out and what the timelines will be.

5 years ago I could have never fathomed that an area that we pull 340+ class elk out of every year would have next to no elk. Quite an eye opener.

[boxhitch]

So how do things look if you zoom out on the view a little bit. Whats going on in adjacent drainage's ? How far away is the next piece that would be considered good habitat ? Elk respond to pressure and move on , its a big world.

Yesterday I hunted a mulie spot I had hunted for several years and left alone for the last 4 years , it is now unhuntable due to changes in vegetation. More moose and less deer sign , but the beat goes on.

[Ourea]

So how do things look if you zoom out on the view a little bit. Whats going on in adjacent drainage's ? How far away is the next piece that would be considered good habitat ? Elk respond to pressure and move on , its a big world.

Yesterday I hunted a mulie spot I had hunted for several years and left alone for the last 4 years , it is now unhuntable due to changes in vegetation. More moose and less deer sign , but the beat goes on.

Obvious and valid point....and also thought of when we saw the drop in elk at the sign of wolves.
First question is where did they go?

Prior to Google Earth I rented planes and would fly remote backcountry and film it along with making notes on Topo's.
Once key habitat was identified I would circle it on the map then make plans to hit the ground to sniff it out.
If it supported good elk numbers we would take weeks cutting our access.

Key habitat in this general area consists of three 3 large primary drainages to which there are numerous side valleys. If you are a fit individual it would take about 5 - 6 days to walk all of our trail infrastructure and side valleys.
These drainages are in a 8km x 12km zone. There is very little key habitat outside of this general area and is why the overall elk numbers are pretty skinny yet concentrated. I keyed on the one valley and it is been the focal point on the thread for discussion purposes but I am referring to the general area.
So to make a comment on your valid call out....it's all dry.
If they have moved they have moved a long, long way which is possible but one would think there would be an increase in population density somewhere else.
That's not the case from what the bios are saying.....its on the decline in the general area.

My point was to call out the fact if the elk have left the building the wolves we be forced to move on.
Wolves move on.....elk should come back to the key and primary habitat.
That's not the case as of yet.

Again, I am interested on seeing this play out.

[Walking Buffalo]

It could be a very long wait for this valley to hold a population of elk again.

Areas of Alberta that experienced a 90% reduction in the elk population attributed mainly to wolf depredation 10 years ago
are still struggling to see any gains. The remaining elk population is too low to grow while there are still wolves around. This trophic cascade ends in a very fine point, a precarious balance teetering on ending with the extirpation of the elk.

In your analysis, it is some distance through unsuitable habitat for elk to emigrate to this area.

Without a complete reduction of wolves and a source of elk to repopulate this valley, along with the potential that the suitability of the habitat remains, it could be a very long time (perspectively based on a human's lifetime) before this place is once again a honey hole.

Lewis and Clark experienced this situation during thier explorations. Areas with high game densities, and vast areas inexplicably completely void of.game.

[boxhitch]

That spells out a bleak picture, likely with other species being cleaned up too . can only hope the cycle will repeat itself .

[Argali]

Ourea, your latest post answered a number of questions I was curious about, namely the size of the area, the distribution and number of drainages, and the distance from the next signficant elk population. Under the scenario you depict, I would guess that the prospects for quick re-population in your area are bleak at best. Your area is apparently a long way from the next viable elk population, and that population sounds like it also suffered severely from wolf predation. Likely, the wolves will have to leave or die to allow the elk polulation build up in the distant area before they will have incentive to migrate long distances through marginal habitat to your area.

Furthermore, since it has already been 4-5 years, it is likely that most of the original elk from your area are dead. So, re-colonization would most likely result from exploratory wandering rather than habit from previous migration. Maybe a small group of elk might make the move in the short term and thrive and multiply but I would guess that it might be a long time before it gets back to the way it was.

I hope that they come back sooner. Either way, I would love to hear how things progress (good or bad) over the coming years. It makes for a fascinating (albeit depressing) real-life scenario of the wolf-prey relationship. Thanks for posting your observations.

Also, interesting comments about the mountain region of Alberta and the historic Lewis and Clark reports of no game in some areas (like present day western Montana for example). I hunted both jurisdictions during the no-wolf heydays and the contrast with the present day situation after a decade or so of wolf predation is stunning.

[Bugle M In]

Obvious and valid point....and also thought of when we saw the drop in elk at the sign of wolves.
First question is where did they go?

Prior to Google Earth I rented planes and would fly remote backcountry and film it along with making notes on Topo's.
Once key habitat was identified I would circle it on the map then make plans to hit the ground to sniff it out.
If it supported good elk numbers we would take weeks cutting our access.

Key habitat in this general area consists of three 3 large primary drainages to which there are numerous side valleys. If you are a fit individual it would take about 5 - 6 days to walk all of our trail infrastructure and side valleys.
These drainages are in a 8km x 12km zone. There is very little key habitat outside of this general area and is why the overall elk numbers are pretty skinny yet concentrated. I keyed on the one valley and it is been the focal point on the thread for discussion purposes but I am referring to the general area.
So to make a comment on your valid call out....it's all dry.
If they have moved they have moved a long, long way which is possible but one would think there would be an increase in population density somewhere else.
That's not the case from what the bios are saying.....its on the decline in the general area.

My point was to call out the fact if the elk have left the building the wolves we be forced to move on.
Wolves move on.....elk should come back to the key and primary habitat.
That's not the case as of yet.

Again, I am interested on seeing this play out.


This seems to be happening to a T, in the valley I have hunted for 30+ years.
I think it will be just as many years now till they may be back.
Lack of snow slides, fires way further back in some other valley where I can't get to etc.
And wolves roaming up and down the river valley, year after year from all the sign, old and fresh!
cheers

[Kapow]

Leaving a gut pile in a rut area only makes things worse. Thanks to the hunters, the wolves are given a fresh plate of food and are able to smell that there are other elk/moose in the area. As this was the case in our latest hunt. I'm sure those wolves have learned what a gunshot means. Fortunately we were able to peg a few off as they were making there move. Next time, I will be bagging the guts and dumping them somewhere else.

[Seeker]

This is a cycle which I am sure will do just that...cycle. It will never return to previous 'Pre-wolf" status, simply because of the presence of wolves. In the East Kootenay's where the wolves started coming in 20+ years ago, the locals claim that the numbers are as low as they can remember. The level of truth to that statement is very subjective, but I have to believe there is some merit to it even if it is only anecdotal. That being said, if the wolves have been there for 20 years, and the numbers are just now as low as they have ever been, I would think your valley has at least another decade before you start to see elk return. The disconcerting fact that you said there was no sign at all, I don't think bodes well for your valley. Because as we all know, it tends to be the old "matriarchal" cows, that lead the herds back in the alpine and highlands after the winter months. If these females have been lost to the wolves, it may take even longer for the populations to return to your said valley. I hope I am wrong. The promising thing, is that in some areas, the elk seem to have found a niche and are able to persist in the presence of wolves. I know personally of some such areas in the West kootenay's

[GoatGuy]

Walking Buffalo hit the nail on the head.

You will probably see extremely low density populations for the foreseeable future. While the WK has lots of "food" most of the winter range sits underneath kootenay, arrow, revelstoke and kinbasket lakes. What remains is extremely limited and easy to 'mine' from a wolves perspective. An extremely narrow band of dense habitat, with water on the low side and high snowfall on the high side. There is very, very little 'traditional elk winter range' in the WK. If you reference the most current litterature (particularly Hebblewhite's) predation risk is extremely high throughout most of the area, particularly during the winter.

The long-term outlook for elk/deer/moose in the WK is bleak without predator management.

[GoatGuy]

This is a cycle which I am sure will do just that...cycle. It will never return to previous 'Pre-wolf" status, simply because of the presence of wolves. In the East Kootenay's where the wolves started coming in 20+ years ago, the locals claim that the numbers are as low as they can remember. The level of truth to that statement is very subjective, but I have to believe there is some merit to it even if it is only anecdotal. That being said, if the wolves have been there for 20 years, and the numbers are just now as low as they have ever been, I would think your valley has at least another decade before you start to see elk return. The disconcerting fact that you said there was no sign at all, I don't think bodes well for your valley. Because as we all know, it tends to be the old "matriarchal" cows, that lead the herds back in the alpine and highlands after the winter months. If these females have been lost to the wolves, it may take even longer for the populations to return to your said valley. I hope I am wrong. The promising thing, is that in some areas, the elk seem to have found a niche and are able to persist in the presence of wolves. I know personally of some such areas in the West kootenay's

"Cycles" include forest fires, succession, slides etc. Things that ebb and flow.

"Cycles" do not include fire surpression, cutblocks, roads, dams, logging, mining, highways, exclusion fencing, the majority of which favours wolves.

Unfortunately we in BC are doing nothing to manage for ungulate populations, or more importantly to increase ungulate populations. Many parts of the EK and WK are below historic levels and will continue to decline or operate "in a low". The really sad thing is hunters will continue to talk about hunting regulations, almost as if they will achieve anything positive in terms of increasing wildlife populations.

[rogerb]

Walking Buffalo hit the nail on the head.

You will probably see extremely low density populations for the foreseeable future. While the WK has lots of "food" most of the winter range sits underneath kootenay, arrow, revelstoke and kinbasket lakes. What remains is extremely limited and easy to 'mine' from a wolves perspective. An extremely narrow band of dense habitat, with water on the low side and high snowfall on the high side. There is very, very little 'traditional elk winter range' in the WK. If you reference the most current litterature (particularly Hebblewhite's) predation risk is extremely high throughout most of the area, particularly during the winter.

The long-term outlook for elk/deer/moose in the WK is bleak without predator management.

Certainly looks that way from this WK hunter's observation. Your description of the wintering ground here is spot on - the deep snow line isn't far above valley bottom in much of the west koots & the flooded valleys at most develop thin shelf ice in mid-winter with just a relatively thin strip of ungulate-friendly land between the two. Neither top nor bottom offers safety for the ungulates & both barriers offer tremendous advantage to predators.

Any idea if there is a winter flyover count scheduled for the West Kootenays this year?

I've also heard there is an annual 'drive-through' count done on deer along the lower Pend Oreille Valley road? Would be very interested in seeing the trend line on that count if it exists.

[Singleshotneeded]

Looks like we hunters need to spend some time thinning out the wolf population, or we'll be looking at a very lean period for hunting.

[Bugle M In]

wolf has been really evident where I have hunted Elk as well, and the results are the same as original post.
Elk are there, but hiding up from the main drainage bottoms as they once did in abundance.
Elk seem much smaller in #'s, as well as whities, and the Elk have become extremely quiet, unlike before when they bugled and call often...not a peep these past few years.
Wolf sign has become an every day occurrence, all over the drainage and higher hillsides.
It's the main reason I believe not much in the way of game is seen.
Bears however, all over the place.
Great cut blocks with lots of feed as well, so Wolf has to be in my opinion the main factor.
I know it will level out again, but how long is anyone's guess.
Worried that it may take years to have some fun again.

[Ourea]

I hear you Bugle M In.
It is frustrating to see one's prime hunting areas dry up so quick.
We have years and years of work cutting and digging in access to these remote unhunted basins and valleys.
It's a shame to walk away from a once prime area knowing now that the elk are all but gone.

[Husky7mm]

Sad to say it could really be years. They probably moved in there as other territories were full. We have been led to believe that when prey is reduced wolves move on or starve. I have found that is not nessasarily true. An area I surveyed in north western alberta has lots of wolves. I see them every trip. Been there this fall, winter, and spring. Never seen an ungulate there. No tracks , trails , droppings, bones, sheds, evidence of browsing on any trip. Those wolves are living off beaver , hares and poaching off other preds. Death by malnutrition and internal strife will likely occur before the ungulates come back.

[Elk-Aholic]

Looks like we hunters need to spend some time thinning out the wolf population, or we'll be looking at a very lean period for hunting.

Someone just hit the nail on the head! So if you're out hunting deer and see a wolf, please do us all a favor and stroke that wolf! It may affect your deer hunt that day, but will help out your deer and elk hunting in the future so much more!

[Ourea]

Was looking at some old photos and came across one that shows the quality of habitat we were hunting .....where elk were abundant......unhunted.
Note the slides.....
The open areas they create amongst the alder.......
The resulting grass feeding areas produced.
Glassed a lot of elk from this vantage point.



This small drainage is an example of the overall area I was referencing in this thread....."DEATH OF A VALLEY".
It's one of several that feed the main drainage.

It is part of an isolated "chunk" of amazing habitat.
Next to no key habitat within 20k that compares to this pocket.
Winter range is tight.
In respect to that......the best summer range will never support more elk than what the winter range can sustain.

Appreciate it's a 6+ hr push with a light pack to this location.
No outfitter.
No one dumb enough as us to go this far back to hunt elk.

I know there are die hard elk guys out there looking at this photo and seeing it as an "elk oasis" ....and that it "was".
Tough to imagine that with the quality of habitat that the elk have yet to rebound.

Plan on going back this summer and having a snoop to see what the status is.

I am sure some are thinking that wolves merely pushed elk on from this area....
But to "where".

The wolf topic is front of mind for me again as we are picking up ever encroaching sign, here, closer to city limits, within the Okanagan valley. They are so close to the lower elevation arid sage areas of our California Bighorn.
If wolves get on to them.....expect the topic to escalate.

[yama49]

Hope it is alive and well..

[albravo2]

Nice looking country Ourea, hard to imagine it bereft of elk.

Shoot a few wolves while you're in there, will ya?

[1899]

Same thing happened to our moose spot.

[HarryToolips]

Looks like awesome elk country there Ourea....speaking of wolves in region 8, I've heard of people seeing them on the east side of Okanagan lake, but has anyone seen them on the west side of the lake??? Our Bighorn population on the Westside looks to be doing well, so like you said it would be a shame if the wolves get to them..

[Xenomorph]

To people like me Ourea these threads of yours are like fresh air, a fine scotch ...a wonderful cigar.

I'm not one to be considered a hunter yet, yeah, I got the instinct, the balls to crawl into the bear tunnel to flush him out ...but I can really call myself that yet. Despite some early success I have yet to study, walk, acquire the knowledge some of you lucky *******s have been breathing in since before you threw your first pubes. :)

As mentioned, it's refreshing, sad to see our government's inaction, but come on, did we really expect anything better of them? I was never inclined to hunt dogs and grizzly, now I'm pretty much making it a must do. If not for me, for my son to grow to experience the amazing ungulates our province still can house and grow.

Thanks for putting the effort in man.

[Ourea]

I was pondering my elk options going forward in the years to come.
Have started cutting into a few new areas in search of that magical 400 bull.
Still a yr away from completing access to hunt
Plan on scouting a few more off the radar spots.

For some reason I started reflecting about my valley and drainage system that this thread was all about.

My head was starting to spin like it often does when I process things.......

There are no unnatural factors that can affect elk populations in this area.
No roads.
No industry
Zero hunting pressure
As I rehashed things in my head I realized this is a unique situation to observe/quantify how things play out.
It's just wolves and elk.
Predator pray relationship without any unnatural variables.

With that understanding I am committed to do the 6 hr drive and 5 hr hike and drop some cams in.
There is a saddle between the two main drainages.
Quite sure just about every critter that inhabits the region passes thru here at some point.
The beauty is there is a 200 yard area where cell reception can be had.
I dropped a cell cam in there yrs ago and it managed to spit out about 20% of the pics taken.
(the wolf pics on this thread were all captured on that cell cam and successfully broadcast)

I have several cell cams.
They are far more efficient than what I was using back then.
An antenna signal booster will add a few bars so most pics should make it out

I plan on going back next year and drop in a cell cam and hanging a few more regular cams in some incredible stink pits and wallows. This should give me a pretty good understanding of how the elk are doing.

Have they returned after years of being hammered by wolves?
Are their numbers all but gone?
Is there a rebound happening....yet?

I am very curious to see how this is playing out.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/cell_zpslgsqt666.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/cell_zpslgsqt666.jpg.html)

[Rattler]

Well here's hoping they have returned.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Good luck with your continued research, Ourea!

I agree that it was most likely Wolves that caused the elk to abandon that valley but one thing to consider is that unless those elk migrate out and winter in pristine country, not many animals can completely avoid man's influence.

SSS

[HarryToolips]

All the best on your quest Ourea, i sure hope the elk have returned..

[Mitchellfried]

Your commitment to this awesome!

[adriaticum]

Maybe over grazing

[Husky7mm]

Maybe over grazing

In the high country, I think that is impossible.

[Bugle M In]

In the high country, I think that is impossible.

x2........................

[358mag]

Maybe over grazing
Hasn't ever been a cow in that valley .

[Bugle M In]

Good luck with your continued research, Ourea!

I agree that it was most likely Wolves that caused the elk to abandon that valley but one thing to consider is that unless those elk migrate out and winter in pristine country, not many animals can completely avoid man's influence.

SSS

From what I've read, elk are migrating out during winter, but not migrating back up in Spring/Summer...
most likely due to Preds like Wolf.

Sad part is, now we are shooting them off in zonex areas (ranchland), because they aren't migrating back up into alpine.

Wolves will die out in time, but what will be left of the elk to re-establish/re-populate their past traditional areas, the scree
slopes/sub alpine country, where food is 4x more nutritious for them, than it is on ranchland/lowland areas.

And, how long will that take....might be too late for me, as I ain't that young anymore...

Interested to see what your Cams will show, and appreciate you sharing the info to us....thanks.

[Ourea]

Maybe over grazing

No

To repeat.....
No roads, no cattle, no low level agriculture, no logging within 15 miles- even then it is extremely limited due to the extreme nature of the country. It's not logged or hunted for a reason.
I don't think you have picked up on or understand how remote this chunk of real estate is with next to no private land in the meager winter range.
I do not hunt elk like the average guy.

[adriaticum]

I don't mean cows. I mean elk. They live in herds and maybe its just part of the natural cycle. They eat, they move on to greener pastures and they come back later.
But then again I don't have the opportunity to do what you do so I'm just theorizing with generic animal behaviour

[Ourea]

I don't mean cows. I mean elk. They live in herds and maybe its just part of the natural cycle. They eat, they move on to greener pastures and they come back later.
But then again I don't have the opportunity to do what you do so I'm just theorizing with generic animal behaviour

This isn't a situation, to which one can sit back, well removed, and theorize on a behavioral aspect of a given species.
I know my targets well.....the habitat in which I focus on and find them in.
When I see a dramatic shift in numbers and behavior, I take note and further quantify.

My time in the field and duration yr round is considerable in the areas I hunt.
There is next to zero speculation.
It's all about documented field time and endless cam intel

Wolves.....their impact on a specific area....that what this thread is about.
I am trying to further document and share my observations.

Ur comment is appreciated, but is somewhat rudimentary, given ur absence of field time and no understanding of the area.

[Pemby_mess]

I was pondering my elk options going forward in the years to come.
Have started cutting into a few new areas in search of that magical 400 bull.
Still a yr away from completing access to hunt
Plan on scouting a few more off the radar spots.

For some reason I started reflecting about my valley and drainage system that this thread was all about.

My head was starting to spin like it often does when I process things.......

There are no unnatural factors that can affect elk populations in this area.
No roads.
No industry
Zero hunting pressure
As I rehashed things in my head I realized this is a unique situation to observe/quantify how things play out.
It's just wolves and elk.
Predator pray relationship without any unnatural variables.



Curious, is your valley or anywhere around it, popular with sleds in the Winter?

[scotty30-06]

Now there's a good question ^^^^.....wonder how far out of lower mainland would get me into some great wolf hunting opportunity?

[Headsup]

Wolves and hunters eat from the same cookie jar, eventually the cookie jar empties. However we can limit the amount of hunters who harvest by means of LEH, but the only way to limit the amount wolves take is by predator control. People who believe the predator numbers and ungulate numbers coincide with one another are correct, but with the ever growing roads and access for hunters, combined with the number of hunters out there, plus predator population, animals in areas that were once plenty, are being wiped out. For every ungulate someone shoots, I would ask they shoot a predator, otherwise your just taking another cookie from the cookie jar.

[.264winmag]

Wolves and hunters eat from the same cookie jar, eventually the cookie jar empties. However we can limit the amount of hunters who harvest by means of LEH, but the only way to limit the amount wolves take is by predator control. People who believe the predator numbers and ungulate numbers coincide with one another are correct, but with the ever growing roads and access for hunters, combined with the number of hunters out there, plus predator population, animals in areas that were once plenty, are being wiped out. For every ungulate someone shoots, I would ask they shoot a predator, otherwise your just taking another cookie from the cookie jar.

In this case, I'm just guessing, but if it's a 6 point only area even if you shot off every 6 point the herd would still continue on. Wolves hunt 24/7/365 and have no regulations! Hunting pressure I doubt has any affect on this remote area, and would venture the same in many areas. Just look at the wt doe draw, filthy buggers still
thrive if they can stay away from predators the rest of the year. You say we take from same cookie jar, I say we are lucky to clean up the crumbles left behind, in many cases...

[Ourea]

Curious, is your valley or anywhere around it, popular with sleds in the Winter?


No, not at all

[Ourea]

Wolves and hunters eat from the same cookie jar, eventually the cookie jar empties. However we can limit the amount of hunters who harvest by means of LEH, but the only way to limit the amount wolves take is by predator control. People who believe the predator numbers and ungulate numbers coincide with one another are correct, but with the ever growing roads and access for hunters, combined with the number of hunters out there, plus predator population, animals in areas that were once plenty, are being wiped out. For every ungulate someone shoots, I would ask they shoot a predator, otherwise your just taking another cookie from the cookie jar.

The entire MU has single digit so harvest is a non factor in this area.
Once there is much snow on the ground you cannot access.
It is a 5 to 6 hr hike to the fringe.
Pred hunting is not practical as a result

[wiggy]

I feel for you and get it. I no longer hike into a back basin looking for bulls. Wolves wiped them out or pushed them out a few years ago. The elk just aren't there anymore
Bull I took this year was from a area I would never normally hunt
Just not a area I really enjoy hunting but I know the elk have moved in there
I'm not hunting there for a brute just a good legal bull
Easy pickings actually but those elk are not migrating where they used to
Whats it going to take for the govt to wake up.
Last year moose hunting on a draw in 330 I was sickened by the wolf population
As for the sheep pop in the Ok I hate to say it but it's just time till a pack moves in.
'That's all it will take and 20 years of conservation will be wiped out
I hope you find another honey pot
I have heard in the wind of a couple areas I'm gonna start exploring. No access no ranching no logging
Couple quiet mouthed dudes who stumbled onto something.

[Ourea]

A friend of mine bumped into my old back pack hunting partner who hunted the valley this fall.
I was surprised that he is still going back despite the bleak circumstances surrounding the elk populations.


Long story short......

5 day hunt.
Zero elk spotted or heard.
Wolf sign was heavy.

Some of the stink pits that are usually a barn yard for elk were void of activity.

Wolves gotta eat.
Which leads one to think , what is their prey if the area appears to be all but void of elk.
An option that must be considered is that the few remaining elk have completely abandoned the prime habitat and modified their behavior to simply survive.....which makes them virtually unhuntable.

Again, wolves gotta eat.
Have to admit this recent update from my old hunting partner has me scratching my head.

[HarryToolips]

^^^anyway you can set a trapline in there to take out some wolves?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sadly, from the sounds of things, your valley is not an isolated incident, Ourea.

I know wolves will prey on black bears during the winter when other above ground food sources are thinned out.
I know of at least one East Koot outfitter that gave up on spring black bear hunting a couple years ago.
Not sure if wolves have been known to go after grizzlies in their dens or not??

SSS

[Bugle M In]

A friend of mine bumped into my old back pack hunting partner who hunted the valley this fall.
I was surprised that he is still going back despite the bleak circumstances surrounding the elk populations.


Long story short......

5 day hunt.
Zero elk spotted or heard.
Wolf sign was heavy.

Some of the stink pits that are usually a barn yard for elk were void of activity.

Wolves gotta eat.
Which leads one to think , what is their prey if the area appears to be all but void of elk.
An option that must be considered is that the few remaining elk have completely abandoned the prime habitat and modified their behavior to simply survive.....which makes them virtually unhuntable.

Again, wolves gotta eat.
Have to admit this recent update from my old hunting partner has me scratching my head.

I don't know about scratching your head, but shaking your head comes more to mind.
It is a sad situation for sure.
Another thread just started by FindlyFlats, tells of an Outfitter I know, who is up for sale or sold.
Reason being....no clients....probably safe to assume....no elk.

[horshur]

A friend of mine bumped into my old back pack hunting partner who hunted the valley this fall.
I was surprised that he is still going back despite the bleak circumstances surrounding the elk populations.


Long story short......

5 day hunt.
Zero elk spotted or heard.
Wolf sign was heavy.

Some of the stink pits that are usually a barn yard for elk were void of activity.

Wolves gotta eat.
Which leads one to think , what is their prey if the area appears to be all but void of elk.
An option that must be considered is that the few remaining elk have completely abandoned the prime habitat and modified their behavior to simply survive.....which makes them virtually unhuntable.

Again, wolves gotta eat.
Have to admit this recent update from my old hunting partner has me scratching my head.

do a search of Kyle Knopff work..wolf #s per km2 are dependant on the sum of the biomas which Is a lot more then just elk. Whitetail deer,moose ,beaver.

[Ourea]

do a search of Kyle Knopff work..wolf #s per km2 are dependant on the sum of the biomas which Is a lot more then just elk. Whitetail deer,moose ,beaver.

Fully understand and thanks for the comment.
Pred/prey dynamics 101

The area has next to no moose.
Low MD density
Moderate WT numbers in the marginal mid to lower level habitat.
Beaver - zero, unless they like living on 45 degree slopes.

This is why I am scratching my head

[speycaster]

Wolves and hunters eat from the same cookie jar, eventually the cookie jar empties. However we can limit the amount of hunters who harvest by means of LEH, but the only way to limit the amount wolves take is by predator control. People who believe the predator numbers and ungulate numbers coincide with one another are correct, but with the ever growing roads and access for hunters, combined with the number of hunters out there, plus predator population, animals in areas that were once plenty, are being wiped out. For every ungulate someone shoots, I would ask they shoot a predator, otherwise your just taking another cookie from the cookie jar.

So for every ungulate shot , I should shoot a hunter. I like that idea, surefire population control and less hormones in the water.:-P

[Seeker]

A friend of mine bumped into my old back pack hunting partner who hunted the valley this fall.
I was surprised that he is still going back despite the bleak circumstances surrounding the elk populations.


Long story short......

5 day hunt.
Zero elk spotted or heard.
Wolf sign was heavy.

Some of the stink pits that are usually a barn yard for elk were void of activity.

Wolves gotta eat.
Which leads one to think , what is their prey if the area appears to be all but void of elk.
An option that must be considered is that the few remaining elk have completely abandoned the prime habitat and modified their behavior to simply survive.....which makes them virtually unhuntable.

Again, wolves gotta eat.
Have to admit this recent update from my old hunting partner has me scratching my head.

We have spent two weeks in the East koots over the last 3 years and have been in areas that my father just 25 years ago, tells us stories of "elk a plenty". We were goat hunting in remote valleys, 5+kms from the vehicles in grassy avalanche paths, country that screamed elk, and we ran across 1 area of fresh sign. We hiked up three separate valleys. We found old wallows with crystal clear water and not a patch of upturned turf. Completely void of any elk sign. No tracks, rubs or stink. The one or two areas we found any elk sign were on slopes we could reach out and touch ground in front of us; very steep. It would appear to me the elk have done just as you have claimed, moved to areas that make them almost impossible to hunt. A few others have stayed in areas close to human habituation where wolves do not frequent. Needless to say, in that area there are more hunters than elk. Its sad, as my dad lights up at the campfire telling us of his glory days, but I told him this year, I will be going elsewhere next year because I would like to at least see an elk at some point. When I left the small town I grew up in, the wolves were just gaining a strong hold. That was 25 years ago. It appears we are approaching the low point in that cycle.

[Bugle M In]

We have spent two weeks in the East koots over the last 3 years and have been in areas that my father just 25 years ago, tells us stories of "elk a plenty". We were goat hunting in remote valleys, 5+kms from the vehicles in grassy avalanche paths, country that screamed elk, and we ran across 1 area of fresh sign. We hiked up three separate valleys. We found old wallows with crystal clear water and not a patch of upturned turf. Completely void of any elk sign. No tracks, rubs or stink. The one or two areas we found any elk sign were on slopes we could reach out and touch ground in front of us; very steep. It would appear to me the elk have done just as you have claimed, moved to areas that make them almost impossible to hunt. A few others have stayed in areas close to human habituation where wolves do not frequent. Needless to say, in that area there are more hunters than elk. Its sad, as my dad lights up at the campfire telling us of his glory days, but I told him this year, I will be going elsewhere next year because I would like to at least see an elk at some point. When I left the small town I grew up in, the wolves were just gaining a strong hold. That was 25 years ago. It appears we are approaching the low point in that cycle.

Same here!....
Although, this season I did have some Bugling (hadn't in the last 2 seasons before)
Did appear that Wolf sign was less this time...maybe they were in another zone of the watershed?
I remember driving thru Kootenay Crossing in the Park one evening (way back in the Glory Days),
you could have slapped elk on the cheek, by sticking your hand out the window.......must have been
between 50 and 100 of them along the drive.....not any longer, even with that large burn!(it should be prime
habitat now, but from my understanding....no change, and you can't hunt the wolves in that park).
If in fact Elk #'s are way down (and I believe they are), it is going to take Years! for the elk to come back,
and that is if they still remember how to get back to the high country by that point??
I hope some serious action is taken very very soon, by the ministry.
And I don't mean closing the season......
So much for the 6pt rule making Elk replenish.
Only people happy on that issue was the GO's....."oh, the trophy elk our clients will be able to obtain"!
So....where are those trophies......???
Also ran into more winter/early spring killed elk and moose....and they didn't look like they died from old age.